Get involved. See Rabbi Noah Weinberg do his best Jackie Mason impression. Help stop the "Spiritual Holocaust." I see the Aishsters learned well; Substitute Rosh Yeshivah for Rebbe, and you have an improved Chabad with better looking Rabbis. Maybe Chabad should consider the clean-shaven Shliach look too?
From Reb Chaim HaQoton: Incidentally, I also learned from the wiki that the Director of Audio and Music for the BBC is a granddaughter of Rav Chatzkel Abramsky.
I don't get the whole Aish trip... what does memorializing the Holocaust have anything to do with people Freying out and losing touch with religion. Why did the Rosh Yeshiva have to take them to death camps to understand assimilation?
ReplyDeleteI can understand if they want to take a trip to Poland, but there's some faulty logic in their purpose.
I'm not sure about their Auschwitz story. When I was there they told us that gas chamber #3 was exploded because the Russian were invading the camp and they wanted to conceal the evidence of genocide.
ReplyDeleteI was pleasantly surprised when I checked out Aish in the old city.
ReplyDeleteThe bais Medrish was full with over a hundred young men learning Gemura. If only chabad would teach their B.T’s authentic Judaism instead of watered down JLI courses.
What is your problem with Aish Hatorah? Why do you negate what they are doing?
ReplyDeleteMy problem with Aish haTorah is that they engage in incessant fundraising, and offer few services to those to whom they claim to reach out.
ReplyDeleteMy problem with Tzig is that he just parrots the party line.He is a relative newcomer to Lubavitch, joining around the time the Rebbe took ill or a year or two prior to that.Still he seems ready to criticize (and lets call a spade a spade, badmouth)people he does not know.Does he know Rabbi Noach Weinberg?Did he know Rav Shach? Did he know the other people on his 'hit list'?NO.So he is just a parrot.BUT see now, ess past far a yingel a yingeh boocher, not for a married yingerman with cheider attending kids.
ReplyDeleteCan't you think for yourself, can't you not 'kai ibber' the same rubbish over and over again?
Do you seriously not realize that you are turning people off from Lubavitch?I would know, because, though I had a favourable outlook on Lubavitch bichlal,I'm getting turned off.You''ll tayna that the Tzig is one guy.True, but I see the Lubavitcher posters are quite cool with his basic theme of bashing other Jews, basically all the time and to be honest something really turned me off seeing a chasidishe guy posting this stuff around Tisho beov.Also the mad post about suddenly claiming that belief in Yoshkeh is not a problem, just to farentfer a misguided Lubavitch group is way off base.
dd,
ReplyDeleteAre you kidding me? Comparing what goes on in a movement's Ikar Beis Medrash with Kiruv classes?? Have you ever gone to an Aish kiruv class? Ein Lecha watered down godol mizeh! (Not that there's anything wrong with that. JLI has quite a lot of toichen, considering its kiruv goals.)
the accent tzig, is not JM. it's the accent of a brooklynese "salismahn"
ReplyDeleteYehupitz
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!
That's the common sense comment of the day. Thank You again.
DD
ReplyDeleteCheck out Mayanot next time you're in Jerusalem and watch 'our' yunger men shtayg away!
(You can stop by many of the other ba'al teshuvah yeshivas that chabad runs while you're a it too)
I have a problem with the unmitigated gall of Noah Weinberg. Here we have a self-described "kid" of 15 years old traveling around the US, eating G-d knows what, and lambasting every other group out there, saying that there was nothing being done to bring Jews back to their heritage. Only a little pisher from Brooklyn wanted to do something! By the time he went to Israel in 1954, and when he said there was NOBODY doing ANYTHING there was in fact plenty being done. There was Lubavitch, Torah Umesorah, and NCSY had just begun. He still continues to trumpet his group as the only ones, and his stooges do the same; waxing poetic about the Rosh Yeshivah being the only one who cares.
ReplyDeleteAishsters: stop it already.
Lubavitch converts to Lubavitch, their obsession with the Rebbe. Very little to do judaism, per se.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous- Aish converts to Aish... Sameach converts to Sameach... YU converts to YU... Breslov converts to Breslov...
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you noticed, but recently Judaism has become very fringed. There is no such thing as a no-frills Judaism anymore.
No matter where you end up, you pick up a party line and some of the local Minhagim.
>>No matter where you end up, you pick up a party line and some of the local Minhagim.
ReplyDeleteAish gets along with Bresolv which has no particular issue with Lubavitch. They pretty much believe in the same thing. Lubavitch places its Rebbe on a pedastal that no other faction of religious Jewry could possibly accept. They don't look to him as God Himself (and there are many out there in Lubavitch who do) or as the greatest talmid chochom who ever lived or even the greatest tzadik who ever lived. We simply, if that is the correct word, regard him as a great man. When you prostelyze others however, you go all the way. I have seen one Lubavitcher bowing to a picture of the Rebbe! The entire issue of him being the messiah is not in our outreach program either. So, yes, we talk, we bring people in, but they are free to go to any Jewish community, learn with anyone, and love every Jew the same. You guys? Well, you love Jews so long as they don't have any issue with how far you go with your almost fanatical attachment with a now no longer living human being. And that is pretty sad. I don't think the kiruv of meshichisten counts for much. Its nice to put on tefillin (though there are some very big shailos about what the Rebbe paskened on this issue, as I am sure you know). But then these men are forced to holler that a dead man is alive!!!
That does not happen at Aish, at Ohr Someyach, at Breslov. Its unheard of.
"Aish gets along with Bresolv"
ReplyDeleteDude, what are you smoking (and where do I get some)? I know nothing about your experiences but the local Aish folks I have met view Breslov with amused contempt at best. I have heard Rebbe Nachman referred to as a "bor ve am haaretz" in those circles; not exactly the terminology used by those who "get along".
At my Aish branch, they had Breslov books but not Lubavitch ones. We were often warned against having anything to do with the local Chabad rabbis. Obviously, this is just one man's experience, though.
ReplyDeleteand the reason given to stay away was?
ReplyDelete(I would imagine the Breslov books were there only that the guys don't read it at Breslov....)
Tzig can't stand Rabbi Weinberg being referred to as ---- ---- (fill in the blank)but has no problem with the way folks in Lubavitch refer to the Rebbe, such as omnipotent, omniscient(all knowing and all powerful)Alive and shlit'a, Nosi Hador(even to this 13 year post gimmel tammuz day)Moshiach and the wilder terms you all know.
ReplyDeleteThe guy enjoys calling the frying pan black when his own pot is the sootiest of all.
Grow up won't you?
what can I say? the guy sounds like an aluminum siding salesman. And the way those Rabbis talk about him makes my skin crawl. But that's only me.
ReplyDelete"We were often warned against having anything to do with the local Chabad rabbis."
ReplyDeleteYeah, and the local Honda dealer told me to stay away from anything made by Toyota.
Competition, my friend; good for you but lousy for the competitors.
Run Amok:
ReplyDeleteJust so in the future people don't call you a Lubavitcher bt am ho'oretz you should know that the words you used in an earlier post 'bor ve am haaretz' should be BOOR veam haaretz.Bor is a hole in the ground BOOR means the same as in English, BOTH are spelled the same in loshon kodesh
Hirshel, they said the Chabad rabbis would brainwash us, and that they didn't practice real Judaism.
ReplyDeleteCamp, your point is well taken. To Aish, outreach is big business, as schnorring is easier than going out and working for a living. But as an idealistic novice, I would have thought both groups were on the same team. Silly me.
"To Aish, outreach is big business...I would have thought both groups were on the same team."
ReplyDeleteI feel your pain. Generally speaking, kiruv is big business today (in the interest of equal time Chabad's worldwide ops. alone allegedly total just shy of $1 billion a year). Between Aish, Chabad, NCSY, etc. there is lots of competition; not a bad thin AFAIAC. However, the usual peccadillos are not far behind.
Thanks for your empathy, Camp. I understand outreach is big business for lots of groups, and I think that that is generally a good thing. One difference I have seen, and I should stress that this sampling is far too small to be scientific, as it includes myself and a small circle of spiritually-seeking friends, is that Chabad helps Jews because they are Jews and Aish helps Jews because there might be a big pay-off at the other end. Of course, my friends and I may have just had bad experiences with Aish rabbis, and good ones with Chabad ones...
ReplyDeleteNow that the 9 days-3 weeks are over, and we can shtech away again :-)...
ReplyDeleteYou have to compare apples to apples, comparing the Aish Bes Medrash to a JLI class is just silly. Mayanot Bes Medrash is full of talmidim learning, as is Aish; JLI classes are full of bare headed Jews, as are Discovery sessions.
I have been privy on occasion to JLI preparations, the writing of the course and the discussions between the actual lecturers. The lomdus in both discussions, in both Nigleh and Chassidus, was astounding. In fact, the greatest challenge seemed to be to take all of that learning, and then filter it so as not to overwhelm people.
Or were you planning on teaching your five year old child hilchos nidah?
Mr common sense AKA Hershel, Maynot is a great program but so is Aish. My cousin became religious through Aish, married an Aish Girl and sits in the Aish Kolel all day. And he still loves Chabad! You complain whenever Chabad is ignored or discredited yet you do the same exact thing.
ReplyDeletegurevitzer, I can't argue with the truth. Hershel was so blindly hypocritical, it got me wound up.
DD
P.S I didn’t yet hear of an Aish Rabbi (let alone chief rabbi of a country) who married a grusha to a cohen.
Hirshel is blinded by the hate they fed him when he became a Lubavitcher.As the saying goes 'ah gevorener iz erger vi a geboirener'
ReplyDeleteAish is this that and the other.Whatever can be said about Aish can be said about Chabad, I almost fell off the chair when someone 'accused' Aish of doing kiruv for the 'big money', man that's exactly what some people say about Chabad!
The truth is:There are good people in both groups and there are others who need to work on themselves and yet others who should not be in kiruv at all.
"what can I say? the guy sounds like an aluminum siding salesman. And the way those Rabbis talk about him makes my skin crawl. But that's only me."
ReplyDeleteIs anyone else astounded by this statement? This is the exact same thing people say about Lubovitch. How is it any different? Because the Rebbe is the REAL godol hador but this rosh yeshiva is just a faker? Everything posted in these comments slamming Aish (ie: that they warn people away from other kiruv groups or that they are only after money) is EXACTLY what other people say about Chabad.
It's sad and pathetic that this is what outreach has become. A contest to see who can 'get the most'.
the Rebbe is The Rebbe, Godol HaDor" or not. Rabbi Weinberg is a nice guy, I'm sure, but please let's not put him in the league of even Reb Elya Ber from Fallsburg.
ReplyDeleteI'm guilty as charged.
Lubavitch has been discredited openly for all with any basic sense of right and wrong:When they started the Moshiach campaign they were told that it's ill advised-Am Yisroel had always suffered greatly when Jews tried to 'force' Hashems 'hand' so to speak.When that advice was born out, after the Rebbes passing did they stop?No!They started a new movement denying the Rebbes passing!How's that for a 'rational argument'??
ReplyDeleteInstead of realizing than that it was not what/who Hashem wanted they continue vaiter till this day.
The funny/sad thing is that you have misguided and hateful individuals like Tzig continuing to attack us for not being 'mekabel' the Lubavitcher ways.
This brainwashing by Lubavitch becomes so infantile that you see grown men prepared to bad mouth their deceased moms for the 'good' of their movement.(I'm referring to an infantile post by The Tzig regarding some 'eideleah, chshuveh' Lubavitcher convert who turned his deceased mother into a foolish manipulative woman so an esteemed talmid chochom non Lubavitch, could be made to seem 'bad'.His own mother!!Like the Russian kid who turns his own dad in for Stalins sake)
Just a side note:It always seem so immature to see grown Lubavitcher men, with long beards, something that many Jews associate with knowledge and maturity, donning those colorful Yechi Hamelech yarmulkehs not even appropriate for kids.Still the Tzig and his brainwashed chevra want us to join the 'shekirim' party.
One last note about the Sukka issue.
The Rebbe was a brilliant man who has left mountains of Torah works, discourses and correspondence.Now even gifted people have better and worse moments and biases.Someone who has da'as-knowledge knows not to use a mistaken week argument as 'proof' of scholarship.Unfortunately Lubavitch is more cult like and views everyword of the Rebbe as equal so they will use week works as proof(small example:In one of Hirshels attempts to put some Torah input into this blog he quoted a 'brilliant and inspiring' sicha who's toichen was:How was Hashem 'allowed' to destroy the Bais Hamikdosh since Hashem keeps the Torah and there is a prohibition in the Torah for that:The answer:One may break down the Bais Hamikdosh to rebuild it better and the third bais hamikdosh will be infinitely better.I hope I don't need to tell most people that the level of this discourse in not very high and the whole premise of the question very shaky, yet the Tzig sees this as a brilliant example and could find nothing better)
The basic premise of the Rebbe that one who feels no 'tsa'ar' from sleeping in the sukka and than would be obliged to sleep there, since after all, there is a clear cut chiyuv of teishvu ke'in toduru and even 'sheinas arai' catnapping, is ossur outside of the sukka as opposed to eating which is permissable if it's insignificant, is still pottur, since he aspires to feel the sanctification and be like his rebbe who does, therefore he has 'tsaar' that he does not have 'tsaar'!!How can the logic be more convoluted?This 'sevoro' has not passed muster with anybody besides Lubavitchers, who had no idea why I could not understand such an easy 'idea'!Besides the fact that it's factually untrue, most chasidim would manage fine sleeping in the sukka and wait, where is the 'messirus nefesh'??!!
'The Rebbe is the Rebbe godol hador or not'
ReplyDeleteWhat does this mean?
The guy was just telling you, Hirshel, that what you allow yourself to say about R'Weinberg others allow themselves to say about the Rebbe.Therefore(and read this s-l-o-w-l-y,please)what is your complaint to those critical of Lubavitch,IF YOU YOURSELF DO THE SAME THING?!!!
(All this despite your never meeting R'Weinberg)
Remember,if you are 'allowed' to badmouth criticize other rabbonim, because ---- ---- fill in the blanks, others are 'allowed' the same liberty.
Answer that without going off on a tangent.
"the Rebbe is The Rebbe, Godol HaDor"
ReplyDeleteAnd Rav Weinberg is Rav Weinburg.
And Chacham Ovadia Yosef is Chacham Ovadia Yosef
And Rav Shach is Rav Shach.
What is your point? All you're doing is playing into the allegations that Lubovitch bashes all other rabbonim but is horrified when someone says anything referring to The Rebbe (tm).
If its abhorrent to say unkind things of the Rebbe, then such should be the case with Rav Weinberg or any other Chacham. Any behavior to the contrary is a double standard and ridiculous to anyone, religious or not, on the outside looking in.
anonymous 256
ReplyDeleteYou took my words out of context. I said godol hador OR NOT.
You're right, the quote is cut off. Godol hador shouldn't be in there, however the point still stands.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't you answer the question.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you 'allowed' the liberty of attacking rabonim, case in point Rabbi Noah Weinberg, while anybody who 'dares' criticize Lubavitch is a 'hater'
Do unto others what you want done to yourself.
Part of my problems with Lubavitch, beyond the obvious, such as the Long live the Rebbe crowd, is THIS PROBLEM.I can never make them understand that if they think they can call Rav Shach all the very, very horrid names they can ,they should not be surprised if others do the same to them.This is just one example.Another one:For example when you speak to them about 'cholov stam'.Now, I personally try to use cholov yisroel when possible, but isn't R'Moshe Feinstein who was good enough for life and death questions good enough about his more lenient ruling regarding cholov stam??(I'm not getting into this specific question, there could be other issues today, such as cholov treifa etc)Why do they not understand that with all due respect to their leaders, we have our leaders and rabbonim?
If they have a whole lomdus about 'keivan denofak mepiv derav hakana' we are also allowed that luxury?From where have they decided that the Rebbe is Nosi Hador?That means your king....Did they ask me before they appointed him as MY king?Did they ask the majority of am yisroel.No! But they still decided for us who our Nosi is.I'm not even going into the outright nonsense of a deceased person being a Nosi and by force!
B'kitser,Lubavitch does good and bad and mediocre and it's time they realized that you are better going WITH klal yisroel than on your own treachrous path!
They don't WANT to. That's the problem. See the conversation I am having with someone two posts below who so far suggested he is greater than Rav Shach.
ReplyDeleteAll I can tell you guys is that I am not affilliated with either group. In fact, I am a spiritual seeker who has not yet had the ability to become religious for various reasons. Without getting into the relevant merits of either movement, because quite frankly I am unqualified to do that, I can say that for my friends and I, Aish acted manipulatively and served as a turn-off to Judaism, while Chabad acted in the opposite way. Of course, these are generalizations, but like all good ones, they are by and large, accurate.
ReplyDeleteSee the review/response on my blog.
ReplyDeleteanon 6:08. You can find people who say the exact same thing about Chabad. You can't characterize a movement by the actions of a small sample, especially since small communities attract the crazies and megolomanics.
ReplyDeleteAs they say at Southwest Airlines "$10 fares gets you $10 people". Small, out of town communities, tend to get '$10'-read: not the greatest-of rabbonim.
anon 11:55. I can find people who say anything about anything, which neither proves nor disproves my point. What I wrote of though is not what I heard, but what happened to me. And while I could try to get a larger sampling of Aish rabbis, I have neither the time nor the inclination to compound bad experiences with more of the same. I will say this, though: I hardly consider a metropolitan area of more than two and a half million people to be small. It's out-of-town status, while incontrovertible, didn't seem to hamper the Chabad rabbis in the same locale.
ReplyDeleteI had a bade experiecne with lubavitchers. I still love 'em anyway.
ReplyDelete