"The Biggest Aron Kodesh in the World"
"Gevezener Belzer" commenting on Circus Tent: Satmar Revising History, Belz on the Warpath:
Klainer, I was waiting for that canard. Not for the Ruv past nisht kayn heimishe chazerayen, primitive chasidishe shtiblech of a few rickety tables and benches, fluorescent bulbs, brass chandeliers and at best some marble panelling and oron koidesh. Nah, the Ruv has taste. He has an ear for music, an eye for art and architecture, a palate for fine wines and Scotch whisky, a nose for exotic flora and not to mention the intellect to comprehend theories of aesthetics from Aristotle to Jackson Pollock. Unzer Rebbe is not just versed in toirath ha'bal shem - he is a renaissance man. That's what they hired Osher Lustigman (no yetzer hore for him to defect to a chasidus he wasn't born into) to sell to the youngsters, and Mechel Halberstam (before the Stalinist purges) to the equally immature adults.
Well, let me disabuse you: the wonderful Beith Hamedrash has little by way of architectural merit. Gehry, Liebskind and Foster are unlikely to be queuing arantsigein for a masterclass in architecture and the Ruv wouldn't be advised to give up his day job just yet. Yes, the building makes a grand statement perched as it is on a hill top as you come into Yerushalayim, but like its creator is great in size, makes a lot of noise, sticks itself in front of your face whether you like it or not but has little in substance and even less to please. It may also be impressive in terms of what one is used to seeing in chasidishe shuls until you get a bit closer and see that it is built with no consideration for scale, proportion or surrounding. It is stuck in the middle of residential buildings simply because that is where the ruv decreed that it go. Get even closer and read the sign and you wonder why it is even called a shil if the boss himself calls it in supermodern parlance a 'merkaz oilomi'. Scientologists with their "International Headquarters" could take a tip or two.
Enter the place and you really get to see how it mirrors the confusion of its creator. No central scheme or plan, staircases going everywhere and nowhere, huge areas of space one would expect in exhibition halls and train stations but not in a house of prayer, darkened memorial room, all monuments to rebellion that has no outlet and ambition constrained in the dike gartel. For this the Ruv had to go to see Venetian shuls, in lange hoizen apparently, and architects were left gaping at his vast expertise. Yes, and Mona Rosenblum was left gaping at his vast musical knowledge and for that we have Brich Shmey and Ato Nigleiso.
Then there is the Beis Hamedrash itself. Vast in space but, the oron koidesh apart, little to admire. (Please tell him the new pastel blue is ghastly.) You deride the "Hisachdus endorsed faux wood panelling" so pray tell us who commissioned, and who could commission, those brash chandeliers if not some Magyar ember? Or perhaps a Russian oligarch with similar refined tastes. Though if those hour-long songs that made our feet swell are the epitome of musical composition then the Beis Hamedrash must trump the best of Romanesque, Baroque and Gothic if not entirely some Dubai monstrosity or 3rd world airport terminal.
Yet this, plus the mevines in acoustics is also not enough. When his royal highness decided he can't get his shoes dirty to get to the tish he butchered his own edifice by installing a bridge for him to cross without having to mingle with the plebs. Even a whole range of shtiblech and botei midroshim of his own creation only a shrayim's throw away with a bridge to get him there is not enough. No, within his house he needed yet another supermarket style shil the size that would satisfy many a B class beneshek.
Let him serve his rebbishe visitors tea in bone china cups and saucers rather than a chanyokisher lechayim in a silver beaker, let him parade round town in sneakers and not in fertl shich, consume vegetable soup at Friday night tish and apple juice at shaleshides but don't complain when others choose to see him for what he is. A vainglorious dictator who wouldn't put Baby Doc Duvalier to shame if given only half the chance.
Admiring his work in the Great Courtyard
81 comments:
(comment moved from "Belzer warpath" post)
Klainer, I have to get some work done too and I can't afford a comment like the last one every evening. I hoped to be able to produce 10 changes in nusach but since I'm miles away from a Belzer shtibl to check out his Authorised Version siddur I can only come up with 5 from memory. I'm sure they can cite a source for each of them just as the devil can cite
scriptures for his purpose. However, kol hameshane yodoi al hatachtoino and it is perfectly legitimate to query why he must lay his grubby paws on everything that is dear to generations of people and why his obscure sources are preferable to established and canonised nuscho'ois.
Anyway, here they are:
1. Al _yedei_ in the first passage of kedusha.
2. Deletion of 'Seloh' at the end of Al Horishoinim.
3. 'kodom avihoin _moro_ di vishmayo uve'aroh' in Tiskabeil of kadish sholeim.
4. Moving the stops in the yom tov krioh of parshath emoir.
5. Rearranging the positions of the refrain of shlosh esrei midoth in the slichoth passages of Neiloh.
While no. 1 is the most prominent change and designed to rival the '_vechein_ kosuv' of minhag Sanz and Satmar it is no. 5 which is nothing short of gratuitous and wanton vandalism of the holiest prayer on the holiest day with utter contempt for any view or feeling but his own. But before you accuse me of hyperbole let me explain.
Neilah is the finale of Yom Kippur when Jews the world over of every persuasion are wrapped up in emotional prayer during the culmination of the fast day. The last distraction anyone wants or needs is a rearrangement of the liturgical furniture from what is familiar through generations. Yet along comes this bulldozer and for no apparent reason drives the equivalent of his weight squared through the established nusach of this holiest of tefiloth simply to prove that he is master of all he surveys and short of walking away with your wife he can and will do just as he sees fit.
No doubt one of his many research institutes will point to a Bodleian machzor of some Alsacian bal hatoisfeth or a Sidur Rav Amrom to prove that HaRuv Tomim Po'oloi and his perfectionism for chant, accentuation, text and grammar are based on early folios, medieval tunes and ancient grammar. Never mind that this masterstroke invalidated thousands of hitherto kosher machzorim and forced his blind devotees to invest in the new officially sanctioned versions thus filling the royal coffers. It is his independence we are called upon to admire. He toes no one's line but his own, we are told, without bothering to check what it is he's hooked to the end of his cord. All we now need is a special Belzer cut for the brith, a sefer Torah 'Avodath Hashem' and like Nebuchadnezzar he can feel he's conquered even the heavens.
Aza Koved! Thanks.
BTW, I'd make the caption of the second photo 'scale 1 to 100' :-)
Hirshele, in your "about me" text you state: "The purpose of this blog was to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere. I hope I've accomplished that objective." So now you can go on and bash other chassidishe groups?
Gevezene. wow wow. I honestly recommend that you should write a book about the evolution of Chasidduth, and in particular on the roller coaster ride of Belz. It will be bestseller. Just for safety reasons I strongly recommend, that you do not use your real name, as you will be on every dictator's most wanted list, with a big bounty on your head. The wardens at the Agrifas academy must have been flogged for allowing such talent like yourself escape the barracks.
I just have a number of reservations on your observations. I think that you give to much credit to the Chief, Is there not a guy called Ostreicher who was the main architect? You also forgot to mentioned the mega marble Menorah mounted on the outside wall, which makes the puzzled tourist ask the guide to double check if we are at a chasiddisce shul or at the Israeli Knesset. The chief was probably thinking if this makes Reb Sholem Brander zl (a newbie like klanier has probably never heard of him) and the rest of the old school toss in their graves, so be it.
BTW I have noticed on the latest pictures, that the Ruv has switched from the traditional brown kolpik, to some giant ugly black spodik. Are we witnessing an identity crisis or is it simply that the ruv has decided to refresh his wardrobe.
Klainer
It is clear from your ignorance of the Ruv's messing around with our heilge sidur that you are a total newbie to Belz. It is the most taboo subject in Belz. Ask any Belzer with just a strike of common sense, and is not just a clone of the Belzer propaganda Machine, ask him vos is pshat a me shpeilt miten sidur and you will see him shifting nervously and do every thing to change the conversation. It a well reversed dictatorial tact, how to manipulate the masses, to take everything holy and dear to them and mess around with that.
Who dose he think he is? the Bal shem tov, the Vilna Gaon, The Chasam Sofer, his holy Zeides zua, they all did not know the proper nussach, it was only to his royal highness King Reb Ber the second that the true nussach was revealed!!
Listen here, if you are looking for a Rebbe go to Skulen, Amshnov, Tosh, Racmestrivka, and a handful of others theses are the real deal, and if you have a soft spot for a dictator I would any day choose Castro or Chavez, they have shown much more originality than your Tzadik.
Is there a difference between an ungarishe belzer and a galitzysne belzr?
Is their faith in the rebbe different?
Kudos to the Belzer Ruv for creating a chusid of your caliber.
There must be a lot of Belzer chasidim that are aware of Voltaire, Gehry and Duvalier. If not there would be a chance that you would be outed. Others have suggested that you protect your identity for the fear of violence, therefore you must feel that this possibility does not exist as there are many like you.
HT why host belz bashing from this rabid hater and still make a special post for it??
leo
let me see you stand up against bashing of other Rebbes and then we'll talk, ok?
Belz is amazing in that he has made a chassidus out of the exact opposite of what Belz was about until then......
Rather than keeping old minhagim, they 'rewrote the book', rather than turning away from gashmiyus, they embrace it, rather than have a Rebbe who repudiates 'sifrei chutz' their rebbe is known for his worldly knowledge more than his torah knoweledge etc....
The only question was how much of their malchus had added to the chassidish world, or have they merely stolen chassidim from everyone else (which is why they would hate R' Kluger).
Then they get nasty when people accuse them of being unlike the Belz of old, or questions the greatness of their grand rabbi.
It is easy to see why the 'real deal' go to Belz Machnivke.....anyone who has been to him will see what he sells BELZ...old school....
First of all, I am truly impressed at the writings of Gevezener. Wow! Who would've thought that a (former) Belzer - who is so knowledgable about most things in belz - hoyo vehoveh - could write like such an eductaed and intelligent person.
There can't be too many like that.
(But are you a "chassidisher" Gevezener or actually a "moderner' who has historic Belz connections via family?)
Regarding the Belz Beis Hamikdosh it always reminds me of the Yerushalmi Peah:
ירושלמי פאה דף לז,ב פרק ח הלכה ח
ר' חמא בר חנינא ור' הושעיא הוון מטיילו באילין כנישתא דלוד
א"ר חמא בר חנינא לר' הושעיא כמה ממון שיקעו אבותי כאן
א"ל כמה נפשות שקעו אבותיך כאן לא הוון בני נשא דילעון באורייתא
And on another matter which I haven't noticed being raised here yet.
The letter "Reish".
AFAIK, all Jews who can, and that is most of us who live in ChuL and many yoshvei EY pronounce it using their tongue - as "rrr".
Seems that a lot of Israelis can't do so thus they pronounce it with a guttural "Ches" - coming from the throat..
The Belzer obviously has always had this issue - which of course is not of his own making. But what I have noticed is that many of his chassidim who grew up saying the Reish correctly - once they go to his yeshiva or become fully-fledged members begin to imitate their rebbe's speech impediment.
One could say that it is a naarishe childish shvatzonus. But how does that go in tandem with the rebbe's idea of ensuring that davening and nussach hatefilah should be 'perfected'? Doesn't this contradict and put the lie on the whole enterprise?
Yelamdenu raboseinu...
Deleting seloh is a throwback to the original ashkenaz. I cannot think of any sources for the rest offhand.
The Belzer Beis Hamkidash is hideous.
One thing I can tell you that he DID do a good job in, is the Mikve, he's definitely got the most geshmaker Mikva in the area..,
I mean the other 2 comparable ones; Tzans & Chabad, are just so much dirtier and uglier..
So as far as the Mikva goes, I got'to commend him, I think they did a superb job, although if they would've made it less expensive it would be even better (but the Tzans & Chabad are both as or more expansive..)!
I think Lubavitch is lucky that Gevezener Belzer is not Gevezener Lubavitcher.
If that was the case he would have a lot more material..............
Gevezener we could talk till we are blue in the face. But the fact is while most chassidim walk around aimlessly not feeling like they belong to anything more then what they were born into, in Belz every narishe chossid walks around with his head held high because of their beautiful edfice and what they percieve too be their rebbes far reaching and open minded thinking. So even if you can critique evey prat the fact is the overall end result is that the rebbe has accomplished!
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/11/the-edifice-com.html
The edifice complex
Why do banks spend so much money on marble lobbies, high ceilings and yes, $400 million to name a baseball stadium?
Why do marketers buy TV ads that don't increase sales in the short run?
Why have a receptionist and not just a house phone where you can call the person you came to see?
For the same reason that so many people have a green front lawn.
It's organized waste. Profligate spending designed to communicate confidence and just a bit of hubris.
Do you really want to invest money at a bank run by a guy with nothing but a bridge table and a cheap suit? Probably not. At some level, we like the confidence that we get from that big lobby. We are more likely to perk up when the reporter has her cameraman aim a huge black video camera (with lights!) at us, even though the little hand held camera might work just as well...
In times of financial stress and bailouts, the obvious solution (eliminate all the waste!) is not the one that works. In fact, in these times, we're more likely than ever to be nervous about the status of the organization we're working with.
I'd replace the expensive sponsorships and buildings with something more valuable, quicker to market and far more efficient: people. Real people, trustworthy people, honest people... people who take their time, look you in the eye, answer the phone and keep their promises. Not as easy to implement as writing a big check for the Super Bowl, but a lot more effective.
1. Edifice Complex
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Edifice%20Complex
(n.)An Edifice Complex is a serious budget-busting illness that typically manifests itself on modern college and university campuses. Soon after their inauguration, an incoming university president will frantically and feverishly fall all over themselves to relentlessly badger wealthy donors and students for the purposes of leaving a mark with their name on it on the campus by constructing a new, over-priced, prime parking lot removing, ten-story structure post-modern eyesore whose purpose is solely to house administration, their support staff, and grace the cover of university brochures and websites. Faculty and students then are given the vacated, broken down, second and third string buildings for use as classes and offices.
2. edifice complex
a keen desire of a public or educational administrator to construct a building or buildings(a pun on Oedipus complex)
Let me get this straight: You are a gevezener Belzer cause this Rebbe has verred from the heilike nusech of "Old" Belz.So you rejected the current Rebbe cause he wasn't farchnyoked genug for you and ended up...in college or university or its equivalent?Is it the heilike mesorah of Belz to master Western culture in all its fine details so as to be able to offer your fine discourse on this blog? So a person who is a fine "wordsmith" and quite adept in his usage of the English[goyishe] language appoints himself as the great kanoi who is "oiser zich" that the Rebbe tampered with the heiliker Belzer Nusech.Everyone knows that Belz was the most reactionary and unyielding chasidus when it came to haskalah and anything connected to the non-Jewish world. So the Belzer Ruv is compared to Nevuchadnezzer
Horoshe ym'sh because of "seloh" and changing the "stops"in leyening but you the kanoi who is conversant with the latest developments in goyishe and enlightened culture-you are the true talmid of the Maharid and all the old yoshvim in OLD Belz? For a man like yourself, steeped in all the finer details of decadent, Western culture-the current Belzer Rov is not frum enough?A talmid of Chochmas Yovon compares the Ruv to rotzchim and degenerates? The ruv is ridiculed because he is interested in history and kisvei-yodos? Did the aforementioned Reb Sholom B. z'l suggest you subscribe to the Sunday Times as well?
Your offering should be labelled appropriately-good old fashioned character assassination..
We have now answered Tzigs original q: Lubavitchers dont move over to other Rebbes/Chassiduths because they had the ultimate: no wild bekiches, or trips to Miami/Palm Springs. No ungainlyFriday night tishes where you marvel of the spectacle of the Tsaddik yesod olam stuffs his face with challah? If someone in Chabad moves it is because of their yetzer harah and unfortunately you would find the #s 100:1 of Chabadskers leaving the fold rather than find a new Rebbe/Path.
Gevezener - truly wonderful writing. And Tzig, you should be proud! A blog strives for a post like this, whos comments stay on topic and are well written to the point where one of them could even become the topic of another post! BRavo!
Entertaining farbissenkait to say the least. Beautifully written. Just remember they don't build monuments to pundits! Say what you want about him, the Ruv built an empire. Try it!
I do not understand this thread and the continuous criticisms of Belz, Chaim Berlin and other Orthodox groups.
Every Chassiidus has a counter history and every major chassidus today has a "story" like Vishnitz , Satmar, Lubavitch,Skver, Toldos Ahron Bobov. The plot involves corruption, nepotism and more in some cases. So you are much worse than David Assaf, he writes this stuff in terms of old history , but you write about current real time schmutz . Why ? And you call yourself a chasid ?I guess you are mad at DA only because he wrote about Reb Moshe if he ahd stuck to writing about Breslev, belz and Ruzhin you would be campaiging for his book !
Yet this blog was started to fight Lubavitch bashing, but I guess it is permited to bash other rebbes in the most disgusting manner. Thats perfectly kosher.
In the secular world this is called hypocrosy.And there is a Hebrew word for it too and Chazal warn us aginst just such people.
You in Chabad claim to respect all Talmide haBesht and claim your rightful place among them. You claim to be into Kiruv rechokim and now to defend yourself against so called yeshiva world critics and internal Chabad critics(of course there are no Chabad critics everyone in CH is happy and its just a love fest there ...). Yet I have to wonder perhaps you guys really have another agenda to cut other Chassidic groups down to size (Satamr, Belz, Bobov etc) in order to 'fartumlen " the olam as not to see what is really going on in Chabad how the whole of Chabad is not becoming modern but already IS MODERN overloaded with Western ideas about democrocy, free speech, do your own thing,feminism ,individual choice, western dress, goyische food, Yiddish has almost gone to the birds, shluchoth , why not try that the concept of shluchoth on in Belz and noch vaiter all blended in with a vilde Goyische type of Messianism)), as one observer called it the right wing of Modern orthodoxy , I am not certain thats accurate certainly several sectors of MO Judaism are more frum that Chabad and certainly the MO world is going in the RIGHT direction, while you guys are going downhill fast. So hide behind attacks on Belz, Chaim Berlin and more nonsense. And finally in the divide and conquer philosophy of your movement I would not put it past your guys to think that in the chaos some will join your movement. After all look where it got some of the Banshakim who joined Chabad Yea ! take a good look !
If you had an ounce of Chassidus in your blood you would apologize to the rav of Belz and stop these sort of threads ! After all as Chabad says everyone has to do teshuva .
Better dedicate this blog to return Chabad to its yesodoth.
Lex
You pay Tzig and Gevezener Belzer a backhanded compliment by implying that if YOU are Lex Luthor then THEY must be Supermen.
The question is will a comment like this have the effect on these Supermen of Green, Red or Gold Kryptonite.
Bray:
Gedenk: a hasidisher kryptonite is vert mer vi der gantzer misnagdisher fortress of solitude.
Lex
you're somewhat right.
Klainer-
maybe but NOT in this Bizarro world
Lex
you're somewhat right.
red. definitely red.
Lex
I see your long anti chabad tirade,Alles is good and fine since it is the uplieg by all charidem that chabad blood is free.
But the difference is simple,
Belz is Oiseh Masse Zimri Imevakesh Sechar Kepinchas,
The Rebbe with the "Bent down" is getting flak for modernizing chabad, non yiddish speaking, having a shlochuth convention with 2000 women with long shietels etc... But you know exactly what you are getting. But a Rebbe with shirt shtriklech,that is busy introducing Knickerbockers for all grown males,to have a unique levush, with modern hashkofas is in my eyes 10 times worse. Was fighting for his NY Rosh Hamosdos eventough he was caught red handed with a Eishes Ish,untill he felt a Tunis Style coup will happen, he threw him to the dogs,And I applaud Hirshel to open the platform for this matter.
Chabad loves all Jews, until in their Nixon paranoia they sense a Yeshiva guy turning on the light to expose their fog induced empire.
Anyone else see any Freudian signs in the edifice built by man who was only able to produce one heir. Yeah, a bit grub - but it has phallic qualities to it, no??
Anonymous.
Your comment proves my point. Every chasiduth is full of Rebbes trying to secure their position and repalcing others. Trying to do things their way Disappointed office holders well one shot a US Presient in the 19th century.If you don 't like the ruv please join Machnovke you guys have a choice.
The sort of stuff you describe about Belz is not remarkable its the every day material of all worlds the charedi world included.
I am sure Moshe rabbeinu was criticized for replacing the Zekanim with his relatives too.
You fail to get my point . Circus tent was created as a vehicle to fight just this sort of news reporting you now praise him for ! Except the characters or heroes are different people .
Please tell me can one defend Chabad without attacking Belz. Can one defend Satmar without attacking Belz for 3 weeks now .
Its interesting that Chabad has a strange ally in Tzig's war against Belz DER YID hakdosh.
Lubavitch can be defended in ways other than going out and attacking Belz, Chaim Berlin and others.
I very much doubt that the Rebbe with the bent down hat as you call him gets any satisfaction on atatcks on the belzer ruv . I really doubt it.
Circus tent was created as a vehicle to fight just this sort of news reporting
Ever read Animal Farm?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm#Plot_summary
gevezener Belzer…I hope you quit your day job and take up blogging full time. I so enjoyed your comment, both the general content but even more the edginess and wit of your remarks. I have no idea whether what you write is accurate, but after your send-up, I am hard pressed to imagine otherwise.
My speculation is that you are not American, I would say a London Belzer with a classical education. I offer up as evidence your correct but English spelling of “Bodleian” (vs. the American “Bodelian”),Alsacian (vs. the more American “Alsatian”) , the use of words like “hitherto” , “royal coffers”, “bedfellow”,” ghastly” and “toe no one’s line”. Also how you gave a Shakespearian spin to the marriage of Moshe Tuvia’s widow to the Belzer’s father in law. I might be reading too much into your comments, but if you’re no more than a gevezener Belzer, then you are not only a very good satirist you also have an extraordinary feel for the English language.
Hirshel,
My very real hakaras hatov for you and your chasadim tovim to me is currently being overwhelmed by the feeling of disgust I have for these threads here. Did some Belzer chossid beat you up when you were young? Here is a man, at the very least a BaNSHaK, a hard-working askan who is working on L'hagdil Torah U'l'haadria, granted through the gashmius of a building, but also through his kreiz's path of the Derech Baal Shem Tov (not as rotzui as Derech Chassidus Chabad l'sheetas'cha, of course, but still something ...right?) a man who went to visit your Rebbe and has Zara Chaya v'kayama, and a yoreish to his admorus thanks to your Rebbe. Maybe he runs things with a Yad Chazaka, but doing what he's trying to do, and has done, maybe he can be given some slack for not leaving these things to "shluchim". And you invite all his son'im to make a mess and defecate all over your blog!?
Are all the extra "hits" worth it? Do you get paid by the "hit"? In ego certainly. (Who wouldn't?) But even if it's just that, would you not see this as a case of yatza s'charo b'hefseido? I would mention something about the Gan Eden of a Motzi Sheim Ra, but I know that Chabadskers don't care about Gan Eden, al derech "Ich vil gor nist etc" So I will appeal to your shprach: How much are these posts and comments gratuituosly attacking people and mosdos the Rebbe was mechabeid, doing to make the world a place that is either a "Muchshar" to be a Dira B'Tachtonim Loi Yisboreich like the world was before Brias Adam, or Mamosh a Dira B'Tachtonim Loi after L'Avdah U'l'shamra of Adam Harishon, or an even deeper Dirah that is possible after the seven doros till Moshe Rabbeinu, including the Ispashtusa etc.?
I know nothing from Belz, besides the little I've read here and there. I have no cheilek in this fight. I don't think I've even ever knowingly met a Belzer Chossid. But I know this is wrong. I find the Nusach talk intriguing, because I like all discussions of Nusach. But this merciless beating doesn't make up for it.
Kvodo Bimkomo...
Lex
Judaism never had a -sweep under the carpet- policy. Tanach is full of the wrongdoings of the masses and some corrupt leaders. The Chazon Ish writes that to exploit the corruption of a leader dose not compromise the issur of Loshon Hara.
Klainer
You got the wrong end of the stick. For arguments sake I will act as the Devils Advocate, what Gevezner does or believes is of no ones concern other than himself and his God. It is none of your business if he decides to take smicha in the Belzer Kollel or to get a doctorate at Harvard. I agree with you that a person with his degree of openmindness, did not leave Belz because of the Belzers diversion of his ancestors. However it is still perfectly legitimate for people like him to feel upset that their youth has been robbed and their teenage innocents has been taken advantage in making them believe in the epitome of hypocrisy.
The Belzer has got no problem to invite secular politicians to debate in syposyims in his yeshivas, or have Mizrachi physcolgists join the board of his Mosdos. No problem. Belz have always been the one to stretch out a hand, to be Mekarov Rechokem, they even have a Cable TV for this purpose. However if a Yungerman who wants to to experience a genuine uplifting moment of Shalish Sedos, and dares to wander off to R Tvi Meir he will immediately be reprimanded, and if he dares to explore a bit future than hearing the Ruv political views on sthediege Torah, and dares to have a taste of Harav Kluger, he will stand trial at a military field court and him and his whole family will be ostracised, and booted out of all the institutions. So much so for encouraging Kiruv and being a pluralistic leader, if this is not hypocrisy please tell me what is.
Anonymous. Why write to me ?Address your comments & write to Tzig and tell him the exact same thing about ... Chabad Lubavitch and their leaders.Tell him you want an open forum about all that goes on in Chabad , rabbonus, shlichus fights , Vaad hakohel, discussion of new spiritual leadership, all tne monies misappropriated over the last 50 years by rabbis XYZ and how ploni defended them and so on lets read all about it right here, Extra 1 Extra ! you want the full monty as you claim "Judaism never had an under the carpet policy. "Lets here it all about Berlin, Paris, only the truth ! Hurray for the truth !
I know there are many peopel with an interest to destroy others, but my comments are directed at Tzig who is a Man of Faith, how can you allow such words agaisnt gedolei Israel on your blog ?
Tzig its high time to call a halt to this type of electronic journalism.The Rebbe did not mean this.
And by the way all you see Mr. Anonymous to the Kleiner about Belz can also apply to Lubavitch of the last 50 years. Why not address that too on this very open minded site.
But once again I urge Der Bok to call a halt to this sort of comments and journalism.
Gevezener is gone.
Guillotine or firing squad?
I'm very sorry Mr Anony 6:02. There's something called having a discussion among gentlemen where criticism is offered within the realm of good taste and a sense of mutual respect. Then ,of course, you can call your opponent"papa doc duvalier,"nevuchanezzer,and make crude references to his bodily parts.If Mr gevezener were discussing politics I would agree that his secular education is nobody's business. If he's giving musser to the Belzer Rov over perceived heresies in religious practice then the mochiach's personal life is very much an issue.Would you listen to a reform rabbi tell you that the o-u is not a good hechser?
"If you had an ounce of Chassidus in your blood you would apologize to the rav of Belz and stop these sort of threads"
If he had an ounce of yiddishe blit.Step by step.Don't jump
"a man who went to visit your Rebbe and has Zara Chaya v'kayama, and a yoreish to his admorus thanks to your Rebbe."
What is the story.Can you fill us in on it?
"I know nothing from Belz, besides the little I've read here and there. I have no cheilek in this fight. I don't think I've even ever knowingly met a Belzer Chossid."
The biggest Chasidic kehilla in Montreal is Belz and they had a real Malach as ruv, the Pupa rov.I can't believe you never saw him??
yechiel
I never saw him either. Is that a crime?
Are you from Montreal???
You missed out.He had the face of an angel.People were in love with him.He was such a wonderful person, besides being a great talmid chuchem
let me ask you:
did every man in New York see the Satmar Rov, or the Lubavitcher Rebbe or Rav Moshe Feinstein?
Montreal=New York???
Montreal=CH
Most people who lived in CH saw the Rebbe, same for anyone who lived in Willy saw R'Yoelish
I guess he's not one of the "most people..."
But let him answer for himself
Btw,I never heard of a maaseh with the Belzer Ruv and the Rebbe about his son, although loh shomati eino raayah but I read some incredible story about The Pupa Ruvs mother and the Rashab if I"m not mistaken.Born from his brucha??Something like that.The Pupa Ruvs father was not chasidish.I"m sure you"ll be able to uncover the story I mean
Yechiel, strange you mention the Pupa rov. He also happened to be the Ruv's uncle, he was one of the key kingmakers at the time the Ruv was crowned rebbe and he remained a stalwart supporter throughout his life. I agree he had an angelic face. He lived to a ripe old age and he led the Belzer shtibel in Montreal for about 40 or 50 years. Whoever I've heard speak about him has had only nice things to say. He unfortunately died childless.
Yet for the sin of asking to be buried close to his Rebbe the (groise) Pupa Rov, the VaYa'an Yosef, rather than in the new Belzer chelke which could do with some sheine yidn, Belz virtually disowned him. No hesped was held for him in Yerusholayim and those close to the Rov maligned him badly. As if that wasn't enough, when AM visited Montreal he ordered that the Pupa Rov's lectern be removed from the Beis Hamedresh or he will stay outside.
Now you tell me who is being vindictive.
uh aron mortche iz takke groise!
yechiel,
Mah Noimar, Uma Nitztadak? I never saw the Pupa Rov.
Although the Yeshiva Gedola was not that far from those parts of Montreal, I never spent time there at all.
I never visited the Tosher Rebbe either.
I did spend one Shabbos in the Skver Shechuna.
I think I've had my fair share of comments so I'll reply only briefly.
As anon said above I am not the issue here. I am as entitled to critique the Ruv as he is to denounce the Va'Yoel Moshe from the pulpit or send a bone as sherayim to Dovid Shmidel.
The issue is also not what he has achieved or his personal qualities of which there are many. I have even written about them in previous comments.
He is however first and foremost a chasidic Rebbe which at some level must include sincerity and spiritual leadership. It is on that and that alone by which he stands or falls. We can debate endlessly whether he is wily, shrewd, smart, musical, artistic, original, courageous, ambitious and any other attribute you wish to add. I also do not seek to detract from his enormous achievements in rebuilding a backwater chasidus to something that resembles its former glory.
But it all matters little for the job he's been hired, or, more accurately, he grabbed, for it is in spirituality and sincerity that he fails dismally. Do not force shich in zokn on all your bochurim and yungeleit and ban metal spectacles in your yeshives but invite TV cameras to the highlight of the Belzer ceremonial calendar, the U'vou Chilom Tish, or as R' Ahron Mordechai Rutner dubbed it, the U'vou Fil'm Tish. Do not pontificate on the dangers of technology and fool your followers that videoing at your kid's simches is close circuit while recording it surreptitiously on DVD. It's fine to be intellectually curious but share it with the thousands of children under your wings. Give them a half decent education rather than pretend to be revolutionary by suggesting virtually unemployable 20 somethings ought to go out to work . And there is little merit to independence if it is used to exploit those same that you have disenfranchised. There is no sincerity in hypocrisy and there is no spirituality in naked materialism.
As to the changes in nusach and the modernizing of what was a very conservative movement, this is the evidence and not part of the indictment. Few ask that he cocoon himself in a time warp like his Skverer brother in law and pretend they're still waltzing at the Congress of Vienna. But if you are going to introduce change show what its purpose is and what you are trying to achieve. You can mock the Gerrer Rebbe for his changes to the study system but at least you know what he is aiming for. If only the same could be said about many of the Ruv's innovations.
What jars most however is when we are asked to look at this pretentious nonsense as proof of the spirituality and greatness he so lacks. Lift up your eyes, they say, and look who produced these hip CDs, erected this marvellous shul, defeated Satmar, beat up Machnovke and there shall you find the truth. See, they gloat, who amongst his peers is shrewder and more ruthless and you will find there is no Rebbe like our Rebbe.
I lifted my eyes, I pricked my ears, I sharpened my nose and found something not quite to their liking. Don't blame me for telling you about it.
הני כלבין דחציפין
there is a tape from uvilchticha baderech called" parshas belz " a speech by the kashau rov ztl.
please post an audio link so the uninformed can be brought up to date
Yechiel
You got your facts muddled up.
The Belzer's one and only visit to the Lubavitcher Rebbe was is 1982. His son was already learning Chumash at that time. One could argue that the Rebbe ztl had a strike of innocence, however barley five minutes in the conversation he asked the Belzer "why are you slandering yidden?" This conclusive punchline will haunt the Belzers forever. The Rebbe was the first to declare that the emperor has got no clothes.
Rumor has it that on his previous visit to the states in the mid 70's, he got a Brocha for children from the Satmar Ruv Zua. This however did not stop the Belzer to publicly mock him and his Seforim. The saintly Satmar Ruv could have been his great grandfather, and all what he had to say was, that his teachings are only made for people who eat "stuffed ducks".
Lex
I am not a free speech advocate. We as frum yidden have got restrictions when it comes to gossip. Someone from a village called Radin, made a sefer on this subject. So all the unfortunate scuffing which goes on between private individuals, it is not my intention to comment on. However when you are a leader and you are suppose to lead by example, one has to be able to be put to scrutiny if they suit the job. Such debate is of a healthy nature. People have to know if you only talk the talk or walk the walk.
As far as Berlin and Paris are concerned. Lubavitch have never denied this. It is not something that they will inscript on the Rebbe's tombstone (no offense intended for the meshcisten) however everyone in Lubavitch is aware that the Rebbe was in University. On the contrary they over glorify some facts, they claim that the Rebbe was studying under Einstein something that Deutch in his controversial book Lager than Life (a post on that book is long overdue) has proven to be utter BS.
Anon, I'm not sure you're right that the Belzer and Lubavitcher met only once. The Belzer was in the States in about 1975 and I think he also me the Lubavitcher then. I remember hearing stories of their second conversation beginning where the first one left off as if it had happened only the week before.
Can you please provide more info on this 'slandering Jews' question. What preceded and what followed it and how did the Belzer retort?
do you actually pay the $7 for this belz-jerusalem monthly pr magazine? latley they take people out of the graves and force them to remember stuff.
count how many times the source is a z"l (meaning not alive), to whom did this dead person tell the story to? and if so why dont they wrote the livings persons name?
i thing the ostreicher brothers went on a "dimyon" ride, the naroler rav or shmiel porges said a story to whom did they say it? and how old was he at the time? what was hin mental status?
Anonmous 5:14
What "facts" have I got mixed up??
It was Yehupitz who said that the son was born from the Lubavitchers brucheh.
Read before you post
Anon
"The biggest Chasidic kehilla in Montreal is Belz and they had a real Malach as ruv, the Pupa rov.I can't believe you never saw him??"
the Kliener Puper delivered him a whole Kehila that had no relationship to belz, real Uberlander Yiden that many of the parents dont wear Gartlech yet. The are all coming back from Israel brainwashed to the tilt.But as Gevezener wrote, he got a Bricke in his rear end, as all the People that raised him, married him off and fought for his Nesius. The Kliener Puper made alot of enemies with his old pals and cousins. It is all documented in letters, but Rav Shach and some Gevir Herzog got a hesped from the King Agrifas but not his uncle, if I am not Mistaking the Vayan Yiossef did not get a hesped neither, He probably did not learn Torah Bekdusha Vetahara as the founder of Degel Hatorah.He believed that he was not enough chosid for him.
Yechiel et al
The Belzer Rov was here in 5733 as well, IIRC, his second visit was ד' אדר א' תשמ"א
Gevezener said:
"Yet for the sin of asking to be buried close to his Rebbe the (groise) Pupa Rov, the VaYa'an Yosef, rather than in the new Belzer chelke which could do with some sheine yidn, Belz virtually disowned him. No hesped was held for him in Yerusholayim and those close to the Rov maligned him badly. As if that wasn't enough, when AM visited Montreal he ordered that the Pupa Rov's lectern be removed from the Beis Hamedresh or he will stay outside."
1- Do you mean the VaYechi Yossef? Are they one and the same?
2- Re the shtender, what does that even mean? He was nifter, they left his shtender there? And he refused to be in the same room?
It doesn't sound like an Aron Mordche thing to say, does it?
3- Did they listen? Did no one protest?
Very strange.
Kolpik or spodik?
Korean clues in heir's fur hat Peter Foster, Beijing
February 4, 2011
.IN MOST parts of the world, princes wear crowns to denote status as heir to the throne. But in secretive and eccentric North Korea it seems to be more a case of furry hats.
By such details do observers read the political tea leaves in Pyongyang, where Kim Jong-il's designated successor, his portly son Kim Jong-un, has suddenly begun stepping out in the same headgear as his father. According to North Korean defectors, until last month only the Dear Leader was entitled to wear a particular brand of handcrafted otter-fur hat, with earflaps, while his minions had to satisfy themselves with cheaper, mass-produced versions.
''It's an unwritten rule that nobody else can wear such a hat,'' a defector told South Korea's Chosun Ilbo newspaper, after photographs emerged of Mr Kim's 28-year-old son wearing his father's trademark hat.
Advertisement: Story continues below ''If Kim Jong-un is also wearing one, it means he has now reached almost the same status as his father,'' the defector said.
The timing of a succession is unclear, but Kim Jong-un has had a swift rise since September when he was given senior posts in the Communist Party.
Unlike his father, who had nearly 15 years to prepare to take over, the young Jong-un must race to cement his position before his father's death.
The otter-fur hat is not just a badge of rank in North Korea but a bitter necessity in a country enduring its coldest winter for 60 years, raising fears of another failed harvest and deepening discontent among its hungry population.
Gutnick Yossel
"1- Do you mean the VaYechi Yossef? Are they one and the same?"
it is the same
"Re the shtender, what does that even mean? He was nifter, they left his shtender there? And he refused to be in the same room?"
the local Kehila want to keep his shtender and chair for eternity, since he was almost the Meyassed Hakehila, but the King Of Agrifas Ruach Aceres Hoisoi Ittoi
"3- Did they listen? Did no one protest?"
I dont know
Yossel:
2.re, the shtender: While I can see some point in not wanting to turn the shtender and chair into a shrine, the way he went about it was brutal especially considering AM may not have been even 30 and the Pupa rov had been a rov there for several decades.
3. Re Protest: I'm afraid dissent was never amongst the Belzer minhogim and it is one tradition the ruv has rigorously maintained and keeps it even further at bay. I think one of the Herzog brothers did leave the shul though I'm not sure if he's stayed out.
As someone who became very close to the Belzer Ruv as Bochur in the Mir I find this so ridiculous.
He took a great personal interest in me and was always mechazek me in Torah and Avoida. The advice he gave me was always smart, and genuine and no..he never expected me to give a Pidyon.
This reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago. I was reading to someone stories of R'Aharon Zy'a and his meticulous Hanhogos in Kedusha..(endless hand washings and not touching peoples hands..etc) and this person just said matter of factly.."sounds like he had major OCD".
And it hit me..that it's all a matter od perspective.
Anyone could look at some R'Ahrons hanhogos and come to that conclusions just as one can observe todays Ruv and come to the conclusions you've come to.
David
"sounds like he had major OCD".
did you ask the Belzer Rov if his uncle had OCD?
"As someone who became very close to the Belzer Ruv as Bochur in the Mir I find this so ridiculous.
He took a great personal interest in me and was always mechazek me in Torah and Avoida."
Do your parents make seven or eight figures yearly?
No they don't and they have no shaychus to Belz. My grandfather was a Belzer Yoishev in Galitzia.
David
"No they don't and they have no shaychus to Belz. My grandfather was a Belzer Yoishev in Galitzia."
being a grandson of a yoshev is a big shaychus
what can i add to 70 cooments, this rebbi is bored and lacks attention like a little child, i cant wait for his son to become and the glory of belz will come back, and with that a better nussach hatfila.
Reb Hirshel
I think you have gone too far with this post.
Oh we'll try here in this ausgeribbener thread.
Does anyone have an opinion on this weeks' Mishpacha article?
http://mishpacha.com/Browse/Article/727/The-Miracle-Officer
Miracle 1
The holy brothers were eventually whisked out of occupied Poland and into Hungary by a reliable Hungarian counter-intelligence officer who was willing to rescue Jews for a price. Shorn of their beards and peyos, they were disguised as Russian generals who had been captured at the front and were being taken to Budapest for questioning.
Much of what took place on that incredible drive will remain forever a mystery, but the Rebbe himself would recount three examples of Heavenly intervention as they drove through one checkpoint after another without being detained.
The Rebbe talked about an “eerie mist” that enveloped the car throughout the journey, which seemed to render the car invisible. On arrival to Budapest, the officer himself testified that the car was rarely asked to stop, yet he had no problem navigating the vehicle — in front of it, all was clear.
.
Miracle 2
In another instance, the car suddenly stopped dead. The officer, who saw what had happened, was wringing his hands in despair, because to fix the problem would require a professional welder. Suddenly, an old man appeared, striding toward them. When they explained the problem to him, he took a screwdriver from the leather sash tied around his waist, tinkered under the hood, and the motor sprang to life.
Years later, the Rebbe told this to the Sadigurer Rebbe, who responded that “a man with a leather sash wrapped about his waist” is a reference to Eliyahu HaNavi. The Rebbe, it is told, didn’t respond, but smiled enigmatically.
Miracle 3
One of the oft-repeated miracles the chassidim tell took place at the Hungarian border checkpoint. Up to this point, at most of the border checks the officer managed to wave some mysterious documents at the guard, who ushered them through. Now, the border guard stopped them for inspection, but wasn’t satisfied with these documents. Pointing his gun at them, he ordered them out of the car. Suddenly, out of nowhere, three senior officials appeared and instructed the guard to release them immediately and to let them continue on their way.
The Bilgoray Rav, when he used to tell this wonder-tale, would add, “Those three officials were none other than our fathers, the three Belzer Rebbes, may they rest in Eden ...” — his father, Rebbe Yissachar Dov; his grandfather, Rebbe Yeshiele; and his great-grandfather, Rebbe Shalom.
From Belize to Belz.
The ex-convict rapper Shyne who shtams from Belize has been adopted by the Belzer Hasidim according to this article.
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/giving-israel-s-image-a-good-rap-1.341149
This is is the story of a Belzer chusid who mocked the LR's kiruv campaigns and then his wayward son was returned to the proper Belzer path by Chabadniks on the streets of Manhattan.
http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=22029
As I said, ausgeribbener thread
ס'גארנישט אזוי אויסגעריבן
Nothing is happening. This is blog Siberia.
I'm waiting.
Jingle
is there no other topic you can discuss?
Not really.
Post a Comment