Monday, May 9, 2011

The Impostors of Jewish Thought (part II)


See Part I

Guest post by Guravitzer


Preface.

BeSho'oh SheHikdimu Te'erav, Perek 14
: "And this will be understood in the higher sphere through the statement of our Sages, their memory is a blessing, 'Quiet! So arose in thought.' For it seems to mean that there is no reason at all for this. But in truth it is profanity to say so, for this is not said in stubbornness, Chas VeShalom. But this is the idea of the concealed reason that is higher than the intellect and Chochmah-reasoning. And according to intellect there is no reason for this at all, to the point that there was no room in his [Moshe Rabbeinu's] intellect for this, and he asked, 'And is this Torah and is this its reward?' And this is the idea of the light of Chochmah-reasoning as it is higher than the container of Chochmah-reasoning." BeSho'oh SheHikdimu is the series of writings and talks by the fifth Chabad Rebbe, the Rebbe Rashab, tackling the highest levels of Kabbalah according to Chassidus, published in three volumes. "This" refers to raking the flesh being Rabbi Akiva's reward for his Torah study.

In other words, there is a level of thought which rises above all other thoughts at all levels. To get the answers to questions of Emunah which challenge the Litvishe thinkers and gedolim we must rise to this level of thought, reached by Baalei Ruach HaKodesh, although never quite reached by us. At the lowest level, the light of Chochmah resides in the keli-container of our chochmah, our mind, Sechel Anoshi. Human intelligence, being a container made of the thickening of light of Elokus, can’t comprehend Elokus. The Rebbe Rashab provides examples of this distinction in the above Ma’amar. The intellect of the Nefesh-soul before descent to the body versus the intellect in the human mind. Understanding the true nature of the spiritual versus only understanding the fact of the existence of the spiritual. Understanding concepts unlimited by time and place versus understanding our limited world. In all of these, human intelligence can be told of the existence of these higher spheres by Baalei Ruach HaKodesh, and be given understandable metaphors from our world. This doesn’t negate the attempt of Sechel Anoshi to understand Elokus. We should try that as well. It breaks the natural pattern of Sechel Anoshi to lean towards the animal, as Seichel Anoshi is a subset of the Nefesh HaBehamis.

If we consider Moreh Nevuchim as an explanation of Elokus and Emunah according to Sechel Anoshi, we’re told that Chasidim as far back as the Alter Rebbe’s Chasidim were fluent in Moreh Nevuchim, as well as Kuzari, Emunos Vedeios and other Sifrei Emunah. But we must realize that Emunah of the Nefesh Elokis lies further than those explanations. This Emunah is not fed, it is uncovered, the Nefesh Elokis is incapable of disbelief. This is a two-sided coin, both Emunah Peshuta and Emunah in a realm described by Mekubalim and explained by Toras HaChasidus. In essence, a person who professes disbelief doesn’t need to be convinced of anything. The Nefesh Elokis must be revealed to overpower the subset of the Nefesh HaBehomis that is Sechel Anoshi. With Sechel Eloki firmly in control of the Sechel Anoshi, we can then proceed to let the Sechel Anoshi dabble in trying to understand Elokus at its level. A piece of Matzah at the Seder may be more effective than all the permissions to believe and receive.


At heart, these ideas are not new, they emerge from the old. Witness the Rebbe Rashab’s statement of concept as based on a Ma’amar Chazal. Toras HaChasidus reveals the deeper meaning of every part of Torah. Whatever you have isn’t taken away. What you have is shown to have depths you never knew. The Rebbe defined this clearly in the booklet The Concept Of The Teachings of Chassidus (Kuntres Inyono Shel Toras HaChasidus), that the four layers of Pshat, Remez, Drush, Sod are given more depth through Torah HaChasidus, not superseded by a fifth layer. Again, this is only about this particular article, and this article chose to quote from Litvishe thinkers and gedolim only. I want to stay focused on this article only and not other issues, worthy as they are of discussion on another opportunity. If we broaden the discussion, we lose focus. The article chose to approach this issue from the Litvishe perspective only by providing responses from Litvishe sources only. It wasn't my choice. In general, the Litvishe world is almost the only one where the twisted approach to Emunah makes all conversations fractured.

A Lubavitcher Chosid can have a conversation on this topic with a Tora U’Mada adherent, with a Sephardishe adherent of Emunah Peshuta and Kabalah, with a fellow Chosid of other streams who thirsts to add Chabad Chasidus to the Emunas Chachomim of their Rebbe’s behavior. Toras HaChasidus reveals their inner meaning, no negation, they are all sourced in holiness. Only a crooked path whose fallacy is most clearly shown in Discovery seminars full of foolish content can’t be helped, there is no inner meaning. I am writing for the children bereft of Emunah. I want you to know there are answers. This may not affect your behavior or beliefs, now or ever. But you should know that when your teacher told you to be quiet, there are no answers, the question itself is despicable - your teacher was wrong.

51 comments:

Shoyn fun Long Confused said...

Without further adue,Rabbi Guravitzer,why was Rabbi Akiva tortured and killed?You've obviously learnt the relevant maamorim,so please allay my sfeikes once and for all. But please don't tell me it's incomprehensible, because I already know that.

Zeir sham said...

In other words ,we're the greatist.

grainom said...

I went to all litvishe yeshivos and never had a question rebuffed.
There are only apikorsishe answers - not questions.

Anonymous said...

Learn Nefesh Hachaim beiyun rav and you will understand Toras Chayim.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Learn Nefesh Hachaim beiyun rav
but to understand it well, you have to learn Tanya, since it is established scientifically that it is based on tanya

מלבשתו ענווה said...

The apostles of אותו איש also thought that they had the answer for everything.


It does not mean they did.

Anonymous said...

Guravitzer-If you're such a tzadik and know the meaning of life in all eilomes and beyond why do you call yourself after the name of a "fallen" chosid from a novel by Dr. Fishel Schneersohn MD-a chosid turned psychiatrist who was a maskilishe ,veltliche person?"Es past" for a chosid who's learnt the Chasides of the Rebbe Rashab to call himself with such a name?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"and know the meaning of life in all eilomes and beyond"
did he say he knows? he just quotes the yiden who knew the Shevilai Derekia as the Shevilai deNehardoha

Gimpel said...

Anon 3:29
You have missed the point. Chayim Gravitzer is a masterpiece of a novel. It explains clearly the fallacy of this writer's belief system. Read it and you will see.
Another point: Most of Judaism allows for a multiplicity of opinions. Some Talmidei Chachomim disagreed with chassidus. Is their opinion as irrelevant as Kant, or does it have the legitimacy of another shita in Judaism? If the latter your thesis is debunked. You can prove the correctness of your opinion, but not with the premise that dissent is ignorance.

Anonymous said...

Gimpel If what you said is true why didn't Fishel S. become a B.T.?Your next point,I don't understand. Please explain.

Gimpel said...

I know they told you otherwise, but FS was frum his whole life. My second point was that the article is written with the belief that the Litvishe did not arrive at certain points in learning and understanding that chassidus did, and therfore they will never understand. He refuses to entertain the chance that the Misnagdim knew what they were talking about and decided to disagree, just like any other machlokes in Judaism.

Anonymous said...

Gimpel: OK. thanks.

Rupert said...

Who is the goy darshening in the photo?

Yuri said...

Rupert; that's Nikita Khrushchev darshening about the relationshiop between the sechel haenushi and the sechel ha...He just finished learning a maymer chasides and is getting ready to have a kelishik with the "good" stuff...

BelzFinAMool said...

I feel as clueless Kruschev does to understanding this kind of toras HaChasidus.
In Galicia we say, mit vus est men dus, a gupel oder a lefel?

An Ailemesher said...

Guravitzer - This is typical Lubavitcher nonsense. The group with the biggest emunah problems is Lubavitch. That is the only group that has a significant number of members that believe that their Rebbe is God.

I still remember hearing a recording of R. Liebel Groner saying, when the Rebbe was sick, "דער אייבערשטער מוז אויס היילען דער רבי". Never heard anyone from another group give orders to G-d - ח"ו. In contrast, someone once asked the Brisker Rov for a brocho. When he demurred, that person responded צדיק גוזר והקב"ה מקיים. The Brisker Rov replied that for his whole life he's been trying to be מקיים גזירות הקב"ה not to be גוזר for הקב"ה.

Do Lubavitcher's really believe and feel that the Rebbe is לא חשיב קמיה? Don't think so.

Anonymous said...

An Ailimisher
This word that you quote from Brisker Ruv is a lie since it is kefira in chazal, if chazal write that the the Tzadik is Goizer then it is a fact.And Brisker Ruv was a mamin in chazal.

Anonymous said...

and actually, lubavitcher masses have bigger emunah questions or actually non believers in thwe 13 ikkarey hoemunoh than any other charedi group! They may believe in the rebbe but that is about it!

Anonymous said...

and lubavitchers have a greater number of dropouts (which comes also from lack of emunoh) than any others charedi or yeshivish group!

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Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

because what's the connection to what we're talking about here?!

shmilu said...

Anyone of the old timers here can remember what Mentalblog had to say about Guravitzer.Amazing how right he was

Anonymous said...

Anon
"They may believe in the rebbe but that is about it!"
they dont believe in Nizchias hatorah?

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Anonymous said...

An ailimisher
I thought the whole tefilas amida, you tell the Hashem what to do,this is the system that he created for tefila, that the bonim lamokam can tell him what to do.
Most of the tefilas dont have the word Nu, you just say it

Anonymous said...

Yesת, we need the kind of emunah that spits out "לכבוד הרבי מלך המשיח ולתפארת מדינת ישראל"

Miles said...

I say R. Rosenberg would have done better to stay home than to display his misugayes in front of the entire nation. How can the Rebbe be moshiach at the same time that his daughter and son-in-law were brutally murdered?The two events are contradictory and incompatible with one another. Since the events in Mumbai did in fact happen it folloews that the Rebbe is not moshiach. Period.This is a public exhibition of the state of dementia Lubavitch finds itself in.

lemato miasuru said...

whats the current face of Lubavitch?

this?

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=34496

or this???

BeSho'oh SheHikdimu Te'erav, Perek 14: "And this will be understood in the higher sphere through the statement of our Sages,

Anonymous said...

Miles
is it different then making the Seder in Poland pre WW11, when you are in the stage of Akata Avdie Deachasvieroish.We in Judaism can live in contradiction, and we survive.
"This is a public exhibition of the state of dementia Lubavitch finds itself in."
Did you hear that Vaad Rabonai Chabad wrote a Kol Korie against it,why are you blaming Chabad as a whole for Reb Shimon deeds.you probably feel good to the chabad bashing group, so gie mach a leben, just watch out that the Greek parades shouldn't run you over.

miles said...

Mr Anon.6:07 In golus we can live in contradiction. But if Moshiach is here then what is the meaning of geulah if there is still contradiction? Now you've watered down the geulah to include contradiction and death? Anything, even if totally bizarre, to pretend your leader was moshiach which he clearly wasn't. Otherwise how could the events in Mumbai and Itamar among others take place?Did anyone say that Moshiach had arrived in Poland during the war? What are you talking about?The Rabbonim criticized his participation in the torch lighting not his remarks about Moshiach.I will be careful to avoid any Chabad icons as it is clearly a violation of uvchukoseihem.By the way when Mrs. LaPine was brutally murdered in CH your own leader said it was a choshech koful umkufol and was terribly upset. Now you tell me that the Mumbai murders and the Itamar atrocities are just a matter of "contradiction?" There are no contradictions in the yemos hamoshiach. If there were, why would we be waiting for Moshiach for so long?Forget about politics and use your head and think about what I am saying.

Anonymous said...

Miles
I am no Moshiachist, and no spokesman for Reb Shimon, but Reb Shimon only believes that he knows who the moshiach is , but the Geula did not happen yet.So you can stay confused

Anonymous said...

Miles
"Anything, even if totally bizarre, to pretend your leader was moshiach which he clearly wasn't."
Maybe he was Bechezkas Moshiach? can you proof otherwise?

Anonymous said...

Miles
"?Did anyone say that Moshiach had arrived in Poland during the war? What are you talking about"
I never say that there were Meshichisten in Poland, you are maybe perfect in writing the Loshen Am Zor, but you have comprehension problems. I just said that a seder was made as a Am Choirin, a day before we were hauled on the tracks to Treblinka.

Anonymous said...

Miles
"By the way when Mrs. LaPine was brutally murdered in CH your own leader said it was a choshech koful umkufol and was terribly upset. Now you tell me that the Mumbai murders and the Itamar atrocities are just a matter of "contradiction?"
You are pasting together Hoidi and Kush, the only think I am grasping is, your derogatory fashion of name calling the Geoin Yisroel Ukedoishoi.

Anonymous said...

Miles
"in the yemos hamoshiach. If there were, why would we be waiting for Moshiach for so long?"
this question you can ask the Chofetz Chaim, Satmar Ruv etc.. too

Anonymous said...

Miles
"Forget about politics and use your head and think about what I am saying."
it is impossible to forget politics when talking to a Political Junkie like you..

Anonymous said...

Hirshl I'm impressed. Just want to add.
There is a connection between
Litvisher and Chassisher drochim that
the Bnei Yissoschor is maarich on.
I remeber its in several places in his sforim. Saying that
learning even Niglos HaTora connects
one to the emuna that the Rbsh"o
was mashpia at the mamad hanivchor.
Making bikush al ydey mechkor unnecessary
And wrong. He teiches Halvay Oisi ozvu vsoirosi etc.

Btw Nefesh Hachayim was written to counter the Tanya
This is well known in Brisk. I heard
it brought out as follows. "R Chaim Valozhiner hotzach mit
opgigebn un geshribn veil zey zaynen givehn Leybn un
Rizn That was not only re the BH"T ZL
but the conversation was re the R"R Meilech ZL

But Hirshl vos tutzach mit Ain Dorshim Lifnayty etc
You should know better. Just read the
posts above.

Miles said...

In the siche of 28 Nisen it is made clear WITHOUT DOUBT that moshiach is not here in any way,shape, or form. That was the meaning of the siche as a 5 year old knows. Your insanity has caused you to go against the very words of your Rebbe.The only thing that's happened since then is that another war was faught in Israel and hundreds more Jews have been killed in terror attacks.In the siche and the tone of voice used it is clear that Moshiach has not come and nothing even remotely related to such an event has occurred. Your indoctrination causes you to violate the very words of your Rebbe!Go listen to the siche and tell me I'm wrong.I challenge you.

miles said...

Anon.11:57Why don't you let us in on your "secrets."If your comment was published then it's meant for everyone. Some of us even know a word or two in Loshn Kodesh.So what are these secret dotrines that you "shushkeve" zich about?Or perhaps we're just not to be trusted with such top secret stuff?

Anonymous said...

Miles
I was quoting a Sugya in Chagiga. When you grow
up and will IY"H start to learn Gemara
it will be readily recognized by you as well.
I prefer actually to watch you have your
Shtusevatte debates. But when it
comes to Ikrey Hoemuna most here are what the Rambam would term Gassey Haseychel Vhahasgo.

Anonymous said...

sorry for the topical irrelevance - look at http://matzav.com/rabbi-dovid-raskin-zl and the original on COLlive for matzav's top-notch editing!

miles said...

Anon.10:48 As far as gasei haseichel ,I know who that refers to as well...Have fun pretending to be smarter than everyone else...In an empty world,that ,too, feels good.You are not the only one in the frum street who plays the role of the condescending "wise man".It's a common "machalah."The problem is that it's just a "role" and has little to do with realy being wise.If you really understood B'nai Yisoschor you would already know this...

grainom said...

I still remember hearing a recording of R. Liebel Groner saying, when the Rebbe was sick, "דער אייבערשטער מוז אויס היילען דער רבי". Never heard anyone from another group give orders to G-d - ח"ו. - so said an ailimisher.

have you never been to lubavitch before? the rebbe coined the phrase "we want moshiach now" as a demand of the rebono shel olam to do as we say, what do you expect from groner?

Anonymous said...

Miles tayerer

LEARN!!

2 things will happen
A- you'll know
B- you'll be happier. Not
walking around with
inferiority issues and anger
towards "the frum street"

Anon3 said...

PS to my above post

"A torch lighting ceremony in honor of Israel's independence has ignited a heated argument among Anash in Eretz Hakodesh, since members of Anash (R' Sh. R. and his young grandson M.) are among those chosen to light a torch. Rabbi R. has accepted and felt proud to represent Chabad and the Rebbe's Shluchim at the ceremony; However, many Lubavitchers feel this very same ceremony is in direct opposition to the Rebbe's stance on the 5th of Iyar and all the celebrations in conjunction with that day.

Various Rabbonei Chabad have come out with a statement that will be published in the morning papers, clarifying that the said Chossid is acting on his own as a private citizen, and doesn't represent Lubavitch or the Rebbe's Shluchim in any way.

Signed on the document are Rabbis: Menachem Mendel Glukowsky, Eliyahi Yochonon Gurarie, Ze'ev Dov Slonim, Yosef Hecht, Avrohom Michel Halperin and Mordechai Shmuel Ashkenazi, of Bais Din Rabbonei Chabad, and Rabbis Naftoli HaCohen Roth, Osher Lemel Cohen, Yosef Yitzchok Havlin and Dovid Meir Druckman."

miles said...

Anon.12:43
Mein Tayerer:Get some psychotherapy. It's very helpful even for a lamdan like yourself.Best wishes.

Anonymous said...

Miles
Is their a charidie psychotherapist, that you recommend?
because the non charadiem, say Kefira,according to the Gedolim

Anonymous said...

When I view your RSS feed it just gives me a page of weird text, may be the problem on my reader? TY for putting this up, it was very helpful and explained tons.

Anonymous said...

part 1? i can't seem to find it?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

who remembers that far back...

Anonymous said...

nu, so what's the story, its lost...?