tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post1209097028099345496..comments2024-03-06T12:52:47.385-05:00Comments on Circus Tent - הירשל ציג'ס בלאג: R' Shlomo Lorencz, ע"הHirshel Tzig - הירשל ציגhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08911009966581004937noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-63608246006499008252009-11-02T21:22:57.354-05:002009-11-02T21:22:57.354-05:00You can see the speech here:
(17 minutes into vi...You can see the speech here: <br /><br />(17 minutes into video) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2018851297218024855&ei=mC4zSc6fPIL8rAKhmbThBA&q=++%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91+%D7%A9%D7%9A&hl=en<br /><br /><br />or here:<br /><br />(At 25:40 into the video)<br />http://www.tsofar.com/zofar/mashtap/show.asp?id=12559Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-86995638228785638302009-10-28T11:33:49.957-04:002009-10-28T11:33:49.957-04:00"This conversation is loosing its utility.&qu..."This conversation is loosing its utility."<br /><br />Agreed. I can only present the same material so many times before your obtuseness and refusal to look make further attempts futile. "None so blind as those who will not see" as the Umos haOlam say.<br /><br />"But I'm quite sure you wouldn't drink from their wine."<br /><br />So, if they turned on the lights in your home on Shabbos you would not leave, right? If they are "Akum l'ch[o]l davar" then you can take advantage of their Melachos; Halacha LeMa'aseh to the contrary notwithstanding.<br /><br />As I said before; Tipesh!CRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-36186683275191733912009-10-27T22:48:05.367-04:002009-10-27T22:48:05.367-04:00This conversation is loosing its utility. You sho...This conversation is loosing its utility. You showed me an article which clearly demonstrates that he did not say what you quoted him as saying and now you are whining about MY reading comprehension. Even the Yated spin doesn't not say what you said Rav Shach himself said. <br /><br />Which acharonim argue on the Rambam? L'chumra, they are tinokos sh'nishbu, to be m'chaiv us. But I'm quite sure you wouldn't drink from their wine.Michoelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-90388302935505089442009-10-27T17:35:19.329-04:002009-10-27T17:35:19.329-04:00"You wrote, with quotation marks, that Rav Sh..."You wrote, with quotation marks, that Rav Shach said .... He didn't say that. What he actually said, in Yiddish was...." <br /><br />Obviously, reading comprehension is not taught in your Kitah Aleph class. I brought you an article that quotes his exact words spoken in front of thousands of people. Further, the article makes it explicit that his intent was to "br[ing] into question the Jewishness of...". Nuff said. You can ignore it all you want but it does not go away.<br /><br />"Rambam who says that a m'challel Shabbos..."<br /><br />So you pasken from the RaMBaM instead of the Acharonim?<br /><br />"Gut [gezogt]... but about the wrong party..."<br /><br />I'll worry about my cultist friends and you worry about yours. Frankly, the way the Markowitz and Kahanemann factions go at each in Panevėžys makes the goings-on at 770 look like a kindergarten rumble.CRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-78078461682421580312009-10-27T14:48:39.311-04:002009-10-27T14:48:39.311-04:00rabble of cultists drank it down like cheap Kool-A...rabble of cultists drank it down like cheap Kool-Aid.<br /><br />Gut g'zucht... but about the wrong party...Michoelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-34821495137443744682009-10-27T14:32:16.764-04:002009-10-27T14:32:16.764-04:00You wrote, with quotation marks, that Rav Shach sa...You wrote, with quotation marks, that Rav Shach said that "they are not Jews". He didn't say that. What he actually said, in Yiddish was along the lines of for what are they Jews. Meaning by what claim are they authentically Jewish. I think your taaneh is actually on the Rambam who says that a m'challel Shabbos like an Akum l'chal davar.Michoel HaTipishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-83827103248616474082009-10-27T10:24:04.572-04:002009-10-27T10:24:04.572-04:00"Um, he didn't. You are grossly misrepres..."Um, he didn't. You are grossly misrepresenting him."<br /><br />Tipesh! You're gonna make me prove that he most certainly did.<br /><br />http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5761/vayigash/features.htm<br /><br /><br />"Then came the blow: `Gentlemen, would you like to hear something, without politicians? There is a "New Torah" in the ranks of the Left, a "New Torah." Nobody talks about Shabbat; no one fasts on Yom Kippur. <b>If so, what makes them Jewish?</b> The Left has severed the Jewish nation from its past.'<br /><br />"Now everything was clear. The tension in the auditorium broke. Without talking politics, G-d forbid, HaRav Shach stated explicitly that the Left was taboo, off-limits. Without even hinting at politics, <b>HaRav Shach brought into question the Jewishness of the Left.</b> He came to the conclusion that the Left has a new Torah without Shabbat, without Kippur, and that it has cut itself off from its Jewish past."<br /><br /><br />This is not my interpretation but comes from the very "Degel haTorah" stooges I mention above. Today, decades later, the useful idiots try to cover up this unsavory past with denial, lies and even outright threats (my own Rabbonim have had direct experience with the latter point). However, the historical facts are undeniable; your "Rosh Yeshiva" said these vile, hateful things about fellow Jews and the rabble of cultists drank it down like cheap Kool-Aid.<br /><br />We are all fortunate that today's Yeshivishe Gedolim (e.g. Rav Eliyashiv, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman) have abandoned this execrable sentiment and endeavored to heal the rifts left in this man's wake.CRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-20040436348645535632009-10-26T16:25:02.989-04:002009-10-26T16:25:02.989-04:00"Personally, I think it unsurprising (though ..."Personally, I think it unsurprising (though still appalling) that REMMS would use language like "they are not Jews"."<br /><br />Um, he didn't. You are grossly misrepresenting him.Michoelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-18011661273766755832009-10-23T11:01:20.913-04:002009-10-23T11:01:20.913-04:00"Check this out:
(Defenders of the Faith: In..."Check this out:<br /><br />(Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox Jewry. Poster on pg. 304. By Samuel C. Heilman)"<br /><br />That is a third-hand account of a denial coupled with some firey bluster attempting to bully the dissenters into silence. It is not very convincing without reference to the original remarks.<br /><br />Personally, I think it unsurprising (though still appalling) that REMMS would use language like "they are not Jews". He did so in a very public forum in 5750 in which he said of the Kibbutzniks "What makes them Jewish?". And that Degel HaTorah birdcage rag, the Trusty Rusty Nail (a.k.a. Yated Ne'eman), reported the relevant paragraph in full. Frankly, the assertions about the earlier remarks are rendered quite believable by this gleeful admission on the part of the Degel HaTorah factota (the Niftar at this article's lede among them).<br /><br />I think it was Joe Stalin who once said not to believe a rumor until it is officially denied. ;-)CRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-47401860669320697072009-10-23T10:59:01.843-04:002009-10-23T10:59:01.843-04:00Ironic that all these years after the Mihu Yehudi ...Ironic that all these years after the Mihu Yehudi fiasco, the greater Jewish world has come to the conclusion that it is in fact the Lubavitchers that need to be isolated from the greater tzibbur because of their minnus.Snagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-48308603470313854742009-10-22T18:32:25.736-04:002009-10-22T18:32:25.736-04:00For those that aren't aware, CR's comments...For those that aren't aware, CR's comments are a direct repeat of what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said to R' Tzvi Kahane (10 Sivan, 5750):<br /><br />video.moshiach.ru/dollars/zvi_kaana.wmv<br /><br />hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15972&pgnum=338Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-13543150454146633422009-10-22T18:26:38.745-04:002009-10-22T18:26:38.745-04:00To "Not Gullible said...":
Are you sure...To "Not Gullible said...":<br /><br />Are you sure R' Shach actually said that? <br /><br />Check this out:<br /><br />(Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox Jewry. Poster on pg. 304. By Samuel C. Heilman)<br /><br />"I have heard claims made in my name that at a gathering connected with the upcoming elections, I said the people of Chabad are not Jews. I publicly announce that in malice do they distort my words! I spoke in Hebrew, and this is what I said: what they [Chabad] do is not the "Jewish" way. They distorted my words on purpose to damage and libel me for they think that from this they will derive some benefit and gather more votes in these elections. And when they claimed that I called them the children of an impure woman, I testify before heaven and earth that I never said words such as these but only criticized their effort to build a ritual bath that was not in line with the standards of the Chazon Ish, may the memory of this righteous man be a blessing... I do not forgive anyone who fabricates words on his own and then says that I said them. And with this I request that each and every one will pass these words to his fellow"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-5977319147659558632009-10-22T15:19:18.796-04:002009-10-22T15:19:18.796-04:00What are you guys trying to prove?
The facts are o...What are you guys trying to prove?<br />The facts are out there for all to see, plain as day. What the Lubavitcher Rebbe achieved is a Jewish spiritual renaissance which we continue to enjoy today. Fifty years of service to Jews and Judaism everywhere is hard to argue with. That he made himself available to ALL types of Jews makes him unique. So does the fact that what he built continues to serve millions of Jews today, be it a backpacker in India, businessmen in China, or a Rabbi in Europe. The success of Chabad worldwide, as well as the existence and scale of todays 'Bal Teshuva' movement, bear ample witness to the fact that the LR's vision was both farsighted and correct.<br />To compare Rav Schach to the LR in terms of Jewish leadership is simply ludicrous, and does him a grave disservice. While RS was a renowned Rosh-Yeshiva, and the final word in Litvish yeshva circles for many years, he was not a world leader. Most frum Jews did not accept his authority, and he was not a halachic authority. In fact, its fair to say that 95% of the Jews outside of Israel never even knew of his existence. Why should they - nothing he did or said could even remotely affect them?! Within the frum community, his constant attacks on Chabad, Religious Zionists, and the secular, were seen as counter-productive, if not downright petty and vicious. Sadly, this has become his legacy. <br />So to all you fixated automatons, give it a rest- please.<br />Yes, there remain some questions about Chabad, why they don't sleep in the sukkah, SOME disagree with their method of constructing mikvaos, etc. And there are many, some would say much more serious, questions about those who claim to follow RS. Why have they invented a new way, of sitting in kollel all day while the wife slaves 3 jobs- a setup never seen before in Torah history, why they lack even basic ahavas-yisroel, etc.<br />So every group has 'issues' that can be picked at 'ad infinitum'. But to compare a world leader of Jews with a Rosh Yeshiva in Benei-beraq is simply absurd.Mike Reichernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-18173975028860082042009-10-22T10:23:11.052-04:002009-10-22T10:23:11.052-04:00"I still don't understand the not sleepin..."I still don't understand the not sleeping in a suka shita,"<br /><br />This was a Minhag Yisroel from the times of the A"R and from earlier. The GR"A never complained about it despite knowing about it for certain. None of the Volozhiner Roshei Yeshiva ever complained about it. And they all interacted regularly with the Tzemach Tzedek and MaHaRaSh. R' Chaim Ozer never complained about it and interacted regularly with the RaShaB. It never became an issue until one Rav defied two centuries of acceptance and made it one about 30 years ago. For these reasons the Rebbe asserted that the sole motivation for doing so was to be Mecharker Riv. Furthermore, the Rebbe said that explanations were futile in such an environment because the "defenders of the faith" were really not seeking any.CRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-42317732336671018832009-10-21T12:53:03.268-04:002009-10-21T12:53:03.268-04:00"I still don't understand the not sleepin..."I still don't understand the not sleeping in a suka shita,"<br /><br />Tell you what, you explain to me how a women that uses a Mikvah Bor Al Gabbai Bor Remains a...., and her husband is a .....and their children are....<br /><br />you explain that statement to me and then I'll explain the 'not sleeping in a Suka shita'Not Gulliblenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-54594285821848442082009-10-21T11:46:07.555-04:002009-10-21T11:46:07.555-04:00Anon,9:57
the Rebbe never said anything negative o...Anon,9:57<br />the Rebbe never said anything negative on the Satmar Rov simple as that.He definitely had different shitohs as mivtza tefilin that he spoke by fabrengen to refute the questions that came up in his sefer al Hageula, even the brisker rov disagreed on his shita of Sitra Achra Miracles, as brought down in Lorencz book. <br />On MARAN he did talk but with no name, he considered him a irresponsible manhig, with one view if I say Morning he will say Night etc..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-58415420533592119232009-10-21T11:38:58.424-04:002009-10-21T11:38:58.424-04:00Schneur,
the fact is their are not too many Hun...Schneur, <br /> the fact is their are not too many Hungarians that left to the Lita to Yeshivahs, I knew another person in Willi R'Chaim Berger, that left to Telz from Hungary he had a shul on Rodney st, wrote some seforim on Shas but he kept his fully chasidic tradition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-86812815376047042982009-10-21T09:02:48.915-04:002009-10-21T09:02:48.915-04:00Anon of 9:57,
I really think you are barking up th...Anon of 9:57,<br />I really think you are barking up the wrong tree. It is a gevaldig maaleh of the Litvish that they are understated and refer to their g'dolim with an affectionate "Reb". And that is how Tzig was using it as well. Hey, there is lot's of better stuff on this blog to get infuriated about!Michoelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-31356182519265936652009-10-20T22:59:32.271-04:002009-10-20T22:59:32.271-04:00Moshe Shmuel Shapiro Zt"l and talmidim singin...Moshe Shmuel Shapiro Zt"l and talmidim singing R' Baruch Ber's Sim Sholom.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICi0qeQV98kSDRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-79436354587501837642009-10-20T21:57:38.804-04:002009-10-20T21:57:38.804-04:00Simple question yes or no...
Did the Rebbe not st...Simple question yes or no...<br /><br />Did the Rebbe not strongly imply bad things which he knew and fully understand would create sinas chinam by Lubavichers to other frummer yidden when he made veiled references to the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Shach (you wouldn't like it if your Nasi Doreinu was called Reb Mendy).<br /><br />Of course he didn't curse out gedolim openly....but show me where any gadol spoke about the Rebbe by name.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-699580572501631832009-10-20T21:35:44.372-04:002009-10-20T21:35:44.372-04:00R' Moshe Shmuel' Torah is gorvehete Torah....R' Moshe Shmuel' Torah is gorvehete Torah. It is very difficult- even the biurim. You have to know the inyanim cold before you open up and get confused with all the favorpehenhe rishonim he finds (not just the Riy Migash) and the different old texts that he was into.<br /><br />In the tedious/hard on the brain aspect, it is similar to the Chazon Ish; obviously not the mehalech which is Brisk with mutzeray/hurevanya/taking it to the end/ working out the cheshbones, not just focusing on the maskones like the Brisker seforim<br /><br />The amount of pages and simanim he dedicated to the Rov's short shtickle on the beginning of Bava Kamma is a wonderous site. <br /><br />His songs weren't bad...<br /><br />How those divrey bizoyen got bast the censor is beyond me...Not Briskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813820881313898157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-3886085380879325662009-10-20T21:14:25.543-04:002009-10-20T21:14:25.543-04:00Anon5 Wrote:He fought head on with the Rebbe
about...Anon5 Wrote:He fought head on with the Rebbe<br />about many issues such as...<br /><br />מיהו יהודי<br />שלמות הארץ<br />חזות דתית<br />He did not fight, he did not give these issues his priority the same way that lubavitch does not give them ANY priority todayprioritynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-73255590655014982822009-10-20T18:17:25.674-04:002009-10-20T18:17:25.674-04:00The son of Rav Teichtal( a Munkatcher Chasid) trav...The son of Rav Teichtal( a Munkatcher Chasid) traveled to Lithuania to study in Slobodka.<br />Rabb Y.M. Schlesinger a yekke went from Frankfurt to Berlin to Nitra and from there to Lita.<br />The figures from Hungary are not very accurate , because by definition all non frum people were Neolog , where as in Lithuania and Poland even Bundist and many Communists went to shul, ate kosher meat and were buried in the same cemetaries as chassidm.<br />Rabbi Meyer Berlin in his memoirs describes walking along a main shopping aveneue in Pest with the chief rabbi Koppel Riech. Rav Reich was boasting that all Pest Jews are shomrei shabbes, yet R. Berlin kept passing stores with Jewish names pen for business, he mentioned this to the rav , R. Reich replied oh those are Neologs they are not Jews !!schneurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-50038924635596335852009-10-20T16:02:32.607-04:002009-10-20T16:02:32.607-04:00Schneur - There were problems all over between the...Schneur - There were problems all over between the wars. No one ever said that Hungary was immune to these problems. My grandmother was from Munkatch and told me all about those times (she still considers herself an avowed Socialist!)<br /><br />However, the problems were greater and deeper in Poland and Lita than in Hungary. There was difinately a greater percentage of the youth that stayed frum and went to yeshivas in Hungary than in Poland/Lita.<br /><br />But, whoever tries to point a rosy picture of anywhere between the wars is fooling themselves. <br /><br />In regards to your earlier (11;50) post, there were hungarian bochurim who went to learn in Lita? The land where women didn't even cover their hair? You should talk to a hungarian sometime and hear the disdain they had for Lita. I have never heard of even one hungarian bochur going to learn in Lita. Help me if I am missing someone obvious.AKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13084425.post-5465628320318977532009-10-20T12:25:09.185-04:002009-10-20T12:25:09.185-04:00The Hungarian survivors have created a mythical pi...The Hungarian survivors have created a mythical picture of Torah life after WW 1 in greater Hungary. Talk to any honest and objective survivor about the matzav in "frum "cities like Munkatz, Bergszaz, Siget etc, you will find Zionism super strong among the youth etc. The gymnasiums were competing with the yeshivas for the youth and we are not takling about Neolog , but Orthodox. Exactly how many "ORTODOX" bachurim were in the yeshivas hailing from Pest or Oradea(Grossvardein) or Temishvar??<br />The Satmarer rebbe was so disgusted with the situation in Oberland that he called for a new "teilling".In a recent issue of the weekly Nayes Bericht there was a fascinating article about the problem of a great many Marmorasher bachurim who left to Pest and behaved in shall we say a very negative manner. it was so serious to draw the Satmarer Rebbe to Budapest to discuss this issue with the Desher rebbe and rav Baruch Rabinowitch of Munkatch and the local Orthodox communal leaders who were very woried abou this new phenomenom. A proposal to direct them to exisiting yeshivas was opposed by some of the rabbonim who were scared that they would infect the bachurim already in the yeshivas.<br />A proposal : I will not exagerate the Matzav in Lita, if you do not exagerate the matzav in greater Hungary.Schneurnoreply@blogger.com