Wednesday, August 15, 2007

Rabbinically sanctioned violence


(the late Klausenborger Rov, zt"l)

When it comes to Jewish sectarian violence Satmar takes the cake, hands down. Yes, some of will find random instances of violence by other groups, and much of it would be of the "intra-sect" variety, but in recent memory they are the standard bearers of that category. Yet for some reason, I guess since the Satmar Rov was so revered, the blame never reached the top, for the most part, unless you speak to your local Klausenberger, he'll tell you otherwise. Even the secular Israeli papers eulogized him as a "lover of Israel and a hater of Medinat Israel," realizing that HIS was a distinctive love/hate relationship. So, the SR was able - by virtue of his total image - to escape the tab of sanctioning violence, even if all that violence was done to either protect him or to further his standing in a respective community.

Which leads to me to this:

Do all Rebbes and Rabbonim get that kind of VIP treatment? definitely not. Why I remember a supposed "bombshell picture" of an old woman beaten and bruised, a daughter of a Chassidishe Rebbe, that was actually a fake, that was supposed to incriminate a Rebbe of condoning violence even though there never was that history amongst him or his Chassidim. Not only that, but even when his Chassidim were on the receiving end of violence not see since 1945 there too they were to blame, because they should've known. Why? just because the Rebbe wasn't liked by his (jealous) peers. To be fair: the late great Belzer Rov, who's Chassidim (and his father's) were know to be big Shleggers and who's tales of violent tirades often made it to the Yiddish press, also managed to escape the title of "condoning violence" by virtue of the fact that nobody could imagine him ever agreeing to such methods. The fact that Rebbes supposedly had Ruach HaKodesh, and definitely who was doing what at all times, notwithstanding.

So, the lesson to be learned is this: if you're a Charedi Jewish group who has issues with a rival group you need to set yourself up as follows: You need to either terrorize the press into giving you good PR, so that all others will see you as a bunch of do-gooders, or build your reputation with good deeds to start. Then later on , when things get really hot and heavy, and you feel like you're losing control, use that large dose of good PR to beat the living daylights out of your rivals, thereby consolidating your power, all the while never having to answer for any of your violent actions. For those of you who've already been blacklisted, realize this: this line of reasoning may have a reverse affect. You may be accused - by the violent ones - of doing anything and everything - I mean the good deeds - solely for the PR and the money, while the violent ones will have thousands of good excused why they "NEEDED" to beat the daylights out of a father of 12.

34 comments:

  1. I can tell you, people, that Tzig found none of this particular "hate" in Chabad - I grew up hearing none of this, even through the Pinye Korf era! Thank you (I guess) for the "education"... Is this standard Chaseedeshe education (or gossip)?

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  2. Yes, Guravitzer, I never did hear it in Chabad, this is standard Chassidishe Mikveh talk. Just not in the Satmarer Mikveh....

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  3. No hate in Chabad?

    I would use this blog as exhibit A of evidence of Chabad hate for all things but Chabad.

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  4. >>Not only that, but even when his Chassidim were on the receiving end of violence not see since 1945 there too they were to blame, because they should've known. Why? just because the Rebbe wasn't liked by his (jealous) peers.

    No one was jealous of that Rebbe. The SR was probably the greatest Rebbe/talmid chachom in the chassidish world. And he was not running around convincing his ignorant cult that he is the messiah. How could you even compare? What did Lubavitch ever do for the world, aside from making more ignorant clones? NOTHING. At least the Satmar Rebbe had substance.

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  5. >>No one was jealous of that Rebbe.

    I have a major problem with Lubavitch sheep constantly parroting nonsense like great men being jealous (kaveeyochol!!!) of the Rebbe, z"l. The need to reframe issues despite the enormous problem on his part in failing to fix his cult was terrible. That's why he alienated the ENTIRE frum world. And this is why his followers, in probably around 100 years) will not longer be Orthodox Jews. Wait, you'll see.

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  6. I'll see this in a hundred years, ok. I'll take that as a blessing.

    My friend, great men never cease to be jealous, just ask your local Mussarite.

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  7. So then you are willing to acknowledge that the Rebbe was jealous of the preeminence of the Great Men who censured his erratic, behavior? To paraphrase your post, why don't you worry about Rabbinically sanctioned ignorance in your fold? Why not focus on the problems in your cult, THERE IS SO MUCH to write about!!!

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  8. my friend:

    the attackers, the ones who attacked his every move, they're the ones who seem to be jealous, not the one who minds his own business and does what he feels is right.

    Get it?

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  9. >>the attackers, the ones who attacked his every move, they're the ones who seem to be jealous, not the one who minds his own business and does what he feels is right.

    You are reframing an issue because you refuse to get it (or maybe you just can't).

    The Rebbe was NOT attacked by attackers, he was censured by some of his generation's greatest scholars, tsadikim and leaders for mistakes he could have easily rectified. You can assail this as an attack, as that seems to be extremely convenient--especially given your agenda to demonize some great people. But it won't work--not for those who know and understand history.

    The Rebbe was censured for only one failure. To state so caterofically that he was criticized for every move--as you did--is to lie. He did not mind his own business as his messianic agenda was palpable while he was alive--not to mention today. And it affects Jews all over because of his prostelyzing efforts which would reduce unsuspecting ballei teshuva to ignorant clones parroting the same evil the Rebbe refused to stop (because "he felt it was right"?).

    Like I wrote before, you would do much better sticking with your own. You do not have a leg to stand on once you begin to insult, chastise, berate, and act in all other kinds of evil, insiduous behavior toward Jews who are far better than you will ever, and I do mean EVER, be.

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  10. He was censored for only one agenda? What planet did you arrive from in the last ten years?

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  11. Anon 9:34
    "Satmar Rebbe greatest talmid chochom of all the chasidishe rebbes"
    You would not see it in his works. His 2 volumes of Teshovus are very weak, it could be reprinted in a size of a small Kol Yakov sidur and if you would eliminate the teshuva to Reb Pinchus Hirshprung (who BTW never asked him) on Limud Tora Lenoshim thats printed in his magnum opus the Veyoel Moshe
    For a rebbe a Goan Olum just look at his nemesis the 7 volume Divrie Yatziv that was written only in his latter years in Kiryath Sanz and some in Union City after he was chased by his uncles goons and they were in the (thousands bombarding him at the infamous motzei shabos) from Williamsburgh a town that he built yiddishkiet before his Uncle arrived to the US
    You dont know beans,

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  12. Guravitzer
    Yes, his big scale Ahavath Yisroel Lechol Asher Beshem Yisroel Yechno Ad Mesiras Nefesh alienated many of his his brethren that were not ready to look further then their nose. Even tough after years passing they needed jobs for yungeliet that are not learning stock but they are still Bnie Torah according to Beis Yakov culture, the yeshiva world started doing kiruv as if they invented the wheel.

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  13. Didn't the followers of the Rama"sh do dirty tricks against the Rasha"g in 1950?

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  14. Tzig
    A)You are referring to the attack on Rebbetzin Chana Gourary and are calling the picture a fake.Nice rewriting of history.Nobody has ever called that incident a fake, actually I believe a monetary settlement was reached to preclude the possibility of a charge of incitement to violence, vehameyvin yovin.
    B)I find it funny when you claim /imply that Satmar somehow has good p.r connections with newspapers therefore the stories don't get out.You are funny.Satmar has the worst p.r department of all!That's why you hear so many stories.On the other hand Lubavitch are undoubtebly the kings of p.r and good connections with the media (in fact some have accused you of being on the Labavitch p.r payroll).
    C)This is just a question of your logic. 'If you ask a Klausenberger you''ll get a different answer' (you were trying to imply something nasty about Satmar)Let me ask you:Do you ask avowed foes for opinions on their adversaries?What would you expect to hear?Good things?Would you ask Rav Shach about his opinon on Lubavitch and than formulate an opinion based on that or use it as 'proof'? (man you are weak in the logic department)
    For the record I don't think the Lubavitcher Rebbe condoned violence and neither do I think that R'Yoel condoned or agreed to violence.Btw, I wish you'd stop blaming the attack on Vechter on the whole of Satmar instead of what you know is the truth:A couple of thugs!Do you want ALL JEWS to be seen as ganovim just because there are a few heimishe yidden sitting in prison???

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  15. an ailmesher

    Nu, spill the beans, lets air out the facts,
    There is 1 fact that I know that 1 of the biggest mashpiem in Chabad Eretz Yisroel ( Tzig probably knows the person)was banned to come to 770 for years, for the sin of harassing the Rashag,

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  16. >>He was censored for only one agenda? What planet did you arrive from in the last ten years?

    After reading this question, an intelligent observer can only wonder what planet did YOU arrive from in the last ten years? Why is it that you are so dishonest with yourself?

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  17. >>You would not see it in his works. His 2 volumes of Teshovus are very weak, it could be reprinted in a size of a small Kol Yakov sidur and if you would eliminate the teshuva to Reb Pinchus Hirshprung (who BTW never asked him) on Limud Tora Lenoshim thats printed in his magnum opus the Veyoel Moshe

    Clearly you don't know your beans. I am not disputing the fact that the Klausenberger may very likely have been the SR's equal in learning. I would add that both blow the Lubavitcher Rebbe out of the water--especially given the fact that neither did to the klal what the Rebbe insisted on doing--destroying innocent Jews who did not know better to believe in another Jesus; and think its legitamite.

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  18. 'His teshuvos are very weak'
    Says who??People who hate Satmar.Ok!Now I get it:So ask people who hate Lubavitch and ask them what they think about the Lubavitchers learning abilities.I don't think you want to.....
    Guys:Whether you agree, disagree, don't agree but need to draw the part line,PLEASE,please, don't lower your level down to the Tzigs and his ilk.He is a big tipesh an immature kid with no substance.
    So for starters:No 'proofs' allowed to prove any point 'just because so and so said so'.That is the Tzig way to bring 'proof' from a messed up yingerman who hated his mom about the qualifications of an odom godol beyisroel.To bring 'proof' from a Klausenburger , avowed haters of Satmar about SATMAR.
    Small 'the tzig way' of proof I saw recently:Unfortunately in Shanghai a young Lubavitcher by the name of Chanowitz passed away(he had been sick for years, see this weeks Bais Moshiach)so 'obviously the Snags are to blame! But wait a sec! 6 other bochurim, non Lubavitchers also succumbed to ilnesses that were rife amongst refugees especially in the hot and humid weather??
    That is the 'tzig' way.Ah prosteh bulvan

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  19. If you have any evidence that the photo of Mrs Gourarie is fake, you have had ample opportunity to reveal it, and still do.

    Or, you could be lying.

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  20. Gimmel Tammuz

    I try to talk factual, you are just spitting curses as a mad trailer driver,you forgot to show the finger.

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  21. 'Why the NEEDED to beat the daylights out of a father of 12'

    You are probably referring to the Vechter case.So I'm curious, if he had been a father of 13 would it be ok?Or 11? Basically I'm trying to show you the emotions (of others..)that you are parroting.What difference does the ammount of kids he had make?
    You are also a parrot because 25 years ago you were 7 and never knew how many kids he had(or had any connection to Lubab inc)
    This is one story from 25 years ago involving maybe 10 people out of a community of tens of thousands!!! Is it fair to black list everyone because of this case?
    You also know full well, that had a Lubab turned Satmar infiltrated the Lubab system and turned kids against their fathers that he would get the same treatment.Apparently the reatment worked as vile as it was, Lubab learned to stop being missionaries where they are not wanted!

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  22. Tzig Bulvanovivitch
    in the last few years Satmar established a Shita PR organization to infiltrate in aguda and misrachi Yeshivoth that buchorim should revolt against the faculty and the parents on the issues of voting and government moneys, in there newspapers they claim that they brainwashed by now, hundreds of mushed brains. Does a parent have some right to physical assault?

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  23. Still no evidence of a "fake photo".

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  24. I am not sure why Tzig claimed it to be a fake. Do you have more information to share?

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  25. I'm questioning the authenticity of the picture, not whether or not she was attacked. This has been in non-partisan/anti-Chabad sites. People that knew her, and her slight frame, can attest to the fact that the woman pictured was not Chana Gurary.

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  26. I don't know - I saw only a picture of her face, not whole body, and it is similar to what I saw on the video of the Rebbetzin's deposition.

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  27. Now the Tzig is rewriting history.Wonderful.
    The reason it was not easy to recognize her was because the guy did such a job on her.I've seen the pictures and it's horrible.
    In fact apparently Lubavitch had to pay Barry off so there should not be a problem with 'someone' having incited to violence.
    But what would you expect the Tzig to say? The Truth??!

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  28. Gentleman, the Rebbe gave them the money his grandfather and her husband - the Rashag - had left to him so they wouldn't pursue the courtcase. Let's stop talking about paying off. Perhaps the Rebbe thought it legitimately belonged to them and would have a better use this way.

    Put it this way - if it had gone to court, and the Rebbe had been vindicated, would it had been less of a Chillul Hashem? The inital headlines would have been "Rabbi incites riot". It affects every Rabbi in the area, not just the Rebbe. Being that one of their missions was to force the Rebbe to testify and cause him discomfort, this was a major loss for them, money notwithstanding.

    In fact, this speaks volumes about what the Rebbe was willing to do to avoid a courtcase, which tells us how much the courtcase over the Seforim was necessary.

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  29. this whole story is a old fashioned blood libel from paranoid anti chabad haters.

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  30. Guravitzer:
    First you admit that they were paid off, than you say 'perhaps they were owed it'.Interesting that suddenly they were paid off ONLY after Rebbitzen Chana was almost killed.
    I hope you realize what would have happened if Barry had persued action about the assault and Lubavitch inc and yes, maybe the Rebbes own culpability.You know the woman was not attacked in a vacuum.
    About the Tzig:First he calls it a 'fake', than he is only 'questioning the authenticity'.Nu,nu. The velt zogt a glaich vertel:A gevorener iz erger vee a geboirener.Any, serious Lubavitcher brought up in the chassidus knows that Chana was attacked and the picture is no fake , the jhonny-come-lately is the only one taynening 'it's a fake'.He needs to prove his credentials.In the meantime he has just proved what a shoiteh he is.
    (Btw, nobody thinks the guy who attacked her was not a bit disturbed, but see, that's the problem when you rait ohn people, the meshugenner will do a mayseh)
    Veoid vehu hoikor:When it comes to faking pics Lubabs are the worst case offenders":Addind yarmulkehs to people, coloring grey hats and cutting out offensive grandkids.Funny that these same people should be accusing others.

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  31. I am truly not sure what your point was. Would you care to explain exactly what point you are trying to make? You can read all of my feelings on this on mentalblog.

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  32. There MUST be a way that we blame the Satmar rebbe and his chasididm for the bashing of Rebetzen Chana.

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  33. Why not blame Don Corleone as well?

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  34. Anonymous said...

    Anon 9:34
    "Satmar Rebbe greatest talmid chochom of all the chasidishe rebbes"
    You would not see it in his works. His 2 volumes of Teshovus are very weak, it could be reprinted in a size of a small Kol Yakov sidur and if you would eliminate the teshuva to Reb Pinchus Hirshprung (who BTW never asked him) on Limud Tora Lenoshim thats printed in his magnum opus the Veyoel Moshe
    For a rebbe a Goan Olum just look at his nemesis the 7 volume Divrie Yatziv that was written only in his latter years in Kiryath Sanz and some in Union City after he was chased by his uncles goons and they were in the (thousands bombarding him at the infamous motzei shabos) from Williamsburgh a town that he built yiddishkiet before his Uncle arrived to the US
    You dont know beans,

    Friday, August 17, 2007 6:00:00 PM
    -----------------------------------

    The KR didn't build Willi. Talmidim of the Satmar Rov including Yidel Rosenberg (Matzah bakery & camps)did most of the work. When the Satmar Rov came they told him they were going back to THEIR Rebbe. The same thing with R' Moishe Blum of Bobov (Later a mechutan of Bobover Rebbe). The Klausenberger spoke out against both Satmar AND Bobov. In der heim the Bobovers would have murdered him, alot worse than Satmar did. He never went to see the Bobover.

    Re: the tshuvos. Majority were lost during the war. After the war he was primarily building mosdos and kehilla. He stopped performing most rabbonishe functions such as drashos on Shabbos Shuva and Shabbos HaGadol.

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