שמונה עשר עשרות מאות אלף זהובים
Rottenberg.verified Complaint against Skver Rebbe and Shaul Spitzer
"המלך לא דן ולא דנין אותו, לא מעיד ולא מעידין אותו," (משניות סנהדרין פרק ב' משנה ב') - אזוי דארף זיין, עכ"פ. די שאלה איז נאר צו עס וועט אזוי זיין בנידו"ד. אין די אלעמען-באקאנטע "ספרים משפט" אין תשמ"ה-תשמ"ז איז י"ג כסלו געווארען א שטיקל יו"ט, ווייל די געריכט האט דעמאלסט געזאגט אז דער ליובאוויטשער רבי, זצוק"ל, דארף נישט גיין זאגען עדות, כאטש אז דער צד שכנגד האט זייער געוואלט אז ער זאל יא, מכמה טעמים מובנים. חסידים האבען זיך באנוצט מיט יענער משנה און האבען געברענגט א ראי' אז אזוי איז עס. דא איז שווער צו וויסן ווי עס וועט זיך אויסלאזן, צו דער סקווערער רבי וועט דארפן גיין אין באריכט צו נישט. אפשר וועט א דעפאזיציע גאר זיין גענוג? ימים יגידו
אין יעדענספאל וועט עס נישט זיין דאס ערשטע מאל וואס א סקווערער רבי ווערט אנגעקלאגט אין געריכט איבער געלט זאכען
ס'האט זיך עפעס געבראכן דא אין סקווער. דאס אז א חסידישער איד קלאגט אהן בערכאות א רבי צו וועלכע ער פלעגט - כאטש אמאל - אריינגיין צו אים מיט א קוויטל אין געריכט איז גאר א הארבע זאך וואס ס'איז שווער צו משער שיין די תוצאות דערפון. איך גלייב אז מ'קען זאגען אז ס'איז דאס ערשטע מאל וואס אזאנס פאסירט! מ'האט שוין געהערט אז א חסיד זאל אנקלאגן א ספרדי'שען מקובל, אבער אן אייגענעם רבי'ן?! די יונגווארג וועט עס זיכער זייער שאטן, און אפשר גאר די אלטע לייט אויכעט. מ'דארף מתפלל זיין אז ס'זאל נישט זיין קיין שלעכטע תוצאות דערפון.
95 comments:
What's your point? Mr. Rottenberg doesn't deserve justice and compensation for his pain and suffering?He should be denied such compensation because the shefelech will have their bubble burst about the nature of life in New Skver and on planet Earth?The halachic issues of going to court I leave to Mr. Rottenberg. I'm sure he's consulted with" big" Rabbis.Certainly there is ample prescedence for even the biggest of the big Rabbis going to "gericht."
I can't catch a break, it seems
Of course he deserves justice, I never addressed that aspect of it. I was just saying. That's all.
Your blog is a breath of fresh air keep it up and keep up the Keren Hatorah!!!!!
Hirshel-OK.Understood.
Hirshel, this topic is not entertainment.. this is real, a (so called) rebbe from one of the nicest yiddishe kehilos should come to this! wow for us! I'm glad that the claim is not on attempted murder c"v a money claim can be settled
al shaul v'al h'dum..
shlechta totzaos, he almost got killed!!!
The reason the Rebbe was not called is because the Gourary family did not wish their father Rashag to testify ,(BG did not want that ,to protect his father's failing helath) nor did the Rashag wish to testify for reasons you can only imagine. So a deal was reached BG's lawyers would not cross examine the Rebbe and the same would be done in regards Rashag.Didn't anyone ever wonder if the Rashag was so much of a mekusher why didn't he testify or insist that he wished to testify,at the trial on behalf of the Rebbe ?
In the final trial (the case Judge Sifton combined where Chabad demanded legal fees etc and Barry demanded justice on behalf of the betaing his mother took in 770) the Rebbe was in fact deposed in private al yedai video camera as I recall.
I doubt the Grand rabbi of NS willl ever be cross examined.
Shneur you have an overactive imagination, did you drink too much coffee?
Comparing David Twersky to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ziy"a, is a tremendous chutzpeh to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
EVERYONE in Lubavitch knew that the Rebbe was against violence in all forms. He spoke about it so many times that there was no question about his position.
David Twersky wouldn't condemn the violence that took place over the course of many months. There is no question that, by his silence, he condoned the violence. And when Rottenberg was finally attacked and ended up in the hospital, it took almost a week for Twersky to say anything - and what he said was very unimpressive.
Contrast that to a few bochurim who attacked a rov in 770 - and depite the boishes there was no tzaar, ripui or sheves - and the Rebbe expelled them from shaychus to Lubavitch! (Late Mems, early Nuns.) It took quite a bit of effort by Dovid Raskin and others for them to be rehabilitated.
As far as I am concerned, the Skverer Rebbe passed away in 1968 and his position has never been filled. Comparing his son to any Rebbe worth the title is just wrong.
Schneur
I thought that you know the facts,of the case, you are acting as Mr. Know It All.
The facts are different. The other side (Sitra achra)needed that Chabad should admit that Mamad money is private money and not public money, the argument of the other side was, that the FR spent money for his SIL expanses in Berlin.Chasidim tried to avoid it, but then it was agreed that a affidavit will be read, there was no video.
Zalmen
Shneur will jump on you, that the Rebbe was mum on the Buchers beating of Chana
Anonymous 6:24,
I was talking about a different story. You would have realized that if you read what I wrote!
Schneur
".Didn't anyone ever wonder if the Rashag was so much of a mekusher why didn't he testify or insist that he wished to testify,at the trial on behalf of the Rebbe ?"
Again Mr know it all, talks from his elbow,
The Reshag filed a affidavit for the side of the Chasidim, Rosenfeld his Sec. brought it in court.
I believe that the case as it stands now will be thrown out of court on the part of Skverer Rebbe, Unless Sussman produces some evidence of a hint of instigation.So far he has noting, he is a hot air attorney.
Under the threat of suing his uncle personally for instigating ( expert were ready to testify what the threat of "chasidishe bombes" meant)the attempted murder on his mother Barry Gurari walked away with more money from the out of court settlement, then he would have earned by selling of his share of the library
I hope Square take this page of lubavitch as a lesson and settles with Rottenberg out of court.
Those experts who can explain to the court how chasidishe bombas operate (with condemnations) are still around
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2008/01/revealing-bloggers-identities.html
skver rebbi should go in court, and let him come out forcefully against such acts.
nobody would imagine rav aron of belz going to court even against his mother-in-law (whover knows about will understand me...), but yet belz of today did go in secular court against his mother, and so did munkatch rebbi go in court against his father. both cases were in israel. but still.
in contrast to that the bobov rebbi did go in court not against anybody but the the opposite do defend a yid. even that no rebbi would do.
all of you out there should learn from the holy midus of bobov. skver rebbi is in self denial he better come out of his shell.
Are there any sources for the Rokeach vs Grunwald case?Calling on all Belzers or Gevezeners
Twerpsky will settle out of court, fast. He'll also make sure to take good care of Spitzer the hoiz bochur while he sits to make sure Spitzer doesn't talk too much.
Otherwise, there will be Skvere-Otisville and Skvere-BP the way there is Spinka-Otisville-BP and Spinka-Williamsburgh etc.
Skvere will disintegrate within the next 10 years. Many will go OTD or become modern; others will join the ranks of Chassidim without a Rebbe in Monsey or BP. A few will probably go to KJ because they can't live in the outside world.
bobov chusid. you mean r' aron of belz, his step mother not his mother in law, who was his aunt (he married his father's brother r' shmiel rokeach.
Once again gemoros taken out of context
to serve Baaley Dimyonos. The LR was not a Melech neither is Rabbi David Twersky. The correct Tzushtell regarding rabbi twersky
is Parness Hamatil Aymo Al hatzibur Shelo Lshem Shomayim ( that's being charitable..).
Dinoy is ayn lo chelek loilom habo. See
Mschta Rosh Hashono and the Ramban Shaar Hagmul.
He doesn't have a Din Oyse Mayseh Amcho.
There is no Chshash of arko'ois. Your kids won't be harmed.
You sit them down an explain the difference between
Shabse Tzvi Ym"sh and Lehavil Hrh"k R Yonoson Eibishutz ZY"A.
If you're not boring they'll love the stories.
The man is a Rodef. The correct tzushtell in
Sanhedrin is "nitn lhatzilo- b'nafshoi"
If we're worried about shlechte toitzuois a hanhogo that produced close to 100
Kids nebech mchaliley Shabbos R"L over the last 2 years must be put out of business.
To deal with Rabbi Twersky alpi Toyre and remove him from public office is Bichlal Shoymer Mitzve Loy Yeyda Dovor Ro.
Only someone who doesn't know the yesurim of the tzubrochne Skverer yidden and the rishus of their Manhig can have such Sfeykess.
R Meir Soloveitch Shych"ye ben HaRav MBrisk says Bshem Dem Strelisker ZL - Shoymer Nafshois Chasidov Miyad reshoim yatzileim.-dos meint men fun di rebbes zeyerre!
If we're worried about shlechte toitzuois a hanhogo that produced close to 100
Kids nebech mchaliley Shabbos R"L over the last 2 years must be put out of business.
To deal with Rabbi Twersky alpi Toyre and remove him from public office is Bichlal Shoymer Mitzve Loy Yeyda Dovor Ro.
Only someone who doesn't know the yesurim of the tzubrochne Skverer yidden and the rishus of their Manhig can have such Sfeykess.
R Meir Soloveitch Shych"ye ben HaRav MBrisk says Bshem Dem Strelisker ZL - Shoymer Nafshois Chasidov Miyad reshoim yatzileim.-dos meint men fun di rebbes zeyerre!
Leaving my super massive ego aside (which needs a constant stream of publicity fluff stories , pictures kavod etc to feed it), the readers should decide themselves who they believe as far as final payments and settlements.
They can accept my version based on my involvement with Mr. Gourary at the time, or they are more than welcome to accept the Lubavitcher version of the story.
On the same basis they can accept the world's version that mashiach has not arrived or the version coming from 770 that he has arrived been identified and will return.
The choice is yours.
Either way I make no money off the decision.
1.The readers on this blog are confusing the various court cases involved in the Aguch case . There were 3 the original suit filed I may add by Aguch, the appeal and the final suit which I mentioned.That suit involved among other events the horrible beating of Rebbetzin Goruary by a tamim in 770 on Shabbos.
2. Filing an affadavit on behalf of the Rebbe is very much unlike testifying in person on behalf of your rebbe . That the Rashag was not prepared to do unless you guys have some evidence otherwise. perhaps ZG disguised himself as SG and testified. What did he have to lose at that point ?In fact the reason the Rebbe did not testify was that it was a trade off the rashag was not summoned to testify and neither was the Rebbe. By the time the final case came eto Judge Sifton the Rashag was leading shalsoh sudes in a better place and Luabvitch no longer had a bargaining chip in this regard. hence some normal people there convinced the Rebbe to settle for millions of dollars.(Of course if it was done earlier some fantastic claims in regarsd the court victory could not have been made and BG could still claim a place in Chabad history )
Yes indeed I do not ever recall the Leader of 770) being moche against the event in re his sister in law beaten by one of his followers. before you call Vinnie to do me in , I will add that I do not beleive the Rebbe had anything to do with the betaing but it happened in a place where he was the Moro Deasra.
Anon
"The LR was not a Melech neither"
is Man Malchie Rabonon a chazal? or a Dimyon
Anon
"is Parness Hamatil Aymo Al hatzibur Shelo Lshem Shomayim ( that's being charitable..). "
I don't think that enforcing a 1 Minyan code in town is ..... included in your accusation. It is not even a Chasidic thing, it was the norm in all kehilas in Germany Poland etc...
it is a takuna that a village is built on. Rottenberg zol zien gezunt had to listen according to halacha.
It has noting to do that the boy Spitzer and the people who were involved were idiots and overstepped their boundaries.In the times of the shtetels the Kehila had all powers to harass and menace you till you stayed in the tracks, but nobody was killed by them.Even Sussman has no way to proof that the Rebbe has done any instigation. If you have proof just pick up a phone and call his Goshen office.
I hope this skver rebbi gets out of this, but yet, i"m very happy that he's going to have to go thru this headace, lawers, money abouve all the charpus and beeshes. he's to long on the throne its about top to topple his regime, he uses his "own" religion to surround himself with power against his people, and there was no stopping him, finally he sees the stop sign.
if yosel waldman is taking sides with rottenberg for his agenda is one thing, though i personally think that rottenberg should not be seen any connection with waldman, it will only come back to hurt him. waldman is a hyper loud person, while rottenberg is a nice quiet persoft soft spoken.
It's ironic that Hasidim are claiming that the old time shtetlech had one shul and one ruv.
Who broke the rule of one ruv? What happened in Cluj? Who started new kehillos? Besides the fact that the citizens selected the Ruv and he was at their mercy for his job and wages. Does someone have an example in history of homogeneous town under the hegemony of one person?
Where is the R' Shlomo Kluger teshuva?
One more thing, any time you say something, they can't respond with anything coherent, Their answer is "did you learn Divrei Yoel?"
By World War 1 in Hungary most Orthodox kehillos had more than 1 shul. The issuew as not the shul but the kehillo.
1)"The LR was not a Melech neither"
is Man Malchie Rabonon a chazal? or a Dimyon"
Ken groiser lamdn bistu nit. Ober a klayn bisinkehe
Seychl megstu fort hobn. Man Malke is alpi Agodo. Alpi Halocho one must have a Din Melech regarding the Din of "Ein Donin"
You should give up TzenneRenne and open a Gemoro
2)"is Parness Hamatil Aymo Al hatzibur Shelo Lshem Shomayim ( that's being charitable..). "
I don't think that enforcing a 1 Minyan code in town is ..... included in your accusation. It is not even a Chasidic thing, it was the norm in all kehilas in Germany Poland etc..".
I refer to Rabbi twersky's general treatment of his Tzibur
I know the misery of these people
My mother is close to all his daughters
They look at the Chsidim like CATTLE.
Rabbi Twersky is an ish megushom an oyhev kessef loy yisba kessef. who
never learnt in his youth (as per R Avrum
Nisn Nayman who was his Chavrisse altz buchor) HaGUen R Elya ber Vachfogel Shyich"ye new him growing up and considers him GARBAGE. ( Heard it myself.)
Jail for him will be a big step in Vchol Hurishu Kulo
Kushon Tichleh Ki Saavir Memshelles Zudoin
Min Huuretz
So there was one more than one shul and more than one kehilla in Hungary. New Square is a new social experiment. Now we are seeing how feasible it is.
Schneur, people don't have a problem with the Skverer people, they have an issue with the administration.
If we're worried about shlechte toitzuois a hanhogo that produced close to 100
Kids nebech mchaliley Shabbos R"L over the last 2 years must be put out of business.
---
100 kids OTD over the past 2 years is sadly the score for many communities.
There are a couple of Chabad moisdos that have such a track record or worse out of about the same number of bochurim that passed through Skvere in the past 2 years. The "yeshivish" world probably has the same percentage or more going off.
Modern Orthodox has even more mechalelei Shabbos over the past 2 years percentage-wise if Faranak Margolese's statistics of 25% OTD in college are to be believed.
Sadly, these are the times we are living in.
Schneur of course was passed up for some high position in Chabad in his own puffed-up mind (perhaps second in command to Purim Rebbe Bere Moicher Sforim Gurary) so his great contribution of slinging dirt at the Rebbe and Chabad is certainly a great solution to the problem of OTD, Skvere, and anything else we have to face.
The real solution is probably "Lazer and Lipa" style Chassidus - less rigid and conformist, no community with a self-important rebbele whose only qualification is the right last name, no huge PR or fundraising apparatus, etc.
That is probably the closest to derech haBesht.
As for today's Chabad, the secular Jew of today is not the secular Jew of the 1960's. PR and glitz bring in both Jews and bucks nowadays. Lazer and Lipa are great for kiruv kroivim, not hafatza.
I don't much care for the Krinsky Kotlarsky Klan (KKK), but the shluchim they send out do manage to reach today's connected and materialistic generation of students and young people with their programs. The question is whether those programs have any real connection to Chassidus Chabad.
I also don't think the KKK will outlast either of the 2 K's and one is over 70 IIRC. What may happen afterward is that Chabad will become like Breslov and shluchim will develop into either sincere, but "new age" R' Lazer Brody's (or Simon Jacobsons) or cultish, dictatorial Moharoshes and whacko Berlands. People will then pick and choose the Chabad that is right for them. 770 will go from irrelevant as it is now to a complete fossil as the old generation passes on, others move on and only R-building whackos and a few bureaucrats of Chabad Inc. remain.
This will especially be the case after the next NYC mayoral election, when no matter what the crime problem in CH will take a turn from bad to much worse and balebatim will move to Monsey and other places where strong Chabad communities are developing. They will want to escape both the 71st precinct and the CHJCC/Chabad Inc - one causes physical damage by not responding to calls and the second causes damage beruchnius by not responding to our needs.
Anonymous
I think when you write "puffed up mind" you have me confused with some of your friends out on shlichus who need their pictures in the paper on a daily basis in cowboy outfits on motorcycles or in soccer outfits . Thats not me . Perhaps you have me confused with other shluchim who talk about having advanced degrees in kabbalisitic studies and so called "dayanus" and other advanced degrees from great institutions of learning like the "Rabbinical College of America in NJ. Perhaps you confuse me with your puffed up friends who need to supply their local jewish and non Jewish papers with weekly fluff stories how great they are. Perhaps you confuse me with the shluchim running around telling all that will listen about their physical plants, tuxedos and the beautiful women they pose with .
Perhaps you confuse me with shluchim who just have to appear on TV especially cable tv 1 click away from ...
Save your puff for your buddies in the so called 'field"
Perplexed
"What happened in Cluj? Who started new kehillos?"
correct you are.
1)Chasidim made separate shuls, based on a teshuvas radbaz, which is irrelevant in New Square.
2)but you agree that the non chasidic Kehilahs fought tooth and nail, to stop the separate shul, that is my point, that noting started in New Square.
Schneur,
What percentage of Shluchim do you think fit into the categories you described in your 2:35 comment?
Anon
"Seychl megstu fort hobn. Man Malke is alpi Agodo. Alpi Halocho one must have a Din Melech regarding the Din of "Ein Donin"
You should give up TzenneRenne and open a Gemoro"
Borech Hashem I learned many times Masechtas Sanhedrin with all rishonim and hilchos Melochim, It was always meant as a strong chasidic hergesh, It is just your arrogance that tries to blow hot air.
Those guys manage to at least get a few Yidden to keep kosher, or come to shul on Shabbos, or even keep Shabbos.
You just spend all day online with your silly conspiracy theories, justifying yourself.
As I said, this PR and glitz is what the secular Jew of today, the professional or businessman, responds to. No one except Failed Scotty Rosenberg takes you and your Rebbe Bere Moicher Sforim seriously - at best some of us like to read your ramblings for obscure facts the way we liked gathering facts to win at playing Trivial Pursuit in the old days. You are like Charlie Buttons - a crank whom everyone tolerates because there is something fun in his crankkeit.
It is very simple. Chabad went through hoops to get those sforim out of Communist Poland - Bere was nothing and contributed nothing. Bere Moicher Sforim just took sforim to make a quick buck. He could have cared less about the yerusha - if he did he'd have kept them for himself. Maybe Minna Mouse was the reshois behind it all. I actually know someone from Anash who is related to both her and the Gurarys and therefore bought and sold stock through Minna Mouse before the trouble. He doesn't have one good word to say about her and this goes way back.
Remember Esav selling his yerusha? At least it really was his to sell.
I don't see why Hirshel lets a guy like Schneur bicker around here, throwing slurs on the Rebbe and Chabad with no response,
Can we stop the ad hominem attacks before Schneur goes back into hiding?
I second that motion, Fed Up.
I agree that the kehillos fought tooth and nail. Hasidim were trying to break the hegemony, now they want to perpetuate the hegemony. They have switched from oppressed to oppressors.
Hmm..I'm not a psychologist but maybe Hirshel himself is disappointed in Chabad and regrets his choice. That may be why he lets Schneur sound off unchallenged.
You can always go back to Spinka, Tzig.
Here are driving directions from Monsey to the Spinka tish:
1. Head west on NY-59 W toward Roberts Rd
2.0 mi
2. Turn right onto N Airmont Rd/Co Rd 89
0.4 mi
3. Turn left to merge onto I-287 W/I-87 N
Continue to follow I-87 N
Partial toll road
17.1 mi
4. Take exit 16 to merge onto NY-17 W toward US-6/Harriman
Toll road
2.1 mi
5. Continue onto US-6 W
12.2 mi
6. Continue onto NY-17 W
5.0 mi
7. Take exit 120 for NY-211 toward Middletown/Montgomery
0.2 mi
8. Turn left onto NY-211 W
3.1 mi
9. Turn right onto NY-211 W/Monhagen Ave
Continue to follow NY-211 W
7.0 mi
10. Turn right onto County Rd 90/Sanitorium Ave
Destination will be on the left
anon 3:08
LOL!
I resent having Charlie Buttons mentioned in this discussion, when I Zalmen Der Shikker, am actually part of the conversation and ready to be used as an example.
That looks like a set of directions to a new Skverer beis medrash that might be dedicated soon.
LOL Zalman - considering Schneur and Zalman are the same name, I humbly request that the baal hablog change the name Charlie Buttons to Zalman der Shikker!
Oops - I meant a kloiz (in the literal sense) and not a beis medrash in my comment of 3.18.
The lack of objectivity and a level playing field in many of these comments is almost amazing.
Nothing bad can be tolerated about the Lubavitcher rebbe . Why is it not possible that he made mistakes too, was he human , I would love to get an answer to both these questions was the Rebbe a human with all the frailties implicit in such and could he have made a mistake ?Perhaps I ought to frame my question in a different manner was the Rebbe divine ?
But the very same crowd is willing to take apart another rebbe with about 10,000 followers around the world , calling him all sorts of names and accusing him of all sorts of crimes.These are not atatcks on hashkofe or politics but atatcks of a personal and criminal nature. Why is one rebbe immune to even the slightest of crticism and another Rebbe is being blasted through the roof. And lets be clear the Skverer Rebbe is not a two bit Rebbe with 6 Chassiidm in a Volkswagon.
Why the total lack of objectviity or insight ? Before answering my question , think about them.
Because the Skverer "Rebbe" directed or encouraged his hoiz bochur to commit a grievous violent felony, that is why. And before that he had his Chassidim sit in prison for a scheme that ultimately helped him keep his moisdos alive. He is a Mafia don who has others do his dirty work, and many of his own Chassidim are with him by default. The best Skvere ever produced now does his own thing in Airmont. He should be the Rebbe; instead for them he's an oisvorf.
Doovidel Twerpsky (I won't call him by his real surname because it is an insult to the many real Rebbes throughout the generations who shtam from Chernobyl) is a chometz ben yayin rebbe who took over from his father, and nothing more. He took a great Chassidus and a shtetl that was working and turned it into a massive Chilul Hashem.
You are not anyone whose question anyone has to answer, Schneur. Climb down from your high horse and stick to your surdut and sirtuk scholarship.
Hirshel
Shneur goes in a tirade to embarrass the Rebbe on every move for no good reason.
Their are no rebuttals,
what is the purpose of the blog?
"Why the total lack of objectviity or insight"
HA HA HA
Schneur needs objectivity, he is a paranoid hater, then he will complain, that the site is not civil.
Hirshel
".The readers on this blog are confusing the various court cases involved in the Aguch case "
shneurs comment
as if only he, the maniac chabad hater is not confused,
A chabadnik has no right to defend himself, since he is not objective, but the hater is objective
What is the purpose of the blog?
Hirshel
I realize that anti shneur comments are getting deleted but shneur hate post on the Rebbe are welcomed
What is the purpose of the blog?
Hirshel
the Blog claims to counter the chabad bashing,
this site has the most chabad bashing, with nobody to counter them
What is the purpose of the blog?
Schneur
What info did Schneur Deliver today, that there was a Boyaner Rebbe, Monastricher Rebbe Novominsker Rebbe in the USA etc...
and then it was all chabad bashing
what is the purpose of the blog?
everybody calm down, PLEASE!!!
btw the mishna המלך אינו מיעיד is on malchai yisrael for bad resouns
"Borech Hashem I learned many times Masechtas Sanhedrin with all rishonim and hilchos Melochim, It was always meant as a strong chasidic hergesh, It is just your arrogance that tries to blow hot air."
All the Rishonim ? Hilchos Melochim ? I am positive you never learned Sanhedrin at all!
Anyone that horrivved on the Mschta can see this.
I believe your kneejerk need to mention
Hilchos Melochim stems from your real
connection to Hilchos Mamrim..
"It was always
meant as a strong chasidic hergesh"
Chosh Broyshoy Yaasoyk Batoyro..
You might want to start with Mscht Sanhedrin..
It would be nice if the Chabad people defended themselves with facts and logic and not with viscious sarcasm and name calling.If this were a debate Chabad would have no points because all your criticism is personal and has no relevance to anything being discussed.Es past far cheider kinder nit far dervaksene mentshen.
Whats so holy about the twerskis? Look at dovid assafs book about the mafia , extortion ,terror in the 1860's
Where did Dovid Assaf write about the Mafia?
He writes for the NYP?
whats your fascination with Assaf? He believes in Matan Torah?
Anon
"Anyone that horrivved on the Mschta can see this."
can see what?
What else you trust Asaff with? I have a big pack of Kisvei Mosrim in Ukrainian, which write garbadge on all Chernobiler,Aliker, Ostrog kinder. May be i should belive them too??? Todays Skverer is just a choimets ben yain (good defenition, by the way)-do no go after his heiliger zaides, if you have any brains. Do not forget what happened in Chernobil in 1986.
Shaichik
please try and be objective
Anon
"My mother is close to all his daughters
They look at the Chsidim like CATTLE. "
I see that your genes are rooted deep in your mothers, she helucinates like you. The Skverer 3 daughters Goldman,Hager, Twrsky are extremely noshim Tzenuim chasidishe eidel.
No I doubt your Vachtfogel story, too..
Where did he know him from, Williamsburgh as a kid?
I am no Skverer chosid at all, but inuendos and lies are hurled at him that are simple not true.
Assaf is like our Schneur, he comes across objective but at the end will get to his agenda.
I remember the book Derech Hamelech on the holy Ruzhiner, he starts out that Maskilim are not to be believed since they were anti chasidim and not objective, but after that disclaimer. he writes a whole book based only on the Maskilic litereture and dismiss all chasidic sipurim and biographies as hagiograhy.Unless he found some sliver of negativity.
The problem is, that every little shnook that wants to seem Oifgiklert quotes him as the bible.And this shnooks try to paint everyone that dares to refute his facts and research style as naive.
My chasidic father and grand fathers never ever lied to me, and I dare to believe them vs. that so called "honest" assaf
"My mother is close to all his daughters
They look at the Chsidim like CATTLE. "
I see that your genes are rooted deep in your mothers, she helucinates like you. The Skverer 3 daughters Goldman,Hager, Twrsky are extremely noshim Tzenuim chasidishe eidel.
No I doubt your Vachtfogel story, too..
Where did he know him from, Williamsburgh as a kid?
I am no Skverer chosid at all, but inuendos and lies are hurled at him that are simple not true
1) Yes they were childhood friends. Feel free to ask the Rosh Yeshiva. He once asked a bochur to be Mazkir him by R Heshele Spinker ZL. A while later a skverer bochuur offered to be Mazkir him in Skver.
R EB in his cute way said ooah! Ba aza rebn darf men gornisht dermanen er veys alles btoych daled mayos parso!.
He told how he and the Tzodik at age 8 shpitn ohn the towels in the tzelemer mikva with a hose. The mikve yid threw them out with koylos.
2)His daughters maybe tznuoys but they have a disdain for the Chsidim.
My mother is in a profession that gave her
access and familiarity. Let's just say they have strong personalities and BTW are not chsiditess of their father in private when decisions are made
3) You are a Skverer - my sympathies
Asaf brings russian govt docs ,who tried to stop the terror , kisve bresov and much more...read it and then answer.
Anon - 12:30 "He believes in Matan Torah?
Anon - 12:55
My chasidic father and grand fathers never ever lied to me, and I dare to believe them vs. that so called "honest" assaf
Brilliant.
Hirshel-You asked me to be objective so here goes:I mean very simply that the "chabad" criticism of Reb Schneur is to a great extent composed of personal, viscious attacks that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Here are a few choice morsels:
maniac
paranoid hater
crank
surdut-sirtuk scholarship
If after spending a lifetime in Oholei Torah or ULY ,a Lubavitcher chosid can't compose a sentence that deals in an objective fashion with actual issues under discussion as opposed to being filled with disgusting personal insults,then Lubavitch should rethink their educational system from the inside out. I'm sorry but these bloggers sound like they need some workshops in how to conduct an intelligent conversation with another person esp. if "that person" doesn't agree with them. In the outside secular world they would be asked to leave a debate or discussion. This talk is not acceptable among decent people.
The Alter Skverer Rebbe used to refer to
a leading rebbe and manhig derisively as Der Studentl due to the latter's having gotten a degree in architecture.
Its interesting that his own son the Tzodik
read all types of literature as a youth
(as per R Mordch of Skver Flatbush A"H
who charmingly added: gelernt hot er keinmool
nisht in stam unbregen di tzaht? Hot er
gleint bicher ). The heir apparent Aron Mendl
had private secular schooling. Both speak
english perfectly. A skverer groupie didn't
believe me-poor thing- that his leader
converses in english with no "ehxnt". His ability to relate to outsiders made him the sensation that he became.
His popularity as a "kvitl rebbe"
to all types of jews was no accident.
He's a sharp guy. But his followers are kept in North Korean style subjugation with no education or freedoms.
Salichik
I hear your complain,
first of all I never learned in Lubavich.
but if Hirshel posted a article from a Skverer chosid that describes the matzav of pre war yiddishkiet in the USA. Schneur took that article as a swipe of Chabad for no good reason. Then he started whining that the issues of pre war jewry are not discussed, Just some stupid fights.
He has to understands that he will have to bear the consequences of his Chabad bashing,and when he has non substantial criticism he will be answered with a non substantiated response.He will not be answered with a biur of Reb Yoel on Oir Umoer..
Anon
"as per R Mordch of Skver Flatbush A"H
who charmingly added: gelernt hot er keinmool
nisht in stam unbregen di tzaht? Hot er
gleint bicher"
he maybe was a bench presser, he is no intellectual, he never read books, the Flatbush Skverer may he be the biggest Tzadik,he could of laern 2 times a day chai perokim Misnayes, instead of one time, but he lived all his life a envious life on his BP brother and for sure his cousin of Hillcrest . Lets not be pulled in a rechilas war, how immaturish and foolish he was.
I see you are working on all gears to pull up dirt on the Hilcrester skeverer,From Vachfogel to Skver Flatbush is a big stretch.
Anon
"The heir apparent Aron Mendl
had private secular schooling. Both speak
english perfectly. "
If it is true, then you think he learned something more then a little English language ?
or he needs a doctorate in business economics,
Let me tell you,the Skverer Rebbe's advice is not that great, that you should create conspiracies. He is good at one thing, in listening and make you feel that he really feels your pain. He had this skill from day one he became Rebbe.
the Flatbush Skverer may he be the biggest Tzadik,he could of laern 2 times a day chai perokim Misnayes, instead of one time, but he lived all his life a envious life on his BP brother and for sure his cousin of Hillcrest "
As a bochur the Flatbush Skverer learned
bikvius with YBLchtv"m R Mottele vizhnitzr Shy"ch- a man
with Zero tolerance for Bittl Toyre. This is why R Mottele had that same degree of tolernce for the Shvugr from hillcrest all the years...
It is why he really wanted Yitzchok over Aron Mendl. Yitchok as a bochur was a masmid
Anon
"The Alter Skverer Rebbe used to refer to
a leading rebbe and manhig derisively as Der Studentl due to the latter's having gotten a degree in architecture"
Did you hear that he changed his mind regarding the Lubavicher Rebbe at his later years? or it his Chabad hogwash?
Anon
"It is why he really wanted Yitzchok over Aron Mendl. Yitchok as a bochur was a masmid"
If I am not mistaking he got Aron Mendel, He probably hated Mendel for he was named after his nemesis Liechas father....
Is Itzik also groomed with secular studies? or he will be slaughtered with all the cattle?
Is Itzik also groomed with secular studies? or he will be slaughtered with all the cattle?"
In skver the rebbe actually prefers to roast his cattle alive
Anon
"His ability to relate to outsiders made him the sensation that he became.
His popularity as a "kvitl rebbe"
to all types of jews was no accident. "
wasn't his father also open to all types of Jews?
R Schneur;
When the Satmarer Rebbe was candidate for Gaavad the BRisker rov backed him.
R Shmuel Shenker (neched R Chaim Sonenfeld)came to the BR
Hytochn? Er shtelzach davnen azeiger draytzn un er zol zayn ba unz rov!
The BR explained a mol is dort givenn der front haynt iddos ergetz andersh.
Meaning the war on chsidus is not the problem of today. We have other worries.
If you didn't have anything personal against lubavich(in printzip halt ich punkt der zelber) you'll realize that may dehavve havve.
Right now 7000 Achbnysr"l are living under the Jackboot regime of a ukranian strongman continuing in the tradition
Of chmelnitzki and petlyura YM"sh complete with religiously incited pogroms.
Innocent children are victimized. Real shfichas domim sanctioned by head Imam over there.
How can you hak a tshainik at time like this.
anon 6:37pm
that's some heavy language you used there!
is it that bad? do we need to call in the CIA to start a revolt like in Nicaragua?
An.6:37 Your story about the Ukraine,even if it is as serious as you claim, is only a "red herring" designed to deflect criticism from some shluchim who have introduced a certain "kalus rosh" in their behavior and activities.It's not just Schneur but Rav Heller,as well,who has written and expressed great concern about this phenomenon.The Ukrainian "front" requires that we give a free pass to every shliach who decides to compromise on critical areas of Chassidus,Tznius, and Yiddishkeit?How are the two connected?
I know more about it than you think. A friend was send by R Leib Gorelik -R Hellers BIL- to show him pictures of a row of
potted plants placed apart from one another ( zeycher Limchitza) in a Chabad Shull in the South.(If R Hirshl permits I will give the name of the town. Yireh HaKohol Vyishpoit. When he looked at them he said he has Groys Agmas Nefesh.
He added S"iz(chabad) haynt a Kdeyreh Dbey Shutfeh so he can't do anything.
But that's nowhere near the Tzoras Achim V'Rabim of Skver. Among new Square's inhabitants are thousands of some of the eydlster Yidden that the Rbsh"o has today.
A Yid automatically must platz far tzar.
A rebbe who's behaviour screams Shov Avoid Eloykim.( See Satmarer Rov's famous Nosoy Toyre for a beautiful and extensive discussion of this )apologies to all SR's Heimishe Sonim but s'iz zach tzu balekn di finger)
A Rosho who persecutes the righteous and demands they reckognize him as the kodoish
Anon
"to show him pictures of a row of
potted plants placed apart from one another ( zeycher Limchitza) in a Chabad Shull in the South."
I like the way this brisker Reish Shien Ayin Garelik, is all ears to get rechiles on Chabad.
For whom does he send his criticism on Aish?
Did Garelik father(the brisker talmid) have better mechtzas in YU?
What a Roshe and Gaas Ruach?
I heard from Aleksanrer talmidim that were there when he was there,, that his level of meanness and evil is beyond what any chosid can take..
Btw,
why is it this plant worse then a mechitza of reb moshe?
I know the Rebbe was against it?
but if a shaliach is relying on a pesak of reb Moshe it is not the end of the world.
Meybe by these Brisker Reshoim, Reb Moshe does not exist, so in their eyes reb Moshe is in the company of Reb Yosef Karo and Reb Moshe Isserlis
Anon
"When the Satmarer Rebbe was candidate for Gaavad the BRisker rov backed him.
R Shmuel Shenker (neched R Chaim Sonenfeld)came to the BR
Hytochn? Er shtelzach davnen azeiger draytzn un er zol zayn ba unz rov!
The BR explained a mol is dort givenn der front haynt iddos ergetz andersh."
Who decides where the front is? is only a jew that wrote some Chidishem on Zevachim and Minachoth?
If a jew wrote gevaldiger chidushim on Hilchas Miktze and Grufa and Ketuma, can he also decide where the front is?
The Brisker Rov decided that Hiechel Shlome is the most important war, historically it was a waste of a war.The Rabinate does hold the face of yiddishkiet in the Medina, and they are very erlich and pure, plus the Godel hador is from that building too
There are a handful of shluchim who succumb and lower their standards out of weakness. There are a slightly larger handful who are farkoifte neshomos (lower standards to attract donors) and two or three who are out and out reshoim because they turned shlichus into a dirty business. Dreck happens.
Out of 4000 plus, that is not bad. We don't have a Mondrowitz, a Leizerowitz, a Kolko, a Spinka, a Spitzer etc. Our scandals are few and they involve private people who succumb to the yetzer.
Anon
"When the Satmarer Rebbe was candidate for Gaavad the BRisker rov backed him.
R Shmuel Shenker (neched R Chaim Sonenfeld)came to the BR
Hytochn? Er shtelzach davnen azeiger draytzn un er zol zayn ba unz rov!"
I see this story in the book of Rav shlezinger of London not with the Shenker detail?
is he your source? since he is not reliable by the Brisker talmidim?
Was Sehenkers grandfather Rav zonenfelld such a Misnaged that he could not take a chasidic rebbe?
I saw a hesped from Rav Zonenfeld on Belzer Ruv RY"D who davened many times Shacris after Chatzois?
If he did not tolerate it how would he be maspid him with a lot of Hispailous.
Anon
"The BR explained a mol is dort givenn der front haynt iddos ergetz andersh.
Meaning the war on chsidus is not the problem of today. We have other worries. "
Why is that different then the argument of people that now the war is on Kiruv or for Eretz Yisroel , and we have to let go some stringencies for the sake of the Kiruv front.
In the end it does not pay to lower standards. Present things differently, sure. But let the modern Orthodox present the lower standards, and then let those who want to grow move on.
Otherwise, when someone outgrows the lower standards they will resent the Chabad-lite that they were fed and want to go elsewhere just to relieve the feeling of being treated with contempt.
In the end it does not pay to lower standards. Present things differently, sure. But let the modern Orthodox present the lower standards, and then let those who want to grow move on.
Otherwise, when someone outgrows the lower standards they will resent the Chabad-lite that they were fed and want to go elsewhere just to relieve the feeling of being treated with contempt."
1)BRILLIANT!
2)Re Schlesinger in Brisk they call him the Boki in
Mayses noch TofShin"Chof - the Rov was Niftar then.
In other words a Huchzak Shakron
I don't rely on him
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