Thursday, February 10, 2011

"זכרון שמריהו"



Who remembers how Schneur used to rail about that fact that Lubavitch never named any institutions after the Frierdige Rebbe's oldest Eydem, The RaSHaG, Reb Shmaryahu Gurary, z"l? (It was mostly - or all - on Mentalblog,ע"ה, not here.) How about we rename this blog "Zichron Shmaryahu" for a day Lekoved the RaSHaG's 22nd yahrtzeit? There's not much that I can do, other than this. I don't have buildings or mosdos, and I'm not publishing a sefer at the moment. This blog is all I have. By the way; has anybody else noticed how the Meshichisten seem to have taken up that cause, for lack of a better term. These pics are from a rabid Meshichist site, and they commemorate him very often. Go figure.

אומר ועושה

222 comments:

1 – 200 of 222   Newer›   Newest»
boris said...

איר שטייגט אין טיפשות אין נארישקייט להפליא להפליא

ווי עס פאסט נאר פאר א אינגערישר נער

zundel said...

boris likes to insult
your very sharf

Anonymous said...

I put on teffilin with a client today at work, a voyler yid fin ingaren who saw tells me "why don't you ask me if I put on teffilin?!"
So I told him "what should I do he ask me"
"oh!" he says "mitin gantzen kuved" "me ken nisht opshatzen a yiddishe neshoma"
so I asked what's the problem if I asked him don't I have a mitzvah of "hoicheach tochiach?" don't I have to be Moche? and portest against a yid who didn't put on teffilin....

Anonymous said...

Kol Hakovod Hirshil ! Your not worried that your freinds from Detriot are going to disown you?

Menashe said...

Those that like to be midyuak in inyanim will appreciate the resolution of that picture. Click on it and laugh.

Go figure said...

Your enemies enemy is your friend.

RASHA"G ZT"L said...

http://www.hageula.com/moshiach/king/5940.html
From an even more rabid site.

Anonymous said...

I commented on COL live how it's disgusting that they don't even mention that he was the Frierdiker Rebbe's son in law and the Rebbe's brother in law; they just mention him by name.

It's not fair that even though he sided with the Rebbe against his own son and wife Lubavitchers can't fargin him any relationship with the Frierdiker Rebbe because of what his son did.

They did not publish my comment, of course.

Anonymous said...

A somewhat unrelated comment, on the posts of Tolner wikileaks --

The Tolner Rebbe came out with a hak'chosha of course.. Between the lines, one can see the "truth hurts, at least somewhat". (Just as the PM's sons didn't disprove EVEN ONE of hanichtov bo..)

http://shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=48133

But, see this (and the subsequent posts, at http://ladaat.net/forum/index.php?topic=53070.330 ) --
יש בקול הלשון שיחות מר' איטשע טולנער, בשיחה לפורים תשס"ו, שהוא גם טיש יאהרצייט לפנ"מ זצ"ל, בתוה"ד [דקה ה73 והלאה] מספר ר' איטשע גופו שכתב יום יום יומן מהפנ"מ, והביא לידידיו שידפיסוהו, ויש לו סדרה בת 4 כרכים כאלו, אבל אי אפשר להוציאו לאור כי יש שם דברים לא ראויים להפצה.
ומבקש שיביאו לו אחד מהם, וקורא מתוכו כמה דברים [חלקם בלשון היומן ממש], בתחילה מה שמופיע במופץ בעמוד 10 מספר 16 על השריפה אצל השפ"א, אח"כ מה שמופיע בעמודים 168 עד 171 [רק בלי השמות..], בתוכו הסיפור שסיפר הפנ"מ על הא"א במרינבאד המופיע באחד הדפים כאן באשכול בשינוי לשון קצת.
אלא שכמובן שאפשר לטעון שהוסיפו וסילפו שם דברים, נו, שהרוצה יטען....

Which speak for themselves. Especially as the wikileaks is careful to write HaRi"M as in 3rd person, but the narrarator sometimes says "I" or "my brother". Definitely by writing "saba tolna" it must be (at the very least) a sibling/cousin of RI"M.

So apparently, it may be somewhat fictitious (probably added afterward to chap their agenda against certain gedolim/kreizen), not to mention the numerous poshute spelling mistakes (or are those of the "bochur zetzer"..), but with parts true.

Which shocks me, amongst other points, as the Tolner always speaks at Heichal Menachem bnei brak's yom iyun on 3 Tamuz anually, where he's machshiv himself as a chosid/maaritz of the Rebbe in a respect, certainly as for hashkafah etc (and they printed a sefer on those drashos)..

U'va l'Wikileaks goel..

nichoach vol.1 said...

I propose creating the Gurarie Family Center for the resolution of intra-family disputes without resorting to actions which destroy marriages,cause permanent physical injury,and destroy families by forcing each family member to choose sides. After thousands of pages of torah shebiksav and toreh shebal peh and thousands more of sifrei kabbalah,muser ,and hassidus, there will finally be a way which would have solved the "book" case without the awful consequences that transpired. The bottom line is that the Rashag suffered awfully in his last years. It needn't have been that way.My new center will remedy this situation.

itchiemayer said...

All he did was devote his life to Lubavitch and he doesn't even merit a Zatzal?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Itchie

this is not your local charedi newspaper. We don't dish out "Zatzals" to every askan and school principal.

she'aleh der katz said...

Lubab thinking is so different.
This wannabee-johnny-come-lately thinks,even in jest, that a yellow-rag-website full of hate,and wickedness is a fitting memorial
Hey,Goat,have you no brains??
(shame we know you don't have)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

oy, shea'le

you're what they call "easy"

nichoach vol.1 said...

Re:zatzal
Nevertheless, the Rashag deserves it and precisely because you don't dish it out, it would mean something.

RASHA"G ZT"L said...

I dont have the Mara Mokom right now ,but I believe it was The Rebbe who used the Term ZT"L on RASHA"G.

Anonymous said...

A lubav can never understand someone admiring and even attempt to emulate their Rebbe and at the same time hold certain views that are not in sync with what is said in their own circles. Maybe because they never admire others and never appreciate someone dirreferent from their views (unless that fellow praises them).

mr. forest said...

Purpose achieved:

Open a trivial thread and a picture, and all the sickos and haters under anonymity start oozing their malignant hate! And presto all the vapid empty heads have what to do and the site thrives

mr. trees said...

And before you know it you've got 1 million hits and people are wishing you mazel tov.

Anonymous said...

As someone who saw the Rashag nearly every day for several years & who interacted with him many atimes & was even meshamesh him in his house a couple of times, I can say that he did not have the demeanor or nimusim of a Rebbe, or even a durchgearbeter oyved. He acted like a Gurary through & through, even loosing it & screaming once in a while.

Towards the end of his life he would come to his empty dark office on Ocean Parkway & sit at his desk doing absolutely nothing. Maybe a phone call here & there, & receiving Rabbi Yosel Wineberg to hear his oral reports every other week or so, but that's it.

(Of course, this was all after his stroke.)

Sad, very sad indeed....

Still, he deserves SOME respect...

Since he was the only one in Lubavitch adhering to a semblance of "shaleshudes," perhaps we should sponsor a weekly shaleshudes in his memory.

Yehi zichroy boruch.

-- ZIY

Jingle Belz said...

Miracle 1

http://mishpacha.com/Browse/Article/727/The-Miracle-Officer

The holy brothers were eventually whisked out of occupied Poland and into Hungary by a reliable Hungarian counter-intelligence officer who was willing to rescue Jews for a price. Shorn of their beards and peyos, they were disguised as Russian generals who had been captured at the front and were being taken to Budapest for questioning.
Much of what took place on that incredible drive will remain forever a mystery, but the Rebbe himself would recount three examples of Heavenly intervention as they drove through one checkpoint after another without being detained.

The Rebbe talked about an “eerie mist” that enveloped the car throughout the journey, which seemed to render the car invisible. On arrival to Budapest, the officer himself testified that the car was rarely asked to stop, yet he had no problem navigating the vehicle — in front of it, all was clear.

Jingle Belz said...

Miracle 2

In another instance, the car suddenly stopped dead. The officer, who saw what had happened, was wringing his hands in despair, because to fix the problem would require a professional welder. Suddenly, an old man appeared, striding toward them. When they explained the problem to him, he took a screwdriver from the leather sash tied around his waist, tinkered under the hood, and the motor sprang to life.

Years later, the Rebbe told this to the Sadigurer Rebbe, who responded that “a man with a leather sash wrapped about his waist” is a reference to Eliyahu HaNavi. The Rebbe, it is told, didn’t respond, but smiled enigmatically.

Jingle Belz said...

Miracle 3

One of the oft-repeated miracles the chassidim tell took place at the Hungarian border checkpoint. Up to this point, at most of the border checks the officer managed to wave some mysterious documents at the guard, who ushered them through. Now, the border guard stopped them for inspection, but wasn’t satisfied with these documents. Pointing his gun at them, he ordered them out of the car. Suddenly, out of nowhere, three senior officials appeared and instructed the guard to release them immediately and to let them continue on their way.

The Bilgoray Rav, when he used to tell this wonder-tale, would add, “Those three officials were none other than our fathers, the three Belzer Rebbes, may they rest in Eden ...” — his father, Rebbe Yissachar Dov; his grandfather, Rebbe Yeshiele; and his great-grandfather, Rebbe Shalom.

Jingle Belz said...

From Belize to Belz.
The ex-convict rapper Shyne who shtams from Belize has been adopted by the Belzer Hasidim according to this article.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/giving-israel-s-image-a-good-rap-1.341149

Jingle Belz said...

This is is the story of a Belzer chusid who mocked the LR's kiruv campaigns and then his wayward son was returned to the proper Belzer path by Chabadniks on the streets of Manhattan.

http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=22029

Anonymous said...

There was never anything but respect for the RaSHaG in Lubavitch. I remember his levaya very well. It was the first time I ever went to the Rebbe on my own, for dollars and I stayed for the levaya as the shaliach who was mekarev me to Chabad was there.

Time has passed, and a new generation runs these silly Chabad websites.

COLLive.com is for modern types and I put no stock whatsoever in it. This was the same site that published a letter written by an out-and-out hater of Chabad. It is also the site behind that oisvorf music contest which in turn is backed by an oisvorf who is not even Shomer Shabbos.

I had to remove my blocking filter for technical reasons or it would be in there along with Failed Messiah, Haemtza, UOJ and other nonsense.

As for Zichron Shmarya, yehi ratzon that before Purim Failed Messiah can be renamed as that so that we can sing "Arurim Kol haReshoim" mit an emmes.

Anonymous said...

Nichoach

"The bottom line is that the Rashag suffered awfully in his last years"
it was never a great loving couple that got destroyed,Dont try to create some camelot, she considered herself the Rebbes Daugther and looked on her husband as a loser, He saw the writing on the wall in circa 1952 where the youth is going, and had a full bittul, and went on with his life.She was fiesty till the end.

shmiel said...

How much older than the rebbe was R'Gurary?

nichoach vol1[maybe2] said...

I don't know what Lubavitch would have looked like if the Rashag had become Rebbe but I do know what it looks like under the present circumstances.I am greatly relieved that the Rashag had a "full bitul"-is that didan notzach terminology? "Shoyn fun Long" I've wanted to order the "full bitul" the next time I frequent your fine wine bar in the Heights...I hope it tastes as good as it sounds...

dudy said...

All the feisty "dor hasvi'niks" are going to come out of their dark holes with "tributes" to the one who should have really been leader.

ZIY,
If you were supposed to be next rebbe and for years you had nothing would you not feel depressed?

Anonymous said...

Nichoach
"Shoyn fun Long" I've wanted to order the "full bitul" the next time I frequent your fine wine bar in the Heights"
where is exactly the wine bar?

Anonymous said...

Dudy
you dont know the person, if you would know him you would never say what you said, he had no 2nd toughts about his nesius.

dudy said...

"he had no 2nd toughts about his nesius."

How old r u 80?
u remember what happened 60 years ago?
Fool

RASHA"G ZT"L said...

I am close to someone who was a MASBA"K for a while,and he always talks of the complete bittul The RASHA"G had for The Rebbe.He remembers that on a day when The RASHA"G had a Yechidus,he would be "Tzituring" the entire day.

dudy said...

Dor Hashvi'niks,
Rabboisai,
Please don't make up stories.
Lubavitchers Dor Hashvi'niks will obviously claim this charade

Anonymous said...

ווי עס פאסט נאר פאר א אינגערישר נאר

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Jingle

why here?!

Meir said...

Little bit off topic
One thing I don't understand is that after so many years of Sichos,Maamorim,Iggros Kodesh, you can still go into the average Olamisher or Peylishe shul in Boro Park ,Flatbush,Monsey and not see even a zeicher of the seforim.
Hayitochen?
I think that had we moved like Bobov to BP, we would have ruled BP and by extension a whole bunch of other places.Do you know how many of Ana"sh joined because they were sent to The Lubavitcher Yeshiva in CH as kids, because it was well known.We would have had thousands of kids in our moisedes in BP

monsey mekurev said...

"Jingle

why here?!"


Your blog(and you) is the garbage can for all shmutz and plotik on the net.
Want to attack Belz?
Sure, Hirshel Tzig will give you a platform
Want to attack Satmar?
Sure!
Lakewood?
Come right here!
Shaya Braun?
Right here!!!
For shame

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why here means why in this thread/post?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but I'm glad the mekurev here is wagging his finger at me...

monsey mekurev said...

I became mekurov for the right reasons, despite people like you.
You obviously were attracted to the facet of Chabad that does not get on with the rest of the world .Hate must be attractive for some people.
Nebach on you

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

may I ask when this "kiruv" happened? and who were the people that attracted you so?

You sound very nice, by the way.

monsey mekurev said...

I met R'Moshe Vebber years ago in Yerusholayim

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and you thought all Lubavitchers were like him??

monsey mekurev said...

Off course not.Very few people anywhere were like him.

monsey mekurev said...

Have to run now
But please don't make your blog an address to attack Jews.
I Apologize for being a bit nasty before

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

phew.

For a moment I thought you were living a mistake all these years.

But I promise you, once you'll meet me you'll agree that I'm really a nice guy.

Jingle Belz said...

Where else?

Belz Iber Der Gantzer Velt said...

where else? on The Belzer Blog, which I have been begging for years.

Jingle Belz said...

So open one. It's free!!

Anonymous said...

Mier
"We would have had thousands of kids in our moisedes in BP"
how many families is bobov?

yehupitz "the apologist" said...

This question of how to treat the Rashag is an old one, it's a machlokes between Dovid Hamelech and Yoav ben Tzruiah. Dovid held that since he was the melech, there was no need to assert himself by punishing rival claimants and even rebels who had lost. He wanted to do everything he could o preserve and respect and promote Beis Shaul. He wanted to keep Avner ben Ner as his general. He wanted to allow Ish Boshes to live. He wanted Avshalom to be kept alive. He let Shimi ben Geira live during his lifetime. He felt that his claim to be Melech was already justified, and magnanimity in victory only strengthened his emotional and personal claim.

Yoav felt that in order to maintain his perception of legitimacy as King, he had to act on Dovid's behalf, even against Dovid's wishes, to crack down on any opposition. Dovid recognized Yoav's value to him, but clearly resented it from early on in his reign, and arranged for Shlomo to releave himself of that burden on his Malchus.

It seems to me, from what I've read, that after the early-mid 50's, the Rashag was a benign presence in the Chabad world. His early claims were forgotten, and even the Yoav's of Lubavitch saw no threats. Without knowing the details, I think that the founding of Oholei Torah with the Rebbe's approval spelled the end to the Rashag's remaining hold on Lubavitch yeshiva system, since it would no longer be a "Tomchei Temimim" monopoly.

The library case awakened all the resentments of the earlier era. Beis Shaul can be ignored or even respected when all is quiet on the Second and Third Floor front. The Yoav's can sleep soundly. But the stolen books, which had been a powder keg of silent compromise for 35 years, blew up and rekindled the old feelings of civil war. The Rashag sided with the Rebbe. That kind of Bittul is admirable. Yet the fight, and the taking of the books, was only an outcome of the resentment of Year One. (Rebbetzin Nechama Deena in 1970 called herself the Last Lubavitcher Rebbetzin!) The Yoavs would not remain silent. The Rebbe might be the Dovid role, but the others would not stand by and allow the good-hearted King be magnanimous while there was a threat. Of course there was no literal threat in the sense of someone contesting the Rebbisteve, but it was a sign that things were left unsettled, that the succession was bumpy and the "throne" unstable, at least in the Beis Harav. In the Yoavs' eyes, the Rashag's standing had to be diminished. The Rebbe was a bigger man than the Yoav's. But to them, the Rashag was no longer the benign ChadBa"N and "Gis". He was, not by choice, but by his placement on the family tree, the reason for the mess that had made the Rebbe and Rebbetzin so unhappy in their last years. So the Yoavs among the chassidim can be, if not forgiven then at least understood, for not being such big fans and mechabdim of the Rashag.

Anonymous said...

But the stolen books, which had been a powder keg of silent compromise for 35 years, blew up and rekindled the old feelings of civil war.
---
??? The books were only recovered 30 odd years into the nesius.

Anonymous said...

I think that had we moved like Bobov to BP, we would have ruled BP and by extension a whole bunch of other places.Do you know how many of Ana"sh joined because they were sent to The Lubavitcher Yeshiva in CH as kids, because it was well known.We would have had thousands of kids in our moisedes in BP

---

That wasn't the Rebbe's goal. He wanted and has thousands of Chabad Houses throughout the world. It is similar to what he told the Poylisher chossid who told him that if he wore a shtreimel he would have 50K more Chassidim.

The Rebbe's answer was that he would lose the kibbutzim.

Moshe said...

Yehupitz
Are u the real Yehupitz or is this an impostor?

yehupitzer said...

From what I've read, the books were kept for 35 years and the unspoken status quo was to keep them separate from the rest of the libraries. Berl Levin unwittingly discovered years earlier that he'd opened up a tense topic when he suggested to the Rebbe that the libraries merge. The books were only taken from Barry Gourary for the first time 30-odd years later. That was the first time the status quo was affected.

Moshe, it's me. Just having fun with the name.

Nichoacher Vol1 said...

The book case could easily have been solved by issuing a check for several hundreds of thousands of dollars-pocket change for Lubavitch. Leadership had to prove that Bere had no rights to anything relating to his Zeide-everything belonged to AGUCH.No independent beis din would accept this so it was moved to federal court. By the way what beis din permitted the move to federal court? This matter keeps on coming up because on a deeper level people instinctively know that Bere was wronged of at least part of his rightful inheritance. You can polish off 20 cases of Smirnoffs on 5 teves but the facts are the facts.

Anonymous said...

yehupitz "the apologist" said...

why did this make the rebbe and rebbezin unhappy ?

Anonymous said...

Nichoach
How about that 3 rabonim were consulted? Reb Fishel Hershkowitz. Rav Klien,Rav Ralbag, they only Ruv that was not consulted was Rav Shach or Rav Shvie,
Why should money be given to a person that you don"t owe him? If the Library was built and collected that Chabad as an Organization should own a prestigious library, then he has no relationship to it what so ever. If for arguments sake Barry would have his own rebisteve, and he wants to built his fiefdom with a Library, I would get the argument that his people gave money for the Rebbe too, and it has to be cut proportionally,according to his size of families. But if you are talking about some Mechalel Shabos in Maple wood that is out to ruin a Library for his own benefit. The Sechel Hayosher would say that he should be fought till the end.

Vladimir Kapustovnik said...

Anyone remember the TV show "queen for a day ", (yes I joined with otehr chashuve Anash und noch hecher in owning a TV...) Tzig why stop with naming a mossad for the Rashag for 1 day, why not proclaim him the Lubavitcher Rebbe for 1 day.
To me it seems that many Lubavitcher never grow up , they always remain children with child like conceptions .

Mulle said...

Rav Herskovitz(harotze leshaker yarchik edosso) shlit"a denies giving any such reshus or issuing any psak without hearing both sides.
I won"t even comment about Ralbag or Klein.These guys worship a different form of Creator.Ve D"L if you take Klein seriously why don't you take his recent words about Chabad seriously ?
Krinsky is quoted in the NY Times as sayng Aguch went to secular courts because Halacha has no means of preventing theft or the like.(By the way rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik ZT"L said that the statement was a chilul Hashem)
No mention of permission to go to secular courts, by Krinsky.
Shouldn't Chabad get their story straight ?
Today most dine Tore are pesharos not din so people compromise and everyone is happy. is Shalom not one of the names of Hashem ?
I thought Chassidim practice chassdiuth - lifne meshuras hadin or is the whole thing yikov hadin es ha-har ?
PS What about the hand written Will by Rebbetzin Nechama Dinsa Schneersohn ? Clearly she, Chana, BG RACHAL and may I add Rashag all thought the library was yerusha and so did all of Anash until the Leader revealed the Truth !

Anonymous said...

Vladimir
"To me it seems that many Lubavitcher never grow up , they always remain children with child like conceptions ."
I guess your are from the selective mature people tha5t let bygones be bygones, most people that I hang out with(non Chabadniks), are unfortunately no as ripe as you are.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"Rav Herskovitz(harotze leshaker yarchik edosso) shlit"a denies"
how do I know that he denied? because "you" are saying so? I choose to believe the other people that say that he did say so. So we will have a din torah now if he did say it or not.
"I won"t even comment about Ralbag or Klein.These guys worship a different form of Creator.Ve D"L"
I am not ready to be mekabel any Rechiles on talmidie chachomim, since I dont know no Ruv that we can not badmouth, May it be Elieshev or Kanievsky.

Anonymous said...

In continuation to what Mulle writes --

It was Bere who didn't want to go to a Beis Din, but l'chatchila in a goyishe court.

The NYT interview may have been distorted (as journalism is wont to do), but I believe it was either at the Seudas Hodaa, or in one of the books printed, that Yudel expalined that the Rebbe told him to show the printed heter that if you're taken (with no alternative) to a court, you can comply, in order that there be no CHilul hashem involved.

In those days, BH, it was a shocking thing (However now, the frumme velt, Satmer, and many others too, easily stroll into secular court without batting an eyelash..

The above is IIRC. Someone may correct me on the exact details..

nichoach said...

I repeat- who gave permission to go to the secular courts? No one in Lubavitch will say. They mutter under their breath that they got permission. Who were the independent authorities that permitted it? Lubavitch put it into the New York Times so it's a matter in the public arena-so how about a copy of the tzetl?Don't tell me these books weren't the personal property of the Rayatz. Do you think if the Rayatz wanted to sell the books anyone in Lubavitch would have opposed him and said that the books belong to the Chassidim and not to him? They were his and therefore Bere has a stake in the yerusha. Maybe the next step is for Lubavitch to claim that Bere was not the grandson of the Rayatz? Stuff like this used to happen in the old Soviet Union.And who are you to say that Bere was not a shomer shabbes? Shame on you.
These words are disgraceful.

Tzally said...

"and arranged for Shlomo to releave himself of that burden on his Malchus."

??
What's this?
'

Anonymous said...

mulle:
I don't believe J.B. was capable of expressing opinions at that point of his life.

yoineh said...

Yehupitz
You are actually rewriting history.The Rebbe took a very active role in the Seforim case.he took as anattempt at the throne and saw the recently deceased Judge Siftons ruling as even the Goverment agreeing with Chabad
See all the sichos

Mulle said...

Anonymou call the rav up , speak to his children and ask them if the rav gives permission to go to Arkaos based on testimony of 1 party ? Why should I believe any Lubavitcher about your this? And you don't believe me so we are even and of course you are better because Lubavitch does wonderful things all over.Aderabba take me to Arkaos , too bad that Dayan Sifton is dead , but maybe he is more alive than ever...
You are ready to believe rechilus about the Beth Horav , but not about rabbonim who are well known to be ....

The Un Apologist said...

R'Ayzik Shvei was one of the rabbis who ruled ,allowing Luibavitch to go to secular court.
Small problem that as a Lubavitcher there was no other way he could rule,was there?
Lubavitch could have made a great Kidesh Hashem by going to a din torah

Zev said...

The Rebbe unlike what Yehupitz writes was very involved in the Seforim Case.
I don't blame Yehupitz for not being behavent with all the details.I was learning in 770 at the time

heshy said...

The Seforim case separated the men from the boys .
Lubavitch came out smelling real bad.
A case which could've been settled for some mullah,became a cause celbre.With the little guy and fellow jew andscion being badly bullied.Somehow a secular ruling took huge significance Kabbalistically.
Since than I look at Chabad quite differently.
Give him half a million and make him sign away any other claims..

Shmuel said...

Mulle
This anonymous is just baiting you.
It's the same satmar backround guy who has poor English and has been terribly radicalized.
There is no way that R'Fishel gave them permission

itchiemayer said...

I heard that R' Barry has frum children, is this true?

brooklyn ave said...

"These pics are from a rabid Meshichist site, and they commemorate him very often. Go figure."

Please keep our inner debates inside.Be a pnimy not a chitzon.
Nobody besides ana"sh need to involve themselves in these legitimate debates

chaim said...

Before every Tom,Dick&Harry joined Lubavitch it still bearable.Lately I just want outa here.Can't take all the nuts

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"Why should I believe any Lubavitcher about your this? "
Why should I believe a Chabad hater on this?
I know Reb Fishelle well borech hashem, I don't need his kids in order to talk to him.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"and of course you are better because Lubavitch does wonderful things all over."
I never said I am better then you, maybe you are the Ceo of RCCS or Shuvu, and you do fine things.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"You are ready to believe rechilus about the Beth Horav , but not about rabbonim who are well known to be "
Yes I am ready to be Mekabel Rechillus on a Mechales Shabos vs. a Yid like Reb Menashe who is a goan olam and a masmid, with all his fallacy.
Regarding his Teshuva on Moshiach, I can agree and disagree on parts of his Teshuva, and he is still a Talmud chochem, as you can disagree with some Rambams and agree on others.

Anonymous said...

Shmuel
"There is no way that R'Fishel gave them permission"
If you know that I am a former satmarer, and you know better what reb fishele is capable of saying and what he is not capable. Then I will say as you say in Willi Kish Mech

Anonymous said...

Nichoach,
why was Rav Shwie pesak bad and not good enough for the Rebbe? Did Ponovizh ask Rav Elieshev who is on the other side of this matter if they can go the Begatz? or they had their own Talmud Chochem to pasken.

GOOD OL' DAYS said...

http://mentalblog.com/2005/02/what-if-r-shmaryahu-gourary-became.html

A what-if scenario by Schneur Zalman of NY:

As we approach 7th Adar we commemorate the 15th Yahrzeit of the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe Rabbi Shmaryahu Gourary, who died in 5749.

After serving as his father in law's right hand man, Rabbi Gourary took a dormant Chassidic group and rebuilt it as a small but intellectually significant movement in Orthodox Judaism. While Lubavitch is hardly a large group, its scholarship, piety and mystical bent lend it a great deal of prestige in all Orthodox circles. Although he faced much opposition in his attempt to succeed his father in law the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, R. Joseph I. Schneerson, he eventually was able to direct and mold the Lubavitch movement in his own personality. By early 1951 most Lubavitcher people recognized him as the new Rebbe.

While his scholarly brother in law and one time rival R. Menachem Schneerson directed the Lubavitch day school movement, Gourary concentrated on developing the Lubavitcher yeshivas Talmudic institutions into world class institutions.

Among his first appointments was that of Rabbi Mordecai Savitsky of Boston as Dean of the Lubavitcher Central Yeshiva. Following Savitsky's departure in 1962, he was replaced by Rabbi Aaron Soloveitchik brother of the Rav. Rabbi Aaron served as dean of the Central Lubavitcher yeshiva until serious illness in the 1990's forced his retirement. As such the Central Lubavitcher yeshiva acquired the reputation of a leading Talmudical academy and produced more than a few serious talmudists amongst them Rabbi Leib Groner the current dean of the institution. As dean Groner is assisted by Soloveichik's son and a number of other classical Talmudists.

The Rebbe did not forget Chabad's mystical roots and concentrated on the classic Chabad Chasidic studies as well. The Rebbe's chozer rabbi Eliahu Chaim Carlebach together with Rabbi Yitzchok Meir Gourary directed the Chassidic studies program. Rabbi Gourary maintained close relationships with the leaders of the Yeshiva world as well as with other Chasidic leaders. He forged close relationships with the Agudath Israel and America In 1966 his movement faced a serious crisis as the changing nature of Crown Heights forced the Rebbe to move to Borough Park, Brooklyn where he re-established Lubavitch world headquarters. Yet this move was opposed by his brother in law Rabbi Menachem Schneerson who remained in Crown Heights. Although never officially assuming the title of Rebbe, Schneerson assumed some functions of a Rebbe and served as spiritual leader of the remaining in Crown Heights Lubavitchers.

As the 7th Rebbe aged, speculation grew over his future successor. Some Chabad followers saw Rabbi Menachem Schneerson as the appropriate successor, but R. Schneerson himself was not much younger than the Rebbe. Others saw the Rebbe's son Dr. Barry S. Gourary as the next Rebbe. Barry Gourary an ordained rabbi worked as an engineer in Washington, DC, but maintained a close relationship to his father. In the early 1980's he directed the establishment of a Chabad community in upstate New Jersey known as Kirtath Yosef Yitzchok currently numbering about 1,000 residents. Indeed following his father's death the younger Gourary assumed leadership of the movement and attempted to draw the movement closer to modern technology and scientific ideas. He divides his time between Brooklyn and upstate New York. Currently speculation is rife about the next Lubavitcher Rebbe as the younger Gourary is aging , childless and seriously ill. Rumor has it that the sons of the long time dean of Lubavitch yeshivas in Israel, Rabbi Baruch S. Schneerson are in line for leadership. Other rumors point to Gourary's brother in law rabbi Shalom Haskind who has acted as Gourary's executive assistant for many years.

The 7th Rebbe Shmaryahu Gourary accomplished much as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he rebuilt his movement in the New World. Zecher Zaddik Livrocho!

Mulle said...

1.So lets see the Reshus to go to Arkaoth from Klein or Rav Fishel.
2. Lets also see the Hazmanoth to BG to come to din Tore as regards the seforim , in an unbiased Beth Din. Surely you all can come up with those documents. Ask Shemtov or Krinsky. Was it he RCA Beth Din, Breuers Beth Din ? The Chicago Rabbinical Council Beth Din ? perhaps the Vaad of Boston ? Stop talking and publish it.
How about a Zabla ?

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"Aderabba take me to Arkaos ,"
Oi Vey
I did not know that we are up to that stage already, I did not consult my attorney yet.

yehupitz said...

My point was not to rehash the details of the Seforim case. I wanted to point out a couple of conclusions from that case.

1- Because of the fallout damage of the case, the Rashag was not seen as some holy revered figure by the "Yoav"s.

2-Yes the Rebbe was involved in the Library fight. Dovid also fought his enemies. But that was against Barry. He wasn't against the Rashag, (despite that diyyuk of turning his chair that one Shabbos.) and respected him before and after his death. It's the Yoav's who chose to retain some form of resentment.

3- Someone asked about the Rebbe and Rebbetzin suffering. I've heard enough from Chassidim to know that the entire episode was one that was very painful to the Rebbetzin, because of the break with her sister, and the Rebbe, who I've been told became very weak and unhappy throughout the ordeal. I was also told that he stopped saying maamorim, which is a big deal in Chabad lore.

I suppose at the time of my choosing, I'll discuss my thoughts on the case itself, if I haven't already done so in a previous comment somewhere. But I don't feel like talking about that now.

Hosni said...

I noticed that the blog is called Zichron Shmaryahu are you honoring Scott Rosenberg ? Why ?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Hosni

I thought you were in a coma in Sharm A-sheikh...

no, it was for Reb Shmaryohu Gurary. Read what I wrote. It was only for one day

Anonymous said...

Hirshel-the true believers are beginning to suspect something is going on. Maybe Hosni has an extra passport?

Anonymous said...

Good Ol Days
can you rewrite that scenario on what about Chabad would go to Starashelle, and from there to Vilednik, and from their to Skver, and we would all eat today onion kugel and salted herring.

Why should chabad go to Schneerson of Chebin? what is bad with Aron Tietelbaum also a Alter Rebbe Einikel.You forget that we changed the name to Gurarie already.

GOOD OL DAYS said...

ANON:
http://mentalblog.com/2005/02/what-if-r-shmaryahu-gourary-became.html

Anonymous said...

Mulle
I will talk to Krinsky, Shemtov ....

meir ben elazar halevi said...

LZCHUTO SHEL HARASHAG Z"TL
does anyone know how many children learnt in 19 grant square.
Many of todays choshiver chassidishe rebbes,etc learnt in ULY on bedford ave.
The entire, repeat entire responsibility for the financial and curriculum was on the RSHAG
and the staff he hired.
IN FACT most of the 40-70 year old lubavitchers went to yeshiva ketaba to ULY under the presidency of the RASHAG.
My Father z"tl who supported finacially with what little he had told me that teh RASHAG was an ehrlicher ish emes and that his word was gold. he repaid loans on the date not gefumfed.
we ran to the RASHG ZTLS levaya from Flatbush, and noticed the 2 cars waiting in front of the brooklyn museum until 770 was ready.
i think we were the only ones not family that gave the kavod hniftar while waiting.
i doubt that any of the bloggers here knew the MAN, but are eager to express their Choshiva Taharidike verter.
Ehr is in olam hames and looking down on the chutzpedeke tipshim un menuvalim that will end up in the fires of gehennem.
get a life. if you cant express your respect SHUT UP.
[I'm sure the Rebbe would agree with my thoughts]

Anonymous said...

Mier Ben
He had a nice levaye in front of 770,
A new blood Libel

meir ben elazar halevi said...

no libels. the levaya was the standard 15 minute from 770.
i'm only talking for the 1/2+ hour the 2 car cortage idled on eastern parkway in front of the bklyn museum until 770 was ready to receive the bar minan. they could have waited in front of 770 saying tehillim btzibur.
i dont know why, i only know what i saw. i think they came from stopping in front of ocean pkway first.

Anonymous said...

I have the original Psak DIn by Rabbi Pinchas Hirschprung chief Rabbi of Canada who ruled the books belong to the Rebbe and that court is permitted to save the books from being sold...

Anonymous said...

BG had no kids....

He adopted I think 2 girls...

DLUKE said...

Yehupitz,

I have seen you comment in this forum for some time know, and I must say, that you are an intelligent individul (not only by this crowd's standards, but even by) universal standards. It seems to me that your "laydah" was bi'kdusha and you were not born to parents that belong to Chabad. Nevertheless, you are impressed, perhapd enthralled by them; at least you don't share the resentment of them that is common to those with minimal seychel and 'giribinkeit'. Why that is the case, is beyond me. Anyways, it ain't my business.
However, the way you were writing about King David and Yoav, it seems that you are of the MO persuasion [Which would explain why you don't see what's bad about Chabad from a hashkafic perspective]. Your analogies are not one that Bney Torah make and that is not how they speak.

From the Goat's Keyboard said...

HM's latest post could have been written by HT. Go figure....

yehupitz said...

DLUKE,
Amazing. A Psychoanalysis that is wrong on every point except for the ones I have been open about, such as not being born Chabad. Maybe my analogies don't speak to people who have never learned Nach.

Have a nice day.

nichoach said...

Meir ben Elazar Halevi:
Your words are meaningful and greatly appreciated.

DLUKE said...

You speak like you 'learn' nach in the JTS library, in between perusal of old newspapers from di Lita.

It all makes sense. A lot of people from that institution were on good terms with Chabad.

Anonymous said...

Mier Ben

You are trying to create a story from nothing...
did the Rebbe go out to the Bies Hachaim and by the end of Shiva? and a big Olam, he spent more then these 10 minutes,

Anonymous said...

Nochoach
As long its Chabad hate it is meaningful, eventough it is nonsense

Anonymous said...

Mr. DL...e:
I imagine you are Jewish ; why would you call yourself after one of the disciples of yoshke p.?

yehupitz said...

DLUKE,

I think you are a person I might admire if you weren't being so... classy... I never set foot in JTS. You sound like you'd know your way around. Why don't you email me, yehupitz@gmail.com,... if you want to have an intelligent and perhaps mutually beneficial conversation.

If you'd like a brief refresher on my POV, http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2010/06/my-affinity-for-chabad-by-yehupitz.html

Anonymous said...

I would like to know how long was Reb Aron Belzer by his one and only brothers Funeral?

I would like to know how long was Reb Yoelish by his one and only Daughters Funeral?

mr. forest said...

Dluke,

Did you ever open a Chabad Sefer from all the Rebbes including the last Rebbe ztl, who was even more radical on Kedushos Hatorah and Ha'ovos and Tanoi'im etc than his predecessors? Or you are so marinated in pure virgin unadulterated hatred that everything you write comes direct from your gut without the slightest thought and knowledge?

Also, the two groups that hate Chabad the most are, interestingly enough, Lithuanians, who imbibed the hate that H' Shach spewed nonstop, and M.O., as David Berger who's Laideh was Bekdusha and tahara and his ideas are matching those of Brisk...... It does seem Tsad Hatumah can't tolerate Kedusha.

lastly, I want to notify you about reality (if you missed it), that despite this hate blog (which strangely is a rare outlet for all Chabad haters to vent, run by Chabadnik) Chabad is still flourishing in the Charaidy world and attracts thousands who are "Noled Bekedusha" and come from such ultra holy places as Ger, Toldos Ahron. Satmer viznitz, Skver etc. B"H, Chabad's events in the Chareidi world attracts hundreds if not thousands of the best and brightest and are enamored by Chabad and the Rebbe the Zadik emes. That's the fact. But hate (as love) is an amazing way to deny reality, (If I hate it it doesn't exist).

The must inspiring Mashpi'im in our time the biggest oivdim, not the status qua Rebbes, are repeating the Rebbes words with awe. (Look up the works of. Biderman, Morgenstern, Kluger, Makover, Erlanger, Wolfson etc)

Virulent rabid haters like you and your ilk will eventuality disappear, and Chabad will remain eternal!

nichoach said...

Anony.7:43
As long as it's Gurarie hate it's meaningful even though the book case was nonsense from the very beginning.Read what the Rayatz writes about Bere in Likutei Dibburim or did Lubavitch start in CH,Brooklyn,N.Y.with the release of the top 40 hit single"uforatzto?"

Mulle said...

Rabbi Hirschprung was hardly a neutral party as we all saw him sit near the Rebbe at many gatherings in 770.
Issuing a psak in a contested case without giving the other party a chance to present its case, is this called a din Torah ? I very much doubt that rav Hirschprung invited BG or Rebbetzin Chana to present their understanding of the case. C'mon even Rav Hirshprung understood that.

Rav Hirshprung's psak was "gold" in uncontested cases like proclaiming the Rebbe as the Mashiach which we all now see clearly he was. How right the chief rabbi of Montreal was in this instance.

komandant said...

am I the only one that smells Schneur here in this comment section?

Jingle Belz said...

With all this Lubavitch talk. where am I supposed to post about Belz?

Anonymous said...

Like all Lubavitcher funerals, the Rashag 's had no shape or form. I was there .
At the feld the Rebbe did not recognize BG even though he seemed to think that he wanted the benkel(actually maybe the Rebbe thought Channah or Minna wanted the benkel).The Rebbe did utter the Halachic formula to BG. But I do not think any efforts at reconciliation were made.
There was a heavy police escort at the feld to make sure that BG was not laid to rest next to his father.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

there are plenty of Belzer threads a little ways down

Jingle Belz said...

Ausgribbener threads.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

bichlal not. Go bring them back to life.

Mulle said...

Kommandant.
I smell him too ,as someone reprinted his piece on the Rashag as Rebbe.
Perhaps Schneur has some supporters out there ?

Kommandant are you a Gerer or a camp Supervisor who eluded the allied forces in 1945 ?
Either way its best to stay underground.

komandant said...

Mule

A gerrer, yes

not some Yankee know nothing

Anonymous said...

Nichoach
"As long as it's Gurarie hate it's meaningful even though the book case was nonsense from the very beginning"
I have no hate for Guraries,I love as much as any chosid from any other chasidus, loved Any of his Rebbes Brother in Laws and it is my personal belief that the the seforim case was a good case, as good as the case of the Tolchever house in Tzefas,and the Karliner Mosdos of the Lelover, Belzer Yeshiva from Elish englander, the Rebbe Reshab with his cousins on Colel Chabad,The Kiryath Sanzer with his BIL etc... I can differ.
The FR wrote wishful thinking on Berie like he wrote about Moshiach,

Lubavich is in to Ufaratzto, thats no secret, you can choose to laugh it is the Month of Adar .

farshlofener kotter said...

Rabbi Belz
What happened to holy belz empire? Can you offer an obituary or a kaddish derabonon?

mr. forest said...

So is the implication that R' Hirshprung isn't kosher? A gaon of that Stature doesnt matter? Fact is the accusation hurled here that Chabad wnet to court without Rabbinic permission is utter lie. So. now you will argue on every Rabbi, that he is deficient. so what? On Issureu Krrissus we can rely but on this we can't?

I knew the Reshag, saw him up front many years, it's amusing to think that people who barely (or Beri...) knew him are thinking of him as Rebbe material (well maybe that we see the Rebbistva is good management skills, and the next in line in Belze is Aran Mordchela...) . He was indeed a fine upstanding gentleman, a great askan dedicated to his cause, but when I saw him I couldn't banish the thought of who ever thought to make him Rebbe? He was so lacking of passion, totally devoid of any Chasidic fire of any kind, so 'Bal Baatish'.

(more to come)

nichoach said...

anon:8:34
The FR had wishful thinking about Bere and Moshiach? So maybe much of dor shevii is also wishful thinking? After all , the rebeyim are all one komah sheleymoh.If you say this about dor shishi then I guess it can be said about dor shevii.An incredible chidush.
One slight difference between the book case and the cases you mentioned. The plaintiff here was none other than someone being portrayed as the greatest Jewish leader since Moshe Rabeinu.That,my friend, is the ultimate game changer.

Mulle said...

Mr. Vald(man),
Are pesokim issued by anyone without listening to both sides? Even the Gaon and posek hador has to listen to both sides. lets ask any rabbi in CH if both sides need to be heard .If so I believe you owe me $25,000 and rabbi David Moshbaum of Danville, Mass(he is the chief rabbi there appointed by the Jews of that city) has already issued a decree in my favor. You mean you claim you don't know me , too late the chief rabbi already paskened.Please give me your PAYPAL # and you can mail me a check tonight. Please answer this question . Did Rabbi H listen to BG , or Channah ? Did he listen to the other side ? The Torah was not given in Sedom or in Moscow Derache darchei Noam ---- The Torah also existed before the world ever heard of Lubavitch.
As far as your taaynes about Rashag's baalhabatishkayt gey taayne zich oyset mitn RASHAB un mitn RAYAATZ and a select group of Zikne Anash who thought differently. Did you see the Rayaatz's letter he sent to the Anash in Palestine when the Rashag went there in the late 1930's ? ,the Rayaatz urged them to welcome his baal habatisher eydem (unlike his other 2 who were chassidim gemurim)who was a yode sefer and has shtikel yedia in Dach, but urged them not to be nispoel from his status as his son in law. Oy leoso elbonah shel Torah !

Anonymous said...

Besides for what was mentioned previously re the Rebbe's and Rebbetzin's suffering during the case as per her only live sister (for that matter, sibling), and the Rebbe's pain too --

To add, that the Rebbe had fasted much during this period, going to the Ohel quite often, un s'hot geshadt in briyus.

re the hishtalshelus of the seforim case and rabbonim/court (including R. Katzman, now of Yeshurun quarterly)- much has been documented in recent years in R. Bogomilsky's sefer "Hei Teves". Check up the facts there.

Agav, I've heard from close sources to R. Katzman, that he himself (!) has been censored in his essays in the publication, by the zealous yes-men of his circle, whereas they see his to'arim etc, names of those he quotes, as not fit for print ch"v..

בערל said...

Mulle chooses to ignore the other writings that the Rayatz wrote about his eydem... nu, nu. ich mach nisht avek, but there's no need to get so excited when we know the mounds of shvochim he wrote about the second eydem, זצוקללה"ה

Mulle said...

Anonymous 8:58 How objective Bogomilsky is 100% true while Katzman has been censored. Ca you expalin that ?Why should any neutral aprty buy that line ?
As far as ther book case goes we will wait until KTAV issues its forthcoming book on the case

yehupitz said...

No need for the Rebbe defenders to attack the stature of the Rashag. Yoel Kahn's diary makes it clear that he knew his maamorim backwards and forwards, but that the chassidim of the time weren't as impressed because he wasn't into the sichos (which pre-Rebbe meant the exciting stories and sippurei tzaddikim etc.)

Someone who was a bochur in 770 in the late 80's also related to me that he was grumpy and taciturn, like forest's words. That's not fair. The man's life became a living hell in 1985. He lost his family, for heaven's sake! Let me tell you: I become a lot grumpier and more bitter when far less misery occurs to me. I cannot imagine what it would be like to live with such sorrow. The man deserves a zochur latov, and for the rest, a good amount of compassion.

Mottel said...

-komandant: While I;m not going to take a guess as to who Mulle is (or isn't) - it is interesting to note that he shares with Schneur the semi-idiosyncratic quirk of mixing his Savs and Thavs.

Belz Empire said...

Medical update

belzempire.blogspot.com is in critical condition due to a lack of attention.

Anonymous said...

HT,
this is sad to read these posts about the Rashag from people who probably never saw him, or only knew him in his declining years. This is just one small story about his bitul to his BIL.

13 tishrei 5741 he has stroke. They rushed him to cornell where he was treated for several weeks. The bochurim had shifts to be with him 24/7. On shmini atzeres 2 bochurim walked over for their shift. They noticed that he was very agitated and something was bothering him. Finally after 2 hours, he turned to them and said, "mit vemen hot der shovoger getanzet". He was referring to hakofos where he would dance with the Rebbe the 1st and 7th. These 2 bochurim were the first people to see him who were at hakofos the first night. During that sukkos, there was alot of murmuring in 770 over who will the Rebbe dance with. They answered "Alein", the Rebbe danced alone holding the Torah. I heard from one of the guys that the change in his facial expression was stunning, something akin to being told you just inherited 100 million dollars.

I was zoiche to be meshamesh him numerous times, and most of the comments here remind me of the famous saying, "Di vos vaisen reden nisht, un de vos raiden vaisen nisht".

He had a distant and difficult relationship with barry, and even chana didn't care for mina. When they got engaged, she told a friend, "zi hot aza misa ponim, es iz afilu nisht do vee tzu geben a kush" (as only a russian can say it). Barry adopted 2 girls but they rarely came around. The closest people to him were some of the staff at ULY, and the Junik family.

He had a tnai nesuin from the FR to stay up all Friday night. Since he lived upstairs in 770, he would come down to the shul and sit there until alois hashachar learning chassidus (mainly torah ohr/lekuteir torah). He would call over guys and start shmuzing with them about what's going on, the food in yeshiva, etc. He wasn't particularly warm, but he wasn't a cold maskil in any sense. One thing i did notice is he was a sharp dresser and always looked very well put together.

Gotta go, to be continued....

Yossel Gutnick said...

OK, very nice, but can we have a new post already?

Anonymous said...

Nichoach
"So maybe much of dor shevii is also wishful thinking?"
unfortunately you are correct that a lot of stuff is wishful thinking, even the Meshichist sees that some stuff is wishful thinking.It is no contradiction with the Koma Shliema.

itchiemayer said...

One of the best posts over, I guess too much R' Shmaryahu, zt"l, for Yossel to handle.

Anonymous said...

Anon
The people that are thriving of the the Gurarie affair, will never get off this band wagon. Guys like Zalman Alpert banked his half a career on Barry of Maplewoods nonsense. Whatever facts you will show them, will not alter their views, Hirshel had awhile back a letter to the Rebbe by the Reshag with chock full of Hiskashrus.It was twisted all ways in order it should not seem that he meant what he wrote. These people will never believe what you heard and saw by the Reshag,even if you would have a Video.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
You should start learning Choshen Mishpat, and stop blogging on this sites. You have a knack for it, I see now that even without ever opening a Choshen Mishpat you know much more then most Gedoilie Yisroel( especially the ones that are not anti Chabad). I imagine what the Torah world will gain when you start learning.

Mulle said...

Anonymous _ So the Chosen Mishpat recommends a din Tore while listening to only 1 side of a case ? If thats true no wonder most Jews left Orthodoxy in the 19th century...
Great in that case I'll send you the psak from the chief rabbi of Danville and you can credit my PAY PAL account for the money.
In his sefer Rabbi Bogomilsky conceeds that Rav Fishel never issued the psak you claim he did. By the way I guess because I never studied Choshen Mishpator "dayanus" as you all refer to it , I am ignorant of the fact that hazmonus do not need to be sent, because I am still awaiting a copy of the hazmonah to a beth din other than the Vaad Rabonei Lubavitch (kloli whatever Zalman G. thought that means) Please tell me to which Rabbinical tribunal BG was summoned.
Since we are talking about dvorim haomdim beramah shel olam, Can I ask the fellows out there why the Bachuim don't tuck their shirts in ? Is it Iskafya or perhaps iskasia ? Or they do it to spite the Rashag lehotzih milaban...

snagville said...

This post and the comments section is why this is the best blog on the Internet. While these internal politics are not so easy for this Litvishe snag to follow as I have a serious lack of knowledge on this subject, we can all agree this is riveting. Tzig, don't post anew until this runs out. BTW, I concur with others, I said to myself 80 comments ago that I somehow fell Shneur is back, I just can't figure out which one it is.

Anonymous said...

@"gadlus" of Rashag in farbrengens --

Post-5710 he would just cull over sichos and Lkuutei Dibburim from Rayatz as if it were his own. This smacks of the heintige rebbelach, who do same [well, at least they give credit, der heilige shver, fohter..]. Unlike the Rebbe vos hoht gegossen un gegossen EIGENE toyres! He did give crdeit at times too.

@his tnai nisuin of staying up Friday night learning: In his later years, he asked the Rebbe re how to keep it. The Rebbe said, lern, un oib m'shloft ein, at least you're not GOING to sleep.. And so he did. (Similar to the difference of Alter Rebbe vs. R. Hillel Paritcher with matrunisa d'za on Friday: AR fell asleep, while HR dozed IIRC).

Some nice links:
- A michtov kloli he wrote, a picture with Jaffes, a "hanocho" of his talks (written by an admirer?), etc [-See comments there too]:
http://pirsumrishon.blogspot.com/search/label/rashag

- Some of his correspondence with the Rebbe:
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=377

And:
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=851
And:
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=1411

- Rebbetzin CM's caring for Rashag (scroll down a bit), related by a mashbak of his:
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=cols&id=196

Anonymous said...

Briefly,kudos to anon 2:38 a.m. I'm with you. Re: the levay I was there right next to the Rebbe, the Rebbe was there for the kevurah, kadish etc. looked at BG and said Hamakom Yenachem vee geherik. He waited till BG left and then went into the tziyon (after washing his hands. There was no big police presence, BG was assured of his safety (and dignity) before coming. Don't make up stories. I(n regards to thye psak: The court was the only way to give an enforcable injunction so that he would stop selling what was already taken. The original psak was for that purpose. Read the transcripts of the case. You'll see that Barry himself refused the din toirah after that because he figured that he would win in court!

YT Sheini

Anon3 said...

"Since we are talking about dvorim haomdim beramah shel olam, Can I ask the fellows out there why the Bachuim don't tuck their shirts in"

Can you please clarify how this "chet"is relevant to this discussion about Rashag?
In any case even though I do not subscribe to that mode of dress myself there is a very good reason for it's.
implementation namely that the beged not be bunched up thereby possibly decreasing the correct halachik size for the tallis koten.I know it's not exactly "Beau brummel" mode of dress but call it a "hiddur Mitzvah" if you will.

"He had a distant and difficult relationship with barry, and even chana didn't care for mina." who was the "epitome" of "eidelkite" and "gutzkite".In addition the relationship between the RASHAG and is his wife was not exactly a blissful one even before the seforim blowup and lets put it at that.

Anonymous said...

Just saw, that in the pirsumrishon-blog which I linked to in my previous comment -- one of the "michtovim kloli'im" which Rashag writes to chassidim [kislev 5712], he refers to the Rebbe as "nosi", although it's basic knowledge that he accepted the Rebbe about 5714 (stopped making his own minyanim with aliyos etc).

Anyone with a hesber? Or was it bloshon am zu, "PR" to win them over somewhat?

yehupitz said...

A refresher: http://guravitzer.blogspot.com/2007/12/hey-teves-facts.html

The only assertion that can be questioned is #8. I'm sure there was personal contact and a private behind-the-scenes effort to clear up the matter in some way, but a paper asserting the Beis Din claim has not been shown. Nathan Lewin did claim that Krinsky came to his office with a paper allowing them to go to court, at least for an injunction.

To me, the biggest refutation of the "Why didn't they go to Beis Din" argument is that it's a complaint that was made by Satmar and the Litvish Misnageid crowd, but it's a complaint that was not once made by Barry or his lawyer in any venue.

The biggest refutation of the contention made by some (SZA)that the Halacha would have favored BG is found in the last comment to date on that post. I paste it here:

As for yerushah: daughters inherit wen there are no sons (as opposed to widow who is merely supported). Yerushah of daughter is halachically in domain of her husband. Grandchildren are not part of yerushah (in absence of will) until death of their parent. Thus neither daughter had any rights to dispose of yerushah in lifetime of their husbands. Then there is the sugya of nichsei tzon barsel and nichsei melug, which allow husband to deal with yerushah - except that in some cases he is liable and in others he is not.

Anonymous said...

It's klohr (to me at least) that people aren't necessarily interested in scrolling down to wikileaks' posts to comment or view comments there, so i'm posting here --

Re wikileaks, another point of the Pnei Menachem (this IN his ksav yad!) re the Rebbistiveh, and posted here a few years ago (comments there are great as well!):

http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2008/07/rebbe-business-ger-style.html

Anonymous said...

An unrelated question, but I recentlyt heard from a Belzer chosid, that Hrh"K R' Ahron zt"l, also left Yerushalayim erev pesach after the six day war.

Was this the same vort as the Lubavticher Rebbe's zehirus re chiyuv korban Pesach in alten shtot (only for a few years, till ein yad yisroel tekifah, there was no chshash furthermore)? Or was it a slightly different svoro?

Who knows any other gedolim/kreizen who were choshesh then to the above? Thanks,

yehupitz said...

Shneur is a good friend. Anything about his friend leads him to reveal his deiah.

I'm glad he's back. But stop noodging him or he'll go away again.

And I hope whoever it is, wherever he is, he will reveal more knowledge about all sorts of things, and not only views of BG.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"Anonymous _ So the Chosen Mishpat recommends a din Tore while listening to only 1 side of a case ? If thats true no wonder most Jews left Orthodoxy in the 19th century..."
You are talking like a idiot, nobody left yidishkiet, because of Choshen Mishpat, they left because of hilchas Avodah Zora ( Mendelsonian Kefira) or Even hoEzer ( shiksa syndrome). There was no better justice by the judicial systems in pre ww2 Europe.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"Please tell me to which Rabbinical tribunal BG was summoned."
according to Rabonim he had a din of a Mechalel Shabos and can be called to court.

Anonymous said...

I'm Anon 12:12

Sorry for the fast comment re R. Ahron Belzer zt"l, but he was niftar already in 5727, so apparently it was 5708 or the like (what would be the svoro then? there was no kibush yerushalayim? Maybe the facts are wrong, and were about another rebbe). But my question re the other kreizen still remains..

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"If thats true no wonder most Jews left Orthodoxy in the 19th century..."
it was foolish to leave the fold, and rely on the fairness of the gentiles.Since the gentile Sifton screwed up badly, he told BG that his uncle has the full ownership,
So the gentile is even worse then the Rav Hirschprung, tell all the Jews they can come back.

Anonymous said...

Mulle
"Can I ask the fellows out there why the Bachuim don't tuck their shirts in ? Is it Iskafya or perhaps iskasia ? Or they do it to spite the Rashag lehotzih milaban..."
because of a hidur in Alte Rebbes Sidur,
so you are free to create some new issues.

shoyn! said...

Shirts tucked out-Why is an Arrow shirt necessary for the shiur of the talis koten to be questioned?C'mon we're just a bunch of generic Boro Parker Fellas who are curious why the OT boys dress with an untucked shirt? Is it matrunisa d'za? Or do you have the slightest idea what you're talking about? Which flavor kool-aid do you drink to dress this way and talk this way?Would Reb Hille Paritcher even look at you?You learn Hassidus and you mock the entire Bais-Harav?Who is your leader-the owner of the wine bar with the multicultural wait staff and multi ethnic clientele and.......which I won't mention because this is a family blog.

Chicago said...

Herschel will you post Reb Yoel Kahn Wikileaks from תש"י -תשי"א that is loaded with bombes on the Risha"g

fort ham pkwy said...

Rav Hirschprung was used by Lubob just like they used him and R'Aharon Soloveichik with the infamous moshiach letters
Lubobs":use and abuse

fort ham pkwy said...

Yehupitz
"mis somcho"???
You know very little about Lubavitch and u already feel like you are are a gantzeh mar berav ashi!
I learned in the Lubavitcher Yeshiva on Dean St before you were born

Anonymous said...

Facts:

1) The Rayatz' yoman of Eretz Yisroel & the way he describes the Rashag
(negatively) k'yodua -- in a way he never wrote about the Ramash & Horenstein.

2) Goldin's yoman about the hellish years of 5680-1 in Rostov (1st year of
Rayatz' nesius) & the terrible attitude the Rashag took against supporting the
yeshiva bochurim & faculty b'gashmiyus (we are talking about pikuach nefesh mamosh here...).
In fact, the Rayatz sided with Goldin against the Rashag.

3) Even Reb Shmuel Levitin was against the Rashag becoming Rebbe from more or
less the beginning & felt that the Ramash was a better candidate. Reb Shmuel's
only issue was to still respect Beis hoRav, i.e. Reb' Nechomoh Dinah.

4) The Rashag only started to attend farbrengens only starting Shabos Mevorchim Iyar
5712 (which incidentally, was when the Rebbe chastised Reb Shmuel for leaving
farbrengens when the Rebbe would say a ma'amor...)

5) Founding of Oholei Torah that competed with the Rashag's insitution (ca.
1955).

6) During the same time (ca. 1956?), the Rebbe took his name off Tomchei
Temimim.

7) The obvious plagarism of the Rashag during his farbrengens of 5710-1, as Reb Yoel mentions (I think).

8) A certain bochur ploni ben ploni who, in Tishrei 4711 went up to the Rashag's
apt. & threatened with a weapon (knife?) to kill the Rashag if he
doesn't concede to the Rebbe. (Yes, the attack on Chanah in 1985 was not the
first time...) The Rebbe had the ploni ben ploni shipped back to Israel &
asured him from ever returning to 770. [I vividly recall seeing when this p.
ben p. finally returned to 770 30 YEARS later for shnas hashloshim & seeing him
walk into 770 for the first time since. He was standing downstairs in the back &
looked bleary-eyed, as if he couldn't believe what he is seeing versus his
memories of the place 30 years earlier.]

9) The way he would once in a while go over during farbrengens to talk to the
Rebbe & the Rebbe would not give him that much respect (we all saw this).

10) The Rashag sitting up there in his choshuveh spot to the right of the Rebbe
in his balebatishe, half-listening posture.

11) His weak, non-encouraging mode during his farbrengens of that first year 5710, as
Reb Yoel writes.

12) How the bochurim made letzonus of the Rashag on 10
Teves 5787 during the Didan Notzach celebrations, when the Rashag attempted to daven for the omud for R' Nechomo Dinah's yortzeit. (B'eynay ro'isi.)

13) How the Rashag was so into his looks, especially to get a perfect haircut from the barber & being upset if it wasn't perfect. I would go to the same
barber & get my haircut after him, so I saw this.)

15) How when I once went over to him to show him a picture I had of him with
the Rayatz, he pulled it out of my hand, walked off, & never gave it back to me, without
asking.

16) How, more than once, he would get paranoid that they would break into his
office on Ocean Parkway & would scream at me & others about this. (He would try
to get us to get out of the yeshivah library every night, since there was a side
door between his office & the library.)

& I can go on.

On the other had, there are A LOT of great things to say about him -- but that
I leave up to all his defenders here.

The 2 points I am making here are: (1) that he was a complex individual & he
wasn't only one way or another, but imperfect like all the rest of us (&
sometimes even less so); & (2) that many chasidim didn't really respect him in
the way he is being portrayed here. It was more out of cordiality & because the
chasidim knew that the Rebbe's rotzon was not to tchepe him, vd"l.

Va'asaem b'tov.

-- ZIY

mr. forest said...

It's always hard to have a real debate when the terms of the debate move contiunously. Initially there was a charge that Chabad went to court without Rabbinical permission, that was proven to be false! Now a new debate ensues if their ruling is correct or not!

Argument's about correct ruling regarding Choshen Mishpat hark back to Moshe Rabainu's times. So, there is no point to rehash the issue unless those who are card carrying member of Barri Gurari's aborted Chasidic court (or phantom alternative Reshags court where Hr' Savitziki was Rosh Yeshiva and Carlbach the top Mashpia isntead of Kahan. BTW, Hr' Savitzki was ever a candidate? Why not continued with Rosh Yeshiva Remila?) are attempting to retry the past.

Going back to Reshag. Again, its a real mystery why was he picked from the best of the best of Tomchei Temimim? Was he considered the biggest "oived"? No, not by any stretch of imagination. Was he a great Talmudic scholar? Never heard of that in my life. He was considered a "Maskil" (In the Chasidic Chabad sense, of course), but at least in my days (which was prior to the Seforim saga) that wasn't very evident. Also, we don't see any question regarding Chasidic thought that came through Ryatz's desk that ever was sent to him that he shall solve it but instead was immediately referred to the second S.O.L.).

So having a up close view of the man who was held with greatest esteem in the Chabad court. (Contrary to the myth propagated here and elsewhere by know nothings that Reshag was a persecuted fellow, before the seforim incident the Reshag his household was greatly respected there was even a certain aura about them as the holy family, I recall seeing even Barry coming going and there was absolutely no disrespect.No one dared utter an ill word. The Detroit crew dared not express their feelings in public or in private until the Seforim story broke. Their vies remain and was a minority view) I can say, that notwithstanding the fact that he was chosen as a SOL ( I don't know that it means anything besides the mere fact that in those circumstances he was considered a proper match to Chana, the SOL of the Maharash weren't also that great Vedal), the unvarnished objective truth shall be said, that he exuded an air of mediocrity, no spiritual drive, no sense of religious urgency. Being the Menahal of Tomche Temimim which the Rebbe ZTL left almost completely to his jurisdiction since the Shver appointed him as its head, and was therefore somewhat autonomous, it was strange that he rarely was a spiritual figure he was the money man but not the spiritual animating personality. Why? I never heard from him a spiritual insight or view. (Even from diaries I saw in the Reyatz's era. I saw that he "understood" Chasidous but never "farbrenged", the ultimate venue for the Chasidic spirit to come forth. Also. I never heard some insight from him on Chabad. Judaism, contemporary issues etc. . So was he simply so suppressed and in distress that he was drained of all spirit? (That's for Mulla to believe, my eyes and my skill to observe people tells me other wise.

In the end let me emphasize that in no way do I want to say that he was a nobody. He surely had a lot class and aristocracy in the Gurari manner, (not Zalman... who I may say had no class at all but was full of fire and zest), but far from being an inspiring figure to dream of him that the Chasidic worls lost a "moshe Betzalel" or "Mendel Paviyazner" or Bilgriar Ruv... that figure he only exist in the fantasy of the Chabad haters.

FLUKE said...

Did you ever open a Chabad Sefer from all the Rebbes including the last Rebbe ztl, who was even more radical on Kedushos Hatorah and Ha'ovos and Tanoi'im etc than his predecessors? Or you are so marinated in pure virgin unadulterated hatred that everything you write comes direct from your gut without the slightest thought and knowledge?
----
I have read many writings from the LR. Interestingly, his writings are defnetely distinct from the classical and traditional commentators. In mainstream (ultra) orthdoxy, there exists an awe for the previous do'ros and constant statements of how we are nothing in comparison to them. Conversely, the LR's writings are very lacking in this matter, kiyaduah.

Chabad has the whole concept of yeridas hado'ros all skewered. They think it hit everybody else real hard, while in Chabad
the generations are only getting better. Which leads to a large gap between them and everyone else. It also explains why the Rebbe had the temerity to actually hand Reb Moshe a dollar bill.
We can discuss brithday parties, Rebbe mobils, whistling, court cases... a different time.
Don't give me that nonsense of his bittul to his FIL. All of you thought those references of "Nuseeey" and Mesiah was a reference to the Rashag's BIL - not to his shver. You were all waiving your hand in the air screaming long live the king, in the sweet ol'e pre 3 Tamuz days, waiting with bated breath for.... Every single one of you. From the ne-hour-a-week Chossid (i.e., fellow who learns Hasidus for an hour a week and thinks that it does something for him) to the big "maskilim".

Anonymous said...

R' Yoel's yoman is not a major wikileaks, whatever..

I don't see the PDF online, but this link can get you there) look from 5710-5714 for R' Yoel's michtovim/yomanim..

http://www.yomanim.com/index.php?title=%D7%91%22%D7%94

Anonymous said...

"The Kiryath Sanzer with his BIL "

Does anyone know what he's talking about?

Which BIL, and what was the fight? I've never heard of this.

Anonymous said...

Fluke
"Conversely, the LR's writings are very lacking in this matter, kiyaduah."
Kiyaduah, my foot, Just learn 1 rashi sicha, and you will see and feel the kedusha of the rebbes emuna in a Rishon, he beliefs that every move of Rashi has a deep cheshbon, many people even smirk of this kind of Emuna. You never learned a Vort of the rebbe, you fluke and am heoretz

Anonymous said...

Fluke
"It also explains why the Rebbe had the temerity to actually hand Reb Moshe a dollar bill. "
#1 he never gave a dollar for Reb Moshe
#2 dolar giving was not a Sheriem tielung scene, he based it on a besht which was holy and dear by him, and was ready to do it ad Mesiras nefesh (so much for the Lack of awe of earlier doiros)

Anonymous said...

If you dont know it then be happy, you know 1 rechilus less.

Anonymous said...

Fluke
#3 Did Reb Menachem zemba take sheraim from the Gerer Rebbe
Did the Chebiner take Sheraim from the Belzer ruv

nichoach said...

A couple of dollars would have made BG happy,the books would have been returned for a few dollars more and The rayatz's family would be well,and there'd be sholom al yisroel.On the other hand how many hundreds of thousands[millions?] were spent on lawyers? How were the later years of everyone farshvartzed gevorn? If you understand this let me know.

Casper the friendly ghost said...

The thread continues and continues but no one has mentioned to which tribunal the Rebbe or Aguch or Tzaguch or Naguch or Daguch called BG to ? No one has shown any indication of any documented neutral rabbinic permission to go to Arkaot.
All I know is that Rav Hirshprung correctly ruled that the Rebbe was Mashiach ! okay und vayter ?
To the gentleman who claims BG was not upset at not going to rabbinic courts, not true he did wish to settle this in : private with his uncle, in Beth Din (while the case was going on he was still speaking to Berel Levine and other Anash ask them !) or through negotiations.let me ask the chachmei Lubavitz if as the rebbe claimed it was all about money why could an uncle and 2 sisters and a nephew not sit down and work out a settlement ? After all the Rebbe was Ishpastusa De Moshe... and Moshe was the anav mikol adam so it should have been a cinch to settle . Don't Chazal praise the neelavim veyno Olvim ?
We now have talked about shirts, Arrow shirts , were they Egyptian 100% cotton ?)Belz , The Gerer Rebbe's brother in Pabience,Bilgroyer rav, the Rashag's marriage has been dissected (I wonder how many marriages in CH or anywhere outside of President Street can undergo similiar scrutiny}.Let us cease the ,obfuscation. What Rabbinical court was the Rashbag called to, and who gave reshus to go to Arkaot.And even if reshus was given why would the Nasi hador and Mashiach in potentio give a nesinas koach to Goyische courts ?
PS Fascinating that the same compadres who say you can not speak about Rashag without knowing him personally speak about BG as if they knew him ? Did he drive up to 770 in a sports car. was he mechalel Shabbes befarhesya as another very close living relative of the Nasi hador was and is ? Its okay. You guys are so brainwashed you leave hundreds of kvittlekh at the grave of a Jew who walked about Tel Aviv with a cigarette befumbei lehachis all the Anash in Tel Aviv in front of the Great Synagogue !! !!! I have nothing against this man and his family , , but to make him a saint? BG was a Shomer Shabbes Jew a musmach of TVD, (and don't tell me about phone bills) As Yoel Kahan said "ich ken Yaponezish??" so too I wish you sayanaro ! Zayntz mech gezint !

Casper the friendly ghost said...

Rav Dov Weiss Chadban im Jslm with the rebbe in Netanya over baaylus in Jslm.

Anon3 said...

"C'mon we're just a bunch of generic Boro Parker Fellas who are curious why the OT boys dress with an untucked shirt? Is it matrunisa d'za? Or do you have the slightest idea what you're talking about? Which flavor kool-aid do you drink to dress this way and talk this way?Would Reb Hille Paritcher even look at you?You learn Hassidus and you mock the entire Bais-Harav?Who is your leader-the owner of the wine bar with the multicultural wait staff and multi ethnic clientele and......" AHA!!!! So here we have another "intelligent" subscriber to the "Kool Aid" school of thought
Your question ,which was completely off topic,was never the less answered in a polite non aggressive manner by yours truly and another poster who suggested you look it up in the Alter Rebbes siddur.Your "positive" "loshon nikiyeh" response is indicative of the usual brand of preschooler mentality that is not really interested in any sort of response.I strongly suggest that you get back to your playmates at the playpen or back on your meds or both and wash them down with your favored getrank, "Kool Aid" of any flavor.

Anonymous said...

Casper....
"After all the Rebbe was Ishpastusa De Moshe... and Moshe was the anav mikol adam so it should have been a cinch to settle "
But the Anav Mikol Heodam buried Korech for trying to undermine his Nesius.

Anonymous said...

Caspar/Mulla/
"All I know is that Rav Hirshprung correctly ruled that the Rebbe was Mashiach ! okay und vayter ?"
are the whole torah of rav hirshprung trief, even retroactively 10 years before.

Anonymous said...

Casper:
1) Injuction! Get it! Ginsberg Beis Din heter.

2) Since he's a shoiche afar I don't want to have to post for all you revisionists the proofs that he was a mechalel shabbos. It's in the court transcripts, look it up. Don't be a coward! (His golf records, his signature on a fedex that arrived on shobbos, the distance from his nhome to the shul he attended, his basic sheseeka which amounted to an admission in court and backtracking by the lawyers that it's not nogaya. So go back to the graveyard or whwerever friendly ghosts hang out....
YT Sheini

Anonymous said...

Schneur/Casper/ Mulla
"BG was a Shomer Shabbes Jew a musmach of TVD, (and don't tell me about phone bills) As Yoel Kahan said "ich ken Yaponezish??" so too I wish you sayanaro ! Zayntz mech gezint !"
you can look in the deposition before the Goyishe Courts that he was driving Shabos to a gym,
Your Rebbe (BG)or his Mashbak (Zalmen Alpert ) did not refute it in front of the Judge. Please explain why the phone records are not proof enough.

Anonymous said...

Shneur / Mulla/ Casper
"You guys are so brainwashed you leave hundreds of kvittlekh at the grave of a Jew who walked about Tel Aviv with a cigarette befumbei lehachis all the Anash in Tel Aviv in front of the Great Synagogue !! !!! "
nobody is brainwashed, it is the Rebbes brother and chasidim believe that we ccan help the Aliya of the Neshoma even after death. So the more they go to his Kever to get a Aliya for the Rebbes brother

FLUKE said...

"Conversely, the LR's writings are very lacking in this matter, kiyaduah."
Kiyaduah, my foot, Just learn 1 rashi sicha, and you will see and feel the kedusha of the rebbes emuna in a Rishon, he beliefs that every move of Rashi has a deep cheshbon, many people even smirk of this kind of Emuna. You never learned a Vort of the rebbe, you fluke and am heoretz
-------
Nah. I give the LR credit for learning the Mizruchy, Tzeydah Laderech, Gur Aryeh and other perushim on Rashi AH"T; I respect that he invested the time and energy to learn Rashi as a limud - like it should be done. I am also inspired by the novelty of many of the LR's discources (particularly the intriguing disposition on the question if Moshe was hungry when he came down from the mountain; a topic that was never discussed ever before).

However, you make a rather weak case when you point to respect he had for Rashi. I was referring to a lack of respect or awe for generations as a whole, that preceeded his niseeeyus.

BTW, for the record, I don't know if the LR actually handed Reb Moshe a dollar or not. The point is that he could have, and no Chabatzker would bat an eyelash. Fech!

It is the lack of ability to richtig upshatzen gadlus and to be mayrich a zach that is so glaring. The Chabad people, hence, have difficulting prioritizing in this matter [ although some of the less deranged ones (in their heart of hearts, right next to the yellow flag) have a certain level of ha'kur'ah, that the Messianic insistence on the Noahide laws was kind of "unconventional"] and tend to evaluate things in the extreme [i.e. "very important" (if the Rebbe stresses it) or "very unimportant" (if the Rebbe didn't really stress it)

mr. forest said...

Luke!

In order to prove that you are in the ballgame of being serious, bring at least one, but one single example that the Rebbe didn't write with ultimate awe and respect to anyone from the previous generation (excluding his contemporaries of course).

His writing is fused and imbued with the sense of sacredness for every word of the gedolay hadoros, not talking about Rishonim and higher up. Either you are a brazen liar or someone who really floats in some different planet where up is down and down is up.

Reb Moshe a dollar? What? When? Where? And how is giving a dollar to a contemporary sage connected to the reverence (or irreverence)that Rebbe showed to words of even Achronim?

But your lunatic rage and rant betrays you, that pure visceral hate is the source of your bile completely divorced of fact and logic.

Anon3 said...

Hirshel
You must be "laughing all the way to the bank".Not much till 200 hits and nary a word from the blog owner.You really hit a "gold mine" this time.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

חאחאחאחאחאחאחאחאחאחאחאחאחחא

ok, I got to the bank...

mr. forest said...

Since it takes time until my reply is posted. I noticed that in nanosecond you changed your tune and facts. Now, you don't know anymore if the Rebbe gave a dollar, but if he would have given a dollar Chasidim wouldn't lift a eyebrow,! Wow! who is really deranged in this forum? And talking about on the moment revisionism (wait until the virtual ink dries)

Also now there is no proof that the there is a MO view towards Torah pervasive in LR sichos, but rather the sense that the in L. people think that the generations go upwards. There is a lot to talk on this topic but I must go.

Anonymous said...

Schneur/Casper/ Mulla

"and who gave reshus to go to Arkaot.And even if reshus was given why would the Nasi hador and Mashiach in potentio give a nesinas koach to Goyische courts ?"

I think you were answered already 6 times. By writing Mashiach, By paseling Rav Hirshprung, By laughing off Rav Klien, By mimicking Vaad Rabonie Chabad noting will change, they are all raboinim and they paskened, and every Jew from the water carrier to the Mashiach can lead his halachic life according to them. You will rant till in the morning, but if a Ruv paskened may he be the Udvari Dayan, then the Mashiach can fight for his rights, even if on the other side you got the potential Chabad Rebbe, the famous Musmach of TVD

LUKE said...

In order to prove that you are in the ballgame of being serious, bring at least one, but one single example that the Rebbe didn't write with ultimate awe and respect to anyone from the previous generation (excluding his contemporaries of course).
---

It's the overall lack of respect. The awe is just not there - it is a subtle, but glaring omission. [Again, I was also referring to future generations as a whole]

RE: the backword yeridat hado'oros, I am sure you can wax on. It is different than the rest of Israel and tradition.

For the record, the LR didn't respect his "contemporaries" ('if one is allowed to use that term") or people from the generation preceeding him. That exclusion of others (besides himself) is well known. Obviously, the his utter disregard for everyone else served to feed the Messianic fervor around him.

Anonymous said...

Fluke
"I was referring to a lack of respect or awe for generations as a whole, that preceeded his niseeeyus."
It does not stop to amaze me, this blatant chutzpa and viciousness. Years ago I saw a footnote of the Rebbe on a Michtav Sofer of Reb Shimon Sofer, he writes something like Loi Zochisi Lehovin, I was then shocked, since the Rebbe who was born and raised in Russia, was not brought up with the Hungarian blind respect for the Chasam Sofer and for sure not for his sons.He is only for him a run of the mill Achron, and he writes with extreme respect.
Their is no reason to argue on such a obvious issue.

Shoyn! said...

Anon3; I obviously know quite well why you dress the way you do. As usual, you have many disguises to hide your true motives. The good news is that the only people you fool with your zabovanes are some MO yoldn but Prof. Berger is working hard on that front too. Certainly the other Hasids know exactly what's going on;they're nobody's fools.Like all good cults you guys have multiple levels of disinformation. Enjoy the messianic Kool-Aid.

Fed up in Peoria said...

This is one of the all time great posts and I'm nebach clueless.

Anonymous said...

Fluke
"BTW, for the record, I don't know if the LR actually handed Reb Moshe a dollar or not. The point is that he could have, and no Chabatzker would bat an eyelash. Fech!"
The story changed it is not a fact, it is sheer hallucination Fech

Anonymous said...

Fluke
"the LR didn't respect his "
what does this mean in simple english, he told his chasidim not to pasken as Reb Moshe? Rav Wozner? Reb Ovadiaa Yosef?

zudike yoich said...

Anon6:42...And who told the entire world what your movement was all about? None other than Rav M.M. Shach the universally accepted gadol hador. And there's nothing you can do about it. You can pretend it doesn't bother you but we all know it does. It'll follow you around wherever you go.Did Rav Shach attack Ger,Belz,Slonim,Karlin? I'm afraid not.And I've got news for you he didn't attack Habad,he attacked the cult that Habad had become.By the way your friend Reb Menashe Hakoton has had some pretty harsh words for you lately-he's the gadol hador-why don't you listen to him?

Anonymous said...

Zudike Yoich
what does your post have to do with the price of tea in China, Glatt a hate burp

zudike yoich said...

Anon:7:34
No, a love burp. Throw away the avodah zorah of meshichism and rejoin the Jewish people.Otherwise all your people will end up looking like Mulle; and I'm not talking about Mulle, Caspar the Ghost's shvogger.

Anon3 said...

Shoyn! said...
"Anon3; I obviously know quite well why you dress the way you do. As usual, you have many disguises to hide your true motives. The good news is that the only people you fool with your zabovanes are some MO yoldn but Prof. Berger is working hard on that front too. Certainly the other Hasids know exactly what's going on;they're nobody's fools.Like all good cults you guys have multiple levels of disinformation. Enjoy the messianic Kool-Aid"
Like I said before, the "Kool Aid" gang is in full swing.Can somebody please enlighten us as to what this "Kool Aid addict" is raving about?He knows how I dress,how other "Hasids" what??? "Many disguises".Yes ,I'm really that "masked rider of yesteryear" the Lone Ranger.So your a "Hasid" Of Dr. Berger.Nu Nu."Meshichist" me?You got it wrong buddy I'm really a member of the "Boreinu cult".
Have nuts like this been given a day off from the asylum?
Hirshel
I'm answering this nut case so that we can get you closer to the 200 mark.Hope you appreciate it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm giddy just thinking about 200!
thanks, anon3!

Anonymous said...

zudike yoich

"avodah zorah of meshichism"

give me a source that believing in a moshiach that is not alive is Kefira then I will have 2nd thoughts, If their is bichlal a Bar Pelugta.

mr. forest said...

The fluke luke there is no point to dispute, he just fabricates thing on the fly.

About the reign of Teror of HS this another topic. Just on thought.

I thought yes, they are right. he didn't attack Rachmstrivka, Viznitz, Belz, etc (Of course not, he was the giant fig leaf) since his great skill was crushing his Lithuanian Competitors.The story how his thugs (called today in their own world Mechablim") muzzeled and silenced the giants who towered over him in Lomdos and geonos (as every one with a trained eye can see in their works vis a' vis Avi Ezri) wasnt told yet. He destroyed Reb Mechil Fienstien a peerless Gaon in his times (dwarfs the Steipler and H.S.), Reb Chaim Greinman who before the delegitimization campaign, all the greats of Bnei Berak sat in his presence with utter self effacement till the goons of HS terror brigade demonized him and he became some unknown entity, likewise Reb Dov Landau who dared question the wisdom of the Degel, and the house of Brisk etc .

So perhaps the Lithuanian roots of Chabad was the reason for his Jihad.(OK, its a joke)

boris said...

giddy without mashke, or did you have some to enhance your excitement?

Anonymous said...

zudike yoich


"Mulle; and I'm not talking about Mulle, Caspar the Ghost's shvogger."
is their something bad about them? and who are they? u know them?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Boris, imagine that!

no mashke on the job...

Anonymous said...

hirshle, your still working now?

Anonymous said...

הוי
זהיר
בגחלתן

Anonymous said...

if only you would work for anash you would be able to drink on the job... imagine this
imagine that

mashke can help if its of the right quality and the correct quality

Anonymous said...

Where is up to with his Masie yoidoiv?
the Yated is a offical rag in alot of towns it is for free, more busy fighting Rav Stienman and rav Ovadia, then fighting Chabad, ( was it not created for that purpose?)
The Sheraris is in the dumps while Reb Moshe Landaus hashgocha is growing by the hour?

His goons are burying the greatest yeshiva on the hill.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אזוי לאנג ווי די ליכטעלע ברענט קען מען נאך פארריכטן......

Anonymous said...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...
yes, Boris, imagine that!

no mashke on the job...

isnt your job blogging? and correcting the chabafd bashing so prevelant online?
and hafotzas hamayanos, mayanos of mashke like they have in conversation levi yitzchok the greatest shule on earth, i mean le brea avenue

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