Sunday, July 6, 2008

אוי, רבי



It's been 14 years since that fateful day - many of us never thought we'd see - came and went. The sun came up the East next day and went down in the West just as always, yet for many of us the world was never the same. Despite being without the Rebbe for 14 years the love is there just as always - sorry, much stronger. We pass it on to our children too, and very often the love the children have is even stronger than those who saw and heard. Try and explain that to someone who has never had a relationship with a Rebbe, - any Rebbe - and you get blank stares; they cannot relate to it, and they jump to conclusions about you. I can sit here and talk about the rebbe's greatness in this field or in that field, but all that just hurts the "cause" I may be trying to further. All I can see is that it's shame on every Yid who didn't have a shaychus with the Rebbe, either through the Rebbe's Torah or by some other means. We have such a good thing, we have a Rebbe, and we'd like to tell all our friends about it so that they too can have it.

224 comments:

1 – 200 of 224   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Tzig, do you go to his grave? Or are you from those that dont believe hes in the cemetery? Today is Reb Shneur Kotler zatzals yahrtzet. it is also the day that the shabsai tzvi of the 20th century was finaly silenced B'H. its sad how many yidden are brainwashed into that cult.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I don't believe people like you are allowed to procreate, that's what I don't believe.

Anonymous said...

Typical chabadsker/JforJ response. When you say soomething to them either youll just get plain bad mouthing and name calling, or youll get non-answer programed cult like ranting.

Hashem yeracheim! how sad!

CHNYOCK said...

however great the shaychus was, remember that it WAS....

lchaim vlivrocha!

Hirshel Tzig said...

however great the shaychus was, remember that it WAS...

that's where you're wrong, and the fact that the Rebbe was Nistalek is irrelevant to what I was saying.

Chaim said...

it's so sad that with the Rebbe they want us to forget and move on. No other Tzadik was treated this way. Can you image if we talked about the greatness of moshe rabbeinu and some other frumme yid came over and said, "was ... don't forget, how great he was ..."

chutzpah mamash.

If you don't take what a tzdaik taught and apply it, even years and centuries aftr his death then what was it all worth?

yoshe kalb said...

Anonymous of 2:47:00: To his I go, to your's I'll dance...

Arthur said...

Relevant to the two posts by "anonymous" Whether they are of two separate individuals that are haters or the same individual that is a hater and paint all of Lubavitch with the same hateful rhetoric.
Last night I went to the Ohel and stood on line for over three hours, till I was given exactly two minutes to read my Pan due to the to the tens of thousands of people of all branches of Yiddishkeit that were there to pay their respects and be mispallel at the kever of the greatest Tzadik of our time.I repeat the greatest Tzadik of our time not withstanding your hate.
There were Satmar,Gerrer,Vhinetzer,Munkatcher,Bobover,Belzer and many other chassidim.There were Sfardem of every color and hue.There were Jews from all levels of observance from Chraidi to the irreligious and every one in between.Every one had his or her story to tell about their relationship and interaction with the Rebbe ZY"A.Their was no mention of meshcistim ,Shabasai Tvi ,Frank,Korach or otherwise.
The stories may have been different but their tochen was the same.The Ahavas Yisroel the care the Rebbi had for every single Jew in the world.
The Rebbi often said that he abhors the use of the words kiruv RECHOKIM because who are we and what are we to judge who is truely a rochok or a korov.Something that the yeshisveshe world in their haughtiness and narrow mindedness could never perceive of.
Conspicuously missing were the Litveshe yeheveshe crowd who in their narrow parochialism wouldn't recognize a true "gadol", if, metaphorically speaking, they bumped into one in broad day light.As one yeshiva Bochur wrote me on another blog, that back in 1998 his Rosh Hayishive (probably some two bit "godol" maybe the rosh yeshiva DeHacensack) said that we we have to pray for the "sinful Lubavitchers to do teshuva and "and then we will accept them back into the fold" but he sees that that there are some Chabadnics who have done teshuva and are therefore welcome back.I told him to tell his Rosh Hayishiva that I am sure that all the repentant sinners of Lubavitch will surely sleep better knowing that and that we are touched by his tfillos but it would be a good idea for his rosh yeshiva should take a long walk on a short pier o ,biloshon sugye noar,to clear his addelled brain.

Anonymous said...

for those that in the future claim ignorance for all the hate the speak of chabad you are officially being notified "ignorance will not be an excuse" lesid all those that hid behind these blogs and spewed hatred will be exposed and they will have no excuses to where to hide...

Anonymous said...

Arthur, very well said. They have hearts of cold stone, it's hard for the lvoe of G-d to shine into such places, they refused to accept The Rebbe's love because they don't believe in Ahava part of Yiddishkeit, its they who have left the fold, it's them who have forsaken their brothers. When these people decide to release their Kol Koreh Ban the world grip on today's generation maybe WE will accept THEM back into the fold.

The sad truth is that it really doesn't matter, because after they are merachok all of their kids with these bans and foolish "daas torah", it's Chabad Shluchim who will be mekarav them back.

snag said...

Arthur, honestly, could you please tell us how many Satmarers were there ? Two? Three ? How many Gerrer, Vizhnitzer, Bobover, Belzer....?

Okay, maybe some individual Chagasniks here and there, but were there masses of Chagasniks there ? How many buses from KJ and W'burg, how many from Skver, Monsey, BP....? If not, why not ? Did they all become snags ?

Arthur said...

"it is also the day that the shabsai tzvi of the 20th century was finaly silenced B'H. its sad how many yidden are brainwashed into that cult."
I don't know whether going to the mikvah or any other type of teshuva can make make up for the kind of filth you have crawled under to come up with such gutter language you use to describe the Rebbe.What I do know is that the Rebbe in his great Ahavas Yisroel would have forgiven you but I and tens of thousands of others from all backrounds,cannot.I haven't seen such hate since the Protocols Of The Elders OF Zion or Mein Kampf or the Shturmer were published.An och un vei tzu dir.

Anonymous said...

How sad. take foe example this poor yid arthur (7:15 pm), so sadly brainwashed. All he can talk about is his fluttery yummy feelings, all the emotion, yet not one bit of logic. Its always "so much sinas chinam" or "lashon hora". Why do the always sidestep the issues? I have yet to hear a lubejob actualy put the feelings aside, and try to think out of the lubavitch "What to say to a non believer" handbook. Now that would be asking the impossible. I guess its like asking a robot to try and think logicly.

Yes Chabad is a clssic case of how something can at one time be so beutiful and then fall so far.

Nebach.

Anonymous said...

The depression in this picture hits in the face. Why doesn't anyone talk about the rebbe losing it after his wife was niftar? I've heard about it from many zikney chabad, and suddenly it's ignored like it never happened.

Arthur said...

"Arthur, honestly, could you please tell us how many Satmarers were there ? Two? Three ? How many Gerrer, Vizhnitzer, Bobover, Belzer....?"Are you projecting your dishonesty onto me? I cannot change the fact that you doubt my honesty and I didn't do a head count but there were hundreds if not thousands of shtreimlach and bekeshes from all chasideshe kreizen as well as modern Orthodox and every thing between beyond.If that bothers you tough noogies.Thats your twisted problem.If Moshiach doesn't make it by Daled Tammuz of next year C"V,don't take my word. Come down yourself and check it out.Are you afraid to do so because you will find the truth staring you in the face?

Arthur said...

"I have yet to hear a lubejob actualy put the feelings aside, and try to think out of the lubavitch "What to say to a non believer" handbook. Now that would be asking the impossible. I guess its like asking a robot to try and think logicly."
Now here is a logical (learn how to spell or use spell check since you are such a LOGICLY talented person) and typically unintellectual answer that the haters regurgitate.
They tell a story that there was an asife in the Litte of old of some Litveshe rabbonim.After much argument and indecisiveness they finally came out the great pronouncement that"Rubbe derubbe firt der Eibershter de velt".Or maybe you heard the one that if you were to open the heart of a Litvak you would find a tzeilim.
You haters are to dumb to use your intellect so there's no sense in further discussion or any discussion for that matter.Why do I bother.

Josh said...

I think that just as I respect your love of the Rebbe and his Torah, and realize he was a great Talmid Chacham and Eved Hashem, you should respect my desire not to want or need his "kesher" or "love." It is really presumptuous to think that everyone "needs" the Rebbe. The Rebbe did not have all the answers in his own community, certainly not for kelal yisrael and the world. He has a certain mehalech that was useful for him and many people and is also not useful for many, many people who respect that mehalech but do not need to be proselytized, accepted, loved or made better Jews by the dead Rebbe. The real sinat hinam that I see are those who live in their own dreamlands, whether they be Misnagdim or Lubavitchers, and do not realize that there is plenty to see outside of the bubble.

Anonymous said...

Does the fact that so many legit. gedolim people with tremendous yiras shamyim people who were tremendous talmidei chachamim and held the rebbe was pasul does that not bother you at all? i know if there were many gedolim who held r shach was a posul it would bother me.

Hirshel Tzig said...

absolutely not.

Here's where I subscribe to the notion that Tzaddikim make mistakes....

Besides, it was all based on lies and agendas. KeYodua.

snag said...

"Besides, it was all based on lies and agendas. KeYodua."

That is the Lubavitch approach when they encounter opposition of gedaylei Yisroel, gedaylei eylom, that they cannot easily mach avek. That's what they claim re קו"ק הגר"א זי"ע and that's what they claim re מורנו הרב שך זצוקללה"ה.

However, לא זו הדרך, just because it's hard to deal with such opposition, doesn't give you the right to claim that it was all a mistake. Be honest and admit that others reject your derech, without trying to make pshetlech and kuntzen claiming that it was all a big mistake and misunderstanding.

Sruly said...

Tzig
From following your blog it seems that you hardly knew the Rebbe while he was active i.e prior to the first stroke 16 1/2 years ago so it's pretty cheesy when you join the 'how much I miss The Rebbe' crowd.When you joined Lubavitch the Rebbe was no longer accesible for yechidus and you may have even officialy joined after the Rebbe took ill.
Please spare us the make believe emotions .

Isaac Balbin said...

I don't give a tinker's cuss what your derech is or who you follow, but people, if you can't say anything nice on the day of someone's petirah, have some kovod habriyos let alone kovod hatorah and shut up.

Anonymous said...

>>Last night I went to the Ohel and stood on line for over three hours, till I was given exactly two minutes to read my Pan due to the to the tens of thousands of people of all branches of Yiddishkeit

I take issue with some of your comments. For example: All branches? I thought you wrote that litvishe tzadikim were not there. Similarly, I doubt there was a single Satmar or Bobover Chussid there, either. . .


>>that were there to pay their respects and be mispallel at the kever of the greatest Tzadik of our time.I repeat the greatest Tzadik of our time not withstanding your hate.

Hate has nothing to do with recoiling when one imposes his subjective opinions on other Jews. Yours is a purely subjective judgment, and many people greater than you disagreed--in some cases very disrespectfully. The fact that this is what you choose to emphasize suggests mountains about you and your agenda.

The oddest thing about your posts is that you equate the non acceptance of the Rebbe being the greatest tzadik of his time with hate. Aside from the fact that this is an extremely dishonest argument, the fact remains that you have written some pretty hateful remarks yourself about an entire population of Jews. Natrally, this is acceptable in your eyes because the Rebbe, in your opinion, was the greatest tzadik who ever lived, etc.
But, then again, he we see the another problem with imposing your beliefs on others.

I think the Tzig said it perfectly.

>>Here's where I subscribe to the notion that Tzaddikim make mistakes...

People don't hate the Rebbe, they believe he made mistakes. Very significant mistakes.

>>Besides, it was all based on lies and agendas. KeYodua.

The only thing which is Yedua is how Chabad has painted lies about others to pretend that this is a political issue instead of a Halachic/Hashkafic issue. The Rebbe made the mistake of going balistic on those who disagreed with him, too by suggesting reservations to be purely political in nature. You could choose to ignore the impulse to do this. Or you can follow your rebbe. But know what hate means and avoid it yourself, Arthur, because, frankly, no one here comes close to the lunacy you demonstrated.

CHNYOCK said...

I am a chossid of the rebbe rashab. the origional dor hashviyi in lubavitch...

p.s. I put my name to all my comments

Smile said...

This is the first time I have read some of this blog and cannot believe what I am reading. Don't let hatred eat you up.

The Bray of Fundie said...

We have such a good thing, we have a Rebbe, and we'd like to tell all our friends about it so that they too can have it.

I understand the sentiment. I really do. But how do you feel about those Jews who say "Thanks. But I/we already have one of our own!"

What rankles many non-Chabad yet l'ays-attah-YUH-shomrei-Torah u'Mitzvos-bepayel-mamush is the karma that many Lubavitcher Chasidim give-off that "You are inadequate, and will remain so forever unless you become one of us."

IMO in it's own passive-aggresive way this is just as intolerant as the most dismissive, violent, vituperative intolerance one finds in Satmar, Reb Ahreleh or Brisk.

Was this the Rebbe's zy"a conviction, or only that of the Chasidim?

Somehow I find it hard to believe tha so great a man would begrudge other Yidden, who may have had different shorshei neshama, there own Rebbes, mesorahs and paths in T.A.G.C.

PS Why has no one commented on my guest post below? Does someone have to attack and individual or an eidah to get a response??? *ARGHH*

Anonymous said...

What a great way to start Chodesh Tammuz and Av, with Elul and Tishrei to follow. How so sad,that it's sickening.
And this applies to ALL camps!
Everyone - Kranke mentchen! Enough with sinas chinum l'SHAME' shomayim.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Good idea. Leave this post and start commenting on my post below. Gaurunteed not to cause kinah-sinah among diverse camps of Jews.

Avrumik said...

Tzigele Shlit"a.

As the owner and moderator of this blog, you should NOT have allowed the first comment.

Long Beach Chasid said...

To quote R' Manis Friedman, "Zei hobben genumen a groiseh Rebbe, un fun em gemacht a kleiner Moshiach - They took a great Rebbe and turned him into an insignificant Moshiach"

Yoni said...

Arthur
You are not being very truthful when you write about thousands of shtreimels at the Ohel .I was there.There was a sprinkle of other non Lubavitch chasidim and more Sephardi types, the overwhelming majority were card carrying Lubavitchers.
It could also be that non Lubavitchers did not want to wait for so long in a line.From my experience at the Ohel during the year it is a similar story, sprinkle of other non Chabadniks, quite a few tarditional Sefardy and mostly Lubav, one time I even met a Lakewood Litvish boy.
The Rebbes hashpoes have not been felt very strongly in the Chareidi world, but very succesful in the general Jewish community

Shimon said...

Meanwhile back at the ranch.....
The plot with Agri/Rubashkin becomes murkier every.Not a day passes without some kind of news item.Now its some drei with Alou.
Whatever.
You lubab are still busy defending them.It's nothing to do with the truth and all about them being Lubab.
Brings to mind the Lubab saying 'Unzereh ziburis iz beser vee zeyer idis'.
Nu,nu

schneur said...

A yahrzeit is usually a time for a Cheshbon hanefesh.
I have to say that one of my greatest criticisms of contemporary Chabad is in the midst of the shturem and trask, and constant "action" there is no time for a cheshbon hanefesh - introspection -hisbonnenus.Very ironic for a movement whose essence is Hisbonnenus introspection .
A moment to forget about PR about positions, but to meditate on where Chabad "halt" in the long course of Jewish history and Chabad history.How tragic that for the 1st time in close to 200 years there is no Schneersohn family member leading his flock. There is no Lubavitcher rebbe ! OY Thats the real OY ! That there is no Dach ! that there is no Etza veToshiah from a
living rebbe! Oy .
For this day its appropriate to read Bes Rebbe and see 'vu men halt" without posturing, without apologetics, without power plays etc.

Daniel said...

Tzig
I'm not Lubavitch and have never been inside the Ohel(though I've been to Montefiore).I understand you spent shabbos there, I would love to read a post about it.How many people, how so many people manage with sleeping etc .What do people do on such a shabbos regarding preperations for the yohrtzait etc..
Sorry if my post is inelegant but you get the drift, there are people who would like to read such a report.

Hirshel Tzig said...

coming soon, iy"H.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
In all the Chabad outlets as Kfar chabad, Shturem etc.. there is discussion on a daily basis of the Matzav Hachabadi if you haven't seen them don't come and preach.The Chabad PR is a tenth of Rashbi or Uman, In all the years on Lag Beomer I haven't seen not even 1 outlet discussing that tens of thousand of Jews are flocking to Miron but no emphasis on Penimios Hatorah, but on some pipe dream of Chai Rotel, The Boyaner Rebbe owns the Lighting of the bonfire did you ever question him what mechuten he is with Rashbi? Your professional Chabad hatred appalls me. if God forbid Chabad would choose a scoundrel like the Bobover rebbes or Satmar Rebbes you would be the 1st to scream from the roof tops Hazoes Chabad?look in Beis Rebbe and you will see the true Chabad,you are a hypocrite bar none

Long Beach Chasid said...

You say that hatred of Chassidic group A is "appalling" but then call the Rebbes of Chassidic group B & C scoundrels? How does your logic work?

Ive only read limited posts of Circus Tent but I can gather 3 things from it.

Jews are filled with much hate and this is why moshiach isnt here.

They do it anonymously because they would never have the chutzpa to say what they say with a online identity attached let alone in person

Everyone acts like their opinion is second to none and they know EVERYTHING about ANYTHING but in reality someone that knows even a shred of everything about anything would be humble and most certainly not using the internet or posting on Jewish Blogs.

May G-d take away our pride and hate that equal almost to Pharaoh towards the Jews. And have mercy on all our souls.

Chaim Dov said...

Anonymous 8:30,
Some chutzpa you have attacking a long contributing poster such as Shneour in such a way!
He is one of the more knowledgable and objective posters here.
It figures to, the names you call other rabbonim while decrying 'hate' of Chabad.To top it all you call him a hypocrite! Man, that's exactly what you are!!!

schneur said...

Anonymous.
Why is it that more often than not gents like yourself who seemingly belong to contemporary Chabad MUST explode in name calling even in instances when nothing negative beyond a friendly suggestion for further discussion is noted.Any suggestion or intimation of criticism of your organization is greeted with name calling. Why not a serious discussion of the issues ?
It seesm that when it comes to other institutions like Telz, Chaim Berlin etc you and some compatriots are more than happy to spend time and discuss the issues.
Is this the REAL face of the Ahvath Israel that marks contemporary Lubavitch ?
I do read KFAR CHABAD magazine and most of it (if not the whole magazine) is just self serving propoganda , with rarely an article exploring some internal issue.
About Bais Mashiach well there we have a status quo until "the end of time" Whats to discuss ?
But I did learn something that it is a rachmanus on Chabad after 3 Tammuz we all knew, I am now beginning to feel its also a rachmanus on the great niftar leaving such well spoken followers.
I also find it interesting psychologically your open insults against the Bobover, Satmarer rebbes, the Boyaner rebbe, the Pilgrimage to Miron etc.
I guess I understand...

schneur said...

The Boyaner rebbe inherited the chazokah for the Hillula from his grandfathers of Boyan including his grandfather in New York. who yarshened it from the Rizhiner who bought it during his lefetime.
The Boyaner's major mistake in judgement is not giving over the Chazoka to the local Chabad rav.

Minkatcher Ainikle said...

Interested in the Tolner Rebbe's 35 min Speech in Ivris given in honor of the Yom Hilulah 3 Tammuz 5768? I can email.

Hirshel Tzig said...

sure!!!

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Not the Chabad Rov because the world will come to an end for too much Chabad power, but at least Reb Yakov Moshe Hilel or Reb Itche Meir Morgenstern they are big Mechutuni with Rashbi

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Did you read the interview of Rav Shochet from LA Yeshiva in Kfar Chabad 3 weeks ago?
Did you read the interview of Rav Kramer from Montreal Yeshiva several weeks ago? or Rav Katz from Kfar Chabad yeshiva, they were all criticizing the yeshiva system, do they have to come out on a daily basis to throw food to satisfy the chabad haters?

The Bray of Fundie said...

Funny how not a single person has responded to my last comment

the tzig:potz shdebru boi chazal said...

Tzig pay tzady,
You removed my post about Agri/Rubashkin thinking that see no evil will somehow help.Sorry potz, ess arbet nisht azoi.Rubashin are in the news all the time and not facing the issue will get you petz to the same place you Lubab shoitem got by not facing the Rebbes passing.Now you have him either 'shlita' or suspended in not shlita not zatsal.Think saying things makes them not so?
Oy, aza potz shdebru boi chazal beestu!

Go on, continue about haters..............

Hirshel Tzig said...

Mr. "Shdebru" forgot his ritalin today.

tzig the potz said...

Just an example of the 'depth' of Lubavitch in a post on COL about Rabbi Groner from Melbourne:''They don't make them like him anymore. How many Head Shluchim personally appointed by the Rebbe are so dynamic, charismatic, a Talmid Chochom and caring for EVERY member of Anash''

'CARED FOR EVERY MEMBER OF ANSHE SHLOIMEINU'!??
I was taught that the bird 'chasidoh' was treif because it cares only for anash!
Guess that's another reason why Lubavitch is tomei umetameh with its so called 'Temmimim'

(I have no doubt that you won't even get my point.See that's the reason you are in Lubavitch because you have no critical abilities)

Hirshel Tzig said...

Doctor, we have a doozie on our hands. make his a double dose, please.

Anonymous said...

If saying true things makes me marked as a Ritalin user, what do you call a guy like Marlow, who called the deceased Rebbe alive??
Mushrooms?Psychdelic drugs?What does it say about the rest of you Lubabs,eh?
See, I said you are a potz and you proved it again

Hirshel Tzig said...

you're not a Ritalin user, that's why you're as erratic as you are. Had you been one the situation might have been contained. Please, for the sake of all of us, have yourself checked out.

Invoking Rabbi Marlow's name into this discussion only strengthens my point.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Please have your calender updated, your having chabad rachmones started I think 2 years before the famous Didon Notzach Hey Teves, when your dear friend Rav Sholom Ber Gurarie OBM lost his case against his uncle in court, its my assumption that the Bais Rebbe would like that the library should be broken off for collectors.

Arthur said...

Tzig,
I second the individual that said the first post should have been deleted.It set a record for how low certain haters can go.I can understand legitimate, constructive criticism of Lubavitch.We have faults just like any other group and we we deserve some of the incoming we get.
Again I respectfully suggest that the nivel peh posts should be deleted.There are other blogs out there that accept such garbage.

Anonymous said...

as a confirmed litvak i deeply resent the suggestion that we (as a group) are incapable of 'understanding' the Rebbe Zatzal.
what I found most fascinating was that the Rebbe (contra his chassidim!) was as interested and respectful of the the non Chabad world as he was of his own!
I believe that in recorded history no Torah giant has had to suffer such a group of close minded midgets as his chassidim!
Of course the old-timers such as Rabbi Groner Z"l etc are exceptins to this phenomenon

Friendly anonymous said...

To Anon 7/9/08 at 7:29 a.m.:

A Rebbe is only as great as his chasidim. See the commentaries on the Posuk "Lech Reid ki shicheis amcho". In fact, the only kesher I have to Lubavitch is because of some of his special chasidim, not because of any relationship I had with him personally.

Arthur said...

To anonymous
Monday, July 07, 2008 10:06:00 AM
It's your prerogative to believe or not believe how many Satmar or Bobever or other Chassidim that I saw and was surrounded by when I stood on line at the Rebbi's Ohel Motzoai Shabbos.I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
Otherwise ,apparently you can't read to well, so I will repeat.I said that there were all kinds of people there Chassideshe,MO,Sefardeshe,secular and everybody in between with one glaring exception.PEOPLE (not Tzadikim)from the Litveshe Yeshiveshe world.
You ask how come I refer to the Rebbi ZY"A as the Gadol Hador and try to push this onto others?Because I believe so.Just as you and other believe that Rav Shach was the Gadol Hador and try to push this idea on me and on to others, even though we believe that to be far from the truth.

Long Beach Chasid said...

Who are any of you to decide who the Gadol Hador was Im just curious what qualifies you to make such a statement.

Isn't it the job of the Rabbi's to decide not the Chassidim of Rebbes?

This blog is void of humbleness which is a mandatory trait of a Chasid.

Arthur said...

"Who are any of you to decide who the Gadol Hador was Im just curious what qualifies you to make such a statement.

Isn't it the job of the Rabbi's to decide not the Chassidim of Rebbes?"
I disagree with you totally.I am entitled to believe that my Rebbi is the Godol Hador and I don't think one needs a Dr's degree on gedolim to be qualified to do so.If you don't agree that's your right .Just as the Litvishe Yeshiveshe crowd have the right to believe that Rav Shach was the Godol Hador,Or the YU crowd believe that the Rov ZT'L (R'YBS)was or the Satmar that that Reb Yoilish ZT"L was etc etc etc.

Long Beach Chasid said...

You dont need a PHD in Gedolim?! What have I been wasting my time all these years for...

You obviously missed the point but then supported it perfectly.

Your "opinion" is just that. Its yours and it only weighs 1 shekel. you are no more and no less than myself or anyone else but still just 1.

The last Gadol Hador died during WWII and there will never be another Gadol Hador until Moshiach comes.

Judaism is so fractured by hate and pride that we are unable to unite without a miracle.

A chasid thinking his Rebbe is Gadol Hador? OF COURSE! and if you dont think that then he shouldnt be your Rebbe!!

He is Gadol Hador when someone who ISNT their chasid thinks so.

Rebbe's dont visit other Rebbe's for advice anymore.

The unity died in the holocaust.

The chasidic stories of Rebbes of long ago getting together doesnt happen anymore.

Because you are Lubavitch. Your Rebbe is the Gadol Hador and the Only true path is through Chabad Torah.

Replace Lubavitch with any group and there you have it.

Moshaich on his way amen!

I have nothing left to say, this whole post is pathetic and disgusting. You people would never say these things in person but you use the computer as a shield to spout hate safely. Well rest assured man cant reach you but HASHEM CAN!!!

Anonymous said...

Long beach chosid
You are naive if you believe that fractured Judaism started after WW11, Are you a BT or a Ger? ask your grandpa if he is still around

Anonymous said...

>>You ask how come I refer to the Rebbi ZY"A as the Gadol Hador and try to push this onto others?Because I believe so.Just as you and other believe that Rav Shach was the Gadol Hador and try to push this idea on me and on to others, even though we believe that to be far from the truth.

No one ever pushed Rav Shach as the gadol hador on Lubab, btw. And the only justification you really have for your comments and irrationality is hate.

Arthur said...

To Long beach Chosid
"He is Gadol Hador when someone who ISNT their chasid thinks so." First of all what do you mean by "Long Beach Chosid"?Does it mean that you're a Chosid of the geographical place called Long Beach?If so Iz ah an och un vei to your Chasidus.If not, whose Chosid Are you? Are you a chosid of your self? If yes iz noch an och in vei.
I really don't know what ticked you off about my posts.I don't remember making any derogatory statements about any gedolim. At least not on this chain of posts.
There is a long list of famous,great and poshite Yidden who are not Lubavitcher Chassidim and yet believe the Rebbi was the Godol Hador.I even know Goyim that think so.I was in a Taxi the other day and the driver ,who was Afro American, had a picture of the Rebbi on the dashboard.I asked him what his story was and he told me that he had personally received a dollar from the Rebbi and a blessing and from that point his life changed for the better.I think you are what we call in yiddish "Heis gebuden".Chill out.

Arthur said...

"No one ever pushed Rav Shach as the gadol hador on Lubab, btw. And the only justification you really have for your comments and irrationality is hate."
What planet do you live on? Have read all the posts here and on other blog sites that push the idea that Rav Shach is or was the Godol Hador?
I really am puzzled about your assertion that my comments are irrational and full of hate.I didn't diparage Rav Shach or any one else.The fact remains that most people believe that their Rebbi os Rosh Hayishive is the Godol Hador and every one else should believe so to.
If any one is spouting hate it's you.

Anonymous said...

Hey Anonymous, He was talking about the fractured disdain between Chassidim. You dont have to be Frum From Birth to be able to read history books on Judaism. Now get off your high horse and get back to your Gemara before your Rosh Yeshiva finds out that you are wasting your time on this stupid blog.

chanina said...

Long Beach Chosid,
I love your passion and you seem to be a truth seeker so stay around, please because there seem to be a dearth of non partisan seekers here.
One minor detail:You say that if you are a chosid of a Rebbe you must believe he is the Godol Hador.Why?Can't you respect and follow someone who is not The Godol Hador?
Am Yisroel in the midbor had
'sorei alofim' 'sorei meos' etc.
AND Moshe Rabbeinu.
This idea that your rebbe has to be the greatest man is so strange to me.Any comments?

Long Beach Chasid said...

If you follow a Rebbe in my opinion (and its a crazy concept but there are other opinions out there!) its not fact its my opinion. In my opinion a Rebbe is someone who you consider a tzaddik who connects to heaven. We arent talking about your Rav or your Mashpia. We are talking about someone who you feel connects so close to Hashem and all you want to do is feel that closeness. If you dont think he is the greatest Yid around and someone else surpasses him then why arent you following his way?

Chabad only follows Chabad Chassidus and decendents of the Alter Rebbe and felt there was no one worthy of replacing the 7th Rebbe.

Why is it that other groups when their Rebbe dies they gravitate towards other Rebbes? Like Ger and Alexander for perfect example.

To argue whose Rebbe is better is so childish. "My Rebbe can beat up your Rebbe" Of course you think hes the best Rebbe why would you follow your 2nd favorite Rebbe?

As for Arther who is so desperate to put me in my place that he mocks my blogging name. There is no Long Beacher Rebbe or Long Beacher Chassidus. Im just a yid stuck in galus.

My Rav's Rebbe is Chaskel Besser of Radomsk who lives in nyc. I dont need to give you my life story to justify what I say.

You cant respond to my facts so you try to kick me down a peg.

65th post and there is not one shred of Ahavas Yisroel in this whole entire post.

Everyone is right, they have the holiest Rebbe.

If everyone is so frum what are you doing on the internet on a blog arguing when there is Gemara getting dusty on your bookshelves.

I have an excuse. Im just a Baal Teshuva. I dont know whats really going on. I cant wait to get away from this internet for awhile and go learn in Israel.

This is all just so silly and Im to blame as well for even posting in the first place.

Hirshel Tzig said...

LBC

I'm not sure Chazkel Besser ZGZ has "Talmidim", so that would your Talmidshaft in jeopardy...

At least you can take solace that Reb Chatzkel is one of my heros as well.

Long Beach Chasid said...

So you are calling me a liar but giving me the solace that you respect him as well?

Wikipedia isnt the best source for fact claiming but you can read yourslef

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaskel_Besser

My Rav is Rabbi Yonah Bookstein.

You dont have to believe me, either way I know the truth.

Hirshel Tzig said...

no, not calling you a liar, though I will call you overly sensitive...

Good for Rabbi Bookstein, but unless he attended Reb Chatzkel's Daf Yomi shiur on the West Side he can't be a "Talmid."

Long Beach Chasid said...

So to be a student of a Rabbi you have to always learn from them even when they move away? They cease to be the students of this Rabbi? Right. Well he was learning with R' Besser while he lived in Monsey but he moved to Long Beach to do kiruv here.

I didnt realize you just had to sit in on a shuir to automatically become a studuent of someone. Especially Daf Yomi. I know people that have been learing Daf Yomi for years and still cant learn Gemara on their own.

Im not overly sensitive I just have respect for what people say unless i can find a fact that it is wrong even if I dont agree which what they are saying.

Once again opinions replace fact.

I dont think I want to help this post get to 70 so say your peace.

Arthur said...

To Long Beach Chosid

"If you follow a Rebbe in my opinion (and its a crazy concept but there are other opinions out there!) its not fact its my opinion. In my opinion a Rebbe is someone who you consider a tzaddik who connects to heaven".
You know you are contradicting your self.On the above post you state what your opinion is,and yet on another post you deny that same privilege to me and others by saying that you state fact and not opinion.I don't disagree with your above "opinion".Your one hundred percent right but be consistent.
I fail to see what point your trying to make with all your posts.Maybe I'm thick headed and somewhat confused.You advise everyone to get of the blogs,stop wasting their time and learn a blatt Gemorah.Perhaps you should take your own advise.

Michoel said...

Arthur said, "I didn't diparage Rav Shach or any one else."

I assume you are the same Arthur who wrote a little while ago that Rav Shach was against Chabad because his shiur got upshlugged by a bachur in a Chabad yeshiva when Rav Shach went to give a trial shiur (to get a shtellar)? You said other things that were just as bad but Baruch Hashem I don't remember them clearly.

I think we have different definitions of "disparage".

Arthur said...

"I assume you are the same Arthur who wrote a little while ago that Rav Shach was against Chabad"
Your assumption is correct.I am the culprit and still stand by my original premise.However, I said clearly that I did not attack Rav Shach on THIS chain of posts ,in reply to something that Long Beach Chosid wrote to me.He was unaware of what I had written previously.

Anonymous said...

You did not qualify when you said motzi shem ra on Rav Shach. And given the fact that your story is a complete fabrication, its impossible to take you seriously at all. If you would take the time to read through the filth you wrote on this post alone, you will acknowledge how disrespectful you are to everyone. Its amazing how your hate has changed your sense of reality.

The comment you made about Rav Shach applying for a shtellar in Chabad is a known lie perpetrated by haters of Rav Shach like yourself. He never applied to Chabad. He was in Petach Tikva and did very well there. The Chabad yeshivos are not even that prestigious. But you are probably too unlettered to even know that. Then the Ponovesher Rav grabbed him.

His Avi Ezri is a classic and his scholarship was praised in the highest of terms by the Brisker Rav and Rav Isser Zalman in their haskomos to his seforim. His seforim encokmpass the entire shas, in great depth and originality. To even suggest what you are stating implies such katnus and hate on your side that it is clear you have no common sense on this issue. I know your knee jerk reaction is to suggest I never even opened his seforim, but, hey, you are a dishonest creep. So who cares what you think.

I learned by Rav Yitzchok Reitport, shlit"a, a Lubavitcher himself, and a great, great gaon. He told me that the Rebbe was an astounding gaon who literally knew everything. However, he did not believe the Rebbe was the greatest okar horim. (In fact he suggested that, analytically speaking, he is bigger!) The greatest Roshei Yeshiva of the last generation were in awe of Rav Shach's brilliance and knowledge--from the most critical talmidei chachomim like Rav Paler and Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro, to the most outspoken critics where they felts someone did not know what he was talking about--like R' Shmuel Berenbaum. They all respected his learning to the highest degree. To suggest what you are lying--that a bachur in a yeshiva (espccially in Chabad, where there are only into the thrilling aspects of learning) upshlugged arguably the greatest talmid chochom among litvishe giants is a joke and demonstrates that you clearly do not deserve to be treated with any credulity in debate. {The original bubba maaseh was that Rav Shach said Rashi was wrong, btw, maybe you should stick with that}.

Michoel said...

OH! Now I get it. Thank you for clarifying.

So just to be extra clear: A 69-year old man that only learned in Chabad Yeshivos unashamedly writes that Rav Shach was not so great (something about him being "promoted" to gadol status, and implicitly saying that the Brisker Rav was just talking bubamaases in all his praise of Rav Shach) and that Rav Shach had personal taanes against Chabad because he didn't like getting upshlugged.

I am no Chabadster but I actually believe that your average Lubavitcher is on a much bigger madreiga then you are.

No-one should worry that Arthur is being m'chalel the shem tov of Chabad in my eyes. I know the Rebbe had a lot of chasidim that really believe that one is not, lo aleinu (including Arthur), zoche to t'chiyas hameisim for being m'vazeh a talmid chacham.

Arthur said...

Wow such anger.I definitely won't be able to sleep tonight.
I think,no,I know you guys are a bunch of hypocrites.Look at the first post on this blog.This is what guys like you say about the Rebbi at the drop of a hat both here and on other blogs and you dare to call me a hypocrite and dishonest? The nivel peh that people like you use to write against the Rebbi makes me look like the greatest admirer of Rav Shach.
I stick with what I mentioned on a previous post on this chain.I did not say one bad word about about Rav shach here.Check it out yourselves.From the piece of dreck that was the first poster till now.I suggest that you both take showers to cool of.

Michoel said...

I have NO ANGER and I have NEVER written anything about the Rebbe.

Perhaps you are projecting.

Arthur said...

If you guys are so self rightous about being mevaze a talmid chochom how come you didn't write a mochoh against the menuvel who wrote the first post on this series? Shtike kehodoah domi.Apparently it's only a crime when I write something against Rav Shach.

Michoel said...

Actually, the first post on the thread doesn't really address the Rebbe. It addresses Lubavitchers who believe that the Rebbe is still alive. And yes, I agree that his point is unnecessary and obnoxious.

It is not "only" a crime when you are m'vazeh Rav Shach, but it is crime when you are m'vazeh Rav Shach. And I am anxiously awaiting your owning up to it.

Get it?

Arthur said...

To Michoel,
Yes,you bet I am angry.I am angry at a man who supposedly was a great Talmid Chochom and yet was mevaze my Rebbi(even UOJ admits he was A gaon Utzum,imagine that),I am angry at a man who made leitzonus of my Rebbis Mivtzoim,I am angry at a man who ridiculed putting Tefillen on so called "richokim".I am angry at a man who laughed at the idea of having a Lag Beomer parade,that the Rebbi asked for, so Shema could be said with thousands of Yiddeshe kinderlach who never had said before.Why? Because it was "bittul Torah".I am angry at a man who dismissed the Rebbi's Shluchim, some of whom have more mesiras nefish in one day then he had in an entire life time and this is only the tip of the iceberg.Don't take my word for it. It's all documented and wasn't a hidden agenda.Don't tell me the Rebbi started it because in your heart of hearts you know it's true.Yes I am definitely angry you can bet your bottom dollar that I own up to it.

duvy said...

Michoel,
Please don't give these Lubavitcher haters ammunition against bnei torah(BY NOT BEING AIDEL ENOUGH), though I know it's hard to hold back when they demand highest respect for their own while denigrating others.
Legufoi shel inyon:The mayseh with Rav Shach having been thought of as a candidate for a shtelleh in the Lubavitcher yeshiva in Lod probably has some truth to it since I've heard it from a couple of sources.The way I heard it btw was from a relative of mine who studied in Ponovizh at the time, this must be around tov shin yud daled and vayter.The way I heard it was that a couple of Lubavitcher boys came to 'red in lernen' with Harav Shach in Ponovizh, bear in mind that this would not be unusual at all since Ponovizh had Lubavitcher boys such as Rav Landaus sons R'Akselrod and quite a few others.Anyway the schmooze in lernen with him and on one kashe they had Rav Shach said 'ich vais nit'.This is where the different viewpoint of emmes and pilulim shelo al derech hoemes split up:It was well known and happened as number of times that a good talmid asked a question in the middle of a shiur kloli and when Rav Shach felt he had not emmeseh terutz would close the gemora and end the shiur!!Sometimes he would come back hours later with a terutz and sometimes not.This was his middas hoemes.Sure he could 'fop' and schmmer some kind of terutz but that would not be emmes.To the Lubavither boys, used to having a terutz on everything even if not 100% emmes this was a sign of amaratsus.Sorry, Lubavitchers, what made me so appreciate Rav Shach was his ability to say 'eini yode'ah' that is true humility.
Btw, in his sefer Avi Ezri he brought toirehs from young talmidim in their name!One example was the recently deceased Yisrael Segal who is quoted in the sefer as a young bochur in Ponovizh

Anonymous said...

Arthur,
You losing it again?
What is this and how do you know it?

''I am angry at a man who dismissed the Rebbi's Shluchim, some of whom have more mesiras nefish in one day then he had in an entire life time''

Rav Shach had less mesirus nefesh in his whole like than some shluchim in one day??

Stop now because you are starting to sound like a scary old fool

Anonymous said...

Arthur
Your wife was right btw.Spend more time with her and less here.All it does is make you angry and than you say things you later regret.

Arthur said...

To Michoel
"Actually, the first post on the thread doesn't really address the Rebbe. It addresses Lubavitchers who believe that the Rebbe is still alive. And yes, I agree that his point is unnecessary and obnoxious."

"it is also the day that the shabsai tzvi of the 20th century was finaly silenced B'H."
Only "obnoxious,doesn't address the Rebbi".Are you out of your cotton picking mind?
Yes I "get it" I can where your sympathies lie.

Michoel said...

Duvy,
Me'ah Achuz. As I said when Arthur first started with this, that I have no trouble believing that there is some truth to the maaseh, that a good bochur asked a kashe that Rav Shach didn't have an answer for. It happens all the time to different roshei yeshiva and I'm sure it happens to Lubavitch Roshei Yeshiva also.

Arthur, I don't know everything that Rav Shach said that you are saying he did. I do know that he was extremely against the meshichists. But so are other chabadsters. So to borrow your "shtikah k'hoda", go yell at them. Rav Shach is an easy target for you.

About Lag Baomer parades etc, could be that if you would have had the opportunity to speak to him in person, you would have seen his side as well, or maybe you would have seen that the way you heard his shitah given over wasn't exactly accurate.

Truth is, I can empathize with your pain and it is said that we have machlokes amongst yidden. Still, Rav Shach was a very great Jew, and for your own benefit, you stop playing with fire. It is not your place.

Anonymous said...

Arthut,
Let's just ask a question:Was the Rebbe the long waited Moshiach?
Apparently not.The analogy to S.Z. obnoxious as it is can be understood.
The difference obviously is that the Rebbe meant well, but was unfortunately mistaken

Michoel said...

My sympathies lie with Rav Shach. I am a Litvak, a talmid of a close talmid his. So what? I am therefore not entitled to an opinion? I love all yidden including Lubavitchers and try to learn from all drachim.

Arthur said...

I don't claim to be a boki in all the Rebbis Sichos and michtovim but I did go to almost every farbregen of the Rebbi even before he became Rebbi even though I was a youngster at the time .Contrary to what most of you believe the Rebbi never claimed to be Moshiach both in writing or farbrengin.I know I will get the usual chorus who will say otherwise even if I were to show them chapter and verse that he never claimed to be so.
The fact is that the Rebbe breathed and lived Moshiach with every atom of his body.That was his so called "Mistake".He made the word Moshiach and what it stands for, an every day experience not something we mumble about a couple of times a day without being conscious of what we are saying.If this is a mistake then the Chofetz Chaim the Yismach Moshe and many other Gedolim Litvish or Chassidesh are equally culpable of this mistake.Saying "we want Moshiach now" is also not a crime because if yes then we are all guilty of the same crime when we say "Es tzemach Dovid....." three times a day.Who are we talking about,good old st. Nick C"V?
That there are those crazies who took the Rebbi's words and twisted them around to their nefarious Meshichist fantasias does not make the Rebbi "the shabsai Tzvi of the twentieth century".

Anonymous said...

To Michoel,
Yes,you bet I am angry.I am angry at a man who supposedly was a great Talmid Chochom and yet was mevaze my Rebbi(even UOJ admits he was A gaon Utzum,imagine that),I am angry at a man who made leitzonus of my Rebbis Mivtzoim,I am angry at a man who ridiculed putting Tefillen on so called "richokim".I am angry at a man who laughed at the idea of having a Lag Beomer parade,that the Rebbi asked for, so Shema could be said with thousands of Yiddeshe kinderlach who never had said before.Why? Because it was "bittul Torah".I am angry at a man who dismissed the Rebbi's Shluchim, some of whom have more mesiras nefish in one day then he had in an entire life time and this is only the tip of the iceberg.Don't take my word for it. It's all documented and wasn't a hidden agenda.Don't tell me the Rebbi started it because in your heart of hearts you know it's true.Yes I am definitely angry you can bet your bottom dollar that I own up to it.

Rav Shach was not the only one, you nitwit. This was the consensus among nearly all charedi gedolim.

Anonymous said...

Arthur
They are all trying to forgetThe posek hador of our time Reb Moshe Fienstien gave a warm letter for the Lag Beomer parades and reb SZ Oerbach that were not obssesed misnagdim were not on the same page with the tzorier hayhedim of BB that got up in a stadium and was matir dam shell alfie yisroel shomrie torah umitzvoth
With no source what so ever
He hated every chosid, but chabad blood he felt his cheap and his henchmen will follow thru, the author of the illfamed Hagoan is acknowledging him as his mentor in his renovated war against chasidim

Arthur said...

To anonomous 6:51 PM
"Rav Shach was not the only one, you nitwit. This was the consensus among
nearly all charedi gedolim."
You want to make a point do so by all means but why the need for using the insulting terminology? Do you actually think that such usage of language adds validity to your premise?
I highly doubt that " this was the consensus among nearly all chraidi gedolim" but if true it makes the question even greater. What was the crime of the Rebbis mivtzoim?Since when is it wrong to be a firm believer in Beas Hamoshiach? If so the Kedoshim that went to their death singing Ani Maamin are equally guilty.The Kodosh while going through the throws of death and pain in the gas chamber at Dachau,yet managed to scratch out with his fingernail.on the wall of that terrible place "Im kol zeh ani mamin",is equally guilty.Every Jew who makes that same statement at the end of Davining is equally guilty.
Tell me what crime did the Rebbi commit when he called for "Bayis molei sforim,Hadlokas neiros Shabbos,Hanochas Teffilin,Mezuzah and all his other mivtzoim?
If these were crimes how come "most chreidi gedolim" now call for all of the above to be incorporated into Kiruv "rechokim"?Is it because when the Lubavitcher Rebbi hots zich gekoched in dem it's a crime but when the Chraidi "gedailim" call for their implementation it becomes legitimized?
If it be true that this was the consensus among most chreidie gedolim as you claim ,almost none of them attacked the Rebbi with the same hate and viciousness as Rav Shach.Some say this was his way of saying things.We really don't understand the meaning behind his words.He was really a loving and caring person......Yet do not give the Rebbi the same benifit of the doubt.

Michoel said...

"He hated every chosid, but chabad blood he felt his cheap..."

This comment demonstrates a profound lack of yiras shamayim.

Anonymous said...

Arthur
We first have to put down guiding posts for "charedi gedolim."
Were the Gerer Rebbes gedolim? was the Klausenburger Rebbe a godol? was the Minchas Yitzchok a Godul? and so on, I personal don't think that the Tzoirer Hayeudim from BB was able to shine the shoes of them in Pesak, Kedusha,vast knowledge in kol hatorah
Don't sell me the BS that he got great Haskomes from Reb
Isser Zalmen and Brisker Rov, they wrote nice haskomas for every talmud chochom, most great talmidim of Ponovizh are talmidim of Reb Shmuel all the shiurim today in yeshivos are based on Reb Shmuel style, until the Roter(Sharie Aron Mevakshei Torah) family started their vicous PR campaign in Yeshiva on the back of Rav Povarski and other Roshei Yeshiva in Yeshiva

Arthur said...

To Anonymous 1:30 PM
I'm not the one that is trying to sell you the BS about the the "Tzoirer Hayhudim".I agree with your above statement one hundred percent.In fact I've been receiving flack from his TLr's all along.Until you came along I seemed to have been the only one on this blog that was describing this so called "Godail Hatorah"for what he rally was.Tzig has not been any help either. He's been silent all along.Who knows? He may be a "closet" Shachnik loi aleinu.Tzig, I hope you don't take offense.We all know where your sympathy lies.

Hirshel Tzig said...

no offense take, Arthur.

Too busy to comment all the time.

Enjoy yourselves, all of you.

Michoel said...

"Enjoy yourself"

Ha. That is pretty funny. (I like Tzig BTW) But it is funny to see what Chabadsters call enjoyment.

Baruch Hashem I am free to think well of all yidden and I don't need to look at others with such blackness. I feel bad for Arthur v'chaveirav.

Anonymous said...

Michoel
Was Rav Shach the mentor of the book Hagoan? Yes or no? Maybe you know what I don't know for a factthat Eliach is a liar.

Arthur said...

Michoel,
I to think well of all Yidden including you and believe me I don't take joy in writing or even thinking the way I do about "Maran" of BB, but he attacked my Rebbi in a way that can't be forgiven.As to "chaveirai",(whom ever they may be) that you feel bad for I can't speak for them but I would assume that they feel the same way I do,and many of them are not Chabadskers but are heiser Litveshe Yeshiveshe kinds of guys who have come to recognize the man behind the mask for what he really was.He not only attacked my Rebbi but other Gedolim and Chosheve Yidden from both sides of the fence.I wish you and all "Marans"followers all the best and hope that we will all be taken out of this finstere golus bekorov mamosh in spite of him.Ah gutten un lichtiker Shabbos.

Meir Einayim said...

I can't believe the chutzpa of the pseudo-historical revisionists who insist on posting lies about R. Schach here. To anyone who's ever bothered reading his 'Michtavim u'Maamarim', his contribution is clear. R. Schach spewed hate against religious zionists, chabad, Rav Steinsaltz, R' S Goren, and anybody else not subscribing to his narrow viewpoint. His writings are simply volumes of hate and criticism. Contrast his letters with those of ANY manhig, and the difference is clear. Certainly the letters of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, full of brochos, advice, and encouragement, stand in stark contrast. For those of you choosing to reject the lubavitcher derech, fine - that is your choice. But please don't come on here posting silly lies about what R. Schach was, or the sinas-chinom that he spewed. Don't make me post excerpts of the man's hate from his own pen...
"Milsa d'avida l'iglui lo meshakri inshi"

Arthur said...

Meir einayim
Amongst those he attacked with his virulent hate and narrow mindedness was also Rav YB Soloveichick ZY"A and even though many Gedolim disagreed with RYBS on some basic issues they afforded him the greatest of respect. I'm not only talking about the Rebbe but many of the greatest Litveshe Gedolim of our time.

shuly said...

To the anonymous guy that claimed the Brisker Rov gave haskomos 'wholesale' and that the Avi Ezri haskomo was run of the mill:
You are really ignorant.The Brisker Rov, hardly gave out any haskomos at all! If I'm not mistaken he gave out maybe 5 or less.
Lubavitch have again proven their so called 'love' for every Jew, by denigratinga a Rosh Yeshiva with thousands of talmidim, a man who had multiple times the the ammount of mourners by his levaya than the Rebbe.

Arthur said...

Shuly
The pope had a lot more people at his funeral then Maran which makes him greater then Rav Shach.
What a wonderful chiddush .The new yardstick for measuring gadlus is attendance figures at a levaye.Sheer genius.
Rav Shach and his followers have again proven their so called love for every Jew by denigrating A Rebbi with tens if not hundreds of thousands of chassidim and followers throughout the world.In addition to Rav YB Soloveitchick with tens of thousands of talmidim and other countless gedolim with thousands of students.So there my Rebbi is stronger then yours.
Grow up.

Arthur said...

Shuly
How many people came to "maran" on Sundays for a Brocha and to recieve a dollar to be given to tzedaka? How long do you have to stand on line at "marans" kever on his yahrtziet to say a kapital Thillim or to be mispalel leiluy nishmosai? Take a count if you will and then come and tell me about numbers.

Arthur said...

And Shuly
Just one more question.How many people do you know of that received Smicha from the Ragechover Goan?Can you name one? I can.The Lubavitcher Rebbi ZY"O.

Arthur said...

Tzig
Please pardon my verbosity.I just can't take the petzlach that come on line and spew their nonsense.

Hirshel Tzig said...

it's quite alright, I'm just not sure it helps any...

Anonymous said...

Shuly
In one of his attacks the Tzoirer hayehidim is mad on gedolie yisroel that gave chidushie torah for a sefer hazikoron in honor of RYBS,who do you think they were? the posek and tzadik reb Moshe and rav Gifter
What a jew hater

Michoel said...

If you don't like Rav Eliach, take it up with Rav Chaim Kanievsky

binyumin said...

Calling a man respected by hundreds of thousands a man who had thousands of talmidim 'tsoirer hayehudim'?

Being that you are followers of the Lubavitcher Rebbe it does not sound good.Is that what the Rebbe would've said?
Hope not...

Arthur said...

I have great doubts as to whether Maran was "respected or is respected by hundreds of the thousands"as you claim.Those that are not yet Torah observant Jews are barely aware of his existence if at all.The MO revile him,and rightfully so,because of his attacks on RYBS.The Chassideshe oilem were not exactly his greatest admirers.Even amongst the Chareidem there is a large contingent that found him to be a narrow minded bigot.That doesn't leave many admirers.
As to the Lubavitcher Rebbi ,sure he would not have referred to him as Tzoirer Hayhudim, but he described the Rebbi and other Gedolai Yisroel with adjectives that were much worse.Even though I was not the originator of"tzoreir Hayihudim' to describe Maran,I find it very it be quite an accurate description of the man and his personality..

Michoel said...

Arthur,
Please quote specific examples. Not where Rav Shach criticized shitos but where he described individuals with adjectives that were "much worse".

B-U said...

From an objective pov:

a) Rav Shach was a regular run-of-the-mill Talmid-Chacham; nothing special. Sure, ehr hot zich geveikt in lernen, but there were and are many Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva, Kollel Yungerleit and Baalei Batim who can be described the same. Admittedly, he was known for having a quick grasp, but ultimately that doesn't add up to much.

(anyone ever hear of the "sinai v'oker harim", the "pe'er hador" etc. etc. R' Meir Todros Zilber of Yavazhna? I didn't think so).

This is how it was for the first fifty years of his life.

b) Rav Shach did not grow up with an ideology; his wife was an affirmed Zionist who was later rumored as having campaigned for the left, his son was a mechalel Shabbos etc. etc. all he knew of was his simple lifestyle with which he grew up, and nothing else.

c) Rav Shach arrived in Eretz Yisroel and was greeted by... no one. He tried seeking a job at Tomchei T'mimim of either Lod and Kfar Chabad, but in the Bachurim and the Hanhala's view, his Chiddushim/hasbara were not too impressive. The Hanhala debated whether to accept him, and the majority's opinion was negative.

Instead, he accepted a position at Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv, R' Moshe Avigdor Amiel (author of the unparalleled and brilliant "Hamidos L'cheker HaHalacha) 's Yeshivat Hayishuv Hachadash in Tel Aviv. This was a "Yeshiva Tichonit" similar to Ramaz and MTA.

The move in itself was not unusual, as this was a time of fluctuation for the Litvishe, as there were natural trends to the right and to the left, and one could get swept in either direction.

He then left and joined the Novharodoker Yeshiva in Yerushalayim, but he soon was appointed as a Ram in yet another Yeshiva Tichonit: Yeshivat Hadarom in Rechovot, in the company of luminaries such as R' Yehuda Amital, and R' Mordechai Breuer.

Hemshech yavo be"h

Arthur said...

Michoel,
You can look them up in his "Michtovim un Maimorim"
and that's only what he said in writing.What he said in public?Himmel geshrei

Arthur said...

Michoel,
I just remembered.Someone quoted them verbatim somewhere here on Circus Tent not to long ago.Look through the archives.You'll find them in all their glory.

Meir Einayim said...

Yes indeed. Here are but a few snippets of what this hatemonger had to say about true gedolim of the last generation or two...

On Rabbi Joseph Baer Soloveitchik;

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim (Bnei Brak, 5848 -5755), vol. 4 pages 36-40. [RS’s article is full] “of things that it is forbidden to hear”. See also ibid. p. 107 [in reference to RS’s work: “the book contains heresy, in the literal sense of the word. The mind is boggled by such a sight”.

It must be emphasized that Rabbi Shach was strongly apposed to communal disharmony, as he himself asserted many times. Yet, in such a situation he felt compelled to speak out in order to safeguard the Jewish heritage. For Rabbi Shach it was better to cause ruptures in the Jewish community than to allow thousands of Jewish hearts and minds to be poisoned by RS heresy.


On Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz;

Rabbi Shach, Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 65-7. [In a letter written two days before Rosh HaShanah in the year 5749]: “…All his works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”

See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought. See also ibid. p. 28-9. Rabbi Shach explained that he was not lacking in Ahavas Yisrael.On the contrary he was saving the souls of all the Jewish people who had the potential to be influenced by the impure works of rabbi Steinsaltz.


On Rabbi Shlomo Goren;

Rabbi Shach Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, vols.1-2, pp.73-4; vol. 6, pp.78-9. “He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers. One must mourn for the Sefer Torah that was burned”.

Rabbi Shach acknowledged that Rabbi Goren claimed that he was not violating the law and had authored a book in which he justifies his opinion. However, although he himself had not read it, those who had, had informed him that it was no more than “a joke, falsification of facts and lies”.

Rabbi Yehudah Levi;

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vol. 1, pp. 107-8. [Book expressing ‘Hirschian’ philosophy was banned and the author severely chastised for expressing views that are held to be wrong in certain circles.]


On Religious Zionists;

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vols.1-2, pp.75-6. [Although Rabbi Shach was most passionate in his views on the secular Israelis, he also inveighed heavily against religious Zionists (or ‘quasi aggudists’: “agguda’im le-machatzeh”). Rabbi Shach once said:] “I am compelled to tell you”, that they are essentially no different. It is “the same pot” of Tereifah meat; “the only difference is that their [the religious Zionist’s] pot is covered with a knitted yarmulke (Kippah Serugah)!” Religious Zionists have done nothing for the benefit of Torah causes in Israel. They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’). They include Yeshivah high schools in the ambit of their interests – “Oy! What a sharp sword on the soul of the Yeshivos!”

Of course there are also his vile diatribes against Rabbi Menachem Kasher, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohain Kook, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi M.M. Schneerson, and…...

The bulk of his writing are full of such outrageous hate and stupidity, that one might be accused of forgery for quoting them. However it seems that this mekatreg-al-hayehudim has left behind some brainwashed followers who can't even read. I will, if necessary, follow-up with excerpts of his 'Michtavim u'Maamarim' that will leave no doubt as to what a reckless rodef R. Schach actually was.

Chnyock said...

"kein bakodesh chazisicha, liros UZI UCHVODI"

who said that?

Anonymous said...

BU
Where did you dredge up that Chabad propaganda? Ask the alter Mirrers about the long train rides they took to Kletzk to speak to Rav Schach in learning. That's right - Kletzk in Lita - where Rav Schach gave a shiur before the war.

Yishuv Hechodosh is NOT similar to the coed Ramaz. Yishuv has long been populated by Europeans who learned in Litivishe yeshivos, some of whom went on to Lakewood. The level of learning in Yishuv is top notch. Most American bochurim wouldn't last long there. There is then a farher at the end of the year on the every blatt with Rishonim & reid. Rav Amiel himself was a rov back in Lita.


Funny how you left out Ponivizh. What now? Are you going to come back with some preposterous claim that any yokel can become rosh yeshiva there?

You fool! Avi Ezri is a major work on the Rambam. You should to Rav Schach ztl's kever with a minyan to beg his mechila.

Michoel said...

Reb Meir Einayim,
So far, everything you quoted dealt with shitos. And there were others that agreed with all of it.

Arthur said...

Michoel
"They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’)"."He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers.""See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought.It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”These are not personal attacks but attacks on shitos?Perhaps our definitions of the above terms are different.How much more personal get without saying what color gatges they wear or wore.

Anonymous said...

ANON,2:52
Can you please provide one alter of the Mir that we can ask as of today, its all revisionism, he wasn't even famous until 1978 eventough he was old,litvishe insiders definitly heard of him but no Manhig Yisroel etc.. The soloviechigs have no high regard for him even before the Kotler story. Didn't they see the big haskama of the Brisker Rov?

Anonymous said...

Binyumin
Calling names for Gedolie Yisroel that you disagree with, is 1 of the unique pesakim in halacha that the Baal Avi Ezri provided for our generation eventough he writes that he doesn't learn halacha (famous haskama on Tevilas Keilim). By Hasidim they would say its Rebishe Masies but by us Benai torah "Torah Hu Velilmod Ani ..."

MICHOEL said...

I don't see anything in Rav Shach's words that is terribly different from what a lot of gedolim have said about other gedolim from other camps.

Even a brief perusal of the Rebbe sichos show an assumption of Chabad's superiority. True, he is not skewering other drachim. But there would seem to be plenty room (for one that wanted to, and I DO NOT) to accuse the Rebbe of hisnasus over other ehrliche yidden. I don't want to be maarich but one could easily point out all the actual issurei Torah that one is oiver with haughtiness. Now of course, Chabadnikim will taaneh "No, no, chas v'shalom! You don't understand the Rebbe's deep kavanah, etc etc." But it is clear, at least to me, that most Chabadsters also have misunderstood the Rebbe's deep kavanah and stam a zoi hold themselves better.

So therefore, the correct course is to just keep our mouths shut.

I maintain that someone that has written some of the things that have been written on this blog about Rav Shach, does not believe in Toras Moshe and are completely lacking yiras shamayim. But I DO NOT consider them as representative of Chabad chassidim generally.

Reb Dan said...

Reading through some of these comments, I was amazed by the fantasy that seems to substitite for reality in certain peoples minds. So a few points are in order:
Yes, it's true that Rav Shach had lots of nasty things to say about lots of yidden, including rabbonim, rebbes, and drochim. Since he's been dead a few years already, and whatever influence his hate may have had is fading, why don't we leave him alone in the 'olam hoemes' to deal with these issues quietly. He may have had good intentions in attacking everybody, but it's clear that this was and is NOT the derech hatorah as taught by our gedolim. Was the Chofetz Chaim any less of a kanoie for torah than R' Shach ?! Of course not. Could anybody even imagine the CC attacking other jews like RS ? The same goes for the Chazon Ish. He was famous for his kanous in his derech and shittos. Did he go around screaming that those who printed a sefer he didn't hold of could never do teshuvah ?! The same goes for R' Chaim Oizer, R' Chaim Brisker, R' Chaim Volozhiner, and the many true gedolim of the last generations. When we try to defend behaviour that so clearly violates Torah, we only cheapen ourselves to look like fools. Many gedolim didn't hold of R'YB Soloveichik's derech either. Did they call him a kofer and continue to fight him after his passing ?!! THIS is torah ?!
R' Shach was elevated to 'godol' status by a political apparatus terrorizing the yeshivish-velt who used him for their narrow political agendas. Do you really think that our bochurim shteighing in learning today- our future gedolim- do you really think they won't realize that the Avi Ezri is really just a mediocre collection of biurim that never was and never will be a real classic ? How stupid do you think our children are ? The haskama from the Brisker Rov proves nothing at all. For starters, the Griz gave the haskama ONLY on condition that it be printed in the sefer, so why isn't it printed in any Avi Ezri in my yeshiva's library ? Then, for anyone bothering to read through the various hakdamas to the Avi Ezri's different editions, it becomes clear that either 1)much of it was written by different people, or 2) R' Shach was a severe schizophrenic. Go into Chevron today, into R'Dovids, into the Mir, into Merkaz Harav, into any major yeshiva, and find me even one where the Avi Ezri is a major focus. The sefer is a non-event, period. And for those fools who STILL claim the Brisker Rov supported R'Shach, learn some history. R' Velvil held that it's forbidden to take any money from the medina to support the yeshivos, and that a frumer yid should not be involved with them in any way. He was furious at R' Shach for going against the derech hatorah on this, and called any money that came to the yeshivos through this as a mitzva-habo-be'avera. My own uncle was in R' Velvil zlt's yeshiva at the time, and heard from R'Velvils OWN MOUTH- "er vill mishen tumos mit taharos, vos hot er, a nayer toireh". It's well known that for this reason, even though the Griz had held of R' Shach earlier on, he later distanced him and in his last few years was quite cold to him.
Our gedolim wre not baalei-loshon hora, they were not mechrchei riv, they did NOT wage war against other derochim, they merely focused on their own. In fact, they had derech-eretz for other geonim, and didn't make sinas chinam a new 'derech'.

Arthur said...

Calling someone a heretic is not character assassination? I am not going to review every adjective he used to denigrate other chosheve yidden again.What does he have to call them in order to be considered a personal attack,Mamzeirim? Did other gedolim that you claim to have said the same things he did,do it in in such a vile manner?
I think that you are trying to defend this man by what you and many others perceive him to have been and not what he truly was." I maintain that someone (Rav Shach) that has written some of the things that he wrote and said about true Gedoilei Yisroel does not believe in Toras Moshe and is comepletely lacking in Yiras Shomayim" The man may have been Talmid Chochom but he definitely was not an Oihaiv Yisroel or a manhig.

Anonymous said...

Whoever is a real believer and not a wishy washy type in his derech thinks that he has the right path, starting from Hirsch, Brisk, Chabad,and Chasam sofer style, etc.. I would not call it Hisnasois, But Maran is hate hate hate..

Chnyock said...

why don't my questions ever get satisfactory or almost any answer that deal with the issues I raise?

B-U said...

>Where did you dredge up that Chabad propaganda?

Was something I wrote not factual?

>Ask the alter Mirrers about the long train rides they took to Kletzk to speak to Rav Schach in learning.

1) it would be nice if you were a little more specific

2) and so? people travel long distances to study under any number of smart/learned/sharp individuals. Granted, R' Shach was on the same caliber of thousands of Roshei Yeshiva and Ramim. Can anybody really deny that?

>Yishuv Hechodosh is NOT similar to the coed Ramaz. Yishuv has long been populated by Europeans who learned in Litivishe yeshivos...Rav Amiel himself was a rov back in Lita.

My intention wasn't to belittle R' Shach's learning/teaching abilities per se; that paragraph was intended to demonstrate R' Shach's lack of ideology (in his eyes) and prestige (in the eyes of others).

So your arguments while possibly true are moot.

>Funny how you left out Ponivizh.

I didn't reach Ponovezh or even Lomzhe for that matter.

>You fool! Avi Ezri is a major work on the Rambam.

So is R' Itchele Raitport's Bidvar Melech and so are hundreds of other Seforim. There is nothing to indicate that Avi Ezri is on any level higher than the chiddushim/biurim of hundereds of Talmidei Chachamim.

>You should to Rav Schach ztl's kever with a minyan to beg his mechila.

Certainly you believe Rav Shach was Modeh ahl ha'emes? and was bore'ach min hakavod?

What fault would he (or anyone else for that matter) find with what I wrote?

P.S. Who was greater in learning (as evidenced by their Seforim): Rav Shach or Rav Amiel?

Anonymous said...

"why don't my questions ever get satisfactory or almost any answer that deal with the issues I raise?"

what would be the point?

Chnyock said...

which of the fools debating the greatness of any of the aformentioned talmidei chachmim can coherently repeat a shtikel from any of them?....
rav shach
rav amiel
rav raitport

yumy said...

Lubabs are pathetic.
Let's just think for sec:Ponovizh was the largest yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel for unmarried men for years.The cream of the crop studied there, including Lubavitchers.Now, when Rav Kaheneman went around seeking the top notch magidei shiur, why would he take the 'mediocre; Rav Shach,eh? Who was together with world class torah personalities, such as R'Shmuel Rozovsky, arguably the best magid shiur, post second world war, R'Dovid Povarsky, who served for a short time, though a Litvak in Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin, Rav Dessler. famous mussar personality and R'Chatzkel Levinshteyn, Mashgiach in Der Alter Mir.Why was Rav Shach there, eh?
Lubab quit your baby 'babbeh mayses'
Arthur and Dan, Most of what Rav Shach wrote in his letters were agreed upon by other rabboinim.You are getting pretty pathetic when you use the letters he wrote against R'Goren as some kind of 'natiness'.You guys are so clueless, R'Goren after the famous 'psak' had very,very few defenders.

Arthur,one last thing:You claim to be an 'ish seivo', but I always feel I'm debating a rotzer from Oholei Torah, am I wrong??

B-U said...

for your information (you chnyock), Rav Amiel's are Seforim I constantly refer to; I read R' Raitport's Kuntreisim as they are published and occasionaly look at his Seforim; I also do sporadicaly examine shticklach in Avi Ezri too.

and while still on the topic of fools, I wonder how you would know if anyone was coherently repeating a shtikel Torah anyway....

P.S. trolls are the scum of the earth, and the best approach is to simply ignore them. As fate would have it though, you unwittingly brought up an important point, and so I saw the need to make this one exeption.

Chnyock said...

b-u
can you be masbir a shtarke chiluk between a fellow commenter and a troll?

Michoel said...

"trolls are the scum of the earth"
OK, good. This is how Lubavitcher critics of Rav Shach talk. I have to add that to my scrap book.

Arthur said...

Yumy
I take umbrage and feel highly insulted to be accused of being"A rotzer from Oholei Torah".From which Mosed Chinuch are you a "rotzer"?LOL.
The fact is that when Oholei Torah had it's beginning as a Yeshiva ketana I was learning in 770.I am not a great fan of that Torah institution because it was set up as direct competition to Tomchei Timimim which was meyased by the Rebbi Rayatz.
As to Ponevezh it definitely is not the great Torah institution it was during the lifetime of Reb Kahanmen ZT"L who was not a great lover of Rav Shach after they had a number of altercations after he (Shach) became RH.Look at the physical fights going on in Ponivitch now days.All the legacy of Maran.

chnyock said...

arthur
"oholei tora was set up as direct competition to tomchei temimim"
care to clue us in on who founded it and why?

Chaimshmeel said...

Yumy, you moron. R. Shach was not a posek, nor a godol, he was a rosh yeshivah. And most times he tried issuing 'piskei dinim', he put his foot in his mouth, usually by calling customs dating from the rishonim or geonim 'kfira' and other nonsense. All Ponevezh is today is a mental asylum where they turn off the lights on shabbos in the name of 'kovod hateyreh'. Yes, we understand you've been badly brainwashed, but try and think, even for a second;
If there were any gedolim who agreed with all the shmutz R. Shach spewed, why isn't there any evidence of same ? No letters, tapes, tshuvos..... nothing ?! You idiot. And you try and compare him to R' Kahaneman or Povarsky only shows how clueless you are about the history of Ponevezh or anywhere else.

Arthur said...

Chnyok,
It seems that many of the newly arrived Rhushesse chassidim were against the study of any limudei choil,which Tomchei Timimim did offer on both the elementry and high school level.As a result Reb Michoel Tietelbaum Z"L and a group of other Rhushesse Chassidim founded Oholei Torah which has no limudei chol to this very day.In Tomchei Timimim it remains an option.Just one point of clarification.The name Tomchei Timimim is now used for Beis Medish limudim.Elementry and high school are called Achei Timimim.

Anonymous said...

there is 1 talmud chochom in Salabodka, Rav Dov Landau that saw the future on Moron Churban of politicization of bnei torah that it wil create a churban and it did,I guess his chasidic Strikover bloodline gave him a edge on his misnagdisher brothers

Arthur said...

Clarification of my previous post.Tomchei Timimim was originally founded by the Rebbi Rashab in Russia.
The Rebbi Raytz was meyased it in the USA.

Anonymous said...

why did they want to be frummer then the rayatz?

Hirshel Tzig said...

not RaYaTz, RaSHaG. His Son-In-Law. I doubt RaYaTZ had much say in that decision. VeDaL.

Arthur said...

"why did they want to be frummer then the rayatz?"
Good question.That's why I'm not a great fan of Oholei Torah

Arthur said...

"I doubt RaYaTZ had much say in that decision. VeDaL".
That seems to be the current take on the limudai chol issue but I have my doubts about it.We know that the Rebbe was very much opposed to limudai chol so some slight historic revisionisim was used to clear up the seeming discrepancy.
I don't remember this being an issue in the old days but I could be wrong.

Arthur said...

PS to the above
In those early years of the Lubavitcher Yeshiva most of the student body did not come from Lubavitcher backgrounds.There was a dearth of yeshivas at that time and the norm for the few other yeshivas was to offer limudai chol.In order to remain competitive,Lubavitch had to do the same.As more Lubavitcers reached the shores of the USA the demand for limudai chol decreased.

Anonymous said...

BTB (or Back To Basics):

>a shtarke chiluk between a fellow commenter and a troll?

Troll
-noun
1. a lure used in trolling for fish.
2. (in Scandinavian folklore) any of a race of supernatural beings, sometimes conceived as giants and sometimes as dwarfs, inhabiting caves or subterranean dwellings.
3. Slang. a person who lives or sleeps in a park or under a viaduct or bridge, as a bag lady or derelict.
4. an Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

>"trolls are the scum of the earth"
OK, good. This is how Lubavitcher critics of Rav Shach talk. I have to add that to my scrap book.

Scum
-noun
1. a film or layer of foul or extraneous matter that forms on the surface of a liquid.
2. refuse or offscourings.
3. a low, worthless, or evil person.
4. such persons collectively; riffraff; dregs.
5. scoria

Get your head out of the gutter!!

Anonymous said...

The Rayatz didn't have enough Brooklyn kids that should sacrifice the secular studies, he had enough basic Yidishkiet fights on his hand the Rebbe had already enough Brooklyn kids from chasidishe families to create a pure limudie kodesk Cheder

Anonymous said...

There is so much ignorance here it is crazy. Those who put down Rav Shach's learning on this thread are obviously am hooratzim. And for the shotah who wrote that Rav Itchile Reitport's seforim on the Rambam are as chashuv as those of Rav Shach's, Rav Reitport told me that he, Rav Reitport, is bigger than the so called rebbe in learning! Those who are talmidei chachomim know what the Avi Ezri is. For the sonei hashem and true tzrorei yehudim on this thread like Albert, may Hashem show you the light and the error of your ways b'korov mamesh.

Anonymous said...

why wasn't limudei chol dumped in tt as soon as the demand dropped?

Anonymous said...

the fights now in ponovich have nothing to do with rav shach, rather the kahanamen clan...

Anonymous said...

"Those who put down Rav Shach's learning on this thread are obviously am hooratzim"

And so it transpires that the siman muv'hak of a Talmid Chacham is someone who doesn't put down Rav Shach's learning.

No wonder all the bumbling fools who comprise the "Yeshivishe velt" form the umbrella "Toirah Wurld". They're all Talmidei Chachamim of the first class!

BTW one wonders what the point of your post was. To convince the posters that they are Amei Ha'aretz? To convince impressionable readers to take Mr. Anonymous at his word that they shouldn't listen to "those Amei Ha'aretz"?

Or perhaps to convince yourself?

"And for the shotah who wrote that Rav Itchile Reitport's seforim on the Rambam are as chashuv as those of Rav Shach's, Rav Reitport told me that he, Rav Reitport, is bigger than the so called rebbe in learning!"

So, that means he isn't as great as Rav Shach? Or, that he is so great that he had to bavorenn that he is even greater than "the so-called Rebbe" (as opposed to real Rebbes like Rav Shach, Shteinemann, Kanievsky)? Or, that someone who thinks he's greater than his Rebbe doesn't have sufficient "Emunas Daas Torah" to believe that his sefer isn't as choshuv as Rav Shach's?

"Those who are talmidei chachomim know what the Avi Ezri is."

Wait a second. Are you a Talmid Chacham? How do you know who or what Talmidei Chachamim are anyway?

"the sonei hashem and true tzrorei yehudim on this thread like Albert"

Halevai we were all like Albert.

(If we only knew who he was).

Arthur said...

"why wasn't limudei chol dumped in tt as soon as the demand dropped?"
Because there remained a sizable parent body that wanted limudei chol.That's why it's an option to this very day.At least at the Ocean Parkway branch.Not sure about Crown Heights.

Arthur said...

"For the sonei hashem and true tzrorei yehudim on this thread like Albert"
Who the heck is "Albert"? You must be hallucinating,as you are with the rest of your "lomdishe" post.I couldn't find anyone by that name posting here.Maybe you mean me,Arthur? If that,s the case you can't read either.Ah zien och in vei tzu dir mit dein getchke ,the "so called" godol hashor.(spelling typo intended).

Anonymous said...

Arthur,

If am horatzim like yourself and others can somehow dismiss Rav Shach as a nobody or worse, than it is a reflection of the lowliness of your character and the so called Rebbe whose teachings have guided you to behave like such a crass human being. All the obfuscation you and your evil kind have attempted to make of simple posts only demonstrate the true evil the so called rebbe brought into this world. May you be zoche to a yeshua.

Arthur said...

Anonymous 10;44pm
Maila you want to call me an am hooretz art mir nit.I never considered myself to be otherwise But I blame your idol "The Oihaiv Yisroel of Bnai Brak" for spewing the venom and hatred on my "so called Rebbi" and made you into what you are. "Vemivorech yisborech".May you to be zoche to a yeshua.As to "maran" I doubt that he was zoche to a yeshuah or anything else.Not after what he called "my so called Rebbi", and many others for that matter.

mosheshmeel said...

Anybody looking for proof of R' Shachs amhoratzus doesn't need to look in the avi-ezri. A quick flip through his 'maamarim umichtavim' shows that the man was truly ignorant of most torah history (like the minhagei and various machlokes harishonim), and that heis only response to anything he was clueless about was to scream 'divrei minuss' and suchlike. If this stupid debate continues, I'll be happy to post ridiculous excerpts from 'michtavim umaamarim' demonstrating his incredible ignorance. The hate has already been demonstrated. And if anybody's wondering why none of his public diatribes were ever published, it's because they're so embarrassingly insane that even artscroll couldn't put a good spin on them. If you'd like, Tzig, I'll be happy to fax you a few (complete / unedited) transcripts so you can see what I mean.
Give it up, you idiots - you have enough real gedolim to defend. Stop making fools out of yeshivaleit by defending R' Shachs terrible mistakes.

Michoel said...

OK, it could be I was quick to judge, so please be mochel. But it is hardly an aidel lashon

Anonymous said...

mosheshmeel/adolf:

You are completely and utterly out of your mind. There is no other explanation for the crazniess you wrote above.

Anonymous said...

"You are completely and utterly out of your mind. There is no other explanation for the crazniess you wrote above."
Why? Because he writes the truth?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
mosheshmeel/adolf:

You are completely and utterly out of your mind. There is no other explanation for the crazniess you wrote above


How convincing!

I think I'll finally agree after that is repeated one more time.

Anonymous said...

Anonomous of 1:13, you know as well as anyone else, that that could not have been my intent. In fact, your disingenuous question applies the same level of bad faith as moshesheeml and adolf have used in their repeated lies against one of the acknowledged outstanding talmidei chachomim of the last genertion. It is so utterly crazy that it shows that they cannot be taken seriously. And you, unfortunately, instead of taking the chance to be quiet or respond like a normal and honest human being thought it would be funny to write something cute. Well its not cute. And the comments made by those two are reprehnsible and completely irresponsible. I don't know when the Rebbe taught that sinas chinam is muttar and that one is supposed to lie about those who belittled Chabad, but if these are his teachings, its no wonder who is looked at the way he is by the charedi community at large. You are doing yourselves an enormous disservice by behaving this way--not to mention providing a demonstration of the hate filled teachings you must have been taught in order to write the lies and madness you have written on this thread.

Anonymous said...

Who is "Adolf"?
"I don't know when the Rebbe taught that sinas chinam is muttar and that one is supposed to lie about those who belittled Chabad, but if these are his teachings, its no wonder who is looked at the way he is by the charedi community at large"
So now you are the spokesman for the "chareidi community at large"?
Why is it that such self righteous and smug individuals as yourself always think that they represent a large constituency? Speak for yourself.

Meir Einayim said...

Isn't it interesting that there hasn't been one coherent defense of R' Shach an his anti-semitism made here ? For all of you who keep howling about what a great talmid chochom he was, why can't you present any clear proof ? His hate and ignorance, on the other hand, need no further proof at all - somebosy was stupid enough to print 'Michtavim uMaamarim' without having them redone by Artscroll first. Stop telling us how many clowns were at his levaya, and start explaining away all his hate and amaratzus. IF you can !!
Mosheshmeel;
I think I know which transcripts you're talking about - I saw them in 1992, right after one was printed on it's own. Perhaps it's time to show the world what the man really was....?

dina said...

Why is telling the truth suddenly 'crazy' ? On the contrary, I think all you idiots believing the nonsense routinely spread about R' Shach have been so badly brainwashed, you're hopeless. Why is he so great again...remind me- the brisker rov wrote a haskomo for him...LOL ? Don't you realize how dumb this all sounds ?!

i wish i could achieve the Derech Chassidei HaBesht - Ahavas Yisroel said...

While i do (in my great stupidity in believing i am on the level to even)have opinions on such a complex issue, there is one thing i can say. True ahavas yisroel is not saying 'stop putting us down, where is your ahavas yisroel?' be'emes that is sinas chinam because you are only asking for ahavas yisroel FOR YOURSELF. its selfish and disgusting she'ein kamoyhu... TRUE TRUE TRUE ahavas yisroel, and i KNOW its true, because achieving some level of EMES ahavas yisroel, is when a person says 'stop putting him down! i strongly disagree with him, but stop because it is wrong! it is sinas chinam because we are not on the level of doing things leshaim shomayim nowadays!!!' - that is true ahavas yisrael, and that is what i yearn for! hate others and you destroy everything, in gashmios and ruchniyos (see what the Baal HaTanya's son, the Mitteler Rebbe ZTL say on this, i saw it in otzar pisgomei chabad), including yourself... ALL 'political'/machlokes blogs are therefore ossur, whether or not you believe that they 'defend/attack'. I am a chossid with strong ties to Munkatch... i learn in a chabad yeshivah, though i am not chabad, and i have many litvishe and chabad friends... i even went to ner yisrael for a while and i learnt/taught chassidus there, and learnt a lot from many many different types of people. i dont agree with some things in that yeshivah (and in my current yeshivah, for that matter), but WHO AM I TO JUDGE??? who am i to talk against a fellow yid??? how can you see machlokes and not cry??? RIBOYNO SHEL OYLAM!!! Please take this to heart as it comes from mine. what is chassidus or yiras shomayim without the ikker, which is ahavas yisroel...

Anonymous said...

Tzig, I wrote a respectful response to the above "comment." Please post it. Thank you.

Yosef Yitzchok said...

>>Isn't it interesting that there hasn't been one coherent defense of R' Shach an his anti-semitism made here ?

His antisemtism? Wow. Its just as antisemetic as the Rebbe comments about the Chazon Ish or those who did not agree with his position on Sukkos.


>>For all of you who keep howling about what a great talmid chochom he was, why can't you present any clear proof?

Proof is in his seforim and in what others said about him, like the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Rav Isser Zalman, Rav Shmuel Berenbaum, Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro and Rav Paler. That is the same level of proof you accept for the Rebbe's scholarship.

>>His hate and ignorance, on the other hand, need no further proof at all - somebosy was stupid enough to print 'Michtavim uMaamarim' without having them redone by Artscroll first.

No. Someone was stupid--yourself--to write like that about someone he knows nothing about. I doubt you ever even read Rav Shach;s maamorim!!! Talk about hate and ignorance--LOOK AT YOURSELF AND YOUR REBBE. LOOK AT THIS THREAD!!!

>>Stop telling us how many clowns were at his levaya

There were no clowns at his levaya.

>> and start explaining away all his hate and amaratzus.

There was no hate and no amaratzus. You are full of hate and amaratzus. Rav Shach was a great ohev yisroel and one of the greatest talmidei chachomim of his dor.

Anonymous said...

>>Why is telling the truth suddenly 'crazy' ? On the contrary, I think all you idiots believing the nonsense routinely spread about R' Shach have been so badly brainwashed, you're hopeless. Why is he so great again...remind me- the brisker rov wrote a haskomo for him...LOL ? Don't you realize how dumb this all sounds ?!

Adolf and the others are too full of hate and amaratzus to appreciate this.

Anonymous said...

>>That is the same level of proof you accept for the Rebbe's scholarship.

This is NOT true. No one on the level of Rav Paler and the like thought as highly of the Rebbe's learning as they did of Rav Shach's. But these oisvurfs don't get that--they are sonei Hashem, sonei Torah, sonei Yisroel, and evil am horatzim.

Anonymous said...

If you really read the Michtavim like I did--all the volumes--you would be awe inspired by his ahavas yisroel and gaonus. Sheidim like Moer Einayim don't know how to read.

Arthur said...

Will some one tell me already who this guy "Adolf" is?

Arthur said...

We have an Orwellian situation here.If the "Oihaiv Yishmoail of BB" would appear to all his defenders here and scream into their faces "I HATE,I HATE,I HATE" they would say he really means "I LOVE,I LOVE,I LOVE.

Anonymous said...

I think they are referring to you, adolf. Btw, it was interesting to note the venom you have toward some gedolei yisroel and the pathetic way with which you tied yourself in knots trying to defend the rebbe on another blog. Heil.

Arthur said...

"Btw, it was interesting to note the venom you have toward some gedolei yisroel and the pathetic way with which you tied yourself in knots trying to defend the rebbe on another blog. Heil."
Interesting.The only "godol" I attacked on this blog or any other was the "Oihaiv Yishmoel".I understand he was a prime candidate for Reichs Fhurer but was rejected because they figured that he had so much hate that they would need two of him and one was to much.
As to being "tied up in knots defending The Rebbi" can you please quote the passage in which I did so or are you just quoting something written by some idiot on this "other blog"?

Arthur said...

Will the individual who wrote that the Rebbi attacked the Chazon Ish about his stand on Sukkah please show word and phrase in which he did so?Don't tell us "it's well known" or "It's around on the internet" ,"there's a video" but the exact words in which you claim he does so.

Anonymous said...

No, Adolf, because that would never happen. On the other hand, we have videos and recordings from speeches where the Rebbe said I hate I hate I hate. . . go figure. You are the soneh Hashem, you are the sonei Yisroel. And the fact that you can write in such a disgusting way about a gadol hador, a man like Rav Shach, says a lot about you as a human being.

Arthur said...

Tzig
I'm beginning to believe your right.These shoitem are so brainwashed about Maran that they don't even know that their brainwashed.You show them chapter and verse, quoted directly from his own Maimorim umichtovim, the vile hatred that this man spewed and they still repeat the same mantra over and over that he was a great "oihaiv Yisroel".This whole "discourse" is an exercise in futility.Ah shoita blaibed ah shoita.All they resort to is name calling but will never bring you definite proof to back up their inane statements.I think it's time to move on to more productive pursuits.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Artie

as long as those pursuits include other posts on THIS blog...

Anonymous said...

>>Interesting.The only "godol" I attacked on this blog or any other was the "Oihaiv Yishmoel".

Your insults show how completely full of hate, mush and propoganda YOU are. To even suggest he was not a gadol b'yisroel shows that you don't care about intellectual honesty, but, rather, hate.

>>I understand he was a prime candidate for Reichs Fhurer but was rejected because they figured that he had so much hate that they would need two of him and one was to much.

So you are saying he is worse than Adolf Hitler. You will burn forever for this.

>>As to being "tied up in knots defending The Rebbi" can you please quote the passage in which I did so or are you just quoting something written by some idiot on this "other blog"?

Not neccessary. Go back on the blog and look yourself. Oh, wait, you are incapable of looking at yourself and seeing your own foibles--only besmirching one of the greatest gedolim of the last generation is something you can do. There was not a single person on that thread who did not see through your lies and distortions. NOT ONE.

>>Will the individual who wrote that the Rebbi attacked the Chazon Ish about his stand on Sukkah please show word and phrase in which he did so?Don't tell us "it's well known" or "It's around on the internet" ,"there's a video" but the exact words in which you claim he does so.

Why is this neccessary? THIS IS ON A VIDEO ON THIS BLOG!!! If you are too lazy to look at it and see him going nuts and spewing forth hatred akin to the level of Rav Shach's comments about sonei Hashem, sonei Torah, and sonei Yisroel like yourself, then it says something about you. Even a ger aino tzadik or rechok like youself can read the english subtitles. (Given the way you write, I will, like Dovid Hamelech, assume you are not Jewish). You can have some translate the yiddish audio, again, on this blog, where the Rebbe says some pretty laughable things about the CI and pnimius hatorah. Given his relative youth and the CI's warm relationships with all chassidishe leaders--from the Tschebiner to the Vizhnitzer (oh, they were not Chabad, that means they also did not know pnimius hatorah, right)--its a unilateral attack. And full of hate.

>>I'm beginning to believe your right.These shoitem are so brainwashed about Maran that they don't even know that their brainwashed.

If you will make up stories about an acknowledged gadol hador, call him Hitler and all the other things you've done on this and other threads, I don't see how you can have so little self-respect by calling others shoitim.

>>You show them chapter and verse, quoted directly from his own Maimorim umichtovim, the vile hatred that this man spewed and they still repeat the same mantra over and over that he was a great "oihaiv Yisroel".

See the video about your oheiv Yisroel. Nay, don't even do that. Assuming you are capable of reading hebrew, why don't YOU read michtavim u'maamorim--every page, every volume. After you do that, you are free to revisit the evil words you wrote and consult someone about the teshuva you may be capable of doing.

>>This whole "discourse" is an exercise in futility.Ah shoita blaibed ah shoita.

True. You will always remain one.

>>All they resort to is name calling but will never bring you definite proof to back up their inane statements.

This is unbelievable. You are motzi shem ra on a meis who was a gadol b'yisroel and then you write about others, keiulu, making innane statements without support? Have you any shame?

>>I think it's time to move on to more productive pursuits.

The only thing productive you can do is do teshuva. Otherwise, you remain, like all reshoim, as good as dead.

Arthur said...

anonymous 10:07
The same old garbage and character assassination with not one single word or quote to back up your inane blabbering about the "Godol Hador"."Read","It's right here on this blog" but nothing to back it up.
The fact that you're motzi shem ra on the Rebbi is of course meant to be praise and I'm not reading your frantic spewing of hate correctly.
As I said to Tzig above that all the Toches lekkers of Maran are brain dead and there's no sense on continuing this intelligent discourse.All you resort to is Orwellian sophistry (I doubt that you know what that means).I leave the field open to you.You can continue your rants on your own.Ah zein och un vei to your misnagdeshe oilem habo with people "burning" and other "oinshim" taken straight out of the Spanish inquisition.
Ah gutten un lechtigin Shabbos al pi darkei Hachassidus.

Anonymous said...

The same old garbage and character assassination with not one single word or quote to back up your inane blabbering about the "Godol Hador"."Read","It's right here on this blog" but nothing to back it up.

It is completely impossible to square this statements with the facts. The only character assasination here was your assasination of Rav Shach. Everything stated is backed up, you just refuse to see it.

>>The fact that you're motzi shem ra on the Rebbi is of course meant to be praise and I'm not reading your frantic spewing of hate correctly.

I did not say a bad word about the rebbe. The fact that you have such a double standard, however, demonstrates that you don't care about the Torah or Halacha, but only the rebbe. That is not in concert with his teachings.

>>As I said to Tzig above that all the Toches lekkers of Maran are brain dead and there's no sense on continuing this intelligent discourse.

There was no intelligent dialogue coming from you. You were being reprimanded for your being a menuval. That's it. You not only refused to own up to your own motzi shem ra on this thread but became progressively worse until you shows yourself for the rasha that you truly are.

>>All you resort to is Orwellian sophistry (I doubt that you know what that means).

You, sir, do not.

>>I leave the field open to you.You can continue your rants on your own.

The only rants came from you. You were told to own up for your mistakes and disgusting statements. You were the one who kept on making up the most vile lies about a gadol b'yisroel, calling him worse than Hitler ymcs"h. You probably do not know what rant means.

>>Ah zein och un vei to your misnagdeshe oilem habo with people "burning" and other "oinshim" taken straight out of the Spanish inquisition.

Olam Haba is not something you can talk about anymore. Not after what you wrote. I doubt you know which Gemara I am referring to, but you have no chelek in olam haba.

Anonymous said...

Ah gutten un lechtigin Shabbos al pi darkei Hachassidus.

A goy who keeps shabbos is chayiv missah. Don't do it.

Anonymous said...

Hirsch, please post my comments. Thank you so much.

Arthur said...

PS to the above
"There was not a single person on that thread who did not see through your lies and distortions. NOT ONE."
Just checked, there's only one individual who refers to himself as "misnaged" who claims that he sees through my"lies and distortions".Which proves my point.Your brain dead.You can't count.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous 3:46

I can't post the comment the way it is. Change it. You know which parts.

Anonymous said...

I honestly do not which one's-and I still fail to see how you can allow adolf to state Rav Shach was worse than Hitler and then be sensitive about my posts. Either email me or write deleted. The point is that Adolf has been out of line and you should have probably pointed that out some time ago.

Rafi said...

Hirschel
I think you've got to stop this thread already.
Arthur:You are not bringing any kovod to the Rebbe by using vile names against Rav Shach, all it does is allow them to use the same language about the Rebbe.
Grow up already, I expect more maturity from you

Arthur said...

I stopped already as stated above.
I said I that agreed with Tzig that any type of intelligent or unintelligent discussion with these guys is a brocha livatoleh.The fact remains that they will continue to heap shmutz on the the Rebbi whether I or anyone else discontinues to post about Shach.I fully realize it's ain ledovor sof.

Anonymous said...

Arthur,

You demonstrate a complete lack of comprehension. You wrote disgusting, untrue things about a gadol hador. When you were brought to town for it, you started lamenting over the relative insults on the rebbe and insulted those who made strong comments against your rishus with lies and personal insults. I and several other people did not baschmutz the Rebbe. You more than implied that Rav Shach is worse that Hitler, ymc"s. Instead of learning the evil of your ways you become more fanatical, moste disgusting, until you reached evil. You have demonstrated that you cannot intelligently discuss anything without resorting to blanket lies about people much greater than you. That is the only fact that can be legitamitely gleaned from this thread. Now put your money where your mouth is: apologize and don't lie again. Or at least don't comment anymore.

Anonymous said...

Tzig, my response this morning was not at all inappropriate. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Disregard my last comment. Someone told Rav Yonah Lazar about Arthur's comments. I really hope he does not go on as his comments are generally not nice about the Rebbe. I would think you would agree that when you look at the mud slinging, you would see that few comments were made against the rebbe, and a whole lot of really mean spirited lies were said about the Rebbe.

Once again, I ask Rav Yonah Lazar, shlit"a: Please don'e make this a slug fest, Arthur and his like are not talmidei chachomim, their opinions mean nothing and you should not take them seriously. thank you.

Anonymous said...

Olam Haba is not something you can talk about anymore. Not after what you wrote. I doubt you know which Gemara I am referring to, but you have no chelek in olam haba

a) one has full right to disagree over whether one is in the geder of Talmid Chacham (which is why R' Yonasan Eybechutz could rip apart the penei yehoshua, R' Yaakov Emden - R' Yonasan and just about everyone else, the Gra - the chassidim, the Chassidim - each other, the Musarnikes - the non-mussarnikes and vice versa, etc. etc. etc.), and in such cases one cannot claim to know the objective truth, and rightfully condemn the other side.

2) in your haste to send people to eternal damnation you forgot the basic rule of Ein Adam Nitpas Al Tza'aro, which excuses sharp or inappropiate words uttered while angry and hurt. That of course could also be applied to you.

P.S. It should be pointed out that it was only the hatred towards the respective enemies of the RY and the Fuehrer that were being compared. While perhaps not appropiate, that is not nearly the same as comparing Rav Shach's politics to extermination or genocide.

Arthur said...

Anonymous 8:22am
First of all I did not start this exchange of recriminations.I quote below the first of many posts on this chain that attacked the Rebbi who I consider to be the godol hador.
"Tzig, do you go to his grave? Or are you from those that dont believe hes in the cemetery? Today is Reb Shneur Kotler zatzals yahrtzet. it is also the day that the shabsai tzvi of the 20th century was finaly silenced B'H. its sad how many yidden are brainwashed into that cult."
Secondly there are a number of other bloggers (not myself) who quoted chapter and verse from Rav Shachs Maimorim umichtovim where he denigrates other gedolim and choshive yidden which you fail to address truthfully except to say that they are lies.I am sure that you are fully aware of what Rav Shach's attitude was towards the Rebbi and his mivtzoim and Chabad in general and expressed them openly ,but again you did not address this issue but chose to call them lies and started to address me by the name "adolph". No where on this blog did you refute any of the documented proof of Rav Shachs vitriol filled rantings against the Rebbi and others.Your only reply was to refer to me and others, who were a bit more eloquent in describing the man and his agenda, as falsifiers.
Being such great talmedai chachomim I am sure that you are fully aware of what Chazal tell us to do when ones Rebbi is attacked and this works both ways and therefore I fully appreciate that which you wrote agaist Tzig,others and myself but lets remember who started all of this hogwash.
Yes I will stop posting about this subject but not because I feel I did something wrong.I still believe that which others and myself wrote about the man is true.
As I wrote to Tzig on a above post I think that that this is an exercise in futility from both sides of the fence and can go on ad ain ledover sof.If you wish to continue attacking me I will not respond and you'll be preaching to your own choir.So therefore lets agree to disagree and stop at this a point.

Anonymous said...

You stated that you will not continue to write long ago. Yet here you are again. Stop writing. You are a shakran who wrote motzi shem rah about a gadol b'torah. There is no reason to commit more wrong.

With regard to the michtavim, I remain with my impression that you have probably never so much as leafed through a single maamar, let alone went through all the volumes. I will not write with someone who is dishonest enough to make such ridiculous statements about something he never read. I have advised that you go though the whole thing before you charecterize it, along with other sonei hashem on this thread, as being full of ignorance and hate. You have failed to do this. My point was to write out against such an obviously ignorant and evil charecterization. You have failed to be honest and write with greater probity and thought.

I would ask Tzig to confirm that I did not write the comment at the very top of the thread. He has the ability to do so. Once he does, I believe it would be clear, that, unlike you, I and others who have expressed their shock at your use of lies to villify a gadol b'yisroel (and your comparison of that gadol b'yisroel to Hitler--there is no excuse for that, and you know it, anonomous. To suggest that it is ok to only equate Hitler's hate to a tzadik like Rav Shach' so called hate is utterly disgusting and nothing short of evil) without denigrating the Rebbe. So don't use a commenter's comment as a pretense to disavow yourself from responsibility of correcting the wrong you committed. If the first commenter would have come back to write like that, believe me, I would have been on his case, too.

At this point, and I guess anonomous missed the point, there is no question that you have lost your chelek in olam habah. Anonomous's very strange apologetics imply--according to #1--that I or anyone else would not be wrong for writing untrue things about the Rebbe so long as I do not maintain that he is a talmid chochom. I happen to have gone through enough sichos to see the Rebbe was, in fact, a talmid chochom. Rav Reitport has qualified my belief by stating that, while the Rebbe knew everything, he took issue with how well he knew it (this is NOT a problem Rav Shach has, btw-not in the opinion of a SINGLE talmid chochom I know, Rav Reitport included [and my own opinon]). My Rebbe and Rosh Yeshiva, the Noviminsker Rebbe, shlit"a told me that he talked to Rav Shach back in the 90's about the Rebbe's kavod, and Rav Shach showed him the many maamorim which he perused to justify his opinion on the Rebbe's Torah. It is an objective fact that Rav Shach was a great talmid chochom. To write the way you did deprives you of your chelek--if you ever hard one--in olam habah. Ain adam nitpas al tzaro does not apply here as you was given the chance to repent repeatedly. Unlike the first commenter who wrote something disgusting about the Rebbe and then ran off after being told off, you kept commenting--and you became more vehement, more hateful, more out of proportion and reason--until you became a rasha.

As far as your gratuitous slap on the back for being more eloquent about the way you lied about Rav Shach, please note, there was nothing eloquent about it all. You lied about Rav Shach's qualifactions, demonstrated absolutely no working knowledge of his written works, and I called you out on it; case closed. To convince yourself that you can "feel" that that there may be some factual veracity in calling one of the greatest talmidei chachomim of the last generation an ignoramous and worse than Hitler won't get you anywhere. There is no rational way one can think this way. Not unless you are blinded by genuine madness, hate, and sin.

You refused to take it back. You are beyond redemption until you work out a way to do teshuva. If you have demonstrated anything, you have shown yourself to be too removed from genuine Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Shomayim to care about this.

Anonymous said...

Anonomous of 12:17: Your flawed analysis in number one of what allows great acharonim to argue with one another demonstrates a profound deficiency in basics. Welcome to the fold, but learn, please.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous10:44
"I would think you would agree that when you look at the mud slinging, you would see that few comments were made against the rebbe, and a whole lot of really mean spirited lies were said about the Rebbe."????????
Can you please enlighten my befuddled brain as to the meaning of the above?
I find that all those that sign with the name "anonymous" including myself are pasting nothing more then "pashkvilin" which we all know to be unsubstantiated shmutz and loshon hora otherwise why are they (we)hiding behind anonymity?

Anonymous said...

anonymous 3:16
Perhaps what you write about Arthur is true,but who are you or me to decide who will burn in the infernal fires of Gehennim.I think we ought to leave that to the Ribonoh Shel Olam.
Using your train of logic if Arthur, who is the type that you make him out to be,uses such language to describe Rav Shach, should not come as a surprise, but Rav Shach , the Godol Hador,to have expressed himself the way he did about the Lubavitcher Rebbi is truly shocking.
I am far from being an admirer of Chabad but that aspect of Rav Shachs persona puzzles me.

Anonymous said...

instead of the last time it says rebbe, read rav shach.

those who use names don't use their actual names, so its not like they care about what they say, either.

Anonymous said...

The type of reprehensible rhetoric used on this last series of blogs from all sides would me more appropriate for the UOJ blog site where these types of conversation and mud slinging is a way of life.

Anonymous said...

Anonomous 5:15:

Read the Michtavim and see why he wrote what he wrote. Arthur did not. Furthermore, Rav Shach never made things up about the rebbe--i.e., he never states that the Rebbe was an ignoramous, worse than Hitler, or could not get a job at a mediocre yeshiva, etc. I know you have your choice quotes from his writings, but until you actually go through the whole thing, you really have no write to pretend that you are puzzeled by it. After all, you never read it.

I am confident Arthur does not have a chelek in olam habaa because Chazal states he has not chelek in olam habba. I am not basing this on my the opinion of my rabbeim or, like Arthur, my gut feelings because I have to defend someone. Its a Chazal. He's gone. Over. Unless he does teshuva. You ought to learn Sharrei Teshuva if this is something to difficult for you to grasp.

As for the so-called mud slinging: it was a one way proposition. I never wrote a bad word about the Rebbe. And, if you were not biased, you would be able to note that the phenonmenon of maligning Rav Shach and other greats is very, very commonplace on this blog in particular--much like UOJ's. Few insult the Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

anonymous 9:42 AM
"I never wrote a bad word about the Rebbe. And, if you were not biased, you would be able to note that the phenonmenon of maligning Rav Shach and other greats is very, very commonplace on this blog in particular--much like UOJ's. Few insult the Rebbe."
It seems that you are the one that's biased.You disagree with anyone that disagrees with your premise.I am not a Lubavitcher and do not have an axe to grind either way so why am I biased?
"few comments were made against the rebbe, and a whole lot of really mean spirited lies were said about the Rebbe.".I still don't understand what you mean by this statement.You seem to be contradicting yourself.Please enlighten me.
As to recriminations I am referring to those between you and Arthur.
As to the UOJ blog which is full of shmutz and nivel peh against every godol, Litvish,Chasidish or Japanese,in no instance do I find the same degree of hate mongering on this blog.
From your attack on me you seem to be very sensitive to any type of criticism or questioning of your premises and you are a very angry and biased individual, as you accuse me of being, and I am not even trying in any way to defend Arthur.
A partial individual like yourself who is so full of anger is definitely not the one to determine who is worthy of Olam Habo or not.
Your accusation that I don't understand Sharei Teshuva is totally unnecessary and is another indication of your bias against anyone that disagrees with you.
I suggest that you stop your incessant attacks on others and if you can't control yourself stop posting altogether.

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