Wednesday, December 26, 2007

New concepts in Yiddishkeit


(HaRav Yosef Tzvi HY"D Carlebach - father of RSC)

You thought I was done with Chaim Berlin and its leaders, eh? the truth is I thought I was too, but some of the recent comments in the dialogue between "Enquiring Jew" and "Chaim Berlin Tragedy" needed to be brought to the forefront because it sheds light on the mindset of the man and the movement he created in America, as well as shows us what he thought of himself in the scope of the other Gedolei Yisroel, and how needed to react to their actions. One would think that these approaches would be found only in the Chassidishe Cheyder, since Chassidim were always accused of considering themselves "above the Torah" ch"v. Later comments where the whole seder of Baalibatishkeit and Kedimah in saying Maamorim and visitation rights between Reb Aron Schechter and Reb Yonoson David also need to be addressed, but we'll leave that alone for now. Fascinating stuff for those not in "the know," I must say.

Chaim Berlin Tragedy said: "However he (enquiring Jew when he says that "no frum Jew ignores an Hazmonoh from the Godol HaDor) overlooks one very big point, that CB considers Rav Hutner to be THE Godol HaDor and that Rav Schechter is likewise bigger than Rav Moishe. To CB , Rav Schechter is the "chad bedora" in America, and after Rav Elyashiv ein od milvado! So they are not answerable to anyone bazman hazeh, and hence Rav Carlebach's claims are meaningless to them. You may as well use all the hazmonas as toilet paper. He is just another Hutnerian who ran afoul of his Rebbe. They know that Rav Hutner said on him the words of the navi; "bonim romamti vegodalti veheym pash'u bi..." He adds: "CB holds that by the time Rav Hutner was a zoken, he was bigger than Rav Moshe and bigger than anyone and that he was in effect the true RashKeBehag. Aai, the world didn't see it that way, so too bad, the world has a lot of catching up to do from the CB point of view. CB also regards Rav Aharon Schechter as bigger than anyone. From inside CB it was held that Rav Hutner was already mekabel that Rav Schechter was even bigger than himself. This is a key point. That Rav Aharon Kotler answered Rav Moshe's call means nothing to CB, they consider Rav Hutner and even Rav Schechter to be bigger than Rav Kotler and Rav Moishe combined. The world may not accept or grasp this, but to the anshei shlomeinu of CB, Rav Schechter is Chad BeDora, and he need not answer to anyone. As so far as CB is concerned Rav Carlebach is a mored bemalchus and the halachic response to that is as close as ones comes to "warfare," and not by responding to Dinei Torah. In this scenario a mored bemalchcus must be crushed and humiliated to pay the price for his rebellion against the lords he had once sworn allegiance to, and to focus on the Din Torah aspect of it is nisht tzum zach."

Ad Kan D'vorov.


(RAS)

Those of us in Lubavitch who have some inkling of what goes on in YRCB knew and still know that everything that went on there was meant to keep Bochurim away from Lubavitch. Lubavitch was nearby - with the Yeshivah in Brownsville - and it offered something that many of them were after, Machsheves HaChassidus as well as a very learned and charismatic Rebbe, eyb m'meg azey reyden. The Rebbe and Toras Chabad were the greatest threats to Rav Hutner's existence, so he made his own little Branzhe, complete with Maamorim (coincidence? I think not) a door with a buzzer (silly as that may seem), and the list goes on. The whole idea that the Rosh Yeshivah of YRCB is the new Chad BeDorah and "Godol HaDor" no matter who he is seems eerily familiar to the concept of the Rabbeyim of Lubavitch being Nesiyei HaDor. The case against Barry Gurary is also brought up by the CB defenders to somehow compare the two when a Ben Chomesh LeMikroh can clearly see the difference. However, the idea that the man now occupying that spot is also above the (Torah) law is a new concept in Yiddishkeit that seemingly was cooked up in Stone Avenue in Brahnsville Gubernye. I'd be interested to know how that was first accepted by the young men there; was there shock and indignation first, as is to be expected, or were they so enthralled to be a part of this that they totally forgot about the laws of the Torah that they came to learn and became CB "Yes men."

100 comments:

enquiring jew said...

Tzig:

Excellent post. I think that Tragedy made your case quite well, which is that with people of the CB mindset running around the Litvishe Velt, they are hard pressed to knock Lubavitch for anything. Or as the Gemara says Toil Koirah Mbein Eineche. (Take the thorn out from between your eyes before you chastise others).

One of the major differences between CB and Lubavitch is that Lubavitch is not coy about it's shitah. They put it out there for all to see. CB on the other hand essentially masquerades as a normative Litvishe Yeshiva. These shitas of theirs are pretty much kept in house because they obviously realize how silly they sound to the broader Olam Hatorah. If nothing else your posts here have done an excellent job in bringing to light the true mindset of the people in CB.

Another point, there was tremendous Derech Eretz between the Rebbe and R' Moshe. Just take a look at the Teshuvah on Rabeinu tam's tefilin. There was really nobody in the Chasiddesh, Litvish or even the Freier velt who had a bad word to say about him. Not only was he the Gadol Hador in Toirah he was also the Gadol Hador in Anuvuh and Midos.

But there is a method to the madness. CB's "meridah" in the universally recognized Gadol Hador clearly had and has a very focused purpose. Which is to remain above the law. R' Moshe was where the buck stopped in the Oilam Hatorah. By defying him they can now do whatever they want with impugnity. Such conduct truly undermines the fundamentals of Yiddishkeit.

To conclude, "Lo Uvdo Yisroel Avodah Zuruh Ela Lhatir Luhen Arayes Bifarhesya". (Klal Yisroel worhip idols only to justify improper relationships in public). In other words, in order for CB to justify their inapproriate behavior they have to come up with these ridiculous ideas. On the other hand, if you just keep basic Shulchan Aruch,
you can think and act like a normal human being and don't have to spend your days and nights trying to fit square pegs in to round holes.

Anonymous said...

The post above is so rife with disingenuous misrepresentations that its hard to know where to start:

>>One of the major differences between CB and Lubavitch is that Lubavitch is not coy about it's shitah. They put it out there for all to see. CB on the other hand essentially masquerades as a normative Litvishe Yeshiva.

Do you really WANT to go here? Lubavitch is not coy about certain (cough) "shittah"(s)? We all know what the Rebbe did not want to be publicized to the world unless they are ready.

>>R' Moshe was where the buck stopped in the Oilam Hatorah. By defying him they can now do whatever they want with impugnity. Such conduct truly undermines the fundamentals of Yiddishkeit.

The Chazon Ish was where the buck stopped before R' Moshe. Look at how the rebbe was mivayesh him b'rabim AFTER his petirah. The buck stopped by Rav Shach after R' Moshe's petirah. We all know what the rebbe said about HIS teffilin . . .

>>In other words, in order for CB to justify their inapproriate behavior they have to come up with these ridiculous ideas. On the other hand, if you just keep basic Shulchan Aruch,

And the rebbe did the same with the whole God in man's body idea, not to mention other things. . .

Once again, people in glass houses should not throw stones.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous

you do realize that the comments were not made by me, so the "glass houses" analogy doesn't apply, right?

Anonymous said...

Mark my words- within five years, there will be a huge fight between the fruchtys and schechters, its already brewing, and noone will win. Guaranteed.

Chaim Berlin tragedy smiles said...

Hmmm, enquiring jew gets a little carried away with his latest post. He makes CBers sound like a bunch of loonies and as if the Lubavitchers are paragons of normalcy. Would the world agree with such an assessment? Since when do Lubavitchers rechen zich with Rav Moishe Feinstein?

enquiring jew forgets that Chabad is guided by the Shulchan Oruch Harav of the Alter Rebbe and even more by his Tanya topped of by the sichos and seforim of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l.

Anyhow, facts on the ground declare the opposite of enquiring jew's descrition of the "avoda zora" he alleges CB has now fallen into. And again he reveals that he does not know CBers, and worse always trashes it without even knowing who they are. Pity that such one-sidedness blinds a person and harms their ability to be objective.

Ok, so let's see now, as a smaple group of RYH's laeding talmidim, can the following ten major CBers, past and present, and all loyalist talmidim of RYH to his last days, be classed in any of the despicable ways that enquiring jew wishes to class them???:

*Rav Feivel Cohen, posek and mechaber of the Badei HuShulchan.
*Rav Pinchas Stolper, founder of the OU's NCSY and writer of many Torah hashkofa books.
*Rav Shlomo Freifeld zt"l, founding Rosh HaYeshiva of Yeshiva Shor Yoshuv in the 5 towns, whose son-in-law and memaleh mokom, Rav Naftoli Jaeger, does not take a step left or right without first getting RAS's eitzah and reshus.
*Rav Yaakov Weinberg zt"l, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Ner Israel in Baltimre and son-in-law of Rav Ruderman zt"l, (RYH was even the shadchen there.)
*Rav Yaakov Perlow, the present Novominsker Rebbe and Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Novominsk, present Rosh Agudas Yisroel of America, who is in a close alliance with RAS on the MGH.
*Rav Yosef Eichenstein, co-Rosh Yeshiva of the Edison Yeshiva in NJ.
*Rav Yaakov Drillman, co-Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Novaradok in Flatbush, wich is actually headed by RSC's oldest son-in-law Rav Motti Yaffen, and if fact Rav Drillman was probably RAS's closest talmid and maggid shiur in CB till the elevation of Rav Haliwa who was a proteger of Rav Drillman himself.
*Rav Dovid Kohn of Cong. Gevul Yaavetz in Flatbush, even though he became less close to RYH in his latter years he considers himself a close disciple of RYH and Rav Ruderman.
*Rabbi Dr. Chaim Feuerman of YU one of the nations leading experts of Modern Orthodox day schools, who was mekareved by RYH from the JTS.
*Rabbi Shia Fishman, Executive VP of Torah Umesorah until his recent retirement.

and many, many others, lots of them non-CBers who still run to get "yechidus" with RAS and follow his da'as Toirah advice. There are many younger CB alumni Rosh Yeshivas, Rabbonim, Roshei Kollel, and klal leaders that did not know RYH nor RSC, but are an entirely new crop of RAS's talmidim who have gone out into the world and have taken on key leadership positions.

Seems rather strange that enquiring jew and tzig seem to think that "only" Chabad or old-time Rebbes can act like Rebbes. Is there some sort of monopoly? when every local corner shtiebel Rov who puts on a shtreimel and the levush acts like he had just received a mandate from the BESHT.

In any case they needn't worry because the velt has long ago held that CB is a "Litvishe Chasidis" so what great discoveries are being made here by anyone?

Tzig seems surprized that CB, RYH and RAS have had all these "Chasidishe hanhoges" nu, so what else is new? When RYH put on his spodik it was totally out in the open, (see the picture on Wikipedia at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c7/R.Hutner_%28Purim%29.jpg Wikipedia pictures can be reposted, so tzig please do) and you will see RYH in his full glory at a Purim mesiba with his spodik berabim, no chidushim here...

In fact there is an old tale that CBers like to joke about that one day two old-time Chevroners met, it was RYH and his friend from the olden days in Chevron/Slabodka Rav Shlomo Goren, first Chief Rabbi of the IDF and later Chief Rabbi of Israel. So Rav Hutner gets close to Rav Goren and greets and then asks: "Reb Shlomo, ven bist du vegoren a soldat?" to which Rav Goren, without missing a beat asks RYHL "Reb Yitzchok, ven bist di gevoren a Rebbe?" So this is all alte nei'es.

Finally, in response to tzig's latest post, all Chasidim farbreng with their Rebbes on Yom Tov and special days and RYH, now followed by RAS and RYD, have continued with those hanhoges. Again, what is the big deal? The oilem loves it!

RAS firs tischen in Brooklyn while Rav Yonosan David does the same in Yerushalayim.....and in his days as mashgiach so did RSC on a small scale, and in fact he did it so well and with such geshmak that it probably contributed to the suspicions that he was a usurper-in-the-making and that it would be wise to give him the heave-ho before he got too big for his bootstraps. So that RSC was defeated by his own attempts to out-Hutner the Hutnerians, and that is why it is all very odd, and very amusing to some that the an arch-Hutnerian like RSC should run to the very non-CB velt he used to scorn himself to look for help and sympathy which has not really helped him personally all that much against CB be'etzem.

RSC has done far better when he finally decided to channel his RYH and CB-inspired koiches into putting into kesav and WRITING the mehalech of the RYH Toirahs and darchei hamchshava and ***HAKABALAH*** !!! Hence his beautul Maskil LiShlomo set of seforim on the Chumash.

Yes, we can now mention that RYH was a true MEKUBAL and that RAS and RYD are considered just as a great MEKUBOLIM learned in the ways of the MAHARAL of Prague, RAS knows Tanya klohr! (after all, wasnt RYH a chavrusah of both the Lubavitcher Rebbes in America?), and much more, something that Rav Moishe Fienstein was not into, so that tcheperring with RYH, and his two designated memalei mekomo, RAS and RYD, is to enter into a dangerous twilight zone where the sodos and koiches that they are able to tap into and throw back somehow, far exceed any pressures that can be brought to bear against them. If it sounds spooky, it is!

P.S.

What connection does the memorable portrait of RSC's father, HaRav ***DR.*** Yosef Tzvi HY"D Carlebach, have to do with this post? Is anyone here intimating that HaRav Yosef Tzvi HY"D Carlebach represents a "truer derech" whilst CB and RYH do not? If so they are wasting their time because the Yekkishe mehalech of "Towra im Derech Eretz" has long been ignored and pushed away by the Chasidish and Litvishe velt and even RSC himself, from the years that anyone has known him, never preached that gospel.

It was only after RSC was fired from from CB that he began to retrace his ancestral steps and at some point began to talk about his father's greatness, but don't hold your breath for a major revival of Yekkishkeit in the Oilam HaToirah anytime soon, coming from RSC or anyone else.

Anonymous said...

>>you do realize that the comments were not made by me, so the "glass houses" analogy doesn't apply, right?

It does apply as the fellow who wrote it is clearly a Chabadsker.

>>whose son-in-law and memaleh mokom, Rav Naftoli Jaeger, does not take a step left or right without first getting RAS's eitzah and reshus.

This somewhat surprises me. I never thought Rav Jaeger, shlit"a to be so meshubad to Rav Aharon Shechter. I always thought him to be a Gerrer Chossid. Rav Jaeger is such a talmid chochom and is so kind, I really like him.

schneur said...

Halevai there was a revival of Torah Im Derech Eretz.
It seems that Rabbi YH himself may have been interested in it as he too spent some time in Berlin.
Rabbi Josef Carlebach had occassion to leave his KK in Hamburg but chose to stay with them and was killed in KZ in latvia. Thus he was the last chief rabbi of Ahaw kehilloth.
I urge all to read about him in a bio written by his brother rabbi DR. Naftoli Carlebach (father of the "other" Shlomo).
Just like today we have a yeshiva world with no real Litvakes and a Lubavitch with few Reisener Yidden, we can have a TIDE with no yekkes.
The integrity, mentchichkeyt(as Rabbi Hirsch called it Mentch-Israel)civil behavior, honesty etc that marked a TIDE Jew is something all orthodox chugim today could serve to emulate.

Anonymous said...

R Jaeger is actually an einekel of Rav Sjia Noiach Binke, the gabbi of the Bies Yisroel and Chanina Shiff's predecessor. His sons are names Shia Noiach and Yisroel after the Beis Yisroel. He too wears a spodi in Eretz Yisroel.

For the record his shver, R Fryfled, saw the future and even though he was one of the big four talmidim with RYD RAS RSC escaped and founded his own Yeshiva and RYH wasnt too happy with him.

Only in hindsight to we see just how smart he was !

schneur said...

To those readers who have little idea about whta RCB is and the latest happenings there. Could someone summazize the "reka" of the events, the chief players and the the current events there so we can understand FULLY these comments. I plead ignorance.

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Freifeld was the only one of RYH talmidim to successfully open his own Yeshiva bechayav. (R Y Weinberg worked for his FIL and R Perlow was an employee). It took RYH a while to come around, but once he did, he came and made a shecyanu with shem umalchus at Shar Yoshuv.

Chaim Berlin tragedy to anonymous said...

anonymous said: "For the record his shver, R Fryfled, saw the future and even though he was one of the big four talmidim with RYD RAS RSC escaped and founded his own Yeshiva and RYH wasnt too happy with him. Only in hindsight to we see just how smart he was !"

Punkt farkert, RYH was tickled pink that Rav Freifeld was able to keep the spirit of CB going in Far Rockaway so that the two years CB spent there in the time that they were moving away from Brownsville and were looking for another permanent home, which they then found at 1593 CIA in Flatbush, Rav Yachnes's abandoned shull, rav Freifeld helped to fill the gaps because he actually worked for RYH and CB.

Interestingly, Rav Miller stopped being mashgiach when CB moved to Far Rock and then RYH started his search for a new mashgiach. There were two famous RYH talmidim who RYH tried out as mashgiach, the first was Rav Mendel Morris, a person who is a tzadik and then became a sofer. He was so eidel they say that he would bring a bochur a cup of tea if the bochur said he wasn't feeling well. Needles to say, he didn't last too long, only about six months.

Then RYH hit on the idea of moving Rav Freifeld from working in the the CB office as an administrator to be the CB mashgiach and it worked, but he was little too over-dramatic and back-slapping the guys all over the place, not good for shvache yeshivishe people.

Anyhow, around that time, it was Rav Dr. Aharan Soloveitchik zt"l, (the brother of Rav Dr. YB Soloveitchik of YU), who was a talmid muvhak of RYH from Warsaw yet as a child, who RYH made the Rosh Yeshiva of CB as it seems around that time RAShechter was out of commission for some reason. At that time also, Rav Feivel Cohen was tried out as Rosh Yeshiva of CB, but when RAS returned to full force in CB, Rav Feivel was ousted and Rav Aharon Soloveitchik headed off to Chicago to build his own personal empire there. So RYH himslef appointed two of his own talmidim as Roshei Yeshiva: Rav Aharon Soloveitch and Rav Feivel Cohen, both of whom were essentially displaced and pushed out by RAS. That is how strong he was.

So RYH was not focused on Rav Freifeld (who was a big chosid of RYH, but Rav Freifeld was never a Rosh Yeshiva in CB itself) and when CB finally got the green light to move to Flatbush after AF took over the finances, CB left behind Rav Freifeld as a living yerusha to Far Rock.

After that RYH hired RSC as mashgiach. And also as an aside, there was a famous fall-out that RYH had in Far Rock with two more of his biggest talmidim, Rav Greenes a"h and Rav Kleinkaufman, who RYH and CB had hired to run their high school out there it seems but when CB left Far Rock those rabbis were left high and dry by RYH without $$$. I think there was big Din Torah there too, but RYH just brushed it off as well as he headed for Flatbush with his new hanhala of RAS, son-in-law RYD, and RSC and for the high school menahel he struck a deal with another of his famous talmididm and brought in, the Gerrer Chusid, Rav Chaim Segal zt"l from the Mesivta of Crown Heights who became the new menahel of Mesivta Rabbi Chaim Berlin (the VERY succesful and elitist high school of CB.)

So I would not over-rate rav Freifeld's with RYH because RYH had lots of other bigger lomdishe guns around him. But Rav Friefeld was very smart, he never stopped being a RYH chosid and for that he was amply rewarded. And one of those biggest rewards is that the Yeshiva that has now passed on to his son-in-law, Rav Jager gets king size attention and help from CB, RAS and AF especially as they have just built a huge new complex in the 5 towns all with CB, RAS, RYD and AF, cheerleading, blessings and material support.

Anonymous said...

Some historical notes to CBT- when R Freifeld opened his Yeshiva RYH didnt speak with him for several months and wouldnt give him a letter of approval.

When RSF took RNJ as his first eidem RYH didnt call him to say MT because he hadnt asked him reshus.

There are many who maintain that RSF was the greatest talmid of RYH though not in lomdus, but look at his Yeshiva ,he went the opposite way of CB, being accessible, easygoing and revering Rav Moshe.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Excuse my ignorance here; but since when is Shor Yoshuv anything like YRCB? Granted I never had a strong connection with SheOr Yoshuv, but the guys I did see, mostly guys I went to Touro with, don't seem very Yeshivish to me. Mostly half BTs from far away places. Why then do we claim it as a branch of YRCB?

Also, can somebody give our friend Schneur a short rundown on the whole Holoch Yeilech of YRCB? He deserves to be told.

Todah.

enquiring jew said...

There is a story about an encounter that took place in an Israeli jail. An Arab terrorist saw an Israeli jail guard eating chometz on Pesach. He said to him I know were going to defeat you because you don't even keep your own laws.

The issue here is not really about Chabad. The issue here is about cleaning your own house and following your own rules. If you don't clean your house, somebody is going to come along and clean it for you.

CB is running around for thirty years with no clothes on. Tzig has gently pointed out to the Oilam that CB is not wearing any clothes. Yes many distinguished people are aware and have been aware that CB has no clothes but for whatever reason have decided to conveniently pretend as if they were wearing clothes. That doesn't change one iota the fact that CB is naked.

All of those distinguished talmidim of CB just don't change the facts on the ground. "All the kings horses and all the Kings men..."

Tragedy can go on from here till doomsday how important CB and its Talmidim are. Sorry Tragedy, CB is still as naked as it ever was. Like I continue to tell you. If they are indeed as important as you believe, it behooves them to put some clothes on. When people start to notice that it’s the emperor who has no clothes its that much more embarrassing.

I too wondered by the way why Tzig put up the picture of RSC's father. My theory is that he was trying to convey that RSC has a torahdik tradition in his background outside of CB. It’s a very interesting point.

Anonymous said...

>>Rav Jager gets king size attention and help from CB, RAS and AF especially as they have just built a huge new complex in the 5 towns all with CB, RAS, RYD and AF, cheerleading, blessings and material support.

And he deserves it; he's a gaon.

Sho'r Yashuv is a pretty normal, yeshivish place. There are many shiurim there, so its quite accomodating for boys who are on the weaker side, but what they all have in common is that they learn well and hard. The boys in Rav Jaeger's shiur are as good as you would find boys in any other Yeshiva. His shiur is famous for its breadth and depth. And his talmidim, many of them, are as chashuv as guys you would find in Philly, Telz, South Fallsburg, or anywhere else. They are probably a little bit less greasy, though. But I was at many chassunas where I could not tell the difference between a sho'r yashiv boy -- in tzurah and in chomer -- from any of the top yeshivos. So Tzig can be talking about a long time ago. Certainly not now.

Chaim said...

Sh'or Yoshuv is open to anybody:They specialize in boys with baggage and don't feel threatened by having them,regular style yeshiva guys, bt's with chasidishe leanings all together.

Enquiring Jew
You have repeated your point in a most redundant and boring way.You sound totally clueless of the workings of the Orthodox community.You don't know Lubavitch or the Yeshiva community at all.
Are you a baal teshuva?

chaim said...

Enquiring Jew
What did you mean by the following:
''Or as the Gemara says Toil Koirah Mbein Eineche. (Take the thorn out from between your eyes before you chastise others).''

Actually the statement is that when one person tells another 'tol keisam mibein shinecho'(take the 'small piece of wood' i.e a toothpick out of your teeth)he answers 'tol korah mbein eynecho' 'take the BEAM out from between your eyes'
Kora= a BEAM not thorn(and I don't have the foggiest how you would think that kra=thorn, plus without knowing that kora=beam, the whole pint of the message is missed, i.e don't tell me that I have a minor problem i.e a toothpick in my teeth when you have a much larger problem a BEAM between your eyes.

Please brush up on your knowledge before commenting

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chaim

no need to be nasty.

enquiring jew said...

Thanks Tzig.

Chaim:

Tzig is right you know. We here disagree, obviously, but we do so respectfully.

In my entire dialogue with Tragedy I believe we kept the discourse civil.

By the way, I do not necessarily hold any individual CBer responsible for the issues mentioned here. I have a problem with the behavior of the people running CB visa vis their handling of the RSC affair. I have a problem with a really bizarre Shitah, as described by Tragedy, which seems to me is just a poor excuse not to listen to universally recognized Gedolei Yisroel. I'm not sure whether any given individual associated with CB subscribes to that Shitah, and if they do, would they take it to the extreme of those individuals who would use it as an excuse to go against Halacha. At the end of the day people can believe whatever Mishugaas they want. The problem comes in when those beliefs intrude into real life.

I'm sorry if I keep repeating myself. But you know what some people just don't get it until you keep on hokking it into their head. Hey its thirty years and CB still doesn't get it. I know, Tragedy argues they'll never get it. I guess I have more faith in CB then Tragedy does. I just refuse to accept that a Torah jew can seriously go against R' Moshe Feinstein and continue to go on as if that’s normal.

The fact that this issue is still out there and continues to simmer like a pot waiting to boil over tells you that it is a situation that must be rectified.

You know what Rashi says by Yosef. "Hachai aino nishtacahch min haleiv". Live people and similarly live issues are just not forgotten. Dead issues are forgotten and buried. Tragedy would like us all to be Misabel on the Churban. His mistake is that this issue is not dead. That's why were talking about it.

I suspect that's why your so annoyed with me as well.

By the way your absolutely right about the interpretation of the Toil Koirah Chazal.

chaim said...

Enquiring Jew,
Sorry for being a bit nasty.

You do seem to be decent.
Look I want to add something to the discussion:You are making a mistake about this being a 'simmering issue'.It's so totally not.Yeshiva Chaim Berlin is continuing as usual, this story has been totally forgotten by almost all.Some people who have issues with Chaim Berlin try and bring it up from time to time, but ask around and see that it's a totally non issue.I don't think Tzig has anything personal against Chaim Berlin, but apparently, there is some bad blood between Lubavitch and Chaim Berlin, again this has long been buried, but from time to time people with an ax to grind bring it up.

The whole discussion here was just one side, namely Rabbi Carlebachs, I just thing that an honest and objective person cannot jump to conclusions upon hearing one side.

To summarize:Apparently the people who should be most miffed by the suppposed disregard of the hazmono of R'Moshe are on good terms with Chaim Berlin.They are R'Dovid and R'Reuven Feinstein.It should make you think, right.

I just want to add a small anecdote:You have surely heard that there was a story with R'Malkiel Kotlers first marriage and her families refusal to let her take a Get.Whatever.The story has long been forgotten on both sides.There is however one meshugenner in Boro Park, no relation to the wife who continues the 'fight'.Somebody once asked him:'Listen, even the wifes family have stopped the war, after so many years, why are you the stranger continuing it?'
Obviously this meshugenner has no answer, the real answer is a personal vendetta he has against Lakewood for some story going back 40 years, so he is using this as an ax to grind.

Time to let old wars die away and watch out from ba'aley machloikess try to snare you into to their personal vendettas

Chaim Berlin tragedy updates said...

hirshel tzig asked: "Also, can somebody give our friend Schneur a short rundown on the whole Holoch Yeilech of YRCB? He deserves to be told. Todah."

And enquiring jew chimed in with: "...CB is still as naked as it ever was...If they are indeed as important as you believe, it behooves them to put some clothes on. When people start to notice that it’s the emperor who has no clothes its that much more embarrassing..."

Ok, which, by the way, proves my point that most people here are indeed totally clueless about CB altogether, but tzig is at least to be commended for having the guts to ask, because evidently he is smart enough to admit that if you don't know all the facts then you are in no position to make objective and reliable judgements and conclusions.

Ok, so here is a partial run-down, (NOTE: CB is a 100-year old mosad with lots of branches, a long history and very widespread presence, so no short summary here will ever "tell it all" but it's a crumb to start with perhaps), and it's actually very interesting because from the day RYH passed away on chaf kislev, motzei yat kislev, 1980 in Yerushalayim after being in a semi-coma for three weeks following a major stroke, all the elements of CB were in place in Brooklyn.

RAS was the new undsiputed Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Shimon Groner zt"l was already the new mashgiach for about a year, the high school mesivta was running smoothly under Rav Chaim segal zt"l, and the huge CB elementary school was working well for many years under Rav Shlomo Klein who still heads it, Avrohom Fruchthandler (AF) was given the title "President" of CB and not just "chairman of the board" to run the admin and fund-raising (which he still does as he runs his multi-billion $ real estate and financial empire, and he is koveia ittim in th CB bais medrash every day in his "mizrach vant," it's more in the NW, but the point is well-taken) near that of his brother Rav Yosef who says the second-highest shiur in the CB bais medrash for years already. RAS and AF were also left with the job of holding the alumni, organzational and political CB networks together and get then to grow, support "the yeshiva" and help attain the harbotzas Torah and growing to become Gedolei Yisroel of the elite in the CB bais medrash and its velt, goals that RYH had transmitted to his disciples.

RYD was in Israel with his wife, the daughter of RYH, Rebbetzin ***Dr.*** Bruriah Hutner David (BHD) (She wrote her lomdishe on: THE DUAL ROLE OF RABBI ZVI HIRSCH CHAJES: TRADITIONALTCT AND MASKIL.
Columbia University, Ph.D., 1971
Language and Literature, modern) (full free PDF copy of her thesis is at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~spotter/david-chajes.pdf ).

All that remained was to build Yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok (YPY) which CB had to redo since the lot they had bought in Yerushalayim was grabbed from under them by the Belzer Rebbe who had even bigger plans to build his mega-shull. Ad hayom hazeh AF is seething at Belz because he alleges they cost him a hefsed merubeh and that RYD holds that "gantz Belz is treif" (sounds very Satmar doesn't it?, well CB has always had a serious romance with Satmar, at least on the level of idealization.)

So RYD and AF were forced to hunt for a new location for YPY which they reluctantly did in Har Nof, and built the building finally, with its unique kanfei yonah design on top to symbolize all the mesirus nefesh that lead to its construction inclusive of the hijacking by PLO's Black September 1970 of planes with RYH and his late wife Masha, together with RYD and BHD. The YPY was completed and holds a Bais Medrash, Kollel and a high school. RYD is not a popular magid shiur (the yeshiva's top magid shiur is Rav Chaim Yitzchok Kaplan who became RYH last official big-league talmid.)

But RYD is HUGELY popular with his shalosh seudos tischen and whenever he says his ma'amorim berabim, as when he does on his visits on Yom Tov to CB in Brooklyn too, he gets huge overflow crowds, with more than a few spodiks always around because somehow word is out in Ger that RYD (not RAS) has yarshend the koiches hachidush in the inyonei HaKabalah, HaChasidus the Nistar that RYH knew kloh from behind the scenes and packed them into his ma'amorim, as does RYD now too.

So here's the zach, since the day RYD passed away, NOTHING dramatic has happened inside CB except for the normal ebb and flow of life. The yeshiva ketana has expanded, the high school has grown, the bais medrash is filled with top maggidei shiur and the main problem is that bochurim want to run to learn in Eretz Yisroel at the Mir and Brisk and other good Litvishe yeshivos, which is a mixed blessing for CB that on the one hand they are able to produce very good lomdishe bochurim that other yeshivos gladly welcome and snap up and on the other hand CB would love that these bochurim stick around. Some do and some come back, but when the bochurim who left come back from EY they then go to Lakewood, which has a huge contingent of former CB bochurim, yungeleit and eidims married to the daughters of CBers.

RAS rules as the undisputed melech of the Yeshiva, always dressed neatly in his lange rekkel, and he wears a gartel for davening, like all the big RYH talmidim, and zeiden with a beaver hat for Shabbos, noone would dare cross him in any way. He has a frightening, solid yet essentially friendly stare which can be intimidating. He has lost some of his long beard due to a bout with chemotherapy a few years ago but he is clean of it, eats healthy, and does daily exercise. He is in great shape for a many who is about 80!

RAS is very discreet and secretive and divides his day between learning with select bochurim in the yeshiva for morning seder, and in the afternoons he is in his office receiving streams of people, from bochurim and yungeleit with shailos in mili de'alma and rebbeim and rabbonim with questions and klal needs.

Only RAS gets to decide which bochurim are admitted into the Bais Medrash (he basically stays out of those kind of decisions for the high school and the elementary school yeshiva) and RAS is the only one to decide which yungeleit are allowed to enter the Kollel Gur Aryeh and how much of a monthly stipend they are to be paid.

So that there is an air of calm and normalcy all over CB as they go about their daily business and avoidah and the focus is on lernen un shteigen und zein an ehrliche yid. RAS makes trips to raise money for CB and will only visit another truly Torahdikke mosad if it is dedicated to pure limud haTorah and Harbotzas Torah.

There is really not much to report, and this whole tummel that enquiring jew imagines about RSC is just non-existent in CB and its branches bazman hazeh.

It's also hard to fathom how enquiring jew thinks that CB is "naked" when every week in the English-language HAMODIAH and the YATED there are center-fold pictures of RAS at this or that simcha or at this or that asifa fully clothed and noone seems to be raising eyebrows at him when punkt farkert they are trying to figure out the secret of his rise to such influence in the oilam HaToirah, his longevity, and his ability to win friends and influence people all the time.

When was the last time anyone heard somebody badmouthing RAS at a simscha or at any recent asifa, either openly or behind his back? RAS welcomed the Gerrer Rebbe shlita and Rav Shteinman into the CB bais medrash, he organized a and flew a team of cardiac specialists to save Rav Elyashiv's life, he was a sensation when he visited EY on behalf of Lev LeAchim. He gets star billing and attention wherever he goes, so there must be some good, and clothing, on this Emperor of CB!

Which makes the publication now on the this blog of RSC's letter to Mr. Zweibel at the Agudah in 1993 all the more incomprehensible to people, making it look like nekomah and holding of a 30 year old grudge, when RSC should have gotten the drift, smelled the coffee, and should have moved on with life a long, long time ago, rather than repeating his tragic tale to people who could care less about his personal tsores. He may have been better advized to seek psychotherapy to let go of his pain and suffering and find a way to bury his hatchets, and get on with a happier life, than screaming at RAS in letters to people that RAS is an "apikorus" or whatnot, because that is not the RAS they know and meet and that is why they will class RSC's letter as "rantings" and outright loshen horas, which then makes RSC's efforts to get "justice" even more self-defeating since the RAS publicity machine has been working up-front and center 24/7 for the last 30+ years. It is truly a tragice situation is some ways.

Anyhow, a couple of years ago RAS started delivering a shiur k'lali in CB to all the talmidim in the Bais Medrash which RYH did not do it seems, so that everyone gets to hear him and everyone gets the message that he is the one and only boss and that big brother is watching you.

CB has become very much more yeshivish under RAS. No more colored shirts and funny jackets. Everybody is expected to wear a clean white shirt and black jacket (ties are not compulsory, only a few yungeleit and rebbeim wear them.) And no more going to Brooklyn College at night as in the days of RYH. Now there is hardly a "college crowd" and RAS will only allow them to go to Touro, but only after a lengthy delay and much stalling.

In CB they would prefer if everyone went into real estate and if not then take Aguda's COPE courses in computing. Neveretheless it is still astounding to see how many CBers of recent years have become full fledged hot shot doctors, attorneys (remember David Schick?), and compuer specialists in spite of the obstacles in taking courses at Touro at nights.

What else can be said?

There are lots of new alumni active on the various CB boards and RAS has graduated and moniters a whole new crop of young rosh yeshivas and rebbeim who work all over North America.

Here is a sampling of about ten of some big current names that are heavily tied in with RAS and AF. There are plenty more lesser ones as well:

*Rav Aron Kaufman, founding Rosh Yeshiva of the hugely popular Waterbury Yeshiva in Connecticut. Kaufman was turned on to learning by Rav Chaim Segal, became close to RYH and RYD and is guided by RAS and AF in every move. He is also married to Rav Feivel Cohen's oldest daughter. CB is plowing huge money into that community to make it grow as a kehillah.
*Rabbi Ephraim Lazerson, founding Menahel of the Bais Yaakov of Miami, whose father was a Gerrer chusid that became a Lubavitcher and was a mashgiach in Torah Voda'as. Ephraim landed up in CB and became one of RAS's earliest chasidim and follows everything he tells him ad hayom hazeh.
*Rabbi Aron Hoch, the main Torah lecturer of Aish HaTorah in Toronto a pure CBer, son of a CBer. RYD encouraged him to take the Aish shtelle and he consults with RAS on everything.
*Rav Yeshoshua Weiss, founding Menahel of Touro's Yesodei Yeshurun high school yeshiva in Monsey. He was famous for being able to write down every ois that RAS uttered in the 20 years that he went to RAS's shiurim.
*HaRav Aharon Feldman, the zoken Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel in Baltimore is one of RYH's biggest talmidim, but it was RAS who helped to push him into Ner Yisroel after Rav Yaakov Weinberg passed away, and it was then RAS who brought Rav Feldman onto the American MGH and Rav Feldman does not make a move without consulting RAS first.
*Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Teichman is the founding Menahel of the popular BYA Bais Yaakov in Flatbush. A top talmid of RYH, he seeks the counsel of RAS on all major issues especially since BYA is regarded as the counterpart of CB for the daughters of many CBers in Flatbush. In fact when BHD broke with the Kaplans at the famous Bais Yaakov in Boro Park, she was the one who worked with Rabbi Teichman to set up BYA as a modern-day version of the Bais Yaakov moevemnt in America. Note, both BHD and Rabbi Teichman got PhDs. Of course BHD took the concept further by setting up and running the elitist BJJ in Jeruslem with the help of Ger, and where yeshivish American girls with super-IQs get introduced by her to RYH's ma'amorim, the Maharal, Rambans and are put through their paces in preparation for looking for top kollel husbands only.
*Rav Hillel David, brother of RYD was a talmid of RYH but there was a break in the relationship because when CB came to Flatbush, they say that Rav Hillel David had his own yeshiva and shull nearby and that he held it was "hasogas gevul" from which he has long ago relented since now he has made peace with CB, speaks at their events, RAS and AF send people to him to pasken shailos and if his signature is needed by RAS, he can always be counted upon.
*Rabbi Nate Segal with his shull on Staten Island has become RAS's point man at Torah Umesorah and goes around the country speaking up a storm to create kollelim and buck up faltering Jewish day schools. "Nate the Great" is the brother of Jewish radio personality Nochum Segal. Nate is the TRUE "eved kenani" to RAS that RYH had ridiculously sounded out RSC for.
*Rav Gershon Ribner, (son of Rav Dr. Dovid Ribner, one of RYH's closest talmidim and a close personal friend of RAS.) The young Gershon is an illui and learned in CB until he eventually became the eidim of Rav Schneur Kotler zt"l. They wouldn't give him a big shtelle in Lakewood (too much of a CB einikel it seems) so he told them bye-bye and with the help of Nate Segal on SI and with RAS strategizing and AF helping with the money push, has established a new successful Yeshiva on Staten Island to compete with Rav Reuven Feinstein's MTJ there. Rav Gershon does not move left or right without RAS eitzas.
*Rabbi Yerachmeil Fried of the Dallas Kollel (DATA) long ago adopted RAS as his eitza gebber inspite of being a talmid of Ner Yisroel. CB has sent a whole contingent of young rabbis to that Kollel and they have branched off to build up the mosdos in Dallas, Texas with a huge new shull headed by a CB RAS talmid called "Ohr HaTorah" and where RAS recently went for its chanukas habayis.

RYH had lots more big time talmidim who were very matzliach in all sorts of mosdos and that's a big story in itself. In the meantime RAS, backed by AF, has built on RYH's foundations, and for the past 30 years has been focused on building and growth, and not on running around with complaints and a chip on his shoulder as RSC sadly has been doing.

If this is what being "naked" looks like then maybe some people need to figure out that what they see as "naked emperors" are actually fully-laden caravans with disciples and mosdos in trail

Anonymous said...

great great stuff...one of the best comments and posts in a while-

Hirshel Tzig said...

I listen to some of the defenses stated here re: the "Chassidishe Hanhogos in YRCB, but to me Iz Ikker Chosser Min HaSefer.

אהן די בעל שם טוב איז עס קיין חסידות ניט! You can't just decide to fihr zich al derech hachassidus and start Fun Dos Nay! (I guess you'll tell me you can.....) That's what gets me; The idea that they'll use Chassidus to get the Koved and to make the boys feel good, but yet they won't teach Toras HaBesht, VeAderaba!

U' N' said...

I feel betrayed. I have absolutely no frigging idea who it is you're all talking about, what all the acronyms stand for and why suddenly did people who can write more then two three-worded sentences come out of the woods. I'm sure there is an agenda, but I get dizzy before I can get to it ...

Hirshel Tzig said...

U N

It's all part of my plan to keep you away from the conversations here. I realized a while back that you're clueless when it comes to Litvishe Inyonim, so I try and talk about those topics. That way I know I can take it easy a bit.

;-)

The Bray of Fundie said...

The fact that this issue is still out there and continues to simmer like a pot waiting to boil over tells you that it is a situation that must be rectified.

Other than on this blog where is it simmering?

his brother Rav Yosef who says the second-highest shiur in the CB bais medrash for years already. RAS and AF

second year BM or second lowest would be more accurate as Rav Chaim Kitevitz, Rav Pinchos Kahn and the Roshashivas kibbutz are all higher. I'm not even counting the chaburos of the sundry Roshei Kollel Rav Avigdor Kitevitz, Rav Shlomo Halioua and Rav Binyomin Cohn.

The Bray of Fundie said...

CB tragedy-

That was some exhaustive history that you gave shkoyakh.

I must say they that it bears the signs of a tremendous khusid and true believer. Yo minimize gratuitous Loshon Hora, that's as it should be.

The Bray of Fundie said...

I will say this. Though it is useless to indulge in alternative histories (what if the south had won the civil war, what if Hitler YM"S had been assasinated in 1933 etc.)I often wonder how different CB might look today had the Mashgiach never been ousted.

Although on a personal level he could be tough and abrasive ideologically he was very tolerant open minded and, like his Rebbee before him, noteh towrds customizing khinukh towards the unique strengths and weknesses of every talmid.

In RYH days CB had colored shirts and plaid jackets but it also had a smattering of langah payis and langah reklikh (including the recently indicted Admor Reb Naftali Spinker). It had elementary school dropouts and PhD.s. Today it has neither. Swept along with the rising tide of rightward-drift Charedi narrowness the talmidim today seem like mass produced clones.

I like to dream that had the Mashgiakh kept his shtelleh and his sanity things might've turned out differently.

The Bray of Fundie said...

That's what gets me; The idea that they'll use Chassidus to get the Koved and to make the boys feel good, but yet they won't teach Toras HaBesht,

I have a theory about this but I admit it's purely speculative.

IMO the reason that RYH left all his Khasiidisha sources unnamed and unattributed, using euphemisms such as חכמי העבודה was because he wanted to return Chasidus (or to use the term he coined הלכות דעות וחובת הלבבות)to it's pristine pre-Lizhensker roots. By that I mean before the doctrine of Tzadikism made spiritual supermen out of Rebbes insted of the teachers they were meant to be. RYH was an איש האשכולות but first and formost a teacher= a Rebbe in terms of a creator of talmidim, a molder of men. He wanted khasidus minus the mofsim, minus the cults of personality (although one developed around him anyway)and minus the idea that bitul and hiskashrus to the Rebbe ALONE without actually absorbing any of the Rebbes Torah and darkei Avodah were enough.

His ma'amrim were not fahrglotzta oig'n, khapin Malokhim, Toiraeh zuhgin. Unlike what goes on at a typical tisch, they wre not meant to inspire the audience with the Tzidkus of the oimer but instead to inspire them with the profundity of the ma'mar/concepts. They were to makhshava what a good shtikel Rav Chaim Brisker is to lomdus. Well organized, finely crafted presentations with a familiar gemora-dikah shakla v'tarya niggun. He didn't want to grant attribution becuase he didn't want the bochurim learning sifrei chasidus on their own or, worse yet, going to living Rebbes where all the personality stuff I described pertains.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel, regarding Toiras Habesh't, its well known that RYH based his Torah primarily on Sfas Emes Ishbitz and Lublin,and of course Maharal which the Tanya is based on 'mipi seforim zu Mahara'' in the hakdama as per mevueres.

So theres your dose of Toras Habesht.


Also, tragedy- the fact that the young CBers are running to Lkwd is more than a problem, its a crisis and the elemtary schoo ad mesivta are slowly being drained of quality.

The Bray of Fundie said...

But this is not unique to YRCB. Is the trend any less prevalent in TV, Mir OP or Torah Temimah? It is a mkas HaMedinah afflicting all Brooklyn Yeshivas equally.

Philly, Riverdale and South Fallsburg, to name just a few, are different in that they never fancied themselves alternative cradle-to-coffin Yeshivos Gedolos like BMG.

Anonymous said...

Bray- it isnt as much as a problem for them cuz they arent trying to build a community/chassidus like cb is, mir hapens to have an elemtary school.

The Bray of Fundie said...

As does YTV and YTT but they are all "bottom-heavy" with classes thinning out as the talmidim mature through the system.

Enquiring Jew said...

Enquiring Jew:

Tragedy:

Your argument, to boil it down to its essence is that since CB is matzliach it doesn't matter and it even proves that they are right.

I think the secular zionists make a similar argument with respect to EY. I mean the medinah is going strong for 60 years and they are in power so they must be right.
If the Brisker Rov were alive today I'm sure you would be telling him to bury the hatchet and see a psychologist. Besides for the MO I don't know of many ehrlicher yidden who believe that.

And by the way, the fact that the Yeshivish oilam does business with and in many ways lives off the medinah, in no way shows support for the hashkafah or hanhaga of the medina, but rather is dictated by practical necessity. So just being in business or even running a successful business doesn't mean your not morally naked and completely illegitamate. It just may mean that out of practical necessity people tolerate you and do business with you.

According to your thesis, hatzlacha is all that matters. So if you now found out that with all this gevaldige hatzlocho of CB, at the end of each day, RAS sat down to a meal with a shtik chazer it wouldn't matter because he's in control and is matzliach and evreybody likes him.

Well I hate to break the news to you. RAS's hegemony over CB appears to be totally illegitmate
and based on his defiance of open halacha. Did you ever here of something called a Mitzvah Hbah Biaveira. What does the Gemara say Ain ze Mevarech ela Menaaitz. I can't see where this kind conduct will ultimately be sustainable.

But I realize at this point that to you the only thing that matters is Hatzlacha. You really couldn't care less about the emes or whether this is right or wrong. Like they say might makes right. You must have a different girsa of the posuk "loi bichayil viloi bikoiach..." This is truly a very Yiddeshe outlook on things.

Brooklyn ave said...

Tzigs 'toras hachassidus'?
Why is Lubavitchs version anymore authentic than Sefas Emmes veoid?

Btw, every generation has it's test.
Apparently this generations test was not making what some elements in Lubavitch have done to their rebbe with their yellow flags, so we see that even the so called 'authentic' chassidus can leave you clueless, veulai aderaba veda'l.]
Herschel, I noticed that you have basically conceded in another thread that when it comes to Lubavitch you are a partisan hack.To me that basically means you know well and good the problems I have alluded to.

Anonymous said...

out for the count....this round goes to enquiring!

bpunbound said...

"minus the cults of personality (although one developed around him anyway)"

Hah, so which way do you want it Bray, he was a brilliant innovator or vainglorious imitator?

"Swept along with the rising tide of rightward-drift Charedi narrowness the talmidim today seem like mass produced clones"

Ah, here's to plaid blazers...a by-gone era. I think I still have one in the back of the closet.

"how many CBers of recent years have become full fledged hot shot doctors, attorneys (remember David Schick?)"

you boob, you're setting him up as a shining example of what CB produced????

besides, he graduated in '77 and WENT TO BROOKLYN COLLEGE. Is this indicitive of the trustworthiness of the rest of the post??

Anyways, from the list you gather, you're obviously still wet behind the ears, if you could leave out two greats WHO DID GO TO UNIVERSITY:

YM Kirzner, economist par excellance and Muvhak of the MARAN.

Shlomo Braunstein, superb mathematician, NYU alumnus and now menahel.

Let me also take the opportunity to confirm something that was mentioned earlier.

A very close friend who was learning in YPY in y'ene tekufa, from a Shpitz CB mishpocho, had a regular shift at the hospital during those final days. And he CONFIRMS those rantings that have been repoted as accurate. Whadda'ya think, the MARAN was already catching a glimpse of der Oilom Ho'emes?

Moshe said...

Bpunbpund,
I don't understand how somebody like yourself who claims to have attended Yeshiva Chaim Berlin, can say what you you said at the end of the post.I 'm referring to the mocking title you give R'Hutner.
I want to tell you something:I have no real connection to the Litvishe yeshivas so I'm not involved in the Lubavitch/litvish machloikes (I went to Vien and Nitra)but to talk so about a rosh yeshiva you had shows terrible middos.You have chosen to become a Lubavitcher and that's fine, but why this hate and zilzul?I hope you understand that it reflects poorly on your new choice.

Chaim Berlin tragedy to a few said...

Just a few responses to some of the above comments after my lengthy post:

First I must correct one of my most serious typos. When I typed: "So here's the zach, since the day RYD passed away, NOTHING dramatic has happened inside CB..." it was of course to RYH I was referring and not to RYD. RYD (Rav Yonason David) is alive and well and spends his time leading YPY, writing up his own hilchos dei'os seforim for publication, and visits CB in Brooklyn to deliver public ma'amorim in CB on Pesach, Sukkos and to attend the annual combined CB/YPY fund-raising dinner every December. He is also sometimes brought out by loyalist talmidim and their parents to be mesader kiddushin at their chasunas.

an anonymous said: "great great stuff...one of the best comments and posts in a while-"

RESPONSE: If you were addressing this compliment to me, thank you very much. Although it seems that one or two people below do not appreciate the work aspect I put into the post/s, and I am not asking anyone to agree with its contents.

hirshel tzig complained: "That's what gets me; The idea that they'll use Chassidus to get the Koved and to make the boys feel good, but yet they won't teach Toras HaBesht..."

RESPONSE: What is the point of this lament? Isn't Torahs hanistar something that is meant to be *hidden* (nistar)? Indeed Rav Hutner would praise his choice of the MAHARAL of Prague as a guide because the MAHARAL wrote "nistar beloshen nigleh" ve es bedarfed tzu zein. Should one then have teines on Rav Chaim Volozhiner that his Nefesh HaChaim was not explicit enough in its talk and revelations of the Kabalah of the GRA?

This is serious subject and one cannot overlook the tragedy of what happened with Shabtai Tzvi and how his open mis-use and preaching of Kabalah to the masses, coming on the heels of the ARI's and Rav Chaim Vital's popularization of Zohar-based Kabalah, almost produced a national catastrophe when Shabtai Tzvi turned out to be a falsher Moshiach and the dor took a nose dive.

After that, the RAMCHAL had to suppress his shita of teaching Kabalah and how his rabbonishe opponents burned his kesavim with zest. And finally, tzig overlooks the fact (or maybe this is his point) that in the Litvishe velt ad hayom hazeh, the shitas and the cherems of the GRA still mean something and noone in the Litivishe yeshivishe velt wishes to look and sound like Chabad or Breslov or any other Chasidus. That is why, there still is a split, (some may call it a machlokes or even a cherem) between Chasidim/Chasidus/mystics and Misnagdim/Lomdim/rationalists, and it was this DANGEROUS chasm that Rav Hutner tried to BRIDGE, as did Rav Gedalyah Schor zt"l to a lesser extent. That is one reason why RYH was held at some distance by the rest of the yeshivish velt, and that is what still makes CB a different sort of place with its open teaching and glorification of RYH's Pachad Yitzchok seforim.

In CB, by the way, it is compulsory for bochurim to attend RAS's motzei Shabbos chaburos on RYH's sifrei Pachad Yitzchok, which he unflaggingly teaches with eternal and mystifying enthusiasm.

u' n' pleaded: "I feel betrayed. I have absolutely no frigging idea who it is you're all talking about, what all the acronyms stand for..."

RESPONSE: Rather surprisng if you had been following all the posts here so far you would have had no trouble. But here are the main acronyms that I have used:

*CB= Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin, in Brooklyn, New York. (Built up by the late RYH. Now Co-headed by RAS and RYD as the highest Rosh Yeshivas, and where RSC was once upon a time the mashgiach for 12 years, from 1966-1978.)
*YPY= Yeshiva Pachad Yitzchok, in Jerusalem, Israel. (Founded by RYH and where only RYD is now the Rosh Yeshiva.)
*RYH= Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner. (Founder of the CB high school in 1936, the CB Bais Bedrash in 1940, the Kollel Gur Aryeh in 1956, all in Brooklyn, and who moved to Israel and who established YPY in Jerusalem a few years before his death in 1980, authour of sifrei Pachad Yitzchok and the man who fired RSC as mashgiach, installing another protege, Rav Shimon Groner zt"l, in his stead who held the post for 25 years until his recent passing.)
*RAS= Rabbi Aaron (Moshe) Schechter. Present Rosh Yeshiva and undisputed leader of CB. He is also a leading member of Agudath Israel of America's highest rabbinical counsel, the MGH.)
*RYD= Rabbi Yonosan David. (Son-in-law of RYH's only daughter and Rosh Yeshiva of YPY in Jerusalem who co-heads CB when he is in Brooklyn on his annual pre-planned visits. He, and his wife BHD, are the only ones who have inherited RYH's library and writings and are the only ones authorized in the CB world to publish any new writings emanating from RYH.)
*RSC= Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach. (The former mashgiach ruchani of CB, who succeeded Rabbi Avidor Miller zt"l. He was a controversial yet charismatic leader in CB but a few years prior to RYH's passing, he was ousted from his post which he held for 12 years. Following that he went to Jewish courts/batei din to open proceedings against CB for firing him and he seeks backpay. He also obtained written and verbal support from some now-deceased leading rabbis and poskim who urged CB to come and to finalize a Din Torah and bring the matter to closure. RYH, supported by essentially all his leading disciples opposed any appearance in Bais Din to settle RSC's claims and banned him from the community with severe shunning and embargos upon anyone who has anything to do with him -- except for a few faaily members -- CB and RYH had never officially or publicly explained to anyone why they chose to respond to RSC's complaints in the harsh way that they did. The little that is known, is derived from hearsay and anecdotal evidence suggests that RYH held that RSC, while being a great leader and one of his prize disciples, would nevertheless not be suitable to co-lead CB with RAS and RYD with RYH's absence since he would not submit to RYH's demand to become an "eved kenani"/"Canaanite slave" to the new leadership of RAS and therfore he would be too much of a loose cannon who may have had indepenedent ideas as to where CB would go in the future.)
*BHD= Rebbetzin Bruriah Hutner David. (The only child and daughter of RYH. She and her husband with whom she is very close in his work, have no children. She is a brilliant woman with a PhD from Columbia and is the founder and leader of an elite seminary for Jewish girls in Jerusalem, known as BJJ. When she was sitting shivia for her father, the noted sage Rav Gustman came to pay his respctes and reputedly described her as an "odom godol" a grreat person in fulllest Torah sense, one of the highest compliments for a scholar.)
*AF =Avrohom Fruchthandler. (Is the President of CB, YPY and all its branches. He is the "money man" of the CB complex and is responsible for its fiscal and financial stability, a multi-million budget. His personal and business wealth is unknown but according to some rumors, his family business Fruchthandler Brothers Enterprises (FBE) is a billion dollar business conglomorate mainly specializing in rental and commercial real estate in New York and beyond. He has built a network of many business and political alliances.)
*MGH = Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah (is the gighest rabbinical council of Agudath Israel of America, and RAS as well as a number of other CB alumni, such as the Novominsker Rebbe, Rabbi Perlow, and the Baltimore Rosh Yeshiva, Rabbi Feldman, are on this significant policy-making and decision-making body.)
*BJJ = (stands for Beth Jacob of Jerusalem, an elite school for post-high school girls mostly from the top non-Chasidik yeshivish families who must pass a difficult exam and pay very high tuition, to attend its one year program in Jerusalem, founded and run by BHD under the guidance of her father RYH.)

the bray of fundie said: "...second year BM or second lowest would be more accurate as Rav Chaim Kitevitz, Rav Pinchos Kahn and the Roshashivas kibbutz are all higher. I'm not even counting the chaburos of the sundry Roshei Kollel Rav Avigdor Kitevitz, Rav Shlomo Halioua and Rav Binyomin Cohn."

RESPONSE: Well put. My point was only that the Fruchhandlers are very well stationed in CB regardles of the angle you peek at them from. Also, AF and his bro' are in the SW corner (I said NW) but that is neither here nor there. They love the building they basically paid for and constructed, as well they should. Their family name/s are splashed all over it.

The bray of fundie also said: "CB tragedy- That was some exhaustive history that you gave shkoyakh. I must say they that it bears the signs of a tremendous khusid and true believer. Yo minimize gratuitous Loshon Hora, that's as it should be."

RESPONSE: All comliments are welcome, but I am not writing as a partisan, I assure you.

The bray of fundie adds: "...I like to dream that had the Mashgiakh kept his shtelleh and his sanity things might've turned out differently."

RESPONSE: You are correct. There are no "ifs" in history. But I wonder how many people here picked up on your line "...that had RSC kept his shtelleh and his ***sanity***..." as this is one of the big imponderables. I had heard from one of RSC's biggest fans how insulted he was to hear RYH say about RSC that he was "der meshuggener Yekke" and it is still baffling if RYH meant that literally, and that is one reason that they do not wish to enter into the ring with "a (literal) meshugenner" or that RYH sensed that RSC was just "meshuga ledaver" in the sense that he had lost all perspective and had become enslaved to a "maddening drive" that was causing him to insist on fighting his former Rebbe and chaveirim with such ferocity and tynacity ("tenacity" being one of RSC's favorite words, and understandably so, since he survived both Nazi and Soviet concentration camps during and after the Holocaust.) This is something that shall never be known.

An anonymous said: "...the fact that the young CBers are running to Lkwd is more than a problem, its a crisis and the elemtary schoo ad mesivta are slowly being drained of quality."

RESPONSE: My post was not meant to be a condemnation or a praise of CB, just pointing out that they are the victims of their own success. That they are able to produce bochurim and yungeleit who are welcomed by Lakewood, Mir in Yerushalayim, Brisk and other Litvishe yeshivas. That is a feather in their caps. So far, noone can recall more than one person from CB becoming a Lubavitcher on RAS's watch in the last 30 years (maybe that is why tzig is so eager to dig for dirt here, who knows?) The only one, was Tzvi the son of Rabbi Dr. Moshe Homnick who became a Lubavitcher when he went to Lakewood at some point. But at CB, not only do none of them become Chasidish, and definitely not Lubavitch, but if a Lubavicher comes into the building and tries to learn with someone, the Lubavitchers will be told to get out or they will call some bouncers who work for them as cleaners in the building. So you could say, the fate of RSC and Lubavitchers in CB is the same today, as RYH would exclaim "(varft zei) aroys fun danent!"
Dems de facts.

The bray of fundie speaks wisely again when he observes that : "...But this is not unique to YRCB. Is the trend any less prevalent in TV, Mir OP or Torah Temimah? It is a mkas HaMedinah afflicting all Brooklyn Yeshivas equally."

RESPONSE: It is not "CB's problem" because in America, there is no stopping the Lakewood juggernaught. But please note, CB noshes from this phenomenon plenty. In fact RAS has many grandaughters who took Lakewood husbands. In fact there isn't a CB anash family that does not have at least one or two, if not quite a few, eidims and sons who live and learn in Lakewood full time.

There is the greatest respect between Rav Aryeh Malkiel Kotler and RAS. Rav Malkiel's latest shver Tikotsky was one of RYH's top old talmidim, and RAS was the prime meraked and mesameach at the chasuneh of Rav Malkiel and his Tikotzky bride, after the successful heter meah rabbonim with the haskoma of Rav Shach. So you could say, that in some sense, CB and Lakewood are one big happy family for all their rivalries.

RYH taught by example that the CB oilem should respect Rav Aharon Kotler, but evidently that does not include going to Bais Din for RSC, which is why RSC has been spitting blood to no avail these past 30 years. It is indeed a great tragedy.

enquiring jew says a few things: "Your argument, to boil it down to its essence is that since CB is matzliach it doesn't matter and it even proves that they are right."

RESPONSE: No, this is not what I mean, those are your words that you are trying to put into my proverbial mouth as it were. What I *am* saying is that CB and RAS do not care and do not worry about RSC as much as RSC obsesses about them in his vain search for "justice." To the CB anash they do not even hear his "scream in the night" they are even beyond hearing him or his bais din ta'anos. To them he is at most, a walking ghost, someone who lives in a different dimension, almost like a delirious sheid that has lost its moorings.

Every now and again, a whisper may be heard that RSC should go to the kever of RYH and in front of a minyan ask for mechilah.

RYH had many fallings out over the decades with talmidim, but if they asked for genuine mechilak he granted it. Perhaps one of the most famous cases was that of Rav Gershon Weinreb, zt"l. He was in a league and a class of his own, even being one of the three official people allowed to chazer RYH's ma'amorim berabim (this was before the days that RSC was the mashgiach). Anyhow, due to all sorts of reasons, Rav Gershon had a parting of the ways with RYH and in his quest for nistar found hismelf as a mekurov of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. After a few years he became disatisfied with Chabad and chose to come back home to CB. It is said that RYH made him go on his knees and beg for mechilah (because this is how RYH viewed his now-famous need for "kovod HaTorah"), which he did and then all was forgiven and he was given a seat to learn with chavrusos in the CB bais medrash until his early petirah at the age of 52 in the 1980s. They even gave him a "state funeral" with his aron brought into the bais medrash. So there are ways to fix things from the CB way of doing things in this world, but it would not be something that enquiring jew could stomach to hear, that's for sure.

enquiring jew also insists on comparing CB to "Zionists" and RAS to a "chazir fresser" so it is hard to take him seriously when he hurls the vilest of slanders against parties that he wishes to debate, let alone to bring to justice in a Bais Din yet. Does he he really think that RAS as the representative of CB will rush to a din Torah now more than before when he hears that RSC's "supportes" (ands it's not clear if enquiring jew is a true RSC supporter or if he is just an opportunist using this issues as a cheap whip to lash out at some long-time imagined foes?) and that they are calling him a "chazir fresser" and that CB is no better than the Zionists in the eyes of the Brisker Rov? (By the way, it looks like Brisk is doing very nicely thank you very much from their yeshivas being in Israel where the sewage system and food supply is probably a lot better than what they had to put up with in di alte heim, and from the heavy-duty cash flow from supporters in the treife America. They have the best of all worlds. They get to enjoy living and learning Toiroh in Aretz while the balebatishe yeshivishe yankies from the good ol'e treifene USA pay for their every whim and need...I will not get into this subject with you, but you are not the final authority here...) But you need to cut out the nastiness and focus on real debating rather than throwing curve balls and red herrings.

Then an anonymous says: "out for the count....this round goes to enquiring!"

RESPONSE: Really? I counted at least three clear compliments for Chaim Berlin tragedy and not one for enquiring jew. Maybe you need to brush up on your arithmatic, and who appointed you the judge here in any case?

Finally, bpunbound states: "CBers of recent years have become full fledged hot shot doctors, attorneys (remember David Schick?) you boob, you're setting him up as a shining example of what CB produced???? besides, he graduated in '77 and WENT TO BROOKLYN COLLEGE. Is this indicitive of the trustworthiness of the rest of the post?? Anyways, from the list you gather, you're obviously still wet behind the ears, if you could leave out two greats WHO DID GO TO UNIVERSITY: YM Kirzner, economist par excellance and Muvhak of the MARAN. Shlomo Braunstein, superb mathematician, NYU alumnus and now menahel..."

RESPONSE: Sorry, but you are ranting and have not read what I wrote CAREFULLY, and you misjudge me to be a partisan which I am not. Good that you caught onto the David Schick line, because I was NOT using that as a "praise" for CB, which you thought I was doing.

I was pointing out that the place was producing hot shot "tycoons" over the years from all vintages. David Schick came into bloom in RAS's and AF's time and they were the ones basically who paskened for him that he should keep his mouth shut and go to jail rather than spill the beans. They are taking care of his kids and they learn in CB. The Schick family and CB is close. It is not meant as a complioment or a critique, just that CB knows how to find money people. Like with Chabad or YU or Aish or any good "empire-building" fundraisers, there are always shailos. And indeed, you should be taking this as a mark of my objectivity that I am willing to put forth even some of CB's blunderous alumni and not claim that they are all untarnished tzadikim. So instead of complimenting me on my ability to walk a tightrope and see both sides of as ituation, you accuse me of being a "boob" which to me is more hurtful than anything enquiring jew has said. Since from enquiring jew's responses I can tell that he reads my words CAREFULLY and even though he bitterly disagrees with everything I write he responds lefi shitaso. But you jump in, I can see from your words that you have NOT read everything that has been said here so far, you call me "wet behind the ears" and tell me that Schick went to Brooklyn College. Whoopie doo! There are still guys that went to Brooklyn College under RAS, he just slowly but surely put the screws on that. David Schick was RAS's and AF's creation and they had have had to deal with the fallout from his shenanigans.

Now as for Rabbi Dr. Israel M. Kirzner, the CB ideologue who helped RYH come up with the non-Chasdish marei mekomos in the sifrei Pachad Yitzchok, and who does not wear a yarmulka when he lectures to the goyim and NYU, he is not a protege of RAS, which was the point of the post you are criticisng. As for Rav Shlomo Braunstein, sure he is a gaon, and he is an even nicer mentsch, but he has never used his math knowledge. He went from being the CB night Mashgiach during the times of RSC, and was RYH's first pick to be the new mashgiach after RSC's ouster, but he wisely refused point blank and for which he was exiled on a low scale. But he did very well for himself when he became a maggid shiur at Rav Tuvia Goldstein's Emek Halachah yeshiva and then after that as Rosh Yeshiva of the Bostoner Yeshiva in Flatbush for the type of college-going guys that RAS had kicked out of CB and who were often RSC's closest followers (RSC had once gone to college, but RAS did not.)

Finally, after the passing of Rav Chaim Segal zt"l, Rabbi Braunstein was plucked to be the new menahel, but the person who is really running the show in the high school is Rav Michel Guzik, a talmid of Rav Chaim Segal, RYD, RYH, RAS, and married to Rabbi Braunstein's sister. AF and Rabbi Braunstein are also mechutonim, AF's son Binyomin is married to R. Braunstein's daughter.

Anyhow, As I said, the last post was not about who were the greatest PhDs to come out of CB, even though there was an earlier post with a list of "about ten examples" of RYH's disciples. This list that you are criticizing was about "ten examples" as an example of people with whom RAS now has a lot of pull.

Next time read all the posts and the the entire thread (yeah I know, it takes time and you're in hurry) BEFORE you call other sincere posters "boobs" and "wet behind the ears" but please don't project your sloppiness onto others, 'cause then you are the boob whose drowning behind the ears.

Anonymous said...

what rantings? pls. explain,

enquiring jew said...

Tragedy:

Just to follow anon 10:11, your comments have really turned into untillegible rantings. As much as I would like to respond to them, there is nothing to respond to.

Nowhere did I call RAS a "chazerfresser" or CB'ers "zionists". I made some very pointed analogies which because you have absolutely nothing to respond, your just rambling with all kinds of gossip that has no relevance to the discussion here.

Because your lost on the issues, your only hope at this point is to distract and confuse with your mindless banter. It's not working and you just making yourself look foolish.

I don't view this as a popularity contest but as a quest for the truth. Ultimately, you still keep coming back to your same thesis. RAS is popular and in control. RSC is not. OK. Big deal. Who cares?

Sadly, what your really saying is that nobody in CB really gives two hoots about RAS or Fruchthandler or any of this stuff. They are all just riding the winner, the gravy train as you will. Fair weather friends. If the tables were to turn somehow and somebody else suddenly emerged victorious, the CBers would dump RAS and AF in a heartbeat and go with the flavor of the month. Just beautiful.

I truly do not believe you are a CBer or speak for them, because even if they believe half the stuff you say, they are smart enough not to articulate this kind of lunacy in a public forum. I think you have single handedly set back public relations in CB twenty years. Why don't you stop while your ahead.

bpunbound said...

"I 'm referring to the mocking title you give R'Hutner."

Moshe,

I'm very sorry you read it that way, in fact I MEANT IT...HE IS DER MARAN, I did not write it facetiously..and I'm proud to tell you that a well worn set, der ershta druk of Pachad Yitzchok, which I've gone thru more then once (or twice or three times) sits in my seforim Shrank.

My point was that I was wondering if, in those final moments, he was mischareit on how shabbily he treated his (former) Chavrusah, particularly seeing how much 'he Noshed' from him. Perhaps it was because his (former) Chavrusah didn't abandon him in his hour of need, when he sat B'Eretz Tzi'Yah V'oyeif.

I believe, as I wrote in a post about 6 months ago and as CB Tradgedy points out (in a long-winded sort of a way), he did a tremendous job of bringing penimious hatoirah (CBT - the appellative 'Toras Hanistor' went out a few generations ago, you best get up to speed) to der Amerikaner Boy'as, and indeed created a new being, and yes, that's part of the animosity (or mistrust or distancing) by the greater Litvishe-Yeshivishe velt.

CBT,

I thought you we're just a Ma'arich, but now your turning into a Nudnik. So I will paste the entire patragraph:

"In CB they would prefer if everyone went into real estate and if not then take Aguda's COPE courses in computing. Neveretheless it is still astounding to see how many CBers of recent years have become full fledged hot shot doctors, attorneys (remember David Schick?), and compuer specialists in spite of the obstacles in taking courses at Touro at nights."

"in spite of"...I read that as saying the aforementioned "hot shots doctors and attorney" we're the product of the latter mentioned "Touro at nights"....of which, I repeat, Messr. Schick was not one of, but rather of a previous generation.

I also supposed, if I may continue to parse, that "it is still astounding to see" implies a vindication of the Shittah that first rate Ba'alei Eysek can be produced, even in an atmosphere that will only tolerate the fullest dedication to Avoidas Hashem (learning) with the most minimal of commitments to der oilom Ha'Gashmee (college), in which case neither the former nor the latter apply to David.

As matter of fact, it seems a bit cynical (or foolish) to even include mention of him, I would not even classify him a succesful criminal; talented, perhaps; succesful, I don't think so. I would sooner mention dear Shimmy A"H as the best CB could offer in that respect, as opposed to his low-life friend

"the CB ideologue"

That sounds rather derogatory...was he a talmud muvhak or not?

"and who does not wear a yarmulka when he lectures to the goyim and NYU"

Eh, my friend, I don't think you want to go there...in deference to Moshe, I won't elaborate..

"he is not a protege of RAS, which was the point of the post you are criticisng"

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and re-read your post. The list you compiled we're proteges of RAS?? Teichman and David we're already Mensh'en Far Zich 30 years ago. Nate may have yet been young but Ar'che Hoch was, to the best of my memeory, already out and on his way up the ladder when 'the change' was under way.

But you did preface with "Here is a sampling of about ten of some big current names that are heavily tied in with RAS and AF", so I will demure on that point.

In fact, on closer scrutiny (your finer points are hidden in all that 'wind'...please, some editing is in order) you make some excellant points:

"My post was not meant to be a condemnation or a praise of CB, just pointing out that they are the victims of their own success"

Agreed

"So there are ways to fix things from the CB way of doing things in this world, but it would not be something that enquiring jew could stomach to hear, that's for sure."

And how!

"But at CB, not only do none of them become Chasidish, and definitely not Lubavitch"

Again, that was Der Maran's brilliance, he packaged a product that could touch a chord but still keep 'em on the farm.

CBT, you apparently have been Mekabel the Mesoirah well and present in an articulate manner and with gusto (albeit tooooo long!); but I'm reading between the lines that you we're 'Mekabel it', it's history to you, and you did not get the feel of the rank and file at the time.

And so I repeat that, IMHO, RSC commanded greater respect, love and carried more gravitas and was therefore a threat. That was why he was asked to salute the flag, and when he didn't, was shown the door.

Twistelton-twistelton said...

"RYH had many fallings out over the decades with talmidim, but if they asked for genuine mechilak he granted it. "

And what about his falling outs with so many of his contemporarys, such as Rabbis Gordon,Snow, Shurkin, Pruskin, Solovetchick etc!!

enquiring jew said...

Twistelton:

Please don't bother Tragedy with the Emes. Tragedy is only here to dispense some candy coated version of reality plied by the faithful. It's filled with bogeyman, white knights and dark princes like some romantic fairy tale.

Yiddishkeit, Emes, Din, Mishpat, simply do not exist in this little introverted world that these people occupy. They exist in a complete moral vaccuum and they make up their own rules as they go along.

As you can see I've been trying to reason with him but it's a complete waste of time. He's immediately off to the races with his rambling diatribe's.

So be it. As it says. Haemes Yoreh Darko. The truth shows its own way.

Anonymous said...

I went to Lubavitch from '69 to '74 and then to Chaim Berlin from '75 to '79. Even 30 years later, when i walk by Lubavitch I feel a certain tug on my soul. When I walk by Chaim Berlin? I feel like I'm walking by PathMark (ie not much).

I recall RAS sitting in his little office, buzzing folks in, stroking his long white beard back in '78 or so. He struck me as phony then as he does now.

I recall the Fruchthandler boys as spoiled brats who brought in loads of Barton's candy (their grandfather, Stephen Klein, owned the company I believe) every day.

Anonymous said...

Guess what I ust discovered from an unimpeachble source! Tragedy is Avraham Fruchthandler!Promise!

Anonymous said...

Cant be, Fruchty cant write like that.

bpunbound said...

Nu, he hires ghost writers!

Anonymous said...

met a number of Gedolim over the years and could feel the kedusha emanating from each one. I didn't feel it when a ----------- (deleted) (RYH] grabbed my arm with the crook of his cane and farherred me.

Chaim Berlin tragedy kvetches said...

Thank you. I really will try not to write unless I really have to. All the criticisms and/or positive feedbacks are appreciated and a special yasher koiach here to our host who has been very patient with everyone, even with people he disagrees with.

I need to correct a mis-type on my part, but I guess noone was bothered by it. I typed: "*RYD= Rabbi Yonosan David. (Son-in-law of RYH's only daughter and Rosh Yeshiva of YPY in Jerusalem who co-heads CB when he is in Brooklyn on his annual pre-planned visits..." and of course RYD is RYH's son-in-law and he is the husband of BHD, not her "son-in-law" because BHD is married to her husband RYD and they do not have any children.

Here are a couple of rejoinders that I need to make:

Here is the full post by enquiring jew (EJ) and my RESPONSES to him:

EJ: "Just to follow anon 10:11, your comments have really turned into untillegible rantings. As much as I would like to respond to them, there is nothing to respond to."

RESPONSE: Now, now, while I may call what you say nasty and vile, I have not called them "rantings" as I at least see that you are a highly intelligent individual and it is in that spirit that I answer you seriously in detail, which you should give me credit for rather than dismiss my arichus with silliness.

EJ: "Nowhere did I call RAS a "chazerfresser" or CB'ers "zionists". I made some very pointed analogies which because you have absolutely nothing to respond, your just rambling with all kinds of gossip that has no relevance to the discussion here."

RESPONSE: I was responding to the upshot of your "analogies" and calling a spade a spade. As you have done at least twice already using the "chazir" analogy in relation to making a point about RAS, and it was to those very analogies that I was responding. And again, you accuse me of writing "ramblings" when it is you who does not respond to specific points and act in your consistently dismissive manner. You are very rigid. Are you a Yekke by any chance?

EJ: "Because your lost on the issues, your only hope at this point is to distract and confuse with your mindless banter. It's not working and you just making yourself look foolish."

RESPONSE: See, here you go again, you raise the level of ridiculing what I have said from "rantings" to "ramblings" and now it's "mindless banter" that make me "look foolish." So sure, suite yourself, ut it would have been far more productive, as poster bpunbound now has done, by quoting lines from my posts and then either agreeing, disagreeing or staying non-commital. Take a look at how he does it and maybe you will learn to be a more responsive and agreeable debating partner.

EJ: "I don't view this as a popularity contest but as a quest for the truth. Ultimately, you still keep coming back to your same thesis. RAS is popular and in control. RSC is not. OK. Big deal. Who cares?"

RESPONSE: Ok, as you wish, you seems to like to think that you have the monopoly on taking the moral high ground here and that noone can shine a candle to you. Who said anything about a "popularity contest"? because anyone who knows CB knows that they are not into that either. But I do see something important, even though you mean it at best as a backhanded "non-compliment-compliment" that "RAS is popular and in control. RSC is not. OK. Big deal. Who cares?" ...Which says it all, don't you think? Winner takes all (kol de'alim govar), and that IS a big deal, and people in the world do care, because nobody wants to be associated with a loser, even if he has five batei din who say he needs two million dollars of packpay to back him up. The world can be a cruel place sometimes, that is nothing new.

EJ: "Sadly, what your really saying is that nobody in CB really gives two hoots about RAS or Fruchthandler or any of this stuff. They are all just riding the winner, the gravy train as you will. Fair weather friends. If the tables were to turn somehow and somebody else suddenly emerged victorious, the CBers would dump RAS and AF in a heartbeat and go with the flavor of the month. Just beautiful."

RESPONSE: This is so silly that if anyone who knows the facts and the players in this case it would make them laugh their bellies off. What are you talking about? Becoming a Rosh Yeshiva or Chasidishe Rebbe is serious stuff, these are life-time tenured and unimpeachable positions you are discussing here. This is not a mickey-mouse game, this is the big time leagues. This is something that anyone in the yeshivish and the Chasidishe world knows. There is no "voter recall" or "recalled by popular request" of a Rosh Yeshiva or a Rebbe (and indeed that was part of why RSC was so hurt as he felt the same rules apply to a mashgiach ruchani, and that may well have been so in Europe for the Alter of Slabodka, but in the moderne America RSC lost out because he could not adapt to new political alliances and realities in CB with a new Rosh Yeshiva being installed. And like in chess, the King trumps the Knight or the Bishop. If you think this is fanstasy that it is you that is in denial and Disneyland.) And you really reach a low level of denigration when you can even inject an "analogy" of "go with the flavor of the month" when as we have seen ourselves the issues here have played out over three decades+ and they are still unresolved while the people who were installed in CB 30 years ago are all still there and RSC is still out in the cold after 30 years. So where in heaven's name do you come up with these retorts of "flavor of the month" and the like?

EJ: "I truly do not believe you are a CBer or speak for them, because even if they believe half the stuff you say, they are smart enough not to articulate this kind of lunacy in a public forum. I think you have single handedly set back public relations in CB twenty years. Why don't you stop while your ahead."

RESPONSE: And you are so right on many points in this last paragraph. I never claimed to be anything or speak for anyone officially. Give credit in a positive way at least and don't brush me off. I am just a blogger like you who hopefully has no agendas. What did you expect RAS and RYD to come online and start answering you in person? That they would hire a publicist? Dream on! RAS treats a computer as if it was avi avos hatuma and the Internet is probably one of the nachash hakadmoni's tentacles in his view of the world, literally, so don't flatter yourself to think that ANY official CBer is going to come here and answer anything let alone communicate with someone as hostile as you. Sorry bud, but I am as good as you'll get and you will have to live with that.

And oh sure, the owner of this blog tzig can somehow obtain from RSC sources and openly publish the original hazmones from batei din and a merciless letter against RAS, CB, the MGH and Agudah with bitter condemnations and that is not a set-back to CB hey? But If I try to present a more balanced, non-judgmental, and objective picture of the setting and backdrop to this whole tragedy, talking of real names and real people, and not judging everything with one mantra of one person, RSC, seeking justice that ignores his own culpability as having been part of the CBers in the first place and the many other personalities, events, ideas and histories that must be factored in for a comprehensive perspective to this complex tragedy. No, nothing has been set back here, only that a new low was reached that confidential bais din documents that were never intended for public circulation and certainly not for the purpose of committing a chilul H-shem befarhesia on such a global digital scale were published on the Internet. So that is just fine and dandy with you, but my meager few words you have the chutzpa to call a "set-back of 20 years" for CB, very funny indeed don't you think?. Yeah sure. Do you honestly think that people are that dumb to fall for that? I doubt it. And certainly I would certainly quit while I was ahead but would you mind stopping your constant loshen horas and chilul H-shem "leshem shomayim."

EJJ "Twistelton: Please don't bother Tragedy with the Emes. Tragedy is only here to dispense some candy coated version of reality plied by the faithful. It's filled with bogeyman, white knights and dark princes like some romantic fairy tale."

RESPONSE: Very funny. So now it's a "candy coated...romantic fairy tale" that I "dispense"? How quaint to be so silly and dismissive at the same time when you do not reveal that you have in your possession either the facts or the issues involved beyond repeating mantras like one liners as if you have been indoctrinated or as if you are at a public demonstration or something. Say something original for a change based on the facts rather than being avoidant by reducing your debating-partners to comical caricatures, a very poor technique on your part indeed. Oh, and you think that only you deal in "emes" and that real facts and real reports are not "emes" is very far-fetched when all you offer are generalized utterances as if from some automated center, like "HAL" the no-nonsense computer in the "2001" movie.

EJ: "Yiddishkeit, Emes, Din, Mishpat, simply do not exist in this little introverted world that these people occupy. They exist in a complete moral vaccuum and they make up their own rules as they go along."

RESPONSE: Sure thing. Only RSC and his late father new what was "Yiddishkeit, Emes, Din, Mishpat" -- nice joke. Umm, let me remind you that noone has the monopoly on "Yiddishkeit, Emes, Din, Mishpat" not you, not me, not RSC, not RSC or any of his former mates at CB. If the Navi says about H-shem "li hakesef veli hazahav" so then kal vachomer "Yiddishkeit, Emes, Din, Mishpat" belong only to HaKadosh Baruch Hu alone too. And who's "making up rules" here when so far noone has told us who gave the official psak to post and reveal the multiple hazmones and RSC's letter to Zweibel calling RAS an "apikores" on this blog?

You see, you fail to notice your own lapses but you find it very easy to hurl accusations at others who have had to live through this tragedy. Even to RAS and CB applies "al tadun es chavercha ad shetagiya limkomo" AFAIK.

EJ: "As you can see I've been trying to reason with him but it's a complete waste of time. He's immediately off to the races with his rambling diatribe's."

RESPONSE: Ho-hum, so now it's "rambling diatribes" is it? For heaven's sakes man, why don't you respond to some specific points like at least poster bpunbound does? And you contradict yourself because on the one hand you claim that I have "set back" CB's by 20 years and on the other hand you tell people that I am a "complete waste of time" so which is it? If what I have written can have such a serious effect that it would cause a so-called 20 year "set-back" then how could it be that trying to respond to me is a "complete waste of time"? -- either I am able to enunciate very important points, even though you see them as set-backs for CB, or it is "useless" to respond to me implying that no-one is home and that there is nothing of value to be had. (Yeah, I know, you would just like that everyone should agree with your neat little formulations of life, but you know, life is never that easy or simple because there is always the party-pooper phenomenon of Murphy's law.)

EJ: "So be it. As it says. Haemes Yoreh Darko. The truth shows its own way."

RESPONSE: Yeah, sure and by now it's clear that with you it's "my way or the highway" and you know, you would have loved RYH and even more RAS because then you could all find one thing to agree on and then go around spouting it like a mantra to the exclusion of all indepenedent and objective thinking and action. At least RSC was more broad-mided than you!

-----

And now for my next correspondent:

Dear bpunbound: Thank you for your second post which was much less harried than your first. Now I see that you took a little time to read what I have written even though you vent your impatience by now saying that I should write in a briefer way. Anyhow, most of your comments and points are really excellent and show that you know your subjects well here and that you are well aware of many of tragic dimensions involved. And it would be quibling to get into nisht tzum zach nitty-gritty talks here that could go on forever.

Just a couple of points:

You know, a lot of speculation has arisen since the passing of RYH in 1980 as to what he did or did not say and ramble about during his heavy state semi-coma and delirium resulting directly from the brain damage he sustained in the grievous stroke that struck him three weeks before he died in Yerushalayim on chaf kislev. Yes, he said many things that were very strange they say. Including some incomprehensible things to the effect that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the "Tzadik Hador" -- this was heard from a peron who met the Lubavitcher Rabbi Weinberg who gave the weekly Tanya shiur on the old WEVD radio station. He said he was told this from Rav Shlomo Freifeld. When someone went to RAS to tell him that this was being said in some Lubavitch circles he refused to discuss it in any way. When someone asked Rav Chaim Yitzchok Kaplan (now the top maggid shiur at YPY and RYD's right-hand-man, rumored to be the successor they are grooming at YPY) who was there at the time, his reply was "me ken zoggen as es iz nisht emes" -- ad kan devarav.

But the same sources report that RYH was saying all sorts of incoherent and bizarre things. He was quoting gantze Zohars and midrashim and Kabalahdikke inyonim they say. He was asking for people who weren't there and giving "instructions" for those not present. In short, he was showing all the dementia and hallucinatory symptoms of a stroke victim who was clinging to the last shreds of life left to him.

He did know he was departing this world, and when his kidneys stopped functioning and the doctors said he would not make it, RAS and a large group of CBers flew off to EY to be there and got there in time for the funeral.

So the scenaro around RYH at the time of his passing is not like Yaakov Avinu sitting on his death-bed, with all his faculties intact with with all his spiritual koiches at his disposal to make statements and nevuos that the Chumash validates and that all of Klal Yisroel accept as Toira! On the other hand RYH died a very sad and lonely death. There were only two people with him in the room in the middle of the night when his soul finally departed this world. One went to run to call RYD and tell BHD, and the ONLY person who watched RYH depart this world was the extraordinary Rabbi Dave Goldberg, lamdan, askan, mekarev, baker, and a very, very close talmid of RAS.

So all this narishkeit talk about RYH making some kind of death-bead "conversion" to Chabad somehow is baloney. The fact is that on a PERSONAL level RYH and the Rebbe ALWAYS remained close but they had what may be termed as a "professional rivalry" no less than Harvard has with Yale or Oxfor with Cambridge which the kleinkeppeldikke mentshalach of the hamon am just cannot grasp. In this spirit, RYH would listen to the Rebbe's talks on WEVD and what to say about them, and in turn the Rebbe davnded for him when during the PLO's Black September 1970 hijacking of RYH and wife Masha, RYD and BHD. But this was on a personal level. On the Hashkafic level and in dei'os there was an incontrovertable chilukei dei'os that no amount of "strories" from RYH's last days on earth will ever turn around and as RAS responds with stony silence and Rav Chaim Yitzchok Kaplan said az me kon zoggen as es iz nisht emmes will always stand.

Your final comment that: "And so I repeat that, IMHO, RSC commanded greater respect, love and carried more gravitas and was therefore a threat. That was why he was asked to salute the flag, and when he didn't, was shown the door."

RESPONSE: And I agree with that summation 100% and if you would have been following and reading all my words along the way you would have seen that I have said this over and over again. Indeed I have oft-quoted the words that were personally heard from RSC in his house when the tragic machlokes was first starting and people were wondering what the heck was going on and who to believe, since nothing was ever said officially by CB in any case, ad hayom hazeh. RSC stated the "salute the flag" issue in his own inimitable way: (said in his German-accented English/Yinglish:) "Der Rosh Yeshiva asked me if I would be an eved kenaaini to Reb Aaron, and I told him dat I ain't no eved kenaaini!" And neither he nor they have ever relented from this position for the past 30 years which is truly a great tragedy for the sadness, pain, and emotional suffering that it brought to many people.

bpunbound said...

CBT,

HAH, Dee Biszt Vert A Millyon Dollah.

You start with,

"I really will try not to write unless I really have to."

and then take off into a post that breaks the word-count record for this blog (Hirshel can correct me if I am Mi'Gazem).

Anyhow, I think we've pretty much beaten this horse to death.

But do correct me if I'm wrong, I am reading in your response that you also believe RYH probably did say what is reported, particularly given the Pareve protestations (or lack thereof) of those closest to him.

Now, agreed, one in such a condition could be expected to rant, but I wouldn't describe "Zohars and midrashim and Kabalahdikke inyonim" as "bizarre things". Epes Phun Zein Penimiyous Iz Aroiz Ge'Gasin in Zein Letz'ta ReGaim Be'Alma Ha'Dein.

And, BTW, it doesn't particluarly get me 'bent out of shape' by the way he handled any Talmid of who there was even a Shmeck of possible Chabad leanings....the first rule with RYH was it was "my way or the highway".

And, I'm satisfied to agree to disagree as to the motives as to:

- why he acted as he did vis-a-vis the Rebbe the last 25 or so years of his life and

- why he said what he said the last few days of his life.

Because in the end, its just speculation.

And... it will only aggravate and offend good guys like Moshe.


PS - I never used the word 'conversion', rather Charoto.

enquiring jew said...

Tragedy:

The purpose of these posts by Tzig is to raise the issue of CB's failure to respond to a Hazmana from Rav Moshe Feinstein. This question has gone unanswered by you because there is no answer. Getting sidetracked by all of the issues you raise serves your purpose of keeping everybody's eye off the ball. I'm not going to assist you in doing that.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Is Rabbi D Goldwasser a Chaim Berlin alumnus?

bpunbound said...

Who cares?

I don't think so.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"My point was that I was wondering if, in those final moments, he was mischareit on how shabbily he treated his (former) Chavrusah, particularly seeing how much 'he Noshed' from him. "

This I will say, when RYH was hijacked, Talmidim went to ask mechial from his (many) contemporaries (or their graves) for the wrongs he did to them

Anonymous said...

As an outsider nowadays to both Chaim Berlin and Lubavitch, I find it comforting that my feelings as a young 13-16 year old in CB are being confirmed: To the folks who run it, Judaism seems to have been nothing more than a business.

Perceptive kids like me picked up on it, left, and have never looked back.

Chaim Berlin tragedy in short said...

To hirshel tzig:

Nope, Rabbi Goldwasser never learned in CB and has nothing to do with the place. He is so not a CBer. I think he is an alumnus of Chasam Sofer in BP. Rabbi Goldwasser does claim to have been a close protege of Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt"l based on a couple of two line "haskomas" he got from him for some of his earlier books. But it's hard to imagine any real shoresh hanefeshdikke connection between such tow diverse people. Rav Miller the arch controversial non-politically correct hater of liberals and liberalism matched up with the goody-goody two-shoes and polirically correct Rabbi Goldwasser? Makes one wonder about everything else Rabbi Goldwasser claims.

To bpunpound:

Love your comments, you are a riot and quite a chochem. I would actually like to hear from you the full story of why you think that RYH "acted as he did vis-a-vis the Rebbe the last 25 or so years of his life and why he said what he said the last few days of his life." I would enjoy reading EVERY word you would write even if it was twice as long as anything I have put on here so far. And forget about "Moshe" here, who is here? Moshe Rabbeinu or Moshe Feinstein? that you are so worried about his reaction.

And finally, to my unbudging buddy enquiring jew:

You seem to have been under the illusion that you were owed some sort of obligation of an answer to your questions in only one way. Well, I did it my way the best I could, with sincerity, honesty and frankness, and all you had to do was engage me in a some decent dialogue. But you insist on behaving or demanding that CB somehow come forth and begin the proceedings of a din Torah bacause the until-now private hazmones and personal correspondence between RSC and the Agudah were openly posted on this blog and you seem to have set yourself up as some kind of "mashgiach figure" watching the little teivah of trouble float down the cyber-Nile of the Internet waiting for some kind of reaction or official response from CB to materialize out of thin air. Well guess what, as I have said, it ain't happenin' because if CB has fifed on RSC and his hazmones and michtavim from gedolim for 30 years, a path that was pasken'd for them by RYH himself by decree and example, they are not about to change course anytime soon. Go do them something. So you had at least a chance to get into a little discussion on the issues here with me as a consolation prize, but instead you chose to not just display your total lack of knowledge and insight into the world of CB and its history, personalities and Roshei yeshiva, but you also let loose with insults and deprecations that revealed your hostility, anger and total lack of objectivity.

enquiring jew said...

Tragedy:

So your answer to the question of why RAS and AF did not respond to R' Moshe Feinstein's Hazmanah is because RYH paskened they don't have to go. Al pi Halacha that's a joke. They are still Mechooyev to answer the Hazmanah unless the Bes Din itself withdraws it.

Bottom line RAS and AF are Mesarvim Ledin. Thats right, the Rosh Yeshiva and Chairman of the Board of CB are Mesarvim Ledin. And not Stam Mesarvim Ledin but Mesarvim Ledin to the Gadol and Posek Hador Rashkebehag HaRav Moshe Feinstein Z"l.

What a horrible Beezoyoin and Chillul Hashem that a Mossad Hatorah should conduct itself in this fashion. What message should the broader Oilam take from CB. That you only have to listen to Gedoile HaTorah when its convenient? What terrible Zeelosa Dibeidina has already come out from this? Why should any individual answer an unpleasant Hazmanah Ledin if CB doesn't have to?

This is the issue raised by Tzig's post, Tragedy. Nothing else. Tzig raises issues, new and old, that have to do with Emes. Thats the issue he raised and that I have addressed.

I won't play your silly personality games. All I will say in response to that is that I have never deprecated anybody here on a personal level or even questioned any commenters motives. I have severely criticized certain Shitas and conduct which are against Halacha, but not individual personalities.

You on the other hand, because the conduct and Shitas your trying to defend are fundamentally indefensible, can only play the personality game and seek to either question my motives "hostility, anger" or you intentionally distort and pervert my comments as "insults and deprecations" when they are clearly very well reasoned criticism of conduct, not insults to individuals.

So the only one engaging in tactics is you. It's the time honored tactic of attacking the messenger when the message is unpleasant or unpalatable. You fool no one. Why don't you stop the nonesense and stick to the issues raised here.

Chaim Berlin tragedy's new year resolution proposal said...

enquiring jew: You obviously don't get it.

Let me tell you something. You may think that Rav Moshe Feinstein was what you say he was, and at one time he may have been that, but RYH maintained that in Rav Moshe's old age, especially after Rav Moshe allowed access to himself and to his piskei din, and ultimately to the printed versions of that in his Iggros Moshe to be controlled and hijacked by his now totally disgraced sex-crazed grandson, Rabbi Mordy Tendler, who himself fired Rav Bluth as the one-time meshares of Rav Moshe (and RYH held that Rav Bluth was also not a simple parsha) and Mordy made Rav Moshe into his own puppet by acting as his tall body-guard, meturgaman, editor, and spokesperson, that it was clear to RYH and RAS that the Rav Moshe that once was, was no more.

You fail to realize that the Rav Moshe that came out with a letter for RSC (because Rav Moshe was a nice man who would not hurt a fly) was NOT the same Rav Moshe who we see in photos dancing at the wedding of RYD to BHD with RYH.

I think that Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Reuven Feinstein also know this, which is why they are now on the best of terms with RAS and CB and would oppose your point of view and what you are trying to do to create more machlokes that already exists.

You and tzig have got it wrong with a very immature and raw perception, shouting one line from the rooftops of this blog, oy Rav Moshe oy Rav Moshe, vos vet zein mit Rav Moshe's psak and the CBers who know of those years would retort: Rav Moshe iz shoin gevorn ois Rav Moshe ven ehr hot gelozt zein krummer un menuveldikker einikel Mordche dreien em a kup vi azoy ehr sol paskenen und schreiben di Iggros.

Time has proven RYH and the CBers right in that area and not the other way around (it took the RCA to do it though, finally) when some thought that RYH was being spiteful to Rav Moshe about Mordy as well the total dislike they had for the eidim Rabbi Dr. Moshe Dovid Tendler of YU.

I think the CB anash hold that basically after the petirah of the apple of Rav Moshe's eye, Rav Shisgal zt"l, that Rav Moshe never came back to himself after that (not to mention that Rav Moshe had to suffer the humiliation of Rav Shisgal's two daughters appearing topless in Penthouse magazine.) It all added up to RYH's perception, and he was probabaly the most astute judge of human character, that Rav Moshe had lost it somewhere as well, so RYH slowly but surely made it clear that it was the Chazon Ishm and from the Chazon Ish's sefarim and iggros that CBers were to look for Hadrachah and Daas Toirah. (RYH also moved away from an open identification with Rav Kook zt"l who had passed away in the 1930s, but he did it gradually and in a very bekovidikke way.)

Someone on this blog has also at one time pointed out that it was over the artificial insemination issue that RYH split with Rav Moshe, but that is not what I have heard. In fact it was farkert. It was the former CB mashgiach Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l who opposed Rav Moshe on this very question, siding with the Satmerer on it, and when RYH got wind of that it was the last straw of Rav Miller's antics that RYH could take and he told him to gei zich durch, and Rav Miller was smart enough to leave when he was shown the door and not to launch a thermonuclear suicide mission that so far is claiming the professional and personal life of RSC and noone else.

So RYH and the CBers were put off by the general state of Rav Moshe's shvachkeit and his defaulting to his grandson Mordy on virtually everything, the rebbetzin was already very old and weak, and its known in the higher CB kreisen that RYH held that anywhere it says in the Iggros Moshe the name "nechdi...Mordechai Tendler" that part of the Iggros Moshe are just batul umevutal and they may as well not exist. So that "pesakim" and "hazmones" from that tekufah are likewise highly suspect and may probably all be beteilin umevitalin lo sheririn velo kayamin...

Bottom line, RYH with RAS and RYD and the rest of the big time CBers held that they were no less of a bais din to counter whatever RSC claimed and that he was just a disgruntled former employee, who RYH himself labelled "a meshugenner Yekke" for his attacks, who could not come to terms with the fact and reality that he was fired from his job and that when he refused to be "let go" gracefully he was ejected with all loss of face. No apologies given.

You also do not answer the question and refuse to think about why did RSC refuse his own Rebbe? To the old-time CBers who had been with RYH from the early years it was long known that if the Rosh Yeshiva RYH asked you to "jump into a fire" you would do it. So why didn't RSC just accede to his Rebbe's wishes in the first place and take a one down position in CB (it happens all the time all over) instead of regressing to a terrible twos stage not befitting such a talmid of such a Rebbe?

So you see, this was and has always been an internal family feud that was very personal. And just as when family strife breaks out, a so-called "court order" is not what will solve the problem, and the equivalant of "court orders" that RSC got against his former Rebbe and chaveirim was totally out of line. (I just heard from a rov who told me that when he came to CB and RSC was the mashgiach, he got a long shmues from RSC "that RYH and RAS are exactly the same"! So go figure how he can attack people he thought were on the madreigah of his Rebbe.)

There is another solution here (can you think out of your frozen Yekkishe box?), and I have mentioned it before. That RSC can be persuaded to retract his 30 year old vendetta and ask for mechillah and drop his whole case (I know, tzig will have to find yet more things to duig up...) As a CBer himself he should know full well what that means. He can make arrangements to go to RYH's kever in Yerushalayim and in front of a minyan ask his Rebbe for mechilah, or alternately he can plead old age and infirmity and ask to have a meeting with RAS to agree that in front of a bais din hagadol of ten or so of RYH's talmidim, all people that were near and dear to RSC, he will admit his rebelliousnes and ask for forgivenes for the vast chilul H-shen that has resulted from his actions and responses.

Maybe you don't think of such solutions since obviously you have no clue why, and the depth of reason that goes with it, neither RAS nor AF nor any Cber worth his beans will ever come to a bais din that his been misled by one of RYH's talmidim who should have known better than to attack his own Rebbe like an ingrate (like RYH said "bonim romamti vegodalti vehem pashu bi") and who has now allowed the case to spread onto the Internet like a sick virus where it will do more harm than good to him and his family.

It's January 1st and RSC could make a new year's (lemisparam) resolution that will astound the world!!!

Enquiring Jew said...

Tragedy:

The Machon Lehoroh paskened that CB cannot come to BD based on the fact that there was an open Teviah on them from R' Moshe Z'L. Apparently, all of these Tainos that you just set forth were not given any credence by that BD. That was the BD chosen by CB to go against Veretzky so CB obviously viewed it as a reputable and credible BD. Once again, they paskened, al Pi Reb Moshe Zatzal, that CB cannot come to BD and was indeed a Moired in BD for many years. So an objective BD has heard and overuled all of your arguments. By the way, R'Dovid Feinstein Shlita told AF the exact same thing during the Veretzky story. So he also gave no credence to anything youv'e just said and in fact said that R' Moshe was never so angry in his life as he was at RAS for ignoring his Hazmanah. Apparently he had all his faculties about him and knew exactly what was going on.

Indeed, as we sit here today, CB cannot go Ledin with anybody. They cannot get through the door of any BD because there is an open Teviah from RSC. RSC on the other hand, like all other Torah abiding Jews, can take any other Jew to BD. Think about that, CB can't go to BD today, for any reason, because of the open Teviah, whereas RSC can. So while you would like to relegate this to the dustbin of history, in fact this has very real world implications today in 2008

How big of a Beezoyin is it that a Mossad Hatorah, has been Ubgepaskened that can't go to to a Din Torah because it is a Moired in the Godol Hador and a Moired in Beis Din.

Don't you see what's happening to you. First you have to be Mevazeh a Talmid Chochom and Marbitz Torah like RSC to justify CB's disgraceful conduct. Now youve stooped so low as to attack the Godol Hador. Wouldn't it be simpler to just see the obvious and say CB was and is wrong for not going to BD. This way you don't have to get into all the ugliness youve just spewed forth. I can't begin to tell you just how ugly and disgraceful your last comment was. To talk about R' Moshe in such terms. Gevald.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"(not to mention that Rav Moshe had to suffer the humiliation of Rav Shisgal's two daughters appearing topless in Penthouse magazine.) "

Rav Moshe was unaware of this, as I know for a fact. But thanks for airing this until know not such well known fact in your hast to knock down Rav Moshe

Hirshel Tzig said...

Tragedy

I must've missed that part about Rav Shisgal's daughters when I read your comment and allowed it to pass. That was not necessary. I should've deleted that line, and I expect an apology from you.

Sometimes that happens with long, long comments. Sorry.

Chaim Berlin tragedy's sadness said...

enquiring jew:

You keep on saying you like "emes" so why can't you handle ALL the emes and not just your little teeny-tiny sample of it?

Reality is ugly, and note that it was not RAS or anyone in CB who has now raised this subject and posted the private hazmones and the letter to Zweibel on this blog, so take responsibility for that please, and nothing I said was made up.

It is all pertinent to this complex and tragic case. You seem to think that the letter that RSC wrote to Zweibel is ok, when he calls RAS an "apikores" (when the whole world acknowledges that RAS is a gadol BeYisroel, and no-one but RSC and you it seems thinks that he is an "apikorus" chas vesholom), but heaven forfend that a greater context is placed on this messy and tragic picture to begin with.

RSC is not the "Talmid Chochom and Marbitz Torah" you imagine him to be. He has been dead wood these last 30 years, even with the production of his Maskil LiShlomo seforim and tapes which no-one reads or buys. In fact they've been out-of-stock at Eichler's for years (they report that RSC himself would bring them in, but that he has not been seen or heard from for years.) And his tapes are ne'er to be found. Maybe someone should help him digitalize them first rather than digitalzing his sick letter to Zweibel and the hazmones online.

So far, the only harbotzas Torah he is doing now, is being marbitz his tainos on the Internet with you as his chief peanut gallery it seems, and not much else. And funny how you buy into what was his final delusional state that he was this great "Marbitz Toirah" while the real harbotzas Toirah has been done by RAS and RY through CB and YPY as RSC sits in his darkened living room with six rows of empty chairs in his fake "Kehilas She'eiris Yosef" while he davens at the Young Israel of Midwood minyan around the corner.

So are you nuts? Who are you calling a "marbitz Torah" here? While you ignore genuine marbitzei Torah who are and have built up and control hundreds of Talmidei Chachomim many of whom have become maggidei shiur and Roshei Yeshiva in their own right.

Ok, so Rav Moshe was angry then at AF and RAS. So how many more people have been angry at RAS and AF? Plenty! Has that stopped them or made any difference to CB or to its growth or to anything? Nope! I have outlined some probable reasons in the post above why the CB leaders lost no sleep about Rav Moshe's words at the latter stage of his life when he was dominated by sicko grandson Mordy Tendler, feh.

As for going to batei din, that may have been RYH's style but it goes against the way RAS operates because he has never favored such options.

As I said RAS is a an acknowledged gadol beYisroel who dispenses Da'as Toirah and indeed he himself has been a dayan on Agudah batei din in the past 30 years, as tzig even mentioned in the Telz case involving the young Sorotzkin vs the Gifter crowd. So don't worry, RAS at this stage of the game does not need anyone's haskomes and dei'os while RSC needs a groise yeshua bekarov mamosh!

You also twist the case of Veretzky which was one of about as close as a "home invasion" as anyone can get. If CB had been a bunch of Italians the Veretzkiers would have been dead meat. So Veretzky should have hakoras hatov to CB and not be such begrudging and belittling neighbors.

Of all things, and of all the real estate in Brooklyn, Veretzky, a shull run business of non-entities decides it must have a spot in CB's lap. They bedavke must be sh'chenim with "mesarvim"? Now how crazy is that? Imagine if the Veretzky crowd went and got a piece of land next to some big Catholic Church in Bensonhurst that was up for grabs. How long do you think it would be before the Mafia would be called in to "solve" the problem? About ten seconds probably. So CB were gentlemen at least and gave it the good old college try to see if they could get the Veretzky crowd to find some other place.

Nu, nu, so the Machon Lehoraa wasn't happy. CB can live with that as they evidently are doing inspite of RSC and all the screaming to the wind of people like yourself. Ever heard of TEIKU in the Gemara? This may be such a empasse. Seems like only Eliyahu Hanovi will solve this tragic conundrum.

And you know, it was not as tzig described it that Veretzky was just talking nicely to Adelman Motors to get their land, it is known that there were a very active anti-CB group, some with ties to RSC who bedavka went out on this mission to poke CB in the eye by grabbing a chunk of real estate next to CB. Ok so they got their wish. Now what? Let's hope they can keep on paying their mortgage with no mickey-mouse, 'cause CB's got the rich uncle Abe Fruchthandler to back themselves up.

But you think it is altogether to the benefit of Veretzky to be next door to the spit and polish image of CB? To anyone who has passed both mosdos very often it is very clear that the brocha of "meshaneh es habriyos" can be said in comparing Veretzky's Katzenjammer Kids Brady Bunch boys to CB's shpitz yeshivishe bochurim.

The Veretzky kids come off as looking not quite oisgebakkene loose cannons and the CB bochurim are the paragons of perfection looking like the real young bnei Torah that they are. Veretzky made the mistake that a dollar store would make if it opened next door to a fancy exclusive gold and diamonds boutique. But that was there choice, so they have to live with it. CB meanwhile will wait for its moment to come no doubt.

CB has no need to go to dinei Torah when RAS can dispense DA'AS TORAH! Don't you get that?!

You say that RSC can go to any bais din as if normal people do that every montig und donnershtig. Unless you know something the rest of the world does not know. Who else does he plan to take to dinei Torah, bashmootz und bazidel, write ranting letters to major Torah organizations, let it drag on for 30 years and then to top it off, publish it on the world wide web?

Sounds like you are saying that he is toxic and radioactive and that it is best for serious people in the Torah world to stay far clear off him because he is into frivolous law-suits and just as he had no compunction in suing his former employers, after only twelve measly years on the job, he will sue the pants of anyone else that gets in his way. Is that the kind of person you are describing as a "Talmid Chochom and Marbitz Torah?

Looks like RSC would be more aptly described as a litigous, cranky, old rabbi with scores to settle and who has in his merit that he is a genuine Holocaust survivor who went through hell and perhaps as he got older started acting out his POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER by PROJECTING onto his former Rosh Yeshiva, RYH and onto his closest friends at CB all his REAL Holocaust woes and the murder of his parents and many siblings by the Nazis y'sh, with his troubles being multiplied by his wife's very publicly known mental breakdown. For heavens sakes man, what "reality" are you into? RSC had suffered more than any normal human being could imagine BEFORE he came to CB and he has had so many of his own personal tzores to carry that a lesser man would have crumbled from them into nothing. In RSC's case it seems he chose the way of dinei Torah to let off steam against the wrong people. It is H-shem he seems to be angry at and he will have to wait until after 120 to understand why it all happended to him but to pin it "all" on RYH, and RAS and CB is to bark up the wrong tree at the wrong address, with all due respect to the batei din and to'anim who got dragged into this without understnding the real comlexity and tragedy involved with all its dimensions. They, like the Veretzky shallow-heads just want to jump up and down and shout "down with CB" as if CB represented the old deep South or the KKK or someth'n, who knows, and then there is the factor of money, which will sadly influence many so-called to'anim and batei din bazman hazeh leda'avoneinu harabim keyaduah. So, just as RSC does, you protesteth too much.

Yes, this is a shocking and tragic panorama, but as RYH was oft-quoted as saying that "es iz do a fifter chelek tzu dem shulchan oruch vos heist sechel!" And in this scenario all your strashing and hell-raisng about who can and cannot go to batei din sadly, and yes, very TRAGICALLY, misses the entire core of the the RSC vs CB and CB vs RSC saga.

Chaim Berlin tregedy's comparison said...

Ok tzig, it is widely known that Rav Shisgal's daughters posed for Penthouse.

It was in the papers and caused a scandal at the time and it caused great anguish to Rav Moshe feinstein to have his grandkids in this kind of shmutz compounding the immense sense of bereavement, loss and the tzubrochekeit that he is known to have suffered from the death of the girls' father who was a gaon and tzadik yesod olam, zt"l.

I aplogize if this information caused any hurtfulness or harm but when a letter by RSC is published calling RAS an "apikorus", it is no less of a bizoyen, than mentioning any other bizyones that are part of the story.

Again, I am truly sorry if this has hurt you or anyone as this is only a very tragic, long, deep, frank and open discussion.

Anonymous said...

From what I have heard, the photos never appeared as a gvir paid off the magazine to spare the family the busha.

I was never really part of the yeshiva world and am long out of the asylum in any case. But am I the only one whose nose picks up, more and more, the stench of something rotten the more he reads Fruity's (ie Tragedy's) ramblings? For one, how can grown men, talmidei chachomim like Rav Miller zt'l and RSC be fired from their parnasah because they disagreed with the head-honcho (RYH) over something????

That is mentschlechkeit???? That is Torah???

Enquiring jew said...

Tragedy:

Your concession and total defeat on the issues is duly noted. Honorable people go down like gentlemen and take their losses in stride. Others completely lose themselves and in and in wild eyed fury, rant, rave and curse at anything within striking distance. The problem with those emotional outbursts is that they tend to diminish your credibility going forward. Adieu.

Chaim Berlin tragedy and disgruntled employees said...

anonymous said: "...am I the only one whose nose picks up, more and more, the stench of something rotten the more he reads Fruity's (ie Tragedy's) ramblings? For one, how can grown men, talmidei chachomim like Rav Miller zt'l and RSC be fired from their parnasah because they disagreed with the head-honcho (RYH) over something???? That is mentschlechkeit???? That is Torah???"

Mein teire: Let no one here be flattered to think for even one second that "Fruity='Tragedy'" because Avrohom Fruchthandler has better things to do than read blogs let alone take an hour or two to answer them thoughtfully.

Do you have any idea what "Fruity" can do in an hour? He could call four senators (speak to each one 15 minutes) or 6 congressman (speaking to each one for 10 minutes) or he could raise untold sums of money for CB, and when he learns, he is a big lamden in spite of his image as a good ol'e boy, he learns up a storm in the CB bais medrash that he built with his hard earned money or that he raised. So quit this total nurishkeit of thinking that AF is writing *anything* here because it is he that is staying away from the stench the most.

Now as for your feigned "hysteria" about the final fate of Rav Miller zt"l and RSC at CB, what's the big deal? RYH hired both of them, plucking them out of obscurity and nothing shtelles, Rav Miller was a soon-to-be-fired shull rabbi in yehoopitz in Massachusetts some place with two small kids, a wife and nowhere to go when he got a call out of the blue from RYH offering him to become mashgiach at CB which he jumped at and it made him quite famous, so don't worry, Rav Miller's reputation did just fine from his employment at CB, thank you very much.

And RSC was likewise plucked out of oblivion by RYH from being a high school rebbe (of tenth or eleventh grade I think) at the soon to crumble Yeshiva of Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn and offered him the mashgiach shtelle which he did *not* jump at like Rav Miller (maybe that's why he couldn't let go of it as easily as Rav Miller was able to) but RYH prevailed upon him, put all sorts of pressures on him, making all sorts of promises (which he probably regretted later on) and RSC accepted and also became quite a famous man from all this.

So either way, both mashgichim rose to the heights of fame and greatness ONLY because RYH saw the greatnes in each of them and built them up from the dust of anonymity. But they served "at his majesty's favor" as they say.

So you seem to overlook the flip side to being hired by someone powerful, that if that someone stays the boss, they can fire the people they hired. Yup, why is that so weird, that the boss can fire you? This happens a million times all over the world every day. People get hired and they get fired. Nu, so what. Yeah a few nuts come back with guns and shoot their former employers, they are called disgruntled employees and they are suffering from serious delusional psychoses that is of greatest harm to themselves. This is also something that is in the news from time to time, so why think that the RSC tragedy is a fault of "mentschlechkeit????" or "Torah???" when is just another case of employers letting go of troublesome and disgruntled employees.

Sure it's sad and tragic when it happens in big yeshivas that are supposed to be more spiritual, but life has it's way of intruding even when Odom HaRishon was in Gan Eden. But Barry Gurary fighting his uncle the Rebbe is also sad and tragic or the two Teitelbaum brothers of Satmar fighting with each other in the courts is even more tragic as it effects tens of thousands of Chasidim whereas the CB thing with RSC effects very few people in real life, It's just a great converstaion piece, as tzig sees and others bob in and out with comments but they really don't care about this entire tragedy.

So please let's keep perspective and no melodrama.

mendel the sheichet said...

I know this is a little off the topic, but being that this is where the pic is posted...It's obvious where Reb Shlomo got his charisma from. Just looking at the pic of RYT makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Chaim Berlin tragedy thanks Enquiring Jew said...

enquiring jew retorts that: "...Honorable people go down like gentlemen and take their losses in stride. Others completely lose themselves and in and in wild eyed fury, rant, rave and curse at anything within striking distance. The problem with those emotional outbursts is that they tend to diminish your credibility going forward. Adieu."

Hey, you are really funny. You know, take a look at what you wrote and you will see how perfectly it describes RSC's reactions to being fired by RYH.

Let's just apply your words *correctly* this time (via the parenthetical insertions): "Your concession (Shloimeh, now you know that you can't beat the Varshiver illui RYH and his handpicked memaleh makom RAS) and total defeat (because Germans are always on the losing side) on the issues ("issues shmishus" RYH made up the hilchos deios thing after he adapted them from Rav Kook, just a little) is duly noted (and now Rab Shloimeh enjoy applying for unemployment benefits, und ich gib nisht kein bank "notes", du herst?). Honorable people (if you are a CBer Rab Shloimeh, the world will always look at you as "once a CBer, always a CBEr") go down like gentlemen (azoy? Ich es p'cha un kneidlach mit meine hent, tu mir eppes Shloimeleh, du veist az ich hob nisht tzeiner) and take their losses in stride (sure just like you RSC, 30 years and still way, way, way, off stride...). Others completely lose themselves (the Carlebach tzores begin to tell, always tzores, the existential question of enquiring jew perhaps, why does the Eibishter always have tzores in store for Shloimeh the suvivor of hell?) and in and in (tzvei mohl "and in" verst shoin eiber bottel?) wild eyed fury (takke, ich hob gradde yeh gezen eppes nisht normal in deine oigen), rant (ich vel nisht batzolen deine rent!), rave (vos du vilst tantzen? in gantzen meshuga bist du?) and curse (vemen host du gesholten und gerufen a "apikores"? zog mir) at anything within striking (vilst machen a strike? mach a strike, ich ken varten oif eibig) distance (all like the letter RSC wrote to Zweibel at the Agudah, who knows what other great "naches" RSC has stored away in his attic? Let's hope the mice or the squirell infestation he once had have eaten up his immaculate Yekkishe filing system). The problem with those emotional outbursts (lein ibber deine eigene verter Shloimeh, azoy schreibt men tzu di Agudah?) is that they tend to diminish (ven vest di farshteyn az ich bin dein godol und du bist mein knecht, and eved kenaaini) your credibility (ich gib nisht "credit" un Avrohom vet nisht schreiben checks far dir) going forward (and so Rab Shlomo, you have been stuck in the mud for 30 years and you are still umemployed and dreaming that AF will open his piggy bank to you. Sigh, such is the case with delusions they make you have day dreams of being a gadol and a marbitz Toirah or whatnot and getting your way with everything). Adieu. (Aufviderzein, or however it's spelled.)

Chaim Berlin tragedy photos and meises said...

mendel the sheichet says that "...It's obvious where Reb Shlomo got his charisma from. Just looking at the pic of RYT makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside."

Hmmm, does that mean you like the semi-camouflaged shpitz-berdel too? You think it could catch on in Boro Park or Crown Heights?

Look, RSC's father was a great person and tzadik in all ways, but what is the use of draging his name and memory, as represented by this picture into such an ugly debate? Is this going to become about the gutte Deitchen (RSC) vs the tricky Galitziana (RYH) and the neie Amerikaner gedolim (RAS)? Indeed the phot and your commenst are gratuitous (meaning nisht tzum zach.)

This would interest enquiring jew:

There was once a cook in CB who had teines that something was not being done right in the CB kitchen. So he went to the mashgiach at the time, RSC, and complained to him that what was happening was not in keeping with the Shulchan Oruch, to which RSC replied that "around here (meaning CB) we don't go by everything it says in the Shulchan Oruch." He was obviously trying to make a point and teach the cook a lesson not to get too cocky and to put him in his place and not chas vesholom to belittle the Shulchon Oruch or that CB was remiss in keeping it (inspite of what you think) anyhow it's a weird story but there are people who heard him say it because everyone knew that RSC was from RYH's biggest Chasidim and would defend CB or RYH against any "cook" who would have the temerity to quote the Shulchan Oruch ib his own defense. That's how much of a CB partisan RSC was and was known to be.

And so, when the big fallout came between RSC and RYH (the jousting with RAS is incidental to the bigger drama, tragedy and questions) many people in CB who had been on the receiving end of RSC's biting comments (he is actually quite a cynical person, with all the tzores he has been through) and heard his defenses of RYH were glad to see the tables turned on him finally.

As one noted CBer is famously quoted as saying then: He who lives by the sword, falls by the sword!

enquiring jew said...

Tzig:

Tragedy has now foregone any pretensions of reason and logic and at this point is simply spewing forth bile and venom for its own sake.

On the one hand, I can see a purpose in hosting his comments because I guess they do demonstrate to the whole world the sheer depravity and depths that people sink to as a result of not following basic Halacha and/or having to support such conduct. It serves as a stark lesson and reminder to the rest of us.

On the other hand I don't think the purpose of your posts is to serve as a forum for hate speech but to stimulate intellectual thought.

Some blog hosters black list certain commenters because they don't follow the rules. Tragedy has breached the rules of decorum and civility with his comments about R' Moshe and others and continues to use this blog purely to launch ad hominum attacks on the bogeyman of the hour.

I am generally not an advocate of censorship and feel these are excellent forums for a free and open exchange of ideas. At the same time, like all good things, in the wrong hands they can be abused. I think there needs to be a balance between those ideals and enabling hatemongers.

I'm not telling you how to run your show; it's your show and you run it well. Just some food for thought.

chess said...

Chaim Berlin Tragedy:
You've done a superb job explaining the backround of Chaim Berlin and it's main characters.
It's unfortunate that Enquiring Jew, who means well, but is naive has no idea of the people involved.He also has taken the story ,a one sided one, obviously and one brought by people who are down right antagonistic to Chaim Berlin!I mean it's mind boggling that a guy would actually believe a one -sided story from an anonymous web site to boot!!!

I'm not taking a side, because I don't know the intimate details, what I do know is that R'Shloime unfortunately is the tragic one here! He has gotten stuck with this story for the last 30 years and been unable to go anywhere.This is a tragedy.What people who really care about him should do is tell him to move on, there is no way that this will be resolved be'alma hadeyn.

Anonymous said...

>So you seem to overlook the flip side to being hired by someone powerful, that if that someone stays the boss, they can fire the people they hired. Yup, why is that so weird, that the boss can fire you? This happens a million times all over the world every day. People get hired and they get fired. Nu, so what.<

In companies I've worked for, you only got fired if you were caught stealing or some other extreme character flaw.

And why are you comparing RYH to Barry Gurary? Has anyone tried to paint BG as a tzadek yesod oilam?

I'll repeat: Something stinks in CB, and that is why 28 years later when I walk by it my neshama feels like it's walking by a PathMark. And I don't get that feeling when I walk by Lubavitch on Ocean Parkway, which I attended even earlier.

Chaim Berlin tragedy makes 5 positive suggestions said...

One or two points:

chess said: "You've done a superb job explaining the backround of Chaim Berlin and it's main characters...This is a tragedy.What people who really care about him should do is tell him to move on, there is no way that this will be resolved be'alma hadeyn."

RESPONSE: Thank you chess for your compliments, I see that you have a better sense of judgment as to what the gantze meise is about here. And yes, in some of my upper posts, I said the same thing you are saying, that let RSC move on, one way or another. How long does he propose to keep up his Quixotic tilting at windmills and fighting city hall?

The one good thing RSC has done in the last 30 years is write his magnificent Maskil LiShlomo in great loshon haKodesh, and he has the tapes of his lectures that he once sold that have long been unseen, which is a shame since people love 'em, me included!.

Therefore:

HERE ARE ****FIVE**** GREAT SUGGESTIONS FOR RSC AND HIS SUPPORTERS:

1: Focus on publicizing RSC's classic Maskil LiShlomo seforim. Raise the funds to get them reprinted. Take ads in all the Charedi papers to let the velt know about these seforim instead of them drifting into the past because RSC doesn't have the koiches to run around since he is still writing his chiddushim for upcoming volumes.

2: Digitalize all of the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of tapes that RSC recorded and market them. He was even recording all his Chumash chaburos in CB on a tape recorder, long before anyone thought of such things. He was always savvy and reads the NY Times, so he knew what to do. His tapes are all in his unique Germanic-accented English and he has a masterful command of English and its vocabulary and uses words in most unusual and spiffy ways. Digitalize all the tapes and make them available on "walkmen" and the latest gadgets like those that can hold the entire Shas on a little gadget.

3: Create a website with a catchy URL and post and have the audio of his taped shiurim. Maybe you can get help from Aish HaTorah as to how to do this. RSC knows Rav Noach Weinberg since they were both in CB together, maybe he could help out an old friend with some eitzos. RSC's Towrah is a lot profounder than Rav Noach's "48 Ways etc"! Of course Chabad have been the world leaders in putting their Rebbe's words and video online, maybe tzig can put RSC in touch with the right people. Chabad is where the action is.

4: Translate the Maskil LiShlomo seforim into English, it should be a big sell. No doubt that it could be translated into Deutsch, RSC could do it himself, because there are today more and more German-speaking Jews since about 200,000 Russian Jews are thought to have moved to the new united Germany since the fall of the USSR. The Maskil LiShlomo could also be translated into French and Russian. There are tens of thousands of new Ba'alei Teshuva who drink this stuff up thirstily. There is no problem with haskomes because Rav Ruderman zt"l and Rav Chodosh zt"l gave their haskomes biksav to the Maskil LiShlomo's when RSC first published them. You know, this would create so much POSITIVE energy and who knows, mitzva goreres mitzva and only good things will come from it. But all this focus on the past creates negative energy. Posting nasty letters from 1993. Putting hazmones online where they don't belong. Sure post a pashkvil or a "gilui da'as" or a moda'a that is meant to publicized oif di gantze velt, but since when are documents relating to private bais din proceeding posted on the wide-open medium of the internet? May as well now ask that every bais din have a closed-circuit video hook-up to the Internet, it's so easy now with a webcam, like in many US courts that lets the world watch the proceedings on C-span channels on cable TV. So publishing RSC's seforim would be lot better than all the negative energy being generated right now, with consequnces that aveira goreres aveira.

5: Create a genuine foundation devoted to the teachings and the spread of RSC's books, tapes and ideas. Rav Pinchas Stolper, another big time CBer has already done so and is publishing many popular machshove seforim in English. He is using his time productively rather than dwell on the past and what happened to his buddy Lanner at the OU who went to to jail for 7 years like Yosef HaTzadik... When RSC concentrates on pure Torah teachings he is great, people are thirsting for PURE divrei Torah and not for the frighteningly divisive words of a cranky farkrochenner alter ba'al machlokes mit a kappote un a lange veise bord even if he has some justice on his side. So let RSC'S children, and his choshuve eidims with all their connections, the Rosh Yeshiva of Novarodok in Flatbush Rav Motti Yaffen, zol gezunt zein, married to the choshuve Dr. Elisheva Carlebach, who knows how to write and speak herself. And Harav Marmorstein and his chushuve Rebbetzin Sarah, who were both widely quoted in last week's MISHPOCHE magazine on the lead story about Manhattan's Upper West Side Orthodox community, let them all get together and instead of being mis'avel and spit fire and brimstone against RAS and CB, and by implication his own rebbe RYH which makes him into a kofi toiv, (and who are too fireproof and immune to such shenanigans by now) and let all of RSC's choshuve sons, who are Rabbonim and choshuve Balebatim, and all the extended family, let them all get involved in setting up the *RAV SHLOMO CARLEBACH FOUNDATION - For the publication and preservation of the writings, lectures and teachings of Rav Shlomo Carlebach* (They could take a leaf out of Rav Avigdor Miller's family that has been doing just that, publishing and building on his works, althouth they have not caught on that people don't listen to tapes anymore since there is newer technology for that and they too need to digitalize. Since Rav Miller was against the Internet they will not create a website, but now after RSC's most personal letters have been put online presumably he is ok with the Internet and thinks it's cool to publish on the world wide web to set up your own soap boax on it. Go for it Rav Shlomo! Give your family and followers the marching orders to REALY help you set up a true Toradikke zichron netzach rather than all thse bilbulim and havolim that help noone least of all you!)

Next:

enquiring jew now asks for censorship from tzig, how Hutnerian. You see I said you would have made a perfect protege of RYH and RAS because that is JUST how they act, if someone says a different dei'ah, shoot it down. That my friend, is how dictatorships work and that is why RYH got into the problems he did with so many people, you can't have it both ways, one minute act like they were your buddies from Slabodka and the next minute act as if you are the Emperor Franz Yosef and everyone has to hop the minute you step into sight.

Try a little free speech and democracy this is 2008 we are in and not 1708, we will all benefit from it in the long run rather than falling back to the familiar comforts of censorship, mind-control, party lines and the misuses of slogans etc etc. I will not go on more but I will say that if every open format followed what you said then we would all become victims to tyranny.

No doubt you are mature enough to live with raw data, nothing else.

If you can point out any obvious errors or falsehoods or mistakes please do, and I will correct them, but do not react by screaming bloody murder when it is RSC who is the one holding the biggest knife on this blog with the public release of volatile documents that should have been kept under lock and key or perhaps even taken to the grave. But no, now every anti-Semite on the globe with a laptop and access to the Internet, and there are plenty of them (even sponsored by Arab regimes with lots of oil cash to spare for Jew-bashing), will now use this material to build up their anti-Semitic caseloads of "criminal rabbis" so we should thank tzig for his efforts and guts for allowing a full discussion at least here (since on the Arab hate sites where this will land up, they will only publish your version of events, I assure you), so that since tzig is smart and experienced enough to see that noone can post just one side of a case, and it's actually a privilege and compliment to get some intelligent feedback from parties who disagree with you in a mentshliche non-hostile manner.

Oh and I thought you said "Adieu" in your last post?

Finally to the anonymous poster who said "And why are you comparing RYH to Barry Gurary? Has anyone tried to paint BG as a tzadek yesod oilam?"

RESPONSE: You obviously misread my post. It was RSC, the rebellious talmid of RYH, who was being compared to Barry Gurary, the rebellious nephew of Rabbi and Mrs. Menachem and Mushka Schneerson. So much for that.

And as for your question: " Has anyone tried to paint BG as a tzadek yesod oilam?" The answer is, you bet, even though pure Lubavitchers may not believe it. If you had been reading a now dormant blog called "mental blog" you could have read many accounts that painted Berel Gurary as a great person. Certainly as a child and young man, Rav Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn regarded Berel Gurary as his tzadikel since he was his only grandchild. Indeed, this blog right here, is called the "anti-tzemach" that was motivated to counter the views of the guy who ran the "mentalblog", tzemach atlas. So I don't get your question. This is an internal Chabad machlokes and for the FAMILY on the inside that was at the head of the movement, the pain and difficulties they suffered with Barry was as great as the pain RYH suffered with RSC. And yes, just as there are people who view RSC as a tzadik, their are those who would view Barry Gurary as one as well, otherwise why would there have been such a deep family rift since at one time Barry Gurary's mother thought he was fit to be a rebbe some day. But again, I do not wish to get into that chapter, just that there are problems with dinei torah and court case everywhere in the Torah world today, not just CB but everywhere.

That is why we need Moshiach soon!

Enquiring Jew said...

Tragedy:

Your strategy seems to be working. As you keep on going with all your Narrishkeit I'm sure everybody's going to forget about CB's status as a Mesarev Ledin. A few more really long posts about the history of CB and its colorful personalities should do it. Maybe throw in the history of a few other Yeshivos and Chassidus for good measure. Just don't try Lubavitch because Tzig seems to know a few things about them and you might get tripped up.

mendel the sheichet said...

I can't read this, dudes...can we get you all some finger pacifyers or something? For crying out loud - my finger almost fell off from scrolling by the time I got half way through (I stopped at that point, realizing it wasn't getting any better - just more of the same crap reiterated yet a different - and longer - way)!

It was like an argument between David Koresh and Osama Bin Ladin about the Chinese economy. I'm assuming you were all there when this happened, or did you get your info 4th hand from a source as biased as yourselves. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy discussions of controversial nature, but you people are just loosng your heads! Besides, it's quite obvious that the only ones who accept your "logic" are yourselves, so the super long posts are really a waste of your time. Seriously, it's just grown up kindergarden when we start saying things like "your saying that my saying that your saying that my saying that your acceptance of defeat is an acceptance of defeat is really an acceptance of your defeat"

Besides, with all the time you're spending on this thread - you're neglecting other Gedoilim and Tsaddikim that need to be dragged through the mud of Blogsville.

The Bray of Fundie said...

time to give this thread a proper intellectual burial.

Truth hurts. Lies and half truths hurt more. This series of threads has been one long unmitigated OUCH!

Enquiring jew said...

Bray and Mendel:


Whats the matter, filibustering is a time honored tactic in this great country of hours when you want to get evereybody's attention away from something.

I actually, totally agree with both of you; its been beaten to a pulp.

Tzig is really just giving equal time to the Litvikes. Who said Chassidim have a monopoly on a good fight. He's also trying to make the Chassidim look good; hey look what these Litvaks do to each other. I think he's been successful on all counts.

Anonymous said...

Tragedy! You will never beleive what I ust saw on an jazeera- their tope story is the RSC/ RAS battle it is all over the arab media. Bin Laden has released a tape abut it.

Arab's? Are you nuts?

Chaim Berlin tragedy Good Shabbos said...

To mendel the sheichet: No problem, after a long day of shechting chickens and beheimas it's understandable why you are too tired to read more than a few lines. Don't worry, Shabbos is coming, just put your mind to rest by thinking of all the geshmakke ma'acholim that will be on the table at each seudah. Hopefully you are up to four course meals that go beyond a little becher of wine and a single slice of challoh. Und shloff gezunt mein teirer, es iz doch a mitzvah oif Shabbos tzu shloffen.

The bray of fundie said : "time to give this thread a proper intellectual burial. Truth hurts. Lies and half truths hurt more. This series of threads has been one long unmitigated OUCH!"

RESPONSE: No problem, RSC has been walking around like the ghost of a sunken German Battleship for a while now. Like WWI and WWII this thread was started by the Germans, so what do you want from a single blogger who tried to stand up to them? But I agree with you, OUCH!

Anonymous said: "Tragedy! You will never beleive what I ust saw on an jazeera- their tope story is the RSC/ RAS battle it is all over the arab media. Bin Laden has released a tape abut it. Arab's? Are you nuts?"

RESPONSE: No I am not nuts and who said that I was talking about Al Jazeera?, that would truly ridiculous for *you* to assume that. Don't you realize that Arabs and Muslims blog as much as anyone else, and for anyone who has spent sometime online dealing with hate-sites that come from Muslims, there are a few that take special pride in digging up information about "criminal rabbis" such the one run by a guy who became a meshumad and runs the "Jews for Allah" site and he has a whole section for "Convicted Criminal Rabbis" (even if they AREN'T "convicted"!) and the same dude runs "RabbiWatch.com" and he is sponsored by Arabs because he uses that as a springboard to lure and capture unsuspecting Jews and turn them into Muslims, lo aleinu. So my point is that once something is posted on the Internet, you lose control over it because it is on the world wide web (the whole "world" sees it as it is "widely" spread like a global and sticky "web") and while RSC and enquiring jew may be naive enough to think that posting hazmones and private letters between rabbonim on even as nice a blog as this will help them achieve something in a bais din (and hopefully they are not just doing this to be spiteful and malicious) they obviously fail to understand that it becomes open property for anyone including sonei Yisroel, meshumodim, and anyone who wishes to throw mud at Jews.

Sure there are blogs like Unorthodox-Jew and Failed-Messiah that do accomplish something that some people may legitimately question, but they are not major rabbis like RSC who it must be concluded has allowed the most private of documents to be published online on this blog without realizing that once he does so it has repercussions and consequences over which noone has any control and that may result in more harm than good to everyone concerned, including the aggrieved party here who is RSC.

And finally to my single-minded friend, enquiring jew, what did you think of my proposals with the five point plan? to put RSC on a sound historical direction for the future rather than run around with his teines that have not gotten him anywhere these past 30 years beyond the satisfaction of seeing his own Rebbe RYH and former chaverim dragged through the mud for no better reason than he was let go after only twelve years on the job as mashgiach at CB.

Did RSC really like being mashgiach all that much that he has devoted the better part of his middle and old age into making such a stink and a notorious cause celebre over it?

RYH had to twist RSC's arm to take the job in the first place. He never got the respect he wanted all the time he had it. He used to say that when he became mashgiach he thought that he was expected to be the doorman, but then he saw that he was the doormat. And that was all said when he was mashgiach yet. He always had difficulty in dealing with RAS's rages at talmidim for coming late for seder, much preferring a more quiet Yekkishe orderly way of doing things, but it got him nowhere. He was never a fan of RYD or of BHD and would criticize their aspirations to imitate RYH's mystique. He would poke fun at BHD's blond sheitel (forgetting I guess that many Yekkes' daughters have blond hair too), he would utter very controversial things to talmidim that would enrage RAS and RYH. He famously asked his future eidim, Rav Mottie Yafen who came to learn at CB as a bochur: "Why do you want to come and learn in a place like this? which when RAS found out about it sent him into a rage against RSC.

Has RSC really missed all of the above and much, much, more in the 30 years he has been away from CB? Does he miss RAS, AF, RYD and BHD and the anash of CB so badly, that in pysochologiacl terms he has grafted himself onto their skins in a negative way?, because psychology teaches that when positive attention-getting and tacticts don't work then negative ones will work just as well and even better. All parents and teachers find this out about their kvetchy kids pretty soon!

Well, RSC, can rest assured, his name will forevermore be connected to CB (even though he only worked there for twelve out of its one hundred and two years, getting more billing than others who worked there even longer and noone knows their names nor cares about them either), even though on the new building they have put a sub-title to it on the outside: "Bais Midrasho Shel Harav Yitzchok Hutner" and the main steps and other doorways of the complex are dedicated to the memory of the late Alex Ben-Tzion Fruchthandler a"h the founder of the Fruchhandler dynasty and the father of Avrohom Fruchhandler its President.

So RSC can feel good, knowing that he has fareibigged zein nomen mit CB, if not from his cradle then certainly to his grave, and that he can sleep well at night for as many years as the Eibishter will give him tzu lange yorren ad meiha ve'esrim. Wow, he still has close to 40 years to keep up his war against CB, that, as I said, will probably tune this 30 year war into a near historial 70 year war or even a 100 year war. (If I recall from history, it was the old Germans who specialized in those olden day "100 year wars" until modern times when they invented and switched to Blitzkrieg. Tricky Germans, that's for sure. But it has never gotten them anywhere historically.)

But RSC will NOT get the satisfaction of closure, or "reparations" of millions from CB (ha!) the way he claims to want it in any bais din, because RYH and RAS have paskne'd not do it lefi their da'as Torah, and o CB almni, anas, or mebers of faculty will ever goes against that any time soon. RYH and RAS were and are the only ones who know and have the final responsibility for the decisions they made and the actions they took in confronting and dealing with RSC. You, or anyone else, will have to take it up with them PERSONALLY (well, RYH is no longer with us , so it's RAS that must be asked) and PLEASE leave me or any bloggers or people who sincerely wish to discuss the matter with you out of your single-minded jihad against CB.

Thank you very much, and have a good Shabbos.

The Bray of Fundie said...

There's something creepy about this. Like some zombie with half rotting flesh rising from the grave and stumbling around.

From the sturm und drang that he brings to the conversation "CB Tragedy" is obviously an old-timer, and a passionate, well-informed and opinionated one at that . Still bizman hazeh I'd say that fewer than a minyan of current bochurim and yingerleit in MRCB/KGA have any notion who RSC is and fewer than a mezumen have strong feelings about the tragedy. That bygone geshikhteh is about as impactful on the current holokh yelekh of the Yeshiva as the internal Yeshiva Politics of say, Telshe, circa 1922.

Among the best lines I ever heard form the mashgiach was this "We don't have a mussar seder here in Yeshiva. We have a daily 15 minutes of silence l'iluy nishmas Rav Yisroel Salanter".

Even though he is still b'khayim khiyuso amus"h it is really more for the Mashgiach's dignity than anyone elses that we all agree to observe an eternity of moments of silence likhvodo.

Just an idea.

Enquiring jew said...

Firstly, my apologies to the Shaichet. You sound like a voice of reason. I was hoping this was going to end but here we go again.

Tragedy:

The Shaichet offered you a Bikovidige exit. You should have taken it. Your most recent post was quite positive. You showed a little class. Now your demons have unfortunately taken you over again.

You defeat your own case everytime you launch into one of your diatribes against RSC. If you truly believed he was takeh so oiver ubotul like you say, why are you still so riled up about this.

Dale Carnegie used to say "nobody kicks a dead dog". If you take that theory to its logical conclusion, the harder somebody kicks the more they believe somethings alive. So you obviously believe, apparently more than anybody on this blog, and certainly more than anybody in CB, that RSC continues to pose an existential threat to CB, because youre kickin real hard and refuse to stop.

By the way, you seem to assume that Tzig was put up to this by RSC. I tend to doubt that. All of the stuff he put up was used in the Veretzky case and was already out there in the public domain. I personally think his angle is Veretzky more than RSC. I tend to doubt that RSC or CB have any involvement or even awareness of this blog.

So the only one chasing ghosts is you. Your living in this imaginary world of goblins and demons where your perception of what's really going on seems to be completely out of touch with reality. If you think about it, the only one keeping up the fight between RSC and RAS is you, and it's completely in your own mind, as the principals involved are all gainfully doing other things, according to you.

The points I've been making here are strictly Halachic points, talking in learning, as they say.
I continue to believe that CB is wrong for not going to BD, and as concurred by their BD, the Machon Lehoraha and by Rabbi Moshe Feinstein Zl and Yibodail Lichayim Rabbi Dovid Feinstein.

Your Teretz that RYH paskened that RAS and AF don't have to respond, is just Nisht Tzum Zach as they say, even without getting into the issue of Nogai Bidovor.

A Gutten Shabbos to all

Hirshel Tzig said...

Thinking that I was "put up to it by RSC" is simply paranoia. I never met the man or any of his children/relatives/Talmidim.

Chaim Berlin tragedy reasons said...

The bray of fundie misses a key point that by posting the letters that are quite lurid and brutal from RSC on this blog, any person, not just current CB bochurim, are free to read it. The hazmones from batei din and the letter from the Agudas HaRabonim have also now been made public for anyone to read, and many have and will continue to do so and no doubt it has been downloaded now and stored on countless hard-drives and is the conversation piece of many people, lomdim and all sorts, so it's sort of lame to ask for a "moment of silence that will last forever" on this subject when it's so up-front-and center right now.

If this subject is now being discussed and only RSC's side of the story is being foisted on the world here, then it behooves someone to get up and say something to balance the picture out begeder bemokom she'ein ish... And by some twist of the hashgochoh it has fallen to "me" as the someone who is not freaked out by blogs and knows the main parties of this dispute from the inside well and who saw this whole saga unfold over the last 31 years when news started to leak in CB that there was trouble with the mashgiach.

So you can't have it both ways that somehow someone from RSC side has released these volatile documents to be published on the world wide web on this blog in all their explicit and lurid glory with every speck of teine made very clear through the hazmones against CB, the letter signed by Rav Moshe Feinstein, and to to top it all off, the letter from RSC to Zwiebel at the Agudah that blasts the entire Agudah, the MGH, and everything else in sight for having allowed RAS arise and be annointed as one of the select members of the MGH, and then to blissfully wish that noone say anything to stand up to this chilul H-shem (I think that some may call it that, rightfully) and that we all somehow observe fifteen minutes of silence that will go one forever...

Don't you hear the screams of RSC in all this from over the last 30 years? And as I have noted they are no doubt linked to his earlier traumas at the hands of the Nazis that he never fully shook off and his personal woes that he has continuously projected onto his Rebbe RYH and his former choshuver chaver and fellow CB hanhala member RAS as he insists on cleaving to them through this negative attention. When just forgetting about them and leaving them alone and getting on with life that wouldbe a lot healthier for him.

Right now, bottom line, all this negativity is coming from RSC and noone else, because as you rightly have pointed out as far as CB is concerned it is very ancient history.

The summer of 2008 year will mark 30 years of the mashgiach's traumatic and shocking exit from CB and since then literally thousands of talmidim have gone through the CB system from nursery school to kollel and they no clue what this man RSC or this story is all about, nor do they care, because one of the advantges of youth is that they have limited vision, no interest in bubba meises and "history" and they would rather have a shtikkel Brisker Toirah to learn or look out for their creature comforts like the rest of the world by eating glatt kosher shwarma in Flatbush and wearing nice clothes etc.

The interesting question is why is this surfacing now of all times?

I do not mean Tzig as the owner of this blog, as we see he has more than enough subjects to keep his pot and oilem boiling.

One factor must the onset of the 30th "anniversary" of this horrible event. People get to think over life at milestone events. What does Pirkei Avos say, ben shloshim lakoach? That because this affair had a life of its own it comes back to life now like a chikadee to "relive itself" in a new generation perhaps? A kind of gilgul in one's own life. I think the thing you see rising from the deep must somehow or other be connected to what is going on in the heart and mind of RSC on a conscious and sub-conscious level right now as we communicate as the 30th year of his very public and humiliating ouster from CB approaches as after June 2008, his official table and shtender were removed from the CB basi medrash and he had nowhere to sit officially even if he physically came a few times after that, he had nowhere to sit, yet he still showed up. Fascinating stuff!

This is a somewhat tricky zone but perhaps, and I have given this some thought, like everything else here, it must be that RSC must have been aware that his memaleh mokom who RYH also had to twist his arm to become mashgiach a full year later after thje summer of 1979, Rav Shimon Groner zt"l passed away a year or two ago, and RAS did not wait very long, just a couple of months to put his own oldest son Rav Mordechai Zelig Schechter into the mashgiach slot once held by RSC and who Rav Moshe had specifically stated in his letter not to fill until such time as this whole matter would be brought to closure in a bais din. So that MAY be another interconncted issue.

Another issue may be that RAS is at the peak of his powers and popularity both in CB, in the Agudah world and in outside circles, and probably every week if RSC wishes to read the news in the weekly English MODIAH OR YATED he has to look at pictures of RAS in their "centerfolds" at this or that simcha or this or that event getting kibbud melochim while he (RSC) sits alone at home in splendid isolation waiting for some recognition from the oilem goilem which must eat him up alive.

Furthermore, now that the Internet is so pervasive and blogs are so common place, and the Agudah are speaking out against it, and in his letter he calls it "so much hypocrisy" for Zweibel tow write about "mishpat" if the Agudah appointed RAS to the MGH, so now this is another way to thumb his nose and feif on the Agudah for being "hypocites" to criticize blogs and the Internet when they still have RAS in their midst.

RSC is ever the Bismarkian Realpolitician, which is why he was (a) such a good mashgiach, and (b) WAS such a threat to RYH since he was able to think like a CBer in a cynical way. So that it did not take much for someone to convince him to allow the release of his documents that landed up here BEDAVKE on the INTRENET and BEDAVKE on a blog to point out befaryesia that the Agudah are still the same hypocrites today on the issues whether it's "justice, blogs or the Interent" who are they to preach, as they were in 1993, when they appointed RAS to the MGH and made themselves party to an "injustice," all in the view of RSC and this is his way of obtaining "justice" as enquiring jew kept on asking and to somehow feif on the world of Agudah, the YATED, MODIAH, and of course CB that they are "still mesarvim" until they settle the whole business once and for all.

But as RYH used to say to some of his hot-headed talmidim: "Du vilst halten milchome mit di gantze velt, du vest nisht matzliach zein!"

So much for my analysis.

But someone on the RSC side has commited a major blunder in the process by throwing mud at some of the most powerful men in the Agudah world with these documents now being in the public domain on this blog on the Internet that the frummer condemn like it was sam hamaves.

Anyhow, whatever the real reasons behind what has happened NOW, it is certainly not "me" who initiated it or who made the documents public on this blog for the world to see and as enquiring jew crowed to prove "that the emperor (meaning RAS, and AF, and CB, and Agudah and their allies) has no clothes" which has been an exercise in folly because "the emperor" bestrides the world like a colosus and is so powerfully seated on his throne and rules his subjects in CB so thoroughly and his influence over big chunks of the Torah world is so unquestionable that it is hard to fathom why the RSC people have launched this "tempest in a teapot" cyberwar that they cannot and will not win as it will only harm their cause and not produce the results of dinei Torah al pi da'as Torah, just a stoking of old passions in the hope of some kind of revenge

This is all about nekoma and nothing else.

That is why it sounds unhealthy, and not that "I" am responding to it, but not as a partisan unlike enquiring jew.

So sure, if the letters as they appear now on this blog are pulled and pro-RSC bloggers like enquiring jew take the whole thing off the table, preferably with a modest explanation and wishfully an ever so small apology (yeah right, but one can daven for nissim!) for doing such a reckless thing (and I do not hold tzig responsible since as he said a while ago "a little birdy" gave him these documents he is just doing what he always does), but the the RSC activists, wheover they are in this case, are the ones who have broken the rules and in doing so they are unleashing old demons long buried in the lagoons and stirring up hornets nests and causing sensationalism that will harm them most of all.

If you play with fire you get burned.

At best, this entire discussion should be viewed as the study of a complicated sugyas hachayim as RYH would call such a matter, and let's hope we will all learn something positive from it. That if you bring up teines and kitrugim against people you must also face the same against yourself. "I" am only trying to be an honest broker of creating a balance so that people understand that with RSC at CB it was not a one way street. He gave as good as he got, as we see even now, yet his supporters should let him know that the matter is getting ugly on the Internet and that he should call off his attack dogs for the sake of bringing about the "fiften eternal moments of golden silence" that we all seek.

Simply Jewish said...

Chaim Berlin Tragedy:

You confuse me. Orthodox Jews are obligated to respond to hazmonos to bais din. Period.

enquiring jew said...

Tragedy:

You repeat your absurd theory that this story was somehow initiated by the RSC camp. I repeat, your in fantasy land. You conveniently ignore the whole Veretzky aspect of this. This story was basically dormant until CB took Veretzky to BD a few years ago. The outcome of the Veretzky maaseh was very well known in many circles. More than anything else, that gave the whole RSC parsha new pirsum to people and places who had never even heard of CB. I know its been a few years but I see Tzig's posting of this, and Tzig is clearly a Chassidish guy, as a direct result of the Veretzky Maaseh and nothing else. After Veretzky all of these documents are in the public domain. There is no way anybody could keep them private anymore. The cat's out of the bag as they say.

So lets get this one straight. The posting of this story here in 2008 has nothing to with RSC period. It has to do with CB going to to a BD in the outside world and putting all this into play. Like you say "if you play with fire you get burned". Once you start something you never know where its gonna end.

But there is something I don't understand. You believe in every fiber of your soul, like a good loyal CB Talmid, that CB is right in every aspect of the whole story here.

Right for not answering the hazmonos al pi RYH.

Right in the etzem machlokes with RSC for all of the numerous reasons youve set forth here.

So CB has absolutely nothing to be embarrased of here. Evrething they have done from Aleph biz tuf is eisgehalten al pi daas toirah.

So why would you want all these things taken off the blog if CB's conduct is so justified and eisgehalten in all of this.

You should be extremely confident in the rightness and justification of your cause. You should be very pleased at this opportunity for CB and you to trumpet your Shittah in all its glory.

Chaim Berlin tragedy better than you or me said...

simply jewish asks: "You confuse me. Orthodox Jews are obligated to respond to hazmonos to bais din. Period."

Umm, simply jewish, all the folks in this case were and are a lot more "Orthodox" than you or me, so cut the phoney-baloney holier than thou nothing statements!

Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner (RYH), was the Rosh HaYeshiva of Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin (CB) and a leading member of Agudath Israel of America's supreme rabbinical council the Moe'etzes Gedolei HaTorah (MGH).

RYH personally, by word and and example, ordered/decreed/instructed/exclaimed/publicized/promoted/insisted/emphasized/pasken'd that he would NOT respond UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to the claims against him of his student Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach (RSC), anywhere, anyhow, anytime.

RYH must have known what he was doing. He knew RSC AND the rules of bais din better than you and me! If it seems puzzling to you, so this is no less than other sugyas in the Toirah that may seem puzzling to you. You won't die from it, as the Yiddish expression goes "me shtarbt nisht fun a kashye!"

RYH, by example and private instructions also commanded that NONE of his disciples, chiefly led by Rabbi Aaron Schechter (RAS), who succeeded RYH as Rosh HaYeshiva of CB), and Reb Avrohom Fruchthandler (AF), President of CB, should respond to any claims, in bais din or anywhere else that emanate from RSC. They were all once RSC's friends and they knew/know him AND the rules of bais din better than you or me!

RYH, RAS, AF, and noone in CB has ever issued an official "press release" or statement or explanation for their refusal to respond to RSC. Obviously they must have good reasons for doing this, look at all the flack they take for it, so they are willing to pay whatever price it takes, as they knew/know RSC and the rules of bais din better than you or me!

That is the situation, take it or leave it, and draw your own conclusions, at your own peril.

If you think you know the situation or RSC vs CB (or CB vs RSC) better and the rules of bais din better than the CB people, then take it up with them.

My personal assumption and advice to you would be to proceed with caution and that while I may not grasp the totality of the intricacies of this tragedy, I would hold back my judgment because from what I know about RYH and RAS, they knew/know RSC and the rules of bais din better than you or me!

So before you arrive at your own final conclusion, please take note that what "I" have merely tried to do with my relatively detailed responses and background information is to place this entire tragic saga in a somewhat broader context of other events in the world of CB and to convey how the side that RSC took on MAY have been thinking and why MAYBE they have responded and acted the way that they have, since they knew/know RSC and the consequences of dinei Torah better than you or me, yet they still threw him out and refuse to answer any calls from him. Period!

So honestly, to say that "Orthodox Jews are obligated to respond to hazmonos to bais din" is all very well and good, but we are not dealing here with just any old "Orthodox Jews" but with Torah giants. (P.S. They would laugh at you because they despise the label of "Orthodox" since there is no such term in Halacha. "Orthodox" is the name that was invented by Reform Jews to call Jews who opposed the Reform movement in Germany. Oh, and RSC came from Germany too...)

So what I would advise is that you re-read all my previous posts very carefully and slowly to understand who you are dealing with here and then to see if you grasp the complexity of the tragedy of what tranpired and if you then have any other questions, feel free to please ask.

But to say that "Orthodox Jews are obligated to respond to hazmonos to bais din" is kind of a "klotz kashye" because it misses the whole point here since RYH, RAS, AF and CB did not, have not and will not "respond" to anything coming from RSC at this stage, and they know the Toirah and its halachos better than you or me!

Simple Jew said...

CBT:

Surely you are not suggesting that Reb Aharon and Reb Avrohom are Uber Jews who are above the law? This is a very slippery slope indeed.

One need look no further than the Seven Noahide Laws to see how fundamental the establishment of, and adherence to, the rule of law is to any civilized society. Having given the six most basic rules necessary for a functioning society, G-d concludes with the obligation to set up an effective judiciary to enforce the observance of the preceding six laws.

Chaim Berlin, like Lubavitch, is a group that identifies itself as belonging to Klal Yisroel. Membership in any society, Klal Yisroel included, obligates the member to adhere to the laws of the society and subjects him/her to the enforcement of said laws.

Whether one likes it or not, responding to a hazmono l’din is a fundamental obligation of every single Jew. There can be no exceptions or there is no rule of law and without an enforceable rule of law we are no better than the idol worshippers of the pre-Noah world.

Chaim Berlin tragedy's limits said...

Simple jew, you make some interesting comments, but as I have previously said a few times, take it up with Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin and with RAS or AF. You can call the yeshiva in Brooklyn and speak with RAS, he is not secluded from the world nor is AF!

RYH, RAS, RYD, AF, and the official CBers abviously did not and do not regard any claims emanating from RSC as having any credibility in any way whatsoever, not Halachik, not Noahide, not civil, not criminal, not secular, not nothing. In fact they regard RSC, his complaints and his entire 30 year war against them as ultimately being "gurnisht mit gurnisht" and nothing else. Not even worthy of comment from their perspective. Needles to say, this only makes RSC and some of his supporters even more livid. Nu, nu, what can you do.

Have you read the possible reasons for CB's attitudes to RSC and the hazmones that he orchestrated on his own behalf that I have provided in earlier posts? I do nmt wish to repeat myself.

CB knows about the Seven Noahide laws etc better than you or me, and they know the rules of society as well as anyone else, yet they have unfortunately chosen to forcibly leave RSC outside their domains and spheres of influence leaving him like a lonely dog howling to the wind at night or barking outside your window to no effect. This pathetic state of affairs is not "my" creation or emanating from "my" imagination, it's the way it really is. That is why it is all such a huge and thorough tragedy of Shakespearian proportions.

That is why I say, if you really want real answers, take it up with them (RAS, AF and the OFFICIAL CBers) and see what they say, or you can also take it or leave it.

Perhaps all those who have the questions for RAS and CB should formulate and somehow publicize a polite set of questions for RAS and CB and ask that they be answered and see what they say. I have said a few times that I do not speak for CB or anyone, just for myself. If anyone has found what I have had to say helpful, as Tzig seems to have said a few times, and I thank him for having the objectivity and sincerity to post my words, ok, if not, you can't accuse me of not trying to add information and context to this complex tragic case of RSC vs CB or CB vs RSC (that is why I call it "Chaim Berlin tragedy"!) More than that I cannot do since I do not speak for CB, nor am I rov or posek, and I cannot provide any final or definitive solutions to this tragedy for anyone, so I hope you can live with that.

Simple Jew said...

CBT:

Thank you for your informative and level headed response. I do not have a horse in this race and take no issue with either side’s claim against the other. This may very well be a case of ailu v’ailu (or neither v'neither).

The only issue I can see is Reb Aharon’s and Reb Avrohom’s refusal to obey a legitimate hazmono to appear before a bais din for a din torah.

Their contempt of bais din is not disrespectful of their peer, Rabbi Carlebach. Indeed, they have every right to appear in bais din and protect their interests as strenuously as they wish even to the point of disrespecting their adversary.

By refusing to honor the hazmono they are disrespecting our Torah and every Jew since Mattan Torah. They are disrespecting every non-Jew who respects the rule of law.

The tragedy here is the sad dispute between people who should have been able to resolve their disagreements with dignity and in private. The travesty is Reb Aharon’s and Reb Avrohom’s shirking of their obligation to obey halacha and three millennium of sacred practice.

Gadlus in Nigla and Nistar do not obviate observance of same. As learned men both Reb Aharon and Reb Avrohom have a duty to set an example and honor the hazmono.

The Kiddush Hashem of these two illustrious Jews subjugating their egos to honor the laws of our Torah could well serve to undo the horrible Chillul Hashem their behavior of the past 30 years has wrought.

This is merely the simple perspective of a simple Jew.

Anonymous said...

>RYH personally, by word and and example, ordered/decreed/instructed/exclaimed/publicized/promoted/insisted/emphasized/pasken'd that he would NOT respond UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES to the claims against him of his student Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach (RSC), anywhere, anyhow, anytime.

RYH must have known what he was doing. He knew RSC AND the rules of bais din better than you and me! If it seems puzzling to you, so this is no less than other sugyas in the Toirah that may seem puzzling to you. You won't die from it, as the Yiddish expression goes "me shtarbt nisht fun a kashye!"<

Methinks the Emperor has no clothes on!

>But to say that "Orthodox Jews are obligated to respond to hazmonos to bais din" is kind of a "klotz kashye" because it misses the whole point here since RYH, RAS, AF and CB did not, have not and will not "respond" to anything coming from RSC at this stage<

Gotta keep that in mind in case someone ever wants to take me to BD.

Chaim Berlin tragedy this is not halachah lemaaseh said...

simple jew: Thanks for the comments and honesty. There is not much more I can add for you. As I said, neither RYH nor RAS and AF responded to anything from RSC, and that leaves the rest of the world bewildered and annoyed.

Obviously, RYH, and then RAS and AF were and are willing to pay the price for their decisions. All that I have done is to try to shed light on the over-all setting of the tragedy, and the mind-set and modus operandi of the main players, RSC included.

To anonymous: Don't be a jerk. I made it quite clear that I was trying give a framework why RYH, RAS and AF would not, have not, and will not play ball according to RSC's rules. They are not, and I am certainly not, advising you or anyone to learn from them because neither you nor I know WHY they have refused to go play ball in bais din with RSC, so your comment that: "Gotta keep that in mind in case someone ever wants to take me to BD" just shows that you are not listening to the broader discussion explaining this tragedy.

And by the way, I have no doubt that RYH, RAS and AF have a very good Halachik and human reason for not entering any bais din to settle with RSC. But because they have not said what their point is officially in a public way, noone is in a position to second guess them and certainly noone is in a position to draw any comclusions of halachah lema'aseh from them either in any way whatsoever. Yet, let me tell you, if you were an official CBer then you would be obligated to do it RAS's way, or face the highway if you were to revela that you favored RSC in way whatsoever. They have totally written him off, ke'afra de'ar'ah, and es iz nisht du mit vemen tzi gein tsum tish as far as they are concerned.

This is really a tragic situation of rabbinic lockjaw.

Simple Jew said...

CBT:

Thanks for your response. You seem to miss my point. Reb Aharon and Reb Avrohom are not ignoring Rabbi Carlebach, they are ignoring bais din. The hazmono they are ignoring is from a bais din (sent by no one less than Reb Moishe Feinstein).

It is not acceptable for a rosh yeshiva and the president of a yeshiva to defy halacha and say they’re willing to pay the price (in this world and/or the next). Their main purpose in life is to set an example for others to follow. By continuing their contempt of bais din for three decades they have set an untenable example to thousands.

They have no right to retain their social status while shirking the responsibility that comes along with it.

Chaim Berlin tragedy stalemate said...

simple jew: Whatever your views about RAS, AF and CB you are welcome to take it up with them and/or get the oilam HaTorah to go along with your assumptions about the consequences of RYH, RAS, and AF not going to any din Toirah with RSC in any bais din. From what I know of them, they are not "simple" like you, so if you would be open to it, what you would hear would certainly be more complex than simple, that's for sure!

So far it seems that RAS, AF and CB have more than enough of a following and respect in the oilam HaTorah as the tragedy of RSC vs CB (or CB vs RSC) is not on anyone's radar and noone could care less about this entire episode.

People who admire RAS and CB will not be discouraged by any of this and those who have always been negatively disposed to CB don't need more ammo and what happened with RSC or any outstanding hazmones that wish to extract 30 years' back pay on his behalf will also be nisht ahin un nisht aher.

So, as it's been for the last 30 years, as far as CB is concerned, RSC is very, very far from CB and as far as CB is concerned it's Shlomo Who? As for RSC's requests for dinei Toirah it looks like RAS and RSC will both end up in the oilam HaEmes before they settle anything be'alma hadein, and presumably over there the Eibishter will finally have the pleasure of sorting out and untangling the messy arguments, judging all the arguments fairly, and rendering a true FINAL judgment. That is why He is called DAYAN HA'EMES.

Stalemate. Checkmate. Teiku. Take your pick.

Simple Jew said...

"So far it seems that RAS, AF and CB have more than enough of a following and respect in the oilam HaTorah as the tragedy of RSC vs CB (or CB vs RSC) is not on anyone's radar and noone could care less about this entire episode."
---------------------------
CBT:

You make a valid point. This issue has quieted down a bit over the past three decades. You also, perhaps inadvertently, suggest the solution to this unresolved travesty, or tragedy as you prefer to call it.

The Oilam HaTorah is by definition a group in an eternal quest for emes and yashrus.

Hence, the defiance by Reb Aharon and Reb Avrohom of a hazmono from Reb Moishe Feinstein would never be allowed to stand in the Oilam HaTorah if today’s generation were made aware of this fact.

Ergo, there remains one thing to do.

No doubt a well orchestrated publicity campaign will persuade Reb Aharon and Reb Avrohom to remedy their error and finally honor the hazmono from Reb Moishe Feinstein.

The Kiddush Hashem of their belated compliance will no doubt hasten the geulah and inspire the Oilam HaTorah to aspire to greater heights.

CBT, the zechus you have for motivating others to publicize this “tragedy” in order to force its resolution will be immeasurable. May G-d bless you with all the blessings of those who help bring peace to Klal Yisroel.

Chaim Berlin tragedy Gut Chodesh said...

simple jew: Thank you for your confidence in me. I am not such a shtarker to take on RAS and AF, they are too smart and tough. Look at how much RSC tried and where it got him. In the past 31 years RYH, RSC, RAS, RYD, BHD, and AF and others have drained the koiches of others more than should have been allowed by a right-thinking person. The CBers (and I include RSC in this) can be quite a tiresome and tiring bunch. They like to hug center stage.

So I am not buying into your prodding me to start any sort of publicity campaign against anyone right now. Feel free to do what you think is right. I have done what I can to present honest information for the sake of objectivity and to help some people who wish to understand how the CBers think and function as accurately as possible, with minimal personal interpretation, to this entire tragedy, more than would have been expected from a lonely blogger.

Let the oilam HaTorah do it's share now. I have done much, much more than my share, I assure you.

Kol Tuv and a Gutten Choidesh!

Anonymous said...

I recently stumbled upon this blog. Quite interesting indeed. To an unbiased outsider, it certainly seems that CBT wins this hands down. His arguments are clearly more sophisticated, to the point, and honest. But my real question is, who is CBT? Obviously he is somebody with very very deep roots in the yeshiva, and somebody who is very much affiliated with CB ad hayom hazeh. He mentions certain things in his posts which show a tremendous amount of yedios in the yeshivas history. But when he writes “but the person who is really running the show in the high school is Rav Michel Guzik”, he is showing that he is still very much involved in the yeshiva and it’s surrounding hock. (As it happens, what he writes about the Mesivta is not true. Rav Michel Guzik is the S’gan Menahel and Rav Shlomo Braunstien is running the show in the Mesivta. Although it may seem that R’ Michel is running the show, it is not the case. If they really wanted R’ Michel to run the show they could have just appointed him Menahel after the petira of R’ Chaim Segat zt”l.) So who is CBT???

Anonymous said...

cbt is obviously an "older bachur" who is still around cb from way back when. A few come to mind...

Anonymous said...

Off the top of my head I can only think of one.
But what makes you think that it is a bachur and not a yungerman?

Anonymous said...

Keep working, nice post! Just the info I had to know.