Thursday, December 13, 2007

Gedolei HaWhat?!

After trying the CRC Reb Shlomo went to a B"D he knew they couldn't refuse, the Agudas HoRabbonim, UBeRoshom HaRav Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l. After all, Reb Moshe was the undisputed Godol HaDor in America and had attended the late Rosh Yeshivah's daughter's wedding and had gotten Bentshen and/or Sheva Brochos. He was held in high regard by all (except maybe Satmar) and would surely not be refused. But sometimes even the GH can be refused. Maybe it's the way they did things in East New York/Brownsville; you did what you had to just to survive, and going to D"T would've been the end for them. So they ignored and ignored until the Godol HaDor VeChaveyrov passed on, and the world was never the wiser.




Letter signed by the B"D of Agudas HoRabbonim demanding that RAMS and the President Mr. F appear before them within two weeks. Also, that YRCB retain the services of RSC and pay him his salary as normal. This is referred to in the letter by Rabbi Fried to the leadership of YRCB. They also were forbidden to hire another Mashgiach/Menahel Ruchani in his place. I guess that's one Psak that Reb Moshe was wrong on, eh? I think we can safely assume that the Council of Torah Sages of the Agudath Israel of America is in defiance of their fromer leader RMF simply by installing RAMS as a member of that Rabbinical body. Shein, no?







Rabbi Carlebach voiced his opposition to that appointment, and in a letter written to the honorable and venerable Reb Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, Esq. he voices his great displeasure. Invoking the names of former Moetzes members RAK, RYYR, and RYK only strengthens his point and increases the irony that the same group would go ahead and do that. I guess we can safely assume that the reason RAMS was only installed on the MGH after the passing of the above-mentioned members is because they would never allow it were they alive. It's times like this that makes one realize how irrelevant the group has become, and how its sole purpose now is to promote itself, doing more bad than good after all is said and done, Metzitzah B'Peh not withstanding. There's nothing wrong with an irrelevant organization to fold up after it's run its course. The wagon drivers did it, albeit reluctantly, as did the blacksmiths. It's not they don't have day jobs, the MGH members, they're all Marbitzei Torah and Oskim Betzorchei Tzibbur. The Roshei Yeshivah can go back to being Marbitz Torah and Shtelling oof Talmidim, and the lawyers can go back to negotiating 1031 exchanges or living trusts, or closings on real estate transactions. Real jobs, you know? just like the rest of us. If they have this strong desire to help out the community how about volunteering for Tomchei Shabbos or starting GeMaCHs.

53 comments:

Michoel said...

Now you are back to writing complete silliness. RYK wanted Rav Aharon on the Moetzes. You can not claim you are "just putting the info out there". You are commenting on it from a clear bias. "We can safefly assume blah blah blah..."

Hirshel Tzig said...

so when was RAS put on the Moetzes? was RYK still alive? was it only in 1993, 7 years later?

Michoel said...

He was put on the Moetzes in 1987 afte Rav Ruderman was nifter, and a few years after RYK was nifter. But I have heard that RYK held, that when there was room, Rav Aharon should get the appointment since he was m'malei mkomo of RYH. RYK held RAK in very high regard. Someone posted on an earlier thread all sorts of lashon hara about Rav Aharon. Do you know him personally? He is a holy Jew, a very great person. I don't know about the machlokes between him and Rav Carlebach. Just from your blog (not the commentary but the primary sources) it is clear that RSC seems to have a valid taaneh. But I certainly would be very cautious about how one srites about Rav Aharon.

Camp Runamok said...

Aaaiiieeee!!!! My eyes!!!

HT is channeling Shmarya Rosenberg!

Hirshel Tzig said...

please don't mention me in the same breath as him....

kasha foon tt said...

Wow!
Chaim Shoulson shem reshoim yirkov has new competition!
Interesting that both 'ate the kasha' in Crown Heights.
Sounds like the kasha is infested with deep,suicidal hate.

gidel said...

Why would Rabbi Carlebach have sought a Satmar bais din for the first hazmons?
One would've have thought that the natural state of events would be to go straight to Agudas Harabonim,no?

Hirshel Tzig said...

You'll need to ask him about that.

The Bray of Fundie said...

And you need to ask RAS and AF your questions. This is the point everyone is making. Just to post it is one-sided, skewered LH.

Hirshel Tzig said...

RIGHT, sure. They'll talk to me. They didn't talk to RSC, and they should answer some nobody Chabadsker?!

The Bray of Fundie said...

Well the mashgiach won't speak to Gidel either

ahron schlechter said...

how many chaim berliners does it take to make a minyan?
12 if you have RAS and RAF

LakewoodShmuck said...

the point being?...

Anonymous said...

So who gave you all of these documents?

Hirshel Tzig said...

a little bird.....

baalbatish said...

Wow! Holy Hazmonos Batman, you've found the smoking gun.
You should merge with UOJ.
RSC sounds like an MO Apikorus.
"...the Geulah Haatidah has been set back a million light years."

Rav Schechter backs Leib Tropper's EJF said...

Something that may have been overlooked here is a topical issue:

The very recent ban/issur issued by the BADATZ in Yerushalayim against the proselytizing of Leib Tropper's "Eternal Jewish Family' ("EJF") is also a big knock against Reb Aron Schechter who also happens to be Leib Tropper's chief rabbinical advisor and attended a few of the EJF conventions.

More needs to be said about how is Rabbi Schechter reacting nowadays to the blow he got from Rav Moshe Shternbuch's Bais Din (the BADATZ).

Hirshel Tzig said...

That letter was leaked by RMS and not the rest of the Badatz. They weren't ready to condemn it yet. Besides, I'm not sure R sternbuch knows exactly what the problem is with EJF, he probably just heard a bunch of hearsay.

Michoel said...

The real main RY behind the EJF is Rav Reuven and he and Rav Aharon seem to be getting along very well. When I was in Chaim Berlin, a friend had a shailah that Reb Moshe has a famoud t'shuvah about were he is makel (I don't want to go into the pratim but hameivin y'). Anyway Rav Aharon sent this friend to Rav Dovid for a p'sak and spoke about Rav Dovid with tremendous kavod and defference.

The Bray of Fundie said...

(originally posted in the Torah Never Forgets thread)I'm just saying that there's more than one side to the story. Everyone is excoriating RAS and AF yet no one finds anything odd about RSC having been pretty much adopted by RYH post-war turning on his friends and Rebbe after so many years of association.

If appealing for calm and even-handedness. If that makes me an apologist so be it.

Let's not conflate this with the Torah Temimah Scandal. We don't have a molester preying on small children here. We have a sikhsukh between Rebbeim, Talmidim and Khaverim. Sure it was ugly. As Shakspeare said (and RYH paraphrases him in a ma'amar) "Hell hath no fury like love to hatred turned". But it was more than just furious. It was complicated as well with lot's of grey areas. I suspect that, as in the case with most bitter divorces, there was plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.

Enquiring..If I were convinced that all the commenters here were sincere crusaders for justice I'd hold my peace . Forgive my skepticism but IMO the point is not "We need to get this stuff out in the open so we torah jews can have some real integrity" but yet another attack on the power structure and a further eroding of emunas khakhomim and kovod HaTorah. Why? becuase the zeitgeist today is that we are mevatel ourselves to no one. (Why do you think hefkerdik, psik reyshe v'lo yomus b'neekhusa BMG has 5000+ talmidim and counting while the Brooklyn Yeshivas, where there is actually a Mashgiakh and/or Rosahshiva to answer to, continue to hemorrhage talmdim? ) It is "fun" and oh-so American to crusade for the underdog.

I suspect that in an alternative history; had the hazmonos been answered the din torah been lost by the YRCB current hanhala and had RSC been running YRCB for the last 25+ years we'd be reading today about the horrible avla done to RAS and AF.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

" Never was RIH called to D"T, I guess RSC didn't want to drag him through the mud."

Not true. Rabbi Snow (a former magid Shiur in RCB) took RY Hutner to Bes Din. The Dayanim were Rav Moshe, Rav Yaackov and Rav Mendel Zacks. RY Hutner lost (not that that helped Rabbi Snow, as RYH did all he could to undermine the Psak). Perhaps that explains why he was not eager to return to Bes Din. I think Rabbi Shurkin took him to Bes Din also, but am not certain.

Anonymous said...

I went to CB mesivta during 77-78. Didn't know much about the inner-workings or history of the place, but it seemed like all the big machers, especially the Fruchthandlers and Danzigers, were creepy fellows. And practically each Rebbi was a cold fellow who basically took no real interest in us (at least those who weren't 'CBers').

One day, a wild-eyed, old man grabbed the crook of my arm with his cane handle as I was heading down to the lunchroom and started farhering me. Only later did I find out it was Hutner himself.

snag10 said...

"Such Avlah does not fade with time, it is rather like festering wound which eventually becomes cancerous"....

DID ANYONE HEAR THAT??

EH??

It sure did fester...and now it became famous on the INternet.

Thanks HT.

It's high time someone smacks Arni Schlecter in his tushy a bit.

yehupitz said...

A Rosh Yeshiva and President who have been put in total charge of a Yeshiva can't fire someone? I understand the violation of not coming before Beis-Din. But I guess my capitalistic streak cannot fathom that the CEO's of a Yeshiva wouldn't have the power to do what they did to RSC.

baalbatish said...

Rabbi Snow of Bethel/Young Israel Boro Park?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Rabbi Snow of Bethel/Young Israel Boro Park?"

An uncle I think

Anonymous said...

Bray:

Simple issue. There is a pending summons. Respond and defend yourselves.

baalbatish said...

Izzy Englander #15 of Porfolio.com's top givers. He gave $1.7 million to Chaim Berlin. Who's Izzy and why is he giving so much to YRCB?

http://www.portfolio.com/executives/features/2007/12/17/Top-50-Charitable-Foundations#page3

bpunbound said...

Anon Saturday, December 15, 2007 11:18:00 PM:

Are you class of '78??

Do I know you? Should I know you ??

Hirshel Tzig said...

it warms the heart.... a reunion of the class of '78 is about to happen right here!!!!

Rachil said...

Does any one know the details of the refrence to Reb Moshe calling Reb A. Kotler to a Din Tyrah ?

Anonymous said...

I think this is a bit too one side to take seriously. Tzig, you should know better than this.

bpunbound said...

Ah, Hirshel, such a sentimentalist!! Let's see, in '78, you were out of short pants by then, no?

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous 9:45

What's one-sided about hazmonos to beis din?!

BPUnbound:

we wore short pants later in life in those days.....

Anonymous said...

I was talking about Rav Carlbach's letter to Rav Zweibel. Come on, you can hardly put up that letter and state is being 100 percent factually correct without even knowing the other side.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

CB story is that Rav Gustman Zt'l told CB that they don't have to respond. Which is why (CB claims) a siruv was never issued against CB from ANY Bes Din

Anonymous said...

A good pint. Tzig, there was not siruv. Why did they not have to answer according to Rav Gustman?

arnie schlecter POET said...

Bray Boy you and hutner got it wrong it's from "The Mourning Bride" (1697) by William Congreve. And the complete line is "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,nor hell a fury like a woman scorned."

Enquiring Jew said...

"CB story is that Rav Gustman Zt'l told CB that they don't have to respond. Which is why (CB claims) a siruv was never issued against CB from ANY Bes Din"
-----------------------------------

The reason no siruv was issued is because Rav Moshe never issued seruvim period becuase he held it was like a kelallah of sorts. It has nothing to do with Rav Gustman.

Nor is anything said by Rav Gustman of any Halachic import because he had no jurisdiction over the dispute. The only thing he could have done was given CB a letter to deliver to Rav Moshe requesting that he withdraw his hazmanah for whatever reason. It would then have been in Rav Moshe's sole discretion to decide whether he would withdraw his hazmanah.

Rav Gustman never issued such a letter, nor would he have in light of Rav Moshe's position. If he had written such a letter to Rav Moshe, Rav Moshe would have paid no attention to it as he was very adamant about CB's requirement to appear before him in BD.

The proof is in the pudding. Machon Lehorah, a reputable Bes Din whom CB chose as its BD to sue Veretzky, issued its Psak essentially calling CB a Moired in BD because of their defiance of R' Moshe. If CB had a legitamate halachically acceptable reason not to go to BD why would Machon Lehorah have given such a psak.

Bottom line is that all of these CB excuses are nonsense. No serious frum jew ignores an outstanding hazmanah especially not from the Gadol Hador.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

"enquiring Jew" concludes: "Bottom line is that all of these CB excuses are nonsense. No serious frum jew ignores an outstanding hazmanah especially not from the Gadol Hador."

However he overlooks one very big point, that CB considers Rav Hutner to be THE Gadol HaDor and that Rav Schechter is likewise bigger than Rav Moishe. To CB , Rav Schechter is the "chad bedra" in America, and after Rav Elyashiv ein od milvado! So they are not answerable to anyone bazman hazeh, and hence Rav Carlebach's claims are meaningless to them. You may as well use all the hazmonas as toilet paper. He is just another Hutnerian who ran afoul of his Rebbe. They know that Rav Hutner said on him the words of the navi; "bonim romamti vegodalti vehem pashu bi..."

But there is another dimension to the story that everyone has missed here, and that is that Rav Carlebach was the official spokesman for Rav Hutner when his name was used to sign "beshem hava'ad" and it was not for nought that Rav Hutner chose him ("bonim romamti vegodalti" means that Rav Carlebach is a gadol created by Rav Hutner) as Rav Hutner knew his MAIN talmidim, all geniuses, and he hated mediocrity.

Rav Carlebach was one of the few select talmidim who were OFFICIALLY permitted by Rav Hutner to learn "Hilchos Dei'os VeChovos Halvevos" (the official name for Rav Hutner's derech hamachshava) and then, when as mashgiach of CB, Rav Carlebach showed that he knew his stuff ibber gut and could deliver the goods noch besser in his highly popular chaburos (he was the most interesting to listen to) that they chap'd a "pachad" from him -- what would be when Rav Hutner left this world and they would have to compete with the one person who was officially designated as the "spokesman of the ma'amorim" (his lengthy introductions signed with his name "Shlomo ben Harav R' Yosef Tzvi HY"D Carlebach" is printed in all the first prints of Rav Hutner's Pachad Yitzchoks) so they gave him the heave-ho after making silly demands on him that he should submit to Rav Schechter while Rav Hutner was still alive...as Rav Carlebach told people: "The Rosh Yeshiva wanted to know if I would be an eved kna'ani to Rav Aaron, and I told him, I ain't no eved kna'ani"! After that all hell broke loose in the basi medrash as they were mevze him left and right. But he took it like a gentleman and gavra and did not respond in kind. Instead he went to Batei Din and Gedolim, but to no avail, as CB just brushed them off.

Interesting that in Rav Moshe's letter/hazmoneh from the Agudas Harrabonim, he says that it's assure for CB to put another person into the mashgiach slot, well after a year they did, and it was Rav Shimon Groner zt"l who went through hell for 25 years, as he suffered though this position only because Rav Hutner asked him to do it. A slow suicide mission for the master... Now Rav Schechter has put in his oldest son as mashgiach and it's not going so good either... so this a tragedy that keeps on compounding itself because the air never gets to be cleared. properly with all the machlokes that still lingers. Too bad for all concerned!

And to prove that Rav Carlebach is the real thing when it comes to knowing Rav Hutner's Toirah, just read his hefty five volume "Maskil LiShlomo" set of seforim that he has produced in his years of exile from CB. Not one Chaim Berliner will ever hold a light to what Rav Carlebach has produced in kesav. Quite an accomplishment for someone who was set up for a fall and then attacked in the most vile of ways.

This tragedy put Shakespeare to shame.

Enquiring Jew said...

Chaim Berlin Tragedy

"enquiring Jew" concludes: "Bottom line is that all of these CB excuses are nonsense. No serious frum jew ignores an outstanding hazmanah especially not from the Gadol Hador."

However he overlooks one very big point, that CB considers Rav Hutner to be THE Gadol HaDor and that Rav Schechter is likewise bigger than Rav Moishe. To CB , Rav Schechter is the "chad bedra" in America, and after Rav Elyashiv ein od milvado! So they are not answerable to anyone bazman hazeh, and hence Rav Carlebach's claims are meaningless to them...
-----------------------------------

I appreciate your post as it is quite interesting and informative although not necessarily factually accurate in various respects.

That having been said, I would just like to make a few points.

In a different thread I pointed out that Rav Moshe, upon being advised of RAS's refusal to repond to his Hazmanah said that even Rav Aron Kotler answered his Hazamanh who is RAS to ignore it. I think Rav Moshe exactly addressed your point. Rav Aron Kotler was the acknowledged Gadol Hador of his generation and yet he complied with halacha and responded to Rav Moshe's Hazmanah. No matter who you think you are you still have to follow Shulchan Aruch.

I think this is really all thats important. All this other stuff is really besides the point. Go to Bes Din and you can raise all of these issues as people inevitably do in Dinie Torahs and the dayanim can then sort it out.

If you don't follow halacha you are not a frum jew; Prust and Poshut. If RAS did not put on tefilin or ate chazer would he be on the Moetzes? This is the exact same thing. This is why I continue to wonder about the collective standards of our organizations that are willing to overlook this conduct. I'm still wating for someone to enlighten me on this.

I think your description of this as a "tragedy" is not necessarily wrong per se but not quite accurate. The only reason I make this point is because the very description of it as a "tragedy" generally connotes an unfortunate situation caused by events outside peoples control. I just don't see that here at all. It sound's to me that CB's behavior from a jewish point of view, in deliberately ignoring a hazmanah and defying Rav Moshe's Ikul, is more accurately described as a crime than a tragedy.

Chaim Berlin tragedy said...

enquiring jew opines: "It sound's to me that CB's behavior from a jewish point of view, in deliberately ignoring a hazmanah and defying Rav Moshe's Ikul, is more accurately described as a crime than a tragedy."

And again it reveals how little he knows about the way Rav Hutner and CB view the world. To repeat, CB holds that by the time Rav Hutner was a zoken, he was bigger than Rav Moshe and bigger than anyone and that he was in effect the true RashKeBehag. Aai the world didn't see it that way, so too bad, the world has a lot of catching up to do from the CM point of view.

CB also regards Rav Aharon Schechter as bigger than anyone. From inside CB it was held that Rav Hutner was already mekabel that Rav Schechter was even bigger than himself. This is a key point.

That Rav Aharon Kotler answered Rav Moshe's call means nothing to CB, they consider Rav Hutner and even Rav Schechter to be bigger than Rav Kotler and Rav Moishe combined. The world may not accept or grasp this, but to the anshei shlomeinu of CB, Rav Schechter is chad bedara, and he need not answer to anyone.

As so far as CB is concerned, Rav Carlebach is a mored bemalchus and the halachic response to that is as close as ones comes to "warfare" and not by responding to dinei Torah. In this scenario a mored bemalchcus must be crushed and humiliated to pay the price for his rebellion against the lords he had once sworn allegiance to, and to focus on the din Torah aspect of it is nisht tzum zach.

And tragically it's still a sha'as cheirum because Rav Carlebach, to his credit as a diplomat experinced with this form of Realpolitik, and because he has many zechusei avos, with all his keen instincts of the ultimate zurvivor against the Nazis and the Soviet and the concentration and labor camps he endured during and after the Holocaust, has been able to summon not just the written Halachik responses (which he knows they will never respond to, he just wishes to keep their feet to the fire for the WORLD never to forget and to teach them a lesson never to fire a respected hanhallah member like that ever again) but he has displayed immense koiches hanefesh and endurance in this now thirty year old marathon tug-of-WAR.

Like all wars, it is a tragedy, and it can only be ended by a peace treaty or a ceasefire of which none is yet in sight, even after all these years.

Enquiring Jew said...

Tragedy:


I have been trying to keep my comments focused rather than engage in some kind of propaganda battle.

I think you are falling into a trap of somebody's propaganda by somehow trying to justify CB's conduct by attributing these grandiose and meglomaniacal notions to RYH and RAS. I'm not sure I agree with you that that was the issue. To me it looks and old-fashioned heist.

RSC had a standard Chazukuh on his shteler in the Yehivah. RAS wanted it all for himself. So he engineered this "Machlokes" between RSC and RYH where he ends up the winner.

Look who ended up with everything. RAS now puts his son to take over RSC's position. Doesn't that tell you something?What did RYH's own family get out of CB? What does the Fruchthandler family have in CB?RAS has taken over everything lock stock and barrel, as he planned from the outset.

He's ignoring R' Moshe's hazmanah because if he goes Ledin he will have to share and he wants it all for himself and indeed has taken the entire CB all for himself.

The rank and file CBers seem like a complete bunch of nitwits who have fallen for his little two-step as he methodically has taken over every part of the Yeshiva for himself and his family. So they put forth the nonesense you discussed. I won't dignify it with a direct response. All I can tell you is that to people in the real world that stuff is revolting.

I heard something else bishem Rav Moshe about RYH's conduct in this matter which I think further makes the point. He said on RYH "Als vus er hut hut er foon dinei torah's in ven me rooft em koomt er nisht" [Evreything he has he got from din torah's but when he is called he doesn't come"].

RYH was no newcomer to BD. Apparently, his whole hegemony over CB was only acheived through Din Torah's with Shurkin and others. Indeed Veretzky is a great example of CB being very proactive in pursuing their rights in BD. So your proposition that CB and RYH and RAS are too big to go Ledin is very wrong. They are acutely aware of BD and have used it at every turn to acheive their goals. They simply concluded that they will lose here so they decided not to go. Nothing fancy, just old fashioned Mesarvim.

Chaim Berlin tragedy responds said...

Question for enquiring jew: How many of RYH's talmidim have you met and gotten to know over the years? This is a valid question since from the way you are writing about them, you do not reveal a particularly good grasp of the whole CB gesheft.

enquring jew had responded: "I think you are falling into a trap of somebody's propaganda by somehow trying to justify CB's conduct by attributing these grandiose and meglomaniacal notions to RYH and RAS. etc" and ends: "Nothing fancy, just old fashioned Mesarvim."

Ok, so they are mesarvim from your POV and even bidei shomayim it may be so, but then what? CB is still very much in the here and now big time. They dominate Agudath Israel in the USA through RAS's "Da'as Torah" and Fruchhandler's prestige and pull with every big-time gevir in America (And of course, this is something that RSC condemns and eschews.)

RAS helped to put Rav Dovid Feinstein on the Moetzes recently so how bad can things be between Rav Dovid Feinstein's Bais Din (as the continuation of his father's) and that of RAS and CB? The whole Torah world is running to meet and greet RAS and it's known that Rav Shach zt'l and ybd"l Rav Elyashiv have taken RAS very seriously all along. They would surely not bother with "simple mesarvim" so there must be more to the total picture here than meets the naked eye. So as the famous commercial once asked: "Where's the (hopefully glatt kosher) beef?"

If all enquiring jew sees in the previous post is symptoms of "grandiosity" and "megalomania" then it's very difficult to converse with him because *grandiosity* and *mega-drama* was the coin of the realm in CB and very much part of the Hutnerian way. Had he ever attended one of Rav Hutner's Sukkos, or Simchas Torah, or Purim mesibos and ma'amorim (on Purim a professional ten piece band with the loudest instruments being brought into the Bais Medrash) as CB is transformed into a Chasidishe tish with a Rebbe/RYH/RAS at its helm, it would be obvious that CB under RYH thrived on grandiosity and revelled in his "gadlus" (which to an outsider may seem like "megalomania".) Grandiosity of thought, speech and action, and even in bodily, Rav Hutner was big and the CB anash all had explanations and rationalizations for every tenuah and oisdruk, just like for a rebbe! To attribute "ordinaryness" to RH and CB is to hurl the greatest insult at them. And if they were so ordinary, they would not be so feared and stir so much controversy.

Other assertions by enquiring jew also reveal how he lacks basic facts and inside knowledge about CB, Booklyn's oldest yeshiva that preceded RYH's domination of it around 1935/1936 when he was appointed high school menahel of CB and builds it up to a bais medrash in 1940 and then with a Kollel Gur Aryeh in 1956.

At any rate, as a matter of fact, sources close to RSC have asserted that the real mastermind of RSC's ouster was Rav Hutner's son-in-law, the chasane debei nesiah, Rav Yonason David (RYD). From around 1966 (until his exit in 1978) he formed the original triumvirate that ruled CB, the other two being RAS and RSC (after the departure of Rav Avigdor Miller around 1965), with RYH as the rosh yeshiva emeritus. By 70 RYH was in great declining health, rushing to write and complete his magnum opus the ten-volume sifrei Pachad Yitzchok, and with great pland to return to EY.

Now, Rav Yonoson and Rebbetzin Dr. Bruriah Hutner David (BHD) have no children. This was a source of great anguish to RYH. BHD runs BJJ in Jerusalem and has to be there. RYH had made the decision in the early 1960s to move to EY and build a yeshiva. He entered into a shutfus with Rav Dov Schwartzman and when RYH tried to have RYD take his place with Rav Schwartzman, Rav Scwartzman instead said bye-bye to both RYD and to RYH. That lead to a famous din Torah (and indeed RYH was not afraid of dinei Torah, he relished them even though he did not respond to RSC's.)

Eventually, Rav Hutner went solo and established Yeshivas Pachad Yitzchok (YPY) in Yerushalayim of which RYD is the ONLY Rosh Yeshiva today. RAS is not permitted to go there by RYD. In Brooklyn however BOTH RYD and RAS serve as co-equal Roshei Yeshiva ad hayom hazeh.

Here's the catch: RYH, and after his 1980 petirah, RYD and BHD, were koveah themselves in Eretz Yisroel, but, like RYH had done, they come to CB in Brooklyn every year at least three times: For the entire Pesach; for the first days of Sukkos; and for the big annual combined CB-YPY fund raising dinner in December and sometimes staying for part of Chanuka.

As a sign of RYD's seniority, as his stataus as the chasane debei nesiah and as the only one who has put out written follow-ups to RYH's ma'amorim, RYD always gets kedimah to say the first ma'amorim in CB, and RAS speaks second. All this is part of the background about RSC's assertions that RYD engineered his ouster, using RAS as the battering ram, to ensure that the cumbersome triumvirate would be reduced to merely a 50-50 dual-monarchy at the top. No chance of RYD ever being outvoted "2 to 1" had RSC still been around without RYH to adjudicate (because RYH loved RSC and would listen to his eitzos in many fields, he called RSC his "secret weapon" to help CB, as RAS was too harsh with people but RSC is warm person.) That is why also, a shocked RSC told people when the machlokes first broke out 30 years ago and CB was pushing him out, that "I did not leave Chaim Berlin, Chaim Berlin left me!" Indeed.

As for RAS and who he places in shtelles, well he has two sons and three eidims. Not that many people. One son, Noson, is a mohel, and RAS tries to encourage CB to use him, but he is not on the hanhalla, he is on the board of directors. The oldest son is Mordechai who is giving it the good old college try as mashgiach, but they say it's not going so good, he is too overbearing and not a pleasnt presence. At least Rav Miller was funny, RSC warm and wise, and Rav Shimon Groner was ehrlich and kind.

The three RAS eidims are temimusdikke and truly eidel people. The genuine illui Shlomo Haliwa is the top magid shiur, and the other hard-working two, Yormak and Sendrowitz, say chaburos in the yeshiva. This is not an unusual arrangment for any yeshiva or rebbistive where sons and eidims get top positions. Where is it different? Lakewwod is ruled by the Kotler mishpoche and the Mir is ruled by Reb Beinish Finkel's eidims, etc etc.

The Fruchthandlers have plenty of shtelles and power in CB. Funny that enquiring jew should think that RAS is stiffing the Fruchthandlers when a common (mis?) conception has it that they own the place and that RAS works for them. But from the CB point of view, world view, it's a Zevulun-Yissacher partnership. RYH gave over the Brooklyn part of CB to RAS to run and the administration of the board and ensuring the fund-raisng and cash flow is Reb Avrohom Fruchthandler's headache as he was appointed the official Nasi/President of CB (but NOT a rosh yeshiva of any sort.) So Avrohom Fruchthandler is the money man and RAS is the Rosh Yeshiva together with RYD. And Fruchandler built YPY and has to support RYD as well as RAS.

The oldest Fruchhandler, Rav Yosef is a "RM" in CB and is one of the senior maggidei shiur. Another Fruchthandler brother, Rav Shlomo is co-rosh yeshiva of the CB high school mesivta, the other menahel is Shlomo Braunstein a mechutan of Avrohom Fruchandler. Two of Avrohom Fruchthandler's sons are rebbeim in the high school mesivta. So there are more Fruchthandlers in CB with shetteles than there are Schechters. It's a partnesrship and it works for both of them. They co-ordinate their moves together and that is why RSC lashes out in his hazmones and letter at both of them. (Note also how RSC refers to Avrohom F. as: "Mr Fruchthandler" as he really regards the F's as intellectual midgets!)

Had the independent thinking and acting RSC been around as mashgiach he would have had the right to give not just his popular and powerful chaburos but also his dei'os which the others might not have liked. RSC was always very popular with the college-going balebatishe crowd in CB and who knows he may have been able to sway them on the board had he been allowed to keep his shtelle.

So they engineered his ouster, no doubt about it, in coup-de-tat fashion, and from the CB point of view they went to war against him and, from *their* point of view *they* probably imagine that *they* did no less than Dovid Hamelech when he set up "Uriah HaChiti" (this is NOT chas vesholom to imply or compare RSC to Uriah in any way whatsoever, but it's only meant to illustrate the method of war-like and conspiritorial operation and aggressive milittant responses of CB to someone *THEY* conceived of as a "threat" to *their* plans for the future, even though RSC himself had done nothing wrong objectively.)

Paradoxically, RSC would probably have helped the place grow and become popular as he was so good at enunciating RYH's ideas and the CB point of view about yeshiva policies, such as going to college at night or who should be allowed into the kollel and popularizing the ma'amorim instead of belaboring them like RAS does in his over-bearing way.

So the fratricidal stand-off continues, and take note that in his letter of Shevat 5753, RSC writes that he was the victim of "...the betrayal, the deceit, the conspiracey to FRATRICIDE and the plunder..." and indeed it was FRATRICIDE as one CB brother rose up to eliminate another CB brother. The words "fratricide" and "plunder," among many's letter of Shevat 5753, reveal just how much of a war it really was and still is.

Reportedly RSC claimed at some points that his beef was not with RYH, who RSC held was being manipulated by RYD and RAS. So the name RYH isn't mentioned in the letter. But it's a key piece of this situation/equation because the main reason RYH and RAS never responded to any hazmonas to dinei Torah from RSC is that they held he was "lav ba'al devarim didi" that RSC had no legs and grounds to stand on since he receeived his mandate to be mashgiach from RYH in the first place and later, although painful for all, RYH withdrew than mandate, just as RYH had been forced to ask certain talmidim to return thier semichas after they were deemed to have "gone off the derech."

There was a story that was making the rounds 30 years ago, that when when RSC first heard of the new conditions being asked of him (to become the proverbial "eved kenani" to RAS), he reminded RYH that he (RYH) had promised him an equal vote with RAS and with RYD, to which RYH responded: "obber vos hob ich gezogt, ich hob oichet a vote! and as far as CB is concerned that is the beginning and the end of the story with RSC: He was given fresh orders. He couldn't and wouldn't comply, so RYH fired him. Poshut. No din Torah on Earth and no recounting of all the events going back to ma'aseh bereishi will ever convince the anash of CB otherwise

So, at this stage, 30 years on, the canons are still firing at each other, sometimes from a distance as on the Internet, and sometimes close by, as happened with the CB-Veretzky clash, the matter has still not been brought to proper closure.

This is so Hutnerian in its "grandiosity." To induce a "30 year war" that might well turn out to be a "100 year war" or a war that goes on till the coming of Moshiach.

There will be no winners in this ugly fratricidal family feud. It's as bad as the struggle between Barry Gurary and his uncle the Rebbe; the fight between Aaron and Zalman Teitelbaum of Satmar; the Bobov war between the Halberstams and the Ungars; and a few other big time machlokesen. That is why we are still in golus and Moshiach has still not come ro redeem us. May it happen soon. Amen.

(To enquiring jew: This is about as detailed a response as can be given on a blog like this. If you have a specific question about CB etc, please ask. Thanks.)

Hirshel Tzig said...

wow!

I could make 3 new threads out of this 1 comment.

Enquiring Jew said...

Tragedy:

Like I've said previously it's all very interesting stuff. Whether any of it has any connection to reality is another question entirely. I appreciate your talents as a spinmeister though. Your point being that any story can be spun and twisted to serve the means and ends of the storyteller, being very well taken.

I think you owe me a big Yasher Koach though because from the nature of your post it seems like youv'e been looking for an opening to let loose with the CB version of events which I guess I gave you.

Unintentionally though, you keep proving my original point which is that the appropriate place for these issues to be hashed out is in Bes Din not in some kind of crazy hundred years war. Don't you agree that it's the Jewish way to avoid public airing of dirty laundry and going to a Bes Din to handle these things in a dignified manner?

I mean look at Tzig here, he's somehow gotten hold of all these documents which are certainly not flattering to CB under any circumstance. Who knows what else is out there?

By the way I understand your real point. It can be summed up in the classical line of Dasan Vaviram when summoned by Moshe Rabbeinu. "Vayoimru el Moshe Loi Naaleh Hainei Hanushim Haeilah Tinakeir Loi Naaleh". [They said to Moshe we will not go up to you, even if you scratch our eyes out we will not go"]. CB's message to Rav Moshe is identical. We will not answer your Hazmanah and would rather endure Shivuh Madoorei Gehinnom, Bizeh Ibibuh, before we go to BD with RSC.

Do you think that's a very mature, intelligent and responsible approach coming from a Mossad Hatorah?

Chaim Berlin tragedy explains said...

Dear enquiring jew, if you will re-read every word that chaim berlin tragedy has written you will see how absolutely objective chaim berlin tragedy is TRYING to be. You are mistaken to think that the reponses are mere spin-meistering when instead they are attempts to take you into the minds of the CB anash, who by the way, would never agree to any official response on this format. So the fact that chaim berlin tragedy writes here should be a mark of absolute neutrality.

chaim berlin tragedy is on nobody's side, just trying to figure out the objective truth of what really happened in this tragedy. Not on the side of RYH, not RAS, not RSC, not RYD, not you and not the owner of this blog (funny name tzig, and he should withdraw the "anti-tzemach" name since the "official" tzemach has gone AWOL!) But as you can tell, there is familiarity with the case and all the main players having followed it from the beginning till now.

The posting of the hazmonas and RSC letter were imporatant steps to air out the subject.

The documents are impressive but they probably lose their kovod and their kedushah for being published on the shmutzikke Internet, but such is life. Can you imagine that every hazmanah of many juicy cases would be published on the Internet? It would be both terrifying and very, very anti-climactic.

The copies of the hazmones and RSC letter that were published here were a good read. You know, the "mental-blog" of tzemach atlas once wrote that there were certain private documents that Barry Gurary did not publish as he did not wish to escalate the situation and as part of an agreement that once didan notzach was over, he could live out his life in peace and quiet without worries. The point being, there are dirty documents about everyone and everything and bazman hazeh it's as easy as oening a free blog on blogger sponsored by Google and walla every last nasty thing about anyone, such as medical records, court records, tax records, therapists records, recorded tapes like happened with Nixon and Watergate and Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp, and there is no end to what can be done, to get posted online.

So it's no chochma really and it does not change the basic realities of the case of "RSC vs CB" or from the CB view, the case of "CB vs RSC."

So you insist on sticking to one idea, that CB are mesarvim and you even compare them to Dasan and Aviram, but you conveniently overlook the key question:

Will the real "mored" please stand up?

As the world knows for a long time already and as RSC will assert, it is CB that are mored against the hazmones of not one but a few batei din and against the requests of gedolim. As far as RSC is concerned they are in "automatic cherem" (his words, as heard from him) since they are lo tsayis dina. He even goes so far as to call RAS an "apikores" for not repenting and coming to bais din which he (RSC) states is unlikely to happen.

Then there is the CB take on RSC and his responses to RYH and his open written attacks on RAS as well as his private verbal attacks against RYD. To them RSC is a mored bemalchus (a emmesdikke malchus iz noch mer vi a bais din) and therefore he is, so to speak, "dead meat." That he has lived and survived so long and has in some ways flourished, notably through the time he devoted to writing his beautiful Maskil LiShlomo sefarim that are on a par with his former master's (Maran Rosh HaYeshiva HaGri Hutner as he himself addressed RYH once when he was in the geder of the arch CB party ideologue and spokesman, since noone could say over RYH Toires like RSC could, everyone in CB knew it, even though they may have been afraid to admit it.)

Now, if one camp is shouting "mored be-bais din" and another camp is shouting "mored be-malchus" which voice is right?

Both camps are filled with lomdei Torah, rabbonim, poskim, yirei shomayim, etc etc, and both camps are adamant that *ONLY" their view of the world is the right one.

You know, Lubavitchers should be able to grasp this, because the response of CB on a metaphysical level to RSC is no different than the response of the Rebbe to Barry Gurary. It was bedafke because of the nontkeit that a more strident and vehement response came forth from the top echelons of Chabad against Barry and of CB against RSC. Following the nitzochen of didan notzach in secular court (not in a Bais Din mind you) the Rebbe compared Barry to the Satan, it can be seen on one of the Chabd.org videos online by the entire world. Is that normal? Would a non-Lubavitcher sympathise with such a perspective and point of view? Highly unlikely. But for the anash of Chabad it is alef beis, because the dictum that applies here is "oy lanu o letzoraynu" ("either you are with us or you are with our enemies") because there is no middle ground. If the Rebbe issues a gezeirah that Barry is treif and finished than oy vavoy to Barry. Similarly with CB, mipi RYH Hutner came the bitter gezeirah that RSC had to go. Overnight he became a pariah. Only one or two family members were allowed to invite RSC to simchas, for others it was yehareg ve'al ya'avor. It was not a pretty picture. A number of CB chasunes and simchas were ruined by this bittere matzev as some hardy souls tried to straddle the fence between the warring lions of CB's Kollel "Gur Aryeh"
but isntaed had to face walk-outs and other disgraceful and humiliating behavior in public.

Not only that, enquiring jew seems to miss the point that the daled amos of RYH and the CB Bais Medrash are absolutely no different than a Rebbe's hoiz that is always on the level of "kodesh kedoshim" and a madreigah that is higher than a bais din. Think of the madreigah of 770, would it answer to the call of an earthly bais din if some head shaliach fell out of favor with the Rebbe?

As was stressed repeatedly in the earlier posts, to the anash of CB, RYH and now RAS are nothing less than the Gedolei HaDor that do not answer to mortals, no matter how chushuv (not even Rav Feinshein), if they have concluded that they they are not mecheyav to answer. They do not care if the velt does not get it, as long as they are klohr about what they arae doing. After all, der oilem iz a goilem.

To CB, when RAS sits with RYD and they are moisif a third CB in house gadol, like say Rav Shimon Groner zt"l or any top maggid shiur then automaticaly presto *THEY* have their own CB bais din there and then and they do not answer to any other external bais din, no matter if it sent them a hundred hazmones, it would be like Barry Gourary sending the Rebbe a hundred hazmones, the Rebbe would just throw them in the trash. This is not anyone's chochma this is poshut the metzius of how they think or work in CB, like they would in Chabad. Aai, they have at times in the past gone to other batei din, nu nu, they also have to go outside to pay a parking ticket sometimes (it's a good conversation piece or material for jokes about goyishe kep and amaratzim), and that is only because they deemed to come down from Har Sinai. The Torah is always nitna in the (CB or any true makom Torah's) Bais Medrash from Har Sinai itself, so to *them" they are the Moishes and anyone who defies them is the "Dasan veAvirams."

As they say in any divorce battle there are always at least three sides to the argument: His, hers and the truth.

And it is at the truth that we should aim to arrive, and not pick sides with this one or the other one because we know the teaching of chazal: "al tadun es chaverche ad shetagiya limkomo" which goes on everyone on all the sides.

One thing is for sure, we here are not a bais din and never will be. We are just a peanut gallery and hopefully what is said here can shed light on the wound and heal the tragedy as it's exposed to day-light rather than festering and rotting in silence. Are you listening RAS and RSC?

Enquiring Jew said...

Tragedy:

Your basically raising the insanity defense saying that the CBers are so divorced from reality that they equate a real world Siruv to some romanticized notion of "moired bimalchus". I realize your trying to create some moral equivalence between the two sides but your just digging the CBers into a deeper hole.

Lets agree to disagree. You see it as an unresolvable tragedy with a lot of pain on both sides and why can't we all make up and play nicely together. I see it as a crime that needs to be brought to justice.

I believe that Tzig has taken a step in that direction by bringing some of the real world facts, backed up by documents, to the light of day. As more of those real world facts come to the light of day, as opposed to the self-serving "stories" you generously dispense, the possibility of justice only increases.

Chaim Berlin tragedy sums up said...

To dear enquiring jew: Yes, there are always two sides to very coin (three if you count the all-inclusive rim), what's the chidush.

Have you never heard of shnayim ochzim when sometimes bais din can help by stating yachloku and sometimes the solution may be kol de'alim govar! It is evident that you do not wish to take chaim berlin tragedy as serious as you just recast it into simplicities, such as calling CB and RAS simple mesarvim, or you respond that any attempt at describing the complex ways of Chaim Berliners as "grandiosity" and "megalomania" (noone would then grasp the workings and responses of RSC either since he was in a way the shpitz Chaim Berliner and RYH talmid), or you call it "spin" or you compare CB to Dasan VeAviram, or now you say that an explanation of the CB response to the machlokes with RSC is an "insanity defense" and you constantly dismiss the very detailed, comprehensive and patient responses of chaim berlin tragedy to you as "stories" and question if it's "connected to reality" when you have not given a single example of proof that you are familiar with the CB community or that you know and have had first-hand experience with any of RYH's talmidim let alone with RYH, RAS, RYD personally.

Any reader of these discussions who is familiar with this 30 year old saga, and with the personalities and issues involved would easily confirm what has been said by chaim berlin tragedy, even though they may disagree or correct or add some facts here and there, but they would not, like enquiring jew, simply brush off with nisht tzum zach responses that only show that enquiring jew has already made his mind, and even if there were no hazmones or a RSC in the world, simply hates CB for whatever reasons, essentially not based on facts or reality or personal experience but just because there are people out there who just dislike RYH, RAS, RYD and CB just as there are people who dislike Lakewood, or Lubavitch, or Satmar, or what have you.

So there is no need to repeat what has been said as it's out in the open for all to read and readers will make up there own minds, kayaduah, for themselves and not based on what anyone has stated. The jury is still out as they say.

Be that as it may, there is still a need to respond to enquiring jew's last post for the sake of clarifying a few points and misinterpretations by him.

enquiring jew said: "Your basically raising the insanity defense saying that the CBers are so divorced from reality that they equate a real world Siruv to some romanticized notion of "moired bimalchus"."

Response: Not at all. It is very unfair and judgmental of you to label a very rational and coherent explanation that would be understood by any Toiradikke Yid as "an insanity defense" and why would anyone get the impression that CBers are divorved from reality"? Who defines "reality" here? It is a big point. Obviously you have your definition of "reality" which may or not match the rest of the world's.

You are also not familiar with the very strong and aggressisve self-image that CBers have of themselves. They believe, like all serious Talmidei Chachomim, that they embody Toirah, that they are the Toirah, and they take it a step further than most that they will act to protect and defend that Toirah beyond what other Bnai Toirah may do. Thus RYH was extraordinarily combative and prone to fights (not in the physical sense chas vesholom of course) with superiors (he defied the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe by walking out on him, after having been kovei'ah ittim with him in NYC), he had numerous machlokesen and dinei Toirah with colleagues and associates, he had multiple parting of the ways with untold numbers of talmidim, and RSC was the last and the bitterest of those that have lingered and remained unresolved in some ways even after 30 years, and you have never once attempted to penetrate into that question of why does RSC still cling to his milchomo against CB and RAS? And conversely why are they so bitterly in contempt of him and anything that eminates from him such as the hazmones after all this time?

You have no answers, beyond saying, in effect, they are simple mesarvim, meshugoyim divorced from reality. But it cannot be so, because we are dealing with extraordinary personalities here not just a bunch of Chaim Yankels from Yehupitz.

Try coming up with real answers rather than repeating the mantra, you are a mesarev ledin and come to bais din, because as you see it does not work with them, they just think it's a huge waste of time since they have better things to do. Like run a yeshiva (which RSC does not), dominate Agudath Israel of America (which RSC does not), get kovod from all the rebbes and rosh yeshivas in the world, as anyone can see from all the pictures every week in the centerfolds of the YATED and the MODIAH (which RSC does not), be sought out for advice and eitzos in klal projects and political affairs (which RSC does not), and retain the ongoing loyalty and following of most past CB alumni (which RSC does not), and if they were such "out of reality" people none of this would be possible because insane people get to be admitted to mental hospitals but they do not get the respect of a good chelek of the Oilam HaTorah. (So your cheap shot here is just way, way off the mark, even though it has been given this lengthy response, which it did not really deserve.)

Let's go vaiter.

enquiring jew then said "Lets agree to disagree. You see it as an unresolvable tragedy with a lot of pain on both sides and why can't we all make up and play nicely together. I see it as a crime that needs to be brought to justice."

Response: Sure. It's perfectly ok to "agree to disagree" but not if you hurl bizyoines at another's arguments by claiming that what is being said is "grandiosity" or "megalomania" or "stories" or that CB are Dasan VeAviram or that CB is out of reality. At no point have these kind of insults and attacks been hurled at you!!! The only question and request has been that you should clarify how well you know the subject you are speaking about? And the only serious critique of you has been that from all your comments it is evident that you do not know RYH, RAS, RYD or the CB velt at all. Unless you are hiding something or have not revealed you true motives and intentions. Instead, show that you have a NEUTRAL interest in CB, let's say before the RSC machlokes or had there never been such a thing, what would your views about CB be then? Also dismissive and disdainfull? One would be tempted to say that you have made up your mind and do not wish to be bothered by the facts (in this case a more serious objective look that has attempted to describe the CB mehalech, but not in a slavish or blind way, which you have still not given me credit for.)

Anyhow, noone is saying "let's kiss and make up" (even though that may be what is required.) You say that you "see it as a crime that needs to be brought to justice" but do you honestly think that RAS or AF or any serious CBer will now wish to settle more than before when they see that what have remained as private documents and a very personal letter to Mr. Zweibel, the chief legal counsel at the Agudah, have been made
public on the Internet of all places, and it's known that Agudah condemns the use of the Internet that lead to attacks on its own gedolim wwho have enunciated a cherem against such use of the Internet, since this is not a site that is needed for anyone's parnossah, and on what they will be told is a blog run as an "attack site" by a pro-Lubavitcher? Do you think these are measure that will calm the waters or will now yet again raise the pressures and bring old scores to the surface? Was Mr. Zweibel asked if a letter addressed to him, and of a highly personal and explosive nature could be published on the Internet?

Was each of the Batei Din with the agreement of each member on that Bais Din asked if they would approve of their hazmones, without even their signatures being blacked out, being publisshed on the Internet, and that may constitute a serious breach of their right to privacy? Has this now become a hefkerdikke free for all? When last did CB alumni go around publishing confidential hazmones or top secret personal documents about people they have disputes with on the Internet?

This is new ground we are into and the legal and personal ramifications in the long run remain to be seen. I would not be happy camper dayan if a hazmona that I had issued in my bais din, with my signature on it, got posted on the Internet without my reshus. While it may be a public document and I cannot control what happens to it, it would still not add credibilty to the tzad that wishes to seek "justice" with it.

I am not sure if RSC, who is now into his 80s tzu lange yorren, who may or may not have given reshus for these documents to be published online, fully grasps the context and methods of blogs and online forums and both the limits and possibilities of the Internet to achieve the satisfaction of grievances.

Can anyone here prove that they have discussed this matter with him and state what his reponses are for the public record, beyond what he has written in his letter of 1993 to Mr. Zweibel about 15 years ago?

The owner of this blog did what he deemed was right, that is his choice, and in terms of objectivity it will probably help so that people can judge for themselves. Digital democratization is great but it may not always be in accordance the da'as Toirah of notable gedolim, poskim and rabbonim nowadays.

So in short, justice will not be had from these Internet revevaltions and debates. One more point, when CB tried to take Veretzky to a Bais Din, the Veretzy side very discreetly obtained copies of these hazmones from RSC that the RSC side had once upon a time sent to CB, and RSC gladly gave it to them which helped them win their case against CB. That was a mentschliche way of doing things as in-house sharing of information between rabbonim and batei din in order to pursue tzedek within the daled amos of halacha of the batei din is the way to go. The Internet is a different parsha. So Veretzky, and by association, RSC too, won against CB as they were forced to relent and could not back up their side since once the RSC card is played they will not respond to it in any way, even if it means losing a chunk of prime real estate on their territory that they needed for their bochurim.

So again, its hard to see how the "justice" you claim to desire will be brought about by the present method of scattershot revelation of these documents that only damages their credibility and in fact may harm their ability to influence another Bais Din down the line that may be in a position to help resolve RSC's ta'anes and CB's counter-ta'nes.

enquiring jew concludes: "I believe that Tzig has taken a step in that direction by bringing some of the real world facts, backed up by documents, to the light of day. As more of those real world facts come to the light of day, as opposed to the self-serving "stories" you generously dispense, the possibility of justice only increases."

Response: As Shakespeare says, what's done is done and cannot be undone. But Yidden are ma'aminim and bnai ma'aminim who believe what the Toirah and Chazal teach that Teshuva can overtun sins and make deficits into credits. It is hard to know exactly what you mean or wish to achieve when you say that you want to increase "justice"? Do you want RSC to become the Mashgiach of CB again? Do you wish to see all the parties appear at a Bais Din soon if CB has not done so for 30 year in spite of any and all arguments? Do you think that someone like RAS will now be in anything but war-mode once he knows that a private letter has been posted by his former friend that attacks him personally as if he is the root of all evil on this planet and labels him an "apikores"? Will Avrohom Fruchthandler sign a blank cheque for about a million dollars or more for all the "back pay" that RSC claims that he wishes to recoup? Will RAS be kicked off the Moetzes and will they put RSC in instead? Will RAS's mishpoche be removed from shttelles in CB and will they bring Rav Mottie Yafen, the Rosh Yeshiva of Novarodok in Flatbush who is married to Dr. Elisheva Carlebach the oldest daughter of RSC? Will RSC be allowed to say his version of RYH's ma'amorim in CB, and will CBers be told RAS and RYD that they should attend them in his house? Will RSC join RAS and RYD in sharing the top-billing at the official CB mesibos (considered to be the high point of all CB aviodah) on Purim, Pesach, and Sukkos? Will RSC be given shlishi In CB soon or will he get maftir Yonah next Yom Kippur in in front of the full CB bais medrash? Do you really think that ANY ONE of these scenarios will ever come to pass? Who is out of reality here and who is being grandiose to even think that RSC could or would get any such thing after all that has transpired? The answer is obvious. It will never happen, unless the Moshiach arrives suddenly and the Sanhedrin in Yerushalayim starts saying that such-and-such must be done.

So what exactly is your intent in this search of "justice" in this case remains totally unclear.

What is also unclear is what would RSC regard as justice that could bring closure to thise entire sordid tragedy. Does anyone know for sure what exactly RSC wants to finalize? Yes, yes, he wants the case to come to Bais Din, that is known for 30 years already, but what would he imagine a final p'sak would look like?

What would be the best case outcome as far as he is concerned? Does he know? Do you know? Does anyone know? Can it ever be known? Do his future yorshim intend to keep up this fight? Can they? Will they? What would they want to accomplish? Reparations, like from Nazi Germany? Are they looking for money? It's unlikely!

Has RSC recreated a latter-day Holocaust for himself because he was the victim of the origibal Holocaust. It has been said in CB circles for a long time, that at some point and on some level he "snapped" from all the tzores he had been through in life. Personally, as I have known him, I do not for one minute think that it is true, but that is what some of them have said. In fact, RYH once blurted out calling him "a meshuganer yekke" (RYG's words quoted verabim, not mine!) So there are tragice dimensions at work here, that's for sure, when each side conssiders the other to be beyond the pale of normalcy.

Or is this a fight to the death, like Shimshom hagibor, tamus nafshi im haplishtim? Is it about revenge at this point, and G-d alone knows there is a lot that RSC could seek revenge for, no doubt about it, or is it to be mevakesh es ha'emes and have a siyum and hadren that will close this sordid chapter in the history of the yeshiva world in America once and for all?

One final word, and it has been said, no matter what documents are revealed or posted here or anywhere, it will not change reality or the nature of this dispute. Both parties have various means at their disposal, and so far, as has proven by this 30 year war, noone has found the magic formula that will bring it to a close. So let this blog do as it wishes, America is a democracy and free speach is allowed that includes the aring of dirty laundry, but it's not over till it's over so that it would be smart to keep in mind that discretion is always the better part of valor.

(After such an arichus, not much more can surely be said.)

enquiribg jew said...

Tragedy:


The fundamental problem with the logic of all your posts is that you want to have your cake and eat it too.

If as you claim that CB's behavior in all of this is justified by all of the good reasons you have enunciated in this and your previous posts, such as "They believe, like all serious Talmidei Chachomim, that they embody Toirah, that they are the Toirah, and they take it a step further than most that they will act to protect and defend that Toirah beyond what other Bnai Toirah may do." then I am not sure what all the fuss is about.

This has been already and continues to be an excellent opportunity to share with all of the world the CB shitah in all its glory. You should be very confident that all of those constituencies who so admire and adore CB "Agudath Israel of America...all the rebbes and rosh yeshivas in the world... [all those people who have] sought out for advice and eitzos in klal projects and political affairs... most past CB alumni...a good chelek of the Oilam HaTorah," will now be even more enamored with the "gadlus" of CB and its zealous love of Torah.

If on the other hand, there is something very wrong with CB's handling of this affair, something that if it became known might cause all those people to view CB in a very different light, then it is incumbent on CB to rectify that situation immediately.

You can't have it both ways. You can't on the one hand try to rationalize CB's behavior, but on the other hand be disturbed about the public airing of the story.

By the way I don't disagree with you in principle, that this is not the place, in the first instance, to air this story. The place for that is in BD. Thats the way the Torah requires Orthodox jews to resolve their disputes. This is the responsible dignified, tzniusdik, and Torahdik way for frum ehrlich jews to work things out. Certainly, thats where ehrlicher bnai torah go to work out their differences.

IF CB refuses to go to BD they have refused to accept the Torahdik way to resolve this problem. They can't then complain about the internet or Arkoas shel akoom or whatever non-torahdik way is used to resolve the dispute. Those things only arise as a direct result of failures by bnai torah to resolve their issues in a Toradike way. Again, you can't have it both ways.

CB has brought this problem upon themselves. If as you say CB is such a responsible and rational organization who occupy such a prominent place in Klal Yisroel, it is doubly incumbent on them to resolve these issues in an appropriate and dignified manner. That's how responsible community minded people behave.

You ask me to answer all of your arguments and what kind of solutions can be acheived at this time with respect to the underlying dispute. There is no reason for me to even attempt to go there. CB has an outstanding Hazmanah. They have to answer the Hazmanah. Period. End of story. BD wiil hear all of the arguments and give a Psak.


Will this be a pleasant experience for CB. Probably not. Din Torahs never are. When Hashem asked Avraham to sacrifice his son he could have made a thousand cheshbonos why Klal Yisroel and the Torah would have been far better served by not listening. He put all those cheshbonos aside and gave a one word answer -- Hineni. That's the bottom line here. When Rav Moshe Feinstein sends you a Hazmanah Ledin, the only appropriate answer a Jew can give is Hineni.

Chaim Berlin tragedy sighs said...

To dear enquiring jew: In all of our conversations I have not really seen you budge from your stand that CB must go to Bais Din to answer the hazmones, which they have not done. And it seems will not do. Them's the facts. Tut zei eppes, zei feifen on di gantze velt.

I was trying to shed some light on some possible reasons why they did not, have not, and will not do so.
\
You have not indicated at any point that you have taken anything I have said seriously. On the contrary you have belittled and ignored my attempts at conveying a neutral and objective perspective which you then twist by saying that I "want to have my cake and eat it too" when you do not realize that I am not speaking for CB and never have, so you have missed the point of where I am coming from altogether and what I have tried to convey with all candor and sincerity, and because being objective means that I can at least try to see both sides of the arguement, which you have point blank refused to do, probably I am surmising because you either (a) do not know what CB, RYH and RAS or even RSC are all about, or (b) you wish to retain a guarded anonymity, not of who you are, but so as not to reveal your true motives and ultimate goals, that is if you have any.

Is RSC prepared to go to a non-Jewish court now after not doing so for 30 years? Very funny! I dunno, but is there a statute of limitaions on such things? Can you sue a former employer for firing you 30 years ago? Also very funny! I mean, this is not a claim about asbestos poisoning or atomic radiation in the workplace that now comes to light is it? Has he ever tried that in the past? Do you think that a US civil court will view his claims with sympathy, as an old over-the-hill unemployed rabbi in his 80s with a long white beard who comes with claims that he was unjustly fired ("laid off" or "let go" are the polite terms) THIRTY years ago and that he now wants back-pay? Can you imagine their reactions? How many US citizens have been fired and let go from their jobs in the past 30 years? Probably half or more of the American population has been through this experience, and the jury, if it even gets to a jury, will laugh their bellies off. What next then? An appeal to the UN Human Rights Commission? A case at the World Court on a par with the Nuremberg Trials? Now that would be truly grandiose of the RSC side wouldn't it?

Are there other ducuments against CB lurking? There may be. But you can rest assured that CB has the means and the influence and the time to hire the best defense teams in all senses of the word to fight any allegations. Such is life. Could the RSC side sustain such a battle? Does it wish to? Will the oilem HaToirah benefit from any of this (beyond your vague rejoinders of "justice, please")? Will anyone benefit from any of this? Does anyone care about this still? Do you realize that not a single bochur or yungerman in CB or in all yeshivas today has any idea about RSC and knows the real story of how it all came to be nor do they care quite honestly? Do any of them know about the Emden-Eybeschütz controversy? Or care about it? How about the more famous machlokesen between Chasidimm and Misnagdim, does anyone lose any sleep over that anymore? Those real struggles have been transformed into bobbe-meises or meises mit berd! So why should anyone care one way or another what happended to RSC or what he did or will do without him sounding like an 80 year old cry-baby, or what the whole drama and tragedy was between CB and RSC?

Honestly, in the grand scheme of things the way oilam hazeh works, RSC is over-rated, and frankly, as they say in the classics, he is history. In person is fantastic, brilliant, and a darling person. A Holocaust survivor from Germany. He became one of RYH's closest disciples, he was a high school limudei kodesh teacher in the now defunct Yeshiva of Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn (a struggling school) when RYH plucked him out of total obscurity and appointed him to the post of Mashgiach at CB in about 1966, to replace Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l. RSC held that post for about 12 years in all, till he was finally and successfuly ousted by unanimous decision of the administration of the CB yeshiva in about 1978. Since then he has given lectures, recorded tapes, and written a set of wondrous holy books Maskil LiShlomo on "Emunos VeDeios" that are not that well-known.

Sadly, by now, his greatest claim to fame has been that RSC has gone around like a tenacious Holocaust survivor demanding that his last full-time employers at CB (he did hold a part-time job at some Bais Yaakov schools since then) answer to why they ousted him so unceremoneously and that he be granted back-pay. In his favor he has musterred the rulings of several Jewish courts, has obtained a favorable letter on his behalf from the Agudas Harabonim with Rav Moishe Feinstein's signature affixed to it. And, now, as we know, he wrote a bitter letter to Mr. Zweibel esq. at the Agudah in 1993 to protest the appointment of his nemesis RAS to the august MGH. But so far, noone but himself, his family, and the minor-league neither here-nor-there in the haskofa department ertezky Yeshiva that needed a halachik rebuttal to purchase land and erect a building right on CB's borders have paid any serious attention to the fate or reasonings of RSC. He has become a kind of King Lear figure declaiming "A Din Toirah, A Din Toira, 30 years+ for a Din Toirah" and noone seems to respond except desperados out to sock CB and the Agudah velt in the jaw, or now a blogger desperate for a "scoop" (or unless Veretzky wants to expand some more now at CB's expense..?)

CB and RAS for their part go on with life as normal. They, like all leaders of the Oilam HaTorah, forbid anyone from looking at the Internet, so that what goes on here is moot. They are learning real Toirah, breaking the binding of umpteen seforim and shteiging. The President of CB, Avrohom Fruchtandler and cohorts is getting richer as proven by his former financial alliance with the Reichmans of Toronto and now the richest frum real estate tycoon in Brooklyn, Ruby Schron who supports the Mirrer yeshiva and zillions of other causes, and whose oldest daughter is married to a top CB maggid shiur, Rav Binyomin Cohen, son of Rav Feivel Cohen (another old CBer whom RAS displaced, and who also went on to write seforim, the Badei HaShulchan on YD, but at least who had the good sense not to fight fruitless hara-kiri wars against RAS and CB.) And so everybdy at CB is happy with life, which is something you evidently do not realize and probably resent and seem to have the delusion that all this will somehow be overturned soon with some sort of "revelation" or is a "revolution" you want? Time will tell what will be.

One final point, you accuse me of wanting to have my cake and eat it to, but you fail to notice that you are doing the same thing yourself when you fail to see that this is a blog we are on and it is has not been designated as the official website of RSC so that the documents published here are the responsibility of the blog owner, unless he wishes to tell the world that he is merely acting as a neutral medium for RSC. Therefore, the hazmnones and documents posted here are only the means that *the blog owner* has chosen to further his ends of running and getting attention for his blog and at no time should you or anyone lose perspective to imagine that this is the place that RSC is now fighting his battle for justice in Bais Din by proxy.

What more can be said, that has not been said already is difficult to conceive especially when you remain static and rigidly opposed to CB, which from your posts, is it is evident you do not know.

Rav Moishe is already in the oilem ha'emes. RAS is in a solid alliance with Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven, the sons of Rav Moishe. In order to get onto the MGH there has to be a total consensus so that RAS must have voted to let Rav Dovid onto the MGH, so it is unlikely that RAS will face any problems from any Feinsteins ever. So who will presecute a 30 year old case? Machon Lehoraya in Monsey? It is hard to see that CB would take them seriously. So for now it looks like more of the status quo and it would be interesting to see what the surprizes are that you keep on intimating will come soon.

By now, so many yeshivas in Flatbush have had to deal with "revelations" by crusaders on the Internet, that if everything that was said would amount to a summons to close the yeashivas concerned (chas vesholom) then not just CB would have to shut down, but also Torah Temimah, Torah VoDa'as, the Mir, and further afield the mosdos of Satmar, Bobov, Ger, and now Spinka for the various allegations and instances where they may have acted less than perfectly in all sorts of questionable settings. Some of which involved lengthy dinei Toirah and some of which were also in the secular courts, but at no time have any of these mosdos shut down nor can they, for then where would all the kinderlach, meidalach, bochurim and yungeleit go exactly? I think I am making sense.

Oh, and it's funny you should mention "Hineni" because the founder of the modern-day Hineni organization Rebbetzin Ester Jungreis sent both of her sons Yisroel and Osher to learn in CB. The lamden is R. Osher and he is still kovei'ah ittim in CB every day. A year ago the Rebbetzin and the entire Jungreis family was honored by CB at the annual dinner, and they gave CB lots of $$$ (has to be, because honors go to big givers) and this is but one example of why noone will cut their ties with CB, since they need CB more than CB needs them.

But you, dear enquiring jew, are free to dream on, and hope for a sunny day to come when CB will be humiliated and crushed and forced to shutter it's doors, since sadly, that is the only outcome that would seem to make you happy.

So as I said, let's try to see all sides of the picure, and not mistake real objectivity with slogans of eating cake and having it to.

enquiring jew said...

Tragedy:

You have successfully evaded the issue of CB's wrongful conduct in each and every post. I'm only here to discuss the issue raised by Tzig. Is CB right or wrong in having failed to respond to R' Moshe's hazmanah. Thats it. You fail to respond to the issues. Either repond to the issue raised by the blog or let it go.

Chaim Berlin tragedy concludes said...

enquiring jew says: "You have successfully evaded the issue of CB's wrongful conduct in each and every post. I'm only here to discuss the issue raised by Tzig. Is CB right or wrong in having failed to respond to R' Moshe's hazmanah. Thats it. You fail to respond to the issues. Either repond to the issue raised by the blog or let it go."

Response: When enquiring jew writes of "the issue of CB's wrongful conduct" it means he has inserted himself into the middle of a machlokes and chosen only one side, whereas my purpose has not been to choose sides here in this tragedy but to *study* it and try to *understand* it but not to act as "toi'en" or "dayan" or "ba'al machlokes" in any way chas vesholom.

I am not a party to this dispute and I assume that neither is enquiring jew, so therefore I have no interest in judging who is right and who is wrong, and neither should enquiring jew or anyone for that matter, when confronted by an admitedly perplexing machlokes between gedolim. Is Rav Moshe Feinstein more right than Rav Yitzchok Hutner? Is Rav Carlebach more right than Rav Aaron Schechter? Chas veshalom that anyone should judge this kind of question. Only fools would rush in to pre-judge such a situation.

Tzig, the "anti-tzemach", seems to have raised lost of questionONLY from RSC's point of view indeed he seems to be anti-yeshivish altogether in his open pro-Chabad milchoma on this blog, and while if you look at much of what I have written I have addded even more insight to the RSC claims, but at the very time, for the same of objectivity, I have tried to present the view of the situation from the way CB may *probably* be looking at things which Tzig has been gracious enough to be voiced here and for which he should be commended. So this is an official thank and yasher koach!

To repeat, it's worthwhile to repeat the old saying that in every divorce battle there are at least three sides: His, hers and the truth. I am for the truth, whereas you prefer to function from a "his" or "hers" fortification and refuse to venture out to an intellectually more neutral and less hostile middle ground, in the name of only wanting to be purely "Halachik" but since when is a blog like this a Halachik anything?

You even refuse to admit that you know little about the CB oilem, as is evident from many of your assessments of CB bazman hazeh, or about who and what made RYH tick, and his proteges RAS, RYD, AF, and even the ousted RSC. But I have overlooked that and continued the discussion in the vain hope of eliciting a less partisan reaction from you, since as I have repeatedly said that I do not speak for or reprsent CB, which I see has been an exercise in futility since you just repeat the same lines and mantras over and over again.

So then, I promise I will not keep on bothering you, because in any case, as even Tzig acknowledges, I have written so much that he could create many new threads from it. So it least I may do some good if Tzig's posts increase their scope beyond just CB-bashing and using le affaire Carlebach as the means to that end.

In any case, as far as is known, no din Torah will be helped or hurried up by the posting of private hazmones and confidential letters on the Internet when the ENTIRE Haredi leadearship and the world it leads and controls is *unanimously* opposed to frum Jews looking at the Interent if it is not parnosah related. Thus these kind of blogs and web-sites are as treif as chazir to the frum world and it is a great dis-service to Haredi-run Batei Din to post their hazmones on a medium that they regard as chazir treif. This is not my chidush, it's pretty poshut. So regardless of who is right or wrong in the CB vs RSC or the RSC vs CB case, someone here has made a serious strategic blunder in releasing these documents for a blog.

When you say: "Is CB right or wrong in having failed to respond to R' Moshe's hazmanah. Thats it." I say *I don't know* because CB are not dumb people and many among them are gedolei Torah and poskim and if they have seen fit not to respond who am I or anyone to judge them? It's like learning a sugya of a machlokes between Bais Shamai and Bais Hillel and in the middle od the shiur everyone is told that they must "choose sides" and how ridiculous would that be? It is not a fair question. Obviously RYH, RAS, RYD and almost all CBers would say it's right in this case. Why? Go ask them! Call up the CB office and ask for an explanation. RAS is very accesible just ask for an appointment with him. Personally, I wouldn't bother, because if he has not answered in 30 year he must have very good reasons for not doing so which he does not have to divulge to every Chaim Berel on the Internet or anywhere. I have tried to give some sort of rationale why they have not, do not, and will not go to any Bais Din tp please RSC or anyone. Maybe things things will look different with the arrival of Moshiach and the establishment of the Sanhedrin, may it happen soon, but for now all best are off that CB will respond to RSC. He will have to find better arguments and gain more influence to twist their arms in this case. I think that they have had more than enough of his antics and that they view him as just one huge brocha levatala nuisance who will not let up with his attacks. I do not speak for CB and I do not know to what degree I have penetrated the thinking of the CBers. But, as you can tell from my very detailed, patient and hopefully objective responses to you, I have some more-than-passing familiarity with the circumstances, issues, and personalities involved and this entire tragic saga, which you seem to calously ignore, but I will let that pass since you are so relentlessly mono-focused to the exclusion of all outside factors.

You when say to me: "You fail to respond to the issues. Either repond to the issue raised by the blog or let it go."

And sadly this last piece seems like an ultimatum to me, or perhaps a mark of your frustration, that is really saying "either you see it my way, or take the highway" well I am sad that after such a lengthy debate we are still not past step one, and yes, sadly, the highway is the way that I will follow now...

So farewell lonely enquiring jew!

I shall probably not respond again, unless something very new comes up here or in a new post that I notice and feel compelled to write about, so that you can now return to the canons and watch the fireworks on this blog and who knows where else, that will probably not achieve anything in the real world because as I have said, from what I know and see in reality, CB is going along its merry way as a functional and popular yeshiva, while RAS gets more and more kovod and glory with each passing day, and RSC and the few people who still are with him seek to grasp at the final straws before the candle dims and goes out forever and this entire truly tragic episode will become just another small footnote in the history of the Jews and how they at times agreed to disagree sometimes peacefully and sometimes by conducting decades long tragic machlokes, from which no winners emerged.