Sunday, December 30, 2007

A young (dapper) Kovler Rov



Reb Nochum Moshe Twersky of Kovel (seated left) as a young man posing with relatives, two scions of the Apter dynasty. The Trisker-Shtefineshter Rebbe (seated right) and the Loytzker Rebbe, Reb Moshe Mordche Heschel. (standing) I think the suit and walking stick are classic, if only a bit ahead of his time as far as Rebbishe Kinder go. It's not exactly what you see from the Chernobler representative Rebbes of today like the Skverrer Rebbe of New Square and Reb Duvid'l Rachmistrivker of Yerushalayim. Then again, they too had different influences which weren't necessary "Chernobyl." The Skverrer is very much Belz in nature; with Reb Yankev Yosef marrying a Belzer Eynikel and picking up lots of Belzer Minhogim, and the Rachmistrivker Yerushalmi for now five generations.

30 comments:

schneur said...

Wonderful picture.
Among other things this picture informs us that Russian Chassiduth both Chabad and Chagas (Lubavitch, Ruzhin, Tchernobil, Linitz etc) were not followers of the Chadash assur Min hatore shita of the Chasam Sofer.
Totally commited to Chassiduth and their rebbes (more than the other groups)these groups were not in a Separatist mode of Pressburg-Munkatch and Sighet.I also doubt that they were in the frum Chnokishe mode of Belz etc in Galicia. (Don't take this as a criticism of Belz, please !) But they were just as frum with at the same time being "normalli".
I also must add that I sometimes wonder how much so called Hungarian Chassidim knew about Chassiduth besides mofesim.
Today most of the Chassidic olam are Hungarians and they think that the Chasam Sofer was a Chasid and the Besht came along as an obscurantist against Modernity.

chchick said...

Why does it seem as if the one in the center only has a mustache and no beard?

berl, crown heights said...

chchick,
how about a clicking to see the enlarged picture before asking stupid questions? what a novel idea!

Hirshel Tzig said...

be nice to the lady, Berl.

It does look like he has no beard, and Davka when enlarged. But that could just be the way his beard grew, or didn't grow.

chchick said...

BTW, before making stupid accusations I DID bother to enlarge the photo, and DID assume that it was possible that his beard was quite small or light colored. He might also be very young in the photo and hence have not much growth. I know that I have also seen photos of a Rebbe that had no beard whatsoever, perhaps he suffers from alopecia? Does anyone know to whom I am refering to?

Hirshel Tzig said...

That would be the Kaliver Rebbe from Israel; and no, it's not alocia, it's Nazipecia, if you know what I mean.

chchick said...

So I heard, but I never did figure out what exactly they did to him that stopped the growth of his hair. Do you have any idea? It's probably very irrelevant but I always did wonder.

U' N' said...

Tzig,

Congratulations, this post proved - again - that there is absolutely nothing that the dreck you picked up from Tzemach and FM won't use in their deranged, hateful, antisemitic and distorting orgies. In fact, Chasam-Soiferishe Rabonim, so much derided here by the same filthy lowlives, wore pretty much same garb, a nice clean suit, a tie and a Hamburger. The "suit" is not a "Deutsche Anzug" (a la Rashab), but a long lapserdak; a walking stick being a rebbishe "standard" since 1700s. There is no news that Russishe, Ukrainishe and Litvishe sheine yidden (mit gelt) dressed differently from Poilishe and Galiciane honnyoks (one of the reasons why Sanz/Sadiger and Kock/Ryzhin "machlokes" took place) - although only an idiot would use that to deride either group. On the other hand, amcho yidden, the poor ones, dressed all the same, in rags and a kashketl to boot.

It would be nice though if you published a source of a photo along with the photo itself, especially when you make a claim to the identity of people pictured.

Hirshel Tzig said...

U N

I knew I should've stuck with Chaim Berlin. I had a week or so of Menucheh.....

I'll ask you not to refer to commenters as "Drek."

The rekkel you're right about, but the pants, shoes, and vest seems a bit too modern with the cutaway style and all. The same goes for the hat; it was MODERN at the turn of the 20th Century. The stick too seems not like the sticks the Rebbes used, rather that of a "gentleman."

The source is Nisht Vichtig.

chchick said...

How do you get any work done like this?

Hirshel Tzig said...

please, no questions about work.

U' N' said...

Tzig,

I won't refer to the sturmerishe lying drek as drek; i'll rather use the term "she-einom mizera Yisroel"; mimeila it'll be a given who is referenced.

What exactly makes you an expert on what was "modern" at the turn of the century - not that people in that region (of which you know nothing, and the she-einom mizera Yisroel know even less) used the term "modern" in a derogatory sense ? The shoes, for one, aren't modern at all - they don't have shoelaces, as is many rebbishe a custom until this day, for reasons known. The rekl is worn right-on-left and not otherwise, which is the canary in the mine of modernkeyt. The vest is no more modern then the rest worn by Rashab in the only known picture. So your motzie shem r'a is falling apart, and all out of ignorance. Why couldn't you just post the damn picture without making these ridiculous, dumb and partisan comments ? Do you really rely on eirev rav she-einom mizera Yehudim whose chayus comes from spitting on people from 200 years ago based on geography ?

And another question, to the wannabe belarusen - at what point did Rashab's son, OB"M, abandon the "MODERN" look and adopt the chonyokisher look, complete with a Tchulent Top hat, a spodik and a Poilishe lapserdak all the way to the ground ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm no expert, but i do know differences, that much skills I have. The fact that he sat with two non-immediate family members for a picture tells me a lot. I don' think there are pictures of Reb Aron Belzer zt"l with 2 cousins posing like that. The fact that his Rekkel - Rechts af Links or otherwise - is open like that, and the picture is full length tells me something, expert or not. The grey trousers I guess were also Chenyokish, right?

I'm not sure why you're so hung up about the Rashab N"E, he was far from modern, even in dress. The dress he wore he Yarshened from his father, The MaHaRaSH N"Esomething you'd know nothing about.

An Ailmesher said...

u'n' sounds like he's nuts.

One question, I see the term Chagas used above for non Lubavitcher chassidim. Do the other chassidim call themselves Chagas chassidim? If not, they should thank Lubavitch for providing a name for them.

U' N' said...

Tzig, you should stop measuring people of whom you know nothing with your filthy hungarian stick. They were not "chonyokish", nobody claimed that; certainly not by Belzer or Gerer standard (which the first commentator here attributes, erroneously and spitefully, to "hungarians"). Yes, there are pictures of tzaddikim of old generation with the lapserdak wide open - I'm not going to cite names here, so that the mamzeirim don't get an excuse to deride yet another good name. Don't know what you make of the fact that he's "pictured with 2 cousins" - you're going out of your skin to come up with an amasla to ridicule them; nu nu.

The reason I mention Rashab is that on the only know photo of him, most of his dress matches what's seen at the picture here - including the "modern" hat, and yet the two faced snakes selectively choose to make their snide remarks when they try to pitch one tsaddik against another. So what ? There is no fault with anyone except you and your congregants the evil eyed talmidei Bil'am who without shame will use anything and anyone to make their dumb point.

If you remember, they put a claim of "modern dress" against the heilige Rizhiner, zts"l; but it said nothing about him and a whole lot about people who.

Where did you get the Maharash's dress story, at the cool aid dispenser ? Don't project yourself, people of those days weren't monkeys bent on copycatting, they were what they felt like wearing - ergo such a difference between Rashab and Rayatz, which you conveniently failed to explain.

Hirshel Tzig said...

1) My stick isn't filthy. Hungarian but not filthy. You confuse me with the Transylvanians.

2) I never said that his mode was "problematic," VeAderaba.

3) The MaHaRaSH changed from Darkei Oviv and stopped wearing Bigdei Lovon. Call it Kool-Aid if you wish, but that doesn't change reality, then again you live in a make-believe world, so maybe if you believe otherwise it'll change for you.

4) Stop imagining claims of whatever where there are none. You'd be surprised how often you and Schneur would agree.

berl, crown heights said...

filthy slavic 'wash-basin,'
why are you attacking schneur? did he insult anyone? did he ever even address your chazershe tzuroh?

SatmarTC said...

u n
whay are you so wild?
Divrei Chachomim benachas nishmoim

U' N' said...

Tzig,

3) If Maharash stopped wearing Bigdei Lovon, that doesn't mean that he wore a hamburger hat and a golden chain. Why do you need to make things up as you go ? Or do you have a source saying that Rashab dressed just like his father ?

4) Perhaps, perhaps not. Look at the first comment here - what is this babble about Chasam Sofer and Sighet ? This man apparently built a whole straw man shita in his head about Chasam Sofer and "chodosh ossur mh'T" and whatever other quote taken out of context he decided to abuse, and then proceeded to set up an "us vs. them" using pictured tsaddikim as an example of "us" (Chabad being the flagship of us, of course), and some abstract separatist "Hungarians" (what else) as them. Note further that he's cautious not to G-d forbid criticise Belz - apparently, Belz isn't like Sighet who is a free for all. And then he proceeds to customarily deride the fake Hungarian "Chassidim" who aren't Chassidim at all and know nothing from Chassidus besides maybe mofsim, and so on with gratuitous libel and spewing of snide. None of that caught your attention, apparently; you seem to take pleasure in picking up neutral and very interesting things of old and using them to defecate onצור ילדך. Shame isn't your virtue, eh.

The sheer idiocy of his fake geographics and total ignorance of dynamics of those times isn't even worth mentioning. But what's interesting is that whatever one's opinion of Satmar may be, one thing is clear : in this day and age, nothing makes the chitzoinim squirm with hate and fear more then mentioning even a remote hint of the S word. They start gagging worse then mice in Kerestir. Tzemach, Shemarya, Berel der Mamzer, Shneur, and even Mr. Tzig all unite; and from that alone much is to be learned.

Berel - did they tell you what "אסור לבא בקהל" means ? If you want to eventually end up in a keiver Yisroel, you should start working on it, משום מעשה שהיה.

U' N' said...

satmartc :
איך בין נישט קײן חכם, אָבער צוײ זאכן װייס איך - במקום חילול ה' אין חולקין כבוד; און װען מען באשמוצט יענעם מיט ליגנט מען דארף זיך מוסר נפש זײן עד אין שיעור.

Guravitzer said...

אבער וואו שטייט במקום חילול ה' המדומה פארליט מען די קעפ און מען שרייט אן שכל?

Anonymous said...

When one sees how ertain circles make such a big deal about various styles of clothing, etc., is it any wonder that 90% have escaped the asylum?

U' N' said...

.בײ מיר איז דאָס נישט ריב לא לו וד"ל

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
This UN guy is still in the New Year hangover mode, its simple is the only religious organization that at its core is hate sinas yisroel, I haven't studied Islam yet. Don"t come up with bikur cholim etc.. its all a facade, the core is hate and hate for other shomrie torah that are ready to love another jew. Reb Yoel's magnum opus is into making all of Klal Yisroel into Apikorsim and all Manhigie Yisroel are like Achov.

BTW
This all discussion of the Rebbe Reshabs dress code is the biggest insult for his personality, He was the pure Chabadnik the opposite of Chitzonios

Anonymous said...

Are these pictures in the 2 large coffee table books that was put out by some Twersky in Queens ?
I heard that the New Square Rebbe went ballistic on the author of the book, there are many pictures in their that don't agree the picture he wants to portray of Chernobil.

Hirshel Tzig said...

They are, but I don't think the Skverrer Rebbe went "ballistic" about it. After all, it's a tremendous work that brings Koved to Skver and to all of Chernobyl.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
You are not getting it, his father had a agenda to paint the whole of Chernobel as beyond, and this yankee put out a book with Rebbes that were worse then most Chasidic courts, I liked the picture of Twersky the Bostoner Tolner as clean shaven boy and the picture of him sitting with Reb Motel of Rachmistrivker of yerushalem

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous

Chas VeSholom! A work like that for a silly agenda?! Oh please. What a silly comment to make. He did it for Kovod Bais Chernobyl, all of the branches. Skver is not the only representative of Chernobyl, you know.

Anonymous said...

I am not skver but I say that book was wrong VD"L, and by the way its imssible to understand the nisoyen those years in russia. EMES RUSSIAN CHUSID'L

thanbo said...

Is there any Trisker presence in Brooklyn? Or Chernoble that wasn't mixed in with others (as you say, Sqvira is more Bellerose, etc.)? As I'm given to understand that Trisker is ideologically close to its ancestor Chernoble. It seems likely that my chassidish great grandfather in Rozhishche would have been Trisker, as that was the main Chassidus in that town (Turiisk is 40 miles away).