Sunday, December 2, 2007

Conflicts, Conflicts

There's this website that's dedicated to "explaining" to the Dati-LeUmi world the errs of their ways when it comes to the State and Zionism. So they quote all kinds of Rabbonim and Gedolim who made all kinds of statements, basically trying to scare them into abandoning what they've been taught. It's a commendable idea, one that the Rebbe was basically for. He often said that believing that the State is Aschalta DeGeulah is MeAkev the Geulah, so discouraging belief is a good thing. In my Google search on 20 Kislev, the Yohrtzeit of the last Pachad Yitzchok (not the Boyaner) I came across the following site that has quotes from him about the State, although he considered himself a Talmid and MeKabel of Harav Kook, (Actually, he tried to cover it up....) and I doubt there was a whole lot of kano'us going at YRCB in those years. In any case here's what they bring:

כשקרא מרן ה"פחד יצחק" על עובדת מחויבותם של רבני ודייני הרבנות החילונית הראשית להישבע
אמונים למדינה אמר: "יש להאמין לי כשקראתי בבוקר על הנ"ל בכיתי כתינוק בן יומו ממש. כל הפרוצדורה של השבעת אמונים למדינה- וואס פאר אן אינשיקעניש איז דאס? מי שמע מעולם על השבעת אמונים של דיין בישראל- לא רק למדינה, אלא לשום אדם, לשום גוף או לשום דבר- מלבד לדיני השלחן ערוך?! אין כאן אלא חיקוי זול להצהרה האנגלו-סקסונית כשאדם מתמנה למשרה ממשלתית" (ספר הזכרון למרן ה"פחד יצחק", עמ' מג')

Free Translation: When Moron the Pachad Yitzchok (Rav Y Hutner - HT) read about the Rabbonim and Dayonim of the Chief (secular??) Rabbinate needing to swear allegiance to the State he said: "Believe me; when I read about it this morning I cried like an infant. What kind of "Onshikinesh" is this? Whoever heard of a Rov or Dayan swearing allegiance to anything but the Shulchan Aruch? This is nothing but a cheap immitation of the Anglo-Saxon declaration, where a Government minister swears allegiance when he gets elected." (Sefer HaZikaron LeMoron HaPachad Yitzchok pg 43)

A fair statement, but I'm not quite sure how that's supposed to dissuade a sworn Mizrachi guy from abandoning his beliefs. Anyway, on one of my browsing sessions I came across some interesting photos of just such a ceremony, where the Rabbonim and Dayonim swore allegiance to the State in a ceremony presided over by President Zalman Shazar. Of course we have the usual "suspects," such as Rav Ovadia Yosef, but we also have unusual suspects, who I guess didn't think it was such an "Onshikinesh" after all. We always knew that he sat on the "Secular" Chief Rabbinate but we never thought of it in the context of swearing allegiance to the State of Israel, we thought he was doing a job, no more. But now it all takes on a whole different perspective, he was defying not only the Brisker Rov all those years, and the Brisker - true to form - still haven't forgiven him no matter what the rest of the Yeshivishers say, but also the Pachad Yitzchok. We also know that although he eventually resigned from the Rabbinate after the issue with Rabbi Goren being Mattir the Mamzerim, he never thought twice when swearing allegiance. So the next time you see Reb Aron Schechter visit Rav Elyashiv ask him how he visits the man who defied the man he succeeded.

(Photo from BeChadrei Charedim, Hydepark)

See anybody famous here?! like the man second from right with white beard, "up" hat and glasses?


Michoel said...

This post is just to stupid, from beginning to end. Can you please find something to do with your life?

gedolims R us said...

Yep. It's gonna be interesting to see how Artscroll (and the Yated) write about the 20-25 years that he spent as an employee of the rabbanut.

(My guess? That whole period will be skipped.)

Anonymous said...

Do you know why your a fool? Its because you fail to miss a most basic point. Litvishe Bnei Torah are not like chassidim, who see only a party line nd nothing else. Hence a silly immature clown that screams the right words, be it 'zionishe nais' or 'yechi hamelech' is respected. By true Bnei Torah, party line is second to true maalos; Torah learning, yiras shamayim and kedushah. RYSE is a kodosh vetahor who hs never stopped learning.

We're bigger than that Tzig, unlike you and your sorry ilk.

Anonymous said...

i am very friendly with the decendants of reb hersh peysech frank who know rav eliyshiv very well. when i told them what says in wilikipedia that the moron resigned over rav goren - they told me its narishkayt. he was in rabanut until his retirement and he still gets the ex dayan salary which also covers his phone bills and allows him to learn bemenucha. if he would have resigned before retirement he would not have been getting it.

ex mishichist said...

I heard that because of idiots like you,Tzig, they just turned the oven on again,in yenner velt and they are blaming the Rebbe for his chassidim not having respects for any rabbonim.
Tzig:You sure the Rebbe is 'shepping' nachas from your dirt?

SDR said...

Binyomin said...

Lets list the rabbonim that the Tzig has tried to besmirch.
Rav Hutner
Rav Elyoshiv
Rav Shach
Chazon Ish
And quite a few more .
Where did he learn/see this type of hanhogo?
In Lubavitch!
What does this say about Lubavitch?
Tziggy, the more I read your blog, the more I feel that Lubavitch is 'mechutz lamachaneh'.A student as Rebbe??I guess thats why they have to lash out against people who always learned without a 12 year gap in their resume.

Hymie the Fantastic said...

Its not Tzig's fault--the "rebbe" (with a lower case "r")--was mivayesh the CI b'rabim even when the latter was already niftar. And let's not get into what he said about Rav Shach and other gaonim and tzadikim. But CI and his ilk are not into introspection, propriety and appropriate behavior toward people OUTSIDE Chabad, even those millions of times greater than the "rebbe" would have ever began to fathom.

And this is not even the reason they are not Jews. Don't even let us get us started with their . . . "beliefs."

support ponovezh said...

2 comments on angry poison spewing mrons like hymie.
iam the yungerman from ponovezh- i already told you what my RAm told me about the hymie and the crazy anonymous about their nausiating way of degrading jews even if they dont agree with hashkofo. iam happy to tell you that just like in lubavitch the "boyreinu yotzreinu " people dont represent anyone - not the meshichisten and not anyone in lubavitch - hymie and the angry aanonymous dont represnt anyone in the authentic jewish hashkofo world. as a misnaged i am embarossed of them.
secondly - they scream that the Lubav rebbe insulted rav shakh and the CI - i spoke about this to rav povarsky - he showed me the 2 sichas - one in 1950's and one in 1982 about rav shakh - he didnt think it was degrading to them at all - he showed me when the rebbe quoted CI in his likutey sichos.
i also cannot see any similarity between tsig writing about Rav Eliashiv and others and the way these to chilul- hashemniks write about the rebbe.
i love the litvishe derech but i am sick of some people who probably are total amaratzim and never substantiate anything they write and get excited when something is quoted just out of historic interst and not to degrade.
i was the one that wrote in about the eyniklach or r' hirsh peisach telling me that horav rliyahivs retiring was nothing to do with r goren - was i chas vesholom insulting r elyashiv? just making a historic observation. you 2 morons on the other hand have not once said anything that an intelligent ( let aone frum ) person can apreciate. as r yosef dov so writely wrote - you are nebich cases - lonely haters who dont have any daas torah only your worped desire for hatred.
i would really ask tsig on behalf of a few people who wrote in - dont allow such words to be posted - its not sensorship - its keeping a certain standard. you will eventually loose more normal people if you will continue.
drop hymie and the moronic anonymous

Real Bobover said...

support; is your spellcheck down?

ponovezh said...

to real bobover - sorry - i was in a rush and werent watching the spelling - i also dont have spell check in this box

Maran NOT Moron said...

No-one has ever used the word "Moron" for Rav Hutner, it is always "Maran" so quit trying to squeeze in backhnaded insults.

Reb Aron Schechter visits Rav Elyashiv said...

"So the next time you see Reb Aron Schechter visit Rav Elyashiv ask him how he visits the man who defied the man he succeeded."

Why would anyone want to ask Rabbi Schechter such a nurishkeit? when it's known that he saved Rav Elyashiv's life by flying the best cardiac doctor and equipment from America to Israel to operate on Rav Elyashiv blocked heart (while everybody else was saying kapitlech tillim -- Rav Aron Schechter was thinking like a doctor) a few years ago and give Rav Elyashiv a new lease of life, bli ayin hara.

And besides, Reb Aron is called Rav Aron nowadays and it is impossible for anyone to approach him with such chutzpah (ask any Rebbe, Rabbi, Rosh Yeshiva and askan who has had to deal with him) unless they are hell-bent on self-destruction, because he is capable of tearing his enemies from limb to limb.

By the way, you may not know it, but Rav Aron Schechter is a big boki in Tanya and the Shulchan Oruch Harav is an official sefer found in the Chaim Berlin Bais Medrash, and he has been know to bring ra'ayos from the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Oruch Harav to shlog up other Litvishe achronim in his complex shiurim.

Do not underestimate this Jew, he has a deep mind and a long reach... and is backed by plenty of powerful people everywhere.

Anonymous said...

hymie - everytime you write i think of kol hapoisel bemumoi poisel. if you have learnt gemoro you will realise how you are bashmutsing yourself.

ponovezh said...

hey anonymous - RYSE is kodosh vetohor who never stopped learning - i didnt see how anyone said otherwise. you are on the other hand dont give him much credit. ask rav efrati or rav morgenstern or his talmid rav sherman what RYSE says about people who talk like you, but then i dont think you care what he says otherwise you would bother to find out before you make a total fool of yourself.

Hymie the Messiah said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hymie the Moshiach said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hirshel Tzig said...


as you can see I've deleted your last 2 comments, and allowed for all to see that they've been deleted. There's only so much a person can take. If you learn how to write a coherent sentence then maybe we'll allow it.

Hymie is God Clothed in a Man's Body said...

My sentences are coherent. In fact, my sentences are crafted better than yours. That's not the problem. The problem is you are a blithering fool who cannot handle truth. You are so indoctrinated with sadistic hate-filled evil you were taught that you cannot look at yourself, at the posts you wrote and admit how shamefully you behaved.

Hymie is Moshiach Vadai said...

. . .if you want to write about being "coherent" look back at the liar who posted his "experiences" in Ponovez.

Hirshel Tzig said...


we're Ashkenazim here, we don't say Maran.

ponovezh said...

its just so holerious to see hymie telling anyone they ate full of hate. with the exception of anonymous he is the only one that has sina and kina permeate his whole ebing. and by the way i didnt lie about one word

ponovezh said...

but then hymie would call every litvishe godol also a lier if he wouldnt live up to his sina

Moshiach Vadai according to the Rambam said...

>>but then hymie would call every litvishe godol also a lier if he wouldnt live up to his sina

EXACTLY my curious little friend. And that is because this is not about sinah. This is about calling vindictive, hateful behaviour for what it is: vindictive and hateful.

Hirshel Tzig said...

nobody but you is hateful, Hymen, some of us may have Taynes to some people, that's all.