Thursday, December 20, 2007

Lessons from ספינקא (modified)




I guess that somehow yesterday's developments in Los Angeles were brought about by my writing about them just the day before. Commenter "snag10" in yesterday's comments section called him a sc--b-g. Very nice of him to say that, I guess only those darn Chassidim do this, right? The truth is I was thinking how I should be affected by that story, and I feel that I am affected, even after all those years, since I still have some connection to them. After all Girseh DeYankusa is no small matter, and it was under those auspices that I got that Girseh, some of it that'll never leave me. Which brings me to another point; What's with the Koach HaPoel BeNif'ol? How was my Yiras Shomayim affected by that money, and was my education the equivalent of all those Mosdos in the Holy Land that are Korea LeBaal (like the Kanoyim like to say,) and is Yesudosoy BeHarrerei Not Kodesh? Can I somehow blame my lack thereof on this? There is a Vort to that effect from the Rebbe Reb Meilech zt"l, about children not turning out "Vi es darf tzu zein" because they were raised on Gegazelete Gelt. I realize this isn't Gegazelt, since it's only "evasive Gelt," but still, altz "Dina DeMalchusa Dina" it must have some kind of adverse affect, no? But I digress.

They've come a long way since I was there. When I left after Kitah Tes they were experiencing a downturn in the Mesivta, and the Yeshivah Gedola. I had already left the Cheder building so I don't quite remember what was happening on that end. Today's highly successful Kolel was getting underway, it had a few good years under its belt, but nothing like it is today, the largest (I think) Kolel in Boro Park, no small accomplishment. The Cheder happened to have a very good name when I was there, with an emphasis on instilling good Middos in students, albeit by using the stick sometimes, - OK, more than sometimes - but still, that was the idea, to raise good, well-behaved kids. They did succeed to some degree; we weren't the Vilde Chayes that kids from other Chadorim were known to be (that's me as a Spinka Cheder Yingel talking, not as a Lubavitcher) yet we were almost as "Chassidish." In camp we played Baseball - at least we tried, and we went on all kinds of trips, including "major trips" to places like Dorney Park and HersheyPark. Yet we still spoke Yiddish while playing ball (which is a good thing) and had a serious learning schedule in camp too, complete with Rebbes - the same as all year round(!), wearing Chalatlech, and close to 6 hours of learning. Then, some years later, things began to happen that signaled the end of the relatively normal and easy going days in Mosdos Spinka, they realized they weren't "frim/chassidish" enough.

You may ask: "Why do you go on about what they did in class and camp, why is this pertinent to our discussion about current events?" It's very simple, friends, it's all part of the same problem, and all are symptoms of the same disease. It's no coincidence that as soon as the supposed "frumkeit" set in so did the Dreidlach and funny business. The times coincide with the passing of Reb Yankev Yosef, so maybe that's the reason for the changes, I don't know, I was a clueless kid, really clueless. At first they discovered new dinim in Shulchan Aruch like prohibiting live music in Camp. For years we had the Stoliner Kol Rinah band (lead by Mr Klitnick on Alto Sax!) play in camp on Motzoei Shabbos Nachamu as well as the last night of camp at the banquet, then one year it was decided that we had a churban beis hamikdosh and were forbidden to dance to live music. There are many more examples, but I don't want to bore you all with details. The clientelle of the Yeshivah soon started to change as well. Gone was the Boro Park kid that had a Hungarian/Chassidishe background, and in came the "Tchoolent Tup," and the Tchoolent Tup likes things his way. At the same time all kinds of shvitzers started to work at the offices there, and as Gaboyim there, and that spelled trouble. These characters started to bring to Spinka methods they learned in other circles, and the result is the events before us today, terrible events that are destroying families.

The lessons we can learn are as follows: I believe that the root of the problem is the fact that they wanted (or at least went along with the idea brought forth by others) to build themselves a Branzhe that'll produce Sapinker Chassidim like in Di Heim, only in the old days it didn't happen through Yeshivos, people who lived in the region were Chassidim, and that's the way they stayed. The need to build a Chassidus and to have large crowds at Tishen and children's weddings caused them to discover "Frumkeit", and later to discover "Frumme" means of maintaining his Mosdos. It may seem like a stretch and coincidence to some of you, but I believe I'm correct here. I also don't believe that they were somehow forced into this situation because they had such a strong desire to educate Yiddishe Kinder no matter what the cost, and no matter the end results. Lots of other good Chadorim - like Skolye and Stutshin - who had built good names for themselves had to close down to the dismay of parents simply because they couldn't cover the budget. I'm sure they too could've discovered these new means but they chose not to, and to their credit. I guess what's the point of having a Cheder/Yeshivah if the end result is you're not around to enjoy it. Some of today's most successful groups and Chaburos do it without as much a Shul of their own, especially not a Talmud Torah, others fail to learn the lessons very clearly laid out here....

40 comments:

Hirshel Tzig said...

15 CommentsClose this window Jump to comment form
The Bray of Fundie said...
Courageous connection of the dots. It's time for the spiritual heirs of East-European Jews to get over their vestigal adversarial fear and loathing of Goyisher governmental bodies and renounce an attitude that it is the greatest Mitzvah to rob said bodies blind. For worse, and as this is a medineh shel khesed having all kinds of helpful social -welfare programs and lacking pogroms and Jew-specific confiscatory taxation, for better, 21st century USA aint der alter heim.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:35:00 AM


Hirshel Tzig said...
btw

in the picture I believe the young man on the right is Reb Hershelle Spinker zt"l, his daughter's son.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:36:00 AM


U' N' said...
1. Returning other people's donations is the way _all_ mosdos with few exceptions operate. Your today's mosdos included. And while uncle Sam may not like it, it's hardly a "sin" on any scale of magnitude for any reasons other then the very unpleasant PR and prison time. But nobody was defrauded, no money was stolen and federal government is known for their knack to prosecute high profile frum people at any cost and with any mechanism available.

2. The attitude of this post, it's insinuations and it's detachment from reality and towards a make-belief world populated by evil satmers and good but weak antisatmers or whathaveyou put you on the same level, if not worse, then the person whose name you'd rather not mention. You even share figures of speech and sentences. Rather disgusting pattern, but reassuring in a certain way. AT & Bros takeh must be Nesiei haDor.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:02:00 PM


Hirshel Tzig said...
SpongeBoss:

you're an ignorant who believes he's entitled, and it's the evil Government that has no better way to spend its time than to harass Umshuldige Jews.

I'm speaking of one example, where I know the goings on not just because I once learned there, and you're using the "poor Satmar" defense. You don't belong to them so stop defending them when it's not necessary. I don't dance on their proverbial graves, and I don't attack them at every opportunity. If i'd wanted to I could've done that many times, but I don't. You on the other hand see attacks where they don't exist and are guided by an anti-Lubavitch knee-jerk approach.

Just answer the point made here.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:09:00 PM


Anonymous said...
can perents support a yeshiva did your father pay the full cost of your education or had other priorities

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:24:00 PM


Hirshel Tzig said...
unlike you we never meddled in our parents' affairs, so I don't know what or whom he paid. In any case there was no NEED for a Spinka Cheder, if they couldn't hack it then close up shop. His brother did that in Israel.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:26:00 PM


U' N' said...
goat, this sentence does not compute in english language - who is ignorant, who is entitled and to what. When you'll express yourself in understandable language, your points may or may not be worth addressing.

When you learned there, you were a little shmuk who grew up to be a big shmuk but who still has absolutely no real clue what and why happened. You're trying to excuse your failures by pinning them on evil satmars, in the most pathetic and vile fashion, accusing these abstract satmars of derailing the beautiful oasys of liberal thought called Spinka/BP which evil satmar criminals turned into a lawless priton for money laundering (you could as well through in homosexuality, drugs and animal abuse in the mix - to get your point across to a wider audience). And now they dragged the rebbe into their vile satmarial tenets.

Anyone with half a brain and no bias would see the ridiculousness, baseless venom and Sinas Am-hooretz leT"ch coming from this post. You and your ilk are the "roidef", making up BS legends from distortion of fact, fabricated memories and figments of their sick imagination and using that to pin own pathetic failures in life, be it "marrying a gezhe" or being "number last" in cheider, on the easy prey - "satmars", "rabbis", or even "chabad" for that matter. By these vicious posts, you put yourself on the other side of the barricades, by becoming the proverbial A"H in the worst sense of the word.

And you can mail your advice "close up shop if they can't hack up" to every member and wannabe member of the shluchim union.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:46:00 PM


Anonymous said...
Kinas soifrim Tarba Chohma ,chadorim are needed and it is the parents obligation to finance it if they have the money and their priorities are not mixed up,and the takona from reb Yeshua ben Gemala was that the poor kids education was the obligation of the community if the communtyhas the right priorities

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:50:00 PM


zezmir said...
Spinka, like all the “Heimisher Chassidim,” moved to the right on farfrumtkeit issues.

This Rebbe is probably one of the most successful fundraisers around - he pulls in mega-bucks. Of course, the primary goal is kovod and power, but so what? How is that different than the rest? He's not the biggest genius, and he was warned that they were investigating him 3 years ago, but he wasn’t worried. Whatever.

Lemaysa, they just don’t get it. They aren’t mechunach in matters of right vs wrong. Money matters are kleine aveiralach at best. It’s sad that so many people get this rotten education, but azoi get es. The sadder thing is that not even one choshuve rov speaks out about basic baseline honesty – but maybe now someone will realize that it’s important to produce ehriche folks and not just frum folks… (I’m not holding my breath though)

Hey, his education wasn’t a total waste, at least he’s probably good at mitzva tantzen (or isn’t he?)

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:50:00 PM


Hirshel Tzig said...
PailBoss:

I said: you're an ignorant fool who believes he's entitled, and it's the evil Government that has no better way to spend its time than to harass Umshuldige Jews.

I had left out the word fool. Sorry.

You know nothing of the situation there yet have the unmitigated gall to attack me. How dare you?! SheAl NeOlecho MeyAl Raglecho when you speak to me!

It's like me speaking about the going on at Bishop Kearney HS LeHavdil.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:51:00 PM


Hirshel Tzig said...
Anonymous 12:50

so is the priorities the way it's being done now? We're not speaking about being MeGazem in Mispar HaTalmidim here. This was the fault of greedy Gevirim who wanted tax deductions who suckered the people in charge by waving some cash in their faces.

So tell me, a guy making 60k with 7 kids is supposed to pay how much in tuition?

Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:56:00 PM


berl, crown heights said...
tzig,
I think at a time when a yid is arrested for such things – be he an unzerer oder a fremder - the only appropriate reaction is an expression of sympathy and a prayer for his complete deliverance. I also do not see any purpose in the general negativity. So the guy wants to build a large chasidus, complete with large crowds at his tishen. Mah bechach?
I also want to remind you that the Rebbe always at every opportunity encouraged assorted bansha"kim to rebuilt the chatzeireis - chatzeirim :) of their predecessors...

Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:52:00 PM


U' N' said...
Goat, I spent more time in bp spinke then you could imagine, and I know better then I'd like to people who work in those mosdos right now and not 20 years ago. But that's not even necessary to assess the BS statements of yours; you just keep regurgitating same old fabrications as everyone else, trying to justify this sina with a twist on a "personal experience"; but some things just don't add up.

And the claim of Satmar ever being frummer then Spinka is just ridiculous; it's the Spinka base - Spitzers, Feketes, Schwartzes - all plachige biber hitn with shwartze glezer and every other pichevke of farfrumte Zsydaczow Marmaroser or Galicianer who joined Satmar - a kehila of mostly moderate hungarian dudes wearing kortze reckelech and chult-tops - a variation of a hamburger and by no means a farfrumte levush. You're full of it, ignorance and venom.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:56:00 PM


berl, crown heights said...
ignorant and vile 'boss of wash-basins',
I have first-hand knowledge of the financial operations of quite a few meisdeis and none of them pull these shtikers; everyone today knows the dangers involved (and that the rewards are simply not worth the risks), so shut you stupid mouth, please.
I am willing to bet that never in your entire miserable bitter life did you actually see the operations of any meisod from the inside - no one would be stupid enough to let a specimen of eirev rav like yourself up close lifenai ulefenim.

Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:03:00 PM


berl, crown heights said...
oops, it should be lifenai velifenim

Thursday, December 20, 2007 2:14:00 PM

Hirshel Tzig said...

as you can see I modified the post and added all the comments from the original one as 1 long comment.

Anonymous said...

the answer for all this problems will be vouchers, most politicans are hostaged by the powerfull teachers union, If we didn't get in the presidency of bush the 2nd we will unfortunately never get it.
the only problem with vouchers is, that we don't need the Rebbes anymore, every Dick and harry will be able to open a mossed

spinka alumnus said...

Hey hirshel,
How long ago did you learn in Spinka cheder?

I was there from approximately 89-92.
some of the Rebeiim i remember are:
Schwartz, Rokeach,
I don't remember much of the English teachers besides Lang and the principal , Mr. Simon. Then there was the Menahel of course, Leibish Rubin.

I have some fond memories of Spinka camp. It was quite open minded. The counselors were all 'geshmake' guys from yeshivas like torah vodaas, chaim berlin etc. The kids were a mixture of 'lange peyos' yiddish speakers and more modern kids who conversed in English. Everything did indeed change when I left, so i heard. The head-counselor was this Bobover guy whose name excapes me at the moment.

Michoel said...

The lashon s--- bag is so terribly untznius, nivel peh, is certainly worthy of losing 70 years of Olam haba. Writing it in a blog might be worse than being motzi it b'peh. If by snag, you mean litvak, it is also offensive that you connect his bad language to his being a litvak. In any case, YOU should not have repeated it. Do the right thing and edit that.

The Bray of Fundie said...

The problem is sytemic. The same attitude that demonizes goyim and their governments demonizes khokhmas HaGoyim. One who pursues higher secular education, you know the kind that is a. portable and b. offers the benefits of making a better living without becoming a wheeling-dealing hondler is a shaigitz. One who decides harbeh uhsoo k'Reb Shimon v'loi ulsuh b'yodom and wants to go out to work is not a Ben Torah (Teyreh).

What a tragic waste of human resources! Fine minds , Yiddishe kep, living in the free-est and most opportunistic ,yet highest-cost-of-living society ever encountered in our long bittereh golus are confronted with a "Sophie's Choice" of subsistence low-paying jobs that they are way overqualified for on the one hand or geneyvisheh shtick to live and give b'kovidik on the other.

רבש"עּּ מה יעשה הבן ולא יחטא?

Somethings gotta give. IMHuO we Charedim really need to be showing some more institutional self-confidence in our doiros ability to confront modernity and yet retain yiras shomayim and to revert to an educational system informed by some modified Hirschian vision of

יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ שיגיעת שניהם משכחת עון

I've heard Spinka Kollel in BP has 300 yungerleit. If there were only 100 yungerleit in Kollel and 200 yungrleit alumni working as attorneys, CPAs, Physicians and engineers I think that both the Kollel and the business ethics of the Kollel's fundraising would be of superior, more pristine quality.

I sell Cameras said...

Bray

CPAs? Attorneys?! Meileh working at B&H, nu. But to get a job that requires education? Hashem Yishmor, don't you know we're all walking sticks of dynamite that once we get close to that lighter are set to explode? Professional Jobs are instant death for us, at least that's what we're told.

The Bray of Fundie said...

When was the last time someone from the Washington Heights Breuer's community (people of impeccable frumkeit BTW) was caught making a khilul HaShem through finacial improprieties?

Jus' wonderin'?

(For the skeptics out there...no I'm not a Yekke myself.)

Hirshel Tzig said...

Fundie

That's easy, they're bunch of alte zetzers now, their children in Teaneck and Lakewood I don't think are that straight.

The Bray of Fundie said...

I pity you "I sell". I've heard how the taskmasters at B&H drive their employees like shklaffs and manipulate them with Jewish guilt.

Another great example of how the current system produces employers driven by the ideal of

ועשית הישר והטוב ודרכיה דרכי נועם
*SNORT*

It doesn't matter if your a slumlord dealing with minorities or a big businessmen dealing with zaidinah yungerleit. The current system produces "Bosses" who view all those around them as something sub-human, as tools for their own exploitation and enrichment. And why shoudn't they? They've got all their under-educated, unable-to-take-their-skills-elsewhere emplyees over a barrel.

The Bray of Fundie said...

HT- You're right. Khaval they traded in their parents yashrus and ehrlikhkeit value system

בתבנית שור אוכל עשב

PS though I belong much more to the Lakewood camp, sadly I'd be willing to wager that the 2nd genration Yekkes of Teaneck have better Khoshen Mishpot track records than their brothers in Lakewood.

Hirshel Tzig said...

PS though I belong much more to the Lakewood camp, sadly I'd be willing to wager that the 2nd genration Yekkes of Teaneck have better Khoshen Mishpot track records than their brothers in Lakewood.

That's simple, Lakewood's been contaminated by those darn Hungarians! They ruin everything! Then again; were it not for them there'd be no Lakewood with thousands of Yungeleit. So what are we supposed to do?

Hungarians - You can't live with them and you can't live without them.....

The Bray of Fundie said...

Is the challenge ethnic or ideological?

The Bray of Fundie said...

Again, a more basic question is might it not "be better for the Jews" if BMG had 50% of the Yungerleit that it had now but 150%better business ethics (I don't accuse them of anything, I mean the society that they have come to represent)and 200% more economic prosperity?

How might this model impact:

A. the quality of the learning in BMG

B. The Shidduch crisis

C. The youth at risk crisis

D. The elitist Yeshiva K'tana admissions policies

E. The frequency of Frimmeh Yiden involving themselves in financial chicanery.

U' N' said...

tzig and berel, it must be that aronoff whose similar scandal got right about zero coverage here also got satmarized. And rubashkin, too. And every other convicted felon in BP or CH.

Bray et al : I have much respect for yekkes in general and WH in particular. But there is no simple answer to why less of them get caught breaking the law. It's culture and education, but it's also less children, more money, more job opportunities. There is no simple answer.

Hirshel Tzig said...

washbasin boss:

You'll grant me this much; That I don't write about scandal, nobody's scandals. The only reason I mentioned the Saplonca arrest was because it came so close to my writing about it the day before and people asked for my thoughts on it. Never did I say that only "they" do things like that. We all know about Aronov, that's not the point here. You'll agree that a Rebbe of Chassidim being held in prison 3000 miles from home is not the same as a layman/Askan/butcher.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I am however glad to see that there's a group of Jews that you respect, not just play devil's advocate for them.

The Bray of Fundie said...

It's culture and education, but it's also less children, more money, more job opportunities. There is no simple answer.

OTC it seems quite simple and that in essence you agree with me. 2 out of 3 aint bad. I'm not advocating reducing family size but why not let's the rest of us try emulating the Yekkes in terms of culture and education and see if we can't produce a dor that is less impoverished and scandal ridden?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Spinka Alumnus:

I left in the summer of '89, so I never had Rokeach as a Rebbe, and from what I hear I'm happy that I didn't.

The head counselor was Avrohom Zilbershtein, the guy who played baseball in his 3-button chalatel. He was a lot of fun once you got to know him.

I think Spinka switched to married, Chassidishe counselors only soon after I left.

reduce family size! said...

it's not easy instilling culture and paying for education when you have 10-11 kids.....

not that I'm for family planning, I'm just saying.......

U' N' said...

The bray - if I had my way, there would be an education model for everyone that wouldn't compromise between their way of life and their academic and professional growth not even a iota. But unfortunately I can't have my way, yet.

goat - you can be assured that if he was caught in the States and before "3T", it would take many, many phonecall, trips and envelopes by Shemtov to prevent that one from going all the way.

The Bray of Fundie said...

You are already paying for education if your kids are not in public school. I wasn't talking about concerts in Carnegie Hall. What I'm tayaning is that we need to revamp the value system so that the education our kids DO recieve is informed by Yekkisha values of frugality, no ostentatious shows of wealth, derekh eretz, ehrlikhkeit in business, engaging modernity rather than alternately running from and exploiting it and a no-nonsense /no-shortcuts approach to halokha and yiras shomayim.

U' N' said...

the bray - ostentatious shows of wealth aren't as widespread as some would like you to think, nor are they lauded. It's just that they take up too much on the landscape of people's minds.

The problem is the schism between "klei koidesh", people who never have to work a day except maybe by tutoring, and "balebatim" - a repulsive word - who, nebech, have to work. So when a bucher decided in his mind what he wants to do with his life, sometimes it's a total rejection of the particular kli-koidesh whom he did not like, along with ALL the values he tried to instill in him. And it becomes "husra haretsua" where going to work also implies breaking every rule in the book that can be broken without greater implications.

Ehrichkeit in business is a significant value throughout the whole frum world - even as bnei bil'am here tell you otherwise. People who earn their money honestly are respected, and people who do not get scorned - even if their money can buy them token kuvod, nobody really respects them.

But none of the above applies to this situation. Over the period of 10 years, it is alleged that the Spinke moisad made an average of $75k a year - a puny sum - by providing a service that shouldn't really be discussed on a public board.

Berele - when you stop shorring and start working for a living, and when your paycheck will go above the minimum wage, you'll suddenly find out things of which you never knew. Every other your "meisad" lifenai ulifenim operates by the Aronoff patent; it's just that you're not privy to know.

Hirshel Tzig said...

U N

I'll let Berl answer that slander against him, he'll do a better job. I just hope he sees what you wrote.

The Bray of Fundie said...

the bray - ostentatious shows of wealth aren't as widespread as some would like you to think,

Hmm. I guess the 5 Towns, Deal and June Street are figments of my imagination.

Of course they're are not widespread because WEALTH itself is not. Get real. How many frummer do you know, from Chasidish to MO, who "got it" don't "flaunt it"

Guravitzer said...

Bray, you have just revealed yourself as ignorant and malicious. Your comment about B&H was so patently false as to be unbelievable. Go back to DovBear where you can have your respect. Let plagiarism and maliciousness be munachim bemokom echod.

GEVALIA said...

She-Goat,
There you go again!
Crocodile tears about how you 'never hurt a fly'
Yoh?
How about just in the comments section insinuating against a melamed??
How about the one-sided hatchet job against Chaim Berlin, that besides being pure loshon hora even if true(a big one-sided 'riv loi loi')has hurt many people??
What riled me especially was the garbage you insinuate against Spinka, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(DELETED - MORON)

As you yourself said 'sha'al na'alecho'

Berel
Stop jumping in on stuff you have no idea about, ok? Hedyoit koifetz beroish.

U' N' said...

At least Berele has thrown off the yoke of fake ahava and speaks from his heart, eirev-rav and all. Man speaks what he thinks, not a little thing. About the rest, משיח אמת װעט עהר נעבעך נישט דערלעבען לכאורה , אבער נאך דעם פײגערען װעט מען קלאהר זעהען װער איז ערב רב און װער איז בוקר זעיר; but the moisad issue isn't worth discussing in public veda"l.

The bray - unfortunately, I don't even know where June St. is; I never was in Deal but I know they are an exception to many things, and Five Towns is nebech a five-pack ir hanidachas waiting for the right moment. That said, I even know people with seven figures in the bank who not just not show their wealth, they go an extra step of collecting foodstamps. A bigger problem are people who flaunt it but don't have it.

Hirshel Tzig said...

GEVALIA

if you'd have any beytzim you'd use your real name. I know I don't either, but since you're accusing me of being an ingrate to a great chesed from them (and since you seem to know me) you can at least identify yourself in an e-mail, at least while telling me that I'm a shtick dreque (with a French spelling, noch.) Otherwise you're another nobody to me.

Anonymous said...

Hershel. ----------------------- (deleted) Snap out of your Misery. You Lubavitchers do not believe in this. Your shita is nem gelt fin vee slotzach.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous

We don't hold of it, but since it happened in the Chatzar HaKodesh Spinka then maybe it did happen?

I am who you think I am, if you wanna say hello send me a direct e-mail.

Guravitzer said...

New post, from this week's Kfar Chabad: Chaim Grade, forgery and arrogant professors

U' N' said...

Guravitzer, your spam would be more appropriate near the post about the genizah forgery, as it's pitching endorsing of a definite forgery with implications while removing a questionable forgery without such implications.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Go back to DovBear where you can have your respect. Let plagiarism and maliciousness be munachim bemokom echod.

ROTFL. You must be a very casual reader of DovBear. Otherwise you'd know that I essentialy serve there as the community pinata. Here OTOH i get plenty of repect or, at least until your comment, civility.

BTW while I do apologize for that comment which was both over the top and basically just regurgitating b'rabim the taynis of one disgrunteled employee, in general I notice no absence of malice here.

Anonymous said...

לא תגנוב WAS ERASED BY MANY. WITH THE EXUSE THAT THEY DO A FAVOR TO G-D WITH THERE LEARNING TRUE גנבה
FROM THE GOVERMENT....

FOR EXMPLE SPINKA HAS A KOLEL OF 200 YINGELEIT ......

HOWEVER THESE YINGELEIT SHALL KNOW BETTER THAT AFTER ALL PIPULIM IN THE RAMBAM IS COMPLETED , THE BOTTUM LINE IS לא תגנוב IS AN איסור דאוריתא!!!!


AND IF YOU CAN NON LEARN ALL DAY 'WITH KOSHER MONEY THEN THE TORHA FORBIDS YOU TO STEEL AND YOU MUST GO WORK

DONT DO FAVORS FOR GOD

HE GAVE THE TORHE WITH THESE CONDITIONS

AND IT'S A SHAME ON ALL OF YOU WHO SUPPORT THERE LEARNING IN KOLEL TREU גנבה וגזלה!!!!!!

IT IS MAMHES AN EPEDEMIC R"L

1 SKVERRER HAD A BUNCH OF YIDDEN
LOCKED UP FOR FRAUD

2 ABRAMOV FFROM LEBOVITHCH IN ISREAL IS LOCKED UP FOR FRAUD

3 THE JAKOBOVITZ FROM SATMAR ARE LOCKED FOR FRAUD AND THE WHOLE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF SATMAR RESINGED BCS THE ARE AFRAID THEY WILL BE LOCKED UP FOR THE SAME FRAUD , PEARLSTEIN,MOSHE GABAI,JENO KAHAN,ASHER MEISELS AND MORE

I AM ASKING WHAT ID GOING ON ?

IS THE עשרת הדברות NOT AS IMPORTANT AS A פילפול אין רמבם?

U' N' said...

The only "Lo Signov" here was perpetrated by Robert Kassirer the informer, who bilked people and organizations out of hundreds of millions of dollars and then cut a deal with the SEC to disgorge just some of his ill-gotten gains and to feed them the whole Spinke mosdos, Rebbe and all. So much for your BS and trust in the government, Tzig.

Hirshel Tzig said...

What Tzig, U N?

are you accusing me of writing the previous comment?

Please. Speak to the guy that wrote it.

I'm still not sure why you defend the actions though.

Guravitzer said...

CAPS LOCK is back!

The precise reason I wrote about the forgery was to distinguish between a true case of forgery and a case of a copy made with errors. The second occured over and over again, in fact in almost every published edition of anything and in any selection of manuscripts there are variation due to the bochur der zetzer or der shreiber. The first was perpetrated by our friends the Misnagdim.

U' N' said...

I should've made a "psik". You have ridiculed the notion that the Feds may have pursued this case on extra gears and with higher profile because frum jews of high stature are involved. Well, now the facts are indicating same.

The previous comment speaks for itself; I don't think that even baalei genizah would be able to write in such a manner.

U' N' said...

Guravitzer,

How about delving a bit into details on this misnagdishe terrible forgery (that consisted pretty much solely of saying that words of Gr"a were holy) ?