Thursday, December 27, 2007

Cautious Excitement



Shturem: Aguch & Merkos win case against CLI

I usually refrain from mentioning internal Lubavitch politics, simply because I'm a partisan hack, but I believe this needs to be put out there. I hope and pray that the leadership of the two Organizations, Agudas Chabad and Merkos L'Inyonei Chinuch, doesn't blow this great opportunity to bring a semblance of sanity to the Rebbe's shul, and to make 770 Eastern Parkway a place for all Jews, not just a few of them from Safed.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

Nothing is going to change quickly. CLI could put up $500,000 dureing the appeal and remain in the premises.

berl, crown heights said...

Can someone with legal knowledge explain what this all really means? I am afraid the gabboim will find someone to put up the $$$ for the appeal, unfortunately. In this light, I do not understand Krinsky's pronouncements regarding the 'seder' they will now make in 770.

berl, crown heights said...

P.S. OK, I read the whole judgement which is written in very plain English. Best I can tell, this is a complete victory, including the right to evict individuals, not just CLI (an abstract entity). I can't believe that an appellate court judge would buy the very disingenuous arguments the gabboim presented in this case ("we are only a management corp, not the congregation" - right!) for which they received a very stern dressing down from Judge Harkavy. Any lawyers in the house?

Friendly anonymous said...

Agudas Chabad and Merkos L'Inyonei Chinuch don't have the foot soldiers to enforce any court decree. The shluchim are only in 770 in numbers during the Kinnus. At other times, the mispallelim are not an aguch crowd.

Elye said...

Regardless of what side of the fence you're on, the war cries of "victory!" "didan natzach" (a la COL, Shturem) ought to make you sick.

SatmatTC said...

100% they r going to come with the 500k, they 60 days to appeal, and then,maybe 1 more year to see what happens

Milhouse said...

Don't get so excited. Of course they will appeal, and that will take at least a year, and in the meantime nothing changes. And let's not be too confident that they'll lose the appeal; I don't think they have a valid case, but who knows?

Berl, what this means is that for now, on paper, Aguch and Merkos won, they own the building and have the right to control it completely, and nobody has the right to run things there without their permission. So the gaboyim are ois gaboyim. But execution is stayed for 60 days to give them time to appeal, and I have no doubt that they will appeal. To do so they have to put up a half-million dollar deposit, in case they damage the building while they're appealing. But at the end of the appeal, win or lose, they get the deposit back with interest. It's just like the security deposit one puts down on an apartment.

Mottel said...

I don't think it will help.
In theory stopping the flag waving is a great thing . . . But how will they really stop this all? The violence 'meila -but to take down signs, stop the singing, keep those guys out? I don't see it happening.
L'gufo shel inyan -the money spent on the case would have meant much more to Lubavitch had it been sent to shluchim who desperately need it.

Guravitzer said...

When I see evictions and action I will celebrate. When I see that they are permanent.

Anonymous said...

the whole parsha is a charpeh and busha and a huge chilul Lubavitch even amongst our own children.

Krinsky doesn't talk to shemtov, kotlarsky has his fights with shemtov and the shluchim office they themselves are the worst example of getting things together.

this was purely an ego and power trip because lepoyel they must be dreaming to think they will be able to change anything at all. and if they plan to employ bouncers like they have done in the past to kick people out the demoralization of the kids is not worth the whole thing.

they should have and should right now try to work it out like chassdim ought to work out differences but that will not happen because there is too much ego and yeshes involved

berl, crown heights said...

well, there is no guarantee that the appellate court will hear the case, is there? also, I do not know about the signs, but they would have wide support if they were to remove the tzfatim and anyone who raises their hand (no foot soldiers needed - they can use private security services).

I, however, would do something entirely different in their place. I would give out an official press release that sates something along these lines:
"AGU"CH is in no way opposed to chasidim expressing their belief that the Rebbe will take us out of golus - we share this believe! That being said, the Rebbe's shul will in every respect be run the way it was run when the Rebbe was coming downstairs to 770 begolui and expressing his opinions on all matters bedibbur. That means: no additions of any kind to actual nusach hatefiloh will be tolerated (even if it is something that may be perfectly legitimately expressed in other venues), no signs of any kind on the walls of 770 will be allowed, no flag-waving will be permitted, no music playing during times of prayer and learning will be sanctioned! The decorum of the holy beis rabeinu shebevovel will be strictly enforced! Me'zol gedenken vu me'shteit un far vemen me'shteint!"

And then I would enforce all of the above.
Nice dream...

An Ailmesher said...

To someone not up to date with the Lubab politics, what does this all mean? Are CLI, and Blosofsky, moshiachist nuts? Are Merkoz et al going to stop the nonsense that goes on downstairs?

By the way, when was the last time Lubavitchers went to a din torah instead of the courts? Obviously they can't because a lubab beis din has negius to one side and they won't let a snag or a pailesher beis din tell them how to run Lubavitch, so they go to goyim. What a krume velt.

berl, crown heights said...

havhoroh: re "yechi" during davenen, I went too far – no one should worry about policing every small private minyan in 770 - that is not doable. But the chazan in the main minyan should not be allowed to be meshane dem nusach and anyone disrupting the chazzan should be removed from shul by a security guard.

An Ailemesher said...

You should know that I have a respect for Chabad chassidus and Lubavitch as it once was. But while checking up on the court case I came across this http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=9781 and read the posts. It was really impressed upon me that Lubavitch today is full of apikorsus or at a minimum of דעות כוזבות as we Hungarians say. Here are some goodies:

"mazal tov!!!! zol zein a` peulo nimsheches! der Rebbe firt.."

"chillul lubavitch"

Where is G-d? The Rebbe firt? Outside of Lubavitch, I've only heard the term "Chilul Hashem". In Lubavitch it's "Chillul Lubavitch".

That in my humble opinion is the churban of the Dor Hashvie'e. I don't know if it was earlier but R. Aharon Kotler believed that Lubavitch was avodah zara, so it may have been there before also.

Mottel said...

I chilul Lubavitch because people look poorly on Lubavitch . . . Not such a biggie Ailemesher.

Ma'aravah said...

I am a lawyer. But I don't understand the two sides here. Harkavy says CLI was ousting Merkos, and CLI says no we are just a shell corp, and we can't be ejected b/c we are not in possession. So even if CLI were to appeal this and win, they will simply establish that they have not been in possession all this time and there is no right to ejectment. But either way, Aguch owns the shul and can do what they want. No?

Guravitzer said...

No. From what I have followed (tell me as a lawyer if it makes sense): First trial was to establish ownership of premises. Aguch and Merkos won that. Second trial, this one, was an eviction process. Their "defense" during this eviction process was: That they do not occupy the premises, and therefore there is no one to evict! It drove the judge crazy, which is why he posted the 500k appeal fine so that it will be difficult for them to drive yet another judge crazy.

To anonymous of cherpa and busha: They are human, and their issues were temporary. Yudel and Avremel have been talking again for a year or two, kotlarsky and the shluchim office had a financial dispute which they decided to ignore, shalom al yisroel.

The real cherpa and busha was that they, designated by the Rebbe to decide and enforce physical (merkos) and spiritual (aguch) decisions and leadership for Lubavitch, had been derelict for 15 years. That they finally took up the responsibility given to them is a good thing.

Ma'aravah said...

Guravitzer- That's what I said. But what is the practical difference? If there was noone to evict, Aguch can walk in and take over. If there is someone to evict, Aguch can evict them and take over. No?

berl, crown heights said...

ma'aravah,
I think that the practical difference is that the gabboim tried to, in effect, make their previous loss irrelevant by claiming that the original Congregation Lubavitch is as it was and that the corporation Congregation Lubavitch, Inc (CLI) they represented was merely a governing body that was not located on the premises. So, in affect, had the judge bought into this crap, he would have to rule that, while the premises clearly belong to Merkos, Merkos has no power to evict someone who is not on the premises (CLI) and thus can't mess with an old shul (CL) either (at least not without going through courts on that as a separate matter). The judge ruled that this was a lie and that CLI is, in fact, on the premises.

Guravitzer said...

maaravah, effectively, they claimed they owned and occupied 770 until the first trial was over, then switched claims to state that they did not occupy it in the second. Yes it makes no sense. That is what frustrated the judge.

StamarTC said...

Guravitzer

I never heard about the Rebbe giving to someone to decide and inforce spiritual decisions in LUB

And regarding the Institutions, I heard that there are 2 wills, etc, everything is very confusing

ANd on the top of the crazy Moshichistm you have the fights inside Aguch and Merkos and Kehot.
How could ppl expect somne respect about desicions and the institutions of Lub, with these ppl in charge?

True Blue said...

1-Yudel can still be counted on, through timidity and stupidity, to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

2- As long as pompous swine like Drizin have disposable cash, this can go on a long time.

3- As has been proven quite definitively, the only way to secure a disputed premises is with big bats carried by big (black) guys. Civil wars are only ended after a lot of blood is spilled. Lincoln was a hero in the North, but a war criminal and mass murderer in the South. History is written by the victors, so lets get on with it.

There are, afetr all, some things that Satmer got right!

Guravitzer said...

The wills issue has been settled for all practical purposes long ago. The mandate over spiritual hadracha is given to Aguch in typewritten minutes of a yechidus with Aguch with handwritten edits of the Rebbe.

True Blue said...

After I wrote my post last night and went to sleep, I had some regrets....maybe I was a bit over the top.

Well, I wake up this morning and I'm feeling maybe.....Behold, what Drizin and Co. have wrought:

http://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?artID=34929

Can sombody get me 152 Rodney Street on the line, please?

Jeremy said...

I honestly don't see the big difference between Berl,Crown Heights version and the current Shul administration.Berl, basically agrees that the Rebbe will come back as moshiach etc but disagrees with the vocal, yellow flag waving tactics.

So was it worth millions of $ just to eliminate some yellow flags and posters?
Meanwhile they haven't even cleared them out, if they ever will.
Frankly, I felt much more comfortable believing that the crazies running 770 were a fringe group in their beliefs and Lubavitch itself after initial setbacks dealing with the Rebbes passing had gotten its act and belief in synch.
If Berls views are mainstream I 'm wrong

berl, crown heights said...

"Berl, basically agrees that the Rebbe will come back as moshiach"

Is that what I said?
1. I said AGU"CH should say...
2. I said "the Rebbe will take us out of golus" which is quite open to interpretation and is an exact quote from Rebbe regarding the passing of the Previous Rebbe... (even people who openly say that the Rebbe can't be Moshiach have a reading for this statement; see R. Berel Levine's writings)
3. I said "chasidim expressing their belief". There is a very important distinction to be made between a personal feeling and hope and a mandatory belief. That former is fine, the latter is baseless, imho. "Some signs and flags" are not only aesthetically offensive and crazy (and that they are), they also represent the latter, unacceptable approach.
4. Most importantly, there is a false notion spreading out there that the so-called anti-meshichist Lubavitchers are really closet meshichists. THIS IS FALSE! Perhaps one of the worst sins committed by the meshichists is that other Lubavitchers feel compelled to hush dow the entire conversation about the Rebbe as Moshiach. I say with great pride that "Moshe emes veseirosei emes" - I do not know how some of the things the Rebbe talked about shall come to pass. I do not know what color Moshiach's eyes will be. But I am sure that when he comes, we will see in him all those who where called Moshicah by the chazal and by the tzaddikim of the previous generations (Moshe, Dovid... and the Rebbe). Do I hope that it will actually be the Rebbe in the most simple meaning of this idea? Sure. Do I know that this is how things will be? Surely not.

Gavriel said...

True Blue!
The story on COL is scary!
I passed 749 last night and saw a commotion with cops etc (and the new sickening posters in English 'The Messiah is here")but only now I know what it's about.Naively I thought it was about 'shechoirim' who mugged a yid, but had no time to stop and find out.

Tzig:I'll tell you the truth.For you to write and criticize other groups (Ch.Berlin,spinker Rebbe Agudah. others)While what we are going thru with our nuts is disingenuous.I personally will be moving out of Crown Heights unless 770 is reclaimed 'bepoel'.I don't step in there anymore but still am affected by the unrestrained Talibs running amock in the shechuna

Hirshel Tzig said...

Gavriel

there are other blogs for bashing Lubavitch. I don't do that here.

bpunbound said...

"and the new sickening posters in English 'The Messiah is here")"

Actually, in a crazy sort of way, I am somewhat encouraged by that sort of thing. It smacks of desperation, and usually when people get desperate, the full depth of their sickness comes to the surface.

When the average Joe sees how deep this rot goes, he won't be as squemish when those that have the power will finally find the Beitzim to LANCE THIS BOIL!

berl, crown heights said...

bpunbound,
You are on to something here. The ever spreading snag propaganda that "all Lubavitchers are closet meshichists" is a sure sign that "yellow fever" is cooling down. The sonim are afraid they are putting to much money on the "meshichist" stock and are trying to diversify their portfolio of hate.

source-seeking jew said...

i am readin all this and am somewhat perplexed. there is a major difference between not responding to a hazmono of R Moshe or using violence and saying the Lub rebbeis moshiach. the former are 100% against shulchan oruch and the latter was never explained to be wrong in any torahdike way ( with an exception of some hystrical individuals like david berger and his likes who have no connection to torah or halacha . if you want to condemn some tzfatim for their violence i am with you - everybody agrees that they dont follow shulchan oruch the same way as pple who dont respond to hazmona. but if you knock pple who believe the LR is moshiach try a bit harder not to make yourself sound like an average reform jew who criticizes just because it doesnt sit well with him

Anonymous said...

berl - what does the word meshichist mean? is it believing that LR is moshiach or waving the flag?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Got to tell you, that I was suprised by the reaction on this and other blogs. I always had the impression that the Tzfatim were a bigger poportion of Chabad than they seem to be on the internet.

DD said...

Berel

Don’t blame it on snag propaganda. Until recently, besides a few pilpulim and a letter from Rabbi Heller, very few people actually admitted in public that they don’t believe the Rebbe is moshiach.

perplexed in B.P. said...

Berl
How do you define a 'closet meshichist'?
You yourself say that that you are sure that the Rebbe is Moshiach.What exactly is the snag propoganda then? I understood that that exactly was their point, i.e even people like yourself who have called the Meshichists 'yellow fever' and other names, still agree that the Rebbe will be revealed as Moshiach.

Anonymous said...

dd
because most of lubavitchers do believe that - and thats fine as long as they dont force others to believe. zionism was denounced by many gedolim as a tryfe hashkofo. this belief wasnt.

DD said...

I disagree. Most learned lubavitchers don’t believe.

berl, crown heights said...

perplexed in b.p.,
"even people like yourself... still agree that the Rebbe will be revealed as Moshiach".
I said no such thing. I said clearly that in the most simple of terms I DO NOT KNOW who WILL BE actually revealed as Moshiach. I further said that when Moshiach comes, whoever he might me, we will see in him all the people that were thusly called by the chazal and by the tzaddikim. That means that whoever he might be, we will see in him Moshe rabeinu, Dovid hamelech, Hizkiah hamelech, etc, etc, etc... including the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I further said that I HOPE that the Rebbe would be the Moshiach bepashtus - in the most simple meaning of the word. HOPE, not KNOW, not sure, not predicting. HOPE. Got any theological problem with that? If yes, what? Moreover, how can this be called "closet meshichism" if I say it openly?

Rebbetzin said...

Back to the original topic of this post:
It is not all the Gabboim that are involved. It's only one (and perhaps a second is involved). the others do not support their case at all.

No need to ridicule more people than necessary.

True Blue said...

Vider, with the obfuscation.


This issue has nothing, nothing NOTHING to do with the Rebbe being or not being Moshiach.

It has to do with a bunch of retarded neanderthals, aided and abeted by two-bit mafiosas that manipulate them for their own agenda, turning the Beis Ha'Kneses of the Rebbe into a toilet.

Period.

And the question is if responsible parties will wake up and take a stand.

Now, if you wish that this process of Ti'Haru Es Mikdashecha (if it occurs) be extended to Chabad institutions at large, that is another topic. But lets accomplish, at least, the barest of minimums.

berl, crown heights said...

obfuscation? this does it - true blue, you are a complete moron! no one said the issue was moshiach. the topic of moshiach was a parenthetical discussion (ever heard of the concept?) that became the main thrust of the conversation. can you comprehend this?

True Blue said...

Hey Berl, whattaya biting my head off for?

That change in direction IS exactly what bothers me.

Everytime there is an attempt to fix things, we go back to playing the same old tired tune. Doesn't this band play anything else beside Racheim.

Hirshel's post was about the court case and its ramifications. The responses addressed if something Be'Poil would change.. why the need to shift focus AGAIN. Let's get on with it already.

source seeking jew said...

dd- so far there wasnt one source sited neagting belief that the LB could be moshiach - only what sits comfortably with people. this is not yidishkeit

DD said...

source seeking jew:
I never said the Rebbe couldn't be moshach. Although, I doubt he will be and definitely isn't yet

perplexed in b.p.,
To me, Berel sounds more like a recovering Meshichist then a closet one.

U' N' said...

Berele, you're not going out. Here you will rot, cooking in your bile. People like you, mouthpieces of erev rav, aren't getting out, they are happy right here right now and they've fought geulah in any shape or fashion. Every time you open your mouth you're mechalel Sh'Sh. You think it's betzin'a, but you'll pay up beferhesya. It has nothing to do with Chabad, worms like you crawl in every hole.

berl, crown heights said...

"mouthpieces of erev rav"
I do not recall ever being hired by you :)

source seeking jew said...

dd- i agree with you that most Lub's dont believe that he is moshiach vadai already because al pi din moshiach gains the staus of vadi only after binian habys and kibuts golies but to believe that he will eventually be - most do believe that and i couldnt find any source to declare this belief kfira. btw - a member of the bes din hagodol - horav avrohom sherman is a talmid muvhak of horav eliyashiv shlit"a. he told me that rav eliyashiv told him about 6 years ago that one cannot disqualify a potential ger who believes that LR is moshiach from being nisgayer because as much as RE didnt share his beliefs he didn't consider it kfira

Guravitzer said...

berl, crown heights said...
"are trying to diversify their portfolio of hate."

Vintage berl. You must have been sitting in on the snag board meeting.

DD said...

source seeking jew:

How about if the ger eats on fast days and doesn't say Tachnun because moshiach is already here.

source seeking jew said...

dd- it would be very misguided. they totally misundertsand the rebbes comments in a sicha about 17 betamuz. the rebbe's comments on the status of small fasts when there is no shibud golios is straight from shulchan oruch and in no way suggests one shouldnt fast - its just the fast has a different geder. we have to speak to the mashpiim of these people and show them that its total misunderstanding. i am not sure that the ger would be a posul ger any more than a na nach nachman would not be posul. but i agree there has to be education.
believeing someone is moshiach by itself is a very normal thing in our tradition.
kol tuv

Anonymous said...

As Afghanistan, 770 is easy to invade, hard to conquer

Anonymous said...

so Shmuell Buttman is ois koplich macher?