Tuesday, December 11, 2007

Torah Never Forgets


NYS Senator Carl Kruger visits Mesivta Veretsky


You might say that the previous post was placed there as a buffer for the criticism I'm about to receive......

Yeshiva Or Shraga Veretsky was once described to me by a parent of a Talmid there as "Chassidish Light." This Yid Shtams from Chassidim of the Lubliner (Eiger) Cheder, and is very proud of the fact. You might say Lublin in his blood, and he supports it wherever he can, be it by publishing Seforim or by Minhogim etc. However, he does live in Flatbush and his wife has zero connection to Chassidus, so where's a guy like that gonna send his young son? to Veretsky. This school has Chassidishe Melamdim, and maybe some of the teaching is done in Yiddish, but the kids are probably not told what to wear and where to vacation, if you get my drift. Hence the term "Chassidish Lite." That's not to c"v say that it's not a great school, I was just discussing the Chassidish part of it. The Cheder has seen tremendous growth over the last decade - I guess the above-mentioned Yid is not the only one - and there came a time in 1998 when they needed a new building to house all those students. Mesivta. Now on Coney Island Avenue in Midwood there was a tire place called Adelman's tire. The Mesivta of YRCB had its eye on this building for the longest time, but was waiting for the right time. After all, the large campus is just up the block, and it would be only natural for them to swallow up that little building and add it to its portfolio of holdings in Brooklyn. In Boro Park terms that would be like the little Mirrer Minyan building next to the very large Gerrer Mesivta building, there too Ger would've very much have liked to get their hands on it, but the Alte Mirrer there would have none of that.


(Page 1)

The good people at YRCB knew that Veretsky would also like that lucrative piece of property, but they weren't worried, after all who would dare defy the monster? They also figured that Adelman would have to sell it at their price, well below market. That was not meant to be. Veretsky went and dealt with Adelman vi a mentsh and closed the deal. The reaction from YRCB was swift. They called the Veretskiers to Din Torah, citing the Din of Bar Metzroh, and that they had first right to buy. Not to be outdone Veretsky said "I'll see you in (Rabbinical) Court.". Well, it seems like somebody at YRCB didn't do their homework, and they thought that this would result in a TKO for them, with the insignificant Chassidim going down like a house of cards. Well, my friends, I hope you didn't bet on the favorite here, although nobody could've expected this outcome. Veretzky was ready and waiting, and retaliated with the following letter addressed to the BD of Machon LeHoro'oh that had called them to Din Torah. They pulled no punches in the letter written by their Toyen, letting them know exactly what they thought of the leadership there, and why they don't need to show. "They're Mesarvim Laamod LeDin for 17 years and have defied the Godol HaDor (Rav Moshe Feinstein) by refusing to come to Din Torah. (He's referring to the D"T they were called to by Rav Shlomo Carlebach.) They're people who use violence to get their way, and are only going to Beis Din now since an issue of Halochoh and no court would disallow the sale of the building because of Bar Metzroh.


(Page 2)

Having said that Rabbi Fried answers his question of "Does my Client need to show up in B"D at the behest of these people" by launching into an attack of how people who are Lo Tzayseh LeDinah one need not respond to their calls to a D"T, especially since they haven't done Tshuvah, and still claim that they never needed to respond to Carlebach's Hazmonos. Not only did they defy Reb Moshe Feinstein, but other Litvishe Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivah, including Reb Yaakov Kamenecki, Rav Ruderman, and Rav Mordche Schwab z"l tried to get them to answer the Hazmonos to B"D but they would have none of that. In addition according to the Ikkul issued by RMF the office of YRCB must continue to pay Reb Shlomo a salary, and according to that order they now owe him 17 years of back pay, as well as severance for his years of service, all of which total Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars!, and none of which was ever forgiven by Rabbi Carlebach. "They think they're "higher" than Torah and only use Botei Din where they think it'll be to their benefit." The good Rabbi was nice enough to provide the Machon LeHoro'oh B"D with copies of the FOUR Hazmonos sent by the B"D of the Agudas HaRabbonim to the Hanholoh of YRCB, as well as the letter sent by RSC to Chaim D Zwiebel, Esq. upon the occasion of the installation of Reb Aron Shechter as member of the MGT of the AI of America, where he condemns the appointment.


(Page 3)

So you see my friends, Torah is Nitzchis, even after so many years....

49 comments:

baalbatish said...

TKO by the Tzig. Great post.
As a ungarisher, do some research into Veretzky. When did the Alter Veretzkyer become Rebbe? What was he in the heim? What's his yichus? IIRC, Tha alter's son married into the Boston dynasty and somehow connected to Skvere Boro Park.

Samson said...

Tzig Great post! Let's stand by and watch the predictable snags turn this into another Lubavitch bashing comedy show.

ahron schlechter said...

chabad bullshit you fabricated the whole thing.
i want to see hazmonos

Shpekulant said...

Sounds like you have a bee up your backside regarding Yeshiva Chaim Berlin.
Predictable for a talmid of 'Der Shtudent' fin Berlin.
Continue your one sided version of events.
We are coming up to the great 'yom tov of 'didon notzach vegam rotzach' of Der Shtudent over the Previous's Rebbes aynikel in a goyishe court!
And you preydik about din tayreh?
Ma bein talmidov shel Avrohom ve talmidei Bilo'om?By the talmidim you see the difference, since both Avrohom and Bilo'om are wearing a zeydeneh zupitseh.You are a good 'talmid' Hershel!

Hirshel Tzig said...

"Der Shtudent" bistu

If you'd like you can give me "your side" of these events.

The rest of your comment is utter nonsense and irrelevance.

Hirshel Tzig said...

shlechter

and if I show you hazmonos what then?

ahron schlechter said...

if u show me hazmonos then i'll claim they are fakes

Hirshel Tzig said...

It must be blissful in your world, just claim everything is a fake.

Anonymous said...

HT, I think Schlechter is just yanking your leash, albeit intemperately.

baalbatish said...

Tzig,
Schlechter is acting as Ahron Schechter. He's trying to make a point that Schechter would deny the hazmonos are real.
Lighten up.

Hirshel Tzig said...

bAALbATISH

I realize that, but can't I play along?

ahron schlechter said...

why bother calling 'em fakes when you won't even post them?you lubob fraud.

Anonymous said...

hershel I love it and keep it up, but I believe there is some mule working for you

Hirshel Tzig said...

Mule? as in "?פרד"

Anonymous said...

please dont post the comments that include curse-words, we come hear to enjoy interesting (and sometimes silly, fun) dialoge and coversations, but please try to keep it clean and enjoyable. BTW, this aron shlechter guy is just waggin your tail and its time to shoo him away. Bheskum, I love your blog, and keep it up.

Anonymous said...

slang : a person who smuggles or delivers illicit substances (as drugs)

baalbatish said...

Sorry,
Maybe I should lighten up.

Hirshel Tzig said...

oh, I get it now.

Well, we have our own little mules, don't we? At least those of us in the "media" for lack of a better term.

Anonymous said...

Do yourself and your readership a favor and change your layout. White text on blue background is difficult on the eyes.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ok, which layout would you suggest?

go to blogger.com and choose one for me, maybe I'll change it. I for one liked the way pictures, especially b&w, looked on this background.

baalbatish said...

I vote for no change.

Enquiring Jew said...

I just happened upon this blog and was really stunned about this stuff with chaim berlin. I mean we all heard about this but to see this stuff in black and white is an eye opener to say the least.

I'm at a complete loss to understand how AS could be respected as a gadol and member of the moetzes if he is indeed in defiance of a psak of the Rosh Moetzes gedolei Hatorah, R Moshe Feisnstein z'l.

And what about Fruchthandler how come he gets all this respect isn't he in the same boat.

What about Gedalya weinberger isn't he some kind of talmid of Rabbi Carlebach. I understand he recently took over the agudah. How can he make nice to these people with this kind of garbage going on. It's mind boggling. What about the Novominsker isn't he a CB talmid.

Why do we give these organizations our time and money when apparently all they are busy doing is covering up for wrong doers. It seems like the yeshiva world/agudah has lots of these dirty secrets that they "sweep under the carpet" to protect their money and image. Its sickening.

Whats interesting is that after all these years this stuff doesn't go away. Theres no statute of limitation on justice especially divine justice. Just look at YTT's Margolis. He'd been hiding this child molester Kolko in plain sight all these years just to protect his image, and now he's going down in flames in an avlanche of negative publicity and litigation.

Ditto Mondrowitz (I'm sure were still going to find out which institutions were protecting him).

So CB thought all this stuff was history when it all came to the light of day -- by their own hand; wow.

By the way Bar Metzra is based on the posuk of Viuseesa Hayoshor Vihatov (do what is just and good), which connotes acting decently towards you neighbor even beyond the letter of the law. Its certainly ironic that CB was trying to compel others to comply with that while they openly defy basic halacha for all these years.

We'll see where this goes. Its interesting because all these people complain about the internet and bloggers for being disrespectful to Gedolim etc. They miss the point. The bloggers are just taking out the trash because it stinks so badly. If you cleaned your own houses we wouldn't need bloggers to do it for you.

It seems like the Agudah is sitting on another time bomb waiting to explode with this CB garbage.

Great work tzig.

Anonymous said...

Any chance of getting your hands on R. Shlomo Carlbach's letter to the Agudah?

SatmatTc said...

wow! This post is great
How is possible that just Gelt can mebatel their Yddishkait and bring this Chillul H

Hirshel Tzig said...

Enquiring

Hu Asher Diber Fried in his letter to them, that they can't expect that others do Yoshor & Tov if they have this outstanding debt to Beis Din and wouldn't do Yoshor & Tov to Rabbi Carlebach. It seems like it worked!

snag 22 said...

I would like to following ask in all seriousness.

WHAT the hell was Rav Aaron Schecter thinking?

How can a person simply IGNORE a Hazmanah from the undisputed Gadol Hador (yes even biger than the great one, long live he, king messiah forever)??

Can anyone give me a normal answer?

Anonymous said...

Tzig, like I told you on Gmail Chat:

Hutners nisht gut, un Shechters nisht Hutner!

(You can add in also that Der Rebbe is nist kein Hutner un Nisht kein Schecter...er is nur a chaver fun Hutner fun College)

Hirshel Tzig said...

and Tzig is nisht Shechter and Shechter is nisht Freifeld and Freifeld is nisht David and David is nisht Stolper. So what?

The Bray of Fundie said...

So CB thought all this stuff was history when it all came to the light of day -- by their own hand; wow.

How is this by there own hand?

reader said...

"Yeshiva Or Shraga Veretsky was once described to me by a parent of a Talmid there as "Chassidish Light." ...... This school has Chassidishe Melamdim, and maybe some of the teaching is done in Yiddish, but the kids are probably not told what to wear and where to vacation, if you get my drift. Hence the term "Chassidish Lite."

"As a ungarisher, do some research into Veretzky. When did the Alter Veretzkyer become Rebbe? What was he in the heim? What's his yichus? IIRC, Tha alter's son married into the Boston dynasty and somehow connected to Skvere Boro Park."

My assumption is that Veretsky was not much in the past, but ambitiously saw an opportunity in the new developing Midwood community. They dubbed themseleves 'hisachdis yireim' as if they were some type of uniting of Hassidim/Haredim/Yireim (and the others around there that don't belong to them are not 'Yireim'?).

In a shrewd move, they fashioned themselves into a minyan factory, along the lines of Shomrei Shabbos of BP, something that was lacking in that area, making themselves a hub and center of sorts for the neighborhood. After their fire and worshipping for a while around a tree, they put up on a nice new building. Now they have Friday night lectures too.

Anyway, they have built up a clientele from people seeking a minyan at odd hours, people of Chassidic background, who would not be comfortable with something more overtly Chassidic and people who weren't comfortable in too Litvish an atmosphere. Now with their Yeshiva, they are well-along the way to being a new quasi-Chassidus, like Boston.

reader said...

By the way, what was Sen. Kruger doing at Veretsky in front of the aron kaydesh ? Giving a dvar Tayreh to the bochurim ? I don't even know that he is mizera Yisroel.

They didn't have some other chol room where he could speak ?

Enquiring Jew said...

Bray:

It was by their own hand because they called Veretzky to BD thinking they were going to knock them out only to get punched in the nose on the Carlebach issue which nobody mentioned for a while and which I'm sure they would rather have kept buried.

By the way I saw your comments on Dov Bear. It sounds like your a CB apologist. I'm sure you'll all be coming out of the woodwork real soon.

Since when is publicizing a Mesarev ledin loshon horo. I thought it was a mitzvah. Doesn't the jewish press run a column every week on mesarvim ledin. Doesn't Rabbi Carlebach deserve some justice after all these years.

Does Sholom mean that you bury all the problems out there to preserve a veneer of peace while volcanoes churn beneat the surface. I don't think so. That approach is misguided and dangerous. We need to get this stuff out in the open so we torah jews can have some real integrity rather than just be a bunch of kool-aid drinking phonies.

The Bray of Fundie said...

I'm just saying that there's more than one side to the story. Everyone is excoriating RAS and AF yet no one finds anything odd about RSC having been pretty much adopted by RYH post-war turning on his friends and Rebbe after so many years of association.

If appealing for calm and even-handedness. If that makes me an apologist so be it.

Let's not conflate this with the Torah Temimah Scandal. We don't have a molester preying on small children here. We have a sikhsukh between Rebbeim, Talmidim and Khaverim. Sure it was ugly. As Shakspeare said (and RYH paraphrases him in a ma'amar) "Hell hath no fury like love to hatred turned". But it was more than just furious. It was complicated as well with lot's of grey areas. I suspect that, as in the case with most bitter divorces, there was plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved.

Enquiring..If I were convinced that all the commenters here were sincere crusaders for justice I'd hold my peace . Forgive my skepticism but IMO the point is not "We need to get this stuff out in the open so we torah jews can have some real integrity" but yet another attack on the power structure and a further eroding of emunas khakhomim and kovod HaTorah. Why? becuase the zeitgeist today is that we are mevatel ourselves to no one. (Why do you think hefkerdik, psik reyshe v'lo yomus b'neekhusa BMG has 5000+ talmidim and counting while the Brooklyn Yeshivas, where there is actually a Mashgiakh and/or Rosahshiva to answer to, continue to hemorrhage talmdim? ) It is "fun" and oh-so American to crusade for the underdog.

I suspect that in an alternative history; had the hazmonos been answered the din torah been lost by the YRCB current hanhala and had RSC been running YRCB for the last 25+ years we'd be reading today about the horrible avla done to RAS and AF.

Tzig feel free to comment mine. I will repost on the current thread as well bl"n.

jewish press is a mess said...

Enquiring Jew
I had a blast when you brought a proof from the Jewish Press about publicizing mesarvim ledin!
So the Jewish Press, the dumbest most idiotic Jewish newspaper is your gold standard??
Get a life.
Btw The yeshiva got no 'seruv'.
The probably chose to go for a zabl'o.
On top of everything else in this hatchet job, there is no din of bar metsra by hekdesh, so Chaim Berlin would not have used it as a 'tayneh'.
The bottom line is that The Tzig is using this story to deflect from Lubavitchs many problems since the Rebbes passing, chief amongst them is the Lubabs inability to accept that the Rebbe is dead.

Enquiring Jew said...

Bray:

To respond to your arguments lets take them one by one:


"no one finds anything odd about RSC having been pretty much adopted by RYH post-war turning on his friends and Rebbe after so many years of association."
-------------
Who knows maybe they turned on him? And does that give CB the right to defy the Godol Hador


"Hell hath no fury like love to hatred turned". But it was more than just furious. It was complicated as well with lot's of grey areas. I suspect that, as in the case with most bitter divorces, there was plenty of blame to go around for all parties involved."
----------------
Maybe and maybe not but CB's refusal to go a Din Torah would lead me to believe that the blame would probably have ended up in their lap. People usually run because their guilty. But even if your right, that's why people go to a din torah to sort these things out. And does that give CB the right to defy the Godol Hador.


"I suspect that in an alternative history; had the hazmonos been answered the din torah been lost by the YRCB current hanhala and had RSC been running YRCB for the last 25+ years we'd be reading today about the horrible avla done to RAS and AF."
-----------------------------
Maybe and maybe not. It's nice to speculate about alternative histories and fourth dimensional universes but in the real world we live in CB defied the Gadol Hador and continue to this very day to defy the Gadol Hador.


The simple fact, as evident from the Fried letter, is that CB never went to a din torah, they defied the Gadol Hador Rav Moshe Feinstein and continue to defy him to this very day.

All this other stuff is melodramatic nonesense designed to deflect from that simple fact. If you have a cogent response to that one issue; lets hear it. Save the rest.

We Torah jews must observe halacha. If we don't we are phonies plain and simple. If Agudah can put up AS and AF as role models while they are in defiance of a psak hlacha of the Gadol Hador, they have made a travesty of Orthodox Judiasm.

It is incumbent upon us Torah jews to let agudah know that through our mouths and pocketbooks. It really doen't matter whether they are covering up for a child molester or a mesarev ledin. Either way they are contravening their mission as the spokesmen of Orthodox Jewry and we have to let them know that we won't abide by that.

An Ailmesher said...

Tzigelle,

Great piece of shmutz! Keep it up. Those guys deserve to be shamed for the way they treated R. S. Carelebach.

I just don't understand the part about asking CB to sign that they would agree to listen to future din torahs. What was the purpose of that and why would CB refuse?

The Bray of Fundie said...

Forget the Agudah. Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Reuven Feinstein get along fine with RAS and AF. Do they believe the Hanhala of YRCB to "still" be in defiance of their father's z"l hazmana?

The Bray of Fundie said...

Who knows maybe they turned on him?

Maybe or maybe not. Tzig's presentation however is totally one-sided.

And does that give CB the right to defy the Godol Hador

THE Godol Hador??? With the Hey Hayediah I think that both HT and Ponovezher talmidim might take issue with that. Perhaps the issue here is that RSC was in defiance of one of the Gedolei HaDor and his Rebbi Muvhak to boot.

Would you be as quick to ridicule if a parent refused a hazmona to appear in Beis din if their adult child wwas the tovayah?

The Bray of Fundie said...

All this other stuff is melodramatic nonesense

I presume that you are referring to my riff on BMG vs. the Lakewood Yeshivas. I beg to differ. It is a fact of contemporary Jewish life. It is what drives most of the J-Blogosphere. It is IMO what is driving this series of posts.

Enquiring Jew said...

Bray:

"Forget the Agudah. Rav Dovid Feinstein and Rav Reuven Feinstein get along fine with RAS and AF. Do they believe the Hanhala of YRCB to "still" be in defiance of their "
------------------------
Absolutely. Just ask them. I understand that AF went with Landau to Reb Dovid to confirm that the R' Moshe's letter was a "ziyoof" (forgery). Apparently, this was the CB line over the years. Reb Dovid's response was not only wasn't it a ziyoof but R' Moshe was never so angry in his life at AS for iognoring his Hazmonoh. Basically R' Moshe said that nobody has ever ignored my hazmonos including Gedolei Hador such as R' Aaron Kotler. Who is AS to ignore my Hazmonoh.

As to why they are collegial with him, I suspect it has to do with their knowledge that they cannot accomplish anything with him and they are dealing with important Klal issues. I assure you they don't approve of his conduct.


THE Godol Hador??? With the Hey Hayediah I think that both HT and Ponovezher talmidim might take issue with that. Perhaps the issue here is that RSC was in defiance of one of the Gedolei HaDor and his Rebbi Muvhak to boot.
----------------------------------
Absolutely. With the Hey Hayidiah. Believe me Rav Shach would be the first one to confirm that. R' Moshe was the acknowledged Rashkebahag in all jewish circles. You would be hard pressed to find any dissent in litivish or chasiddish circles. He was certainly the Posek Hador and the undispued Gadol Hador of America. You are barking up the wrong tree with that one for sure.

R' Moshe was well aware of RSC's relationship with R' Hutner and issued his Hazmonos and Psak just the same. Doesn't that put to rest all of your issues. RSC was acting in accordance with the guidance and Psak of the Gadol Hador.

Where is the Yirah for a Talmid Chochom of Rav Moshe's stature. R' Akiva gave his famous dictum of Es hashem Elokecha Tirah Lirabos Talmeidai Chachemim. (Fearing a Torah Scholar is equivalent to fearing G-d). The failure of CB to respond to R' Moshe's Hazmanah, let alone to defy his Psak Halacha, simply unheard of in frum Torah circles, besides for everything else, bespeaks a fundamental lack of Yiras Shomayim.

I repeat, these simple fundamental issues really relegate all this other stuff to the realm of nonesense.

The Bray of Fundie said...

I understand that AF went with Landau to Reb Dovid to confirm that the R' Moshe's letter was a "ziyoof" (forgery). Apparently, this was the CB line over the years. Reb Dovid's response was not only wasn't it a ziyoof but R' Moshe was never so angry in his life at AS for iognoring his Hazmonoh. Basically R' Moshe said that nobody has ever ignored my hazmonos including Gedolei Hador such as R' Aaron Kotler. Who is AS to ignore my Hazmonoh.

אם קבלה היא נקבל
Just curious. where do you get all your insider info? Are you a mekurov of the Feinsteins, the Carlebachs or were you just a fly on the wall during this meaning?

Forgive my skepticism but how on earth do you know this and why on earth should I trust you?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Can we invoke the "Mutty Tendler" defense here and say that it's all a pack of lies just like the last Chelek of Igros Moshe?

The Bray of Fundie said...

The hazmonos are for real. Rav Moshe's z"l reaction to them being ignored is what I'm skeptical about.

Hirshel Tzig said...

well, if he sent Hazmonos, and they ignored them, would he be happy? why then be skeptical? you think he just forgot about them?

The Bray of Fundie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Bray of Fundie said...

Unlike RYH, RMF was a kind forgiving soul. It would not shock me if he were angry. He was entitled. But neither would it shock me if he forgot the whole thing.

Suffice it to say that IIRC RYH was much more scrupulous about fulfilling the Khazal כל ת"ח שאינו נוקם ונוטר כנחש אינו תלמיד חכם
than RMF was.

Enquiring Jew said...

Bray:

What you are missing about R' Moshe was that while his personal interactions were famously characterized by humility and forgiveness, when it came to Din Torah or Psak Halacha he exmplified Lo Sugooru Mipnei Ish (fear no man) and Lo Sakir Ponim Bamishpat (do not favor any person). So the reaction attributed to him was very much in keeping with his personality.

As to the credibility of my description of events, why not pick up the phone and call Reb Dovid. You can check it out as they say.

You keep missing the point though. Even if the whole Veretzky story never happened, does that make any difference with respect to CB's defiance of R' Moshe?

The Bray of Fundie said...

in another thread on this topic a commenter wrote that Rav Gustman told the Hanhala of YRCB that they need not respond to the hazmona. Ayen Shum. But your point about RMF personal interactions and role as an Av Beis Din are well taken. I stand corrected.

Chiam G.

Enquiring Jew said...

Bray:

"in another thread on this topic a commenter wrote that Rav Gustman told the Hanhala of YRCB that they need not respond to the hazmona. "
-----------------------------------

I responded on that thread 12/13/07(Gedolei HaWhat?!)to the Rav Gustman issue thanks for alerting me to it. I won't repeat it here you can look it up.

I also stand corrected on calling you a CB apologist. The very fact that you admit to standing corrected on anything sounds like a very normative frum jew approach to things.

I sense that CB probably knows that they massively messed this thing up. Unlike you however they don't have it in them to say I'm sorry I messed up how can I fix this. So instead they come up with all these fardreite terutzim why they haven't done what every cheder yingel knows is the right thing to do.