Tuesday, June 11, 2013

.....אבל אשמים אנחנו

:מ'דערציילט א מעשה אזוי
























One can imagine what took place at the wedding bar mitzvah of the young Reb Chaim Soloveitchik (Brisker.) He was the son of the Slutzker Rov, Reb Yoshe Ber, and a descendant of Reb Chaim Volozhiner. He was marrying the daughter of Reb Refoel Shapira, and she was the granddaughter of the Netziv of Volozhin. It was Yeshivishe royalty all around. They had their own yichus too. In short, the young groom bochur, for all his genius and humility may have been quite proud of the passing scene, had he stopped to take it all in. The groom bochur's father may have read his mind - and said the following: מיין נישט אז די אלע חשוב'ע רבנים און גאונים זענען דא צוליב דיר, זיי זענען געקומען צוליב מיר און די מחותן און די זיידע, so please don't get any ideas into your head. So the young groom bochur is said to have answered, "So why is so-and-so not here?" To which his father answered "That's where you're to blame. They weren't so impressed with you so they decided to pass. That lesson must've really been נושא פירות, because Reb Chaim's humility, his simplicity when it came to material matters, and his kindness despite his greatness was legendary.

Why do I say this to you today?

I get these nasty, unprovoked e-mails from the dredges of society trying to poke fun at me on this auspicious day. Auspicious because we're taught by our Rebbes that especially so on the days of הסתלקות Tzaddikim look down on those who try and follow in their ways and simply put help them in their material and spiritual needs. That may be difficult for the Hungarians and Yeshivaleit among you to understand, but that doesn't change the מציאות. Years ago I may have been hurt and disgusted by such comments; "How dare they?" but by now, with age and experience, all you feel is pity for these poor souls. They probably suffered at the hands of parents and melamdim who suffered under Hitler and his henchmen, and they cannot do anything but hate on others. They cannot stand the fact that other Jews, who may not look exactly like them, or speak Lh"K with same accent as them, are inspired on this day and by this Tzaddik. They grind their teeth, cursing under their acrid breath and rip down posters while walking the streets. They are bitter, bitter people. But we must love them too! We have no choice; G-d commanded us so. So one good deed for today would be to tell them that despite our differences and the way you feel about me we still love you, because you're still a member of Klal Yisroel, no matter what you say or how you feel. Don't turn the other cheek, but don't let him get to you, he's just in great pain and needs an outlet to express that hurt. That's why we say אלע שונאים זאלען פלאצען. Now that I've said that I may have negated the point I was about to make.....

What I was trying to say was that we are at fault. That we never took the time to do what we had to do as far as הפצת המעיינות is concerned. We never told the world properly about the great chesed that the eibershter did when he gave us the Rebbe. We assumed that all those who don't realize the Rebbe's attributes and qualities are haters. We believed that those who cling to their old-world beliefs and customs are fools, instead of respecting their beliefs but trying to show them that this generation needs a new approach. We figured that if we get it then the whole world should too! Just sell them cheap seforim, or just give it away! and they should be on their way... Organizations like Heichel Menachem - to their great credit - try to change that. They may get looks from the "geborener" but they have nothing to be ashamed about, because this is exactly what the Rebbe wants. Just like we realize that we need to "tweak" certain things for the unaffiliated, and we will defend with a vengeance - (you know what I mean...) So too can we realize that we can tweak it למעליותא if so necessary. True, some people may never be reached, but there are still plenty of good people who yearn for what Chassidus and the Rebbe have to offer, and they're waiting for you to come and teach them, to share with them about the Rebbe's Ohel and that he's פועל ישועות בקרב הארץ עד היום הזה ועד בכלל. Maybe on their level and their way, but they're still waiting, and we cannot let them wait any longer! Let this be one החלטה טובה on this great day.

























(If I ever expressed these thoughts in the 8+ years we're doing this, please forgive me)

135 comments:

Gaguim said...

Hirshel
thanks for the Rebbes photo, it is so rich... the simcha... the glow... the deep Rachmunas in the eyes...
Every year Gimel Tamuz...is a day of deep emotions for me... 19 years.. and I still feel the same....
I know the Rebbe is against my way of thinking... but I am still human

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Unknown

Here's my response to you

moshe moshel said...

That's very expessive of your proclaimed love.

shulem said...

Tzig,
You have a blog and you want comments, with one caveat, that they agree with you.That you are able to preach your Lubavitch theology to the choir and they agree,and agree and agree.That you can mock,preach to, accuse everyone else, outside of Chabad, and expect the choir to agree
Sorry,
That is not the way it works.

So lets start with your claim about
not enough הפצת המעיינות.
Actually, your hafotzeh is major overkill.You are practically giving away your Lubavitcher seforim, vein koineh.You spend millions of dollars to try and hand out in every Hemishe shul in the Greater New York area a weekly booklet with your Lubavitcher toirehs and again most end up in sheimos without even a glance given to them.Contrast that btw, to a thin weekly parsha sheet given out by Belz, that is full of toireh, chasidic thought, toiras rishoinim , vertlach from gedoley yisruel, daf hayoimy sugyeh and halocha that is widely read.
That is הפצת המעיינות, your guys in Lubavitch should learn from them.

shulem said...

Now another few "problems"

Why do you Lubavitchers think you have the only truth and have the right to target other groups youth knowing full well their parents and rabbunim disagree?
Especially egregious examples as the fellow from Williamsburg who knew the parents of the boys he was teaching did not want their kids , impressionable youngsters be brainwashed?
Does Lubavitch as a group actually have anything to offer:
Lets try and see:Are there any talmidei chachumim of major import?
Few and far between and a nice percentage of the knowledgeable ones studied elsewhere (which might explain why Chabad needs the הפצת המעיינות,veda"l)
How do i know that there are very few real talmidei chachumim?
Lets see:In the Torah world it's hard to hide.Every kraiz has heavyweight talmidei chachomim that are known and appreciated outside of their chassides and group.Rav Vozner,Rav Elyoshiv,R'Chaim Kanievsky,"R'Fishel Hershkowitz R'Usher Weiss, Reb Hershel Schachter from YU, these are just a few examples,there are many.
Where are their Chabad counterparts?
Chabad is so busy p.ring themselves and suddenly they "hide" their talmidei chachumim???
A simple visit to your local sefurim store will show that very little to zero, quality Jewish sefurim and publications come out of Crown Heights and other Chabad strongholds.
Lets even take a peek a what has been mentioned earlier, the studying of Rambam, which has produced almost no sefurim of note.
Why?
See next post

shulem said...

Why?
Because Lubavitch is busy with p.r and not very busy with substance.
Because Lubavitchers will never accept constructive criticism.If you do you are a hater.

Now have we discussed the major theological problems with Chabad?
Have we discussed the fact that a significant part of Chabad are Meshichisten? That will not accept Gimmel Tammuz at face value?
That push very close to red lines benogea shituf?
No we haven't discussed that and many other issues...

pitputim said...

Get over it you anti-lubavitchers. I see nothing of Belz in Melbourne, not even the broadsheet. I don't care if they give out their Toros, why should you?

You want to judge groups by how many seforim they put out?

Go to Lakewood. Go to the other big Kollels. There isn't a heck of a lot of stuff that one would buy and put on their shelves. The number of publications per "yungerman" is low. The number of chumros per second though, oh, that's rising.

What's a HUGE disgrace, is this

http://pitputim.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/litvishemisnagdishe-poor-taste/

Moshe Moshel said...

Pitput, maybe in melboune shipping is too expensive to bring in the new sefoim that are published by Lakewoods finest. I'll have you know, that a daily visit to BMG's botei medrash finds a new sefer being sold by a talmid on a almost daily basis. Many of these seforim tackle major halachic issues and the rest are lomdus, I'd venture you wouldn't have to much use for those. Regardless, you don't apreciate your religion being mocked by ignoramuses, don't be one.

The charges leveled, may be mocking but they have some merit.

Anonymous said...

With 60 years of Lakewood yeshiva I still have not one Pinchas Hirshprung created or a Rogotschover gaon. Not one person in Lakewood has become anything newsworthy. Living in the suburbs with no problems they still dont have a Maier Simcha of Devinsk or a Reb Chaim Ozer ....

I wonder why?

60 years in America and Boro Park is empty of any Rabbonim. I agree Reb Rishel who is 94 years old a big man but he was not raised in America. I mean american born Gedolim where are they!!! Well Lakewood didnt produce any.

Is Malkiel the Godol Hador? are his shiyur online? With all the Hasmodah and Great torah learning where is the production line of great Lakewood Gedolim. Dont blast chabad for not learning and producing gedolim where are the Great Torah Vidas Gedoli Yosroel ??

Has Mir in america produced any Hutners?

Leave chabad alone I can tell you nobody can learn like Reb Yisroel Friedman or Reb Meilich Zvibel lubavitch even if they had a New Rogotchever he would not look for kovod.

A friend of chabad

Scmerel said...

I would very much appreciate if you would rebut the "Al H'Torah V'Al H'Temurah".(particularly "shituf")

There is very little written there that doesn't mirror my experiences with Lubavitceher and their publications both in and out of 770.

Media Watch Group said...

Shulem
"Sorry,
That is not the way it works."
Sorry Mr Shulem, in the real world this is the way it DOES work in the real world, The Liberal NYT,CNN,NBC etc... will never cover or give a time for any viw that differs from their liberal mindset, So Hirshel does not have to give more freedom of speech, then the icons of freedom.

Veda Ma Shetoshiv said...

Shulem
"Actually, your hafotzeh is major overkill.You are practically giving away your Lubavitcher seforim, vein koineh"
What does that mean?
Do you know the figures of how many Chasidus Mevueres are being sold?
Do you know the figures of how many Shiurim Besefer Hatnya have been sold?
Do you have a idea of how many Shaar Hamoadim have been sold?
Do you have a idea of how many Shaar Halocha Uminhags have been sold?
Do you have a idea on the Biurim on Shaar Hayichud of Reb Yoel had been sold?

Did you see the numbers of seforim that were sold in Binyonai Heuma at Yat Kislev?
Did you see how many seforim are being sold at the BP Yat Kislev farbrengens?
You have a tendency to talk out of sheer hot air?

Yafkin Min Gulise said...

Shulem
".Contrast that btw, to a thin weekly parsha sheet given out by Belz, that is full of toireh, chasidic thought, toiras rishoinim , vertlach from gedoley yisruel, daf hayoimy sugyeh and halocha that is widely read."
Can you explain me the reason that Belz is producing it?
It has a torah of the Belzer Ruv once in 10 months, because it will be too much Belz for such a diluted item?
That shows you how much Belz is tolerated in their own leaflet?
Chabad has a agenda and they are not hiding under wraps of rishonim and nice toirelech, just for the sake of some guy saying shabos after the chulent, You know, Belz is putting out something nice, Or Belz has a lot of talent(even tough 2 weekly mamorim in the Alim are put out by Satmar Yungeliet, maybe more, but 2 for sure)
Chabad is not on a talent contest, they have to sell Penimius Hatorah ad Mesiras Nefesh, so they will not put out some toirelch for the bucher to say for his Shver.
But let me bust your balloon, I hang out in the same shul as you, and I do see people reading it.

Yafkin Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Why do you Lubavitchers think you have the only truth and have the right to target other groups youth knowing full well their parents and rabbunim disagree?"
Lubavich believes that the torah is the truth, and chabad is the truthfully penimus hatorah as the Alte Rebbe told them so.

Did you ever ask why Brisk thinks they are the true derech halimud? not Chasam sofer? or Chidushai Harim?

Did you ever ask a satmarer why his shitah is the truth?

the majority of the world who believe in some idea strongly, believe the truth is only by them?
So what's your foolish question here?

Yafkin Min Galuse said...

Shulem
".Every kraiz has heavyweight talmidei chachomim that are known and appreciated outside of their chassides and group.Rav Vozner,Rav Elyoshiv,R'Chaim Kanievsky,"R'Fishel Hershkowitz R'Usher Weiss, Reb Hershel Schachter from YU, these are just a few examples,there are many."
have you heard of a Yid by the name Reb Model Ashkenazi?
Have you ever heard of a Yid by the name Reb Hershel Greenberg?
Have you ever heard of a yid Reb Shulem Ber Levin?
Have you ever heard of a Yid by the name Reb Elye Landau?
Have you ever heard of the mechaber of the seforim Reshimas Shiurim on big part of Shas,of Connecticut?
Have you ever heard of the Mechaber of the seforim Mie Tal,Afika Yam, of France?
Check out this list then you will continue on your cursing binge

Seforim Maven said...

Moshe Moshel
90 percent of the seforim is a waste of paper...that's the reason it does not get out from Lakewood Daleth Ames, there is no need for them, When there is a good sefer in town the world knows it,
the last good sefer that was produced in Lakewood, is Rienmans Shufra Deshtoro

Yafkin Min Geluse said...

Shulem
"Lets see:In the Torah world it's hard to hide"
let me ask you?
I agree Chabad is known to have multiple agendas....
but a Chasidus like Ger or Sanz that the motto is 24/7 torah, its one track torah minded and they are explaining that this is all the besht had to offer
where is there Rav vozner or Rav Elyashev?
Sanz is learning shas for close to 70 years. Where is their Chebiner Ruv or Reb Mier arik? or Reb Fishele Herskowitz?
Reb fishele is a product of Spinker Kloiz in munkach, neve evn heard of the Klauzenburger ruv a a bocher. Please dont put in Reb Asher Wiess in the gallery of serious gedolim

Bp'er said...

shulem,
Very interesting of you to knock the likras shabbos compared to alim.
I daven in a "poileshe" shul in bp (yes, with my lubavitch tallis).
pinkt this shabbos unfortunately for me, my belzer neighbor at my table got to the likras shabbos first. The whole davening I'm peeking to see if he put it down already so I can grab it. No luck. The guy went thru it from cover to cover & then carried it home in his eiruv...
for me, the hasgacha pratis & chizuk I got from this fact after reading your diatribe, was mamash mchaya nfushis.

Madison Ave Pro said...

Shulem
"Contrast that btw, to a thin weekly parsha sheet given out by Belz, that is full of toireh, chasidic thought, toiras rishoinim , vertlach from gedoley yisruel, daf hayoimy sugyeh and halocha that is widely read."
I see that you are big PR guru
would you recommend for Ford to advertise there new 2014 Focus car, by promoting ads on Pantene shampoo, on a weekly basis?
would you recommend for GE to sell their new brand of air conditioner thru advertising Pringles on a weekly basis?
Both ads will hide their names, that the layman should not even get who is behind it

Anti Meshichist said...

Shulem
"Have we discussed the fact that a significant part of Chabad are Meshichisten? That will not accept Gimmel Tammuz at face value?"
I am ready to discuss the meshichisten who don't believe in Gimmel Tamuz, just give me the time of the day when you have time.

770 Macher said...

Shulem
"Because Lubavitch is busy with p.r and not very busy with substance.
Because Lubavitchers will never accept constructive criticism.If you do you are a hater.

Now have we discussed the major theological problems with Chabad?
It looks like you had a sleepless night on the matzav of Chabad, Ein Baal Haness Makir Benisoi, Chabad has no idea what friends they have out their with constructive substantial ideas, to fix the place, to its old glory, of the Alte chasidim and have geonim as all Kraizen..
I think that you should start immediately to provide, because we are wasting every day a upcomimg Asher Wiess, or a Real Mamin Bashem

shulem said...

Isaac from Pitputim,
Ever the apologist, ain't you mate?
Please...
I brought the example of the Belz parsha sheet to show how much quality Torah, Chasidic and otherwise can be published in a small four page sheet as opposed to Lubavitchs' incessant "attack" with tons (literally) of print sheet that overwhelms the sheimos bins, with nary a glance.
And I was not addressing if this sheet arrives in Melbourne, though I"m sure that if a sponsor was found it would be delivered there.I have nothing with Belz btw.

Obviously the output of QUALITY tora publications is a measure of torah learning, and this point was made by none other than the LUBAVITCHER REBBE himself!Who always pushed his own chasidim and everyone else to publish torah works.
The pity is that Lubavitcher chasidim by and large cannot publish QUALITY tora on any beyond beginner level.

Lastly, to your last point about Matzav.com.....
Really mind boggling that YOU yourself mention that Lubavitch would never acknowledge R'Shneour Kotlers yohrtzait, as you yourself point out, yet you call Matzav on it????
Actually Matzav has been there when it really counts, and that has been at the forefront of defending and raising monies for R'sholom Rubashkin.Nobody goes to Matzav to check out Lubavitch yahrtzaiten that are promoted very, very heavily by Chabad themselves.
Isaac, where is your logic?
Unless you had one to many at the gimmel tammuz farby in Yeshiva Centre

shulem said...

Yafkin min galuse,
You must be pretty desperate for any names of talmidei chachomim that you need to list a fiery sweet talking Meshichist in your list,eh???

The only ones on your list that are somewhat interesant are the Kalmanson brothers who are products of Lubavitcher yeshivos.That is interesant that a Lubavitcher yeshiva should produce talmidei chachomim of caliber.The terutz is that their Rebbe muvhok ,R'Goldberg was a talmid of R'Shimon if I "m not mistaken (there was a write up in Kfar Chabadabout him if i recall)
And the Kalmansons have been used way to much.Yes there are two or three talmidei chachomim of note.
Nu. nu.

The point was that Lubavitch kimat don't have any personality who would be approached for his opinion if he was NOT Lubavitch.Let me explain:Rav Vozner is approached because first and foremost he is a talmid chochom.Quoted and respected by everyone.Is their any lubavitcher posek that gets any respect by non lubavitchers? Is used as a maan deomar, despite being a lubavitcher?
Are there any Lubavitcher magidei shiurim in non lubavitch yeshivos?
Simply put lubavitch is empty of talmidei chachomim of note.
It's also worrisome that even the abilty to read basic ivreh is a problem by the new crop of bt shluchim, as seen at the annual kinnus of lubavitch where shluchem could not even read tehillim!!
Nu, nu.
Btw, R'Usher Weiss is a world class talmid chochom by any standard, whether your jealous heart likes it or not.Lubavitch has nobody even close.

Bottom line:If you have real Torah, you can farkoyf "pnimiyus"
And if you want fake pnimyus go to Philip Bergs Kabbalah center.

shulem said...

By the way, I"m surprised that in your short list of yodei sefer out of the four thousand shluchim, you never mention R'Ezra Schochat "the rosh".
Problem is he never studied in any Lubavitcher yeshiva.
A product of the finest Lutvishe yeshivas

moshe moshel said...

Mai ahanu lei rabonon seems the be the aftermath of gimmel tammuz.

Do you know why your Rebbe wrote a mafteach to sdei chemed? Because he expected everyone to be conversant in it. Ketzos and shmatsa too....

moshe moshel said...

Bonus question: how many shmaitsas are there?

No cheating.

shulem said...

Bp'er ,
Nice tall tale.
Firstly you the Lubavitcher davening in a non existent "Peilishe" shul in BP with a Belzer as your table mate.
Yeah, I believe you.

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"he only ones on your list that are somewhat interesant are the Kalmanson brothers who are products of Lubavitcher yeshivos.That is interesant that a Lubavitcher yeshiva should produce talmidei chachomim of caliber.The terutz is that their Rebbe muvhok ,R'Goldberg was a talmid of R'Shimon if I "m not mistaken (there was a write up in Kfar Chabadabout him if i recall)
And the Kalmansons have been used way to much.Yes there are two or three talmidei chachomim of note.
Nu. nu."
So the Kalmansons cant be counted because of their Rebbe in a Chabad Yeshiva was a talmid of Reb Shimon

Why is Reb Mottel Askenazi not counted? is he not a Lamdan? Are Reb chaim Kanievsky or Reb fishele Bigger lomdim then him?

Why are the other ones not counted?
Whats their problem?

shulem said...

Some may think that saying that Lubavitch has few talmidei chachomim of any caliber (besides a few Meshichisten and sympathisers, that unfortunately fall into the category of "kol talmid chochom shein boi daas" that is beyond the scope of this discussion)is being harshe.
So lets try and make an analysis.
The average Lubavitcher bochur learns in his respective yeshiva till about 19, when he is sent on "shlichus" for a year or two.
Lets discuss a serious boy here.What level of learning can be attained before being shuttled around on "shliches" and "kevutza"?
I do not believe that serious imn depth learning is attainable on "shlichus" for most boys.Firstly because the yeshivas they are going to be mechazek do not have very advanced magidei shiur for them.
In any case after returning to 770 and learning thru semicha, lite, they are married off at 23/4/5 and at best get to spwend a year in Rabbi Hellers Kolel.
Nu, is that the way to be megadel real talmidei chachomim?On shlichus, with all the tirdos and without serious chavrusas it is almost impossible to become a real talmid chochom.
After that the same people who have weak learning skills become maggidei shiurim in Lubavitcher yeshivas and the vicious cycle of ignorance continues.
They may be well meaning but it's tough if you are ignorant

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"You must be pretty desperate for any names of talmidei chachomim that you need to list a fiery sweet talking Meshichist in your list,eh???"
You can replace him with Reb Liebel Shapira a non Meshicist. Or with Rav Gerlitzky a non Meshichist

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Bottom line:If you have real Torah, you can farkoyf "pnimiyus"
And if you want fake pnimyus go to Philip Bergs Kabbalah center."

Can I say the same statement on the Arizal and Reb Chaim vital, and the Leshem too?

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"The average Lubavitcher bochur learns in his respective yeshiva till about 19, when he is sent on "shlichus" for a year or two.
Lets discuss a serious boy here.What level of learning can be attained before being shuttled around on "shliches" and "kevutza"?"
I think that in every chasidic place by 19 you are a finsihed product married and a jon at B&H photo

bp'er said...

shulem'l,
that's ok. but from your attitude, it's not surprising that you think i made it up.
but my point was how much chizuk i got from it.
it wasn't meant for you.
you need a good doctor for some well needed chizuk.

shulem said...

yafken stop throwing out "names" that we have to "trust" an untrusty nogea baduver like you.Do you think people are silly?
The only thing i know about R'Gerlitzky is that his talmidim liked him well enough to buy him a car for his birthday.
i was modeh that the Kalmansons are talmidei chachumim of caliber, which can be seen by their sefurim.Which btw, were written before the very popular Lubavitcher shortcut of "otsar hachochma" became available

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Some may think that saying that Lubavitch has few talmidei chachomim of any caliber (besides a few Meshichisten and sympathisers, that unfortunately fall into the category of "kol talmid chochom shein boi daas" that is beyond the scope of this discussion)is being harshe.
So lets try and make an analysis"
Is Reb Sruel Friedman, Reb Elye Landau , Reb Yossel Eisenbach, Rav Goldberg of Migdal Emek, Rav Kramer of Montreal etc.. are they Talmidie chacomim shein boi daas

shulem said...

"I think that in every chasidic place by 19 you are a finsihed product married and a jon at B&H photo"

OK,
So now you are showing yourself to know absolutely nothing of anything besides your adopted kreiz Lubavitch.
Been a long time since you joined Lubavitch, eh?

I"m talking about serious learning boys, thousands of which join full time kollel here and in Eretz Yisruel and England.
Lubavitch has Rabbi Hellers kolel for a year

moshe moshel said...

Seform maven claims "the last good sefer that was produced in Lakewood, is Rienmans Shufra Deshtoro"

I ask, and that you do understand? After having critically reviewed every sefer since, in depth no doubt.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, Moshe. I can vouch that he has.

Yafken Min Galuse said...

BPER
Shulem has his mind made up, no facts will ever change him, even if I will show him multiple Jews talmidai Chachomi mivhokim who learn the Rebbes Torah for 50 years, and never visited 770 in thie life. I happen to know Reb Fishele well, he learned every item that was printed of the Rebbe for years.
In his talks to me and many of my friends, he was talking about the Rebbe with big Hispalous, the Rebbes Ahavas Yisroel, the Rebbes Ahavas Eretz Yisroel, The Rebbes Hafotzas penimius hatorah, He is from the Zidichover chieder where learning penimius hatorah is a must for every one.

moshe moshel said...

Mevines oif a maven, it takes one to know one, sorry, but how would you know? Do you know how many שמעתתא's there are? Admit, you don't. So your going to tell me mevinus on some loser disparaging hundreds and hundreds of seforim written by talmidei chachomim as being less than "good" cmon!

Seforim Maven said...

Moshe Moshel
"I ask, and that you do understand? After having critically reviewed every sefer since, in depth no doubt."
I did not say that I saw each sefer that is printed from the house of Lakewood, but I saw too much, and as I said non of them are worthwhile to pass the outer bridge crossing to Brooklyn,since you are on that subject, I was very disappointing on the seforim of Rav ulshin.....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the only loser here may be you throwing mud on a guy you know N O T H I N G about...

זיבן שמעתתאס כנגד די זיבן נשיאי חב"ד

Seforim Maven said...

Moshe Moshel
"Mevines oif a maven, it takes one to know one, sorry, but how would you know? Do you know how many שמעתתא's there are?"
I don't know how old you are, but the Shifra Deshtoro made waves, when it came out.... get me a other sefer of the last 10 years that was a hit in the torah world.
BTW, I think that Rienamn is persona non grata in the Lakewood of today that is under the influence of the right wing

shulem said...

There is another issue here.
Becoming a talmid chochom is not easy
אלף נכנסים למקרא, יוצא מהן אחד להוראה
But we see that Rabbi Akiva started at forty, Onkelos hager and others overcame the late start.
Krumkait however is something that one needs a non krummeh teacher for because many years of learning will only make you a bigger boki with the same krumkait
Try discussing logic with a lubavitcher , even a ruv, try read their toirelech, their explanations for their minhugim, see if it's shayach, if it's even reasonable to expect any real toireh peiros from such sources...Try discuss moshiach issues
This is something which is simple to anyone who is objective, but cannot pass muster with this cencorship here, v'ein kan homukom lehaarich, veda"l.

Why is all this nogea to non Lubavitchers?
Lubavitch has become a force where there are few or no other rabbunim,they are very media savvy.And they are mashgichim for many of the top kashres agencies in places where lots of food products are produced.
So now we have media savvy rabbis who know very little representing "Judaism", and we have well meaning mashgichim..

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"I do not believe that serious imn depth learning is attainable on "shlichus" for most boys.Firstly because the yeshivas they are going to be mechazek do not have very advanced magidei shiur for them."
I tought its a plus that a bocher by 19 gets out to be a marbitz torah himself, but as it goes by you people that love chabad... everything that looks logic is vice versa, and we are ignorant and stupid we don't get it

moshe moshel said...

Hirshel, do you even own a ketzos, nesivos or a shev shmaitsa?... Duh! Of course not. Does your sons? Do his classmates? S'iz ba enk nisht vichtig.

shulem said...

"Is Reb Sruel Friedman, Reb Elye Landau , Reb Yossel Eisenbach, Rav Goldberg of Migdal Emek, Rav Kramer of Montreal etc.. are they Talmidie chacomim shein boi daas"

Are they Meshichists or do they sympathise with them?
If they are you can figure it out by yourself.

If not, wonderful

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"n any case after returning to 770 and learning thru semicha, lite, they are married off at 23/4/5 and at best get to spwend a year in Rabbi Hellers Kolel.
Nu, is that the way to be megadel real talmidei chachomim?"
You are correct, it is not the goal of chabad to produce gedolim,
Gedolim are against the essence of chasidim bichlal and chabad bifrat

shulem said...

Interesting, that Tzig, stands up zealously, for some poster , but allows R'Usher Weiss, a world class talmid chuchem to be disparaged, with no title even.

moshe moshel said...

Thank hebrewbooks.com for that info.

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Are there any Lubavitcher magidei shiurim in non lubavitch yeshivos?"
Are there Satmar magidie shiur in belz? or the opposite?
And if for hypothetical arguments, Rav Kalmanson will apply for a job to be a simple mashgiach at nite in Yeshiva of Edison, will they give him a job even a non paid?
Its a embarrassment for Chabad that you are their Yedid

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Shulem , you're a namesless, faceless rabblerouser to me. A Johnny-come-lately, if you will. You come in here and shoot your mouth, spreading the same lies we've heard here for 8+ years. I'm tired of your kind. All power to Reb Usher, but plz don't put him in the league of Reb Chaim or Rav Elyashiv. You kinda destroy your own argument that way.

Oh! and the lack of title wasn't meant to be disparaging.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Moshe

If you must know, I own all three of them.

And you're a ferd.

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem


Interesting, that Tzig, stands up zealously, for some poster , but allows R'Usher Weiss, a world class talmid chuchem to be disparaged, with no title even."
You are correct that Reb Usher Wiess deserve a title Reb or Harav

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but please tell us, what makes RUW a "world-class" Talmid Chochom?

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Are they Meshichists or do they sympathise with them?
If they are you can figure it out by yourself."
who are you to decide where the well of DAAS is located?
so far you wrote long posts and Daas did not shine thru...

shulem said...

"You are correct, it is not the goal of chabad to produce gedolim,
Gedolim are against the essence of chasidim bichlal and chabad bifrat"

Notice,
I did not say GEDOLIM, which would be a red flag for a Lubavitcher gevorener, I said "real talmdei chachomim"!
You yourself (with a different name) was hacking about the chashives of knowing kol hatoireh kulo, as per shulchan oruch harav, therefore one should learn Rambam,like the rebbe said.

Anyway, I do believe that your answer leshitoschem is correct.You have no interest in being megadel talmidei chachomim.True.You won't be able to farkoyk a lot of things if there were real tamlidei chachomim to stop you (see the case of the meshichist movement>>)

Seforim Maven said...

Hirshel
"but please tell us, what makes RUW a "world-class" Talmid Chochom?"
Reb Usher Wiess wrote nice seforim al hatorah with lots of bekius. There are so many of this style seforim on the market, and he is no original at all, he pales against Chvatzeles Hashoran of Carelbach, but the other ones dont have his blessed sheminis shebeshminis, that at the end haunts him and will bite him more. just listen to him on Kol haloshan, its not believe that he was a talmid of a Oived Hashem like the Klausenburger

moshe moshel said...

For a Lubavitcher to own all three is mamish a cause for a round of aplause! Bravo Hirshel! Bravo! You own a ketzos nesivos and a shev shmaitsa. We won't ask how used they are or if you plan on publishing your hagahos.

shulem said...

"Shulem , you're a namesless, faceless rabblerouser to me. A Johnny-come-lately, if you will. You come in here and shoot your mouth, spreading the same lies we've heard here for 8+ years. I'm tired of your kind"

I've tried to tone the rhetoric down
It would probably be better for your cause if you actually challenged the statements instead of getting angry.
Btw, I was NOT referring to you when I said someone was referring to R'Usher with total disrespect.Furthermore, R'Usher was mentioned as an acknowledged talmid chuchem of caliber and was not meant to be put in any "leagues".

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Notice,
I did not say GEDOLIM, which would be a red flag for a Lubavitcher gevorener, I said "real talmdei chachomim"!
You yourself (with a different name) was hacking about the chashives of knowing kol hatoireh kulo, as per shulchan oruch harav, therefore one should learn Rambam,like the rebbe said.

Anyway, I do believe that your answer leshitoschem is correct.You have no interest in being megadel talmidei chachomim.True.You won't be able to farkoyk a lot of things if there were real tamlidei chachomim to stop you (see the case of the meshichist movement>>)"
First time I was caught Red handed with a lishotosoi lomdus. For a good answer look it up in the Kesef nivcher, who is big on that derech

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Moshe

I'll write הגהות on your sefer, deal?

shulem said...

Yafken,
"who are you to decide where the well of DAAS is located?"

I"m nobody to decide.But it's not me, everyone sees the Meshichsts as being bli daas.Actually I"m more partial to the view that sees them as shoitim as opposed to serious talmidei chachomim who hold that you cannot use them as shochtim and mashgichim because of their deos pesulos.
I guess you hold that their views are ok, in that case, best case scenario you are feeble minded

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Try discussing logic with a lubavitcher , even a ruv, try read their toirelech, their explanations for their minhugim, see if it's shayach, if it's even reasonable to expect any real toireh peiros from such sources...Try discuss moshiach issues
This is something which is simple to anyone who is objective, but cannot pass muster with this cencorship here, v'ein kan homukom lehaarich, veda"l."
So if Lubavivh learning is Krum, so we are better off that they stop at 19, less learning less krum....they are better off not even starting to learn, and they will stay with reb Asher Wiesses Sechel Hayosher

moshe moshel said...

Start sharpening your pencils

Seforim Maven said...

Moshe Moshel
"For a Lubavitcher to own all three is mamish a cause for a round of aplause! Bravo Hirshel! Bravo! You own a ketzos nesivos and a shev shmaitsa. We won't ask how used they are or if you plan on publishing your hagahos."
You really think, that Ketzois Nesivois, Brisker ruv, Reb shimom is not quoted in the shiurim in Lubavicher yeshivahs? how about blood in the chabad Matzohs?

shulem said...

"Reb Usher Wiess wrote nice seforim al hatorah with lots of bekius"

Actually they were taken from his shiurim, not written by him.His shiurim are excellent in three languages.
And i"m not going to get into anymore about it because you fellows are just jealous

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"everyone sees the Meshichsts as being bli daas."
its Everyone, now I get it,

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

we'll trade you Reb Yoel for Reb Usher. How's that?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and my eraser too...

shulem said...

Yafken,
You deserve the Moshe Kapoyer WORLD CLASS prize for a frummeh kop

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"And i"m not going to get into anymore about it because you fellows are just jealous "
Jealous on whom?
is he the person that "Everyone" think of him as a godal

shulem said...

Friends,
parnusseh beckons.
Be well
And we may continue to discuss this

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Actually they were taken from his shiurim, not written by him"
So what are you saying, thats why its better then Chavales Hashoran or Lehoirois Nussen, or Surutzkins works al hatorah....

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"You deserve the Moshe Kapoyer WORLD CLASS prize for a frummeh kop"
are we done? can I go back to milk my cow?

Yafken Min Galuse said...

shulem
"Btw, I was NOT referring to you when I said someone was referring to R'Usher with total disrespect.Furthermore, R'Usher was mentioned as an acknowledged talmid chuchem of caliber and was not meant to be put in any "leagues".
Bizoyan talmid chohem is for every talmid chochem. even the ones that are not "Acknowledged " by you and "Everyone"

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Why is all this nogea to non Lubavitchers?
Lubavitch has become a force where there are few or no other rabbunim,they are very media savvy.And they are mashgichim for many of the top kashres agencies in places where lots of food products are produced.
So now we have media savvy rabbis who know very little representing "Judaism", and we have well meaning mashgichim."
I read this lines a few times with my Krumme Kup, and I still cant fathom the depth of your profound sentences, please rewrite it for the lower elements to get it too

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"So now we have media savvy rabbis who know very little representing "Judaism","
Who represented better true Judaism in Germany? Rav Tiechtal that knows noting and has a krumme kup, or the shach appointed Godal Goldschmidt?

Anonymous said...

What he means is that ameratzim r rabbis and mashgichim




yukl fin rosh chodesh

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Shulem
"Actually I"m more partial to the view that sees them as shoitim as opposed to serious talmidei chachomim who hold that you cannot use them as shochtim and mashgichim because of their deos pesulos."
on what did you base your view vs. the Talmidai chachoim,
are you a talmid chochem too?
Can you share your sources????
its a very important sugya

Yafken Min Galuse said...

Yukel
"What he means is that ameratzim r rabbis and mashgichim"
Why does OU give a job for a Am Heortz? Does the halacha demand a talmid chochem for the Mashgiach Job

pitputim said...

Shulim:

Isaac from Pitputim,
Ever the apologist, ain't you mate?

Hardly! If you read my blog, I speak my mind.

Please...
I brought the example of the Belz parsha sheet to show how much quality Torah, Chasidic and otherwise can be published in a small four page sheet as opposed to Lubavitchs' incessant "attack" with tons (literally) of print sheet that overwhelms the sheimos bins, with nary a glance.

We get this pamphlet called "De Chassidishe Parsha", I've got to tell you, that I find it thoroughly uninspiring. I'm actually more inclined to read the weekly sheet that is on Choshen Mishpat by some a crowd in the USA. I have to say, that I do have problems with Belz per se, and was denigrated by a Gerrer Chossid for daring to ask about that last speech given before he and his brother escaped during the Holocaust. That has nothing to do with individuals. There is a Belzer Chossid, who is a Tayreh Yid, who lives in my mother's street. I hope his grandchildren follow his footsteps (and no, he's not ancient)

And I was not addressing if this sheet arrives in Melbourne, though I"m sure that if a sponsor was found it would be delivered there.I have nothing with Belz btw.

Is it available online, aka Klipas Noga? If so, I'm quite willing to print and read and react.

Obviously the output of QUALITY tora publications is a measure of torah learning, and this point was made by none other than the LUBAVITCHER REBBE himself!Who always pushed his own chasidim and everyone else to publish torah works.
The pity is that Lubavitcher chasidim by and large cannot publish QUALITY tora on any beyond beginner level.

Do me a big favour. I speak "in learning" every day with R' Shea Hecht, who gives a Rogatchover Shiur each week. He's a Gaon, and he has written Seforim, and this is just the Shteeble around the corner from my house.

Lastly, to your last point about Matzav.com.....
Really mind boggling that YOU yourself mention that Lubavitch would never acknowledge R'Shneur Kotlers yohrtzait, as you yourself point out, yet you call Matzav on it????

Ahem, and you think that I agree with ANY group not mentioning others? You think I was happy when the idiots cut out a picture of the Rav, when he was sitting and talking to R' Moshe and R' Aron Kotler?
Es feilt idiots? But Matzav is meant to report all things in the Torah world! That's the real Avla. It's a distorted view and a complete and utter disgrace.

Actually Matzav has been there when it really counts, and that has been at the forefront of defending and raising monies for R'sholom Rubashkin.Nobody goes to Matzav to check out Lubavitch yahrtzaiten that are promoted very, very heavily by Chabad themselves.

I see, because R" Sholem is helped by Matzav, that means they shouldn't mention R' Sholem's Rebbe? We all know only too well, that R' Sholem was loved as an employer by ALL kraizen because he is an Ohev Yisrael.

pitputim said...

[continued, as a response to Shulim]


Isaac, where is your logic?
Unless you had one to many at the gimmel tammuz farby in Yeshiva Centre

It's completely intact. In fact I have NEVER been to a Gimmel Tammuz Farbrengen in my life! I went to the live video link of the Levaya back then. In fact, I can't understand people who call the day "Gimmel Tamuz" as a euphemism for a Yom Hilula/Yohr Tzeit. Call a spade a spade.
You have the wrong address, kiddo.
What's different between me and you is that despite my having issues both pro and con various groups, I absolutely loathe SHEKER. Matzav's page that day epitomised SHAKRANUS.

To be clear, if there was a Lakewood web page, I would not expect them to mention the Lubavitcher Rebbe (or these days, even the Rav) but Matzav.com does not portray itself as something belonging to a particular group. The editors and editorial policy stinks to high hell if they can't mention the Yohr Tzeit of one of the Geonei and Manhigei HaDor.

Ay, he has some mad chassidim who are meshichisten. That's a tragedy, a real tragedy. Those complete morons who were taking Kos Shel Bracha and Dollars really need to see a psychiatrist for grief counselling, and a decent Mashpia to set up a derech where they can find meaning in life.

To the person who said that shipping to Australia is too expensive; think again. I have the latest Minchas Asher Chelek A, Mesoras Moshe ... do tell me about the famous Seforim in Lakewood over the last year, say, that I may have missed out on because of "shipping costs".

Grossman said...

This discussion is silly. Exceptional people are not 'raised' in any insitution, they are exceptional regardless of where they were raised.

A little like Albert Einsteins high school taking credit for his greatness.

For the record, I'm chabad and a big fan of R Weiss - the only shiur on kol Halashon I've found thats clear enough to listen to while commuting.

Thanks,

orensbe said...

pretty sure the opening story is told about R Chaim's brother. The story may be in R Karlinsky book on the Beis HaLevy, but I may be wrong about where I saw it.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

שוין
the point stands, no? no matter which son it happened with.

moshe moshel said...

I wanted to visit, but you not listed in the smartlist phonebook

shulem said...

Isaac from Pitputim,
I appreciate that you have taken time to respond.
So some points:Your general response to the claim that Lubavitchers are by and large not learned is to say that you know of a certain R'Hecht, who is a gaon.You add that "and this is just the Shteeble around the corner from my house."
Isaac, I feel your logic here very lacking.Let's say that Einstein lived around the block from you.Would that prove that there were many Einsteins in the world???
All you can claim is that you think Rabbi Hecht is learned and since I surmise, that the good rabbi is Chabad, you have found one Chabadnik who knows how to learn.Ok.Had, you seen my posts, I never said that no Chabanik knows how to learn, I just said that I find them by and large to not be very learned, with some obvious exceptions.I don't know Rabbi Hecht and he may indeed be a genius.

Sorry to belabor the point

shulem said...

Continuation of reply to Isaac from pitputim,
I see that you are outraged at Matzav,and you call them Shakranus (capitalized)I fail to see why you are so riled up.They OMITTED mention of the yohrtzait, yiou can call them to task for the omission, but where is the lie??
But let's try and go deeper.Do you think the people at Matzav really care if it was gimmel tammuz? Do you think they see it as newsworthy? I can't speak for them, but for the non Lubavitchers Gimmel Tammuz is a non event.Maybe for you in Melbourne it's difficult to understand that, since Lubavitch has much more influence in Melbourne.In New York, Crown Heights is a small community that is not within walking distance of the other much larger Orthodox ones.Additionally it is a high crime ghetto that your average Heimishe does not get to visit very often.
So you would want Matzav to publish something just to kiss up, not because they actually believe in its importance? C'mon now, I thought you loved truth??.

shulem said...

Continuation of response to Isaac,

" We all know only too well, that R' Sholem was loved as an employer by ALL kraizen because he is an Ohev Yisrael."

Since you love the truth, I have to tell you that I don't know if your above statement is true.
The struggle for Rubashkin was not based on that in my opinion.It was based on the idea that a fellow yid would be sent for a very long prison sentence for relatively minor indiscretions with minor criminal intent.Ultimately the bank lost a lot of money, but Rubashkin did not plan on that happening.
I personally think he is a positive man who made mistakes

Obviously there was a lot of rachmunus on the wife and kids, but a fellow from kiryas joel, who knowingly arranged a scam, got sent away for many years, and the community did not have the same response.
As an aside, I think Rubashkin got some very bad and vocal advice, especially from his Lubavitcher supporters who thought that turning this case into antisemitism would somehow help.The Munkatcher Rebbe, chakimeh deyuhudoi, advised them to settle quietly, they would have done better if they had listened

shulem said...

Last but not least.
The MESHICHIST ISSUE

" Those complete morons who were taking Kos Shel Bracha and Dollars really need to see a psychiatrist for grief counselling,"

The ones taking kois shel brocha for the most part never knew the Rebbe and don't need grief counselling.
Their enablers and sympathisers, who are many are the real culprits, including the Melbourne dayan, who, not only won't take a stand against them, also appears to be a sympathiser.That is a real tragedy as you correctly say.But I feel that you are minimizing it.
Actually the meshichist group is quite powerful, they managed to force the non meshichists to include yechi by the big lag baomer parade.They rule 770 and have the largest Lubavitch yeshiva in the world, and are only growing in strength

Moshe Moshel said...

Seforim Maven, Hirshel has annointed you as a great talmid chuchim and maven on seforim. Tell me, did you aquire your great geonic knowledge in some Lubavitcher yeshiva or during your pior life in some not to be mentioned kehila/chasidus like our host here R' Hirshel?

מענדל said...

דער רד"ל איז אמאל געפארן מיט ר' נחמי' דובראוונער . אין מיטן וועג האט דע רד"ל גענומען רעדן מיט עם אין לערנען האט ער געזען אז ער האט צוטאן מיט א גאון אדיר. פרעגט דער רד"ל ביי ר' נחמי'ען פארוואס הערט מען ניט פון אייך? דערציילט ער עם אז א מוכר ספרים איז אריין צו א רב און זעט ביי עם זעלטענע ספרים פרעגט ער דעם רב, פון מיינע ספרים ווייסן אלע, פארוואס ווייס קיינער ניט אז איר האט די ספרים? זאגט עם דער רב, ביי מיר איז דאס פארזיך ביי אייך איז דאס פאר יענעם.... והמבין יבין.
מענדל

shulem said...

Seforim Maven (vechol sh'or kinuyov) IS CLEARLY not a lubavitch grad.
But his "mevines" is quite suspect

Seforim Maven said...

Moshe Moshel
"Tell me, did you aquire your great geonic knowledge in some Lubavitcher yeshiva or during your pior life in some not to be mentioned kehila/chasidus like our host here R' Hirshel?"

Am I on the defendants seat? I think I am not, ant you aint no judge

David Berger said...

Shulem
"The ones taking kois shel brocha for the most part never knew the Rebbe and don't need grief counselling.
Their enablers and sympathisers, who are many are the real culprits, including the Melbourne dayan, who, not only won't take a stand against them, also appears to be a sympathiser.That is a real tragedy as you correctly say.But I feel that you are minimizing it.
Actually the meshichist group is quite powerful, they managed to force the non meshichists to include yechi by the big lag baomer parade.They rule 770 and have the largest Lubavitch yeshiva in the world, and are only growing in strength"
thanks for your analysis of the current situation of Chabad, I hope chabad will use your thorough work, to change the situation for the better

David Berger said...

Shulem
"Since you love the truth, I have to tell you that I don't know if your above statement is true.
The struggle for Rubashkin was not based on that in my opinion.It was based on the idea that a fellow yid would be sent for a very long prison sentence for relatively minor indiscretions with minor criminal intent.Ultimately the bank lost a lot of money, but Rubashkin did not plan on that happening.
I personally think he is a positive man who made mistakes"
You have no proof that Pitputim is not correct, you just added your gevaldige toughts, but it is not contradicting Issac what so ever.
But thanks anyway, since your authentic way of thinking is fresh air, on all pertaining chabad and Rubashkin

David Berger said...

shulem
"I appreciate that you have taken time to respond.
So some points:Your general response to the claim that Lubavitchers are by and large not learned is to say that you know of a certain R'Hecht, who is a gaon.You add that "and this is just the Shteeble around the corner from my house."
I have all the respect for your way of thinking, its loaded with logic, that's very rare today to see people writing on subjects with so much crystal clear rational. But Don't you think that Reb Osher Wiess who is the biggest upcoming Sar Hatorah in our generation, also just fell in to Klauzenburg as Einstein in the shteebel around the corner.

shulem said...

R'Hirshel asked what makes R'Usher Weiss a world class talmid chochom.
Well, he is a boki in Bavli and Yerushalmi, he gives a daf hayomy shiur in both bavly and yerushalmy.Besides for being a respected posek.Unlike some claims against people who only know yeshivishe masechtes, he is widely proficient in the whole tora.Besides for that he is a great dissemenator of torah in Hebrew,Yiddish and English.
There are very few well rounded rabbonim like this.
To me that is a world class talmid chochom.
For seforim maven and Hirshel that does not mean much and that's ok.Their standards are much, much higher.That is ok.For regular,non lubavitch folks, with "lower" expectations, like myself, knowing both talmudim clearly is a high standard

David Berger said...

Shulem
"But let's try and go deeper.Do you think the people at Matzav really care if it was gimmel tammuz? Do you think they see it as newsworthy? I can't speak for them, but for the non Lubavitchers Gimmel Tammuz is a non event.Maybe for you in Melbourne it's difficult to understand that, since Lubavitch has much more influence in Melbourne.In New York, Crown Heights is a small community that is not within walking distance of the other much larger Orthodox ones.Additionally it is a high crime ghetto that your average Heimishe does not get to visit very often."
You are correct that Lubavich is a nobody group, with 300 familes in a crime ridden neighbor hood(Is this also a reason to ignore them?, why because they live with crime?)
But you don't think that a event in a queens cemetery where 800 people (included the janitors)go to some Kever, is a event worth mentioning as the Krechnifer Sigeter sons wedding to Krechnifer Ranna rebbes daughter?

shulem said...

Wonder how Lekutei Sichos compares with Chavatzeles Hashoroin?

charles the third said...

Pitput, I think the belzer reference was to alim letrufa

David Berger said...

Shulem
"Wonder how Lekutei Sichos compares with Chavatzeles Hashoroin?"
Currently their are 2 freshman in Yu and Bar Ilan, writing doctorates on that particular subject

David Berger said...

Shulem
"Besides for being a respected posek"
in which universe is he considered a possek?
In Iowa? or in Wyoming?

David Berger said...

Shulem
"Well, he is a boki in Bavli and Yerushalmi, he gives a daf hayomy shiur in both bavly and yerushalmy"
have you ever seen the lists of the Aguda and OU Magidai shiur on Daf Yomi?
Is he on that list? did they put him in a gray shaded bracket?

David Berger said...

Shulem
"There are very few well rounded rabbonim like this."
As I told you before your analysis is great.... there are very few Rabonim like him

Seforim Maven said...

Shulem
"For seforim maven and Hirshel that does not mean much and that's ok.Their standards are much, much higher.That is ok.For regular,non lubavitch folks, with "lower" expectations, like myself, knowing both talmudim clearly is a high standard"
unfortunate you cant trace no big usage of Bavli and yerushalmi in all his works. He is a good melaket of achronim on subjects. which is a big industry today...
I guess you never saw the torah real great talmidie chachomim as the Chebiner Ruv and the Klie chemda who were walking thru bavli and Yerushalmi in all their writings.
Reb Usher Wiess is a other melaket on the block...and not a bad one..

Moshe Moshel said...

Usher weiss merited your aproval, your in an awful good mood today, seforim maven.

Instead of da"ch try publishing some nigleh of your own.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

how disparaging of you, Moshe Moshel, to write Usher, no Rabbi, HaRav, or מרן

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I expect Shulem to condemn this heinous act immediately!

Seforim Maven said...

Moshe Moshel said...

" Usher weiss merited your aproval, your in an awful good mood today, seforim maven.

Instead of da"ch try publishing some nigleh of your own. "
I am still from the alte chasidim, we chas veshulem dont print Nigleh for bragging...

Moshe Moshel said...

Oy! Chotosi!

Anonymous said...

sefurem guy,
if someone is not the klei chemda,the chebiner or r meir arik, do they not count?
well known ploy of putting people down


shulem

Seforim Maven said...

Anon
Anonymous said...

sefurem guy,
if someone is not the klei chemda,the chebiner or r meir arik, do they not count?
well known ploy of putting people down"
its was no intention to put you down, it was just to tame the amateurish statement of knowing Bavli and Yerushalmi.....by giving a shiur.You are correct, their is alot of Mileage between them and our generation,even Reb Chaim Kanievsky who knows Kol hatorah, Does not have the Lomdus that they had.
The writer was trying to portray some Goan hadoir, that we should all be in awe of him . I just answered that he writes nice seforim and has good oratory skills to deliver it, and thats it. His brother the SIL of the Divrie Yatziv, is a real Talmid chochem with no fluff and no oratory skills. But still the real McCoy, eventough he does not talk the 3 Languages.
You need a little havchona.....

Gitmo live said...

Three months of it

An Eppes said...

They used to disseminate in my shul the pamphlet called "likras Shabbos" from the LR (Last Rebbe). I have few points:
1) Why is the format academic in nature (and distinct from all other formats in our history)?

2) Why does it take so long to get to the point?

3) Why did they stop brininging them!!! I was an avid perusor of the works.

Anonymous said...

what i don't get is how come no one was מעיר about the sheker that was repeated here a few time that reb yosef goldberg zt"l was a talmid of reb shimon. it never happened. he always leaned in lubavitch.
to add to the list of first class talmidei chachomim in lubavitch is reb yisroel labkowski shlit"a. a geon nifle (shloi lefi erech the misnagdisher mechunach from California)נחבא אל הכלים.
there used to be reb sholom morozow zt"l. ay reb sholom. i doubt there is someone in the intire world today as big of a gaon as him. besides knowing shas and daled chelkei shulchan oruch (one could literally not catch him on a minor seif koton anywhere in the noisei keilim of shulchan oruch) he was boky in tanach and all it's meforshim, was an expert in klolei hadikduk, was a mumche in kidush hachoidesh and halchik zmanim, was a massive boky in chasidus.
if reb sholom would have been a little less of an onov and the misnagdim would have heard of him, they would have made up that he learnt by reb boruch ber...
bichlal, the fact that todays so called litvishe (i.e hungerines that learnt in non chasidishe yeshivos...)are so nispoel from the kalmenson brothers or from r' ezra shocat, just shows on there lack of understanding in gadlus hatoire. it reminds me of the fact that they can speak about rav eliyashiv as if he was on the same level as the noide beyhuda (reb shmuel aurbach said that about him...) and say about reb elye ber vachtfogel that he's the reb akive eiger of the dor... (they say rav birnbaum said that about him. the lack of critical thinking is terrible.
the only true geonim that the torah world has today are reb dov landau, reb chaim kanievsky, reb shauel alter and a handful of others. most other people called "gedolim" today are really just standard talmidei chachomim, and most of the rosh yeshivos in america (including reb elye ber) are low class talmidei chachomim...

yakov said...

Why it takes so long to get to the point - usually in order to present all pros and contras, kamuvan

Seforim Maven said...

Anon
well said and thanks
Re;Reb Shulem Marozov
a friend of mine(non chabadnik) who wrote seforim on Kabala, told me years ago, that he called Reb Shulem for some dilemmas that he had. He was shocked to hear Reb shulem tell him the following "this is a Hagoas Hagra on Safra Detznusa" and quoted him on the phone the loshon..
Ad Kam Hamaseh
This people will never get it, How is it possible that this people are not considered the Gedolim with all the jingle bells.
In BP there is a Jew that is the Tzadik Hadoir, What gives him this title? because he was in prison in Romania for yiddishkiet, at the same era there were many Jews In CH and Kfar chabad, that were also former prisoners for years and some for decades,and they also had yeshivas took care from orphans etc etc ... and they did not build no empires, not even for the sake of Bilti Lashen Levadoi......
A misnaged will never get it, not even a pielishe chosid of today....

pitputim said...

Shulim,
Let me respond. I don't know if the "David Berger" is the respected Professor, but I doubt it.

a) I have travelled the world. I am certainly aware that Lubavitch is bigger in Melbourne than other cities. I'm not an idiot. That being said, it is simply ridiculous for Matzav.com not to have highlighted the Yohr Tzeit because they didn't think the last Rebbe נ’’ע was not "big enough". I won't get drawn into comparisons but it's clear to anyone with an objective mind, that he was certainly "as well known" as R' Schneur Kotler! He was certainly a Gaon Olam, a genius, a Manhig, and a very important man. To not list him, is simply Olam HaSheker.
b) Again, the issue of Meshichism is one which I am very well aware of. Frankly, I can't stand it, if someone even just wears a Yarmulkeh with Yechi BUT that doesn't detract from the Gadlus HaTorah VeHaChassidus of the last Rebbe. Do you ignore R' Nachman because so many of his latter day Chassidim are bouncing on the streets day in day out? No, you don't. You don't have to agree with their derech, and it does nothing for me, except elicit a smile, but I wouldn't IGNORE R' Nachman's Yohr Tzeit because of that.
c) Who told YOU that the Dayan in Melbourne thinks that those who take Kos Shel Bracha etc are not Meshugoim. I have news for you. I talk to him regularly, and I am very aware that he is a Meshichist in the sense that he can't imagine anyone else being Moshiach (which I think is simply Hepech the Rambam Kipshuto) but he most certainly DOES think these people are Meshugoim.
d) The fact that there is a legal issue which prevents the non Meshichitsts (notice I didn't say anti) taking over 770 doesn't mean they support them! They aren't as powerful as you think.
e) My example of a Gaon around the corner was just that. I didn't have to look far to find one in Chabad. There are plenty of them, although per Capita, I would say there are quite a lot of neuvo Chassidim whose knowledge of Nigleh is poor. Their kids, though, are learning. Many of them were Ba'alei Tshuva.

pitputim said...

(continued to Shulim)
I'm no Talmid Chacham, but I think I know one when I see or hear one. There is a Lakewood Kollel here in Melbourne. To be honest, I've found their level of learning rather uninspiring. Even the Rosh HaKollel, with whom I learned for some 10 years on a Thursday night, used to ask (and I still think he does) most of his questions to R' Heineman. Nothing wrong with that, but you'd think that after nearly twenty years here, they would have created a world class independent Gaon. That's not a reason not to mention R' Schneur, but to pretend that Geonim grow in Lakewood and the like, more than in Lubavitch is simply untrue.

The discussion of Dayan Usher Weiss is interesting. I've spoken to him a few times, and listen to his shiurim. Anyone who doesn't think he's a Gaon and one of the Posekei Zemanenu, simply hasn't got a clue. Sorry, that's the way I see it. He's a Gaon Olam.

In short, there is simply NO excuse for Matzav except that they were engaged in SHEKER through their not so smart web page.

eliezer said...

A good place to start analyzing Lubavitch lomdus: http://haoros.com/

Aron the CEO said...

A good place to start analyzing Lakewood Lomdus Lakewoodscoop.com

shulem said...

Isaac from pitputim,
Thanks for your responses.
Although we disagree,I respect your ability to try and be honest with yourself (though i do believe that ahava mekalkeles es hashura when it comes to chabad).Additionally, you very proudly sign your real name, unlike myself and most Chareidy bloggers.
I will respond to your points soon at a more convenient time.

Just to your point about R'Usher Weiss: Anybody who has appreciation for a real, world class talmid chochom appreciates someone like him.His ability to explain difficult sugyos and make them clear for your average person is one ofhis strengths.He does this without being LONG WINDED like the Lubavitch style which puts people to sleep.The detractors here are not doing any objective evaluation, it's their inability to fargin to anyone who did not go thru the Lubavitch system.Evan R'Ezra Schachat a Lubavitcher talmid chochom of note does not pass muster because he never learned in lubavitcher yeshivas or kollelim.

David Berger said...

shulem
"(though i do believe that ahava mekalkeles es hashura when it comes to chabad)."

I guess your obvious hate to chabad has no effect on you.. you are immune of all the keloloim of chazal, and you are objective as can be

David Berger said...

Shulem
" Anybody who has appreciation for a real, world class talmid chochom appreciates someone like him"
Anybody that is not capable to learn a sugya on his own, appreciates Rabbis, Usher Wiess, Sryel Duvid schlezinger, Eizenberger,Moshe Zoberman and Rav silver...and Mesivta and Artscroll and Chavrussa.

David Berger said...

Shulem
anybody that cam no learn torah from the source will not appreciate the following
"He does this without being LONG WINDED like the Lubavitch style which puts people to sleep

David Berger said...

shulem
"I will respond to your points soon at a more convenient time."
very glad to see that we will see the great Scholar Shulem kicking around on our blog for awhile

dovy in j said...

haven't been following this thread and i won't go back and read the comments because it seems like most of them are from insecure people bashing other groups to boost their own sorry self-esteems. but if you're talking about recent accepted sefarim that came out of Lakewood you have to include Gevul Binyomin from Rav Caim Tzvi Hakohen Gorelik which is now the most widely accepted sefer in the world on Techumim both in lomdus and practical halacha. Also the Mishnas Rebbe Aharon sefer on Zeraim, which is a masterpiece.
there are a lot of other sefarim that have come out. unfortunately, i haven't been in kollel full-time for over ten years and don't have the time to go through most of them, but there was one on basar b'chalav-taruvos that was done very well. i think the mechaber's name is Steier or something like that.

shulem said...

"Anybody that is not capable to learn a sugya on his own, appreciates Rabbis, Usher Wiess, Sryel Duvid schlezinger, Eizenberger,Moshe Zoberman and Rav silver...and Mesivta and Artscroll and Chavrussa."

Can you explain what you mean?
Are you trying to say that only people who can't learn appreciate your list of rabbunim?

Sounds like you not a big maven

Seforim Maven said...

Dovy in Nj
" Also the Mishnas Rebbe Aharon sefer on Zeraim, which is a masterpiece. "
Does it have the famous teshuva on Heter Mechira?

you are out of kolel, and you learn zeroim...I am impressed, you are almost like Reb Menachem Zemba, a baal habois and a real talmid chochem

noch a maven said...

"you are out of kolel, and you learn zeroim...I am impressed, you are almost like Reb Menachem Zemba, a baal habois and a real talmid chochem"

Trying to be cynical?

Let me try:Ever heard of the "Chersoner Genizah" ?
Why do you say about the rebbes cloimershteh defense?
How mistaber is it?

Seforim Maven said...

Noch A Maven
"Let me try:Ever heard of the "Chersoner Genizah" ?
Why do you say about the rebbes cloimershteh defense?
How mistaber is it?"
The Lubavicher Rebbes defense is very weak, so where are we going from here?

yankel said...

Maybe some critique of Farbrengen wine belongs here. Is there a good slice of pizza to be bought in Kan Tzivah.

David Berger said...

just for the record. Klausenburgh, .
should stop taking credit for the great Reb Usher Wiess.,
Since he cuts his ties as a Talmid of the Divrie Yatziv, where he learned all his life. He claims that his Rebbes are Reb Shimon Shkop, and the Chazon Ish.
Eventough in his works he shows no resemblance of the style of this 2 Gedolim, for this we will wait for the explanation of the other Goan in house Reb Shulem