Thursday, June 27, 2013

"Lubavitcher Chasidim Providing (real) Shmurah for Satmarer Matzos"



















Reb Eizik Levy



















Reb Getzel's left peyoh and left side of hat here




The 2 Mashgichim


This week a few groups, ובראשם the Satmar Matzoh bakery in Kiryas Joel, went down to Arizona to cut wheat for matzohs. The delegation included - but was by no means limited to - the Satmar Rebbe, The KJ Rov; Reb Getzel Berkovitch, and Reb Eizik Levy, manager of the bakery. These two Lubavitcher Jews (pictured above) had been staying in the searing Arizona heat since a week before Shavuos camped out in a mobile home for 7 weeks, never leaving the place alone. They were watching for rain. Making sure that it did NOT rain. One of them was always there, not only watching for rain, but also patrolling the perimeter. Day and night, as they tell the Satmar Rebbe in the recording posted here. What happens if it does rain?? then all of it goes to the garbage.   What? you say? So how do they get wheat for Matzohs ever? 

An important point to mention is that if the wheat has matured and is אינו צריך לקרקע, then, as explained by the רשב"א, it is as if the rain fell on it "after" cutting - which would make it into a שאלה of חמץ. Wheat grown in the Eastern U.S., where it rains all year long, have the problem of sprouted wheat, so most shmura matzah production relies on bittul of at least a 180:1 ratio, and are sometimes forced to travel from field to field searching for wheat with an acceptable ratio. Many are machmir, especially the Rebbes who have many בחורים with lots of free time during בין הזמנים, get them to check each and every little grain to see if they are sprouted in order to have 100% clean wheat. In the alte heim they where afraid of rain so they cut the wheat for matzoh when it was a little greenish, a bit premature,  but that causes many headaches as it could grow mildew or fungus or sprout.  Sprout is chometz, so then you have to rely on Roiv, which is only one sprouted per 60 or 120 or 180 to be machmir. 

Enter Arizona [just as in Eretz Yisroel], where you could leave the wheat standing until well mature, because it almost NEVER rains after winter. The low humidity climate lets wheat grow with no sprouted wheat AT ALL and no need to sort for any defect. I don't wanna speak Loshon Horah, but the other Satmar (Zalonim) party - for purely political reasons - accuses 'falsely' that it rained in Arizona last year, they even made a false video. Now the KJ people have real frum עדות that were there for 7 weeks (a first for such a long period of time) and testify that NO rain fell from maturity until cutting; it cost them a fortune to provide an air-conditioned mobile home - from when the wheat was still green until yesterday when it was cut, and they gave eidus to the visiting Rabbonim, (as you could hear through the noise) the SR and Reb Getzel Berkowitz, who ask them to state that they were there day and night, shabbos and yom tov, and all Rabbonim heard them say it. But it cost a fortune just to be medakdek on one chumra.

 מעיקר הדין לא צריכים שמורה משעת קצירה אלא משעת לישה ואילך. מנהג אבותינו לאכול מצות פשוטים ורק לליל הסדר החמירו לשמירה משעת קצירה חסידים ואנשי מעשה. משעת טחינה ואילך איז הלכה. משעת קצירה איז נאר א חומרא, אבער צו האבען 24/7 שמירה אזוי ווי דא אין אריזאנע איז שוין א חסידות. זיי זענען דארט פון ווען עס איז נאך געוועהן גרין. און די מצות וועלן אי"ה זיין מהודרים בתכלית ההידור למדקדקים. דא אונטען קען מען הערן ווי די עדים רעדן צו די רבנים

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

Being paid for seven weeks just to make sure it doesn't rain?How do I get that job?

Duved Rozenberg said...

So the Zalis and Doroger Rebbe Abe Laufer are correct that you are not allowed to eat Arizona Matzohs, its Shmura Mishas Kefira

Yungerman said...

Hesh,

I am sufficiently impressed with your knowledge of nigleh! It is refreshing watching you write "in-learning". It makes me wish I was doing the same, and not in stuck of a computer do to work.

Yankel Chaimovitz said...

I assume that Reb aron hired this mashgichim to quiet down his nemesis that publicized last year some video showing rain in Arizona...
Noting will hellp with them, they are gong-ho to fight him. they will come up with a new ploy

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Duved

are you Chief of the thought Police?

Duved Rozenberg said...

Hirshel
My Zather Z"Land me are working overtime for the last 50 years to brainwash the mushy brains in our camps, with alot of successes, so think twice before you question my abilities

no name said...

http://s949.photobucket.com/user/aman51/media/odds%20n%20ends/IMG_4911_2.jpg.html

one mizrachi amongst the agidisten

Anonymous said...

There are wireless electronic rain gauges available that will report any rainfall. They can be set up to be accessed via internet or even to report to a smartphone. And they never sleep or daven so they may even be more reliable than two guys in a mobile home.

yankel said...

Virtually not one fact you quote is true. Maybe the SR believes it, but I know it not to be true.
1. The wheat on the east coast is cut before it is fully ripe. The Rabbonim used to refuse it if it was too ripe or too unripe - even after it was cut by the combine.
2. They rarely use a bittul of 180:1, they usually have about 600:1.
3. Last year's video was not false. The representative of the local agriculture department is clearly visible and his business card comes up on the video. Speak to him and you will see that they are in Yuma, Arizona in the summer and it was raining.
4. The video was a couple of miles from the field where they cut, but the basic idea that there are rain sprinkles after the wheat is ripe is true.
5. The Satmar (KJ) bakery said last year too that there were people there the whole time, but when pressed they could not produce these mashgichim. Witnesses who went to look for their alleged mashgichim could not find them.
6. If these people were truly shluchim, how could they be there the whole time? When did they do shlichus?
7. How did they occupy their time 'rain-watching'?
8. The politics started the other way. The Mateh Aharon tried to create an image of being better than the old days. He created issues with the wheat and tried various new ways of getting wheat. First, he cut it when it was greem. They proved from the poskim that that is wrong. Then he went to Arizona, believing in the underground irrigation. That was disproven he started with drip-irrigation. That didn't work, so he just takes regular Arizona wheat. The new trick is just to put down anyone who disagrees. (They claim that in one of the pictures of the misnaged who went there, there is a lady photographer in the reflection in the background. You can imagine what names the peace-loving aronim had for him)
9. Crown Heights Beis Din still refuse to approve the use of Arizona Wheat for Matzos in their bakery.
Stick to the old ways until a credible opinion comes up. Politics is lies wherever it comes from.

Mordechai Tzion said...

Check out this article in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/us/brooklyn-matzo-prebaked-in-an-arizona-field.html?pagewanted=all

yom tov in der vochen said...

Shabos this was front page news with pic on the New York Times

Duved Rosenberg said...

Yankel
"3. Last year's video was not false. The representative of the local agriculture department is clearly visible and his business card comes up on the video. Speak to him and you will see that they are in Yuma, Arizona in the summer and it was raining."
Why should the visitors on this blog, trust a obsessive Aroni Basher, rather then the Aroni side.
You think that business cards can not be inserted on to a clip in our day and age.
Besides this Arizona wheat program did not start by your arch enemy, it started by other Dayanim, who eat and breathe Hilchas Pesach all their lives, Your archenemy shared the wagon a little later in the game

yankel said...

Duveed - Why do you call me an Aaroni basher. I am an equal opportunity offender. I have both satmars in boidem. When they do things for politics, they are equally disgusting.
The history is that there were some people who, for many years, have been taking green wheat or Israeli wheat. The Talmidei chachomim of the previous generation, including R' Moshe Neischloss, the Shoproner Rov, Reb Yonasan Shteif, Reb Moishe Feinstein did not accept this chumra. Some even said that the green wheat is worse than the ripe wheat with bittul.
The older Hungarian brother decided to be 'machnif' those people, thereby bashing the younger Hungarian brother, after the younger one was more successful in hiring lawyers to declare him the true successor of the Yismach Moshe.
Maybe you can post a link to my 'obsessive aaroni bashing'. I am curious to know where you would even make such a mistake from.
Or do you think that anyone who does not think Arizona wheat is better must be an Aaroni basher.
You can insert any business card you want. But try and call that person and see what he says.

Duved Rozenberg said...

Yankel
" The politics started the other way. The Mateh Aharon tried to create an image of being better than the old days. He created issues with the wheat and tried various new ways of getting wheat"

all your life you know that torah and yiddishkiet are politics,so it is impossible that some Dayanim should come up with some new chisdush in Hidur Mitzva.
When your saint the holy baal Yeyoel Moshe(according to the ads in the Hamoar of Cong.Yetev Lev) tried to introduce to the market Wheat of Arizona in the years of 1966 and 1967, was it also politics to show for Tzelemer matzo bakery, that we are holier then you? or it was pure hidur mitzvah?

Duveed Rozenberg said...

Yankel
" But try and call that person and see what he says."
Whom should I call? the guy that's doing the dirty work for the holy Doroger Ruv?
Again it did not start out with the Aroni Rebbe, it started out by other people that knew the Shoproner, Neushloss, and Reb Yonasan too. So it has noting to do with hilchas Nachlos, its a pure Hilchas pesach subject.

Duved Rozenberg said...

Yankel
"I have both satmars in boidem. When they do things for politics, "
as the great Rav AJ of Brisk termed a guy like you a True Zali

T.P.V said...

http://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2013/06/ufaratzta-yuma-chabad-unite-with-satmar.html

Duved Rozenberg said...

yankel
". Crown Heights Beis Din still refuse to approve the use of Arizona Wheat for Matzos in their bakery.
Stick to the old ways until a credible opinion comes up"
this is no derech in horoha, for this I don't need a bies din

Duved Rozenberg said...

Yankel
"The history is that there were some people who, for many years, have been taking green wheat or Israeli wheat. The Talmidei chachomim of the previous generation, including R' Moshe Neischloss, the Shoproner Rov, Reb Yonasan Shteif, Reb Moishe Feinstein did not accept this chumra"
I don't know where you get this load of info of all this gedolim,
But according to your logic, even in zman hamikdosh, they were not doing the Mitzva correct, till we arrived to Brooklyn, since the gedolim claim that Israeli wheat are also no good. Unless the nature changed(Nishtani Hativiyem) after the Zionist occupation.

Anonymous said...

plz can someone enlighten this issue?
in pupa tzelem bakery, they offer arizona wheat for $1-2 more a pound.r they doing it to be yotzei, or is there something to it that makes it better and worth the hassle of shipping it from arizona?

also, what CH or anyone else does is irrelevant. If it's better wheat, and accessible today in 2013, why not get it? just bec it wasn't done 50 yrs ago doesn't negate it. logistics & technology makes things easier today so we take advantage to use them for hiddur mitzvah. just like cholov akum had a heter when cholov yisroel milk was hard to come by outside NY, the same can apply to shmurah wheat.

Anonymous said...

Why are they using soft white wheat which did not exist in 1966-67.It did not exist in sighet or other places. It only started in the 1980's. Soft white wheat in any other place besides Arizona sprouts faster then red wheat. In a place where it rains the soft wehite wheat crop can be destroyed by sprouting

yankel said...

Which gedolim saud israeli wheat is no good? They did not accept the chumra and they said green wheat isno good. That is all.
The person whose business card is on the video is a goy who is the liasion between the Satmarers and the wheat farmers.
The CH beis din today will not accept the wheat from Arizona, not 50 years ago.
What was the story with my Rebbe the Brisker Rosh Yeshiva?
I have the sefer Ketzir chittin, written by those who don't like the old system of getting wheat. They have some factual mistakes, but mostly it is a Hungarian sefer full of mareh mekomos and short on sense. I am not discussing this from ignorance. I went through the issue without negius. I am not a satmarer or a hungarian or even chassidish. I don't have a noam elimelech in my house, neither am I careful to eat kneidlach on Achron shel pesach. In fact, I eat them at the seder.
I don't hate politics per se. I try and spend my life learning and when halocho is subject to an agenda, i see it as a personal insult. Learning is more than politics. The issue as to who is the true mamshich darkoi of a Rebbe of 150+ years ago may be decided by politics, lawyers, petch and pashkevillin. I have no problem with that.

Yair Banet said...

Yankel
why are you quoting some baba miesois from Gedolim as a big talmid chochem when you don't even know that this is basic poskim printed in their seforim,
The Orech Hashulchan OC 467-10 writes a suggestion to cut it prematurely, but not TOO GREEN, and so writes the Kitzur shulchan Orech,Divrie Geonim,
Get your facts together before you dabble on a subject.
I am no Aroni/Zaloni/Satmarer/Bnie Yoel/Moshe Ber Beck. But this is a simple issue, that it should never off be in a discussion, and BTW, the Rebbe of the Aronim, is a nice talmid chochem, maybe some of his pilpulim are off, but all his families pilpulim were on that track.

Fact checker said...

Yankel
"The person whose business card is on the video is a goy who is the liasion between the Satmarers and the wheat farmers"
Which Satmar is he a Liason for? the one with the camp in Napanoch? or the one with the armory?

yonah said...

Banet,fact checker and other names,
Please keep to one name

Anonymous said...

There are a few issues.

1) sprouted wheat is a 'siman' and clear sign of chametz.

2) Yankel cites that they take 600:1, that might be true - I've been told its not so. But even if it is so, it is still בעין and then you are relying on ביטול and according to a minority view of poskim you still have the issue of חוזר וניעור and if we figure that it is מין באינו מינו and according to 'some' poskim not לח בלח then it is not as mehudar as having ZERO sprouted. Even though relying on bitul has been established minhag for all generations.

3) The very frum sort their grain for that very reason: in order to have 100% pure without relying on ביטול. For those who sort their own wheat, Arizona has no advantage!.

For mass production it is impossible to harvest wheat while still a bit greenish and then spread it out to dry and ripen. So it is harvested according to moisture grades (14?) In any case, many sprouted grains are found and it is very difficult to find a field and achieve a high ratio of ביטול that is why many bakeries have to run from one field to the next; running in the span of a few short weeks from one state to the next to find a proper field with good initial results.

4) It is for this reason Reb Aaron was convinced that Arizona solves this particular problem. The wheat can be harvested late long after it is fully ripened and because of no rain there are zero grains sprouted even after checking 1000s of grains. So no bitul is necessary and the average consumer who buys those matzos can have matzo with the same standard as Skeverer Rebbe has with his 100s of bochirim painstakingly sorting his grains.

5) The issue/s the Zali party raised (they had to, b/c they can't have all the Briker/Lakewood guys finding out that Arizona is one notch better) So they (smartly) raised phantom issues. One of them was that it rained 'after' the wheat was mature and according to (some interpretations of the) Rashbo: mature wheat in the stalks are as if cut already and no water should reach the grain and if it does it is chametz!

6) It is for that reason 2 Lubavitch guys were hired to be there day and night from when the field was still green up to harvesting day, to be able to witness that no rain fell (as you see on the clip on Vosizneis) since it was green. These guys are not shluchim at all, it was a simple job for them and they were paid a small fortune for the efforts.

In truth, no witnesses were needed the מהרש"ג סימן נ"ו states that in climate where rain rarely ) כמו כמצרים או בבל בימי חז"ל או כארץ ישראל) falls we can assume halachically that no rain fell. He compares it to מיעוט המצוי and anybody who is machmir אינו אלא מן התמיהין just as we don't check יח טריפות. So these witnesses served a extra הידור that wasn't really called for. But since the other party keeps on raising phantom issues they decided to be extra mehader.

that's the story as I know it.

YR

yonah said...

Why do you need bittul of more than 1 out of 60?Before pesach it's not ossur bemashehu
General question, don't have any side here?

satmar said...

The Truth About Arizona Wheat For Matzos "RAIN"

watch video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptsWq6VbgpM

No Aroni said...

YR
"One of them was that it rained 'after' the wheat was mature and according to (some interpretations of the) Rashbo: mature wheat in the stalks are as if cut already and no water should reach the grain and if it does it is chametz!"
is the Rashbo not quoted in shulchan orech?

No Aroni said...

YR
" (they had to, b/c they can't have all the Briker/Lakewood guys finding out that Arizona is one notch better)"
Is Rav Braude a talmid of Reb Berel?

No Aroni said...

YR
"These guys are not shluchim at all, it was a simple job for them and they were paid a small fortune for the efforts"
are you the Aroni CPA? you know exactly how much they paid for this Mashgichim

No Aroni said...

Satmer
"The Truth About Arizona Wheat For Matzos "RAIN" "
the word Truth, is not in the Satmar dictionary

Anonymous said...

YR,
bottom line will be if any of the litvish (brisker) customers will go to aroinem to bake matzohs

and if they have so much matzohs before paisach that they give away for $10 a pound

its much cheaper to hire someone Rappaport to do PR then to see that the brodway bakery does not have a brakel matzoh left and Arizona there are tons left

So lets wait and see if it paid

chaim

Mr. Manishecevitz said...

Chaim
You live in La La land, this Arizona Matzohs is going on for years, and they are running out of it a week or two before Yom tov
on the hand the anti Arizona campaign is becoming a laughing stock, by every non koolaid aroni hater.

Fact Checker said...

Yona
Why do you need bittul of more than 1 out of 60?Before pesach it's not ossur bemashehu
General question, don't have any side here"

the shulchan orech writes in OC 252 that it needs 60, but there are other achronim including brisker ruv, that for Mitzvas Ushmartem, even 60 is no good

yonah said...

Fact checker,
Now that you say that "ushmartem ess hamatzos" means that bittul does not work, why would bittul of 180 or whatever other numbers that were brought here work?
I seem to recall that r'shlomah kluger ruled that if matzos got mixed up with chometz matzos or something like that they cannot be used for matzos mitzvah bringing proof from a ritva with sofek tumah?
Whatever the case, isn't only for matzos leil haseder?

Fact checker said...

yonah
if you see a problem then you need 60, it basically lost the chazuka.this is a Rema. According Halacha you can buy flour from the street(obviously only Unbleached) and make matzohs,but soon a problem was detected then the problem starts.
Re, Ushemartem, I saw it quoted in the name Oir Yisroel of some Rav in Praga Poland, that offers that sevora.
The Orech Hashulchan is explaining it very clear, as usual, It pays not to be lazy and look it up.

yonah said...

so, is their any bittul in 180 or more?
never heard of it, besides for teruma and something else that is 1/100?