Sunday, May 15, 2011

Is what we have today "Chassidus" as the Heiliker Baal Shem Tov wanted it?


I can be "open" and "honest" about it, just as I can about other subjects. We look at ourselves and ask: Am I what the revolution was all about? Did the Baal Shem Tov fight for people like me to be able to have a good time in the name of "Chassidus?" We know what the Chassidim HoRishonim were like, how they acted and what they accomplished, and we look at ourselves - no, not ourselves, but even at the "great" ones of today, and we can easily come to the conclusion that the glory days of Chassidus are over, and that we're a mere skeleton of what the movement once was. For some reason the Satmarer "Chassidim" are the ones who carry this flag, along with many others. Flags that is. many other flags. After Zionism this may be their number 2 cause de celebre. Some say - and they may be chronic cynics - that these 2 causes are very closely related. That the REASON they disregard all other Rebbes is BECAUSE of the fact that most others didn't wrap themselves in the flag of Kano'us. I'm not sure why Chassidus has to take the hit, even though I sort of understand it. Or maybe kano'us could've taken a back seat to Chassidus, just like all others saw and understood it? The penultimate piece, the one that features the words of the Arugas HaBosem, is a real tough one to figure out or to come to terms with. After all, the AH had just joined the ranks of the Chassidim, which would lead us to believe that he had thought long and hard about it, had seen all the pros and cons, and STILL decided that this was the way that he wished to conduct himself in. He had come from a Misnagdic - or non-Chassidic family. To believe Rabbi Menashe Fulop, author of the שמנה של תורה, you'd have to think that he was of a simple mind, and judging from his seforim, that simply holds no water.



Reb Mottel Zilber, however, will have none of that talk. There is no Yeridas haDoros, he says. It cannot be. RMZ is himself not a Rebbe, and the irony is that this talk too place while giving a Mesilas Yeshorim shiur... Ans the proof that he brings is also from the Mesilas Yeshorim, which only increases the irony. On the other hand, maybe Reb Mottel doesn't disagree with the SR after all. Maybe the SR himself would agree that until the Rizhiner Kinder there was no yeridas haDeyres after all, and that it all started soon after that, when the Eyniklach assumed their leadership positions. IIRC that's when the real machlokes blew up between Sanz and Sadiger, although it started with the children as well. But who knows? I wouldn't be surprised if RMZ, despite his strong words here, if "confronted" with the words of the SR, if he'd agree with the SR as well! בבחינת "you're right too!" Not because I'm trying to put him down, chas vesholom, only because of the SR's stature amongst frum Jews today. So we may never know the answer to this timeless question.

135 comments:

Anonymous said...

the Arigas Haboisem joined the SHireyim of the Talmidei HaBasht and he investigated and he said that it is only Shireyim of a forgotten world

Anonymous said...

I assume that your joining lubavitch did not elevate your families level of frumkeit in comparison if you would have stayed the same as your siblings (I am not talking about comradeship)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

don't ass u me anything, my friend...

Anonymous said...

If your joining a chasidus would have elevated your level of frumkiet you would have proudly pointed it out that chsidim in comparison to non chasidim are frummer, and you would have given yourself as a living example,
n u my friend without srn me anything i know that chasidus is a forgotten entity without any one to claim its copyright

Anonymous said...

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=14450&alias=chassidim-protest-on-kingston-ave

in their own words, read the comments until the end to see matzav hachasidus in the rebbes shchuna.

Anonymous said...

grainom, share your wisdom with us! please

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Anon 9:54;

Misnagdim are frum. I was never from that kind of family. Besides, this blog is NOT about me.

Gimpel said...

c'mon. You know better than that. The AH discovered something in Belz that spoke to him. However, he refused to accept that this is the chassidus that was introduced by the Bsht and fought over amongst the subsequent gedolim.
BTW, today was the Ropshitzer's yohrtzeit. He is purported to having said to the effect that according to the level of importance of an object is the stench when it loses its importance. A human being decomposes more than an animal which is more than a plant. According to the stink of chassidus today, it must have once been a great thing!!
Enjoy.

Anonymous said...

Gimpel
"The AH discovered something in Belz that spoke to him"
The AH dicovered chasidus by the yetev lev, from Siget he left to Shinever ruv and to Reb Yehoshoa of Belz.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"and he said that it is only Shireyim of a forgotten world"
He said, he never said anything, it is Fulops lie,
Look in his seforim and listen to what his family has to say about his gevaldiger chasidic fire, and stop reading this phatalogical liar.

Anonymous said...

Gimpel
"However, he refused to accept that this is the chassidus that was introduced by the Bsht and fought over amongst the subsequent gedolim."
where is there a other hint of criticising chasidim and chasidus, outside of Fulop?

Anonymous said...

is this an attempt to explain, how the belief that the Rebbe was the "man of the millenium' is compatibel with Judaism?

yeshivaforum said...

I agree with the shmena shel torah and Gimpel. And the Ropshitzer would've had a field day with the state of chassidus today.

Anonymous said...

The SR said the first time he heard that the derech Hchasidus is forgotten was from the AH, I heard that the Kapuster z"l a descendent from the tanya also (writes) said it, BTW the AH was SR sandik! and the AH son the zelimer ruv z"l said once my father talked to SR in one day more than he talked with me in his entire life.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

The Baal Shem thought that people were too obsessed with Dikkduk Hamitzvos, and weren’t paying enough attention to the heart and soul in it. So he spawned a new movment. Whose decedents are now obsessed not with Mitzvahs but what kind of hat, and eier mit tzibel etc!!!!

Anonymous said...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

oh what an inside you have in chasidus

Anonymous said...

The litvishu lost their way entirely (after WWII) so they became more chasidush.. when chasidus stoped! now we have lost frum chasidum and litvaks the blind following or leading the blind.. in a merry-go-round! discussing if the great SR z"l was right or wrong..so will all agree its moshiach time! right ?

Anonymous said...

I just hope you have this entire blog and all comments backed up securely.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why do you hope that?

brooklyn ave said...

Mindless drivel.As usual.What a crock this Tzig is.

The Bray of Fundie said...

This whole controversy reminds me of a clever T-Shirt I once saw. The front bore the slogan:

God is Dead!
-Nietzsche

The back read:
Nietzsche is dead
-God.

No doubt the SR ZY"A has proven to be correct. Question is: how much did the movement (I suppose it would be a misnomer to call it a Chasidus) he wrought contribute to the correctness of his pronouncement?

I often wonder; In which year and from what kraize will a Gaonisha firebrand publish a Sefer containing the inflammatory phrase:
נשתכח תורת הבעל "ויואל משה"ה???

The Bray of Fundie said...

Menagdim have something similar. I heard of a Mashgiach who said back in the 70s "We don't have a Mussar Seder in this Yeshiva. We have 15 minures of silence in memory of Rav Yisarel Salanter".

Men of good conscience can agree to disagree on whether or not the Chasidic Revolution is still alive. But the Mussar Revolution is most definitely dead and buried deep deep underground.

Anonymous said...

Yeshivah Forum
"And the Ropshitzer would've had a field day with the state of chassidus today."
hypothetically if it is true that Ropshitzer wanted to close shop on Chasidus(which is probably not true, since his sefer Zera Kodesh is one of the pillars of chasiddus and his family continued his chasidic ways).Then I think he wouldn't be disappointed today, since the majority of chasidim have yeshivahs and kolelim where they produce torah on the same scale as misnagdim and much more then in the Alter Hiem, plus most rebbes today are official Balie Nigleh.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The SR said the first time he heard that the derech Hchasidus is forgotten was from the AH"
it is no place written that the SR said that, it is a Fulop fabrication

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
"Whose decedents are now obsessed not with Mitzvahs but what kind of hat, and eier mit tzibel etc!!!!"
Before you brush a big part of Klal Yisroel or maybe the biggest part, with the wide brush, think for a minute,
Are Chasidin not makpid on mitzvahs, as Shabos, Matzohs, Tzedoka ,Tefilin, Tzitzes etc....

Anonymous said...

The Bray of Fundie said... (whatever)

I think you should go back reading some more Nietzsche..than will consider your opinion on casidus...

Anonymous said...

"since his sefer Zera Kodesh is one of the pillars of chasiddus "

the Ropshitzer z"l forbided to print his "toras" (I guess for a good reason) so writes the sanzer ruv z"l, his famous talmid!

Anonymous said...

If you read only the famous will named Hachone Deraba,of Reb Moshe Greenwald of Chust,you will conclude that Fulop is a foolish liar even on lies that are Milsu Avidu Legliye, that Chazal claim, people refrain from saying.

Three or four times in his will, he writes and begs hi childern that the should constantly learn chasidic seforim, Beyiun, in a in depth manner, not just murmurings.
He asks from his children that they have to be affiliated and travel at least once a year to a chasidic court oriented with a Rebbe.
Where exactly is the Nishtakcho toras haBesht?

Anonymous said...

"נשתכח תורת הבעל "ויואל משה"ה???"

That may or may not.. happen when the state of israel will seize to exist, paradoxily that’s what keeps it the v’yoel moshe alive!

The Bray of Fundie said...

1:15

I read T-Shirts not Nietsche. Apparently you read nothing but comic books

Anonymous said...

Anon
"(I guess for a good reason) so writes the sanzer ruv z"l, his famous talmid!"
so at the end of the day why did the Sanzer push for printing the Zera Kodesh?
Muz men zogen that the Sanzer and his Rebbe the Ropshitzers thought process , were total different then the reasons you would wish to squeeze in.

Anonymous said...

"Where exactly is the Nishtakcho toras haBesht?"

...the AH asked the to learn sifrei chasidus.. and did the SR say anywhere not c"v to learn chasisdish seforim? he did and demanded it from his chasisidum to! (even tanya) we all learn rashis cuchmah and chovas halvuvos does that makes us tzadigim.. well hopefully it will one day..

Anonymous said...

"so at the end of the day why did the Sanzer push for printing the Zera Kodesh?"

and why did the reshonim push to 'print' toras sh'pal peh! ?

Anonymous said...

"it is a Fulop fabrication"
and my choice is either yours or his ?

Anonymous said...

where can I get a copy of Mesilas Yesharim shiurim from R Zilber?

leo said...

I wish the Bris Menucha quote would have a precise source.

Anonymous said...

anon
"and why did the reshonim push to 'print' toras sh'pal peh!"
it is no mitzvah to publicize that you are a Am Heroetz.
the heter for writing torah shebal peh was Rebini Hakodesh(not from 500 Bedford)

there was no printing in the Rishonim era, it only started in Europe 560 years ago.

Anonymous said...

Leo
it is in some perush on the bris menucha.

Anonymous said...

"where can I get a copy of Mesilas Yesharim shiurim from R Zilber?"
they are printing every year a collection of his weekday shiurim and it is available in all book stores

Anonymous said...

"it is no mitzvah to publicize that you are a Am Heroetz"
listen up talmid chucim, there may not be any printing untill 560 years ago but the heter to 'write' was already before that? and how does 500 bedford aplly to this conversation other than to show your rishos! u will be long gone! but not one ord of RABEBNI HAKODESH RJT z"l toras emes will be lost ever.

leo said...

Anon 5:03, which? quoting this from bris menucha sounds anachronistic

Anonymous said...

Anon
with a Am Heuretz like you, all has to be specified in details. I dont see where the Rishos comes in to the discussion, You should of shut up and thank me for teaching you someting,
Is this your hakoras hatov?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"the AH son the zelimer ruv z"l said once my father talked to SR in one day more than he talked with me in his entire life."

this is the mother of lies,
the only thing that was famous, that the AH told him to learn Mishnayous for him after his petira.

Anonymous said...

Leo
whichever way, I need to see that perush too.

Seen Fire and Rain said...

With all due respect much of the conversation on this post and others is idiotic. People are born into a family of a certain chug -get indoctrinated -not educated-in that chug's propaganda-school system and then like parrots defend their Rebbes and shites. It's meaningless because there's no free will-just regurgitating the old knee-jerk reactions to criticism. At 18 every bochur should spend a year travelling and deciding which chug he wants to join. Then commenting and opinions would have some meaning. Now it's just"my daddy is bigger than yours."It's childish and foolish. People are "tzurikgeshtanen" in this world cause they're never allowed to think for themselves.

yeshivaforum said...

Anonymous 12:15-

Granted, the Ropshitzer would prob have been happy to see toras nigleh being learned in chasidishe yeshivos today.

But he had a problem with the Rebbeshih shtick back in his days (R' elimelech's era). So I can only wonder what he would say about it today.

belz angel said...

http://www.chabad.info/php/bigpic.php?lang=en&imageid=390633&mode=undefined

Anonymous said...

what an awesome picture linked ablove, i cant believe you missed it!!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

nobody missed anything

I clicked on it before letting it through

Anonymous said...

"RMZ is himself not a Rebbe..."
I personally am no chussid of RMZ, nor of Yudkowsky, and for that matter I've no truck with any specific contemporary chassidic corporations.
Just as an observer of the goings-on in and around Ultra-orthodoxy, I'm curious as how one would answer the question 'mihu Rebbe?'
True, RMZ is not of a biological-dynastic descendant; neither was Reb Arele Roth, but the latter definitely was a rebbe even before his son and son-in-law continued his legacy. So why not RMZ? RMZ's son Shmuel Yudl is already being groomed... And of course we know the witty rejoinder of the Ba'al Hatanye to the Rebbe Rebb Burikl'l Medzibizher, vd"l.

Anonymous said...

I think the one closest to what the Baal Shem Tov wanted is Rav Moshe Weinberger from Woodmere. All of this sectarianism and isolation is far from what Chassidus was supposed to be.

Yossel Gutnick said...

*** And of course we know the witty rejoinder of the Ba'al Hatanye to the Rebbe Rebb Burikl'l Medzibizher, vd"l. ***

Nope. What was it?

Rehov slonim 11 said...

The difference between r arele and RMZ is RA IS Yesh mayan and rmz is usurping a title not his...

Anonymous said...

Seen Fire
"With all due respect much of the conversation on this post and others is idiotic"
so arrogant

seen fire and rain said...

If I seem arrogant then I'm sorry. My point is simply why does every son have to continue in the ways of his father as far as membership in a particular Hassidic movement. Can't a bochur at some point decide whether he wants to be a Belzer,Bobover,Lubavitcher,or just a plain yeshivishe guy?Maybe after due diligence he'll find the Rebbe of another chug more to his liking and closer to the shoresh of his neshomoh than the one of the chug his family belongs to.The way it is now it's all a social thing not a ruchniyisdike matter.If the Baal Shem followed this indoctrination method he'd never have founded the Hassidic movement.He'd have remained an eilemsher yid.Actually it's interesting that the AH went searching for a new way in avodas hashem. Maybe some of the new mashpiim have such mevakshim but by and large the vast majority of Hassidim are taught not to "make waves,"and to defend the territory of the "kingdom,"in an ignorant,conditioned-response manner.

Anonymous said...

we have the kopuster saying that the derech habeshet was for 150 years

Does anybody know what that means

i just wonder where he got it from

schneur said...

Magen Avos wrote about the conclusion of chassidus only as melitzah in a "hesped" for his father Reb leib in saying that the end of the greise kenners of dach has arrived.
Chassidus ended in 1992 and concluded in 1994. He was the last real rebbe.
Most of the chassidim in the US are confusing the derech of the Chasam Sofer with the Derech haBesht.
The CS was not a Chasid and the Besht did not believe in obscurantism for the sake of itself. Hisbadlus was a shitah of the KS and Maharam Schuck and Rabbiner SR Hirsch not of Slonimer, Nezchiser or Kotzker rebbes. We see the more authentic chassidic groups like Stolin Karlin Ruzhin, Chabad Breslov,Slonim hardly being kanoim, although some have been influenced by their Jerusalem ambience.
The only major group of Tchernobel about is composed of Hungarian jews and led by Rebbes who are more Belz than Tchernobel.Men like the 4 talner in the US the Trisker in London, or the old Chernobler in Bp were hardly kanoim.
Finally Solomon Schechter of Genizah and JTS fame I believe once said that the begining of zaddikism was the end of Chasidism. How true and its remarkable to see a chssidus called Teyte Chasidim grew so much in the last 20 years not in the delivery wards of hospitals but by people actually seeing the truth of their derech. Breslov is loaded with top flight spiritual people and teachers. oN the other hand we see more Zaddikim than ever and less and less ruchnius in the same groups with so many so called zaddikim.
Rabbi Leibowitz of Woodridge has written about the contemporary confusion of the derech of the CS with the derech of the Besht.
I do not know what chassidus is ,(NO IDEA) but I know what it is not namely - hisbadlus, chadosh assur min hatorah fananatical anti Zionism , stress on nonsense like white or black zoken, headbands on either side of the hat vechuli, mindless opposition to legitimate secular knowledge like math basic science, going to work in a skilled profession, etc etc.
People in Brooklyn are living a very legit derech in their Judaism but its not Beshtian Chasiduth.

Anonymous said...

Monday, May 16, 2011 5:24:00 PM
Monday, May 16, 2011 7:38:00 PM
"Is this your hakoras hatov?"

'ein shulem umar hashem l'erushim'
for you to invoke your 'rishos':
"Rebini Hakodesh(not from 500 Bedford)" has no meaning other than your blind rishos which will die when u will! and i have no hakoros hatov for a rushi ever.

shouly said...

כאסידעס
That's the REAL name for Chabad of today

Anonymous said...

A reason many Mvakshim went to Chabad was the Choshuve Chsidim Ovdim.
This type of Yid is almost extinct. Hirshl does treat us to a steady stream of nostagic imagery but that's Lubavitch of yesteryear.
What happened? The Yeshiva of the Rashab which
had its tradition going back to
the BHT's organizing the Yungeliet to
shtayg in all inyonim Tora(niglo and chsidus)& avoda.
This program was for a Talmid (later a Tomim) to be mashlim himself over a period of years.
It made Chabad a breeding ground for giants. This also created an "establishment" of Chashuvim
It was a society that fraternized amongst themselves were meshadech and
"Monned" from each other Vaksn in Ruchniyus
The Kotsker Chasidim considered going to the Tzemach Tzedek after the Kotzker's
Histalkus.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe came to his post in 1950 with a different backround and agenda
He was never part of this "scene".He was not a product of this Fabrik. Never saw the Rshb.
He goal would be to bring Jews back to Yiddishket
thereby bringing Moshiach by USING
the holy apparatus built by his predecessors.
He was not out to REBUILD protect preserve and transplant
the old as other Manhigim. Didn't see the need to protect something he was never part of. He was into something new something HIS OWN.
That's why every promising baal Kishron etc is slaughtered on the altar of Kiruv and Shlichus.
Do you think the Ovdim of Liyozhne would dream of sending Bochurim into the streets of
NYC in the Summer ? That's why the Groyse Chsidim are no more. This is
a demonstrable Nishtakcho very painful to those of us who Shtam from Chabad CHasidim Rabbonim Talmidei Chachomim ad Lymei Adh"z.
Ironically it can be said that the biggest Meshakeyach of DERECH VCHAYEY Chsidus Chabad was none other than its
Last Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

wow shocking if its true.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"he Yeshiva of the Rashab which
had its tradition going back to
the BHT's organizing the Yungeliet to
shtayg in all inyonim Tora(niglo and chsidus)& avoda."

Mr, know it all, the Chabad concept yeshiva was revolutionary in chabad, the curriculum of Tomchie temimim was criticized by the Reshans cousins the other Chabad Rebbes, So it is no continuation of the holy Rav.
Get your facts straight before you blow you know it all horn.

Anonymous said...

Btw Hirshl
Your seeing some irony
that RMZ's comments were made
during a Mesilas Yeshorim Shiur is surprising.
The MY was a Sefer Ysod to the Gedolei Talmidei HaBasht"v.
Ask any Vizhnitzer about the Imrei Chaim's
Dveykus in it. I believe it was with his TalsTfiln.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"He was never part of this "scene".He was not a product of this Fabrik. Never saw the Rshb."
Does being a chosid of his FIL the Rayatz help to be part of the Fabrik, or only the Reshab is good, because he was anti zionist?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"He was never part of this "scene".He was not a product of this Fabrik. Never saw the Rshb."
is being a boy in the chasidic town of Nevel and a son and a fiery admirer of his holy father the profound chabad chosid and baal mekubal Reb levi Yitzchok, good enough to be of the Fabrik?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"He goal would be to bring Jews back to Yiddishket
thereby bringing Moshiach by USING
the holy apparatus built by his predecessors.
He was not out to REBUILD protect preserve and transplant
the old as other Manhigim"
Its ironic that the person that got involved Rebieni Hakodesh baal sefer hakodeh Likutie Sichos in the avodas hakodeh of Vehieshiv Liev Ovas al bonim Leovini shebashomaim was no other the Ben Yochid of the Reshab, the famous(in 11211) anti zionist.
Was the Ben Yochid from the Fabrik?
Do you think the Reshab would leave a will to say Mamorim for someone out of the fabrik.

Anonymous said...

Anon 403
I will not debate you. This history.
If you want to justify the LR -fine!
He felt what he did was right
And I wasn't Rebbe. He was
But that was not the point.
He did what he did. End of story.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Do you think the Ovdim of Liyozhne would dream of sending Bochurim into the streets of
NYC in the Summer ? That's why the Groyse Chsidim are no more"

Do you think that the Talmidie Chasam Sofer or the Chasidim of the Sanzer Ruv that are the official rebbes of the Baal hashita of Nishtakcho, would send their Bochurim to protest in the Ausgelasener streets on NYC,or would take out ads in the Tomene goyishe newspapers or the tomene Kilei, Radio to spread some Sinaas Yisroel?
I guess the Baal Hanishtakcho, was not of the Pressburger or Sanzer Fabrik, since he was never in Sanz or Pressburgh .

Anonymous said...

Anon
"That's why every promising baal Kishron etc is slaughtered on the altar of Kiruv and Shlichus.'
is Reb Motel Ashkenazi,Reb Ezra Shochet,Rav Kalmenson of New Haven Rav Goldberg of Migdel Heamek,Rav Kalmanson of France, Rav Shapira of Miami,Rav Havlin of Kiryat Gat, Rav Kramer of Montreal, Rav Gerlitzky of Oholie torah? Slaughtered on Shalichus? or they are of the best that Klal Yisroel can offer?
Or Reb Chaim sholem, Reb Itche Ofen, Reb Mielech Tzvibel, Reb Zalmen Gopin,Reb Nachmen Shapira Reb Liebel Altien, Reb Pinye Korf slaughtered on shlichus ? or they are of the best that Chasidus ever offered?
they are all masie yodev of Rebini Hakodesh baal Likutie Sichos Zy"a

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The Kotsker Chasidim considered going to the Tzemach Tzedek after the Kotzker's
Histalkus."
isn't it strange that in our era after the Histalkus of Rebinie haKodesh baal Likutie Sichos ZY"A, we see big crowds of Gerer Chasidim (stem from Kotzk)flocking the the shiurim of Rav Vechter or Rav Gopin on the holy torah of Rebinie hakodesh Baal Likutie Sichos. To finish it off, the Gerer Rebbe Zol zien Gezund was learning alot of Likutie Sichos before his nesius.(heard from a Mashbak of his father)
I think that since the Kotzker chasdim wishes to go to Lubavich that never really happened (besides Reb Meshel)there was never such a big crowd of that school studying toras chabad.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"a demonstrable Nishtakcho very painful to those of us who Shtam from Chabad CHasidim Rabbonim Talmidei Chachomim ad Lymei Adh"z."
Btw,
did the Baal Nihtakcho ZY"a who claim to be the Chasam sofer of our gen.produce a talmid like the Maharam Shik or Kol Arye?
or since he took his primary post in Urshive, he was in to turf fights on the mountains of Carpathian?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"I will not debate you.'
so you are done for the evening.
Are you the new Arthur Schlesinger of our generation? you put the final lid on history,nobody dare to challenge you?

Anonymous said...

Anon
you really believe that when reb Hilel Paricher traveled to Kiev to spread the message of chasidus, he attracted bigger crowds then Reb Yoel, the chosid of the Non Fabrik Rebbe?

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"The only major group of Tchernobel about is composed of Hungarian jews and led by Rebbes who are more Belz than Tchernobel"

if you mean the Skverer Rebbe of Upstate Ny, then I got to clarify,that with all the frumkiet of RY"Y he was very very against the Tielung,
(heard it from 2 people that heard it Mipeh Kodshoi)

Anonymous said...

The list of names cobbled together above are a mixture of some old Chsidim (R P Korf)
are Sridey Dor HaYoshon. Heintike are not at all what I meant.
Do you realize what could have been? Hundreds of Ovdim. Walking
into 770 at 3 pm on a weekday seeing all
vinkalach taken with yidden fardvaket bam davnen
A scene that once brought hirhurey tshuva
Afilu far yechdus. Not exactly what's seen today.. In any case you know that I am on the mark. How old was LR when he first met his FIL?(Big kanoy btw)
This made him a product of the Fabrik? During and after the Chasuna he took great pains to be part of what exactly? He took off to western europe.
The Amshinover Rebbe R Yitzchok ZL said vizoy die chasine in atvotsk iz tzigegangen hobn di libavicher chsidim zich gisheymt far inz in inz hommerzich gisheymt far di Litvakn. (I know a lie)
We have a lshona tova kartl from rebetzn shterne sora from atvotzk
I don't know who was more out of place. The LR or his new rebbetzin..

Anonymous said...

Anon
The are all talmidim of the Rebbe baal likutie sichos.

Anonymous said...

Anon
Are you actually proud of your list? That's
a musog of what Chabad was?
Its a fact the Belzer did put together at least of zeycher what was.
You see in both Bobovs a nice attempt as well
Ger is a wonderous job. It doesn't plug the hole but they're trying.
The Hungarians lmineyhem are probaby shenner now...

Anonymous said...

Anon
"This made him a product of the Fabrik? During and after the Chasuna he took great pains to be part of what exactly? He took off to western europe."
Is his problem that he knew his FIL as a mature adult? which rebbes from the Amool, became chasidim at younger ages? How old was the Yismach Moshe when he saw the Seer of Lublin?
He took off to western europe and did what?
studied to get himself a non rebishe carreer, and learned nigleh and chasidus with kedusha and tahara, plus worked on all his Fil projects.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Are you actually proud of your list? That's
a musog of what Chabad was?"
are this people talmidim of Seven Seventy? are they still around?
What age do you need exactly?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Its a fact the Belzer did put together at least of zeycher what was."
does Belz have a chosid like Tarnipoler Ruv? or Reb Shulem the Rosh Hayeshivah?Eeb Mielech Rumpler? or the Arugas Habosem and his family?
how is the zecher exactly? the Black socks?the mega edifice on the hill in Jerusalem?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"You see in both Bobovs a nice attempt as well"
I agree. that it is the same or million times better.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The Amshinover Rebbe R Yitzchok ZL said vizoy die chasine in atvotsk iz tzigegangen hobn di libavicher chsidim zich gisheymt far inz in inz hommerzich gisheymt far di Litvakn. (I know a lie)"
did you hear it from him?

russian chusid said...

Belz iz not a zeicher at all!!!
He took out all the geshmake chhonyokkeit from Belz, and made it an ofgeklerte plaz.

Disgusting!

Anonymous said...

Anon
"hobn di libavicher chsidim zich gisheymt far inz"
interesting, that I heard from the amolige Lubavicher Chasidim like Rav Riechig a chanyokishe chasidisher yid( his beard had more knots the the Amshinovers)Rav Hendel,Rav Kremer that were still chasdim of the Kanoi the Rayatz, very proud words of the chasuna.In matter of fact the whole polishe group in chabad were the first fierdige chasidim of the Rebbe.
By reading the letters of the chosid Rav althouse the chosid of the Reshab, you only see Kedusha and Tahara words of the Chasuna era. Were they Muchzak for liars?
It can not be they were all Alte Chasidim.

Yankee Raichik said...

Anonymous said...
The list of names cobbled together above are a mixture of some old Chsidim (R P Korf)
are Sridey Dor HaYoshon. Heintike are not at all what I meant.
Do you realize what could have been? Hundreds of Ovdim. Walking
into 770 at 3 pm on a weekday seeing all
vinkalach taken with yidden fardvaket bam davnen"

Anon, first, please write this quote from the amshinover in language thats understandable. I think u got your names wrong for starters. R' Yitzchok was a Rebbe in the USA. R' Shimmele was Rebbe in Otvotsk.

My father the Shadar, was known as an oived who davvenned for hours daily and esp on Shabbos(I can count on one hand how many times I heard kiddush from him Shabbos day, he came home 4-5 pm regularly). Yet he went every day to put tefillin on people, and would never walk out of the house without tefillin in case he meets someone. This idea that the Rebbe shut down the Rebbe Rashab's shita for outreach is a total fallacy. The Rebbe worked with what he had available. Ad hoyoim, there are plenty of oivdim in the yeshivas, but u won't see their pic in websites. And these same bochurim and yungeleit hit the streets on Friday afternoons to wake up yiddishe neshomos when their counterparts are saying shir hashirim or taking their pre-tish nap. It's fine to live that life and all the power to them, but don't knock the Rebbe about something that's simply no true. L'havdil, it's like the navy seal team 6, we know they exist but a real one will never talk about it.

I'm not one to hide behind anons so i'm writing my name. u can email me rabbiyankee@gmail.com to continue this conversation any time.

I heard from eletere chassidim that the derech the Rashab set forth was shayich to maybe 20% of the tmimim in Lubavitch. It's a derech we need to know exists uber men darf halten by derbai and most chassidim were never on that level. I was zoiche to a father who was there, so i know what it looks like.

Anonymous said...

The topic of whether
Chasidus is inherently at odds with kanous.
The Komarner brings very Sharfe things
from the Baal Shemtv he was mkabl from his shver R AM Pinchover ZL. A close Mkabl from Talmidei HaBlSHM Zya

Anonymous said...

Anon
can you explain this Nishtakcho business,
the SR disliked the chasidic quotes of ahavas yisroel are being used, so he came up with solution Nishtakcho,since he needed to demolish all that was in his way of his newfound theology.
Does that mean that whole Chasidic concepts evaporated?
Are all the works of the Divrie chaim al hatorah, Sifrie Bnie Yisoscher obsolete?
Is the Alte Rebbe shita on Achdus Hashem, or his biurim on Pesach, Tamlichini Aliechemof Rosh Hashana obselete?
Or only the quotes of ahavas yisroel?
All because of the sin kaviyochel of the LR mitzva tanks?
how can he damage everything retroactively?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The Komarner brings very Sharfe things"
what does he bring?
Did you see his words in Noitzer Chesed?

Anonymous said...

Yankee Raichik
Was you father at the Rebbes wedding?

yankee said...

The Rebbbe's wedding was in 5689/1928. My father was 10 yrs old then and living in a village in Poland. In 5696/1936 R' Shimmele Amshinover sent him to otwock, and he then became a chossid of the FR.

Anonymous said...

Yankee
was rav yossel wienberg there?

Anonymous said...

Yankee
Did your father ever visit the BP amshinover?

Anonymous said...

Yankee Raichik
R Yitchok lived with his uncle at the time. Thank you for a decent response.
At last redt men a bissl tzuderzach. I disagree on gevisse punktn but m'redt chotch dvorim shel taam.

valley boy said...

R Yankee, as a child i used to frequently see your father in mogen avrohom, i would love to see a biography on him published.

Yankee said...

Anon 7:59 8:00 8:42
Yossel Weinberg shlita is my fathers age so he would have been a kid. He wasn't there AFAIK.

The BP amshinover was my fathers chavrusa at one point. My father did meet with him several times in ny.

He was also my fathers age so I doubt he went to the wedding. He may have heard something from his uncle. The problem with this vertel is that R Shimmele sent several bochurim ti otwock and he knew they would convert. He could have sent them to chachmei Lublin if he wasn't so enamored of Chabad.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“Twistleton
"Whose decedents are now obsessed not with Mitzvahs but what kind of hat, and eier mit tzibel etc!!!!"
Before you brush a big part of Klal Yisroel or maybe the biggest part, with the wide brush, think for a minute,
Are Chasidin not makpid on mitzvahs, as Shabos, Matzohs, Tzedoka ,Tefilin, Tzitzes etc....”
OF COURSE THEY ARE. But the true obsessions abundant in Chassidish Krizen are hats, and minor minhogim etc.
“The Amshinover Rebbe R Yitzchok ZL said vizoy die chasine in atvotsk iz tzigegangen hobn di libavicher chsidim zich gisheymt far inz in inz hommerzich gisheymt far di Litvakn. (I know a lie)”
I PERSONALY heard from Rav Dovid Solivatcheick that where the LR got married the Chassidim were embarrassed. He may have said “older Chassidim”, but I think not.

Anonymous said...

R chaim hot gehalten andresh veign di upshmaden

Anonymous said...

He could have sent them to chachmei Lublin if he wasn't so enamored of Chabad.

If yachel was as local, maybe.

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
was reb Duvid by the Chasuna?

Anonymous said...

Hirshl: re RMZ not being a 'rebbe'- I'm still curious for the criteria of "mihu rebbe? Anyone else with this hidden knowledge is welcome to share it.

"Rehov slonim 11 said...
The difference between r arele and RMZ is RA IS Yesh mayan and rmz is usurping a title not his..."

By 'title' I assume you're referring to the namesake of some given East-European shtetl. There your distinction between Reb Arele and RMZ is correct; though, to me that's no title, tis merely a name for a corporation/congregation. My main issue is with the TITLE; namely: REBBE, how is he less REBBE than many other founders of parvenu chassidic groups, who's leaders - REBBES - saw themselves as spiritual inheritors of their rebbes' legacies?

Anonymous said...

"Yossel Gutnick said...
*** And of course we know the witty rejoinder of the Ba'al Hatanye to the Rebbe Rebb Burikl'l Medzibizher, vd"l. ***
Nope. What was it?"
In sepher hazikhronos "...Baal Hatanyeh responded to the RRB, "you indeed are a biological granson [fleishiker einikel/nekhed b'sari] of the BSHT, whereas I'm a spritual grandson [nekhed ruchani]"

Yossel Gutnick said...

Can someone answer my question, above???

yidel said...

"He could have sent them to chachmei Lublin if he wasn't so enamored of Chabad."

Yankee Raichik,
Sorry, you are showing plain ignorance here.It was almost impossible to get into Chachmei Lublin if you were not an amazing iluy or had massive pull/protekziya.
Lubavitch by having a yeshiva in the Litvishe shnit, with a choshuve rosh yeshiva like R'Yehuda Ebber drew in bochurim who could not go to Chachmei Lublin.Most chasidishe boys learned in shtiblach.R'Avrohom Yitzchok Garfinkel leoirech yomim told me this and explained how come his father sent him to Otvock though he was a Gerer chosid.

Anonymous said...

A rebbi, like a king needs haktara...coranation...r arele had ,toldos aaron had...like a kasav rabbanut...rmz doesnt have...
2) gerrer rebbis dont think too much of chabad...look at tolna leaks...

valley boy said...

I believe that R Shimele sent these bochurim to learn in the lubavitch yeshiva in otvotzk in spite of the risk that they would convert simply due to the quality of the yeshiva, after all, look at its product, brenedike chasidim. These same chasidim however lacked on these shores a yeshiva to further produce oisge'arbitte ovdim as themselves, and it shows in their children. Kulam ahuvim kulam brurim kulam kedoshim utehorim, ober doch...

valley boy said...

I believe that R Shimele sent these bochurim to learn in the lubavitch yeshiva in otvotzk in spite of the risk that they would convert simply due to the quality of the yeshiva, after all, look at its product, brenedike chasidim. These same chasidim however lacked on these shores a yeshiva to further produce oisge'arbitte ovdim as themselves, and it shows in their children. Kulam ahuvim kulam brurim kulam kedoshim utehorim, ober doch...

Yankee said...

yidel said...
Yankee Raichik,
Sorry, you are showing plain ignorance here.It was almost impossible to get into Chachmei Lublin if you were not an amazing iluy or had massive pull/protekziya."

I heard from my father about this issue many times. R' Shimmele davka sent my father to TT. The yeshiva was full and they poshut did not have room in the dorm. He wrote a personal letter to the FR asking to take him into the yeshiva. He was respected enough in Poland to get a bochur into YCL. And my father knew ktzos baal peh at the time, so WADR he could have gotten in YCL quite easily on his own merits.

Valley boy, I heard (totally unconfirmed) that R' Shimmele once said i know i'll lose them but i know zei velen bleiben yirei shamayim fun lernen chassidus.

yidel said...

"And my father knew ktzos baal peh at the time, so WADR he could have gotten in YCL quite easily on his own merits."

Yankee, with all due respect your father who was a tayereh yid was not in the league of YACHA"L talmidim who were literally the smeteneh and chosen two hundred boys out of the whole of Poland.The likes of R'Pinchas Hirshprung, and other famous rabbonim like Rav Vozner Shlit'a.Otvocker talmidim were baaley mesirus nefesh as we see from the few who survived and established Montreal for example but none that I know off at least went on to become major caliber talmidei chachomim.
As I said before chasidic Poland had very few yeshivos in the Litvishe shnit so Lubavitch filled a void for bochurim who wanted to learn by a very shtarkeh rosh yeshiva like Rav Ebber haya"d

valley boy said...

I believe that R Shimele sent these bochurim to learn in the lubavitch yeshiva in otvotzk in spite of the risk that they would convert simply due to the quality of the yeshiva, after all, look at its product, brenedike chasidim.

Were in agreement then.

Anonymous said...

Yidel, I hope you don't choke on your foot. What are you talking about!!??

Anonymous said...

I heard this from a eye witness who was standing bye when an old lubavicher cusid walked over to the SR z”l in shul after he finished davenin and asked him, how can u write that “the derech habasm’t is forgotten” the SR asked him ‘do u believe that the torah will be forgotten” the cusid was num so the SR continued: if the tora can be forgotten c”v as the gemorah says it will! why not the derech habasm’t? which he never even wrote down his derech by himself!, he continued the hagr”u z”l was against chasidus in his time most of the chasidum than where ‘very pious people’ why was he against them? Because he has forseen what will happen to casidus and he was making a ‘poel dimyoni’ by implying if I’m against it you sholdn’t be afraid to confront it either when the time comes! Powerful word but true.

Anonymous said...

In truth the derch h'acsam sofer which is a combination of halacha chasidus and kenois! is the way to go till moshiach will come

Lech said...

"I believe that R Shimele sent these bochurim to learn in the lubavitch yeshiva in otvotzk in spite of the risk that they would convert simply due to the quality of the yeshiva...".

Actually, he sent them there because they would have something to eat, which was hard to come by in Poland between the wars (heard from his nephew, the Rebbe ZY"A)

Anonymous said...

Yidel
"The likes of R'Pinchas Hirshprung, and other famous rabbonim like Rav Vozner Shlit'a."
not all of yachal were hirshprungs,and even Wosner is far from reb pimchas in the bekius in shas ans sharpness.
But I knew alot of Yachal talmidim in BP, that were noting to write home about. They were far from knowing Ketzois orally.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"I heard this from a eye witness who was standing bye when an old lubavicher cusid walked over to the SR z”l in shul"
1)tell that eyewitness that this meeting never happened, it is a lie, period
2) there is a big difference between the chazal's crying on shikchas hatorah and the SR saying Nishtakcho,By his saying Nishtakcho he is implying that you can not use chasidic concepts to argue and refute my hate doctrine, since it is Nishtakcho, so all the chasidic source are obsolete, nada, zilch. Now imagine someone would use this argument on toras hanigleh, that I can not bring a source of Bavli or Yerushalmi, since I found a chazal that prophecizes on Shikchas hatorah, so all tora is R"L obselete, this is kefira correct, and as they say in chabad, this nishtakcho business is also kefira but"Bedakas" (lite)

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Because he has forseen what will happen to casidus and he was making a ‘poel dimyoni’ by implying"
If for arguments sake the Gra's Cherem was for the future of chasidus, that means our era. Which personally I don't see what is so bad that a Cherem is provoked. Someone wearing a colored bekiche and eating kugel on shabos, even if he does not have all kisvie ariza'l on his mind, it is ludicrous, but no issur deoirayse.And if he meant the Rebbes that were pro the yishuv, then we have the same amount of Talmidi Talmidov of the Gra, starting by Rav Kook a talmid of Valozhin that was established by no other then the big talmid hagra Reb Chaim Valoizhiner.

Anonymous said...

"Bedakas" (lite)

Idiot Lite, the same argument of comparing shikchas hatorah and shikchas derech habasm't is made in v'yoel m'oshe itself and your idiot lite reasoning not withstanding.

Anonymous said...

"starting by Rav Kook a talmid of Valozhin" reading your 'suvura kreisious' i understand much better that indeed their is a shikchas hatorah and a shikchas of the derech habshmt'v

Anonymous said...

Anon
"reading your 'suvura kreisious'"
I love the way this words are translated to English, in the new book The Rebbe by Mizels of Seagate.

suvura kreisious' = belly logic,like Jelly Belly.
My belly was hurting from laughter when I came across the translation

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Idiot Lite"
I think if someone does not know the Veyoel on shikcha, is " Idiot Heavy"

Anonymous said...

Still searching for an answer to, "mihu rebbe???"

"Anonymous Anonymous said...
A rebbi, like a king needs haktara...coranation...r arele had ,toldos aaron had...like a kasav rabbanut...rmz doesnt have..."

What exactly is a "hakhtatrah/coronation" of a rebbi? Is a 'ktav rebbistive'part of this ceremony, or additional to it? Where in Chasidic literature do we find this institution of ""hakhtatrah/coronation"; in Siddur Radvill, Siddur Beis Yaakov Emdin, Likutey Tzvi, Taamey Haminhugim??? The last is actually the source of an oft abused anecdote that ten chassidim can imbue a walking-stick with rebbistive powers; this, with simple faith in the walking stick, no mention of any coronation rites for the walking-stick.
RMZ has quite an impresive following of faithfull; he 'pavvehs his oilem', visits his numerous shtibels, has a full shull at his 'tishen' and other ceremonials. I fail to see how he's "not a rebbi".

Anonymous said...

Anon
"RMZ has quite an impresive following of faithfull"
if we would not have Rebbes like RMZ,Kluger,Moregenstern and Erlanger, then chasidus should of a long time close shop.The establishment nepotisim rebbes are good managers roshie kehila. but no Rebbe material. They despise Rebbes like reb Mottel with a passion.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“Twistleton
was reb Duvid by the Chasuna?”
No. But he was in Warsaw either at that time or immediately afterwards. Personally, I don’t see the shock in that (nor particularly why that would reflect badly). Say what you want about the LR, but he was NOT a typical BNS’K, both in dress and going to university etc. Imagine if the Belzer Rebbe were to take such a SIL today. What would be the reaction?

Anonymous said...

"My belly was hurting from laughter when I came across the translation"

My intention was to say 'maskil' or 'tinuk shnishba bin yehidum'! but i decided 'suvura kreisious’ which is a milder term now I'm glad i did at least someone is laughing..

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
How old was he then?
the wedding was 83 years ago,Is Reb Duvid 96 or 90 to be then a 10 year old or bar mitzvah?

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
"he was NOT a typical BNS’K, both in dress and going to university etc"
you are correct the Lubavicher Rebbe was not a run of the mill rebish kind and not a run of the mill rebbe, very unique a limited edition.

Der Shygetz said...

Airmonter Chassidus as in Reb Lipa meAirmont is a great example of the true derech haBaal Shem Tov.

There probably are some Chabad shluchim who are close to it as well (or at least to the Alter Rebbe's version of derech haBaal Shem Tov which is of course totally acceptable). There are even one or two people in Crown Heights who qualify but they're private people and I can't share their names.

Breslov tries to live up to the derech haBaal Shem Tov but it has become a total free-for all and/or a collection of manipulative cult-like leaders who claim they are the latest incarnation of Rabbi Nachman ZYA.

Anonymous said...

Rmz
1) why the posters in ey refer to him as admor?
2) i saw him speak in english w a 8 minute intro that he cant speak english well...then spoke perfect english.
3) his gabbie here is not such a vig tzidik

Anonymous said...

Where did you see him on Utube?
If he has a gabie a shagetz, then he is a real rebbe?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“Twistleton
How old was he then?
the wedding was 83 years ago, Is Reb Duvid 96 or 90 to be then a 10 year old or bar mitzvah?”
Firstly, he is in his nineties. Secondly, he probably meant the entire period after the wedding as well, while the Rebbe was in university.

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
now I understand
what was his view on toras chabad excluding the Rebbe? was it positive?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Twistleton
now I understand
what was his view on toras chabad excluding the Rebbe? was it positive?

Never really discussed it with him. He was a Misnagid, although there was a certain respect for Chabad that it wasn’t as obsessed with ‘Nissim’ and ‘Minhogim’ but had a more intellectual bent. Which he felt was being lost in today’s Chabad. Which is why the subject came up.

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
"although there was a certain respect for Chabad"
he had no problem with toras chabad?
didnt his father keep up the cherem hagra?
I am asking because there are rumors as in Elichas Hagoan that the BR never let loose of the cherem

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"I am asking because there are rumors as in Elichas Hagoan that the BR never let loose of the cherem"

Stupidity!!The Brisker Rav was Misnagid, more than many of his Litvisher contemporaries. On the other hand, he had many talmidim who were Chassidish. He even asked the Stropkover Rebbe to marry his daughter. But he made a condition that the Stropkover give up the Rebbistever and all that it entails which is why the shidduch never happened. But his Cheder Rebbe was a Slonimer chossid. And his brother had a Lubavitcher chosid educate Rav Aron Solivatchick. The brother in law of the Brisker Rov was a Gerre Chossid.

Anonymous said...

Twistleton
"He even asked the Stropkover Rebbe to marry his daughter. "

You probably mean the Strikever that was considered his biggest talmid in Israel

"But he made a condition that the Stropkover give up the Rebbistever"

Why did it bother him that he has parnosa from rebisteve? will it take away from learning? was the Avnie nezer a lesser masmid then the Divrie Malkiel?

"But his Cheder Rebbe was a Slonimer"
the options in Brisk were very limited, to get a melamud in Brisk a Yerai Shomaim, that his probably the reason of RJBS chabadnik melamu in the town of Chaslvitz.I read in the book of RJBS sister that her mother Peshe did not like the Melamud's Tanya shiurim with her son.