Tuesday, July 14, 2009

Mayselach....



So, I'm communicating via e-mail to this Misngadic friend of mine and we're talking about Lubavitch. Aher un ahin. The same old reid; was Lubavitch always so hated by certain elements among the Litvishe or not. He brings up Reb Leib Bakst, later of Detroit, and says that since his Eyniklach went to the Lubavitcher cheder in Detroit, presumably because they had and have no limudei chol, and today they don't attend any more, that the change happened within Lubavitch, that they brought this upon themselves. Shoyn. Zol zein. Then he admitted to me that RLB was no soyneh to Chabad, something corroborated by Detroit Lubavitcher Chassidim whom I asked, who told me that he was very friendly with the old Rov of Lubavitch in Crown Heights, Rav Zalman Shimon Dworkin, z"l, and was bichlal not interested in the whole new Daas Teyreh movement. All he wanted to do was learn BiMenuchas HaNefesh, not wage wars against his own landsleit.

Then my tatte, ZGZ, told me over Shabbos how a chaver of his who learned in NIRC many moons ago told him at the chaver's child's wedding or subsequent Sheva Brochos how RJIR was such a farbissene soyneh to Chabad that it was mamesh shocking! The Talmdim who knew RJIR's background - that his father was a Lubavitcher Chossid who took young Yankel to Lubavitch to be blessed by the Rebbe Rashab - asked why he hated Lubavitch so, wasn't he from there? His answer? מתחלה עובדי ע"ז היו אבותינו..... I guess he was saying it in jest, but still, is that what you tell Temimus'dike American bochurim? The man also said that RJIR was originally taken to Lubavitch to learn, but the Rebbe told him he was too young to learn there, so he took him to Slabodka instead. I'm not sure of that. All I heard was that he got a Brochoh from the RR, and made some snide remark years later about that Brochoh not being Mekuyam, beacuse the Brochoh to be a Talmid Chochom never came to fruition...

Today after Mincha I was talking to a Yid, a Lubavitcher Chossid, a former Talmid of Gateshead, and the discussion turned to his former RY, Reb Leib Gurevitz. I was always under the impression that he was a strong adversary of Chabad, and I told him so. The Misnagdim - not the Nisht Chassidim - use him as another "rayah" that Chabad is evil, so me being a curious guy, I tried to verify that supposed fact. The man told me the following story in response to my query: One day Rav Moshe Sternbuch - mechaber of Moadim U'zemanim and today Ra'avad of The Eidah HaCharedis, came to town. Now, in GH just about anybody could come to Yeshiva and give a shiur, and RMS was to give a shiur that night (or day). The morning of the shiur after shacharis RMS and RLG were talking, while the latter was wrapping up his Tefillin, and the discussion somehow turned to Lubavitch, with RMS using the term "der Parisher student" to refer to the Rebbe. Reb Leib heard that and turned his back on Sternbuch, saying "that if the world would listen to the Rebbe we'd be much better off." Next thing they know, RMS was not allowed to say his shiur... Take that as you wish. Reb Leib was apparently very close to Rav Simcha Elberg, who was very close to the Rebbe and would visit Lubavitch very frequently, so maybe from there he got a shtikkel education.

.....שיינע מעשה'לאך

199 comments:

Kremenchug said...

" RJIR was such a farbissene soyneh to Chabad that it was mamesh shocking!"

Nu, Nachmanson...Nu, Nu Lulov.

'Siz a B'pheirishe Tanya....Az Klipa iz azoi Farnimist mit Zich, es vert noch mer fargrebt.

I believe they call that a negative feedback loop.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“All I heard was that he got a Brochoh from the RR, and made some snide remark years later about that Brochoh not being Mekuyam, beacuse the Brochoh to be a Talmid Chochom never came to fruition...”

I don’t think that was being snide, it was being self depreciating.

Yumy said...

You cannot leave the issue of proving how everyone loved Lubavitch.
I guess you know what a lie that is hence the pathetic attempt, to "prove" it.
Prove it from today till tomorrow and Lubavitch will still be mecuhtz lemachaneh yisroel.There are no Lubavitchers that have any halechik or rabbinic standing based on their own merit mechutz lemachane Chabad or very few by the Modern Orthodox.
Sure there are some Chabad Chief rabbis in Israel who got their jobs with Chabads political pull or had a dad (Landau).
The last Lubavitcher who held any impartial respect, to the best of my knowledge would be Bistrizky from Zfas.True Lubavitch in a reverse on their stand regarding rabbonus biyerusha in Bnei Brak, blocked Rabbi Kaplans son, the previous rov from getting the shtella.Still Bistrizky was a choshveh yid.Lemel Cohem from Beitar may get asked a few shailos by non Lubavitch.That's about it

yumy said...

R'Ruderman used to travel with his mini Tanya whenever he left town as told to me by his grandson .
He was probably a misnaged to the latter day Lubavitch

שניאור said...

He was probably a misnaged to the latter day Lubavitch

and you're probably an idiot...

yumy said...

"and you're probably an idiot..."
Than you.
You have not yet recovered from the yud beis farby....

שניאור said...

No, I'm very much recovered, sadly.

The man was telling stories he heard from Talmidim. They have no reason to lie. Yet you blow in here and attack the Bal HaBlog personally. For some reason he allows these attacks to pass. Very nice of him. But I surely don't need to.

Now go on, boy

Friendly Anonymous said...

>his Eyniklach went to the Lubavitcher cheder in Detroit, presumably because they had and have no limudei chol, and today they don't attend any more, that the change happened within Lubavitch, that they brought this upon themselves<

I frequently meet fantastic Lubavitchers who used to live in Detroit, but had to move for economic reasons. When a community can't support its best people, and consequentially loses them, it is little wonder that it will fail.

Kremenchug said...

"and you're probably an idiot..."

Not probably!

Yumy, we know who you are, you gave it away with that 'grandson told me' shtick.

Back to the museum for you, old boy.

yumy said...

"The man was telling stories he heard from Talmidim. They have no reason to lie."

Whoa,whoa chaver!!!
Not so fast...
This story is a fourth hand story, right? We have a A)A friend of Tzigs father, telling B)Tzigs father C)telling Tzig D)Who tells us.
Wait, I'm not finished yet:How do you know if they have a reason to lie or not??Maybe Mr A disliked Lubavitch, maybe the story got garbled,eh...
Anyway, what I said was that R'Rudermans favored sefer when traveling was a Tanya,so it must be that he disliked latter day Lubavitch?
Sound like rocket science to you?
Yeah, actually most rosh yeshiva of his time had a similar sentiment..

מול העינם said...

Yumi, neither the Chassidisch DL, or Sephardi worlds consider Lubavitch מחוץ למחנה only the Litvish and (and some Centrist/MO).
I don't know who the מחנה is but don't confuse the Litviss with גאנץ כלל ישראל

yumy said...

Mul Ho'eyNanayim,
I notice that you did not spell out in full what DL stands for.For good reasons I guess. Dati Leumi!!
Nu, shoyn, you have haskoma (according to you) from people who are not very makpid on the Dati part.
Bravo.Auch mir a haskomeh!
Sefardi and some Chasidim are not as virulently opposed.The Sephardy masses with their pictures of Babba Saly are the people you are looking for hashomo from?You must be quite desperate!Satmar for example are very against.

Ok guys let's talk examples.Maskim?

Can you tell me about any widespread following of any psak of the Rebbe outside of Lubavitch???


Take into consideration that the Rebbe has a literal army of people doing their outmost to "chap" people, convince them to come to the Rebbe etc.
Bottom line, with all their efforts who have they convinced?The bochurim I knew who became Lubavitchers were by and large naive lost souls at best or people who were socially challenged.For Lubavitch that made no difference by them it's a numbers game."We were mekarev so many pounds of flesh".

The height of Lubavitcher chutzpah is to around schonrerring from Jews for the good things they do and then, when other Jews use their facilities, especially if they are frum, they badmouth them and call them ingrates ,Snags etc.Yeah???You guys go collecting from other Jews, draw a salary to support your families based on your shlichus and then when people avail themselves to their services, especially if they are not rich and leave a fat check get called names.A Lubavitcher "rabbi" I know was ranting and raving about the "chutzpah" of a frum non Lubab guy who led the services during davening and made a booboo but not following Chabad custom to the n'th degree.I quickly shut the guy up by asking him if when he was kissing up to people to build the shul, if he ever made sure that the money was "shechitas Lubavitch" only, if you get your $$$ from Lubab have a minimal respect for them too!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yumy

you're doing yourself a great disservice by avoiding the issue here and rambling on and on. We heard these "facts" over and over again.

Please control your urges.

yumy said...

"you're doing yourself a great disservice by avoiding the issue
here"

Hirshel leiben,
Help me out with the issue here,maskim?
You claim that Horav Ruderman disliked Lubavitch intensly, yeah?
To which I answered that being that his favorite Torah material when travelling was his small Tanya, it must be that he was intensly disliked latter day Lubavitch.
Btw, risking being called a rambler , the story given in an obituary on Matzav.com iirc was that the Rasha'b asked R'Rudermans dad to send him to Tomchei Temimim but the father decided instead to send him to Slabodka.
Also you totally missed R'Rudermans remark that the Rasha'bs brocha of him becoming a Talmid Chochom was not mekuyam.Twisty already chapped you on that.You must be one of those naive souls who got reeled in to Lubavitch to miss such and obvious self deprecating statement!

Vos noch hot mehn gehat?
You claim that Rav Bakst was close to R'Zalman Shimon???I have news for you, genius!Many rabbonim respected him.He was old school Lubavitch!Some have even claimed that when he was nifter around mem heh, Lubavitch lost the last person who could keep them grounded.He was the one guy who the Rebbe respected enough ........

Binyomin said...

I want to add Hirshel that I'm not in the employ of any large religous conglomerate, so there is no "disservice to my cause" .I'm saying my opinion.Your guys are always there on outreach try to reel in new "fish".
As far as I'm concerned to paraphrase a respected Lubavitcher chosid of old, who when he heard that all the tzebrocheneh neshomos and meshugoim are going to a certain rebbe who's name I can't recall and "veren geholfen" he said "Zollen alleh meshugoim oon krankeh geyen dort oon mir vellen vayter geyen to oonzereh rebbe"
Take all the krankeh and various meshgoyim off our hands.
A scheynem dank!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yumy

"latter day Lubavitch?" are we back to that pack of lies?

What was latter day Lubavitch in 1960, when these stories happened? what was latter day Lubavitch in 1940, when bachurim were not allowed to go to New York to greet the Frierdiker Rebbe N"E?

where was the love for "Old-time" Lubavitch when he dropped everything Lubavitch and became a regular "Litvak?"

I'm telling you stories told by people who are not Lubavitcher, but know that my father has a Lubavitcher son, which is why they told him... They have nothing to gain either way

I didn't miss anything, you ninkompoop, I get the self-deprecating part just as you and Twisty did. Don't patronize yourself. Please.

The Tanya that he supposedly traveled with - but that nobody saw - was either LeKanter, to take for his shmuesen without crediting, or just a souvenir that he had from his old man that he liked...

:-p

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אט אזוי רעדט א מתנגד

Jews are not what he wants....

Thank You, Binyomin for clarifying..........

yumy said...

"I didn't miss anything, you ninkompoop, I get the self-deprecating part just as you and Twisty did. Don't patronize yourself. Please."

Yet you called the remark snide.....
Ahem.'Course you got....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

You just don't get it. This stuff is "normal" in your eyes. The only reason he made that supposed self-deprecating remark was because it was at the expense of the RR He would never say that about the Alter or even the Alte....

What was that about a museum?

yumy said...

"The Tanya that he supposedly traveled with - but that nobody saw"

Whoa, man....this is getting crazy.
How do you know if anybody saw it?
You didn't see.Nu, gut.I told you what his grandson told me after I had heard this and wanted to verify.
I'm sure others can verify this, though, it was not a widely known fact.I have also heard that he davened nusach ari.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

aderaba

verify!

yumy said...

Last but not least
When I say latter day I mean about what you get all twisted into a pretzel about.Yeah, dos meyn ich.

Stam naygereek, if Lubavitch would allow boys to take of two days from yeshiva to meet a Snag rabbi.Would they?

Why meet him? Were there not enough people at the reception?

yumy said...

This the way Matzav.com tells the story about his visit as a kid to Rasha'b
-----------------------------
"Shortly before his bar mitzvah, Reb Yehuda Leib took him for a bracha to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Shalom Ber, zt”l. The Rebbe was so impressed that he blessed the boy that he should grow to be an “adam gadol.” The Rebbe wanted the youth to learn in Lubavitch, but Reb Yehuda Leib chose instead to send him to Slonim.

The young ilui from Dolhinov soon developed a remarkable reputation. At that time it was customary for Slabodka talmidim to seek exceptional bochurim to join Slabodka. The future Chevron Rosh Yeshiva Rav Yechezkel Sarna, zt”l, who was already one of the Alter of Slabodka’s closest talmidim, convinced the young genius to join Slabodka. That decision was undoubtedly a watershed in his life."

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

dunno if they would, but here was a bachur who recently arrived in America, who learned in Lubavitch in Otwock and wanted to see the Rebbe who just arrived - miraculously, I might add.

and here was a RY who shtammed from Chabad and needed to prove a point...

that's all

yumy said...

Hirshel
Before you continue shraying gevalt let me be clear!
The way I understand it Rav Ruderman was a Misnaged.Yeah.A talmid muvhok of the Alter Mislabodka.Misnaged does not mean an enemy.HOWEVER,I think that he was shtark misnaged to Lubavitch starting with the Rayat'z.That is what I think.
This is not unusual, even the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself claimed that Misnagdim and chasidim got on well.The Rebbe himself talked about his Zeideh the Tzemach Tzedek being on good terms with Misnagdishe rabbonim talmidei Hagro.
The Rebbe goes on to say that R'Chaim Ozer was good with the Shver.
Nu,
Vohs vilt ihr?Your Rebbe agrees that a new machloikes started out what him!!!You want to be smarter than the Rebbe?

So for anyone who knows history
The main machloikes with Chabad started with the previous Rebbe towards the end of his life!And slowly escalated with the Rebbe till it exploded .Hopefully things will calm down, but not if you, Hirshel can do something about it.
After all you (and your blog)seem to thrive on this machloikess!!!


So actually your misnaged e-mail friend was right!

yumy said...

"and here was a RY who shtammed from Chabad and needed to prove a point..".


And here is a Lubavitch blogger who needs to make a point....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

!שוין
if you compare me to Yankel Dolhinover I agree

:-)

yumy said...

My friend Hirshel,
Let me tell you a small story about one of the best alegemeineh chasidishe yeshivas in Boro Park.Shaarei Yoisher.
I was talking to one of the magidei shiur,I asked him that since all the boys in yeshiva were chasidish, what happens when one wants to go to a special occasion by his rebbe, does he get permission? He answered absolutely not!Only if there would be a special request by a parent.
The reason I asked was that chasidic boys in Litvishe yeshivos always complained about not being allowed during sidrei hayeshiva to attend their hoyfs celebrations/tischen/whatever.So it was interesting that serious chasidishe yeshivas would also not allow it.
If you don't like the way the yeshiva is run, there is always the door.;....

Schneur said...

Its interesting to see your attempt at building a whole scientific theory about Lubavitch-Eylmshe realtionships built on stories and anecdotes , its like building a theory of Halacha solely on Maase rav's, forgetting about any serious sifre halacha.
Let me point out that to understand classical Chabad -Lithuanian relationship you need to realize (I have wtitten this 1000 times) that until 1930 almost all Lubavitcher people were Litvishe Yidden.The Peylishe in Otwock yeshiva were talmidim ther some came to have meals others to get away from home, others yearned for spirituality, and most did not become Chabad .
Next you need to understand the social and cultural history of Lithuanian White Russian Jewry and above all understand that Chabad had much more in common. with their litvishe brothers than they did with other Chassidim in Poland, Ukraine and even the Stolin, Slonim, Koidenov chassidim in Lithuania.Take a look at some of the Yizkor bicher from that area and you will learn much.
Finally you need to understand that both movements changed. Chabad became an outreach movement centered on their rebbe open to all,abandoned its inner spiritual treasures and the Yeshiva movement became an elite Torah strand with a new componenet Daat Tore designed to place them right smack in the middle of where their students and donors came from -Hungary.While at the same time forgetting about unique Litvishe movement called the Mussar movement.
So today neither the Lubavitchers nor the yeshivas are Lithuanian in any which way or form and to understand rhe way the younger people in each group relate to each other you neded to study different issues. But if you keep hacking a cheynik about Rabbis Kotler, Ruderman, Kalmanowitz, Zalman Shimon et al you need to know the background where they came from and excuse me for saying this , they did not come from Marmorash Minkatz , or Spinka.
Let me just add that knowledge is liberating !

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Schneur

always a pleasure.

I myself have read this from you about 626 times, and I do appreciate it every single time!

yumy said...

The story with Shaarei Yoisher was years ago.I don't know what happened there lately, but they seem to be in bad shape or closed.Quite unbelievable actually

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Comparing 1940 and the Rebbe arriving, to bachurim going to Yohrtzit tishen and Zos Chanukah every year is quite different..

Anonymous said...

Threaded through every chapter of Rav Ruderman’s life are stories of his complete immersion in learning to the exclusion of all else. Once, a talmid was speaking with an elderly man, a native of Lithuania. Upon hearing the name of the Rosh Yeshiva, the man exclaimed, “Ruderman from Dolhinov? Can’t be! That’s extremely interesting. He was well known in the town, a ten year old boy who would walk down the main street talking to himself! He did this every day from morning until evening. And you say this boy became a Rosh Yeshiva?!”

Upon returning to Baltimore, the bochur reported this conversation to the Rosh Yeshiva, who confirmed it. “I would walk back and forth along the street, learning pages of Gemara by heart. In my pocket I kept a small Gemara and occasionally when I was afraid I hadn’t repeated what was written accurately enough, I would look into the Gemara and then continue.”

Anonymous said...

the sefer "kol brisk" 's hakdoma has enough fodder to keep you happy till r"h.
check it out. enjoy

yumy said...

"Comparing 1940 and the Rebbe arriving, to bachurim going to Yohrtzit tishen and Zos Chanukah every year is quite different.."

That is what you think.

I don't think Rav Ruderman would have a problem with Kubalsky (that's who u mean, probably)going to the rebbe beiz hazmanim.

Whatever, it does not make a difference.The facts are most probably that Rav Ruderman dislikeD Lubavitch starting from Rayat'z and I'm not denying that at all.

s said...

"kol brisk"

Vos iz dos?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

right

so he took it out on Kowalksy... very nice of him.

I'm sure had he asked to greet RAK or RBB when he arrived back in the 20s there would be no issue

So Bittul Teyreh wasn't really the issue after all...

Anonymous said...

kol brisk proclaims in its opening paragraph of the first page that

midos and torah are ONE. And no one from ey has a monopoly on toras brisk because he doesn't have midos.....

yumy said...

"'m sure had he asked to greet RAK or RBB when he arrived back in the 20s there would be no issue

So Bittul Teyreh wasn't really the issue after all..."

Listen, this statement INFURIATES ME!!!

No, nothing to with Lubavitch per se (but maybe something to do with the minds of people attracted to latter day Lubavitch....)

I feel like screaming but know it won't help.So.....calmly explain to me how YOU KNOW how R'Ruderman would have reacted if it was R'A Kotler or R'Boruch Ber?
What kind of silly boych sevora that you are "so sure of" are you saying, that on top of it you built a house of cards that bittel teyreh was not the problem!!
C'mon I feel like I'm arguing with the logic of a vybel.Man!!

yumy said...

toof offense at my last comment?

yumy said...

"I'm sure had he asked to greet RAK or RBB when he arrived back in the 20s there would be no issue

So Bittul Teyreh wasn't really the issue after all..."

I asked (you did not post it for some reason)how you are "so sure"?
In Livishe Yesivas they say "koidem leygts arop a hanocheh oon der noch frygtsteh kashes"
IT could very well be that R'Ruderman would absolutely not allowed two days off for a kobolas ponim.You surely don't know.You never ever knew Rav Ruderman!

Not Brisk said...

Anybody have information about personal, one and one interactions with R' Chaim Ozer and the FR. No, not public common ground stuff.

YUMY said...

I am also not sure what you are trying to "prove" about Rav Ruderman.
I've already fully agreed that he disliked Lubavitch, that is my understanding.I added that apparently the dislike was towards #6&7 of the line because from what I heard he kept up with Nusach Ari, no tefillin on chol hamoed and studied Tanya.
So, do we agree ABOUT THESE FACTS??

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Lets see all your facts first , How many universal poskim you have from the biggest chasidic kehila on earth Satmer? Rav Friedman, Rav Fulop, Rav Wienberg, Katz, all their rabonim are localized and thats it, they are not consulted on anything.and they are serving the whim of the bosses as the Rabinut rabonim are serving the whim of the government.All the pesokim change with regime.
Belz in the us and isreal has no big rov that has a outside following, Rav Ekstien is starting to build a name in kashrus,Rav Shamai Gross is not known out the Belz perimeters, and so is Ger with the biggest emphasis on torah since matan torah with no big talmud chochom since Rav Menachem Zembo, and so is both Visnitzers Bobov, all are localized, and Klal Yisroel is fressing whatever the Tietelbaum brothers produce may it be Chailev, Nevailo there is a consensus by all the fressers the brothers are legit even tough they are offical corrupt as the just recently Stern bakery in BP showed for the world how low they are. But its business as usual because we need to fress. But in matter of fact the seforin of Rav Farkash in Hilchos Shabos, Nida, Choil hamoed are considered masterpieces and its being used in all kolelim where halacha is studied beiyun and so is Rav Ashkenazis and Reb Chaim Sholems hot seforim. You have no idea of facts on the ground just that chabad has to bashed 24/7

Snag Jr said...

"Rav Farkash in Hilchos Shabos, Nida, Choil hamoed are considered masterpieces and its being used in all kolelim where halacha is studied beiyun"

BS

you are confusing it with Ribiat and Simcha Bunim.

No current halachah sefer is as vital and INDISPENSIBLE as that Chaim Berliner.

yumy said...

"But in matter of fact the seforin of Rav Farkash in Hilchos Shabos, Nida, Choil hamoed are considered masterpieces and its being used in all kolelim where halacha is studied beiyun and so is Rav Ashkenazis and Reb Chaim Sholems hot seforim. You have no idea of facts on the ground just that chabad has to bashed 24/7"

Anon,744
Thank you for coming up with three (!)mechabrim, that you a nogea badovor says eidus about (while badmouthing everybody else.Bravo)
Re:Forkash, is a talmid of R'Arelach and Rav Vozner, so nice try over there.R'Chaim sholoms hot seforim (Deitsch??)don't know his hot seforim, but yes he is a voileh yid and yes he learned in Ponovitch, before he made the mistake....
Bkitser, from all your "pounds of flesh" Gurnisht?Vus geit du for?
Out of literally thousands of quality mechabrim, you have found three, and 2/3ds of them got a nice chunk of their learning out of Chabad.

yumy said...

"Ger with the biggest emphasis on torah since matan torah with no big talmud chochom since Rav Menachem Zembo"

Hey brother, easy off the kool-aid!
I'm so not a chosid of Ger, but this is just ludicrous!

Anonymous said...

Was Ruderman the rosh in the baltimore yeshiva that is affiliated with John Hopkins? is it true that that is the success of that Yeshivah because sitting in Ner Yisroel gives you some credits for college.
So what exactly was Rudermans problem with Chabad? Kiruv? Bittul Torah? was a bigger masmid then Reb Shulem Marozov A"h that was boki on Kol hatorah kilo nigleh kebenistar,he definitly knew kisvie hagro on kabolah on kabolah better then Ruderman. So it is basicaly broken down he wanted to be a Zach a Chaftze exactly the opposite of Reb Sholem who I think also learned Tanya.
Just one more shalai how come the legacy of all this american Gedolim besides Reb Mosheis vanishing like endangered species? The new genaration has no Idea who this gedolim are, its all the Eretz Yisroel Gedolim

twistelton-twistelton said...

"The only reason he made that supposed self-deprecating remark was because it was at the expense of the RR He would never say that about the Alter or even the Alte...."

HU?! You totaly missed the boat. It was at HIS expense. There is a very similar story with Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer and one of the Litvish Gedolim ( who blessed his wife that she would marry a Godol, much to the later puzzelment of Rav Isser Zalman. I am 1000% sure Rav Ruderman would have said that same with the Alter. Stop looking to take offence.

yumy said...

Anon 744
While you are at it, can we take a stroll through Yerusholayim,Bnei Brak, Boro Park,Willy,Monsey and check all the non Lubavitch shuls and see for ourselves how many Likutei Sichos are in them?
I'm not talking about Snag shils (or what you would call kloysters)I'm talking about all those groups who are so pro-Lubavitch,beclompish,like Chasidim,Mizrachi,Sefardim etc.

You are going to have a big problem finding them.
You may ask "vous iz ess nogea to mir"? Well, you tried to prove that R'Forkoshes seforim are universally available in serious halocho kolelim(something I don't know but highly doubt)meaning that the fact that the seforim are widely studied PROVES how highly the author is regarded,right?'Ta, vohs vesteh tohn when we see the paucity of Lekutei Sichos by non-anash, what is that supposed to tell you?
Btw I think R'[Forkosh is a serious talmid chochom

yumy said...

"So what exactly was Rudermans problem with Chabad? Kiruv? Bittul Torah? was a bigger masmid then Reb Shulem Marozov A"h that was boki on Kol hatorah kilo nigleh kebenistar,he definitly knew kisvie hagro on kabolah on kabolah better then Ruderman. So it is basicaly broken down he wanted to be a Zach a Chaftze exactly the opposite of Reb Sholem who I think also learned Tanya."
What is this gibberish about?
Anybody mention R'Shulem Morozov?
Hey, Anon, if you are a Snag trying to make Lubabs look stupid, lay off, they can do the job all on their own without clowns like you!!

yumy said...

Twisty,
Don't rub it in! Hirshel got caught talking nonsense and is somehow trying to prove that he "did get it"

yumy said...

Hirshel,
You said in the post
"RJIR was such a farbissene soyneh to Chabad that it was mamesh shocking! "
Don't yet see anything "shocking"
Did not let Kowalsky travel all the way to New York to meet the boat is "shocking"
Bombastic lingo won't get you anywhere.
Facts, my friend, facts!!!

Anonymous said...

Ymmy
Chabad Michutz Lemachne..
You love to recycle it with glee,
Its amazinfg that the Shiurie Chassidus in the whole world are growing tremendously. In a town like Boro Park the shiur of Reb Liebel atracts every Shabos morning 80 yungeliet with shtrimels there is not even notices on the street,Reb mendel vechter Rav Zalmen Goffin Reb Chaim Sholems are followed by hundreds of chasidishe Yungeliet in Eretz Hakedoshe, I see a awakening that wasnt for years in chabad,the Chassidut Mevueres became a classic in every shul and Yeshiva, even in alot of satmar shuls. We have to bring back Der Alter of Benai Berak Neshoma Beguf, the Churban is big nobody beats him in spreading the hate theology as him. Its even worse the meshichisten didnt convert yet to Islam or Christianity

yumy said...

Stam azoi,
You claim that your fathers friends were telling him these stories because they know he has a son a Lubavitcher.
Vekhn haben shoeil, bemechilas ovicho:Why would your tatteh want to tell you stories that cause you anguish?Don't get it.And why couldn't you just tell us all the "shoching" things in the name of an anonymous friend?
Scratching my head trying to understand

Anonymous said...

Yumy
You started out by degrasing Lubavich Rabonim and left out Bistritzky (You didnt say Likutie sichois which there is as much as Imrie chaims and Avi Ezri) which shows you have know idea what torah is all about,

Anonymous said...

Yumy
If reb Sholem Chaim is a talmid Chochom because of Ponovich so maybe Ruderman is a talmid chochom because of his lubavitcher melamud he had as a young boy

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

cause me anguish? you're mistaken, my friend. They do nothing of the kind.

My father didn't tell me details, maybe he didn't hear any either. The point was not the stories, but the idea, and the "vort" he said about מתחלה עובדי ע"ז

try not to scratch too hard

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The shocking stories are not Kowalksy related. This man was there 20+ years later

yumy said...

"In a town like Boro Park the shiur of Reb Liebel atracts every Shabos morning 80 yungeliet with shtrimels "

Why are you showing yourself for "shtuts nar"?
Firstly I don't go to Altein so I don't know the numbers, but half of Lubavitch on 16ave are Shtreimels anyway.So what are you proving that out of thousands of yidden in BP, 40 "FREMDEH" come to listen to R'Altein who is supposed to be your big "kop shtick"??
The only time Lubavitch gets any kind of crown is when they give out freebies and bring clowns (the real kind)for the kids Lag Bo'omer parade!
This despite pumping in millions of $ for a chasidic library in a big building on 52 and practcally giving away seforim for free!
If you want to know the truth, would Rav Shach get up and see what has happened with Lubavitch, with the Meshichists with the yellow flags, he would give out a huge krechtz and say "I
tried my best to save Lubavitch "

Anonymous said...

Shneur
You are harping on the anthropological theory that the whole of Greater Russia Jewry was a big landsliet club and everybody was in love with everybody. So I thank hashem that the Rebbe pulled out chabad from the secluded exclusive russian club and presented to the masses of Spinka< Munkatch, Satmer etc..

yumy said...

Hirshel,
Try your best not to give us a story like the "shocker" with the crazy yingerman from your shil when you still lived in BP,the guy who was prepared to basheygetz his poor mom after her passing, abi, he makes a Snag look bad.

Anonymous said...

R. Ruderman's relationship with Chabad, the FR and the Rebbe is very complex and knotty. It can be reduced to one story for simplicity, but there's alot more to it. And I'm aware of the sicha (20 cheshvan 5744?) where the Rebbe mentioned something and most people took it to mean RYR.

He gave a shiur in 5740 in Lubavitch YG Miami for the bochurim and repeated the story with the brocha and then said that I am now giving this brochah over to you.

When he was niftar, I was in Maryland and got a phone call from Shmuel Kaplan that the Rebbe's mazkirus wants all the lubabs to go to the levaya. I don't know why, but obviously the Rebbe felt it important. BTW, R. Leibel Groner was upfront at Reb Shneur's levayah, and he definitely did not go on his own initiative.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anonymous 8:38

!דאס איז גערעדט
Finally. some goodwill may be injected into this conversation yet

Thank you!

Anonymous said...

Rav Shach wasn't the one to start exposing lubavitch, it was start by the steipler, rav shach just continued it after the steiplers passing. The chassidim respected the steipler - because of his kedusha - too much that they couldn't vilify him, so they just ignored him. so they passed the opportunity to knock yet another talmid chochom because of the risk of it back firing by the other chasidim.

Am I the only one here who knows what RR said over from lita about 1)the alter rebbe, 2)about the tanya?
(hint: it wasn't anything tzig would brag about)

ConsumerVigilante said...

nu nu, at the end of the day we all get thrown into the ovens together....just keep that in mind...v'dal...

Anonymous said...

Yumy
The fact is that their is a huge shiur in BP with 90 % fremde, There is no other chassidic sefer or mussar shiur in BP with such a big crowd you can bark till dem Viesen tog arien..
Shach is a political failure, the yellow flag is still better then having a scandolous beis din in Benai Berak that is in the news every day for a different scandal, and has to interjected with life every half a year by Eliashev or his SIL, While Rav Landau hechsher is considered the holiest hechsher in the world

Feivel ben Mishael said...

I was told by an older Gerrer chossid who knows R' Moshe Shternbuch from South Africa, that he personally witnessed RMS cry profusely as a reaction to the histalkus of The Lubavitcher Rebbe.

jfaygrun said...

Anon
The stiepler Exposed lubavich for what????
When ????

In His letters?????
I think I saw someplace a document that the Lubavicher fraudsters suckered him in to buy a letter in the sefer torah shel Moshiach or the Sefer torah hakloli

Anonymous said...

Fievel
then he his bipolar

Anonymous said...

Genuk,with your revisonist history.R LEIB was a chosid muvahak of r shach was mshadech with R shneur kotler,R elya svei.Stop with your chabadtsikee lack of confidence.Go put on a yellow kappel and sing yechi de gantze nacht mit a bissel mashke

Anonymous said...

Chosid of R shach, cant you think for a second that the shach terror brigade (exposed today in Pomovizh big time)terrorized him? to talkand to write in order to fit with the crowd?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 10:23

did I say he was a Chossid? so he was Meshadech, so what. How does that shlog op my story?

Snag Jr. said...

"The chassidim respected the steipler - because of his kedusha - too much that they couldn't vilify him, so they just ignored him."

Come on. I am mivater on the hasagus gevul, but at least taynah to the zach. The Steipler wasn't vocal; he wasn't publically led to tears over the current issues- rabit eating kibutzniks, etc....

Ner Israel Moments said...

A quote from a journal called Ner Israel Moments, published by the NIRC Ladies Auxiliary in June 2006:

A talmid of Rav Ruderman who now works for the Yeshiva writes:

"He (R Ruderman) also has some (concerns) of his own. He once told me that he wanted to make sure that I was not attracted to a certain chassidic group that espouses outreach. (I never was). He told me that Rav Schach wanted to excommunicate them but that he and Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky had objected. It wasn't that he didn't share Rav Schach's view (he certainly did), rather, it was his understanding of th ramifications in the United States of such an open condemnation.

תם said...

Innocent question:

does anybody know why the Yeshivah left New Haven and went to Baltimore? Was Rav Ruderman not in New Haven first? why did he leave?

Y said...

Hirshel

I remember hearing at the time when R' Ruderman was ill shortly before his passing he had asked for a brocha from the Rebbe.
I definitely heard it from a reliable source although I understand it will carry no weight with the Oilom goilom on your blog.

Feivel ben Mishael said...

"It wasn't that he didn't share Rav Schach's view (he certainly did), rather, it was his understanding of th ramifications in the United States of such an open condemnation."

What would the ramifications be?

yumy said...

"Shach is a political failure, the yellow flag is still better then having a scandolous beis din in Benai Berak that is in the news every day for a different scandal, and has to interjected with life every half a year by Eliashev or his SIL, While Rav Landau hechsher is considered the holiest hechsher in the world"

Anon 10:14
You are probably the same gevorener from before.
Anyway,I did take note your hakpudeh not to chas veshulem call Horav Shach or Horav Elyoshiv with at least a simple Reb, rather, the plain Shach and Elyoshiv,HOWEVER,you made sure that you called Rav Landau Horav Landau, Rav Elyoshiv son in law R'Chaim Kanievsky you won't even mention by name....
Nu, nu, eech zei az dee beest an echt Chabsker talmid!
Eech veentsch dech oon kinder vous vellen gayen een Satmar een in Ponovizh!
(I wonder what would happen if I dared call the Rebbe Schneersohn.You guys demand respect, but will not even give basic human decency back!)

מול העינם said...

Yumi,
Regarding your comment on the level of religious obsevance in the דתי לאומי world, I don't consider it relevant for 2 reasons:
1. It varies alot more than you give it credit for, (there are literally thousands of Bnei Torah, for example), but no group or subgoup is anti-Lubavitch
2. I wan't referring to the popluce I was talking about the Gedolim amogst them first and foremost Rav Shapira, and Rav Eliyahu YB"LC, who had a warm relationship with Lubavitch. Same thing with the Sephardi gedolim across the board.
Another matte, even though the Satmar Ruv was vehemently opposed to much of what the Rebbe did the level of mutual respect among these Rebbes was great, and the בזינות of the Rebbe that go on in Litvish circles don't go on in Satmar.
In other Rebbestives in the Satmar Hashkafa and orbit there is no anti-Lubavitch feeling whatsoever.
There was a Minkacher einikle with me in a very Litvish Yeshiva, who didn't understnad the anti-Lubavitch attitude at all.

Anonymous said...

"What would the ramifications be?"

That Chabad would drift away further from normalative Judaism. Rav Shach was clearly right, as it would've happened either way. There has been an effort to be mekarev Chabad since '50, that obviously got no where. Most sects and groups although radically different from each other in Europe, saw eye to eye post war, with one big exception.

Anonymous said...

r'ruderman was a son-law of r'sheftel kramer r"h of the new haven yeshiva which had moved to cleveland. rr left to baltimore and asked for 4 talmidim to assist him.

Feivel ben Mishael said...

Oh right because excommunicating people who disagree with you normally would draw them back into your fold... Chabad being the exception haha.
They didn't excommunicate Chabad because they knew that doing so would cause people to drop out of the misnagdesher velt in droves and become Chassidim.


"Most sects and groups although radically different from each other in Europe, saw eye to eye post war, with one big exception."

This statement is so ambiguous that it is laughable. Empty rhetoric.

The litvisher groups... well they haven't been supportive of Chassidus from the beginning... so their opinion doesn't count either way.

שמואל הכהן ווייס, ב"פ said...

Does anyone here really think that a GIANT like the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who "shukkeled" the whole world, needed to care what nice people like R Ruderman and R Kaminecki thought of him?!

This is an utter joke!

These Moetzes people - most of them - thought somebody cared what they said. They did nothing and accomplished nothing. At least the back office people in the Agudah got some things done, influenced legislation and so on, but what did the Rabbis and Roshei Yeshivah do, and what were they there for bichlal? Just for show! to show the world that there was a Rabbinic authority.

OTOH, to say that the Lubavitcher Rebbe had to stop and think what a few people like R and K, gutte kep, but not much else, had to say about what he was doing is a JOKE!!!

Anonymous said...

Shmuel the boro parker
As I commented before even the "shiurim" of their gevaldige geonois is forgotten, and over and done with, maybe some family member will scratch some funds and print a volume or two it should be zecher, but it is not and will not be part of the Reid in Yeshivohs as Reb Dovid Povarsky and Reb Shmuel Razovsky. They are good fodder for the 15 minutes of chabad bashingand thats it.
,

Anonymous said...

Ner Isreal Moments,

I would like to know what Rav Ruderman and Rav Kammetzky were thinking, what was the next step that Shach could of taken against Chabad after the famous ranting in Binyonei Heoma in front of thousands of benai torah that Chabad Chasidim are Menasach Yayin.
So Ruderman held him back of saying Boalei Nidois,Mechalelie shabosim or chas vesholem "Non Sukah Sleepers"
Shach had no bullets in his aresenalanymore he tried with all his might to excomunicate chabad by pressuring the Hamodia not to have write ups on chabad, etc.. it all backfired in his face. You should have seen the Charadi coverage of Gimel Tamuz and then the Russian Shluchim Banquet it was wall to wall coverage that probably will sicken Chasidishe Yiden as our great poster Schneur, that is still rom the old Penimiyus chabad school. I think reb Yoel should serch him out for a good chasidishe biur in Likutie torah or Avodas Hatfilah.
Ruderman sitting in his room was feeling good that he has bichlal a vort to say in Klal Yisroel, sherer probably reminded him that he is the Reb Chaim Oizer of our genaration, and Ren Yakov was the Chofetz Chaim.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
The rebbe was called on this blog, the worst possible title by snags,
Dont tell where my kids should learn, Ich vinch for no Yidish kind ( even he comes from Yemen)to learn in Satmar unless he is ..., but it wouldnt bother me if my kids should hear shiurim from reb Berel Povarsky or Rav Liebowitz the geonim that are harrased on a daily basis by the Shach terror fringe, they remind me of the Meshichisten they dont want to face the fact that the Avi Ezri is dead.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Going thru your post I reliazed you always reply with total different nu snippets of you snag fed shtusim. In order you should be effective you have to be more consistent its Toani Bechitim...

Anonymous said...

Anon 9;06
"there has been an effort to be mekarev Chabad since '50,

Ha ha ha
you should leave that joke for after the 3 weeks

YUMY said...

"Yumy
Going thru your post I reliazed you always reply with total different nu snippets of you snag fed shtusim. In order you should be effective you have to be more consistent its Toani Bechitim..."

Look
I have no problem discussing anything with you, bitnai that you choose a name.

Kalmen said...

" Schach wanted to excommunicate them but that he and Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky had objected."

Now let's see....Rav Ruderman was niftar in mem zayin....what could chabad have been doing in mem zayin (even if the story occured as late as that) that was worthy of ches...no yellow flags, no yechei..very interesting.

No my friend, the reason he didn't try a stunt like that (if the story is true) is because the lev simcha and the klausenberger ruv, even in their advance age and weakened condition, would have squashed him like a bug!

I will state what has been repeated numerous times on this blog (and this post)...it's the oilam hayeshivos that is out of touch!

beis yisroel, Kl. Rebbe, lev simcha, pnei menachem, these are shkutzim (ch"v) by you? and we don't need great investigations to know what they held of the Rebbe.

And I know you fanatsize that Satmer stands with you, but the entire blowup satmer v. chabad was strictly Tzion'ye geshevten, excacerbated by the Vechter episode (with some politics/money in the mix)...it's over and done with. They would eat by a Chabad'nik in shteib (and use a Chabad mikvah) before they would by a Litvik.

As far as the Steipler, he got involved in this sticking up for his bil, but he was no kanoiy like his neighbors. VDA"L (just so Yumy (we know who you are) can feel at home!)

yumy said...

VDA"L (just so Yumy (we know who you are) can feel at home!)


So what that you know who I am?
'Chob dir farpakt

yumy said...

"They would eat by a Chabad'nik in shteib (and use a Chabad mikvah) before they would by a Litvik."
Kolmahn
But, you Lubab/Satmar geshtimt would not eat by the Satmar!
You guys assered if after all! Because of an old 30 year plus story.Hey, that's actually quite recent , cuz whenever you argue with a Lubab he brings up stories from 200 years ago.
Had a certain Choshuveh Satmar yingerman who was tragically murdered kept his distance from Lubab he would have been around today!

yumy said...

"No my friend, the reason he didn't try a stunt like that (if the story is true) is because the lev simcha and the klausenberger ruv, even in their advance age and weakened condition, would have squashed him like a bug!"

You are a very ignorant fellow.
Let me educate you a bit:Firstly the Klausenberger had quite a small oilem, and could not have squashed the huge oilom hayeshivos, even if had wanted to!
Secondly this whole notion that the Klausenberger had a close relationship with the Lubavitcher is a load of nonsense.Best proof is that they never had an official meeting (and probably never met ,at all)this when Klauseberger lived a couple of miles down the road in Willismsburg(obviously there was no hava amina that the Rebbe would leave Crown Heights.....)
Wulliger has promoted the version of this close relationship, and while he is a voyleh yid, when I asked him how come they never met he had no answer.

RE:Squashed by the Lev Simcha.Again you show zero havuneh.Ger had it's worst time under the Lev Simcha, he became REBBE WHEN HE WAS ELDERLY and had little koach to do anything besides get his chasidim to move out of town to affordable housing,.YThe Gerer were very happy to have nothing to do with Lubavitch all the years and Aguda never helped Lubavitch with any of their meshugassen (see their mihu yehudi stance etc).In fact there was a lot of anger that Lubavitch never joined the holy Aguda wars, like giyus bonos etc.
Degel Hatora did very well in an outright war with Aguda, uberoishom Ger.In fact today, Yankel Litzman, found himself without his prestigious job as head of the finance committee, and lost it to Degel Hatorah rep Gafni.

The new relationship of the Chasidshe world incuding Ger who had nothing to do with Lubavitch started in mem tess, after Degel was founded.Ger were prepared to shove Lubavitch in bod and the war between Ger and Lutvackes was not over Lubavitch.In the run up to the elections a smart Gerer chsid came up with the catchy slogan AND Lubavitch came out with full force to help Agudah and history was made!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Ooh, Ooh! tell us who Yumy is!

This guy is fighting Lubavitch on all fronts, the poor fella.

אזא טשולענט האב איך שוין לאנג נישט געזעהן

yumy said...

Guys
Can any real Lubab join this debate?
I'm getting tired of arguing with Satmar geshimt, gevorener Lubab.
Reminds when I went to listen to Ganz from Morristown, gimmel tammuz in BP and couldn't understand his "Turkish".He was tripping up all the time with his mammeh lushen Yiddish, and the Lubab jargon he picked up

yumy said...

אזא טשולענט האב איך שוין לאנג נישט געזעהן

You enjoying it?

yumy said...

Try and help me understand what part of the chulent gefelt dir nisht.

Why the Klausenberger never met up with the Rebbe?
Why Agudah all the years could care less about what somebody in Brooklyn was saying?
Nu, help me out here

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no
unlike some people I enjoy Cholent only on Shabbos afternoon, not from Wednesday morning on...

so, tell us Yumy, about yourself, why does Lubavitch irk you so much, eh?

yumy said...

Not everything about Lubavitch irks me, but a lot does.
For starters they demand respect for the self appointed Nosi Hador(yes,even 15 years after)but give none in return.
You can say, hey those are semantics,but no! It's much deeper than that.Lubavitch has gone out and wiped out thousands of years of Toireh and minhogei yisroel.
Today, you step into a Chabad shil and what do you see, heaps of Lekutei Sichos, all the hundreds of repetitive bender and little else! Dus heyst that a guy came along, appointed his schverr as nusi, took on the postion after the schvers passing and.......
Toireh chAdusha MEITI teitseh!!

(btw, I don't know if you noticed on a previous comment where someone noted that the Previous Rebbe had written some nasty things about yeshiva boys in Lita that shave, and I said I'm sure you know what I would have to say about it.Do you??)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Later. I gotta go earn some money.

we'll make a ליל ששי out of it, ok?

yumy said...

Lol.
Make mucho dinero.
If I'm on tis gonna be late

YGB said...

First of all, HT, I'm still waiting for you to come say hello. I live up the block from TT, 3 Zabriskie, and use the TT mikveh almost every Friday.

Not to argue with anything, just fill out some details. Rav Ruderman spoke about our Uncle Ezra (who learned in NI) several times with my brother. Among other things, he told my brother:

1. UE was an unusual Ba'al Kishron.
2. The Mashgiach, R' Dovid Kronglass, wanted to kick UE several times because UE would go up to NY for farbrengens, but R' Ruderman did not let RDK have his way.
3. That once some bachur(im) shaved off half of UE's beard (who did not shave off the other half, just waited for it to grow back), and that one of them died young, and that he (R' Ruderman) perceived that as an onesh for having participated in the misdeed.
4. I don't remember where I heard this, not from my brother, and you can spin it positively or negatively, but R' Ruderman ostensibly once said that the LR was on the same level in learning as Rav Kulefsky (the senior Rebbe, and later RY [after RSYW] in NI).
5. I don't remember the context, and it might have something to do with old Toronto politics, but my very distinct impression is that the Schochets had far more of an issue with RSYW than with his shverr.

Ner Israel Moments said...

The conversations cited L'Eil in Ner Israel Moments took place between the late 60's and the mid 70s.

Anonymous said...

What is all this big deal of the Rebbe not meeting the Klausenburger,
the Rebbe was not in the small talk business, and so was not the Klausenburger.
The rebbe never spoke just for the sake of keeping a conversation going, he was asking from every Jew layman to Rav Horoshi to go Mechail al chail in our service for Kidshou Berich Hi and Klal Yisroel, Obviously the Klausenburger was in good shape spiritualy and there isnt much that he needed him to do.He liked the idea of the hospital as he told his son the todays Rebbe of BP and was recgonizing him as a tzadik vekodosh, His Mechutan and closest talmid a great man on his own Reb Shmuel Ondsdorfer was talking from the Rebbe as a tzadik hador eventough he was from the school of sanz and Belz, but he saw beyond the colored bekiches he had a certain Chush to smell a real tzadik. Also his other son the Rebbe of Israel one of the biggest Rebbes there quoted twice the Rebbe in the torah (saw myself in the Monthly Sanz)

Anonymous said...

Yumy
please dont start denigrating every yid that respected the Rebbe just for stepping in to 770.
The Lev Simcha had a lot of strong years as Rebbe even he was old, and the Pnei Menachem (In my eyes he is considered as Tzadik vekodesh and baal moach from the Yechudie Segulah of the geanaration after the war) came to the Rebbe even before the Mem Tes Shach Jihad. You can hear in the tapes the bitul he had for the Rebbe, Obviously you little Neficha understand better to a Rebbe then a Rebbe ben Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Didnt chasidim and the Gra start with the "wiping out of Minhogim"
there are not to much Rebbes as the Rebbe that a geshmak in Minhogei yisroel as the Rebbe . He could give a biur in a minhag as important as a Biur in the sigya of Shlichus .By the Gra, minhogim were obsolete look in back of the Maseh Rav.

Anonymous said...

Yummy
I believe that if someone worries for the wellbeing of every jew on the globe he is entitled to the title "Nesi Dorani"

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Which sefer would you like to see in a chabad shul?
Noam Elimelech? Toldos ? the chabad chasidim admit that they dont undersdant this seforim they are himleshi Ried, they are wired that chassidus is made for the odum poshut to understand it. Reb elimelech is not less because of that.

Anonymous said...

Yummy
Hearing Gancz talking at a gimel tamuz farbrengen brings acrooss loud and clear the Rebbes call that chassidus is Lakol from Kremenchug/Nevel to Klienvardein/Bergcaz and that sickens the chabad enemies, and I love it.
Just look at a guy like Gancz,the transformation Chabad did on the guy from having a nice center with all kind of jews getting close to the oir hashem to being in yeshivah getting out his real kochas hanefesh, In Willi he would end up a Shloif rebbe by Yidel Rosenbergs camp with a chalat.

Anonymous said...

Is this the same RMS who is so silent regarding the terrible C'H riots in his own backyard?

Anonymous said...

I'd probbaly get a lot more out of this blog if the commenters wrote in normal English!

Anonymous said...

Rms didnt know the halachic view of the gedolim (gedolim that he appointed)if the Ch Jews are begeder yisroel, after he heard the pesak he immediatly intervened by the UN and there are no riots since then, thats a real shtadlan botul to dass torah.

Anonymous said...

At the risk of repeating something already written, ain hazm"g le'ayen and I'm too tired to scan, ayin besichas motzei shabbos chanuka (or motzei zos chanuka?) 5746 for the reason that RRuderman didn't stay in Lub..... veda"l
Y"T Sheini

yumy said...

"Yummy
I believe that if someone worries for the wellbeing of every jew on the globe he is entitled to the title "Nesi Dorani" "

Even after he goes on to oilom shekuloi toiv?
Nu,nu.....
Interesting till the Rebbe was mechadesh this new title "Nosi Doreinu" on Der Shver Jews had not used it since Reish Golusa days in Bovel.
Interesant...
Veli nireh, az ehr iz gevoren Nosi Hadoir vahl er iz enker rebbe, in in Chabad tzingt meh yedey eyner nuch tzi folgen "Minhogei Chabad"
Ubeemes der Rebbe aleyn hot shoin masber gevayn az CH"B"D, chchma bina vodaas iz doch hecher fin chesed, gevureh, tiferes, in Chabad in emes areyn zenen di kroyn fin aleh yidden, shteiyen hecher fin yeidem,oon Nosi Hadoir iz doch Moshiach shebedoir vechulu.
Kumt doch oys lichoireh az , alz sovev sviv hamesuvav.Uposhut farvus Chabad zenen mamshich vayter mit di modeneh reyd tzi taynen az chotsch s'iz schoin noch gimmel tammuz, oon dos bahlogeh yeseirah foon nont tzu a dor tzayt, ve'adayin Hanosi hu hakoil kipshutoi, uposhut vahl alleh Lubavitcher gloiben noch alz az ehr is der "Ish Tzemach" hu be'atzmoi, oon nosi shebador=moshiach shebadoir.Vein lhaarich bedvuem peshutim

Shaul S. said...

chchma bina vodaas iz doch hecher fin chesed, gevureh, tiferes, in Chabad

ahhhhh, so that's what's got your goat. No problem, walk the few blocks to beis rabeinu she Bi'BP, we'll get you set up with a Chavrusah and have you seeing 'straight' in no time at all.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Reb YGB

Bl"n this Shabbos, if that's OK with you, I'll stop by. I forgot that you commented here till now. I moderated this comment while on the road yesterday and forgot to come back to it till now. I thank you for sharing the wonderful anecdotes with the readers here.

Please let me know if Shabbos afternoon is OK.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

RYGB

I think it had to do with the fact that RSYW was such a big chossid of the Avi Ezri....

Historical Stickler said...

yumy, the last person to be called nasi doreinu (doyraynee wasn't invented yet) was Rabbeinu Gershom. The Reishei Galvasa were not called nasi (though they lived well before Rabbeinu Gershom and were malchus geshtimt) so as not to be confused with the nesiim of EY.

Ann 11:04, linguists are already noting the development of american yiddish. While most real yiddish speakers laugh at this, you still have to live with it.

YGB said...

B'kovod godol. I usually daven Mincha across the street at 6:00, before or after is fine.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ok, great

some cold watermelon would be nice....

just kidding

yumy said...

"The Reishei Galvasa were not called nasi (though they lived well before Rabbeinu Gershom and were malchus geshtimt) so as not to be confused with the nesiim of EY."

"Reish Galvusa"?.Think not.Reish Galusa,no?
Anyway, Reish Galusa, means head of the Jews, same idea that the Rebbe took for the schverr

yumy said...

"I think it had to do with the fact that RSYW was such a big chossid of the Avi Ezri."


Interesant to analyze your logic here:A family member that knows them says his opinion, you, who did not know any of the players, makes up your own "pshetel"
You also show that you don't get human nature.Most machlikesen are not "far Gots veygen".It makes a lot of sense that living in the same town, with competition on the same turf, that someone stepped on someone else' s toes.Do I know that??No, but it makes a lot sense.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so you're accusing the gretest Gedolim of our time of having personal negios?

tsk, tsk

yumy said...

R'Yosef Gavriel,
Where did Uncle Dovid and Uncle Immanuel learn?
Why was Uncle Ezra sent to Litvishe yeshivos Ner,Brisk,Lakewood?

yumy said...

"so you're accusing the gretest Gedolim of our time of having personal negios?"

No, I'm not.
I said MOST.
Not all.
Go find out why you had massive machloikes in Poland between chasidic groups.Fights over shtellas, which ultimately meant more power and zlotys for the winning chasides.
Everybody has negios btw.
Didn't you lean last weeks Rashi about Moshe Rabbeinu wanting his son to take over?
The greatness of a person is measured by his ability to negate his negios as much as humanely possible."Shoichad yevaver eynei chachmim"

Anonymous said...

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=4530#comments

Litvish Yeshiva Honors Lubav

yumy said...

Very good article.
Hirschel, how good is your Hebrew?



http://www.techelet.org.il/article.php?id=448

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

my Hebrew is just fine

but should you be basing your opinions on these people?

yumy said...

Did you read it?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

skimmed, not every word

but still...

YUMY said...

When did you skim it, now?
Pretty fast if you did.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm a fast reader. Really.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I also write, think, and type fast.
just look at the news post.

yumy said...

This is an objective article by an Israeli academic who has an advanced academic degree in comparative religion.He is not frum,at least so I believe,but is a believer in God.
He writes quite positively about the Rebbe and basically proves that the Rebbe himself believed he was the chosen Moshiach shebedor.Using the first maamor "Bosi Legani" and his understanding of the redemptive process of the seventh leader(Nosi) being the redeemer, not based on their own merit in fact, but on the fact that by the Aybeeshter "kol hashviin chavivin"That is why Moshe Rabbeinu the seventh tzadik was the first readeamer etc Veayen shom.
All he writes in explaining how the "Rebbe as Moshiach" is clearly explained and backed up with notes from Chabad sources.Leaniyus dayti Most Lubavitchers would agree with his explanations.As I noted he is an objective writer/researcher.This is an academic piece

I was mechaven to him when in an earlier comment I put forth the reason according to my havuneh why Lubavitcher(the normal ones,even) cannot give up the idea of the Rebbe being Nosi Hador, even though he A)Technically cannot be (after his passing)B)Even when has here, the title was seen as bombastic,unheard of, so it needed a bit of courage to scream it off the rooftops.(as an aside can anyone tell me when the Nosi hador term for the Rebbe became popularized?)Basically since the Rebbe is seventh he has to be moshiach, and since the Rebbe said Nosi shbador hu Moshiach, they cannot let it go.
At the end of the article he voices something that many have worried about,myself included.
I'm going to paste that in the next post

yumy said...

המשיחיות המופגנת, הבוטה, של חב"ד מסמנת אותה כפלג יוצא דופן בנופה של היהדות בימינו, ויש, כאמור, אף כאלה הטוענים כי היא מוציאה את חבריה של החסידות הזאת מתוך הכלל היהודי. פטירתו של הרבי מליובאוויטש, וסירובם של חסידיו לזנוח את הציפיות שתלו בו ולבחור אדמו"ר חדש,101 העמיקו מאוד את השבר: הרעיון של משיח מת הקם לתחייה הרי אומץ על ידי דת שעמה מתנצחת היהדות זה אלפיים שנים. האם תלך חב"ד בדרכיה, ותתנתק מן האילן היהודי שממנו צמחה והסתעפה?
בעת הזאת קשה להעריך אם קולות התבונה ויישוב הדעת, הטבועים עמוק במורשת החב"דית (ששמה מורכב מראשי התיבות חכמה, בינה, דעת), יצליחו לגבור על קריאות "יחי אדוננו" הבוקעות מגרונותיהם של החסידים שהיצר המשיחי גבר עליהם. כיוון שאלה האחרונים קולניים ובעיקר פעלתניים הרבה יותר, ייתכן מאוד שדמותה העתידית של חב"ד תעוצב בצלמם ובדמותם. אם ימאנו להקשיב לאחיהם, הקוראים להם להכיר במציאות, עלול עם ישראל לאבד את אחת התנועות המפוארות שקמו לו בעת המודרנית; וכל יהודי - יהא זה חסיד או מתנגד, דתי או חילוני - צריך לקוות ולהתפלל שלא כך יקרה.

yumy said...

"I also write, think, and type fast.
just look at the news post."

Sometimes I wish I was a fast reader.If someone can read fast and comprehend they have hit the jackpot.
I can't.I was "screwed" over by the Lutvishe yeshivas I attended.I have to understand something and analyze i, not "bebeh".One of the reasons Lubab don't get on with me

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why we need this in a post about RJIR and RLG is beyond me, especially since you placed the link here already, but I guess you know better

[rolling eyes]

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Please don't confuse lack of faculties with the need to analyze...

yumy said...

Hirshel,
You know full well that threads develop,even to include invitations for "shaleshidess"(shah!! don't say shalesheeses in a Lubab blog!)and cold watermelon.
The reason I added the last part after posting the link is that many people will not bother to read an article and would like a synopsis.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

1) the conversation was at least about NIRC

2) It's not shaleshides, since it won't be after Mincha...

and besides, we eat, we just don't wash

yumy said...

Serious question,
Try and be honest, if you can.
Do you like posters who agree with you, never challenge (i.e your average Lubab)or guys who debate, give you a hard time,analyze (maybe for lack of faculties)and question.

Does it depend on your levels of "hiskashres"at the time i.e more "hiskashres" less challenge..

YGB said...

R'Yosef Gavriel,Where did UncleDovid and Uncle Immanuel learn?
Why was Uncle Ezra sent to Litvishe yeshivos Ner,Brisk,Lakewood?


IIRC, Uncles Dovid and Immanuel went straight to Chabad (albeit remaining clean-shaven for a while). [UD I am actually not sure about.] My grandfather, again IIRC, was not satisfied with the level of learning in Chabad, so he sent Uncle Ezra and Uncle Elisha first to Baltimore. Evidently Uncle Ezra was less devoted to Chabad than Uncle Elisha, as the latter made his way to Chabad relatively early.

(It is also important to point out that Uncles Immanuel and Ezra married "out" - Uncle Immanuel's BIL, R' Elzas, is one of the major standard bearers in Bnei Brak, and Uncle Ezra's wife is a grandaughter of one of the Slonimer Rebbes - a Weinberg, perhaps ironically enough. Of course, the older Schochet girls - my mother, Aunt Ruth and Aunt Batya also married out. By the time we get to the youngest Schochets - Aunt Amina and Uncle Obie - there would have been no hava aminas.)

An unrelated piquant point: My grandfather davened Ashkenaz until 1963, when he switched to Ari. But even when he switched, he told Uncle Immanuel that is was only because he had come to believe that Ari was a more precise nusach than Ashkenaz, not on account of Chabad!

yumy said...

"(albeit remaining clean-shaven for a while)"
If they were at the stage of shaving, than they were teenagers.Where were they till then?
When did your grandfather arrive in Canada? Uncle Imannuel has quite a European accent.

"My grandfather davened Ashkenaz until 1963, when he switched to Ari. But even when he switched, he told Uncle Immanuel that is was only because he had come to believe that Ari was a more precise nusach than Ashkenaz, not on account of Chabad!"

Not to pick any bones with you R'Yosef, but obviously after joining Chabad he was not exactly impartial about which nusach was more precise, ummemeilah sounds more like apologetics.

Lastly thanks for answering my questions.

Daniel Eidensohn said...

Since the owner of the Blog is a lover of peace and truth - and obviously has no desire to slander gedolim - Please remove the lies about HaRav Sternbuch, shlita.

I showed him what you said. He simple said the story was sheker.

If you don't believe my testimony you can call him yourself 651 9610 in Jerusalem.

BTW contrary to what one of your commentators claimed, Rav Sternbuch has condemned the violent riots in Jerusalem. In fact he is the only gadol who has publicly denounced them.

His letter can be found on my blog
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/07/rav-sternbuchs-letter-regarding-riots.html

Or the major frum news sites.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

excuse me, Rabbi Eidenson;

I spoke to someone who was there בשעת מעשה and he told me people that I can call and verify the story with. So you'll have to be more specific here. Did:

1) Rabbi Sternbuch never visit Gateshead Yeshivah?

2) Did he never ask to give a shiur?

3) Was he never refused that opportunity?

4) Did he never say "Pariser Student?"

5) did RLG never turn his back on him after he said that?

6) Did he never say those words about the world being a better place had they listened to the Rebbe?

Please be specific

I imagine RMS probably has more important things on his mind than a story in GH years ago. I'm sure he doesn't remember....

YGB said...

First of all, it was a pleasure to meet and spend some time with HT this past Shabbos. And I served watermelon. :-)

As to Yumy's points:

"(albeit remaining clean-shaven for a while)"
If they were at the stage of shaving, than they were teenagers.Where were they till then?


I believe they were local - Eitz Chayim and/or whatever local Mesivta existed at the time. Uncle's I's email is ISCHOCHET@aol.com, if someone care enough to find out exactly. (I know that's unlikely - obviously I don't care that much, or I'd write myself!) It is interesting to note that Uncle I begins the intro to "Mystical Concepts in Chassidism" and IIRC the intro to "Tzavo'as HaRivash" as well, with quotes from R' Yosef Leib Bloch.

When did your grandfather arrive in Canada? Uncle Imannuel has quite a European accent.

IIRC, '52. All the children were born in Europe - through '46 in Switzerland (including Uncle I) and subsequently in Holland.

BTW, once we're discussing Uncle I, he did not want to go to college, but my grandparents insisted (although Uncle I is loathe to concede the point to me, I believe my grandfather was an admirer of TIDE, and himself attended, b'reshus his Rebbe, University - in Leipzig IIRC). The Rebbe told Uncle I to go.

"My grandfather davened Ashkenaz until 1963, when he switched to Ari. But even when he switched, he told Uncle Immanuel that is was only because he had come to believe that Ari was a more precise nusach than Ashkenaz, not on account of Chabad!"

Not to pick any bones with you R'Yosef, but obviously after joining Chabad he was not exactly impartial about which nusach was more precise, ummemeilah sounds more like apologetics.


For sure apologetics! The point is more that he felt uneasy enough that he resorted to apologetics!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The pleasure was mutual, Reb YGB.

By the way, what kind of watermelon was that? Is that the Japanese square ones? The rind was very thin, and the color more pink than red.

yumy said...

R'Yosef Gavriel,
I'm astounded by your honesty!

"For sure apologetics! The point is more that he felt uneasy enough that he resorted to apologetics!"


So...
Can you tell us how your grandfather was saved from the Holocaust?
I understand that they were in Switzerland.How did they get there?
After the War,I guess your grandfather got a shtelleh in Holland?
What did your grandfather do in Toronto and when did he pass away?

Last but not least!
How did your grandfather become Lubavitch?
I've read a story about a young daughter falling into a pot of boiling water and the Rebbe gave a berocha??

Arnon said...

Re Lev Simchah: Yes he was elderly when appointed, and perhaps many thought it would be a short transiion Rebbe. Ye he was nassi for over a decade and conducted his nesius beyad romoh and yad chazokoh, much tougher and steadfast vis a vis the Litvaks and others than any other Gerrer Rebbe.

Re R. Shochet Sr, I don't know whether it was apologetics. Fact is he did eventually wear kappote and gartel, learned chitas and sichos regularly etc. As for "more precise than Nusach Ashkenaz" - what is NA? There are over a dozen varying nuscho'os Ashkenaz, each with a lot of problems re accuracy, and Nusach Ar-Chabad is indeed the most precise. Interestingly enough, nusach of Besht, discovered in MS of RS of Roshkov, is extrememly close to it.

yumy said...

"There are over a dozen varying nuscho'os Ashkenaz, each with a lot of problems re accuracy, and Nusach Ar-Chabad is indeed the most precise."

Arnon, my friend,
Do think I''ll "just take the word" of an anonymous poster on what nusach is more "precise"?
I don't know what you mean "by over a dozen varying nuscho'os ov Ashkenaz".What I do know is that all the Ashkenazic rishoinim,down through Rabbeinu Moshe Isserlis, the Ram'o ,the greatest halachik decisor of Ashkenazic Jewry, davened Nusach Ashkenaz.You want to daven Nusach Ari? Gezunterheit!
Btw, Nusach Sefard,Nusach Ari are all variations of the Ashkenaz custom.I feel very comfortable davening the nusach that my father and his forefathers have davened for many generations.Thankfully I am in very good company.Lastly there is a rule that "kol hameshaneh yodo al hatachtoino".Gedoley yisroel from the chasidim saw fit to make some changes to the basic nusach Ashkenaz,I'm not for a second questioning whether they were right, all I'm saying is that if one davens nusach Ashkenaz without the nusach Sefard variations they are in the good company of gedoiley yisroel throughout the generations.It's interesting to not that some rebbes davend Ashkenaz.Also the renowned posek R'Moshe Bik, who came from a long line of rabbonim in the town of Meziboozh,residence of the Baal Shem Tov davened like his anscestors nusach Ashkenaz!

Arnon said...

Yumi: If you compare the varying sidurim of nusach Ashkenaz, especially over the past 400 years (as I have done), you wil find many variations between them. Every so often another printer came along and changed things (mossif, gore'a etc.) according to difering opinions re correct nussach itself (ususally based on the varying nus'cho'os of sidurim of geonim and rishonim) or re dikduk-rules etc. to the point of some identified with certain specific kehilos (e.g. Frankfurt etc.)

In *this context* the nusach of the Rav (Ari-Chabad) is indeed the most precise. And let's face it, it is not only chassidim who changed nussach, so did the Gro and various other gedolim who decided that certain changes are more appropriate in context of halachic sources. The same applies to Nussach Sefarad, as well as to Nussach Ari of which, too, there are variations. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone following mesoras avoseinu beyodeinu - they surely have something concrete to rely on. Halachic questions arise in context of changing nussach (and that applies also to change from one Ashkenaz to another - e.g. the new fad in litivishe yeshivos to adopt nussach Hagra which was not accepted even in Vilna itself, never mind Lithuania as a whole). There are a whole host of teshuvos on that (Chasam Sofer, Divrei Chayim, Maharam Shik, Minchas Elozor etc.). Chasam Sofer, in spite ofhis teshuvah, privately davened Nusach Ari, though publicly Ashkenaz. Etc. etc.

After all that, there is obviously *no doubt whatsoever* about the holiness etc. of NA and all those that follow it. I spoke in "historical context" only (aliba deshmaitassa).

Michoel said...

Reb Yakov was known to tell people that Nusach Ari was the most accurate. He was no Chabadster.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Michoel: I know somebody who he told that to, but he said that Munkacz Ari is the most accurate form of Ari.

yumy said...

"Chasam Sofer, in spite ofhis teshuvah, privately davened Nusach Ari, though publicly Ashkenaz. Etc. etc."

Arnon,
My friend we are not on the same page.Totally not.You again, somehow believe, after I thought I was clear that I'm not a Lubavitch drone who is into believing anonymous posters who have a clear bias.
Chasam Sofer in famous teshuva made it very clear that one should not change from nusach Ashkenaz!Now you want me to believe that privately, he followed your nusach!You are funny you know.Chances are that the Chasam Sofer was not EVEN familiar with this nusach, which was quite geographically far from where he was based.I don't know if he was familiar with Sefer Hatanya, and generally was no fan of chasidim.So please!
Even his Rebbeim R'Nosson Adler and the Haflo'oh did not daven Nusach Chabad al pi Ari! I actually think that R'Nosson Adler followed Sephardic rites in his own private minyan.
The Ariza''l himself probably followed Sephardic rites, too.
"Al pi nusach Ari" really means following his kabbalistic "kavvanot"

Arnon said...

Yumi "My friend we are not on the same page."

Obviously not. You may not be a L. drone but drone nonetheless. Had you ever read the Chasam Sofer's biography, and especially the Igros Soferim, you would have known what I wrote. Of course he did not daven the Rav's nusach, but nussac Ari nonetheless. Check the sources before you comment.

Arnon said...

"Al pi nusach Ari" really means following his kabbalistic "kavvanot" -Yumi

Wrong again. The Arizal made a new nussach, called Sha'ar Hakolel, that would be suitable for everyone - esp. as nowadays we do not know the individual nuschaos of each shevet - which in terms of order is more akin to nussach sefarad but much less so in terms of actual nussach (i.e. wording). This is stated explicitly by his major disciple R. Chaim Vital in Peri Eitz Chayim. Again, please check your sources before commenting.

yumy said...

Arnon,
Quote chapter and verse where the Chasam Sofer did not daven nusach Ashkenaz privately.
Arnon,
Nusach Chabad as far as I know is "al pi nusach ari" and not what he actually davened.If it was you would not need The Baal Hatanya to compile a nusach.
Additionally, iirc the various poskim who discuss changing a nusach discuss if he was Sephardi or Ashenazi the nafka mina being if an Ashenazi can change to Sephardi rites, like the Arizal davened.
So yes, I don't know Pri Etz Chaim (and I doubt you do, to be honest).
Also, if I'm not mistaken one is allowed to add to the berocha as long as the beginning and end are "matbeiah shtovu chachamim.

yumy said...

from th Shut Chasm Sofer Shulchan Aruch,
Aruch Chaim, Siman 15. I'll try to free translate the pertinent points:

When the Ari came along he analyzed and examined and revealed
the greatness of the Nusach of the Sfardim because he himself
was a Sfardi. And if he would have been an Ashkenazi or there
could be found an Ashkenazi, a man such as the Ari, the same
could have been done foe the Ashkenazi siddur. But, we don't
have anyone who could extract the same type of greatness from
the Nusach of the Ashkenazim so it is best for them (the
Sfardim) to daven from a siddur of the Sfardim. The Chasam
Sofer's Rebbi R. Nosson Adler and The Baal Haflaah changed their
nusachos and Davened according to the Nusach of the Ari (because
of their better understanding of Tefilah thru the Ari's
interpretations). But ther rest of the minyan davened Nusach
Ashkenaz as did the son of the Haflaah, the Baal Machne Levi.
They did not change their Nusach From nusach Ashkenaz. When
the Machne Levi's father died he close down that shul and
davened in the shul of Frankfurt Am Mein. And this is a well
know and widely known thing, that any one who doesn't have any
knowledgeability (on the level of the Ari), cannot change our
Nusach, as was decereed by the Magen Avraham 266, 8. and so as
well, wrote the Ari, explicitly. So it comes out from what we
just mentioned that those who daven in sfardit likely do so
through the Secrets of G-d and enter in quietly into that level
and they know that what they are saying and they do beautifully.

I apoplogize for the awkwardness of my translation but so it is, as I do
it on the fly. But it seems to me from the above that:

1. Nusach Sfard is not what the Ari wrote.
2. R. Nosson Adler and the Haflah davened the Nusach of the Sfardim as
interpreted by the Ari (not Nusach Sfard as we know it).
3. Only the They davened this Sfardi Nusach while the rest of the Kahal
davened nusach Ashkenaz.
4. The Haflah's son davened Nusach Ashkenaz.
5. The Magen Avraham paskin's that we cannot change our Nusach.
6. The Ari himself agrees that we cannot change our Nusach.

HM

Anonymous said...

Yumy
"Also the renowned posek R'Moshe Bik, who came from a long line of rabbonim in the town of Meziboozh,residence of the Baal Shem Tov davened like his anscestors nusach Ashkenaz!"
I forgot the source at the moment
but th Bick family were considerd Misnagdim to Chasidim in the town of Miziboozh, eventough the claim to Shtam from the Emdens son that was a chosid, the famiy now deny the above, since they like the shiduchim with colorfull bekiche crowd, but it is documented,

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Interesting till the Rebbe was mechadesh this new title "Nosi Doreinu" on Der Shver Jews had not used it since Reish Golusa days in Bovel."

"

Have you ever seen the Tomb stone on the Maran of Benai Berak ?or the baal Veyoel Moshe head stone in KJ ?its has more times Rabon Shel Kol ... then Kapital 119 has words, they title Nosi Hador irks you because you are a avid sonei yisroel.
you are a fanatic chabad basher, chabad survived shach and they will defininitly survive you.

Anonymous said...

Yumy

"Even his Rebbeim R'Nosson Adler and the Haflo'oh did not daven Nusach Chabad al pi Ari!"
your chabad sina takes you off your mind, was nussach Chabad printed in their times, what are you talking about,
"

Anonymous said...

In one of Reb chaim Kanievsky soft cover seforim from on of the inner circle, they write that Reb Chaim said that his father davened the AR nussach (tehilas hashem?)

The AR doesnt nned the Stieplers hashkoma it is just that he had some self respect so he davened in a original sidur that was put out by one of the greatest poskim of the last doirois, and not a nussach of some siddur of a shochet in Ukraine, or the Tefilas Rav of Bobov,or Belz that some shnooks put out. Yumy you can keep on davening your nussach and be proud to be ignorant

yumy said...

"they title Nosi Hador irks you because you are a avid sonei yisroel.
you are a fanatic chabad basher, chabad survived shach and they will defininitly survive you."

Anon 503pm,
You are starting to sound like a sick monster.
Ad kan.

yumy said...

"your chabad sina takes you off your mind, was nussach Chabad printed in their times, what are you talking about,"

That was my point,Einstein.

yumy said...

"Yumy you can keep on davening your nussach and be proud to be ignorant"

Someone who davens Nusach Ashekenaz is ignorant??

You have shown yourself to be a very nasty person, but know you don't even make sense......

yumy said...

"The AR doesnt nned the Stieplers hashkoma it is just that he had some self respect so he davened in a original sidur that was put out by one of the greatest poskim of the last doirois, and not a nussach of some siddur of a shochet in Ukraine, "

Nusach Ashkenaz was put out by some shoichet in Ukraine??


Seems you don't like nusach Sefard either based on this "pearl of wisdom": "Tefilas Rav of Bobov,or Belz that some shnooks put out"

Hirshel,
Someone is trying to make Lubavitchers look nasty,ignorant and childish!
Listen R'Hirshel, I'm up to a debate, but it has to be fair,I'm being set up here with a bigoted fool who makes Lubavitch look terrible

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Rav Yehuda Lieb Landsberg writes in his book Aile Toldois(biography of the Chasam Sofer)printed in the Pressburgh newspaper Hayhudi(1875)that the chasam sofer davened in a "Sidur Ari Hachai" it is reprinted in your Sonai Yisroel comrade Her Hamburghers book, Zichronois Umesorois Page 129,
if the illfamed Hamburger didnt put no comments on the bottom then I believe it is rocksolid info.Since its base everything on his father thet was atalmid. So please dont throw facts just for the sake of your chabad bashing.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yumy

1) nobody said you're ignorant BECAUSE you daven Ashkenaz. They said ignorant, yes, but not because of that.

2) he never said Nusach Ashk. was created by a Shochet in Ukraine; he was referring some of the other Chassidishe Nuscho'os

Anonymous said...

Yumy
Einstien,
I was saying that the Chassidic Nussach had no father bichlal till the AR, it was davened by chasidim but who worked on it? who claimed what is counted in and what is out, the Munkatcher discuuses it at length in the Chamishe Mamorim now beautifully reprinted bu Munkatch BP, he has his own conclusion but the problem is brought up.
Nussach ashkenaz had his problems too, but it was addressed by many gedolim thru a span of 100's of years, but the Chasidic nusach was in its infancy.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
why do get the name Monster? because I am shutting up some Psuedo Ignoramus?

yumy said...

"Sonai Yisroel comrade Her Hamburghers book, Zichronois Umesorois Page 129"

Where did you learn to speak this way?


Leinyonienu,I have never heard this before.It is not impossible.I will try and research it.

yumy said...

"2) he never said Nusach Ashk. was created by a Shochet in Ukraine; he was referring some of the other Chassidishe Nuscho'os"

So he was "just" badmouthing some other rov?


No nuscho'os were put out by simple people.There is some very basic respect expected.
Mayleh, this Anon, who is nisht mit alemehn, but that you should agree is disappointing

yumy said...

Yumy
why do get the name Monster? because I am shutting up some Psuedo Ignoramus?


No
Because of this
"they title Nosi Hador irks you because you are a avid sonei yisroel.
you are a fanatic chabad basher, chabad survived shach and they will defininitly survive you."

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I never agreed, and he doesn't mean davka a shochet, he means it was the Gaon haDoros the Alter Rebbe, veDal.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
One of my Rebbes in Sinas yisroel is yours truly

Anonymous said...

Yumy
The Shochet of Ukraine term was roughly used by the Munkatcher in the above mamar,
Hirhel please don't fall in his trap, that he will teach any of us Menchlichkiet.
If Yumy will start doing some reading instead of taking care of the lubavicher am haretzim we will all have nachas.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

who's the shochet that the Minchas E is talking about?

which nusach did he compile?

YUMY said...

"The Shochet of Ukraine term was roughly used by the Munkatcher in the above mamar,"

So now you are badmouthing the ME???
I see.
So when it's kedai you preach Ahavas yisroel and when it's kedai, you preach Munkatcher kano'us?
Pseach al shnei hasei'fim?

yumy said...

"I never agreed, and he doesn't mean davka a shochet, he means it was the Gaon haDoros the Alter Rebbe, veDal."

He did not.
He meant it as an insult

Anonymous said...

Yumy
"kol hameshaneh yodo al hatachtoino".Gedoley yisroel from the chasidim saw fit to make some changes to the basic"
This whole concept that chasidim changed minhogim is a blood lible, that was smeared by the early year misnagdim. If you read the books of Her Hamburger that is obssesed to keep the German Jewish Customs "Rien" you will conclude that all the minhogim were transformed, the Remo in Poland didnt keep the purity of the german Minhag ,Hamburger doesnt like it,
even the Avi Haminhogim the Chasam Sofer changed Minhogim when he felt so, He didnt Sing Sholem Alachem didnt say the Piutim in Middle of the Chazoras Hashatz etc.. He fought strongly when he saw a minhag changed by maskilim as the Guplech by the Burial etc..

yumy said...

Just to reiterate what I said about nusach hatefila.
I am proud to use the nusach that was universal amongst Ashkenazic Jewry for hundreds of years or more.Used by all the kedoshim vetehorim uberoishom Rabbeinu Moshe Isserlish the Ramo.
If someone davens another nusach instituted by gedoley torah it's fine too.
The bottom line in my honest opinion is that it is of no major signifigance, especially in a dor yosom, uvilvad sheyechaven liboi lashomayim.
I personally follow the nusach of the shil I happen to be in,Sefard,Sephardic,Nusach Ari.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Amongst his attacks on chasidic sidurim He talks of the sidur Bies Yakov (Emden)in the Segardic nusach, published by a shochet , in his colorful style he critics it.

yumy said...

"This whole concept that chasidim changed minhogim is a blood lible"

What??
You yourself admit that many chasidim changed the nusach from Ashkenaz to a newly formated "Sefarad".Newly formated means that it was a nusach that did not exist till that time.There were Nusach Ashekenaz and Sephardim, very different.Nusach Sefard kept to the basic Ashkenaz but borrowed certain elements from the Sephardy rites.

Bkitser, they DID change!

yumy said...

Anybody attacked by the ME is in good company.

yumy said...

Nameless Anon,
It's quite obvious that you are Gevorener Lubavitcher who took minhugei "beis abba" and threw them out of the window.
Some people respect their minhogei ovos especially if they had the backing of rabbonim asher mipihem onu choyim.
I would feel honored to be included in that group.
I'm sorry that you feel so badly about your minhogei bais abbo and take your frustartion out on R'Hamburger who does respect his rich heritage

Anonymous said...

I shtam from a family that were Gedolai Olem wrote seforim that is being used by Klal yisroel and they learned by Gedolai olum, and they changed to chassidic minhogim, as I told you before the CS changed minhogim when needed and so is the way of Klal Yisroel.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
" don't know if he was familiar with Sefer Hatanya, and generally was no fan of chasidim.So please"

Please do your homework when you discuss the CS and chasidim,
he qoutes the sefer
Likutie Amorim in his sefer al hatora parshes Behaloscho, and Reb Yosef Naftoli Stern(no chosid and particular non chabad chosid) writes in the footnote that he means Tanya, so please know your acts before you go on your anti chabad tirade you make the snags look bad.

Arnon said...

Yumi: a) Indeed CS did not follow the full text of Nusach Ari in private, but adopted from it several points, e.g morid hatal in summer, sim sholom for Minchah etc. See Hanhogos haCS [printed in many places, including Katz’s biography. I lent my Igros Soferim and Chut Hameshulash to someone so don’t have it handy now to give page numbers. (b) Arizal now generally accepted to have been Ashkenazi, as noted by Chido, R. Chaim Palagi in Lev Chayim etc. See discussion in Sdei Chemed, Klolei Haposkim 15:10 (noting that while the sefardim recognize this as a fact it’s the Ashkenazim who think he was a sefardi…obviously for apologetic reasons...). See also Sidur Hageonim Vehamekubalim, vol. 1, Mamar sheni, at length re this and nusach. (c) You cited one teshuvah of CS, leaving out the others (nos. 15-17 and see also 167). (d) You put in nonsensical editorial comment in your citation, i.e., that RNAdler and the Haflooh (both of who davened Nusach Sefarad-Ari even as shlichei tzibur while their minyan davened ashkenaz) did so because of “better understanding of tefilah through Ari’s interpretation.’ RNA did so because he was certain that the Sefardi nussach and havarah are more correct, and the Haflooh did so because it was emphasized by his Rebbe, the Maggid of Mesritch. (e) What’s with the HM (our ‘friend’ Harry M…) signature? (f) Re CS and Chassidus: his son R. Shimon of Cacow related that his father was ostensibly a ‘misnaged’ but personally “hoyo mehamechavevim derech hachasidus” [see Zichron LeMosheh (Toldos, uvdos vesichos haCS) by R. Yosef Schwartz, recent enlarged edition by Mader Rav, R. Elazar Ehrenreich of Kol Aryeh Institute, p. 152.] He quotes the Tanya by name in “CS al Hatorah”, and also cites from the Toldos and R. Levi Yitzchok of Berdichev (for extensive treatment of this subject see Sholom Chaim Porush’s article in Hamachaneh Hachareidi, Erev Sukos 5750 – Oct 12 ’89, p. 20-21).

Anon5 said...

Anecdote re R. Ruderman: at a meeting of Agudas Horabonim, RAK put a motion to put Lubavitch in ch.. because of the Reyatz's Moshiach-campaign in the 40s. RR asked him to withdraw it by saying "Reb Aaron, ihr vilt zei geben noch a yud-tes Kislev?" RAK smiled and withdrew his motion....

Anonymous said...

Anon5
At a a meeting in moshe sherrer office the moetzes were discussing to make a Yom tefila that all chabad chassidim should convert to buddhisim, and the Novominsker stopped it by claiming it will create havoc in Klal Yisroel and Reb Yitzchok Hutner smiled and said the Novominsker is a kluger yid,(told to me by one of the fuchthanlers)
Nice fiction of mines and so is your story, we both can sell it to the New Yorker Magazine they buy short fiction

Arnon said...

Since there is a lot of confusion re Nusach Ari among the commenters, I should clarify the following:
The Arizal did NOT compose a sidur! What we call nusach Arizal is to follow the specific instructions, guidelines and hanhogos of Arizal of what to say, what not to say, how to say etc. to be found in Peri Eitz Chayim and Sha'ar Hakavonos (these 2 seforim overlap throughout). In these seforim these all these instances (i.e. the whys and what-fors) are explained al pi kabboloh. On their basis a number of sidurim were composed to reflect these emendations altogether, or emend certain passages to reflect them. *Generally speaking* they are closer to traditional nusach sefarad (mostly in order), though closer to ashkenaz in wording itself. In some instances it conflicts with klolei hadikduk, but as every consonant and vowel also represents kabbalistic notions - the latter were regarded to take priority.

Anonymous said...

Arnon
Have you seen the 2 volumes Tefilas Chaim of Danial Rimer a Boyaner chosid in Beiter, 1 volume is only a historical overview on the sidur Arizal with some revolutinary ideas against the Alter Rebbe, the Munkatcher, It is worth reading,he claims that the nusach is all from a sidur that reb Chaim Vital wrote his footnotes on, also Rav Nuchem Grunwalds overview in the Hasidur (HM Monsey)conceptualizes brillantly and briefly the history of the Arizal Sidur.

Anonymous said...

Yumy/Hirshel
interesting to note that the Sigeter Rov A"h (later Satmaer Rov) showed the mentioning of Tanya in Chasam Sofer to the great poet of Debrecen R' Tzvi Meir Stienmetz, as you see below
"אל כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א

"מצורף-פה צילום של עמוד מחידושי החתם סופר על התורה בדיבור המתחיל 'והאספסוף' המצטט את ספר התניא…

"על עובדת הציטוט הנ"ל העירני הרב מסיגעט–סטמער שי', שביקרתי אצלו לפני שבועיים. אחרי הפסק של כמה שנים, חידשתי (להפצרת כמה מאנ"ש) קשר ידידות הנעורים עמו והבטחתי לו לספר על החתם-סופר הנ"ל לפני כ"ק אד"ש בשם אומרו".

he promised him he will show it the Rebbe

Hiskashrus (Tzach Israel)

yumy said...

"In some instances it conflicts with klolei hadikduk, but as every consonant and vowel also represents kabbalistic notions - the latter were regarded to take priority."

I'm not clear what this means? Are you saying that there would be no way to be mechaber a nusach that was both grammatically sound and kabbalistically sound?
Something does shtim here.
Also, what was R'Yosef Gavriel saying when his grandfather found nusach ari more "precise", did he mean it kabbalistically? Was he a mekubal?

aharon said...

for anyone out there:
my impression is that there was a point when there were chabad baalebatim who were cleanshaven.
1) how long was that socially accptable in chabad circles?
2)did they shave with electric shavers or depilitory?

YGB said...

It was a mini seedlees watermelon. I forget if it had a geographical name. Bought it at Pathmark.

Anonymous said...

Boy I can't understand what is so hard for everyone to digest here.

There is only one thing going on.

Chabad hasn't changed that much from Europe. They were poiresh Min haTzibur there and here as well.

When a group believes that it has the only Emes and the ONLY Rebbe etc...what do you expect. So it goes like this.

If you are very shtark about what you believe ...You are less likely to like Chabad.

if you are moderate you will be respectful of them even they have none for you except for your respect for Chabad.

If you are less stringh about what you believe then Chabad just seems like a great Chesed organization who does work so you don't have to, you become a supporter and the LOVE you because again you support Chabad.

Bottom line either you are with us or against us there is nothing but Toras Chabad.

poiresh in hatzibur that's the whole thing. Chabad does't play with others in the sandbox.

You ALL know that this is true. As great as many things they do the bottom line is that the whole thing is about who is in and who is not. SInce Chabad ignores everyone else except vocal supporters and calls them Misnagdim
we have disunity.

When the day comes that they take their place in the ranks of Klal Yisroel there will be peace regardless of what some in Chabad may or may not believe

BTW, I think Chabad does great things and their grestest enemy is themselves.

Mike said...

Good post, anon 8:40.
I agree that Lubavitch is it's own greatest enemy.
Please continue to comment, but remember to be very respectable.You are a voice of sanity and the blog owner does not particularly like that.He likes the critics to sound crazy so he can brush off critiscm as the rantings of lunatics.
Keep it cool, level headed, honest and we may be able to have some kind of back and forth