Wednesday, July 15, 2009

Study Notes

For your reading pleasure; Here are three pages from the sefer Migdal Or by Rav Itche Meir Schorr, son of Reb Gedalia, z"l. They're important to our conversation - ongoing and heated - about RGS's leaving Kleck for America despite his Rosh Yeshiva's opinion that no harm would befall the Jews of Europe. I see that some very subtle changes were made upon translation to English. See if you can find them...


Question: Why is the sefer called Or Gedalyahu and here it's "Gedalia?"



Thanks to Hashem for making our father not listen to his Rosh Yeshivah....


Reb Aron was in Druskenik, the letter arrived too late

71 comments:

farmhand said...

How come it doesn't say explicetly what the Gerrer said?

Anonymous said...

Was reb gedalia cosidering reb aron as his rebbe muvhak or reb shlome hieman?

Malcom X said...

Shortly after the FR wrote about Lithuanian Rabbis who teach unbefitting students- those who shave their beards- an emissary was sent by a certain world leader of Jewry to find out about the FR. The young man sent on a mission had one specific task; find out if he is capable of learning.

When he arrived, the FR was in middle of a sicha. He approached him afterwords and told him exactly what he was there for.

The FR decided that the best thing to do was to have him speak with his illustrious son-in-law. He spoke with him and arrived at his conclusion.

SDR said...

"He spoke with him and arrived at his conclusion...." and what was the conclusion?

Anonymous said...

Where do you get this sefer I thought it was Only for Famaily?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so? maybe I'm family! or maybe not...

Anonymous said...

""He spoke with him and arrived at his conclusion...." and what was the conclusion?"

That at least he knew how to chose an edim, and hide behind him.

yumy said...

"Shortly after the FR wrote about Lithuanian Rabbis who teach unbefitting students- those who shave their beards- an emissary was sent by a certain world leader of Jewry to find out about the FR. The young man sent on a mission had one specific task; find out if he is capable of learning."

Tzig,you probably know what I'm going to say about this don't you????

Anonymous said...

Since the Malach was sent away from chabad, it lost its focus on learning....

You draw your own conclusions whether he was right or not....

Anonymous said...

Impression,that in English went on boat before receiving response from rosh hayeshiva. loshon kodesh version appears that received response to stay before leaving.is the english the hamodia article?

Rabbi Lars Shalom said...

tha tlast one looks so sweet

AK said...

I have two questions on this whole story. Help me out.

1) If the letter arrived too late (according to the English version), how does the family have the letter?

2) I am sure that sometime between 1942 and 1962 Rav Gedalya Schorr had a chance to ask his Rebbe, Rav Aharon about the letter and the war. What did R' Aharon say?

feivel said...

"2) I am sure that sometime between 1942 and 1962 Rav Gedalya Schorr had a chance to ask his Rebbe, Rav Aharon about the letter and the war. What did R' Aharon say?"

Not sure of the first question, but could be that the letter was forwarded to America.Second question R'Aharon would have admitted to making a mistake.
R'Aharon as almost all of Polish Jewry had no idea at the time that there would be a holocaust.

voiceoftruth said...

Tzig- I'm surprised at your Gedalia-Gedalyahu confusion. The name is Gedalyahu, but when spelled in Lashon Kodesh, the last two letters are left off and replaced with a '-thingy.
The son seems to think that the letter came on time.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

According to the Hebrew, he didn't ask him, he told him he was leaving

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

voice

that's not so. The last two letters are usually NOT left off. a "thingy" would be for one letter

Most people are called Gedalia, not Gedalyohu

Binyomin said...

AK,
Read, the page Tzig posted.
The letter arrived to R'Gedalya and he chose not to listen!!!!!!
That answers the question!
Now the Tzig should ask Hamodia or R'Yitzchok meir why there was a different version in the Hamodia!
Reminds me of Lubab hagiography

yumy said...

"Most people are called Gedalia, not Gedalyohu"

It seems his real name was Gedalyohu, memeila muz mehn zugen that the shtreichel at the end is for TWO letters, not one.
Uposhut!

yumy said...

" I see that some very subtle changes were made upon translation to English."

Hirshel,
The Hamodia article claimed to be an interview.Are the subtle "changes" you mean about the letter actually arriving and R'Gedalya still leaving?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

keep looking, Yumy

yumy said...

Is this one of them?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, but there's more

yumy said...

Apparently R'Gedalya wrote the letter after he had decided to leave, cuz according to this page after the consul told him to leave he immediately sold everything and left and was not asking permission but telling R'Aharon he was leaving.
That what u mean?

Anonymous said...

I think that it's time for tzig to discuss the murder of Rav Schorr ZATZAL.

Anonymous said...

I once gave a ride, from lakewood to bp, to a kletker talmid of RAK. he spoke at great length about how he ended up with the mir, and escaped with them. upon his arrival to the US he went to visit RAK. The rebbetizin opened the door, upon seeing him she said "Zugt gornit vaygin der visas, Reb Aharon veynt vaigin deym yedder nacht" !!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Murder? what ever do you mean?!

yumy said...

What, you did know he was murdered by Snags????

Anonymous said...

What about the sending away of the Malach for telling the Rebbe Rashab Z'ya that his son was reading and being influenced by sifrei chutz....

The two outcomes were that once the Rebbe Rayatz got away from Europe he espoused his own opinions more freely, especially regarding Zionism and the role of learning in the new world.

Clearly the Malach saw decades before what would become of the new Chabad Rebbes and was thrown out for saying what no one wanted to hear....

Secondly, R' Gedalya Shor is clearly a non entity because he was not 'mekusher' to chabad. No one can really claim to be a chassidishe yid without an overt connection to nasi doreinu can they ???

anon3 said...

"Secondly, R' Gedalya Shor is clearly a non entity because he was not 'mekusher' to chabad. No one can really claim to be a chassidishe yid without an overt connection to nasi doreinu can they ???"
Are you for real with your above statement and all the other garbage and nonsense you posted? The question should be are you a"mekusher" to Chabad or stam a wacko?

Anonymous said...

I think R' Gedalya was an extremely complex person (in a positive way). He was certainly not the kanoi that some of his kids have become (e.g. R' Tzvi Meir Zilberbergs family, the Shlomo Frishvasser family etc...)

If I am not mistaken he did not shtam from a Gerrer family, so not sure why he would ask the Imrei Emes.

As everyone knows looking at the children / eidims is not a good indication of what the parent is like.

Can anyone tell me the story of why he took Shlomo Frishvasser as a eidim (assuming there were other shiduchim with money around...)???

RELATED said...

To whom it concern

what are you talking about Frishvasser Kanoim ????? They all live in London and have never bothered a fly ???

Specifically Reb Shloma happens to come from money He was a good Bochur in BMG, he is now a RAV, and a Rosh Yeshivah in London FYI.
He is osek on business on the side.
He is now the Sassover Rav In Golders Green. He is a talmid chochom of note in his own right.


As for the Silberbergs some are Kanoim, they are a big family.

Anonymous said...

Just to clarrify - R Shorr's sons were the Kanoim, not his eidimer. They do not seem to have the yishiv hadas he had.

He had a strong character and despite mixing with litvisher, he had a totally different derech to them.

By the way, is it true that Rav Wolfson was charged by R SFM to ensure that Torah Vdaas would not become litvish under R' Y Kamanetzki.

I heard that many did not want R' Yaakov in Tora Vdaas but he and his 'mentchen' fought very hard (unlike the image portraied by artscroll) and dirty tactics were employed to ensure he got a the 'plumb' job (despite his overtly anti-chassidish leanings).....rather than someone more suited to R SF Mendelovitch's vision.....

Anonymous said...

The Tzanzer Einiklach such as the Bobover Rebbe and others.....told people that the Ribbono Shel Olam took away the ability to answer what to do and other questions about the war and they openly told people they did not know what to do....rather than give people false hope and let them think everything would be o.k.

There was a gezeira and hashem closed many doors. It was definately not possible for everyone to leave even if they wanted to. America certainly didn't want millions of European jews flooding its borders.

B"H torah life was rebuilt and especially in these times we mourn the gedolim and posheter people alike who were taken al kidesh hashem and we hope are storming the kisei hakuved for the geile shliema......

Not Brisk said...

In Torah V'daas, many moons ago, the day after a chasidishe yungerman and a litvish recived smicha, R[' Gedalya met them in the hall. He said that the C was a Rov and the L was an American Rabbi. It was in jest and the L actually appreciated the attention/affection

Malcolm X said...

Lubavtich look at the Lithunanins as full of substance and lacking the core value of self annulment. That is the main reason why Rabbi Pam, who personified the Lithunain aproach of gayvah, was disliked.

He braved the detractors and did what he felt was right and went to comfort a person who was sitting shiva. Yes, he knew he would have to pay for it the next time, he went to the man on the hill, but he did it anyways, because it was the right thing. A noble act.

When he was there, he made the mistake of blessing the mourner that he should prepare the generation for the advent of Moshiach.


The mourner kindly and lovingly explained that Rabbi Pam was mistaken, because the buttons are already shined.

It was a very pleasant enounter and was captured on tape.

Zevy said...

Lubavitch is the true Chasidus

Snags think that they are the only ones that count.

They really hated Lubavtich before the Mashiach thing

blah blah blah

R'hirshel, ehr shluft shoyn?Ich vart af a teshuvah.

Anonymous said...

Anon
Didnt he shtam from Boyaner chasidim ?when the Boyaner used to come to Willi for shabosim reb Gedalye was always by the Tisch

Anonymous said...

Binyomin
"Lubavich Hagiography"
Chabad is the only chassidus that every thing is printed in the open.

Anonymous said...

Anon
what exactly did the Maloch do for torah in America, can you find a talmid chochom a Dershovitz, Shor, Weberman(besides Reb Mier that was TV talmid) ????
You are an Idiot uptight with the malach he was a Chassidisher Yid, Stop with all the nonsense.
I laugh from his decision to send his son to Kamenitz in order he shouldnt learn in lubavich by the Reshab or the Rayatz a little chassidus he came back a clean shaven ....
he was scared he will grow into a Reb Nissen?,Reb Yisroel noach? Reb Shlome Chaim?
stop bringing him up, he was a failure, the FR was the ultimate Jew as Avrhaam Avinu, he threw himself in the NKVD Kivshen Hoaish and built a holy group of chassidim around him to do the same, chassidud in its history didnt have these kind of holy avoida,the Oir of chassidus was shining at his highest point then, You saw that its not a gut Menucha Vesimcha with hot Overnight Kugel

Stop with the Malach hot gezugt, as he had more Ruach Hakodesh then the Rebbe Reshab 1 of the deepest Chabad Rebbes and aish Kodesh for Real Judaisim> dont try to rehash a mistake in a win. he made a mistake and Gegangen Vieter.

Related said...

Reb Gedaliah ZTL'S family Father, Zeida, were all SADIGURER chasidim. As was Reb Gedaliah himself. As a Rizhiner chosid he found a natural affinity to the Heiliger Boyaner. They were close in fact some chassidim wanted him to become Rebbeh. He declined, that was when the Heintiger Rebbeh was but a young bochur.

Reb Gedalya was an eidem by a Shtarker Gerrer Chosid Reb Nechama Isbee from Detroit, that is how Ger came into the picture.

The only Kanoi among the children is Reb Avrohom. I defy you find any vildkeit amongst the older 3 Bonim !

Related said...

FYI Some of the Litvisher Bochrim, followers of the other R'Y engaged in real heavy handed SHEIGATZ SHTICK, Reb Gedaliah suffered in silence for a very long time. No wonder he was nifter a very young 69 of a massive heart attack.

Yehi Zichro Boruch

Anonymous said...

R' Avrohom's connection to Ger had nothing to with his Zeide being a Gerrer chossid.

The Beis Yisroel met him by accident and wouldn't let go of him.

chaim dovid said...

Hirshel,
I'm shocked that you allow the previous comment by Avremel through.
He curses like a fishmonger a living person,from Monsey, who knows maybe it's even a neighbor

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'll fix that

thanks for bringing it to my attention

Avremele (edited by HT) said...

RYK never built anything in his life. The only things he ever accomplished on his own were the Wolpin brothers.

RGS built a yeshiva, was moser nefesh for the yeshiva, lived, and breathed for the yeshiva.

RYK was a sheine yid who said a "siur" in the "yesiva".

There were alot of people who were jealous of RGS, RYK included. When RYK decided to retire, he began a full-fledged attack to destroy RGS and the yeshivos he loved. First, he tried to install RZE (Zelig Epstein) as Rosh in YTV (BH that fell through). Next step was Monsey. He opened up (practically) next door. (Saddle River corner Albert). He then proceeded to get close to the bessere mentshen in BME. In particular, RD Ungarischer, RES Schustal, and the administrator Hershel Waxman.

TBC after Shabbos, bli neder

yumy said...

Avremel,
You are obviously very one sided.
Probably be a good idea that you own up to being very impartial.
Leinyoneinu:The saga of Tora Voda's is a sad one.They were from the first post high school yeshivas in America, put out very impressive alumini,BUT,look at them now, and 30 years ago to! In terrible shape, despite impressive magidei shiur, roshei yeshiva,Rav Pam etc..
The reasons:I think they allowed everybody to "raid" them.Lubavitch managed to get their seed talmidim from there and constantly raided them throughout the years.R'Moshe Wolfson worked on others to make them in "Moonies"(Emunas Yisroel)wondeful people btw, but obviously Moonies and Lubbies are not going to send their kids to a yeshiva like Tora Vodaas!
How did they allow the "raiding" but not having any clear hashkafic "kav".Chasides,ok,Lubavitch, ok, College ok.Everything ok and doing fine, only Torah Vodaas pathetically lost.
So yes had R'Yakovs kav one Torah Vodaas would be in much better shape.Had they even turned it into a chasidishe yeshiva they may have had a chance...
Interesting to note that R'Dovid Leibovitz, of Chofetz Chaim was rosh yeshiva in Tora Vodaas and left apparently also because of what "kav" the yeshiva would take.
Look at Chofetz Chaim and look at Tora Vodaas today!

Yoske said...

First, he tried to install RZE (Zelig Epstein) as Rosh in YTV (BH that fell through).
Tiyere chaver, you don't know the first thing about R' Zelig Shlit'a

Anonymous said...

Just to Add somthing Postive to This Post Kol Halashon Has Just added Rav Gedalya Schorr shiurim on Parshas Hashavua to all that want to learn and not just talk about a Great person here is the Link
http://kolhaloshon.com/New/Ravs.aspx?Lang=English&Path=English|Yeshivot|R7532&English=True

Avremele said...

Yoske

My comment wasn't entirely about RZE. What I was trying to bring out was RYK's hatred towards RGS, that he wanted so badly to destroy him.

Yumy

Nobody "raided" Torah Vodaas. It was the system set up by R' SFM. Every time a new yeshiva opened up (anywhere in the US, as far away as LA), he sent the best bochurim there.

The decline of YTV came when R' Reuven Fine ZT"L was niftar (93 or 94, I don't remember). Rav Sekula (may he live and be well) is afraid of losing control as he ages. He refused to take a new full-time RY. He brought in R' Yosef Savitsky, who comes to say a shiur and leaves. That's in his contract. Just recently Rav Noach Eizik Oelbaum was approved by the entire board to be RY, only to be vetoed by Rav Sekula.

(I'm not writing in order here)
When RDL left and opened CC, the only 2 talmidim who stayed in YTV were RGS and R' Nesanel Quinn Z"L. They rebuilt the yeshiva. Fast forward to the later years of RSFM. He left the yeshiva in the care of RGS and RYK. RNQ was terribly insulted and took any side against RGS. There is no evidence of any special closeness between him and RYK until politics happened.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it lovely how the "Gedolim" worked together to build torah.

The "Geodilim" openly destroy the the eidel menshen who mean lshem shomayim (like RGS) because they are too nice to make an open confrontation, knowing what it would do to the olam hatorah (similar to what is happening to the olam hachasidim today).

I am amazed the Rebbes have not put R' Tzvi Meir Z. in cherem for being a 'kat' or 'minim' like the Satmar Rebbe did to the Shomrei Emunim before the war and the Nikolsburger Rebbe after the war.

Maybe today there isn't even a pretense of being lshem shomayim. The power and money grabbing is obvious to all and they laugh at the chassidim who let them get away with it and continue to throw money at them.

Even ask those in Melbourne Australia about the 'whitch hunt" undertaken by a baal habos and Rosh Kollel of the Lakewood Kollel.....

Anonymous said...

Just recently Rav Noach Eizik Oelbaum was approved by the entire board to be RY, only to be vetoed by Rav Sekula.

EXCUSE ME That is the workings of GW who has his hand in every pie and destroying every mossad and organization that he can!!

the only 2 talmidim who stayed in YTV were RGS and R' Nesanel Quinn Z"L.

RGS wasn't a talmid he was on the staff
and Rav Pam who was a talmid stayed in MTV as he was learning Shulchan Aruch then

Anonymous said...

In a book called Jews of Brooklyn,it is stated that Torah Voddaas was named after Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in Lida founded by Harav Yaakov Reines ,which was a precursor of the yeshiva high school with secular studies in existence today. Rabbi Zev Gold,one of the founders named the yeshiva. According to that book Before RSFM arrived it was ivrit bivrit and a close cousin in hashkafa to Yeshive Eitz Chaim in Boro Park. After RSFM arrived the hashkafa changed.It is not clear after all these years why HARAV DOVID LEBOWITZ ZTL left?RDL wanted Slabodke in America.It is just amazing how much information you learn on these blogs

bpunbound said...

"That is the workings of GW"

Hirshel,

Of late, your blog has become 'too hot to handle'. Everyone who's anyone has been making an appearnace. Yashar.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Avremel

YOU have questionable yuchus. There is no better place to bring up that old fight than over here? There are many more knowledgable people, in the real world, who love to yap about it. Go there. Fech.

It's over: he opened up Stamfard, he opened up in Queens.... The main people were left with nothing.

Like they say about the talmidim of R' Yoneson Eibshitz and R' Yakov Emdin: they are together in yenne velt. V'dal

Anonymous said...

Yumy
I dont see where Ungarischer is standing today with his nice building on the 306, eventough he has a Kav a Misnaged as You
and where is the great Telz of Cleverland? is it also the Moonies or Chabads fault.
Bash Bash as long as your fingers will type.
,

Anonymous said...

Mal
Its amazing how sensitive you become when the Litvish dirty laundry is aired.
Lemain Yadiee doir achron that when reb Yakov Kids write that he wore a shabos beged on the day that the Gra signed the cherem. We should know exactly what kind of a personality the guy possesed. Because he had a facade of elderly smart yiddele.
I would love that bygone should be bygone, but not when you have the neomisnagdic movements.

reuven said...

Anon,
Since you are such a "heiseh" Lubavitcher, you are really doing a hatchet job on Lubavitch.
Do you think that now in the drie vochen it's appropriate to talk dirt about choshuve yidden?Not that talking against talmidei chachomim is ever appropriate, but when someone does it at the very worst time and noch der tzu, beistela dekedusha, one has to question them and their motives.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Anon

Continue with your justifications; they have no Halachik rational. It is not going to hold muster in the Bes Din Shel Mayla.

There are so many people who lived through the machloikes- go shmueze with them.

You will also get credibility; here many don't know the intricacies and you can sell them what ever you want.

don't to teshuva,
oy a bruch

Avremele said...

MAL

Rav Schustal didn't open Stamford. It was R' Hirsch Pruzansky and R' Dovid Hersh Mayer Zichronom L'vracha. Rav Schustal is a hired hand.

Avremele said...

Cont.

DON'T QUESTION MY YICHUS!

This is the hottest blog around. All the other politics gets discussed here. Why not this as well?

pirchei said...

"This is the hottest blog around. All the other politics gets discussed here. Why not this as well?"
Maybe, because it's "loshon Horah"
Maybe because loshon hora is much worse on living people, one of whom you cursed with the worst curses?

Anonymous said...

What is the date the gra signed the cherem? Is there a copy. Has it been reposted? Just curious. remember those that succeed have ZECHUSIM.They may have been dormant for awhile but never forgotten

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

succeeded at what?

Anonymous said...

Most of what I know comes from Art Scroll bios. Nevertheless I want to offer the following speculation. If RGS had prevailed over RYK, Orthodox Jewish life would have turned out differently. The yeshivish world would be more chasidish and there would be a much better integration of lumdus and chasidus. What we have today are chasidim learing in Litvish yeshivas , something quite different.

Second, the way of RSFM of creating baalei batim who learn, would not be in such disrepute. When the Litvish people have the entire playing field to themselves, its kolel 24x7 with little regard to parnasah.

To judge the relative merits of these two gedolim one should look at their seforim. I would say Rabbi Schorr was a serious thinker and baal hashkafah, as well as as someone who tried to continue the development of the derech of lumdus in the study of Talmud. I personally fail to see similar greatness in RYK. The gadol who I think RYK is most similar to is Rabbi Saul Lieberman. Great man, but a philologist at heart.

Just an uneducated opinion.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Lemain Yadiee doir achron that when reb Yakov Kids write that he wore a shabos beged on the day that the Gra signed the cherem. We should know exactly what kind of a personality the guy possesed. Because he had a facade of elderly smart yiddele."

This is a bunch of Bull. It was the Chazon Ish, not RYK. And it wasn't neccessarly an expression of Hisnagdus, but a indecation of keeping a family tradition even though the reason may not be appicable anymore.

Anonymous said...

@pirchei

What part of this blog doesn't have loshon hara? Are you new here?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon

don't spread lies about my blog.

Anonymous said...

I didn't mean loshon hara per se. What I meant was that this blog discusses alot of politics, which inevitably leads to loshon hara.

Anonymous said...

Rav Schorr was a rare tzadik and gaon. I wish I would have had the chance to learn from him directly, as opposed to merely learning his seforim. He set a standard for most boys learning in American yeshivas: its possible to be great, really really great, even when most of your learning takes place in America. That is how my father looked at him when he was in Torah Vodaath, and I suspect that that message will remain part of his legacy to the American Orthodox Jewish world.

That, and that fact that he was so incredibly humble despite his extraordinary gifts and accomplishments.

Anonymous said...

http://matzav.com/news-at-yeshiva-torah-vodaath/

Avremele said...

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=27978&pgnum=37

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=27978&pgnum=38