Friday, July 17, 2009

וכסית את צאתך, ובא לציון גואל - דברים כ"ג, י"ד



[DISCLAIMER - The following is not meant to attack the American Yated Ne'eman, a wholly independent newspaper which only shares the name with its Israeli counterpart. The proceeding lines are directed towards the Israeli paper only. Thank You.]

COL ran this "story" about a review of a sefer that was recently published in Israel, where the mechaber lumps together three groups that in his distorted, hate-filled mind are one and the same: Tziyonim, Mizrochim, and CHABAD. There are several fascinating elements to the whole sefer, to the pick and choose attitude, and to the whole revisionism that we're witnessing in front of our very eyes. It's one thing when it's Mikveh or blog reid, but when these lies are published, and the lies get Haskomes from so-called Gedolim, iz shoyn tzorres. You wanna say that Chabad was too buddy-buddy with the Tziyonim for your liking, despite the obvious reasons, go right ahead. You wanna say that you're upset that they don't follow the directives of your Rebbes? fine. I can see that it hurts your collective ego. But don't LIE! Don't sit here and tell the minions who would spend money on this BUCH that Chabad trumpets the medinah as Aschalta DiGeula, because a five year-old could tell you otherwise. If this is the way you did your supposed research how trustworthy is the book, and how trustworthy are the ones who gave Haskomes to this piece of fiction?!

Then we go on to revisionist part of the book, the one that tells you that Rabboseinu in Di Lita were all anti-Zionist and anti-Medinah. And that he and his cohorts are carrying that fine tradition handed down from the Chofetz Chaim and Reb Elchonon. What a joke! Any student of history could very easily tell you that the Lita was full of Zionism. That many, if not most of the Rabbonim there were active in the Mizrachi and Revisionist movements, and that REW was the black sheep (for lack of a better term) when it came to Zionism and the Medinah question. And these Litvishe Rabbonim were for the most part talmidim of the great Yeshivos too. Even Reb Chaim was supposed to have said that all Rabbonim in di Lita are quasi-Maskilim! At the 1937 Knessiah Gedauloh Reb Elchonon was the from the only ones (or maybe the only one?!) to vote against supporting the creation of a Jewish State were it to be created. I realize that these Rabbonim have long since passed on and that they no longer make policy for the Yeshivishe world, but still. At least the Hungarians have a long history of being anti-Zionist, so for them it's carrying on the traditions of their forefathers, but you guys? Unless these are all Hungarians turned Litvaks?


Rav Reines of Lida

Over the last few decades the Olam HaYeshivos DiLita has basically reinvented itself. They've become very shtarke "Kanoyim." Why not? They can have their cake and eat it too! get Billions from the State and say that we don't believe in it at all, we hate them, we have no Shaychus to them. Old timers like the Ponovizher Rov had the common decency to appreciate what he got, no matter which negios they had when they gave him land and money for his yeshivos. After all, blogger Yumy told us that even Moshe Rabbeinu had Negios, so why shouldn't DBG or the current Israeli PM?! Today every TD&H is a Brisker Rov, but he lives off the Government anyway, and knocks the Medinah, and anybody he accuses of liking it too much, any chance he gets. And since Chabad is always fair game in their murky eyes they lump Chabad in to the same pile as the Mizrachi. A commenter on the story on COL brought the pasuk listed above and made a nice pshetel out of it, besides for the actual pasuk, that is, where the וכסית is very appropriate, that they're covering up their own crud by going after Chabad and others. Why do they knock the fact that people say that Moshiach is on his way etc.? Because az s'vet zain ובא לציון, vet verren גואל, אויס לייזער, no more Lazer..... וד"ל

ודפח"ח ושפתיים ישק

114 comments:

shimon s said...

Tzig, try to answer the following question:

1. How many people will actually read this garbage? How many pieces were actually published?

2. Would you say that the number of people who will find out about this book from COL or this blog is comparable to the number of people who will really buy it and read it?

My point is that this is less newsworthy than most blog entries out there. And the haskomos? C'mon, you know the process...

yumy said...

"Because az s'vet zain ובא לציון, vet verren גואל, אויס לייזער, no more Lazer..... וד"ל"

This last pun (which most people may not get)is childish and obsessively hate filled.

Star spangled lubab said...

ודפח"ח ושפתיים יושק


Spinka caught up with you
"יושק"????

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yumy

it's a joke, not hate filled

{talk about sensitive!}

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

star spangled

thanks. it's been corrected


Shimon S

gimme a break here! I'm trying to generate new topics!

non mouse said...

they ARE all hungarians turned litvaks.

in bad taste, the paylishe say a joke,
that hitler had already killed 3 million yidden when he invaded hungary and only then suddenly people started screaming "save the jews" so hitler said, oh you want jews? i'll leave you stuck with the hungarians/...

Avremele said...

The last line wasn't a joke. It's a true story.

The Satmar Ruv had a talmid in der heim (mid - late 30s) named Leizer. After the war he met Leizer in EY and he was Lo Uleini a megulach. That's when the Rebbe said the line.

Anonymous said...

The 5th Lubavitcher rebbe was very anti tzioni so what are you talking about.

The brisker rov read the 1st ma'amer or whatever it is called by the last L. rebbe and said that this man thinks he is the messiah. So we see that a chochom is odif from a novi!

face it, lubo's are mi'chutz le'machaneh. no one holds from them. get a life and go back to being an ungvar chussid. this lubo stuff is naarishkeit.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anonymous

גיי גרעפס אויס די אייער מיט צוויבל ערגעץ אנדערש

דא רעדט מען צו דער זאך

anon3 said...

"face it, lubo's are mi'chutz le'machaneh. no one holds from them. get a life and go back to being an ungvar chussid. this lubo stuff is naarishkeit."Mi'chutz" who's "machane"?
Get real. The only "machane" that they are "mechutz" is the Liitveshe yisheveshe crowd.Not Chssideshe,not most MO,not Religous Zionist,not secular.
That makes your "machane" a very small one mitoich klal Yisroel.

Not Brisk said...

A few questions

Wasn't that Ashkenazi with the oys Lazer comment?

Does the current Chabad reflect the Rashab's view on Zionism?

The current yeshivishe velt is reflective of views of the Gedaylim right before they established their medinah; it took on a whole different flavor then; It wasn't in the luften, it was lmaysah, etc....

R' Chaim's statement is not anymore, from what we know, than the Rambam that says that is impossible not to be affected by the environment.V'dal

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon3

morons like the one here need not be answered on their so-called points. Ignore. They'll scamper away.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The current Chabad is the current Rebbe, and yes, it is the Rashab's view, just under very different circumstances. Just like the heter to make Bais Yaakovs, among others.

From what we know? what's that supposed to mean?! He was talking about his peers being influenced by the environment, yes, but seemingly didn't include himself... and I guess most people would add his second and beloved son to that category....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

and besides, why are they (Yeshivish) allowed to rewrite their opinions and Chabad has to stick to what you consider Rashab's opinions?!

yumy said...

"The current Chabad is the current Rebbe, and yes, it is the Rashab's view, just under very different circumstances. Just like the heter to make Bais Yaakovs, among others."


Gobbledygook!!

Same reason the Rebbe is still Nosi, vechulu.

Saying that the Rasha'bs position vis a vis Zionism even remotely resembles Chabads position today is living in fantasy world(unfortunately many in Chabad are in some kind of fantasy world).

Not that I would have a problem if the Rebbe diasgreed with Rash'ab, which evidently he did.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

“and besides, why are they (Yeshivish) allowed to rewrite their opinions and Chabad has to stick to what you consider Rashab's opinions?!”

The obvious answer to that is because Chabad claims the Rebbes opinions are Ruach Hakodes, can’t be wrong etc. Which is why few in Chabad will say that there is a difference in opinion, as that would give live to the Rebbes alleged infallibility. Unlike the Litvaks of years gone by whom never subscribed to such concepts. Today’s Litvak coverts from Chassidim I don’t know. But they probably believe the Artscroll version of history, including the alleged Kanois of previous Litvisher gedolim. As a pure blood Litvak, I would write more, but I am afraid I will sound like a Gezeh complaining about all the Gevorenah. All in all, if not for all the Hungarian, Polish and Germent convert, there would be hardly any Litvish left. Simple test. Go to any alleged Litvish schul on Chol Hamoed. See what percent of the people are wearing Tepillin, (as was the universal Minhag in Lita, the GRA notwithstanding). Then see what percent of the minority of tephillim wearers are of German (and Oberland extraction) and what percent are of Litvish roots. Not more than ten percent at best. Even Lakewood Yeshiva has many many minyanim Chol Hamoed for none tepillin wearers!!!

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Most zionists do not consider chabad zionist. How could they when the "Modernishe Rebbe" said they were more anti zionist than satmar? They just care about the Jews and medina ahin medina aher. It's a cash cow for them same as for the yeshivos. When have you ever seen a chabad house that benched medina or even made misheberach for the IDF?

Anonymous said...

many Chabad houses make misheberech for IDF

saul said...

"Most zionists do not consider chabad zionist."
Ahem.You know this?How?
"It's a cash cow for them same as for the yeshivos"

So you are saying that they portray themselves as pro-zionist to get money?


Einstein!

Anonymous said...

Chabad are mi'chutz le'machaneh of the chasidishe oylom. No one marries into them, or holds from them.
As for the modernishe crowd, they are like chabad, mi'chutz le'machaneh. they break halochah left and right. their so called rabbinic court, the BDA, is filled with a bunch of kofrim completely off the derech hatorah and torah hashkofos.

star spangled Lubob said...

צֵאָתֶךָ, no yud

Anonymous said...

"Not that I would have a problem if the Rebbe diasgreed with Rash'ab, which evidently he did."

yumy,
What you fail to understand, chabad's duty is to bring moshiach, in the times of the rashab the being against the zionist movement and keeping yidden frum was the path to moshaich. In our days, working with the zionists, and therefore being mekarev to teshuva will bring moshiach. Same endgame, different strategy, nothing changed.

nonmouse said...

post the haskamas, read well most haskamos say a lot less the the books auther wants you to know. they count on people not reading them. tgats why even luke warm and non haskamos get printed. people/fools just look at the stationary and buy the book. as some one involed in publishing I can tell you, even if a photocopy of the haskoma is printed, doesn't mean that's what the Maskim wrote. . . anyone with a scanner and paint can rewrite the letter to please in the origional handwriting

setting the record straight said...

"Then we go on to revisionist part of the book, the one that tells you that Rabboseinu in Di Lita were all anti-Zionist and anti-Medinah. And that he and his cohorts are carrying that fine tradition handed down from the Chofetz Chaim and Reb Elchonon. What a joke! Any student of history could very easily tell you that the Lita was full of Zionism."

If that is what it says, you are definitely right.

"Over the last few decades the Olam HaYeshivos DiLita has basically reinvented itself."

Not all, but some. But that should be put in context, namely the rise of the more extreme Lakewood types, vis a vis more moderate elements.

Despite your disclaimer at the top, which maybe you put in since the Publisher/Editor is now collecting for Rubashkin, etc., I think the American Yoseid needs to be called to task for being part of this change. If you look in this week's Yoseid, p.64, bottom right hand corner, you will see that he put in there the recent notorious letter by Kiryas Joel Mayor Abe Weider to the President, without any caption, comment, or disclaimer. It seems that Lipschutz, has an inferiority complex re his Litvishe roots, and is a Satmar wannabe.

"At least the Hungarians have a long history of being anti-Zionist, so for them it's carrying on the traditions of their forefathers, but you guys?"

There were and are plenty of Hungarian tzionim.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Hungarian Tziyonim were an anomaly, most of them were just Neologues, Hungarian Patriots, etc. That's part of why Glaszner was such an "outcast."

Lipschutz is aiming to please, I guess, but he's been nice. I did not see that letter from Wieder. I do remember that editorial after 3 Tamuz 5754 about the Rebbe, but maybe somebody else wrote it...

Lakewood, CI'niks, Briskers, they're having a very strong affect on our boys. Being a kano'ii is fun and free, and it puts you in with the popular guys...

setting the record straight said...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

.... All in all, if not for all the Hungarian, Polish and Germent convert, there would be hardly any Litvish left. Simple test. Go to any alleged Litvish schul on Chol Hamoed. See what percent of the people are wearing Tepillin, (as was the universal Minhag in Lita, the GRA notwithstanding). Then see what percent of the minority of tephillim wearers are of German (and Oberland extraction) and what percent are of Litvish roots. Not more than ten percent at best. Even Lakewood Yeshiva has many many minyanim Chol Hamoed for none tepillin wearers!!!"

Not so simple. There are Litvishe, however wearing of tefillin on chol hamoed is not a good litmus test for them. In that matter, due to the increased influence of the the Brisker (right wing Israelis, as well as modern orthodox types who are 'Chassidim' of the Bostoner Rav R. Yoshe Ber z"l) and GR"A following Litvishe subgroups, as well as the increased influence of minhogei Eretz Yisroel bichlal with so many spending time there, among other things, there seem to be less wearing tefillin on chol hamoed. But that doesn't mean that they are not Litvish anymore, they may have just changed with respect to that inyan.

P.S. Most Litvaks in der heim were not Kayllel'niks.

setting the record straight said...

I think that RPL semi-buried the Wieder-KJ letter on a bottom corner of page 64, because he was afraid and didn't want to make too many waves. But people should know and see what he is up to, see his agenda. Maybe he should move to KJ, hey, it is not that far from Olympia, right?

P.S. The oisleizer joke doesn't work too well, since the name of Moreinu ztvk"l was R. Elozor, not Eliezer. But hey, you think a technicality like that will stop the leitzim from their work?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, but even in the Yeshivishe world they're very much confused as to whether it was Lazer or Elozor.

Anonymous said...

Ha, I just had the opportunity to send a kivitel to the rebbe on gimmel, the closest paper to me was the yated, so I ripped off a corner and wrote on it.

Michoel said...

It doesn't make much sense to me to comment on the tochen of the sefer based on the review in the Yated. And also, the snippet here seems more to be lumping Chabad together with the Tzionim "lav dafka" b'nogea to aschalta d'geula. What the article means to say is that Chabad is one group that became m'kulkal in inyanei Moshiach. You can hardly be surprised that they hold that way. Tzig, did you actually see the sefer inside? If so, please correct me if I am wrong.

Michoel said...

I have to say, the play on the word

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

anon,
yes it is a cash cow. Anyone heard of kfar chabad?

And yes, I guess they would make a misheberach if they have israelis there. It's about being mekarev people not aschalta d'geula. For them aschalta d'geula is in a particular corner of chutz laaretz not tel aviv.

Anonymous said...

What are the loshon kodesh names of Tom Dick and Harry (TD&H). The only one that has alot of Jews is Harry and that is zvi or hershel,etc. Thank you

setting the record straight said...

The Yoseid publisher himself is a tziyoini, ho rayo, he calls his paper YaTed instead of Yoseid, like in modern Hebrew/Ivrit. Does he say Shabbat? Why does he call it Yated and not Yoseid? Let him change it right now! I know there is a teirutz that it comes from a roshei teivos, but the words Yoseid Neemon come from a posuk in Tanach, and when someone encounters those words, if they know Tanach, they think of that. Einoi yoitzei midei pshuto.

So if the Yoseid publisher iz aza greyse Satmarer, let him change the masthead of the paper and change the spelling right now! A good time to do tshuvoh would be now, right before the nine days. We just leined parshas Pinchos, Pinchos=kanai, this publishers name is Pinchos, vos far a kanoi iz er when he calls it Yoseid? Even Rav Kook z"l said that one should not change their havoro from Ashkenazis.

Anonymous said...

HARAV YAAKOV REINES ZTL oF LIDA ,I believe ,was either the founder or leader of the chovvei zion movement which had many litvishe followers. There is a building on Troy ave between empire and Montgomery in Crown Heights Brooklyn called YESHIVA RABBI JACOB REINES.It had a big shul on main floor,ezras nashim one flight up,junior congregation room and classrooms upstairs.Also a beis medrash downstairs .The Lubavitch bought the building and renovated the big shul for a bais medrash.

Malcolm X said...

R' Nuchem Pertzovitz appreciated the Rebbe's hauures on Rashi's on Chumash. At Kan

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

malcolm

where what when?

how does that come in here?

Fred said...

After his f-i-l died he went to grave daily until he got his coveted position.

anon3 1/2 said...

A person who suspected all of thos rabbis to be affected by Haskala, would think What, my friend, regarding all Lubavitchers being affected by Mezyizy. nu nu. Be consitent

You guys are out of the camp that you care about the most.

yumy said...

Setting the record straight,
Learn how to read!
Hirshel specifically said he was not talking about the English Yated, unafilliated with the Hebrew.
Maybe you don't know, but in loshon kodesh YATED and YOSED have the same spelling.
I wish there was a way to block idiot posters

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
I heard that the E Y Yated is in the dumps that it is distributed for free on the corners of Beitar, the musaf hashvuha that was very nice the first years of its exsistence is very poorly written,
there is probably 2 reasons
1) Der Ingarisher Ferd Riechman that pumped it the first fullfiling the holy will of the Gtreatest Maran of all Marans is also down the tube.
1) Most Benai torah don"t see the importance of having your own newspaper thats hijacked by the Litvish Meshichisten that will face the fact that the Avi Ezri is dead.Especialy when the real goal today is not some exterior wars as Shas, Brisk, Greiniman and Chabad. It is more how you can make Rav Sheteinman a lesser Maran by putting on top of the fold or beyond. its good for the Jews

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The brisker rov read the 1st ma'amer or whatever it is called by the last L. rebbe and said that this man thinks he is the messiah. So we see that a chochom is odif from a novi!"
How come this word of the Brisker didnt surface until the Shach goons started it hate mongering against Chabad? I am not saying that Reb Velvel was Chosid, but I have a right not believe that statement eventough it was allready recycled many times.
Did the Brisker read all the inaguration torahs of all Rebbes? or only Chabad? or he had Ruach Hakodesh that there is some Kefirah involved?

schneur said...

What I don't get is what's wrong with being a Mizrachi or even a Revisionist Zionist ?
Who were the "nimnu vegomru" that the Aguda, Satmar or the like were correct in their policies. A quick look at events from 1933 leads one to draw the exact opposite conclusion.
Among the Mizrachi people were men like rabbi Nissan Telushkin, SY Zevin, Rabbi MM Kuperstock of Postov Haifa the ed at the wedding in Warsaw in 1928., I won't bother to mention rav Kuk,Rav Moshe Soloveitchik,Rav Glasner of klausenberg , Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Reines (I heard Reb Domb the NK leader say that rav Reines was gretaer than the Badaatz of today the 1980's)and guess who was the last president of the Mizrachi in Poland ? none other than Rav leib Poupko the son of the heiliger Chofetz Chaim.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
Zevin, Telushkin were not from Lubavich,
Reb Moshe Soloviechik Mizrochi? he had a jon in the Tachkimoni in Warsaw a Mizrachi funded institution, and thats it, He never related to these idelogocal movements he was Totah to the core with no Daas Torah as our genaration is blessed with.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"many Chabad houses make misheberech for IDF

Can u give us at least 3 in order we should see the"many"

Anonymous said...

Hirshel;
Does that sefer offer new chidushim in the Rambam hilchois Melochim regarding Moshiach, or it gives the hot air statements that Shulzinger heard from Rav abramsky. Or Roiter heard from Nati Grossman beshem Hachazon Ish
its all fabricated lies,created for the flavor of the day.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it seems like more "contemporary" sources

no need for Rishonim when you have today's GIANTS....

schneur said...

Zevin and Telushkin were not from Lubavitch? Oh ! they got semicha from Bobroisk but both joined lubavitch in 1924 and remained till their death in the 1970's!!!! So now you are disallowing all former Kopuster, Ladier, Bobroisker etc from Lubavitch , so who is left ? lets see a few Schneersons, Gourarys and a few others ( myself) desc from the few families who remained loyal to the Maharash and a hamon rav of BT's
Saying Reb Moshe Soloveitchik joined Mizrach for material reasons is like saying ploni became a Satmarer for money reasons and x became a Agudist for the same reason.Frankly some joined Chabad for the same reasons in the last 40 years. In the final outcome Reb Moshe was a Mizrachi,.
Other Mizrachi gedolim were Rabbi Avigdor Cyperstein of RIETS,Rav Charlop the rov of Shaare Chesed rav Citron the son in law of the Rogochover and rav of Petach Tikvah, Rav Henoch Aigus the Marcheses of Vilna, vechuli vechuli.Because the roshe yeshivas were not Mizrachi people think that the litvishe rabbonim wee opposed . Also the Don Yihya family of Chabad were prominent in Mizrachi.
Let history judge which shittah peoved correct !

schneur said...

Yes Tzig in Lita Mizrachi was strong and there is nothing to be embarresed about.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Schneur

I never told them to be embarrassed. All I did was tell them to get off their high zealous horse.

yumy said...

Scneour,
"Oh ! they got semicha from Bobroisk but both joined lubavitch in 1924 and remained till their death in the 1970's"
What do you mean that they joined Lubavitch in 1924?
I was of the impression that they were never card carrying Lubavitchers.
They were Chabad, from the more intellectual Kopust line.The bigger talmidei chachmim in Chabad were from R'Shmaryohu Noiachs yeshiva.
There is something to said in general that apparently intellect vs the Emuno Peshuto the emuno peshto trumps.From all the Chabad dynasties only Lubavitch survived!

yumy said...

"All I did was tell them to get off their high zealous horse."
Nothing personal R'Hirshel, but this line made me laugh.Do you think that they care what you say?
You seem to be the guy who gets contorted into knots about anything they say.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

NO, THEY DON'T CARE.

I don't take myself that seriously. It's a figure of speech.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
By Zevin Telushkin not being Lubavich, I meant that they are from a school that didnt shun the Chovevie Zion movement as harsh as the Reshab, In the Pesach Dovor to the Kuntres Umayon there is a long sharp monologe from the Reshab with some Rav Aronson regarding the Chovevie zion, I think that aronson was a kaposter and pro zionisim, correct me if I am wrong.

Anonymous said...

Shneur,
Can you show of some tendency of Reb Moshe Soloviechig to the Mizrachi, a Letter? a Derosha? did he go the Mizrachi banquets,
From his son in the Chomesh deroshas you conclude that he changed from the family tradition,

Anonymous said...

Yumy
"they were Chabad, from the more intellectual Kopust line.The bigger talmidei chachmim in Chabad were from R'Shmaryohu Noiachs yeshiva"
Where are you getting your facts? Beis Rebbe? Harav Miliadi?or you learned the chassidus of the Marash and the Mogen Oves and saw the difference, I would like to see your method for conluding such a blank statement, or you have a list of the Kapuster Talmidie chachomim.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, Chabad has done such a rewrite of history, very few know what history is true and what is made up. While it has a glorious past, much is far from the ....and the internal struggle of past chassidim is left out of the books....Reb Itche der masmid, R' Motchkin of Montreal and R' Mendel Futerfas are made out to be superhumans...not so different from the Artscroll models produced by Aguda to shore up its version of Eastern Europen Jewry pre WW2.

Most Chabad bochrim honestly beliegve that any talmid of the Rebbe Rashab and talmid of Tomchei Temimim was greater than any Poilisher Rebbe of their day....

Show me one chabadsker today(including Reb Yoel Shlite) who davens as long as the Amshinover Rebbe Shlite, who seeks the truth like R' Tzvi Mayer Z. Shlite, who is as temimesdik as the Rachmastrivke Shliteor Toldos Avrom Yitzchak Shlite etc.....or as no chochmes and 'old school' as the Skulerner Rebbe Shlite, as no frills, despite the 'Rizshiner Malchus' he personifies as the Boyaner Rebbe.

R' Nochum Dov Twersky may enjoy the chassidus of Chabad as would R' Mendel Vechter or Reb Yukesiel Farkash but what about their children...had they learnt chassidus and even gone to the Rebbe for Yomtov but kept the temimeskeit and ugehitenkeit of their former lives, would their children not be more true chassidim today ?

How many chabadsker will tell you their children went off from the people they met on Mivtzoim in Manahttan (I admit others were saved through this means and it is not a criticism, rather pointing out the lack of training/preparation which should have gone along with it...)?

Please post this, rather than leaving out and don't edit as I seek a ernest response....

Anonymous said...

Did you see this?

An Archivist Discovers the Rebbe

Anonymous said...

What I think the previous poster was getting at is that the Dor Shvii would have you believe that their version of Chabad was the true version and that Kapust, Boiberik etc...were watered down versions which did not last.

The gadlus of the Rayatz in the US was to bring the sheeis hapleita of all these groups together, hence the name "Agudas Chasidei Chabad" which brough together the koiches and maalos of all branches.

Unfortunately many bochrim in Chabad today never realised there were more than Chabad Rebbe at any one time....is there a reason for this ? (e.g. the 7 ushpizin being the 7 Rebbes of Chabad - were there only seven - to the exclusion of all others) giving the impression there was only one true heir to the teachings of the Alter Rebbe in each successive generation.

Perhaps this is why R' Levi Yitchak said maamorim in the lifetime of the Rayatz and why the R' MMS never went to the Rebbe until his shiduch to the Rebbetzin - he subscribed to a different branch of chabad (but this is not discussed anymore)....

Can anyone verify these version of events both regarding the Rayatz and the last paragraph ?

Anonymous said...

Rav Farkash has all his kids as fine as any Toldois Aron/Avrham Yitzchok family,they all have as much teminmus as any toldois aron guy, the world have seen the kedusha at is finest by both groups lately, stop the baloney,In matter a few the Farkash boys are nice talmidie chachomim,
why would think that your above mentioned mashpim are not as big tzadikim as the Poilisher rebbes, why could reb Peretz not pass as a Reb chaim Mayer Viznitzer for instance, Why cant Reb Mendel Futterfass not pass for Reb Benzion Bobover, he knew as much torah vechhasidus as him, and brought hundreds of Jews to torah under dire circunstances,building a successfull dynasty for your offspring dont make you no bigger Kodush.
I can find the Leshem Shomaim of Rav Ziberberg in chabad 1000 times more.

Anonymous said...

Anon
did the doir hachamishi or shishi believe in Kapust or Liadi?,they were more adament then today.
Did the Bilgarier Rov exsist in his brothers lifetime? Did Alexsander exsist in the eyes of Gur? arent they all from Peshische? Did Izhbitze exsist in the Eyes Of kotzk? did Mussar exsist in the eyes of brisk and chazon Ish?
why doees the doir hashevi be the once to accept everyone ?
What kick are you getting from Reb Levi Yitzchok not being a chosid of the Rayatz,In chabad it was the norm that chasidim didnt adapt easy to the next Rebbe for difference in style of his mamorim etc.. because the kugel and tzimmes formula was not the same thru each Rebbe.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Chabad has done such a rewrite of history, very few know what history is true and what is made up"
In my reading Chabad history I see that unfotunatly they publicised more then any other chassidus or any Community,
starting from The kalisker/ Strashelyer/ the tzemach tzedkek kids/ etc..obviously it has their bend since every body believes the story the way he wants,
For instance how much do you know of belz? Reb Yehoshoa had older brothers did they deliver it to him on a golden platter? reb Yisocher Dov was the 2nd son did his brother offer it? what about his daughters and SIL ?
you are programed that Chabad is censoring that you repeat it like a Robot,while unfortunatly every thing is documented.

Anonymous said...

anonymous 11:14
And I guess any of them could have taken the place of RMMS

Anonymous said...

If Chabad is so open and honest, then why was there such a backlash to the Larger Than Life series ?

If R' Deutsch was a liar and poor historian, why not publish a more accurate book than his own, rather than threaten his life and run him out of Crown Heights ? (oh sorry it must have been Satmar in disguise).

edited

Chabad is no worse than anyone else at a lot of things, but as far as accusing Yated of revisionist history......they are no better either...

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is that the 'winner writes history'.

No kreis is honest because highlighting and admitting the faults of the past shows the 'system' never worked and that we are reproducing a faulty way of life....

We cannot admit that leaders today make a mistake, because then "daas torah" goes out the window, we cannot report crime and child abuse (and look at lengths gone to in Yerushalayim to defend it) because it shows that the torah, the way we practice it today cannot overcome mental disease, human nature just be sitting on a bench and learning a blatt gemora or maamar chassidus....you need medical problems medicated/dealt with and to be a good jew like the Rebbes and Mashpiim mentioned above it takes a lot of determination and hard work, which most of us are destined never to do....

The Gemora said about eighteen hundred years ago...."Noach leadam shelo nivra" unfortunately most of us may never meet the standard set......

The questions is should the bar be lowered...or is a radical change required to the system....like the times of the Baal Shem Z'yu in his times ????

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm not sure even a BeSHT would do the job today, people today are not as simple and accepting as they were 300 years ago...

Anonymous said...

Yidden are not as opressed today as in Easter Europe and no longer look to chassidus or yiddishkeit as the answer.

Suffering seemes to bring out the chelek aloyka to the fore, just look at Stalinist Russia and the type of chassidim it generated. Maybe you can liken people like the kedoshim of Mumbai to R' Choni Merozov and the like...but even they did not live through (until their Akeida) the experiences of a Mendel Futerfas etc...

Relatively we have it easier and this is what the Alter Rebbe was afraid of in Napolean's times.....

Anonymous said...

chabad wrote their own biography of the rebbes early years in 3 volumes Yemai Melech years before obviously shimmi decided to smear to please his newfound satmar, misnagdic and "librarians" . he was looking for instance for some negativity from RJBS with all his screwed up talent, or smearing the Rebbes family,if shimmy would have a brother or son off the Derech will he put out a book about It? did he Mekabel Nezifa from The Rebbes holy father? a kodosh vethoer a baal mekubal? I dont give a .... for the chesed that he is doing, it is chesed deklipa, in my world if you print and you make a chilul hashem you burn in hell.

Anonymous said...

Anon
The facts have shown that the holocaust, pogroms and the jewish poverty in Eastern Europe was no good for Religon, in the last few decades you see a historic movement of Returnee, their was no such concept of masses returning to the fold since the prophets, Dont let nobody tell you different, the six day war victory had a bigger effect on teshuva then all calamities that befell Klal Yisroel

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately as a percent those leaving are many more than those returning.

In the olden days there was a lot less learning...but a lot more toichen....

Can someone explain how this relates to the concept of moiach shalit al halev ???

Anonymous said...

I dont realy think that more are leaving.

Anonymous said...

Have you been to Brooklyn lately ?

Can you deny there are more people dressed chasidish in Boro Park with langer reklach but trimmed beards ?

Are there not more people wearing jeans and t-shirts in Crown Heights than when the Rebbe was alive.

Are there not more litvish bochrim hanging around Ben Yehuda and the pool parlours of Brooklyn and nightclubs of Manhattan than before.

Maybe the dress was not stressed as much so as many percent did these things but did not dress as 'frim' so it was not so noticable.....

I think the cycle is returning to pre-war when the youth rebelled, especially against the poverty trap of no education and no chance of earning a good salary unless your family have money or connections....

Anonymous said...

Lets face it. Yiddishkeit taken seriously is hard but rewarding.

We are living in a instant gratification world like never before, but copying a style of yiddishkeit suited to pre WW2 Europe.

The Rabbes and Rosh Yeshivas appear clueless in adapting to the challenges faced today (e.g. having to fill in umpteen forms requiring basic understanding of what you are doing to run a business) unlike pre-war life which was harder, but simpler if you know what I mean.....

Anonymous said...

Let start in BP
There are many people with trimmed beards, that their father also trimmed in earlier years and only look chassidish in levush since they were forced to these levushim by the organized modsdois peer pressure, Viener camp for instance is more extreme today then most chassidic camps because of some menahel there, this eventualy leads them to get to their own self after they get married, which I dont see as a problem. why should a hungarian simple jew have a wild bushy beard? he keeps bearly the shulchan oruch has no chassidic hergeshim, owns a nice car nice house has a shiur, takes a vacation, and he is a good jew.

yumy said...

Hirshel,
Please!
Ban all anonymous comments.
Can't make head or tails of these anonymouses.

Richard said...

There is a mystic of numbers when you talk about how many that are leaving and how many that are coming in to a group. Maybe the hareidi group is growing but if all born into the group stayed here/there it would be much larger. AND there is no statistic doubt that the group of people who accoding to halacha is Jewish is getting smaller every year.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
I think that Yumy would like to buy some shares in you profitable enterprise,since he offers worthwile advice

schneur said...

The Bobroisker was virulently anti-Zionist. Where did you get the idea that he was a Chovev Zion supporter ?
Rav Aaronson was not a Kopuster but from a family of Strasheller chassidim. The rebbe was mechabed rav Zevin in a big way.Even after he died he tld his almona der mann iz doh doh !!
The Kehos Society published rav Telushkin's seforim , and Telushkin was from the yoshve rishonim bemalchus until his death.

yumy said...

Schneur,
I asked why you said that Rav Zevin and Rav Telushin became card carrying Lubavitchers in 1924?
Rav Zevin and Rav Telushkin were considerd a prize to be associated with, of course Rav Telushkin, of a Chabad extraction would be sitting oiven on.It showed off Lubavitchs victory of taking over all of Chabad.
Same for Rav Zevin.
Btw,Tav Telushkin gave over to R'Grainom Lazevnik(non Lubavitch,Novardok, but was a teacher in the Lubavitch yeshiva) material to publish, which he did.
It's vertlach that he would say while giving a shiur.Maybe there is more but I don't remember.In it, you see how Rav Telushkin was so not your classic Lubavitcher of today.His vertlach were the very universal kind

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Rav Zevin and Rav Telushkin were considered a prize to be associated with, of course Rav Telushkin, of a Chabad extraction would be sitting oiven on.It showed off Lubavitchs victory of taking over all of Chabad.

Yumy: this has to stop. Really, you're sounding like a paranoid fool.

Anonymous said...

What is the date of the cherem letter against chassidim?Just curious.

Anonymous said...

Shneur,
It is known by everyone that both were considered Chabad chasidim from the last 2 Rebbes,I wouldnt put them as Mekushirim .
I think that rav Telushkin quotes some letter of the Rebbe in Hilcois Mikvoas.The Rebbe admired Rav Zevins geonois and talent there are beautiful letters between the Rebbe and him in the Hagada,the rebbe even asked for his critic on the Sefer Hoaerchim.He was involved in the USSR with the Rayatz work there he was called Rashi in the hidden letters.

Anonymous said...

Anon
ask the Kamenetzky family,
if they dont answer, check the Vilensky book

Anonymous said...

Yumy,
The Chabad Rebieim didnt spend their time of the day winning the Chabad dynasty from other family members.These Rabonim were people of influence in certain circles and the Rebieim involved them in their avodas hakodesh.
Please stop putting in your 2 cents where it doesnt belong

yumy said...

"Yumy: this has to stop. Really, you're sounding like a paranoid fool.'"

Paranoid or fool??

Funny to hear this from a guy who can never,ever admit when Lubavitch is wrong,even in very glaring instances.At the same time this fellow (you)is pouncing on everyone else for perceived insults.

Leinyoneinu:Nothing I said about Chabads penchant to "score" with choshuveh rabbonim is paranoid.Every shaliach would pat himself on the shoulder if he could schlep someone to the Rebbe.A talmid chochom with general appeal was especially important
Look, you yourself are the self appointed watchdog to defend Lubavitch .
From you mission statement :" The purpose of this blog was to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere. "
So, you yourself claim that Chabad is "bashed" in other words Chabad needs to "defend" itself.What is a better defense for Chabad then showing that some respectable rabbis come to a farbrengen?
What "tsimmes" did Lubavitch make when R'Yoshe Ber Soloveichik came for one farbrengen!
Ad hayom Lubavitch are waving around some correspondence that R'Shlomo Zalman had with the Rebbe (not to much actually)how R'Shlomo Zalman was maskim to write a letter or a shtickel torah for some Lubavitch publication honoring a milestone in the Rebbes life.
Without getting into names Lubavitch managed to schlep a couple of talmidei chachomim to be "eye candy" in farbrengens.Usually they had a very schvacheh oilom and it felt good to be pampered,after all Lubavitch know how to "schmeer up" people when it's kedai for them.

An interesting example of the inability of Chabad to get any talmidei chachomim of import from the non Lubavitch world is the Yarchei Kalla in Gan Yisroel, Upstate.This is not "stam" a yarchei kalla, no siree This is a yarchei kalla "Haeylomy"! Pssshh!
They can't get any non Lubobs to come!


So who is the paranoid, eh?

anon3 said...

Please tell us Yumy,are you working on some sort of a doctoral thesis about the shortcomings of Lubavitch? Iv'e seen many "bashers" in my day but you seem to think that you have taken upon yourself the mantel of the GR"A in your obsessive compulsive desire to denigrate Lubavitch at every opportunity .I'm not saying that some of your "constructive/destructive" criticism is not valid but hey all sectors of the Torah world have their faults.Lubavitch does not have a monopoly on chesroines.Don't you, a "ben Taireh", have anything better to do with your life then to dwell on this blog site and nitpick? Come on ,genug shoin.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
As Shneur has mentioned Zevin and Telushkin were Chabad Chasidim, they were in Chabad because they are from Chabad backgrounds,period. and if you don't understand the difference then you are a certified fool as the baal hablog certified already,
now, as to your new diatribe that is contradicting that first Chabad did have RJBS and then you say they don't have gedolim,
they used have real Rabonim the first years, as Reb Pinchas Hirschprung as a Talmid Chochom as Reb Yakov and Rav Ruderman, Yalles and other Rabonim, by now its minhag avoisinie beyodieni as the aguda convention, that don't have nobody outside of the Novominsker and Shechter with the gorgeous hadras ponim,

yumy said...

Anon3,
Well.Firstly yasher koiach!
Seriously.For admitting that Lubavitch has some issues.Once one knows of a problem there is a chance to do something about it.

Actually I don't see where I have said anything which is over the top.
Of course I may have made factual mistakes or been a bit aggressive in the heat of the moment.

Look at another thread where discussions about Nusach hatfilla came up.I did not attack Nusach Ari,and who am I to even try.All I said was that I am proud of personally davening nusach Ashkenaz, a nusach followed by all the yidden of Ashkenazic backround for many hundreds of years.In answer to that I get horribly attacked by anonymous ignoramuses.This appears to be the norm in many a Chabad blog.I mean the type of open hatred that I've seen on Chabad On Line and Shturem is shocking!

It seems that many Lubavitch posters would rather deal with Snags shooting their mouth off with outright lies about Lubavitch, then deal with someone like myself, that tries to be objective and criticizes based on what I believe an objective non partisan person would agree with.

Let's discuss for example Rabbis Zevin and Telushkin: What is wrong with pointing out that both these respected men were most probably not card carrying "chasidim".They both did not grow up in Lubavitch and were great men in their own right and older than the Rebbe.

yumy said...

"As Shneur has mentioned Zevin and Telushkin were Chabad Chasidim, they were in Chabad because they are from Chabad backgrounds,period. and if you don't understand the difference then you are a certified fool as the baal hablog certified already,"

Learn to read!
I never questioned their Chabad attachment,I questioned whether they became Lubavitcher, followers of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.For example Rav Zevin was strongly Zionistic,at a time that Lubavitch was still anti or agnostic.I also said there is no proof from R'Nisen Telushkin sitting oiven on in a farbrengen, since the Lubavitcher have always put a lot of effort into trying to schlep rabbonim to farbrengens.In fact,Rav Telushkins son,Joseph went to Yeshiva Of Flatbush as a child and later on to YU (i THINK)he is a Modern Orthodox Jew, no connection to Lubavitch.Obviously that does not have to mean his grandfather was not a full fledged Lubavitcher.Still....

Zaman said...

"It's vertlach that he would say while giving a shiur.Maybe there is more but I don't remember.In it, you see how Rav Telushkin was so not your classic Lubavitcher of today.His vertlach were the very universal kind"

How silly can you get Yumi? Of course his drush was universal, after all he was a rav of a general kehilah in Brownsville. He published a drush-sefer in several volumes, like other rabonim. At the same time he came reguarly to farbrengens on weekdays, fully idntifying as a Chabad chossid. Rav Zevin would personally attend the hook-ups of the Rebbe's farbrengens, and davened in the Chabad Shuhl in Mea She'orim here he used to farbreng with the people. He was the one who pushed all Eretz Yisroel chassidim to accept the Rebbe as nossi right after Yud Shvat 5710. He had a close relationship, extensive correspondence, with the Rebbe still from the 1920s in Russia, and served as the Rebe's emissary for many projects in Israel with certain rabbinic and political bodies. You obviously have no clue about either of these two.

Anonymous said...

Yumy,
Neither did anybody say that he was the biggest chosid, he was already a alter yid with his affiliations and his life was set up, but when Chabad came to these shores he got closer, but wasn't the Noi sukah on the dais as you harp and bark just to get your vicious points across.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
התהילח החמים והנלהבים שקבלתי
מעידים על זח. ביחוד שמח
לבי בעידוד שנתן לי כבוד קרושת ארבצ"ר מחר"מ שניאורסאן שליט"א
מליבאמחן, שאחר קבלו את הכרך חראשון חאיץ בי כמה פעמים
להדפיס את הכרך השני, וכשיצא חכרך חשני והי' לפני עיניו, כתב
לי בזח הלשון : "ספרו "התורה וחקץלפ" חלק ב' זה עתה נתקבל.
ובעברי בין דפיו נהניתי ממה שכל כך דרהיתי מכת"ר שיוציאו לאור.
יהי רצת שלאוי"ט יזכה להגדיל
Sorry for the bad paste job.
Its all from the prize chosid, he was probably paid by the chabad Pr Org, to write it.

Anonymous said...

Yumy
ושופטיו, דור דור ונביאיו.
כ"ק אדמו"ר טהר"מ שליט"א מלובאוויץ אמר : מצוות תוכחה
היא מצוה של בדיקה וביעור חמץ, דהיינו פשפוש במעשים וביעור
הרע שבו בעצמו ואף אצל אחריננ וכשם שבבדיקת חמץ אפילו
אם לא מצא כלום אין ברכתו לבטלה, כן בתוכחה אפילו אין פועלים
אין דבריו לבטלה. מצוות תוכחה מקיים בין כ
rav Telushkin in his sefer
Paid for by Chabad PR org.

Not Brisk said...

"that they're covering up their own crud"

Is that supposed to be a pun on the old 'yused' joke?

Anonymous said...

Regarding Telushkin
I erred since I thought that he started knowing the Rebbe Rayatz only in the USA but in his sefer he writes that he was involved with the FR Chasidim in their mesiras nefesh work as the following story
אדמו"ר נ"ע כי בנפשו הוא אבל לא התחשב עם דבר.
פעם אחת בחצות הלילה והנה דופקים על דלתי )הייתי אז רב
בפוכוביץ פלך מינמק(. פחד נורא נפל עלי כי הייתי בטוח שכבר שלחו
מן הממשלה לאמרני כמו יתר חברי. פתחתי את הדלת בידים רועדות
והנה נכנמ אברך מעוטר בזקן ופאות, הוליך אותי לחדר פנימי, ממר
להיק טצנריוםר )כתלממףו דב מתכוורםה הוגחוןדר יוםא מלרא להיי :ו להנרוי א ללךא מללהמחדזייםק היאות ממולבמבדיםי
והולכים על הבתים ללמד שנים שלשה תינוקות שנתכנמו לשש, )
להחזיק את המקוה ולתמוך בידי פועלים עניים שלא יוכרחו לחלל , .
את השבת. ולא דיבר עוד דבר. הוא מיהר ללכת מעירי לערים
אחרות. וכן הי' מאז נוהג מזמן לזמן להביא במתר עזרה לרבנים
גם למחייתם הם, למחיית שוחטים ששחטו בחשאי, ולתורה, למקואות ) ל י ' ולפועלים שומרי שבת. וכן

Anonymous said...

Anon 3
this Yumy is holech bedarchoi shel Boluk, he just is sitting on the mountain of torah and is Mekatrag on a kehila beyisroel 24/7

Anonymous said...

"DISCLAIMER - The following is not meant to attack the American Yated Ne'eman, a wholly independent newspaper which only shares the name with its Israeli counterpart. The proceeding lines are directed towards the Israeli paper only. Thank You.]"

Get with it pal. The english Yated is considerd 'Very Krum' in the yeshivish circles like Lakewood, Brisk, etc. The owner is one of the most, if not THE most despised person in those circles. He panders to them, wishes he was them, makes believe he is them, writes that he is them. But they all see straight thru him for what he is, and have basicly asked him to pack his bags (jewish press style).

I was at a Lakewood wedding recently and saw him come in, the oilam was snobbing him out big time. People were laughing and jeering at him to his face.
Bachurim were dancing next to him as they would to the the local meshugana.

Anonymous said...

right

and he laughs back at them, all the way to the bank...

Anonymous said...

Ann said "and he laughs back at them, all the way to the bank..."
True, but he will never get them to stop hating him. Money wont help him with that.

yumy said...

Well,well, R'hirshel!!
You called me a paranoid fool.
Let me ask you who posted the following:ולמה דוננער לא רצה (כמעט) להודות שזה שמבקר אותם בכלא הוא "חב"דסקער?"

So I listened and this is an almost exact translation from the Yiddish:"Every day someone comes to visit,tries to visit,someone, a rov A VERY CHOSHEVEH ROV,A CHABADSKER,RAV EDRY,THAT TRIES TO COME IN,he cannot bring food but can bring sefurem and letters"

All I can say is you are a very, very paranoid person!!
(Also, though you accused Gil Student of being heartless in this issue, you have shown,jumping in like a katz in zauer milech,bringing in dirty politics that never ever even started to happen, that the plight of these boys does not even rir on your pipik.Any issue is only worth anything if Chabad can look good.Feh)

Feivel ben Mishael said...

"I was at a Lakewood wedding recently and saw him come in, the oilam was snobbing him out big time. People were laughing and jeering at him to his face.
Bachurim were dancing next to him as they would to the the local meshugana."

Wow sounds alot like a certain sugya in gittin.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

You're funny, YUMY. Listen to it again, see the term he uses and how he mumbles it. Really, you're beginning to sound like an apologist for all haters, and Dunner is just that.

yumy said...

Hirshel,
I'm becoming more and more convinced that you are....let me think of a good word....Yeah,paranoid? Stam a guy looking unter der erd to bashmitz? To get brownie points, in a "war" that is mostly in your mind?
All of the above?
I listened quite a number of times.
There is totally, absolutely nothing in his words against Chabad!!

You need a daily fix of "hate".You cannot run your life, job,family without it.Apparently.You "see" it everywhere.You need to see it, you want to see it.
Aderaba, let's see if anyone, the biggest chosid and mekushar sees anything wrong with what was said.
I'm not holding my breath.

yumy said...

Another thing that bothers me.
You are going after a fellow who has had unbelievable tzorehs in the last few years.He himself mentions them.
The loss of his unbelievable baal tzedoka vochesed,the loss of his wife, the loss of his father, being ina matzav of pikuach nefesh from yenneh machaleh and he still has pulled out of it and able to work on behalf of these boys.
And what does your twisted mind focus on?
A slight of Chabad that never, ever happened!How much rishes?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I am not going after anybody. I commented on ANOTHER site, a one-line comment at that.

I'm very sorry his son died, but this has nothing to do with it, other than the fact that he mizex him into it...

It happened, believe me. He never misses a chance to toot his own horn, as is quite obvious from the video clip. You don't call a Lubavitcher Yungerman by an Asifa such as that a "Chabadsker." And if you're doing it because you supposedly LOVE Chabad say it loud, don't mumble it as if it were a dirty word.

schneur said...

Zevin and Telushkin both joined Lubavitch after the death of the last Nasi of Kopust who was the Bobroisker rebbe Reb Shmaryahu Schneersohn who died in 1924 or 1926 I just don't remember which year. Zevin was active in the underground work in the Soviet Union , with the Rayaatz Telsuhkin was active in Chabad in America.
I don;t measure degrees of hiskashrus maybe they were not like some of the modern day Chayale Bais David, perhaps they wore ties and bent back hats , and their shirts were tucked in , but they were considered Lubavitcher in good standing.
As far as children go many Lubavitchers in good standing had children sons and sons in law who removed themselves from Chabad like the Rashag, R. Moshe Ber Rivkin, Rabbi Yankev Landau (son in law) and others.

yumy said...

"I'm very sorry his son died, but this has nothing to do with it, other than the fact that he mizex him into it..."

You sound sorry.As if.


"It happened, believe me. He never misses a chance to toot his own horn"

Repeating tragedies that happened to him is "tooting ones horn"?


"And if you're doing it because you supposedly LOVE Chabad say it loud, don't mumble it as if it were a dirty word."

I don't know if he LOVES Chabad.By you you either LOVE or Hate, there is no objective response to anything.
He did not mumble anything.He spoke in front of HUNDREDS of people."Mumble"??.
He called him a VERY CHOSHUVE ROV!


This kinnus had nothing to do with Chabad.R'Abba mentioned that the bochur told him that Lubavitcher rabbi tried to come in to him every day.He meant it as a compliment

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I was talking about the part where he told all present that he travels all over the world helping Rabbonim. That was tooting his own horn. But I grant him that.

I still say that had he wanted to he could've been a little more respectful.

yumy said...

Hirshel,
All you did was prove some of the less complimentary stuff said about you.

One thing I now don't disagree with you about: You hear what YOU WANT TO HEAR! You heard him "mumble", you heard him talk in a way that was not complimentary.None of that was objectively true.But I cannot argue with you about it.Apparently you REALLY think what you saying is true.They call it a "baal dimyon" "a posul le'eydus"

Your last line: "I still say that had he wanted to he could've been a little more respectful."

Was this kinnus about Chabad??Did you want him to stop addressing the subject and go into a long megilla about Chabad? He called him a "choshuveh rov, a very chshuveh rov that tries to visit every day".Not enough for your standards? Standards where chushuveh rabbonim are called "Elyashiv" at best, or with toyteh klolos at worst.
Funny thing is that from an almost 15 minute drosho, what you "heard" and focused on was about 15 seconds.
Needless to say that nobody else in the forum even acknowledged your paranoid post.
Let's see you post the clip and see if even the biggest mekushar sees what you "saw"

Stop demanding what you don't give to others.

anon3 said...

"As far as children go many Lubavitchers in good standing had children sons and sons in law who removed themselves from Chabad like the Rashag, R. Moshe Ber Rivkin, Rabbi Yankev Landau (son in law) and others."
Rav Moshe DuBer Rivkin admittedly has a SIL who is R"L a farbrente Misnaged, but his his Son Rav Sholom Rivkin, head of the Vad Hoir in S- Louis Mo.and now needs R"R because of very serious illness, never made a move without consulting the Rebbe RAYAT"Z and later the Rebbe.He has hundreds if not thousands of letters from both Rabeim that deal with every aspect of his daily behavior.He is also a gaon muflug in Nigleh and Chassidus.

Anonymous said...

FBI made your day!
All those "Snags and non-believer Sephardim and Chagsnikim, paying for not accepting malchus

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

wow

there really are some sick people out there...

Let me guess; you're the same moron who said I was making a party when R' Noah Weinberg died, right?

Anonymous said...

You probably did
He was not mekabil malches after all

Anonymous said...

Cha"v the lubavitcher rebbe spoke and wrote many times that cholilo to say that hakomas hamedino is aschalta degeulo but leheipech it is a frie medino against torah

Mendel