Wednesday, December 31, 2008

Saratoga or Berlin?

Let me preface this comment by saying this: Much has been made of the fact that many in the Jewish community won't rest until they somehow disprove Chabad and the Rebbe completely. I'm not sure what "disproving" Chabad They'll say anything, no matter how outlandish, just to prove that they're right. will accomplish, but that seems to be their goal. I guess that way the biggest obstruction to their existence will go away, and they'll live comfortably. The following comment shows how silly you can sound when you try and do something like that at the wrong time and to the wrong person and group. So please, I realize that Berlin and Paris were not Boro Park and Williamsburg, but try not to let your mind wander too much...


Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Zalman Sorotzkin and Rav Shmuel Dovid Unger of Nitra in Mareinbad. Yes, I know, they were meeting to discuss very important matters.


Reb Elchonon HY"D

"Anonymous" Commenting on Circus Tent Blinded By Light

"Duvid:

What a chutzpa and ferdishkeit to write (on) the Rebbe that the 12 years (he spent in Berlin and Paris) are a black hole in his life. Can I ask you on Rebbes that most of their lives were traveling (and) jet-setting to expensive vacations - even prewar gedolim - while the Rebbe was sitting in his cubicle talking to yiddishe kinder for night after night plus suffering along the plight of Russian Jewry even July and August when the New Yorker tzadikim were in Sharon Springs, Saratoga , White Lake and the lovely Swiss Alps or Teves and Shevat, when all the tzadikim were in Palm Dessert and Miami and wrote tens of thousands letters as the Moreh Nevuchim of our generation. Giving Full shabbos afternoons farbrengens on Rambam, Zohar Rashi Al hatorah while most people were burping from the chulent effect. You can follow almost all his life and see the multifaceted life he led that was unique in Jewish history."


The Munkacser Rov and Rav Meir Shapira


The Imrei Emes and The Beis Yisroel with Chassidim. How did he always have such an entourage with him where ever he traveled? Did they all have money for such trips?


Anonymous continues:

"Did you ever see the deep kabboloh discussions he had with his great father in the years of Paris and Berlin, or his reshimos from those years a smorgasboard of Bavli, Yerushalmi, Midrashim , kabala and chassidus, or the letters that his father begs him to stop with the taneisim. Not too many yungeliet like these were walking on the holy streets of Warsaw, or Grossverdein and not even in Belz or Ger. The Rebbes that didnt produce that amount of torah have rather a black hole in there resumes." עכ"ל Basically, what the commenter is saying is that we see what became of the 12-year "black hole," namely utter devotion to Klal Yisroel with very little regard to his own well-being. Vacations are important in a man's life, and especially so in the life of an Ish Tziburi, the Frierdige Rebbe also traveled to spas and sanitariums to heal his broken body, but the Rebbe saw himself as one who has no time for such trivial matters. There are Jews that need to be helped and Torah that needs to be learned and shared with Both suffer when one travels. Yes, you can gather strength by walking in Miami or relaxing in Martha's Vineyard, or seeing G-d's Alps, but what do you tell those people that need your help at that time?!



Reb Chaim Ayzer and Reb Shimon Shkop


Reb Baruch Ber and Reb Aron Kotler


The Sadigerrer Rebbe and son


We need to realize once and for all that there are some people that are beyond our comprehension, and yes, beyond the comprehension of those who truly Hurreved in Teyreh for many decades. There are some things that even continuous toil in Torah cannot provide. I say that concerning myself as well, but especially to those of you here who seem to have a mental barrier when it comes to Chabad and the Rebbe. Yet, it doesn't take that much seychel to understand that despite what your 9th grade Rebbe or older brother may tell you, anybody who had any contact with the Rebbe had at least common decency and respect for him. To attach your own fantazyes to a man - let alone a Rebbe - is beyond wrong, and the above comment shines a harsh light on that fact. I know that we beat this topic to death, but some of you need to be reminded of this quite often, for some reason. I apologize to the Lubavitchers among you who think I stoop too low here by allowing certain comments to pass, but sometimes that's what's needed to educate the ones who know no better.

173 comments:

Anonymous said...

Tzig I can't tell if you are trying to imply the "Roshei Yeshiva" lived it up like the Rebbes.

There is a story, Rav Shlomo Heiman was a R"M in Baranovich working for Rav Elchonon, and after numerous complaints to Rav Elchonon that he can't feed his family. Rav Elchonon responded he'll give Rav Shlomo the same salary he gets himself. The next week Rav Shlomo got an even smaller check.

Yankle said...

HT said,"I know that we beat this topic to death, but some of you need to be reminded of this quite often, for some reason."

Yes we are always reminded by the fact that you obsess on this issue over and over and over, that you never got over the fact that you were farchapt.
Like alot of the farchapter chevre (mostly from the 70's & 80's, there is hardly any from after that), there is a real OCD issue going on by them when it comes to the clash between Chabad and their roots.
Maybe subconsciously they really know the truth, ah!....but then theres something called pride. Pride is stronger than fire, water, and the greatest armies in the world. Pride even opens blogs to pile on top of what they are too proud to admit, even to themselves.
And yes pride will sometimes even spit at G-D (kvyachol).

Hirshel Tzig said...

you kid only yourself if you think there's something to return to were it not for pride...

Yankle said...

"you kid only yourself if you think there's something to return to were it not for pride..."

Are you saying that your roots is "nothing" to return to?
Well unless your roots are frei, you again let classic Chabad Ahavas Yisroel Shine. (BTW your very good at that. You do that often).

Hirshel Tzig said...

my roots were destroyed by the Rebbe machines and their schools.

Yankle said...

"my roots were destroyed by the Rebbe machines and their schools."

Keep that Chabad Ahavas Yisroel Shining!!

Hirshel Tzig said...

you're just gonna repeat that nonsense, or you'll have coherent to say?

Is that not the case? Can you argue?

Yankle said...

you're just gonna repeat that nonsense, or you'll have coherent to say?

Repeat nonsense? Is it not true that the sect you joined, and their outreach work is largely based on the concept of Ahavas Yisroel-"love your fellow Jew"?
Those that arent involved in kiruv, and want to sit and learn torah are selfish, lacking Ahavas yisroel. I have hear this hundreds of times from Lubavitchers, and I have heard very strong hints of this, if not clear statemants to this affect straight from your rebbes mouth. (One example that comes to mind is in the Rebbe-R'Kahana meeting. Note the total shock of the rebbe at the idea that a yid should want to sit and learn Hashems Torah in that vid.)
So you guys PR the living daylights out of the rest of us on how much Ahavas Yisroel you have, while at the same time you totaly step on everyone else (yes,its all that love).
You Tzig fell for these guys based on this great concept, and here you are today bashing every frum group thats not you.
Calling their way "nothing".
The point is; youll love any jew as long as hes living with a shiktza, and will be great Chabad bait.
Then when someone points it out... THEY cant argue?

And BTW I have no idea what you mean by rebbe machines.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I made a point about my roots no longer existing as a group. Care to address that and not your foolish thesis? Or is sticking to a topic too arduous a task for you?

If not then don't bother me.

Anonymous said...

Yankle
If kiruv is not more important then torah, then what is all about that Lev leachim business? I see from time to time huge ballrooms in Benai Berak filled with thousand of benai torah being lectured by Rav Shtienman and all others gedolim of the importance of this Mitzva
Please explain me since I am perplexed what about the bitul torah?

nahare upashte said...

poisek hador horav hagaon shmuel wosner shlta spoke on the telephone at the atzeres hashloishim and said ( i heard him say it and this is the quote from hamodia ) shluchei chabad chavivin lifnei hamokom. he was marich on this subject. ofcourse some people over here respect the gedoilim ad chatzi hamalchus - not when they chas vesholom praise chabad and their shluchim.
note that kalmy was very quiet when confronted about reb moishe feinstein being machmir to drink only cholov yisroel.

Anonymous said...

If only you went so crazy when someone far beyond your comprehension was referred to as "worse than Hitler!"

What a hypocrite you are.

Anonymous said...

Your rebbe was so obsessed with Kuved And Gavveh that any encounter that was not preponderated was avoided that's why he didn't go for vacations, the biggest masmidim went for a change of environment, because they were not petrified that some one might point out to him that emperor has no clothes on,and your lowlife remark: "There are some things that even continuous toil in Torah cannot provide"is some thing that's was and is common talk of the people who have no sheiches to hashem and his torah

Anonymous said...

Question.

Was the Rebbe ever challenged about anything for the last 70 years of his life?

The Rebbe was surrounded all his life by yes-men, and was never questioned, he never had his feet to the fire. Contrast that with Litvishe Gedolim constantly argued and fought in learning to an extent that would shock most of today generation. I don't think it is a ma'alah that the Rebbe didn't drei zich with other gedolim, other than with JB and RYH in berlin. He would've gain (in my opinion) a lot from it. The Rebbe in a certain sense lived in his own bubble, a very busy and active one, but nevertheless zayn aigine daled amos. Was it because of Ga'ava? Who is to judge, but c'mon can't you give him any credit, he wasn't a behayme c"v.

Anonymous said...

to the last 2 idiots
Every sicha or mamar that the rebbe gave was chalenged by chassidim there are 100's of Tzetlach of chassidim quiestioning the rebbe on every chidush that are said,starting from the Chozrim to a little young boy, no godol in our lifetime was out to explain himself Kakoton Kagodol, He pushed to establish the Haoros Kovtzim,
that is torah should be questioned, again bist a ferd and shut up

Anonymous said...

Anon
Where does the story of emperor clothes pertain here, or you are just spewing words

Anonymous said...

"Every sicha or mamar that the rebbe gave was chalenged by chassidim there are 100's of Tzetlach of chassidim quiestioning the rebbe on every chidush that are said"
show me one pirsum that CONCLUDES that the rebbe might be wrong, no one dared to come to the conclusion that the rebbe has a mistake
Chana Gurari dared and was beaten to...silence

Hirshel Tzig said...

So the Rebbe was never challenged because he didn't take vacations?

Have you any idea how many Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshivah, Askonim, ad stam yidden he met with all kinds of issues and problems?

So the only way to be really challengd is by yelling at each other at Moetzes meetings?

Was the CI challenged? was the Brisker Rov challenged?

Did the Kletzker and Ponovizher Roshei Yeshivah stand for bachurim challenging even sevoros during a shiur, let alone policy?!

Anonymous said...

>>Every sicha or mamar that the rebbe gave was chalenged by chassidim there are 100's of Tzetlach of chassidim quiestioning the rebbe on every chidush that are said,starting from the Chozrim to a little young boy, no godol in our lifetime was out to explain himself Kakoton Kagodol, He pushed to establish the Haoros Kovtzim,
that is torah should be questioned, again bist a ferd and shut up

This is incredibly hateful ignorant. You clearly never attended a shiur in your entire life outside of Chabad. If anyone is a ferd here, its you.

Go learn how to spell and get a job, you dimwit.

Anonymous said...

>>Was the CI challenged? was the Brisker Rov challenged?
>>Did the Kletzker and Ponovizher Roshei Yeshivah stand for bachurim challenging even sevoros during a shiur, let alone policy?!

YES!!! Do you ANYTHING about these men?

Hirshel Tzig said...

yes, I do, and I know that they didn't take kindly to it, especially the former during a shiur. yes, I know it was ריתחא דאורייתא

The Brisker Rov was challenged? by whom? I know they ignored him, and used him when they needed him, but they never challenged. But with them it's Ok, because they had Daas Torah...

Anonymous said...

every person who met with the rebbe was coached prior to the meeting with the ethica expected from him, and was informed that there are buchirim waiting for him aftrwards who would like to TRANSCRIBE the interaction with the rebbe, every one got the hint very well
I remember when R, Y, Krinsky was banned for a few weeks because he dared to disagree with the rebbe every rosh yeshiva even both satmer rebbes today when they give shier in yeshiva are confronted with unrestricted shales
such interaction are healthy to a sheltered persons intellect

Hirshel Tzig said...

anonymous

Lokshen Mit Yo'ech

nothing but a big pack of lies. Nobody got coached, unless you were some foreign dignitary that had no idea. Many people would refuse to tell the bachurim anything, and to make as if the bachurim outside were covering for the rebbe is ridiculous.

So what you're saying is that every Rebbe when he says Torah Friday Night gets interrupted with questions by Chassidim? pssssh. News to anybody here.

A Shiur in Yeshivah, yes, but the Rebbe was not a Rosh Yeshivah, and the Satmar Rebbe when he delivers his long shiurim on 21 Kislev and such also says it without interruption.

You people really have to stop with the hallucinations.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gf6FOnt60U

This is not the exception, and it was the same with RY's and bochurim too.

This is something the Rebbe unfortunately never lived with.

Anonymous said...

>>The Brisker Rov was challenged? by whom? I know they ignored him, and used him when they needed him, but they never challenged. But with them it's Ok, because they had Daas Torah...

Thank you for allowing me to be dan lkav zechus. I always thought you were a sonei yisroel. Now I see its just a product of your ignorance.

Hirshel Tzig said...

only in Litvishe places would bachurim scream and yell and zeedel each other like that. Never would you see a Chassidisher bachur do that. Besides, these were two colleagues, not Rav and Talmid.

Anonymous said...

>>A Shiur in Yeshivah, yes, but the Rebbe was not a Rosh Yeshivah, and the Satmar Rebbe when he delivers his long shiurim on 21 Kislev and such also says it without interruption.

R' Aharon gives shiurim in Litvish yeshivos and is frequently interrupted. There is a famous story that happened in South Fallsburg, but that is for another time. The Rebbe was never placed under such scrutiny. And, it is very obvious that his editors checked and embellished the maareh mekomos in his sichos which were given without interruption. The rebbe was reputed to be very intelligent, but never as a huge masmid. How could he be, if he is always meeting with people?

Hirshel Tzig said...

who was the BR challenged by? tell the ignorant ones like me, please.

Anonymous said...

>>only in Litvishe places would bachurim scream and yell and zeedel each other like that. Never would you see a Chassidisher bachur do that. Besides, these were two colleagues, not Rav and Talmid.

So now its a chisaron! Hillarious. It is a well known fact that this CONTINUES to happen in yeshivos. And that it was very much dominant in a shiur by someone you particularly hate.

Anonymous said...

>>who was the BR challenged by? tell the ignorant ones like me, please.

The better question is, who did not challenge him. You clearly know nothing about his shiur "style", his talmidim or personality.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm not talking about shiur, I'm talking policy. By Whom was the BR challenged on policy?

Hirshel Tzig said...

And that it was very much dominant in a shiur by someone you particularly hate.

as were his very בכבודיגע responses to the bachurim....

Anonymous said...

>>as were his very בכבודיגע responses to the bachurim....

You obviously know nothing about the man.

Anonymous said...

"these were two colleagues, not Rav and Talmid."

1)It goes on between Rav and Talmid in yeshivas all the time, at least it used to. Kach he darka shel torah.

2)The Rebbe did not have any "colleagues" in his adult life.

Anonymous said...

Whoever wants to see how the CI camp approached someone that challenged the CI, should please look in the works of the holy Stiepler how he attacks Reb Avrham Chaim Noe.

Anonymous said...

lubavitcher bucharim zeedel each other on other subjects not torah
that does not make them more choshev

Anonymous said...

So the difference is that the Roshie Yeshivohs are challenged by the Shiur vs. the Rebbe was challenged after the Shiur, am I still missing something,
If my spelling is incorrect it doesnt matter to the discussion, Its just I dont now how to use spelling check.

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe was challenged many times by talmidie chachomim as Rav Hirschprung,Rav Elberg, Rav Zevin and by the great of the greats Kechad Mikamoie Rav Hutner, so whats this challenge hangover?

Anonymous said...

>>The Rebbe was challenged many times by talmidie chachomim as Rav Hirschprung,Rav Elberg, Rav Zevin and by the great of the greats Kechad Mikamoie Rav Hutner, so whats this challenge hangover?

Right, like the Rebbe would ever let that happen.

schneur said...

This post is so kinderish one does not know if to comment, or how to start.
So now we know the Rebbe was in Berlin and Paris "zu lernen" he never attended the universities in Berlin and Paris. Never attended lectures, or sat for exams or went through all the bureacratic procedures students do. He of course was exempt for writing any serious papers or undertaking academic projects. Doing any reading for the course Cholilo vechas !
All that happened is the following :his father in law paid the tuition, the rebbe "hot gezetzen und gelernt gantzene teg "and the rebbe was awarded his degrees. Gantz feyn. If you never went to university you may believe that if you wish ! IF the rebbe studied Tore all day why the need to Klompersht attend college ? Lehagdill es hatrashk ?
The implication that Reb Elchanan was vacatioing is beyond comment. Finally its a "shod "that I have a shtikel mentchiskayt left in me , Otherwise I would post on a different forum the Rebbe's daily schedule in Berlin as Barry Gourary recalled it in 1929.
I guess there was no place for a masmid like the Rebbe to sit and learn in Warsaw, Lodz,Riga or even Vilna.
No one in YU circles claims the Rav didn't do academic work in Berlin of course he continued learning but he also did academic work and partook of the cultural life in Berlin. The rebbe needless to say also did.
Frankly I do get the point of your comments.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Schneur

Please. I know it's Nakba day for you, but there's really no need to show your pain בפרהסיא

Anonymous said...

Rav Hutner was once asked if it was true the Rebbe sat in classes with a sefer in front of him, to shich he responded "Lernen un a yarmulke?"

CB = Fools said...

.... whereas he learned Maharal in Berlin

נישטא ווער ס'זאל לאכען

Hutner looked like Al Capone, the Rebbe had a full beard and never took off his beret. You judge for yourself who was the Tzaddik here.

Anonymous said...

No Cb'er believes he learned Mahral in the four months he was in Berlin.

A full beard? Most professors in Berlin's beards were bigger.

Rav Hutner look like most of Yeshivas Slabodka.

Anonymous said...

Chabadniks claiming Berliners changing history.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Yankle said...

Tzig ignorantly said: "Did the Kletzker and Ponovizher Roshei Yeshivah stand for bachurim challenging even sevoros during a shiur, let alone policy?!"

Hershel Ive been following your blog for a couple of months now. And although I am litvish I have thought that in you I finaly saw one Chabadsker that was "in the Know" and understood a little about the yeshiva world and the gedolim of "aamul". I thought you were educated about what goes on in the litvish and other frum communties. I thought maybe you were not like the rest of the brainwashed bumper stickers, ranting the stupdity they were programed to rant.
And then you made the above ignorant statmant.
Do you actualy know anything about the litvisher Roshei yeshiva?
Rav Schach was famous for his love of bachurim "hocking in" during shiur. He was famous for stopping the shiur midway, after DAYS of preperation, if someone would shlug him up in middle. He would get down from his shtender and say that the bachur was right and he was wrong.
Reb Shmuel Birnbaum would BEG the oilam to challenge him!
Reb Ahron loved it when someone hocked in, you just had better know what you were talking about.
And all those here that know anything about the litvisher yeshivos know the list goes on and on.

So tzig why dont you just delete the stupit statmant you made. Before all those that didnt see what you wrote will see it and realise what an ignoramus you are.

berish said...

"Hutner looked like Al Capone,"
Watch your language!
Don't ask for respect if you don't give basic respect to others.

shmilu said...

Hirshl!
The pictures are great!
(The post is one of the dumbest you've ever written.No other words for it.)

Hirshel Tzig said...

dumbest? my part or the commenter's?

chaim said...

"Did the Kletzker and Ponovizher Roshei Yeshivah stand for bachurim challenging even sevoros during a shiur, let alone policy?!"

I read this and my blood boiled over!!

You show you know zero about them.Rav Shach publicly closed his gemora in the middle of a shiur kloly a couple of times when a talmid managed to "fregop" the shiur!!!
R'Ahrons shiurim were fighting matches bemilchamto shel toira.

I'm really surprised you don't know these simple things.

Yankle said...

Shtika kihohda.
Thank you HT.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yankle
believe it or not I can't respond to every comment within a minute's notice. I do have other things to do, no matter how intelligent you think your comment is.

Chaim: cool your blood a bit, you missed what I meant to say.

Yankle said...

Chaim I think Tzig had enough embarrassmant for one day.
Leave him to let the acid dry off his face.

shmilu said...

Hirshl,
Sorry
I don't want to be nasty, but I meant your post.

Hirshel Tzig said...

yes, but a large part of it was written by a commenter. Which part did you not like?

Chaim and Yankle: I rtead all the books about the Roshei Yeshivos and I know all about the tummels during the shiur. So please, before you pat yourself on the back think for 2 minutes into what I meant when I said that.

Yankle said...

Ok, lets hear what did we "miss" about what you meant say?

(This is gonna be funny)

Hirshel Tzig said...

later. I need to work a bit and then do my prayers.

Mottel said...

Love the pictures from my dear Druskininkai . . .

Yankle said...

Tzig why cant you just admit that what you said is totaly false?
It doesnt make a diff. what point you wanted to bring out, the statemant you said is an obvious lie, and we all know it!
Face up to it and admit it, instead of digging yourself into the grave deeper.

schneur said...

C"mon the people you not so subtly blast are those she mi piyhem anu Chayyim - the Gerer Rebbe, Reb Elchonon, Lutzker rav What gives ?

Anonymous said...

and then do my prayers.

and the rebbe will answer you, have no fear

Anonymous said...

Without getting into the fray (hamenavel im menuval misnabel) I strongly suggest: 1) Learn the Rebbe's Toirah (either lishmoh OR al menass lekanter (ch"v)) but at least learn it and be familiar with it. If you are a soineh then you don't have to worry about getting "farchapt" sina mekalkeless vechu' but at least you'll know what you're dealing with. 2) Familiarize yourself with what a Rebbe is bichlal (and for that matter a true RY.

p.s. 1)A yid who didn't sleep (as is well known) should not be judged by some pachus for hasmoda - not withstanding his intelligence.

2) Shneur: I'm a bit surprised.
3) I'm sorry to hear that a bachur was able to shlug up the Avi Ezri in a shiur. I'm impressed that he realized. But most great RY (Litvish and Chassidish, never mind a Rebbe, couldn't get shlugged up because they knew/know how to learn....
Umesaymim betoiv ein toiv ela Toirah!

Yom Tov Sheini

Arthur said...

Reb Hershil
Even though blogging definitely has it's positive uses,I sometimes wonder whether the negative outweighs the positive.
We develop a gradual but insidious poisoning of our psyche that less din veless dayan.That there's no accountability.Blogging gives us the opportunity to hide behind our anonymity to express things that we normally would not say or write which can be positive but more often then not we resort to distortion,profanity,denigration,character assassination,demonozation and outright lies and many are the innocent that fall by the wayside.(I think I just set the record for a run on sentence).
We lost six million at the hands of the Nazis Y"S and yet we are our own greatest enemies when we write off entire kehillos of Yidden in our sometimes arrogant crusade to make right that which we perceive to be wrong ,whether it's because of the hats or clothes they wear,their different perceptions in hahskofe,the way they they speak and so many more rightful but mostly wrong reasons.
At a time that we need achdus more then ever before, it's the commodity that we most lack.
We definitely need rachamim rabim memokor horachmim vehachsodim.
Please excuse this rant but I couldn't help it in view of the attacks posted here today.

Hirshel Tzig said...

no need to excuse yourself.

Hirshel Tzig said...

schneur

I wasn't blasting them, only making a point about the Rebbe. One might even say that the Rebbe hut gehalten that he's not worthy of doing what his predecessors did, travel to resort areas, for whatever reason.

איך פארגין זיי די דאטשעס מיט'ן גאנצען הארץ!

nahare upashte said...

tzig - i am surprised you allow this moronic conversation to go on. this post reached the lowest levels of intelligent. i think you should ask your rav about what you are allowing to happen. look in chofetz chaim about making statements which invite lowlives to speak divrey nevolo. if you leave a gourmet meal in wrong place it will attract flies.
i wont even adress them - they couldnt respond to anything i said in the past. but to you a few points.
1. even if you say that no one argues with the rebbe, to suggest that in any way it diminishes his gadles is rediculous. no one argued with the gr"o ( the chayey odom complained about it ) or with the ramba"m.
2. legufo shel dovor - you are dealing with people who never lived in the wide world of toyre. if they would have spoken to rav zevin ( i am related to him and my father spoke to him about the rebbe many times ) you would hear what he had to say. we are not talking about splitting hairs about a yeshivishe shiur but the way lomdus applies to world issues. there are hundreds of examples. when the rebbe spoke about leaving yerusholaim on erev peisach and peisach sheini it got him involved in mikchamto shel toire on the highest level. r zevin wasnt one that would give in out of respect. he was in awe from the rebbes lomdus and yedies. he said once that the rebbe is the only one who knows soid hatzimtzum and explained that in a few words can elluminate such lomdus that only few talmidey chachomim can understand.
rav hirshprung from whom i have dayones told me about 4 hour yechides he had with the rebbe. so did r shochat - there were hundreds of velts lomdim not just yeshive bochrim who would argue with the rebbe in milchamto shel teyre.
finally you cant compare a shiur given in yeshive and a hadran or lomdishe sicha that was heard by thousands around the wrold. i can give tens of examples how the rebbe was constantly challenged on what he said bealpe and bikhsav ( just read his correspondense with r zevin on kol asiri kodoish or the sicho in gemoro avoida zora that was challenged by the avreichim in koilel.
again - iam writing to you with the hope you will stop the nonsensical bizui talmidei chachomim.
ON RECORD I WANT TO SAY THAT EVEN THOUGH I DONT THINK YOU IMPLEY THIS, BUT THE OTHE GEDOILIM DIDNT WASTE TIME EITHER WHEN THEY WERE AF DATCHE

Anonymous said...

>>Please excuse this rant but I couldn't help it in view of the attacks posted here today.

You called a gadol b'Torah "worse than Hitler." You have refused to recant. Until you do that, you have no credibility.

>>no one argued with the gr"o ( the chayey odom complained about it ) or with the ramba"m.

The Rebbe was neither. And it sounds like you never learned the Rambam!

I don't mind your puffery. Its nice to think highly of one's Rebbe. But its quite delusional to think he was unique in learning or in any other way. Again, you can choose to believe it, but you can hardly blame others for not joining in on the fantasy.

yeruchem said...

The only fantasy here is that you think you speak for the Bnei Torah.

Anonymous said...

Reb Tzig wrote "To attach your own fantazyes to a man - let alone a Rebbe - is beyond wrong"

Is it OK to this when it comes to Gedolim Like Rav Schach?

Practice what you preach.

Hirshel Tzig said...

which Fantazyes did I attach to him?!

Anonymous said...

Did you post a nice picture of the Rebbe relaxing on a balcony overlooking a park in paris? whats the difference?

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe was surrounded all his life by yes-men, and was never questioned, he never had his feet to the fire. Contrast that with Litvishe Gedolim constantly argued and fought in learning to an extent that would shock most of today generation. I don't think it is a ma'alah that the Rebbe didn't drei zich with other gedolim, other than with JB and RYH in berlin. He would've gain (in my opinion) a lot from it. The Rebbe in a certain sense lived in his own bubble, a very busy and active one, but nevertheless zayn aigine daled amos.
-------------
So the Rebbe was anti-social, can't we just move on?

Sholom Ber said...

I thought Misnagdim liked Perushim?!

Anonymous said...

Everyone knows nigleh was not his strong point, and it's not derech limud hachasidus to argue, but rather to be mekabel. One thing is certain, he know chasidus better than anyone of your guys knew nigleh. And he knew nigleh a lot better than any of your Gedolim knew chasidus, so it balances out, and then some.

Chaim said...

>> which Fantazyes did I attach to him?!

Did you ever fantazyes that he was a "hater"?!

Did you ever fantazyes that he had personal tayness on Chabad for "firing" him from his shteler?!

Did you ever Fantazyes that he was against ALL chasidim, even those that were no Chabad?!

Did you ever fantazyes that he was a bad person?!

Look, its no secret that lubavitchers have dreamt up every fairy tale possible about Rav Schach. Walt Disney couldnt do as good of a job. Had you guys not made up so many crazy stories you might have even found some tipish that would have believed some Bubba maisa.
So please, spare us the "huh?".

Yankle said...

Yeh, did you post a nice pic of the rebbe playing Schach(-pun intended) with the friedeker nasi?

Hirshel Tzig said...

that was on nittel, that Chabad made-up Holiday.

Anonymous said...

My Rebbe called Rav Schach the בעל צפון of our dor, the only remaining evil after the makas bechoros of the holocust. You don't tell me what I'm allowed or not allowed to say about him.

Hirshel Tzig said...

chaim

I don't think I was the one who wrote those reasons, although they were mentioned in the blog by commenters. Why is it a fantasy to find a reason as to the inexplicable dislike he had for Chabad?

Anonymous said...

The picture of the Rebbe outdoors, it's a side profile with the Rebbe's chin on his fingers, looking deep in thought, you were ecstatic over it. You titled it something like התבוננות

snag22 said...

really? who's your Rebbe?

Anonymous said...

"Why is it a fantasy to find a reason as to the inexplicable dislike he had for Chabad?"

He said publicly what he doesn't like out chabad, "...un der mentsh hut a mishigas mit moshiach"

Anonymous said...

He called him that after the maaseh with sleeping in the succah

Chaim said...

"Why is it a fantasy to find a reason as to the inexplicable dislike he had for Chabad?"

Why is it a fantasy to find a FANTASY reason as to his dislike for Chabad?!
So now you understand how one can "attach his own fantazyes to a man". YOUR group decided the reason from their OWN brain as to why he disliked Chabad.
Maybe I can ask your own question back to you: Why is it a fantasy to find reasons why the rebbe led his following to paths that were very problematic?

Hirshel Tzig said...

the diff is that your REASONS and supposed stories are fantasies, they never happened. The farher/probe did happen.

Anonymous said...

anon 9:27

The Rebbe was years removed from being Rebbe then.

He was in the city where he lived then, not on vacation

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Commenters here have now proved that they can reduce all gedolei yisroel from the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L to Rav Elchanan Wasserman HY"d to the level of Hollywood celebrities. Where did this one spend his summer what did that one do in Paris etc. Since I've got nothing better to do I'll jump in too. Anon: when referring to Harav Soloveichik zt"l it is a chutzpa to call him "JB" I don't call the late mirrer "Shmuli" no matter how much I disagree with him. I'll be dan l'kaf zchus on using initials since you called Rav Hutner "RYH" Please accord Rav Soloveichik the same respect and say RJB.

Chaim said...

"the diff is that your REASONS and supposed stories are fantasies, they never happened. The farher/probe did happen."

Uh, so here we go with this geshmaker argument:
Not true. Your REASONS and "stories" are fantasies. The negative stories about the Shlita did happen.

Get my drift Tzig.
So again, before you chastise us for "attaching" what you call "fantazyes to a man-let alone a rebbe" (gasp!), think about the fantazyes that you attach to Rav Schach.
And PLEASE lets not have this immature, back-and-forth, circle type of argument (that you seem to enjoy) of: who's the fantasizer and whos the fantasizee.

Anonymous said...

Modeh said: "Anon: when referring to Harav Soloveichik zt"l it is a chutzpa to call him "JB""

Its a chutzpah to call someone the name that they called themselves?
Thats the name he went by. If I recall correctly on the cover of books he wrote that how he called himself.

Anonymous said...

Anon. Thursday, January 01, 2009 1:16:00 PM

That Youtube vid is amazing. Thank you!
It is well known how the alter mirrers would go at in learning like their lives depended on it, which it did. But I like most of us as an american born yankee have never really been exposed to seeing the notorious rischa de'oraisa that they had.
There are famous stories about the machlokesin in learning Reb shmuel Birnbaum had with reb leib Bakst. That clip really gives one an idea of what went on.

Anonymous said...

Tzig said:
"The farher/probe did happen."

I am no asking this l'kanter....
When did it happen?
I would really love know if there is any sort of proof to this.

Anonymous said...

Tzig:

L'maan Ho'emess: The piture of the Rebbe and the Fr.Rebbe playing shachmaat is not on Nittel [gasp :0 ]but in Purkersdorf [Perchteldsdorf?], Austria, when the Fr. Rebbe was there meetaamei refuah, ver pi pekudas harofim not to fartifzach intellectually at that time for his gezunt he played shaachmaat with the Rebbe who came to visit. Re'eh bechol zeh besefer Yemei Bereishis [in a piece that is mugah!].

Yom Tov Sheini

Anonymous said...

Tzig, Although I agree a bit with some of the commenter/commentators about giving a bima....
A beatiful sefer was published with the Zichronos of Harav Y Y Neiman Ab"d Montreal, ayin shum.

There is a story there that the Pupper Rebbe (Yayaged Yaakov? ducht zich) went to visit the Fr. Rebbe in Austria, and it was very hard for the FR, Rebbe to talk machmas hacholi R"L but the Fr. Rebbe asked what Chassidus he learns with his talmidim.

There's also a great story from the Tz"Tz but I'll leave that for another time ved"l.

Y"T Sheini

webjem said...

A Gut Shabbos video for commenter Yankle, from your friendly JEMnation blogger.

www.chabad.org/548471

shlepper said...

SOME HELP PLEASE.

In the top picture you posted in this thread of R Elchanan, RZS, Nitra Rav, etc... Who is who? I am not too familiar with the faces, which one is which?

Also, in the second pic, who is talking to R' Elchanan, is it known???

THANKS FOR THE HELP!

Anonymous said...

One more nekudah (which may be missing here, and sadly Lubavitchers from "shpitz" and down (or up ; ) )fail to see because of the "aloofness" (for lack of better term for "shtayen a tefach hecher, Ge'on Yaakov etc.)):

The Rebbe shtitzed begufoi ubemamoinoi ve'oid all Frumeh kraizen "ba'asher haim shum" whether encouraging banshakin to lead their Eida, Money (for mosdos, publications (ubesoichum "Olomeinu"!)) ve'oid ve'oid ve'oid!

And last but not least "aval asheimim anachnu" to even give a pesach pasu'ach for the ma'aaligin about limud Hatoirah ourselves, as the Rebbe munned lumdus (he told a famous Chassid who was involved askanus as a bachur: "Zolst zayn a Lamden kipshutoi", and at every farbrengen he munned horevaanye in lernen. B"H meer darfen zach nit ingaantzen shemmen but, al kol panim m'meg zich besseren....
Umesaymim betoiv, ein toiv elah Toirah!

Y"T Sheini

Hirshel Tzig said...

shlepper

REW is with his back to the camera

in the middle with the white beard is the Nitra Rov, Rav SD Ungar. Reb Zalman Sorotzkin is on the right, looking at the camera.

shlepper said...

Thx Tzig.
So I take it that nobody knows who the person with REW in the second pic?

Hirshel Tzig said...

no one? maybe somebody does. It may be "Moreinu" Jacob Rosenheim.

Anonymous said...

Why the Moreinu is parenthesis? Is the Rebbe the "Rebbe" or the Rebbe?

Hirshel Tzig said...

" " are not parentheses.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, thank you for demonstrating your continued dishonesty and refusal to deal with questions.

Why the quotation marks? Shall we call the Rebbe "the Rebbe"?

After reading up on your blog, I don't expect you to care about acting in a bekovodike way. There is no need to answer. "The Rebbe" taught you everything he knew about treating Jews with love and respect.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:29

You have also just removed yourself from the geder of "Eizehu mechubad? hamechabed..." Chazor bach!
Even if you disagree with the blog owner you may show kavod.
Bechavo hara'uy,
Anon

Anonymous said...

Tzig
We know who the prez of the gay club in y.u cardoza is
The kid you made a lubab and than a faygaleh

Anonymous said...

"Tzig
We know who the prez of the gay club in y.u cardoza is
The kid you made a lubab and than a faygaleh"
How this has any relativity to the the subject at hand fails me but since you brought this up, how's about this one.
We know the the name of the pervert sexual abuser of boys, former rebbi in the heiliger Yishuvas TT who was shielded for a # of years by some very chosheve roshei yeshivos and now lives in Lakewood ir hakodesh as a respected toishev of the community.
He also was a councilor for a # of years many moons ago in the Lubavitcher Camp Gan Yisroel where this miserable creature had the audacity to express his hatred for Lubavitch on a daily basis.

Anonymous said...

Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:01:00 PM wrote:
>So the Rebbe was anti-social, can't we just move on?

Exactly, and I heard this from many "insiders", which goes even further to show his mesiras nefesh to become Rebbe in 1950, and get involved with people constantly on a personal level. Someone who was at the yomtov seudas in the FR's apt. told me u can see the Rebbe's discomfort at sitting at a table with 10-15 people eating a seuda.
It was totally heipach tivoi, yet he did it with full energy.
This "anti-social" explains many things that outsiders don't understand about the Rebbe. For example, anyone who went to dollars knows the warmth and total focus the Rebbe gave u when you stood before him. Yet, maybe 10 people alive today can tell u definitely what the Rebbe ate for seudas shabbos every week.

Isaac Balbin said...

Arthur

You make some interesting points, however, I would have expected though in the context that you would have signed off using your full name?

On the matter at hand, as I understand it, the last Rebbe published plenty. Yes, things were adjusted by the Maghiim, but he clearly possessed a superior intellect. Someone attempted to besmirch Reb Moshe's psokim with that infamous sefer. Those of you who doubt the last Rebbe's scholarship have an opportunity to indulge in Milchamto shel Torah even now.

Personally, I have only ever learned some Rashi Sichos. I think they are brilliant. I do have the odd question here and there, but I always have questions.

I echo the words of Modeh B'Miktsas. It was a disgrace for the gutless "Anonymous" to call the Rav "JB". I personally find this a bizayon.

The Rav was arguably the greatest Talmid Chacham of our generation and at least one of the greatest.

Anonymous said...

>>Exactly, and I heard this from many "insiders", which goes even further to show his mesiras nefesh to become Rebbe in 1950, and get involved with people constantly on a personal level.

Some would sacrifice for kavod. . .

mee too said...

"The Rav was arguably the greatest Talmid Chacham of our generation and at least one of the greatest."

How do you know that RJB was the greatest?

Did you farher him and the other Gedolim to see how they matched up?

Or perhaps you came to this conclusion because you saw the unwavering support and respect he received from the other Gedolim?

Or maybe because in your circles that is what all the clowns have told you?

Mottel said...

Mee Too Perhaps because his talmidim didn't turn our to be a bunch of self-righteous and indolent schmucks like those of others?

Mendy said...

>>The Rav was arguably the greatest Talmid Chacham of our generation and at least one of the greatest.

I would agree. I do not believe the Rebbe was quite in his league, either. And my view is based on my familarity with their works as wells as those of their contemporaries. I figure a statement like this is ripe for good old fashioned Chabad insults. But I don't care. I know what I know. And before you throw names like Rav Shlomo Zalman, I venture to ask: Does anyone from Chabad know what Rav Shlomo Zalman wrote about the man they consider "worse" than Hitler? Match up the descriptions and appelations and you will find yourself more than slightly uncomfortable with using his name ever again.

Sure, you can use the names of other, relatively obscure gaonim. But the vast majority of the last generations great minds expressed reservations about the Rebbe--in one form or in another--and they were not mild.

Chabad has to accept that the world is not going to embrace the seemingly endless puffery about its great Rebbe, certainly if he made some remarks which cause everyone outside of Chabad to wonder exactly what he was thinking when he reasonably led many thousands of people to assume he is moshiach vadai, even after his death.

You may argue, "So what? There is nothing wrong with that!" Of course, there is nothing wrong with proclaiming yourself the Moshiach, suggesting, even as a joke that one's home is the beis hamikdash, etc.

Right. . .

tuv said...

Isaac Balbin
I have nothing against Rabbi Soloveichik being what you say: "The Rav was arguably the greatest Talmid Chacham of our generation and at least one of the greatest."

My only problem is the apparent hubris in deciding that.In other words a chazan can say "mevinehs" in chazonim, but should steer away from deciding who was the greatest or not

Anonymous said...

>>My only problem is the apparent hubris in deciding that.

Does this also apply to proclaiming someone is the nosi hador?

Anonymous said...

Can a law student suggest that a given professor is brilliant, and that his scholarship is perhaps unsurpassed? Thos deeply interested in torah scholarship are far from pretentious when they weigh in on whom they find brilliant.

baachi said...

Back Lubab ranch......
Tzig,
How come you forgot one of the biggest yomim teyvim, hey teives, the day one Jew beat another Jew in a secular court????
Didon notzach!!!!!!!!
Wow,
The secular judge "agreed" with Lubavitch.I feel vindicated!"Even" the "urel" agrees with Lubab.
Hey, Lubabs you have no idea how many more things you and the "areilim" agree about.Second comings, just to mention one!

Mottel said...

Baachi - probably because idiots like you would bring it up for us in any event . . .
Tzig - why do you let garbage like this through?

baachi said...

Didon rotzach,didon notzach!
Lubab ubber alles.
Yechi.
Can we now have a list of the new yomim teyvim??
So what do we have?
Ya't Kislev=Lubab version of Jewish New Year.
Hey Teves=unique to Lubab, no Jewish equivalent.
Yud Aleph Nissan=Birthday of Rebbe, of ancient Egyptian origins.No Jewish equivalent.

Sorry,I need help with your other "chogehs", I'm not yet, bahavent in all your "new toirehs"

Hirshel Tzig said...

It's interesting to note how the defenders of the Gedolim are mysteriously absent again...

Why do I allow these comments through? I sometimes wonder as well. I think because I want to show the world what the haters are like: פוסטע עמי הארצים that make these half a-- statements based on what their כתה ד' רבי taught them.

Anonymous said...

>>It's interesting to note how the defenders of the Gedolim are mysteriously absent again...

And they will come whenever a Gadol is insulted. Where were you when you allowed someone to write that a gadol was worse than Hitler? You let it in and could not care less.

Second, these statements are made by independent thinking individuals and there is nothing patently wrong about their positions. If they would call the Rebbe worse than Hitler, I would protest.

baachi said...

Ok
Tzig,
Let me ask you:Don't you sometimes wonder how you guys make a big 'yom teiv" over one yid winning another in a secular court?
I'm not blaming Lubab for defending themselves, they are allowed their opinion that they owned the books.Going to a goyishe court?Not very impressive to be honest (and not very impressed when R'Aizik Schvei z'l was asked to write a teshuva permitting it.What else would a Lubavitcher chosid pasken?Against the wishes of his Rebbe? That is not an impartial psak that is a "keses eynayim")
But the main thing that always turned my stomach:You win a case, you go home quitely.No reason to make a yom tov over winning a case against a fellow, family member, a fellow yid a "fatzureteh mentsch".
And what would have been a big deal had Lubavitch lost?No real biggee.Barry would have gotten a percentage of the books, Lubavitch would have offered him a financial settlement, oon sholom al yisroel.
Of course in that case we would not have this "ahavas yisroel" yom teiv

Anonymous said...

Tzig
They didn't learn this hatred from the Kitoh daled rebbi .They learned it from the Tzoirer Hayehudem in Pornivitch, that bastion of true ahavas Yisroel that is exhibited on a daily basis ven einer harget der tveiter far de benkel.

mee too said...

Mottel,

"Mee Too Perhaps because his talmidim didn't turn our to be a bunch of self-righteous and indolent schmucks like those of others?"

So I ask you Mottel, how would you know that?

Either you don't know all of RJB's talmidim or you don't know the talmidim of the "others".

Of course RJB had many wonderful talmidim, but he also had some that would be lucky to be described as "self-righteous and indolent schmucks".

Likewise, the other great Roshei Yeshiva of that generation also had their good and bad talmidim.

But for somebody to decide that RJB was the greatest is just ludacris.
And for you to try and back up that statement with your false and silly logic is even more ludacris.

An Ailmesher said...

Hirshel,

You don't know what you're talking about but you have great pictures.

There's a famous picture of the Gerrer Rebbe, the Imrai Emes, making the sign of the fig (א פייג). It's really an obscene gesture, but apparently he didn't know what it meant. Do you have it and could you post it?

Hirshel Tzig said...

don't know? why not?

Obscene gesture? The Gerrer Rebbe?

surely you jest

Hirshel Tzig said...

note to Hyman and his kind:

If you can't show your fellow bloggers a shred of decency and common courtesy don't expect your comments to get published.

An Ailmesher said...

You don't know what you're talking about because you say comments like this "I guess that way the biggest obstruction to their existence will go away, and they'll live comfortably". Do you really think that people are against Lubavitch because they think it's so great that it's a threat to them? People have legitimate criticisms against Lubavitch, at least in their opinion (and mine too). Stick to what you do best, which is posting great pictures.

There's a picture of the Imrei Emes putting his thumb between his forefinger and middle finger at the photographer that was taking his picture. You know, like we Hungarian kids used to do and say א פייג! Didn't you ever see it?

Hirshel Tzig said...

I have seen it, and I may have even posted it.
Legitimate criticisms my foot!

Hyman said...

Tzig, are you refering to statemants that you have had the "decency" to joyfully publish like that of anon.11:25:00 PM "They learned it from the Tzoirer Hayehudem in Pornivitch"?
Or were you refering to a statment that I made stating that you and your type run away from questions, arguments, and facts...thus deleting anything that would make you feel cornerd?
Like this fact that is being laid out in front of you right now.
Have a good night wimp!
(If you yourself read this...Im happy enough)

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'm referring to the morons like you who have no point to make so they have use derogatory terms against their adversaries.

They have nothing to say but silly plays on words like "Lube-Jobs."

I think the record will show that I allow plenty of what you would call "facts that would corner me."

Hyman said...

To An Ailmesher. you would think I sent in something full of profanity and 4 letter words.
What it was was a veiw of Tzig in the mirror. Which apparently was to much to handle

Hyman said...

Tzig you know that you didnt delete it cus it had the word "lube-job". What I said there was legitamate criticism. Lube-job is your excuse to run.
2 proofs: a. When someone says "pornavitch" you didnt say he was a moron who "no point to make so they have use derogatory terms against their adversaries."
b. Print what I wrote and replace Lube-job by Lubavitch.
Aha!

Hirshel Tzig said...

maybe if you had something to say, besides for childish plays on words it would get past the "censor." I did not see the word "Pornavitch," so I didn't "allow it." You're also a known instigator around here, so I read your scribble carefully.

Hyman said...

"Known instigater"
Instigate what? Some ctitcism that you have a hard time with?
You need to be more 'careful' with "instigaters"? Is everyone that has valid points on L-U-B-A-V-I-T-C-H (I gotta be careful here with the spelling) an "instigater"? Are you saying you are a wimp? Excuse me, but I already said that.
Again, what I wrote was a very strong point that many non-chabad folk have been saying for years already. I threw in the word "lube-job" (actualy that term I did hear in 4th grade) for flavor. And you know it.
And BTW everything I post here is ONLY strong, valid, clear, and many times well known questions and points.

Isaac Balbin said...

Tuv and the rest:

If it is hubris for me to make the claim, and you will note I did say "arguably" and said "at least one the greatest" then it is certainly not hubris when those comments came from the eminent Geonim who came in contact with him. We all know what they said, and we also know it wasn't the typical platitudes at the head of a letter.

I happen to know that many opponents of the Rav's philosophy quietly read and continue to hang out for his Torah. Even in Lakewood they quietly acknowledge the Rav and it is commonly felt that he was the yarshen of Reb Chaim's Geonus.

Of course you can't prove such things.

Mr "mee too" ... I don't actually know. I am in no position to make judgements based on my own learning of the Rav's Torah. Having said that, it would have to be a grobber am ho-oretz or shachtzan who would not at least acknowledge that he was "arguably one of the greatest talmidei chachomim of our generation".

Certainly, in as much as the mechutzophim who call him "JB" is concerned, there is no doubt that this is a gross insult to kovod hatorah.

I happen to think the same of the last lubavitcher rebbe, although I have read more of the Rav's Torah because I happen to be mesmerised by it.

Our youngest son is named after him.

I don't know why we have a tendency to "write people off". Before the war, the Aruch Hashulchan was pre-eminent acharon and yet today he has all but been replaced by the Mishne Brura? Why? I have heard it was because of his Psak about saying Krias Shma in front of a lady with Rosha Meguleh? Nu, so what now. He goes down ten dargos as a result?

The Rav changed his colours from Aguda to Mizrachi. So? That pasuls his Geonus? He was just as likely to move from Mizrachi as well if he felt that was the right thing to do. He was intellectually honest! What a heretic thought.

Enough. My point was nobody has the "right" to call such a godol beyisroel "JB". This term is pejorative.

An Ailmesher said...

The legitimate criticisms are that the Rebbe made statements that caused all of his chasidim to think that he's moshiach, that Lubavitch has turned less charedi and more modern under seventh generation rule and that Lubavitch is the only chassidus (hopefully) that has a number of chassidim that think he's god. This from a chassidus that studies chabad and should know better than anyone else.

That Gerrer picture is interesting because the sign of the fig is an obscene gesture and has been for two thousand years. Search on it in Wiki. In Hungary the kids would be punished for making that gesture. The Imrei Emes obviously didn't know what it meant, although he was in general a very knowledgeable person.

Anonymous said...

"I did not see the word "Pornavitch," so I didn't "allow it."
Tzig,
I don't understand why you have to be on the "defensive".Why is it that the haters and detractors of the Rebbe are given a free hand in using the most vile terminology to describe the Rebbe and Lubavitch ,but when one word is used to deride an institution that once was a pride to klal Yisroel, under the leadership of the Great Rav Kahana Z"L, has become ,loi oleinu' a physical slug fest on a daily basis,it becomes a crime ?
I know they have a role model for their hatred and venom,the great "Oihaiv Yisroel" of Bnei Brak ,the so called "Godol Hador", but you're the owner of this blog and unless these haters have something intelligent but not necessarily positive, to say,don't post their filthy derision of the Rebbe.

reichenen said...

anon 11:38
"Great Rav Kahana Z"L"
Actually his real name was :יוסף שלמה כהנמן
Not bad for a Lubavitcher to at least know part of the name

tuv said...

Balbin,
Since Rabbi Yosef Dov Soloveichik and the Late Lubavitcher Rebbe were such different personalities and had such different approaches to Torah learning I'm tempted to say that when you say that (paraphrasing) that both were the greatest talmidei chachomim of the previous generation, you actually know little about either,OR cannot tell the difference.
Someone who thinks that the Lubavitcher was the biggest talmid chochom of the previous generation, cannot, almost by defintion, think that Rabbi Soloveichik was and vice-versa.
An analogy from chazonus would be to say "Yossaleh Rosenblatt and Lipa Shmeltzer are the two greatest Jewish singers of the last generation.
Btw, besides learning by R'Groner in Yeshiva Center College were else did you learn?

Arthur said...

"Great Rav Kahana Z"L"
Actually his real name was :יוסף שלמה כהנמן
Not bad for a Lubavitcher to at least know part of the name"
Well, that just shows that even though we can't measure up to the "perfection" of the average Litveshe Yeshiva product, we to make a typo once in a while.It's part of our human makeup.
Of course if your not a Lubavitcher these things are unheard of.

Isaac Balbin said...

Tuv
Of course they were different. I really can't understand your statement in the context. Does it matter where I learned? I learned Halocho from Rav Efrati, what does that make me? I happen also to be a very great admirer of Rav AI Kook and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach. Does this make me more/less qualified?

These are my views and I never expressed them in absolute terms. I used the word "arguably" because I know there are people who will have their views.

The last Lubavitcher Rebbe did have a superior intellect from my observations. Indeed, the Rav himself is alleged to have said he had a "Ge-eynishe Kop"

PS. Does anyone know the story of the Lubavitcher Rebbe being bailed from prison by the Rav?

Mottel said...

RE: The Story -
One Purim in Berlin the Rebbe was M'kayim Ad do Lo yada k'pshuto. Outside he gathered a group of non-observant Jews around him, and began to speak to them, farbreng what have you. I believe he stood up on a car at one point, but suffice to say whatever exactly transpired, the Police brought him in after suspecting he was disturbing the peace. Rabbi Soloveichik came, and was able to explain to the officers about Purim etc. and was able to get the Rebbe released. He then told the Rebbe that now he knew that the Rebbe would be Admor - as he went through tfisa like all the other rebbeim.

Yankle said...

isaac said: "the Rav himself ... the Rav ..... The rav" etc.
Why dont you just call him what he called himself: J.B.?
Or if you have a hard time with reality and just cant do that just call him Rabbi Soloveitchik, or my Rabbi. Why do you insist he was 'THE', Rav When he wasnt?
Or just say 'my' Rav. I dont think you would appreciate me calling my friend 'the' friend when I was speaking to you.

tuv said...

"The last Lubavitcher Rebbe did have a superior intellect from my observations. Indeed, the Rav himself is alleged to have said he had a "Ge-eynishe Kop" "

Where did I infer that The Rebbe did not have "superior intellect"?
I did not even say who I thought was the greater talmid chochom.

Also, since when does "superior intellect" make a person the biggest talmid chochom of the generation??

The reason I asked you were you studied was to get an understanding of your backround.I've noticed that people who did not go through the formal, black hat, post high school yeshivas do not have a very good grip on what real Torah scholarship is.It's unfortunate that Lubavitcher yeshivas fall into this category.If someones main exposure to "lomdut" is going to be from Sichos, they are understandably going to think that The Rebbe was the biggest lamdan.Now, that may actually be true, but a person who only has exposure to that genre would not be an objective judge.

Also, if I may R'Balbin,
You yourself claim that "even" in Lakewood, Rabbi Soloveichiks talmudic genius is recognnized.Again I will not insert my opinion here, but a question begs itself:Apparently, when someone is universally seen as a scholar the black hat yeshivas are able to acknowledge the fact(as you claim re:Rabbi Soloveichik) and I use "Lakewood" as a proxy for a non fanatic black hat yeshiva, since apparently the Rebbe is not seen there as such (I don't have actual *proof* but it would be a reasonable assumption based on what I've seen and heard.I myself never attended Lakewoood, but again Lakewood is just a proxy).

By way of another example:Lubavitch uses a certain rov who's name I won't mention as one of the Rebbe big admirers.This rov was a phenomenal go'on.However if one actually knows a bit more they'd realize that this choshuve yids strength was in one facet of Torah and was viewed as *mediocre* compared to other scholars in a different facet.Yet Lubavitch waves him around, not even realizing that even amongst people that have no axe to grind, this is not seen as any proof of the Rebbes scholarship.

Lastly, it's a good idea to look at a persons disciples to get an idea of the scholar himself.Sadly, both Rabbi Soloveichik and The Rebbe did not leave any talmid of a caliber which is even close to their stature.Although Ponovizh yeshiva has been villified on this blog, many of it's grads are "bedugmas" their roshei yeshiva in scholarship

Anonymous said...

"Why dont you just call him what he called himself: J.B.?"
For the same reason that many Chosheve Yidden and gedolim would sign there names as "Ani Hakatan" followed by their names without any appellations or titles.
Following your train of logic would you refer to the Vayoel Moshe as "The Katan Yoel" (as an example)?

Eli F said...

I wonder what all the politically correct fellows here think of the names that, for example R'Ahron Kotler or Horav Shach, were called in Lubavitch.JB is nothing, compared to that.
Bichlal, nobody was called more than a last name in Lubavitch, except for some "special" additional names they bestowed on their enemies.
This was gleaned from a short and quite fun time I spent in yeshiva in Kfar Chabad about 25 years ago when I had a fall out with my folks and wanted to check out and show them "show" them.
I never became a chabadnik, but still like a couple of things from those days, chief amongst them is not having to be so obsessive about getting up early, especially on shabbess when my father would daven at 7 am and be very unhappy when I did not join him.In fact I never liked coming home from yeshiva for off shaboses because of this and similar things

Isaac Balbin said...

Hi Tuv, (I wish you'd use your real name, I do find it unnerving always writing to shedim :-)

You yourself claim that "even" in Lakewood, Rabbi Soloveichiks talmudic genius is recognnized.Again I will not insert my opinion here, but a question begs itself:Apparently, when someone is universally seen as a scholar the black hat yeshivas are able to acknowledge the fact(as you claim re:Rabbi Soloveichik)


I think you misunderstand. It's not because Lakewood is "black" it's because they "turned" on the Rav when he defected to Mizrachi and coupled with the fact that it is a Mokom Torah, I'd say it's a pretty good example to use.

I didn't learn post secondary in Chabad, but I have some Chaverim who did, and who are huge talmidei chachomim.

and I use "Lakewood" as a proxy for a non fanatic black hat yeshiva, since apparently the Rebbe is not seen there as such (I don't have actual *proof* but it would be a reasonable assumption based on what I've seen and heard.

The problem is that people often can't remove their politics.

Yankle, whoever you might be, I think it might be a good idea if you didn't just stir for the sake of it.
I call him the Rav (as do many) and in the context you know exactly who I am referring to and should respect that in the same way that we don't ask "which" Rebbe when a Lubavitcher is writing, or in context. As to the signing, please! Do you want us to take you seriously? Actually, please ask your Posek whether it would be the right think for you to use YOUR name on a blog (assuming he let you go on a blog).

Tuv: I myself never attended Lakewoood, but again Lakewood is just a proxy).

I didn't attend either, but learnt in the evening in their Kollel for 10 years on a Thursday night.

By way of another example:Lubavitch uses a certain rov who's name I won't mention as one of the Rebbe big admirers.This rov was a phenomenal go'on.However if one actually knows a bit more they'd realize that this choshuve yids strength was in one facet of Torah and was viewed as *mediocre* compared to other scholars in a different facet.Yet Lubavitch waves him around, not even realizing that even amongst people that have no axe to grind, this is not seen as any proof of the Rebbes scholarship.


Look, we all know about Sinai and Oker Horim and we also know there were very few who achieved both. I expressed my view based on what I have read and heard. I also know that the Rav was not one to say things for Chanifeh. He had a sharp tongue and was known to proffer his sobering opinion on people's alleged Ge-onus :-)

Lastly, it's a good idea to look at a persons disciples to get an idea of the scholar himself.Sadly, both Rabbi Soloveichik and The Rebbe did not leave any talmid of a caliber which is even close to their stature.

Why is that an indication of the Scholar, even if it's true! Surely you know that there are quite a number of factors involved.

Although Ponovizh yeshiva has been villified on this blog, many of it's grads are "bedugmas" their roshei yeshiva in scholarship

It could be argued that some are greater. So what does that prove.

Look, it's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. You are of course entitled to disregard my opinion, but I don't buy the "science" of your forensic ge-onus determination theories.

Be well.

shmuel grainom said...

JB's shiurim are quite well thumbed in lakewoods library.
publications by "chaos" nothing but from the 6th and up come in.

Anonymous said...

>>publications by "chaos" nothing but from the 6th and up come in.

Chabad does not get this. They genuinely believe, despite their lack of familiarity with anyone outside of Chabad, that their Rebbe was the greatest. When they stick their head in the sand and refuse sobering critiques to the frighteningly dishonest extent they do, that his Torah is superior to everyone else's. Anyone who dared criticize the Rebbe for proclaiming himself Moshiach was villified with insults that would make Louis Farakahn salivate with glee. And that is the end of that.

I have some friends who are Lubavitch (I know a handful in Lakewood alone!). They have gone through the whole system, and I sense that their devotion to learning Chassidus is their main expression of their ehrlichkeit and yiddishkeit--not learning. This is a result of what the Rebbe emphasized--not deemphasized, chas vesholom.

Isaac Balbin said...

Look, I personally think that one should, through one's life, acquaint oneself with lots of different approaches to Torah, but I understand that some will not, outside of standard texts. I don't think there is an issur in either approach.

At the end of the day it is a Halachic question, isn't it? If someone spends 90% of their day learning Chassidus (or Mussar for that matter) are they Mekayem Mitzvas Talmud Torah? Obviously those who don't consider these Talmud Torah would say no, and those who do would say yes.

For me, Mussar, for example, never connected. I ended up learning Kuzari during Mussar time (half an hour's worth). Was I wasting my time? I doubt it. I'm told that one had to know Kuzari before one could get accepted to the original Tomchei Tmimim. Brisker often don't learn Mussar. So what.

The way I see it, if someone is sitting in front of a Sefer, Ma Tov. Let's worry perhaps about those who don't?

These things are intractable. Chassidim believe they are learning Torah Chadosho. Fine. Good luck to them. I don't mind as long as they respect those who choose not to. Ditto for those who think one should sit with a Ktzos all day. As long as they don't have disrespect for those for whom Amlo shel Torah is Pirush Rashi Al HaTorah or Chazon HeGeula from Rav Kook or Tanya from the Shulchan Aruch HoRav or Hamidos L'cheker HaHalacha or Tzena U'rena

tuv said...

R'Balbin,
Surely you say in jest what I'm copying down here:"Lastly, it's a good idea to look at a persons disciples to get an idea of the scholar himself.Sadly, both Rabbi Soloveichik and The Rebbe did not leave any talmid of a caliber which is even close to their stature.

Why is that an indication of the Scholar, even if it's true! Surely you know that there are quite a number of factors involved.

Although Ponovizh yeshiva has been villified on this blog, many of it's grads are "bedugmas" their roshei yeshiva in scholarship

It could be argued that some are greater. So what does that prove."

Do you think that if one does not have any talmid of even close caliber to the rebbe it does not show something on the teacher??
You are probably joking.Or being devils advocate.

When I hear from Lubavitcher the reason they don't appoint a new rebbe, because "there is nobody to take his place" I see it as the greatest insult.From all the thousands of disciples, not even one is "bedugmas" the teacher?

Isaac Balbin said...

Tuv,

I jest not. You seem to somehow not understand the Chabad context.

Lubavitch can't appoint a new Rebbe. The last Rebbe was in my view faithfully following the post-holocaust theology of his father-in-law.

Anonymous said...

>>At the end of the day it is a Halachic question, isn't it? If someone spends 90% of their day learning Chassidus (or Mussar for that matter) are they Mekayem Mitzvas Talmud Torah? Obviously those who don't consider these Talmud Torah would say no, and those who do would say yes.

This is not accurate. Even the Shulchan Aruch HaRav proscribes what one must learn in being mekayem talmud Torah. What is done in yeshiva is a kiyum, what is done in Chabad--to the exclusion of Torah--is not.

tuv said...

"Lubavitch can't appoint a new Rebbe. The last Rebbe was in my view faithfully following the post-holocaust theology of his father-in-law."


This is getting scary.
So even an admitted non-Lubavitcher but influenced by them, has bought in to the idea of "no new Rebbe in Lubavitch"
Scary.

You have told us in the beautiful article you wrote about the tragedy in Mumbai that you are a teacher.I'm surprised that you don't realize that if a teacher is not able to raise his talmidim to his level he has failed in his mission.
Rabbi Balbin, I'm surprised and worried at what Lubavitch influence can do.Things which seem so simple and I thought that every thinking people would agree with become contentious.
You can still telling me you werebeing devils advocate.

Isaac Balbin said...

Rabbi Tuv,

I'm sure you have been influenced by Lubavitch as well --- even LeTovah in some cases. No?

The truth be told, however, I formed my opinion on there not being a new Rebbe after the last one based on my reading of "Hakeriah VeHakedusha" edited by Rav Levitt and various articles which discuss it. Indeed, I have attempted to engage chassidim in some discussion on this, but I have been unsuccessful.

I do not believe that a teacher who has not been able to raise talmidim to his level, has failed in his mission. I educate. Some take, some don't. Some have brains, some don't. Some are smarter than me, others are not. Having said that, I am regularly nominated as an excellent lecturer :-)

PS. Lehavdil, Was Yehoshua at the level of Moshe? Which Talmid of Reb Chaim was at his level?

I am not being devil's advocate. If you live in Melbourne, drop in and we can have a chat. You will find that I deeply hold my views. If you know people in Melbourne, they probably know me and whilst I do stir every now and again (who doesn't) I am serious about the things I have written here.

There is so much enmity and lack of achdus, but more to the point, so much of it is pure and simple politics. I wish there were more people like Reb Shlomo Zalman z"l or Reb Moshe z"l or indeed my Rebbe, Rav Abaranok z"l. It goes both ways, and all sides are guilty (me too, I expect)

Fred said...

"I do not believe that a teacher who has not been able to raise talmidim to his level, has failed in his mission."

Likutei Sichos 17(?)
Three names of Passover:
Matzah, Festival of Freedom, pesach

hints the teacher succeeds when the Talmid is superior.


"The last Rebbe was in my view faithfully following the post-holocaust theology of his father-in-law."

see Jakeys latest Yeshivanet
where the Fridger rebbe as Menashe is surpassed by the Rebbe as Ephraim.

Isaac Balbin said...

Fred, so? I'm not moved by that Mekor.

We know that in Chabad, the view is that each Rebbe inherits from his predecessor and goes up that little bit higher. It has to be that way, otherwise the Baal Shem Tov would be Moshiach :-)

Personally, I have (from my limited learning) felt that the Alter Rebbe was the standout ...
In terms of Halocho, he would have been followed by the Tzemach Tzedek.
Anyway, that's just my personal feeling.
It's not designed to "lower" any one else.

I'm not frum enough for yeahivanet, so if there is an article there worth reading, please email it to me. You can find me if you google me.

Anonymous said...

>>hints the teacher succeeds when the Talmid is superior.

So, why did this not happen?

Sholom Ber said...

so aobunch of Lubavitch-haters will decide if the Rebbe had "good Talmidim?" do you know any Lubavitchers that you can make that statement?

did RAK have talmidim superior to him?

little moshele said...

i used the name little moshele for a purpose.

I have just finished reading most of the comments.

A few hours earlier I listened to RYY Jacobson's brilliant lecture on Mumbai

I have also just finished reading what our soldiers are being moser nefesh kipshutoi in Gaza

I therefore feel that what Arthur has said is so 'tzum zach'.

You don't like chabad, fine. The time u spend writing against it take out a gemoroh a shev shmaitzeh a kovetz shiurim 'n learn or go and do some chesed like help an old lady do her shopping or simply take out a thillim.

If u do like chabad then focus on one of the many inyonim that the Rebbe said was swo crucial for us to strengthen when Israel is at war.

Wherever u live at this moment we are not living through the horrors of gaza as our young soldiers are. And don't think for a minute that they are only defending sderot or ashkelon. They are ensuring that a jew can walk the streets of Paris, London, NYork or Melbourne.

We have all become the parents of little moshele, his parents made no distinction between any type of jew cared and loved them all.

We must do the same

Anonymous said...

>>so a bunch of Lubavitch-haters will decide if the Rebbe had "good Talmidim?" do you know any Lubavitchers that you can make that statement?

What do you mean Haters? Chabad maintain the Rebbe is the greatest. Ohviously, this means that no one is greater than him.

>>did RAK have talmidim superior to him?

RAK never implied that a teacher must leave students who are greater than him. There is no debate that he built extraordinary talmidei chachomim and made a huge, lasting impact on the Torah and Charedi world.

>>I therefore feel that what Arthur has said is so 'tzum zach'.

Which statement, that Rav Shach is worse than Hitler? That he is the tzorer hayehudim? That he is burning in the deepest pits of Hell? Or what is his letzonus? His refusal to recant such profoundly evil statements? Maybe you are refering to his incredibly dishonesty? Whatever the case may be, Arthur is an evil man. And everything must be said must necessarily be ignored.

Hirshel Tzig א.ב.א הירשל צאפ said...

ok, not superior, wee they bichlal close to what he was?

Anonymous said...

Rav Aharon never suggested they ought to be. The Rebbe, apparently, did.

Arthur said...

"Maybe you are refering to his incredibly dishonesty?
What "dishonesty" everything I said was true.If any one one is dishonest on this blog it's those that spew their incessant half truths, outright lies and vile hatred about the Rebbe.
Lets get one thing clear. Before you knackers continue to claim that I said that"Rev Shach was worse then Hitler" go back in the archives and check whether I used those words before you continue parroting what one "dishonest" blogger wrote.I did say that he had enough hatred in him to fill two Reichs furehres which he did.He expressed his hatred in writing in his Michtovim umaimorem and before thousands of assembled Yidden , against Lubavitch,the Rebbe and many other individuals and groups of within Jewery.To deny this, as all the nay Sayers on this blog do ,is the real dishonesty here.If anyone has to do Teshuvah,it's the Chabad bashers and their filthy mouths or pens.If you don't like whats being said on a Lubavitcher blog, I suggest that you post on a blog that will appreciate your sort of filth such as A failed Messiah which is run by the hater supreme and lunatic, Shmarye.

Anonymous said...

>>What "dishonesty" everything I said was true.

This is another example.

>>If any one one is dishonest on this blog it's those that spew their incessant half truths, outright lies and vile hatred about the Rebbe.

Vile Hatred? No one came close to the disgusting things you wrote about the gadol hador.

>>Lets get one thing clear. Before you knackers continue to claim that I said that"Rev Shach was worse then Hitler" go back in the archives and check whether I used those words before you continue parroting what one "dishonest" blogger wrote.

He was incredibly dishonest and forthright. You are a menuval who wrote that Rav Shach is burning in Hell.

>>I did say that he had enough hatred in him to fill two Reichs furehres which he did.

So this is a truth? TWO furhers? This is better than saying that Rav Shach was worse than Hitler? Are you so dishonest that you cannot see how ridiculous your statement is?

>>He expressed his hatred in writing in his Michtovim umaimorem and before thousands of assembled Yidden , against Lubavitch,the Rebbe and many other individuals and groups of within Jewery.

So did you. And it was not hate. Not according to him, not according to his followers, not according to many leading gedolim of his time--but truth. You are just calling truth hate.

>>To deny this, as all the nay Sayers on this blog do ,is the real dishonesty here.

The only denial here is yours. The only dishonest one here is you.

>>If anyone has to do Teshuvah,it's the Chabad bashers and their filthy mouths or pens.If you don't like whats being said on a Lubavitcher blog, I suggest that you post on a blog that will appreciate your sort of filth such as A failed Messiah which is run by the hater supreme and lunatic, Shmarye.

You wrote filth, but you think its ok because its true, despite the fact that no one legit agrees with you. Yet, anyone else who speaks the truth against Lubavitch is entitled to that.

You said Rav Shach is burning in hell. There is only one way to know it. Seeing as God is allowing you to enjoy all your schar in this world, you cannot know this. Hence, you cannot claim it is true. You are a liar. You must do teshuva. And it must be done in public.

Anonymous said...

>>What "dishonesty" everything I said was true.

There is no one who ever wrote with more hatred, filth and dishonesty than you. Rav Shach, if a malach like him can be compared to filth-ridden demon like you, never came close to writing or saying the things you have written about the Rebbe. So if he is full of hate, what does that make you? You are the most disgusting beheima to ever walk this earth. To even write that what you are saying is true demonstrates the true moral and intellectul depravity you have reached.

Arthur said...

When you haters will do teshuvah for what you say against the Rebbe in writing, I will consider doing teshuvah for what I said against Rav Shach.Otherwise kent ir alle soinei Yisroel klappen kop in vant and post your shmutz and dishonesty with Shmarya.

Anonymous said...

This is quite funny.

Arthur committed aveiros I have never even dreamed of; composed the most vicious, hateful and damning posts one Jew can write about a human being, and yet, he has the nerve to call me a hater!

What on Earth did I write about the Rebbe that can render me a hate? Nothing! You are in such a different world than me, so deeply mired in filth, hubris and dishonesty, that you are completely incapably of looking at yourself and recognizing yourself for what you are. Like the poster who dealt with you so incredibly patiently and kindly when you committed this most eggregious aveirah, I wish that you are capable of doing the right thing and take back the evil you committed. I never said anything bad about the Rebbe. I certainly do not hate him. And I have never written anything about him that can possibly be construed as hatefu;. You have written disgusting things, you just refuse to take it back. And all you are doing is playing the childish game of calling others names which aptly describe your appalling, unjewish behavior.

In the end, you are the real soneh yisoel. Your comments are completely disgusting and unforgivable. The only thing on this thread which remotely comports with "hate" is the belief that the rebbe was not, in fact, Moshiach or the greatest man of his century and many centuries preceding him. Again, if that is hate, what can you--you degenerate--who wrote the things you wrote about Rav Shach possibly have to say for yourself?

אברהם יצחק הכהן בלבין said...

The root of the problem lies in not accepting this באמת:

הרבה דרכים למקום

too many people, as a result of happiness and contentment in the way they lead their lives, feel the need to justify their דרך by putting someone elses דרך down. From there, it is a slippery slope to ad-hominem attacks.

וכמה יפים הם דברי מרן הראי"ה, שעיונו המרובה ב"משנת הצדיק" מלא חכמה, בינה ודעת, שלימדָנו כלל גדול בעולמה של צדיקות: "הצדיקים הטהורים אינם קובלים על הרשעה אלא מוסיפים צדק. אינם קובלים על הכפירה אלא מוסיפים אמונה. אינם קובלים על הבערות אלא מוסיפים חכמה"

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אברהם יצחק! I like it! especially the HaCohen part. It looks so much holier.

Isaac Balbin said...

Tell my wife :-)

Sorry, let's correct that. Your wife should tell my wife :-)


PS. My oldest son is (yes, really)

צבי יהודה בן אברהם יצחק הכהן

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Now, THAT is something! There aren't many like that in the world.

Anonymous said...

>>too many people, as a result of happiness and contentment in the way they lead their lives, feel the need to justify their דרך by putting someone elses דרך down. From there, it is a slippery slope to ad-hominem attacks.

If only Arthur would be makir this emes and take back the horrible things he wrote!

Anonymous said...

moshiach now