Monday, December 15, 2008

Calling All MO "Ethics" Majors


Short and Sweet:

In light of the fact that the biggest pyramid/Ponzi scheme in history was allegedly perpetrated by the President of YU's Sy Syms School of Business. In light of the fact that such a stink was made of the fact that YU alumnus Rabbi Menachem Genack was kashering unethical treatment of animals and workers. In light of the fact that Billions of dollars were lost to his vast schemes, will these same people be in the forefront of making sure that Mr. Madoff is brought to justice and the monies he stole returned? Not that he won't be brought to justice without their clamoring for it, but still. It would be nice to see a little even-handedness.

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great thought; alas, all thieves are not shifty Satmars with kichel crumbs in their beards and herring breath. They are proud MO who pontificate about dina demalchuta as well.

Anonymous said...

Please see bava batra 15b (the part about the beam between your eyes)
KT
Joel Rich

Hirshel Tzig said...

רבי יואל
you miss the point. I beat you to that shtikkel gemoro by exposing the hypocrisy among the Mod Orthodox. The טול קורה applies to them here!

Josh said...

Madoff is not MO, although he is Jewish.
ULT and Shmuly did not represent MO vis a vis Rubashkin. All the major MO institutions like the OU were not happy with Shmuly and his efforts. YU never took a stand on the issue, although some of their students made a forum for the various players to speak. Did YCT even take an official position supporting their students Shmuly and Ari? I do not think so.
Rubashkin did not need Uris help in getting where it is today. The Feds had more to do with it. The immigration violations and flagrant violations of labor law are the kosher steak to Uris sprig of parsley.
I am sorry you want to blame MO people for Madoff and for Rubashkin cratering but its not happening. This is a great stretch of logic.
If you think YU likes the schmuck who stole 100 million dollars from them, that Ramaz or SAR are lauding this ganef, you are delusional.
This is a tragedy, not time for more of your Circus Tent politics.

Josh said...

Why for Mumbai did we need to all love חב"ד and have achdus but for Madoff which will effect a LOT more people and is 100X worse for many institutions its open season on YU and MO?

Anonymous said...

You guys are not getting the simple logic of Hirshel, he is not out to proclaim that Madoff is a YU product, the argument is simple that Ou did has a big part in burying the Rubashkin plant by certain double speak of Genack etc..since he wanted to look clean in the eyes of the MO schnook bloggers or the Buchirim and the Moiden of YU.So Hirshel is waiting for the press release of the MO movement that they condemm Madoff who was sitting on their board,Plus they should start to auction some assets that were purchased with no Hechsher Tzedek money.

Anonymous said...

Josh
Gabi Holtzberg and his wife didn"t hurt nobody its the opposite he provided a warm house for 100's of MO business and YU student.

As a Chassidic Jew I pity Maddof and I would work for his Pidyon Sheviem, and not the goish way of burying a Jew when he is in need

Josh said...

I am not saying that we should be against Habad, I am saying that we should not all pile on YU. They are the victims here, of a terrible scam. This is really going to hurt peoples ability to send kids to day school and YU and its a tragedy just like Mumbai. We can start the politics when the corpses are buried.
I have to say I don't know where the pity for Madoff comes from but maybe its the same place you get pity for Kolko, for Chen, and for Mondrowitz.

Anonymous said...

Brother tzig tonight on yat kislev before I get plasterd like all good lubobs should, I would like to tell you all: Mashiach is here, just open your eyes!

Michael said...

Hirshl,

Kindly tell us : what is the point of this post? Are you kvelling because a non-chossid has been exposed as a crook? Or is it that
he's MO (I don't know if he is - it's irrelevant)? If this makes you happy in the slightest way then shame on you. This is a terrible tragedy for klal Yisroel, not as heart-wrenching as Mumbai, but a tragedy nontheless. What you are doing is called "piling on" in the NFL. Do you think that the anti-semites make a distinction among chassidish, chareidi, MO, Conservative, Reform, etc? They will tell you that fraud and the like comes naturally to Jews without a modifier before Jews. The news coming out of the business world as it reflects on us is frightening. I see no reason to exult.

Anonymous said...

even if one were to accept your interpretation ,try megilla 28a - the part about being maavir on one's middot.

KT
Joel Rich

Gandalin said...

Josh,

Well one difference is that Rabbi Holtzberg ZTL didn't steal billions of dollars from people, including from Jewish charities . . . .

Anonymous said...

Great job Tzig- the Rebbe would be proud of your Ahavas Yisrael. Must've been learning lots of Tanya recently! Shame on you for this post- so farbissen!

schneur said...

Okay did Madoff sit behind the Rav in all his shiurim as the great Chasid and Zaddik Rabbi SZG did at all farbenguns of the Rebbe even after he was convicted !
But Madoff really made 1 mistake in your eyes he didn't donate to the millionaires club and give some money to Chabad then of course he could do no wrong !

Friendly Anonymous said...

There is a difference between scamming the government and scamming individuals. As the Rebbe Reb Rush says, the government itself is a giant Ponzi scheme, paying out money now, based on anticipated receipts from future taxpayers.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Come on, Hershel. You really think YU is going to defend this guy? According to the low figure he stole $100million from them. You're looking for a chance to cry "double standard" at the MO community because you are tzubruchen over Rubashkin. I am a card carrying MO, I support all funds related to their tzaros and I know many other people who answer to that description. On the Rosh Hashana of chasidus, try to have some ahavas yisrael. Gut Yom tov.

Anonymous said...

Shneur
I know that u hate Zalmen Gourarie with a passion since he was a big help in the Hey Teves Seforim case, but the Rebbe had no right al pi Toras Moshe to embarrass a Jew Shoimer torah umitzvos because he did a certain aviro, even if he would have stolen from a other jew which he didn't

For all Chabad haters, Hey teves the day that all haters come out of the woodworks is around the corner,you can start to prepare the annual hate message.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I thought hei teves was when the famous sefarim case was decided. I have no clue about the other side of the story, but what I heard from didan (as in didan natzach --our side won) was that the evil other side (sitra achara) variously described as the Rebbe's brother-in-law, uncle, and some shmendrik who got his hands on the sefarim somehow wanted the valuable collection for himself, while the Rebbe zt"l claimed the sefarim as public property of the chassidus entrusted to the current Rebbe, which was him. Corrections, anybody?

schneur said...

I never met Zalman G. I never was hurt by him. I could care less about his personality. But he was the biggest white colar crook on record in NY state.and as far as jewish losses , I guess the chilul hashem he caused does not bother you.
From your comment it seems that Dina demalchusa is in another Tore not Toras Israel. Why don't you write Tzig and ask him not to embaress Madoff after all the Rebbe did not wish to mevayesh Jimmy... Speaking of shnei dinim... And bitte stop hacking a tcheynik about Heh Teves. Everyone involved is long gone.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Nobody is judging Madoff we are judging the MO behavior towards a family shomerie torah umitzvoth that maybe did something wrong

Anonymous said...

Shneur
Did you weigh exactly the issur of Malbin pnei Chaveiro Berabim vs. the Chilul Hashem, besides I heard then that was 1 of the reasons the rebbe stopped the weekday fabrengens since it was televised

Anonymous said...

i get to work with a bunch of MO accountants and lawyers, and they just love to talk about "heimasha ganuvim". But this week they are a bit quite.
i wonder why ???

Mashgiach Tmidi said...

"Ou did has a big part in burying the Rubashkin plant by certain double speak of Genack etc..since he wanted to look clean in the eyes of the MO schnook bloggers or the Buchirim and the Moiden of YU"

EH...whoever says that, don't know Genack...he's a Boy, with a capital B..an' he do whatever his 'Masa tell him...an' his 'Masa fear more then anything else bad PR that can derail the 'gravy train'

The Bray of Fundie said...

to paraphrase Rav Yisroel Salanter:
די מאדערנע מיינען אז זייער האנדעלעריי איז עהרליך- די היימישע מיינען אז עס איז נישט נויטיג צו האנדעלען עהרליך- ביידע האבען א טעות

Bottom line is that Frum business ethics need a massive cleanup, create massive Chilul haShem with alarming regularity and I humbly suggest are among the prime מעכבים of the גאולה.

Instead of engaging ion spitting contests to see who's crooks are crookeder we out to have a new Pan-Orthodox movement to rethink the way we ALL do business.

Must it take jews getting murdered to be meakhed us?? trust me, thanks to all the finacial chicanery the reputations of MILLIONS of Jews have been murdered. Not least among their fellow Jews!

Bert said...

HT. somewhat of a diff. topic, but also very important.
The oilam was klering:
1)Is Yat kislev mutar be'asias melacha?
2)Is there a chiyuv ad dilo yada on yat kislev?
3)If yes, ad dilo yada bein.....? L....? ?
4)Can one be yoitze w/ wine?
5)What about pot?
6)does the mitzvas shtiya on yad kislev doche other mitzvos like giving out dreidlach and latkes at the mall, and learning tanya?
7)Can one be mikayem the regular chiyuv shtiya that is mutal oif yeder ainer gantz yur w/ the shikrus of yat kilev, or is it tzvei dinim, and tzvei chiyuvim?
8)Is there a Yat kislev Sheini for those that were onsim and couldnt be mikayim this mitzvas eseh?

Awaiting your reply,
untill then, yechi!

Bert

Anonymous said...

Bert
For all your questions please look in Avi Ezri Hilchos Roitzeach and in Michtovim Umamorim (printed in Benai Berak shnas Tirtzach)chelek 770
Untill then stab Povarski on the hill, and say yechi to Markowitz

Bert said...

Anon 9:02:00 PM

Avi Ezri is way above my level of learning. In Eihalei Taira we only learn CHITAS (when we're not giving out latkes at the mall).

BTW, I know Rav shach wrote many seforim, was it over 700?

As far as stabbing, well I dont think thats ahavas yisroel. Lets not forget that we Lubavitchers love EVERY yid. Also, I have been tought by my Lubavitcher Rabbeim that the Rebbe is not happy when his chasidim do avieros.

hicup

berl, crown heights said...

Tzig,
You were right in raising the question of this post. I guess I am still a bit naive – I would never imagine that these people would have the gall to equate garden variety tax evasion or the hiring of illegal workers with Madoff's unprecedented deliberate robbery of countless private individuals and charity funds of their entire capital...
ואין פוצה פה ומצפצף?

Bert,
Yud Tes Kislev is – among other things – our time to thank G-d for not placing us in the tender care of your melamdim and thus saving us from ending up like you. Thank you, Bert for providing this illustration on this most fitting of all days - Chof Kislev! :)
ארור אביגדור אשר ביקש לאבדי

Milhouse said...

אבער א מעלה, ווידער א מעלה...

Anonymous said...

Berl said, "Yud Tes Kislev is – among other things – our time to thank G-d for not placing us in the tender care of your melamdim and thus saving us from ending up like you."

"among other things"?
What are the other THINGS?
Is one of the other things an excuse for the natural urge for lubavitchers to get drunk, and emotionaly remove themselves from the empty lives that they have?

Arthur said...

So much for "achdus"

chaimshmeel said...

Well Bert....
How VERY happy with life you sound. Tell you what- giving out latkes at a mall would probably rank as one of your biggest achievements, and the most you've ever done for another yid. Stop your stupid criticism, and ask yourself - what have I DONE lately...yes, DONE to improve the matzav of klal-yisroel. We all know about the Chabadskers, say what you will, they work overtime helping yidden EVERYWHERE. Stop your cheap shots, and don't blame them for your molestation - they're not involved in what happened to you in the basements on Ocean Parkway.

Anonymous said...

Yat Kislev is when we celebrate the fact that in Oholei Torah, "the Oxbridge of Yeshivos", we follow in the footsteps of the Rosh Yeshiva ztz"l, stabbing each other, occasionally setting off bombs, cutting off the electricity, engage in daily fistfights, pelt the Roshei Yeshiva with leben and rotten tomatoes, smash windows, regularly throw shtenders across the zal, harass women and children telephonically, author a steady stream of pashkivilin, and otherwise learn Torah Lishmah, just like R. Yisrael Salanter envisioned.

Josh said...

How can you give out latkes in the mall?
The Heilige Minhag of אכילת הלטקה requires כוונה and more importantly, גוף נקי. How do you know that some guy at the mall has a גוף נקי? This is another example of subverting halacha for quoteunquote KIRUV.

ע"ע הלכות עשיית הלטקה חלק ג ס' נו ובהערות שם

Benny Hill said...

Josh,
We might normally have to say "teiku", but in this case we can just rely on the same Moron who thought he knew better than Hillel and R' Akiva. And if 'guf naki' was such an issue, most of YU would be patur from tefillin :)

SatmarTC said...

they say that Bernie has to pay a maximmum of 5 million fine
50.000 million minus 5 million = 49.995 million, maximum 20 years jail,it will be much less
if he call Chavez, with few million and some investments in Venezuela ,he becomes a complete new person
ANYWAY
it is very possible that he did teshuva, he can donate the money left to Jewish institutions

Josh said...

"And if 'guf naki' was such an issue, most of YU would be patur from tefillin."
Oh I get it, because with you חרדים its באנוס from your rebbeim but the YU boys touch themselves.
Clever היתר.

Anonymous said...

>>So much for "achdus"

. . .which, thanks to you, is that much more elusive.

>>Lets not forget that we Lubavitchers love EVERY yid.

. . .except, of course, if he's not into Chabad.

Anonymous said...

Josh
Because chasidic men go to the Mikva every morning thats why Briskers will only daven with a Minyan with chasidim, if they will only have non chassidim they will rather daven without minyan

Bert said...

Anon.12:00:00 AM said "Yat Kislev is when we celebrate the fact that..
we follow in the footsteps of..each other,
occasionally..cutting..rotten tomatoes,
smash..the zal,
harass women and children..and R. Yisrael Salanter.."

I gotta be honest with you. I believe you! Knowing This unbelievable religion called "Lubavitch", It makes too much sense to be sarcasm.

Now lets all say together what we all believe-
Yechi!

Josh said...

Good for the Briskers.

Anonymous said...

rumor has that bert was touched in Torah Tmima.....

Ah Bocher said...

Look here, Bertie, I've been around long enough not to be insulted when you and your ilk act along the lines of "whatever you say goes back to you".

No one, and that means no one, is impressed when you deflect pointed criticism of the daily behavior in Ponovezh, "the Oxbridge of Yeshivos", by merely replying that this is what you imagine Oholei Torah'niks do.

That's because they simply don't. I'll expose myself as a third year Talmid of Oholei Torah and assure you that there has not been a single physical (or otherwise) altercation or confrontation, over any matter whatsoever, in OT during the last 3 years, and there is no indication that this could ever occur in the future.

[and BTW, not Chumash, not Tehilim, nor Tanya are even allowed to be studied during seder. Approx. 6 hours are spent on Gemara (Rishonim, etc.), the better part of an hour - Halacha, and 3 hours are spent studying "philosophic", or "Kabbalistic" Chassidus (i.e. not 'inspiring' or 'motivating' mussar, rather, a limud of inyanim iyuni'im as described)]

OTOH, the daily violence at Ponovezh is documented in detail and is published by the local Bachurim, as well as by others. There is no reason to even discuss the obvious, that the elite (and along the totem pole, all members) of the Litvishe Yeshivos are regularly engaged in horrific violence directed against everyone, even their own siblings and relatives.

The students of R. Shach and his legacy lose all credibility in their current and even previous war (published and/or physical) against Chabad, when it transpires that they behave that way towards everyone, from Sephardim to their own or fellow Roshei Yeshiva.

Anonymous said...

Please see my article, 'Hey Bernie, We Hardly Knew Ya!" on my new blog:
www.repentingjewess.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

>>OTOH, the daily violence at Ponovezh is documented in detail and is published by the local Bachurim, as well as by others. There is no reason to even discuss the obvious, that the elite (and along the totem pole, all members) of the Litvishe Yeshivos are regularly engaged in horrific violence directed against everyone, even their own siblings and relatives.

There is not a single accurate sentence in this paragraph. This is the first time I ever heard ANYONE, even in Chabad, alleging the learning in Chabad Yeshivos is on the level of Ponovez, of all places. Lies about daily violent outbursts are completely unfounded and untrue. I am sure I can find two stories of Chabad violence for every single contrived story in Ponovez!

>>The students of R. Shach and his legacy lose all credibility in their current and even previous war (published and/or physical) against Chabad, when it transpires that they behave that way towards everyone, from Sephardim to their own or fellow Roshei Yeshiva.

This remains untrue. So long as you demonstrate the hatred which remains the Rebbe's sole legacy, we all know in our hearts that the Rebbe was fighting against all frum yidden, attempting to destroy their faith in Hashem, and longing for them to worship him. Thankfully, because of your hate, this has failed, and will continue to fail.