Wednesday, December 17, 2008

!רבותינו סרו מן הדרך

!אוי מה הי' לנו
נבלה עשה בישראל, שאלו שקוראים לעצמם "גדולי ישרא-ל"
קבלו לבתיהם ראשי הכת הידוע בארצנו הקדושה שמחרפים ומגדפים,
ומסיתים ומדיחים אלפי ישראל לכפירה באלוקי ישרא-ל
משתפים פעולה עם ראשי ממשלת הכופרים
רבם - מרן רשכבה"ג הגרא"מ שך זצוקללה"ה - דקרו ממש
מרן ראש הישיבה זצ"ל טרח ועמל - בהצלחה גדולה בעז"ה -
להוקיעם מכלל ישראל ובאו המחדשים והרסו את כל מה שפעל
פני הדור כפני הכלב, ואין לנו על מי להישען רק על אבינו שבשמים

All kidding aside, a delegation of Chabad Rabbonim and askonim visited with leading Litvishe Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva and invited them to attend the upcoming shloshim event to commemorate the Kedoshei Mumbai Hy"D. Another delegation also visited Chassidishe Rabbonim and Admorim and presented them with the new Tanya Chassidus Mevueres.



הגאון רבי גרשון איידלשטיין שליט"א משמאל


הגאון רבי נסים קרליץ שליט"א בראש השלחן


הגאון רבי ברוך דוב פוברסקי שליט"א מימין


הגאון הישיש רבי מיכל יהודה לפקוביץ שליט"א בראש השלחן


הגאון רבי נתן צבי פינקל שליט"א


COL
HERE

148 comments:

snag said...

A shandeh.

Lubavitch is using the terrible tragedy of Mumbai to try to circumvent and undermine the great work of מרן הגה"ק הגראממ"ש זצללה"ה.

I am surprised that some of the gedaylim were taken in by this new ploy. משיב חכמים אחור....

There is still time, before the shlayshim, to pull back and wake up. The harchokos that מורנו הגדול זצללה"ה instituted remain in place.

Milhouse said...

דער נאַר מיינט דאָס מיט אן אמת...

Anonymous said...

Snag is right.

Who are these Chabad Rabonim?(names)

I will be very surprised if they go.

Anonymous said...

The announcement is quite offensive and disgusting. Why dont you take down that filth? Don't you have any yiras shomayim?

Anonymous said...

its lubavitch that went off the derech, according the yat kislevv dogma you have to keep a machloke alive even after 200 years

Hirshel Tzig said...

what's offensive?

Anonymous said...

The comment about Rav Shach.

Hirshel Tzig said...

well, do you think this goes against what he was lochem against for all those years?

Anonymous said...

כבר הובטחנו ש"יד החסידים על העליונה"
רווח והצלה יעמוד ליהודים...

או שהם ילמדו לקח מהמעוראות וישתפו פעולה במעמד האחדות או שהם ישבו בחוץ ויתנו דין וחשבון לאחרי מאה ועשרים.
תושב מונסי

snag said...

When were the photos taken? On the Purim of Chassidus (see יום טוב אין דער וואכען thread) earlier this week? Maybe there was a matzav of ad delo yoda shoilet then. Hopefully it will fade soon and the confusion will disappear. Just because there was a geferliche tragedya doesn't mean that everything is mutar and that all boundaries are broken.

בני ברקי said...

אני מוחה על ביזוי כבוד גדולי התורה שליט"א ע"י זה שמכנה עצמו
"SNAG"
ומדבר סרה על רבותינו שליט"א

Anonymous said...

One second... Won't the shloshim asifos be for Rabbis Teitelbaum and Kroman and the two other women murdered? Won't that make it an event that transecends Chabad?

Anonymous said...

>>well, do you think this goes against what he was lochem against for all those years?

I am not sure what you mean by the question, but it seems to justify what he was lochem against for all those years. . .

Hirshel Tzig said...

anon 10:29

how does it justify?

Anonymous said...

Because they demonstrate profound hatred and disrespect toward great talmidei chachomim. I understand that you feel that he did something wrong, but if its wrong, you cannot do it, either. . .

Hirshel Tzig said...

now you're stam being mekabel loshon and motzi shem rah....

Anonymous said...

No, I am writing that the incredibly disgusting language you have written in hebrew on your blog is extremely hateful and demonstrates profound disrespect toward great talmidei chachomim. This only demonstrates the presience of Rav Shach's comments regarding Chabad, some of which you have cited years ago on your blog.

You can take the high road or demonstrate the ruach hakodesh of one of the great Jewish leaders of the last century (whom you obviously hate). Either way, keeping such disgusting, hateful language on your site goes against your stated political agenda.

Hirshel Tzig said...

it's written in jest, but I imagine that's what going on in the hearts and minds of lots of misnagdim

I don't hate the man, I have his biography, and I respect what he did accomplish. I just don't like what he said about MY Rebbe, and about me.

That's not hate.

Anonymous said...

>>it's written in jest, but I imagine that's what going on in the hearts and minds of lots of misnagdim

Its about as funny as what the difference between a jew and a pizza joke? (Pizza does not scream in an oven). If hateful jokes give you so much satisfaction, if disrespecting giants is what gets you off, enjoy. The point remains the same.

>>I don't hate the man


Yes. You do. And you have all those who don't believe Chabad is the most important and only way of being a Jew.

>>I have his biography

You do? Really? Who wrote it?

>>and I respect what he did accomplish.

What did he accomplish according to you?

>>I just don't like what he said about MY Rebbe, and about me.

I don't like what your Rebbe said about MY rabbeim, and what he said about ME. In fact, I don't agree with his message and what he wanted for you, either. I don't like that he was so resistant to criticsm and fostered a martyr complex that is perpetuated by you and your fellow chabad chassim, either.

But you will never see a "joke" about the rebbe written by me.

>>THAT'S not hate.

Its hate.

Hirshel Tzig said...

the difference is clear: I wrote the joke about the Misnagdim, not about the Rosh Yeshivah.

I believe he'd welcome the delegation just the same and be nice and maybe even attend the shloshim were he alive....

How do you like THEM apples???

Another difference is that what my Rebbe did had no direct affect on you. What the Rosh Yeshivah did made lots of people hate me.

You see now?

Now stop repeating yourself.

Anonymous said...

>>Another difference is that what my Rebbe did had no direct affect on you. What the Rosh Yeshivah did made lots of people hate me.

This is a lie you continue to repeat.

Because of the Rebbe, you hate me. Because of the Rebbe, you think I am not fully Jewish. Because of the Rebbe, you despise and mock me and my rabbeim. Because of the rebbe, there will never be a way to heal. His message directly caused you to despite everything I am, and scorn my deepest yearnings and beliefs. Everything I stand for is mocked because of your Rebbe.

The Rosh Yeshiva never said that you should be hated. He never said the Rebbe should be hated, eihter. He merely warned people who are not in Chabad not to be caught up into joining you and to continue in the tradition of their parents. He would not have had to say that if your Rebbe did not teach you that I am incomplete.

Anonymous said...

>>I believe he'd welcome the delegation just the same and be nice and maybe even attend the shloshim were he alive....

would you attend the shloshim of the other kedoshim? One is going to take place, undoubtedly, in Brooklyn. Will YOU be there?

Hirshel Tzig said...

chas vesholom! you're believing lies and conspiracy theories now!

Hirshel Tzig said...

undoubtedly? I haven't seen anything, and I read all the frum papers.

I do live an hour from Brooklyn, so I hope they make one in Monsey.

Anonymous said...

No, this is what I see.

The Rebbe believed that the rebbe of my rebbe is incomplete because he did not learn Tanya. He said so publicly, and implied that he was a misnagid--even though he he has a warm relationship with many chassidish leaders--and this was after his petirah.

He suggested that another rebbe of my rabbeim did not wear kosher tefilling because he criticized him. The rebbe also suggested that those who cannot understand one of the justifications for not sleeping in a sukkah as shluchim of the sitrah achar. The list goes on. My kind has been vilified by him. On this blog alone, my beliefs and great leaders have been insulted.

What I stand for has been mocked because in Chabad, its their way or nothing else at all.

Anonymous said...

I will take your word for it that you would go. But my experience with those from Chabad have been extremely negative, in general.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that no one questioned the beliefs of the late Chabad shaliach in Bombay. If he, like many in Chabad, believed that G-d materialized in the Rebbe's body, then it would be just as proper to mourn the Hindu victims of the terrorists. In any case, to relate to a member of messianic cult in the same way as one does to 2 choshuve yungeleit just because they happened to stop by at the wrong time seems improper.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

"Because of the Rebbe, you think I am not fully Jewish."

I don't know much about the chabad vs. Rav Shach thing and I will defer to those who have more interest in narishe machlokesin. However, this is one that in fairness you can not pin on chabad. I have trouble believing the people who go out looking for people who never ate kosher in their lives except by accident would call shomrei torah umitzvos "incomplete Jews."

SDR said...

I don't hate the man, I have his biography, and I respect what he did accomplish. I just don't like what he said about MY Rebbe, and about me.

That's not hate.

THE TRUTH HURTS

Hirshel Tzig said...

so does getting hit on the head with a blunt object by a thug. So what?

Anonymous said...

I am shomer Torah and mitzvos. Because of the Rebbe, because HE taught you that one who does not learn chassidus is not complete, you think I am not complete.

Hirshel Tzig said...

There's a difference between "Chabad Ainom Yehudim," which was said in public, to being incomplete, which nobody ever said.

Anonymous said...

According to the rebbe, I never learned the pnimous of Torah, because, according to him, the pnimius of Torah is the Tanya.

That, to me, is the same thing.

And the rebbe said this against someone who never attacked him. The ainom yehudim line was said when they felt they were attacked.

Hirshel Tzig said...

felt?

same thing?

do you read what you write?

you call people goyim and their wine nesech because you feel you were attacked?!

I need a vacation...

The Bray of Fundie said...

Tell me... how do you feel about those who learn g'mara quickly and without much iyun? Someone who's never been exposed to Brisker Lomdus?

Anonymous said...

>>you call people goyim and their wine nesech because you feel you were attacked?!

That's a different issue. They were called ovdei avodah zarah because they are ovdei avodah zarah. Would you disagree that Boreinuniks are kofrim?

Hirshel Tzig said...

there were no "boreinu'niks" in 1989. Nice try.

And spare me the "he had a vayte kook."

Friendly Anonymous said...

The Alter Rebbe writes repeatedly that he is not coming to be mechadesh. Rather, that since he has learned a lot more sforim that most other people, he gathers together and teaches us things from those seforim that will inspire us.

If you don't believe me, read the introduction to Tanya. (for those readers who are afraid of learning chitas, wait a couple days)

schneur said...

Now for the next step in the road towards "normalcy" appointing a serious leader for Chabad.

Anonymous said...

He had a vayte kook.

How did the rebbe know that those who were shocked at one of his bases for the pattur of sleeping in a sukka shluchim of the satan?

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I tried learning Tanya once. An am ha'aretz can't write like that, not that he needs my haskama. Chassidus isn't quite my derech halimud but the breadth is impressive. Does anyone know of a hebrew version of "lessons in tanya" on the iggeres hatshuva? When I learnt it in elul I found the commentary helpful but the concepts didn't quite translate.

Hirshel Tzig said...

modeh: try the seriesשעורים בספר התניא

Anonymous said...

I learned Nefesh Hachaim pretty thoroughly along with Reishis Chochma and Leshem. I have noticed that the Tanya disagrees with Rav Chaim, or at least I believe he does. I stick with my derech, although, obviously, the Alter Rebbe was a kadosh v'tahor of a magnitude I will never comprehend.

burech said...

"I don't hate the man, I have his biography, and I respect what he did accomplish. I just don't like what he said about MY Rebbe, and about me."
Well,
What did he say about you?
You need to go easy on the cake?
Don't overdo the vodka?

OT Bocher said...

Mr. offended anonymous, you say that the Rebbe said that you are an incomplete Jew because you don't learn Tanya.

I won't comment on that, but surely you know that the Arizal writes that those who don't learn Kabbala destroy the world, don't get Olam Haba, delay Moshiach's arrival etc. etc. all because they don't learn -drum roll- Pnimiyus HaTorah.

This sentiment is echoed by every single Mekubal including the Gra in Mishlei.

Since Chassidus is merely an eastern European adaptation of Kabbalistic thought and behavior, similar to a modern continuation of the Kabbalistic circles of Tzfas (who incidentally were actively osek in Mivtza Tefilin and Mivtza Mezuza), your anguished cries do sound lame indeed.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel,
As a Lubavitcher, I gotta admire these litvishe roshei yeshivos. Look at the difference between the rebbalach and these roshei yeshivos' homes, offices, etc. The simplicity compared to the cherry wood tables, $10,000 bookcases by these rebbishe houses is astounding.
Men darf lernen epes fun yeder einer, when u go with their derech or not.

shloime miller said...

Tzig, the self-righteous stupidity you tolerate here is unbelievable. To set the record straight for some of you ignorant morons, here are a few facts:

1. All the LR said about the Chazon Ish was that he would be envious of a child that gets to learn Tanya. No insult, and no big deal, merely a strong statement of belief in the pivotal importance of Sefer haTanya.

2. The Lubavitcher Rebbe is on record as strongly encouraging the study of Chassidus as absolutely essential, and also in talks with other Rebbes saying specifically that this did not necessarily mean Chassidus-Chabad, rather he specifically said 'Meor Einayim' or any of the other seforim by the Talmidei Habesht.

3. The Gra writes (paraphrasing) that one who doesn't learn 'pnimius hatorah' cannot possibly pasken a din correctly!! Let's all start a riot - how dare he....

4. If you actually bothered listening to what the LR said about the 'bnei teyreh' with the sukka question, he merely pointed out some key facts. Such as the fact that although Chabad has never slept in the sukka, R'Chaim Volozhiner & R'Itzele Volozhiner (among others) had no problem working together with the Lubavitcher Rebbeim 'ltovas haklal', and that anybody dredging the sukka issue up today is merely an excuse for machlokes. Since machlokes is the tool of the SamechMem, it follows that a shliach to create machlokes = shliach of the Samech Mem. That would obviously have been too much for some insecure people to handle, but it's really no big chiddush. Get over it and do something productive.

Anonymous said...

R' Shachs legendary hate of Lubavitch hasn't really affected most of the eylem hateyreh in such a big way, and will fade out over the next decade. Already now, R'Shach is becoming forgotten, as, except for his insane hatred for many types of Jews, there was nothing really remarkable about him. Just a regular RY in the right place at the right time, and his hateful diatribes got him the media spotlight for a short while.
Too many (much) greater Rebbes and Rabbonim DID have good relationships with the Rebbe, for R'Shach to be taken seriously, especially now that he's gone.

OT Bocher said...

The GRA also writes (in Yeshaya) that someone who isn't בקי in הוויות דעוה"ז can't pasken a din either.

So the GRA is in fact being שולל the מושג of "Daas Torah" (not that it ever existed), and is denigrating all current 'Gedolim', וואס ווערן ארומגעפירט פארן נאז by every budding 'askan'.

It's also interesting that R. Shach is described in the biographies (and it was always known) as being totally אויסגעטאן פון וועלט and לאו מדרי דאונא. So...

Yankel said...

>>I won't comment on that, but surely you know that the Arizal writes that those who don't learn Kabbala destroy the world, don't get Olam Haba, delay Moshiach's arrival etc. etc. all because they don't learn -drum roll- Pnimiyus HaTorah.

The Rebbe referred stated in his defense of the drunk mashpia that CHASSIDUS is the pnimius of Torah. No one here is ignoring the vital need to learn nistar. The CI was fluent in it too. The problem was that despite that, the rebbe suggested that he is envious of children learning tanya because TANYA is the pnimius of Torah. That's the insult.

Anonomous 11:21: The only hate which is famous is that of Lubavitchers like yourself toward Rav Shach. The fact you spew so much dishonesty into one post is not a credit to yout creativity, but a testament to your undying, unyielding, passionate hate toward one of the great talmidei chachomim of the last generation.

Stop making things up. If that's all you can do, you don't belong in this debate, and you certainly need something else to do.

Anonymous said...

Shlomie,

I am not denying the fact that the rebbe contrived justifications for the mean, hateful things he said. I am just writing that shluchim of the samech mem is extremely hateful and disgusting. I could give a nice background to everything Rav Shach said, too. But you would only look to the words, and pounce on any opportunity you have to act self righteuos. All I am exposing is the fact that the same can be applied to the rebbe, too.

Personally, the CI story bothers me much more, as the rebbe was obviously extremely angrered when he spoke to Rav Kahana.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

All biographies say things like that and are at many times revisionist so as to avoid חס ושלום ever saying anything about a gadol of the "previous generation" that might come to contradict the current ideas of what a rosh yeshiva should be.

Dov Ber said...

Somewhere along the line, the Chabad sympathizers and haters of all things outside of Chabad have ignored a crucial point.

The Chazon Ish held the Vilna Gaon to be his Rebbi. His entire approach in life was based on the Gaon. The CI's knowledge of Nistar (not to mention Niglah), although (as Litvish tzadikim are wont) he was quite about it, was well known among the mavinem.

The Rebbe, however, still supported the words of someone who did not know the CI, who never met nor learned his seforim, made while being intoxicated, on the basis that CHASSIDUS (and in this case, Tanya) is the Pnimius of Torah--not merely Toras nistar. Look at what was written and said. This was NOT a paen to Toras Nistar, but to Tanya. Now, what's wrong with that? Nothing, really. The Rebbe could have said, "Look, this is our way. This is how we look at Nistar." But he did not. Instead, he crafted a logically unsound proof for motzi shem rah, without thinking that such talk would cause.

I found that to be an incredibly demeaning way to talk about a great gadol who was already niftar. I found it very reprehensible, also, that the Rebbe more than tacitly implied that the Chazon Ish, a man who was close with several chassidish giants, was a misnagid against the works of the Tanya--a notion that cannot be supported by anything in writing or by word of mouth.

It was a dark day when the rebbe supported this slander. Instead of promoting shalom, he promoted unbrideled hatred--a reverse hisnagdus of sorts--which exposed a lot ugliness.

OT Bocher said...

ok anonymous/whatever:

a) anyone objective can see that the Chassidic "movement" was just an evolution of the pious circles of Kabbala (like I wrote); to stop at Chassidus is like to stop at the Arizal, or the Zohar, or... Anyone who doesn't subscribe to your (spiteful?) subjective view on Chassidus would agree that someone who stops at Chassidus has neglected part of the Torah. The Rebbe is by all counts entitled to say that the Chazon Ish is missing out on part of Olam Haba, the same way the Arizal could state the same regarding his own Torah.

b) you are not a maven on Kabbala, nor are your friends in Yeshiva, nor are you a maven on mevinim. So it follows that your statements are far more baseless than the Rebbe's could ever possibly be.

c) when the Rebbe spoke, he assumed his audience considered him a leading authority on all matters including those of the spiritual realm. thus it's no wonder you are angered by the Rebbe's words, cause you don't consider him on authority. cause if you did, then you'd think that what he said was true, right?

So, simply put, your problem isn't with what he said, your problem is that you weren't machshiv him in the first place.

So, why are you complaining to those who are machshiv him? There's obviously nothing they could ever tell you that would satisfy you, yet there is nothing you could ever say that would disturb them.

Unless the discussion is actually whether the Rebbe is an authority who is his own words' source, then your repeated moaning is worthless and futile.

Moshe Peltz said...

The only reprehensible thing is that a pathological liar like Dov Ber is stupid enough to continue posting fantasies. You need a dictionary first, moron. All the Rebbe said about the CI was that he would be envious of a child learning Tanya - big deal !!
That you would attempt to equate this in any way with the reckless hate spewed over the years by R' Shach, not just against Lubavitch, but against most other kreizen, is sickening. Get it- Dov Ber, we see through your lies, give it up.

yankel b. said...

Sure, the Cubavitcher Rebbe taught hate.... like Rav Schach taught love! As the other post pointed out, for anyone who's ever travelled outside the ghetto, we see the Chabadskers giving up the good life to help frimme & freye yidden everywhere. To all those chachumim sitting & criticizing from Lakewood / Brooklyn & wherever else, you have real chitzpe. What have YOU ever done, drek, that you dare criticize these mesirus-nefesh yidden ?!
We see what your rebbeim taught, and we see what the chabadsker rebbe taught his talmidim. Actions speak louder than words.

Anonymous said...

>>a) anyone objective can see that the Chassidic "movement" was just an evolution of the pious circles of Kabbala (like I wrote); to stop at Chassidus is like to stop at the Arizal, or the Zohar, or... Anyone who doesn't subscribe to your (spiteful?) subjective view on Chassidus would agree that someone who stops at Chassidus has neglected part of the Torah. The Rebbe is by all counts entitled to say that the Chazon Ish is missing out on part of Olam Haba, the same way the Arizal could state the same regarding his own Torah.

This is an extremely disingenuous assertion, as you are being extremely subjective. Chassidus is another perspective, not part of a progression of Kabbalah. It is a discipline . The Gaon was cholek on some aspects, and his views as enshrined by R' Chaim Volozhiner are as legitamite. One has but another path. If I were to say that the Rebbe is jealous of my learning Nefesh HaChaim, would you not think that crazy?

>>b) you are not a maven on Kabbala, nor are your friends in Yeshiva, nor are you a maven on mevinim. So it follows that your statements are far more baseless than the Rebbe's could ever possibly be.

WHOA. What do you know about my knowledge or the knowledge of my friends? I am merely applying the same logic the Rebbe applied. He is jealous of me because I learn Nefesh Hachaim or other sefroim which, simply put, were not available to him. According to the rebbe's logic, this makes a great deal of sense, so long as I have someone to back up that Nefesh HaChaim or anything else is the pnimius of Torah.

>>c) when the Rebbe spoke, he assumed his audience considered him a leading authority on all matters including those of the spiritual realm.

Ok. . . Using your subversive and disrespectful tactics, I can suggest that just because the rebbe assumed his audience considered him an authority does not mean he is one. And certainly you or anyone in his audience no very little about these matters, either. This is supported by the fact that all you can do is denigrate me and everyone else with vicious personal insults instead of writing about the issues. Because you are hater.

>>thus it's no wonder you are angered by the Rebbe's words, cause you don't consider him on authority.

I never wrote this before and I never would. You are assuming things here. Because you hate me and everyone else like me. Because that is what you were taught.

>>cause if you did, then you'd think that what he said was true, right?

This kind of absurd logic is not going to get you anywhere. What the rebbe said about the Chazon Ish was factually incorrect. The Chazon Ish was fluent in Toras Nistar, including everything by the Gaon. Becasue the Rebbe hates the Vilna Gaon and his followers, because he only considers Chassidus legitamite, and because he only considers chassidus the pnimius of Torah, he supported motzi shem rah made by an intoxicated man who has no knowledge--academic or personal--about the Chazon Ish. Furthermore, the Rebbe based his support for this slander on assumption which are incorrect: namely, that the Chazon Ish was a misnaged. Anyone who knows history knows this to be untrue. This is the issue. All you can do is suggest personal animosity or politics to get out of this obvious problem. Its dishonest and its not going to work. This was a travesty. And your continued attempts to attack those who are trying to bring some shalom and clarity into the fore only compounds it.

>>So, simply put, your problem isn't with what he said, your problem is that you weren't machshiv him in the first place.

The problem is that the Rebbe was not machshiv anyone who did not learn Tanya. I would not be upset about it if YOU made this statement. The fact that it bothers me shows that I respect the Rebbe. Your incredibly fallacious and disingenuous logic fails to recognize that the only one who was not machshiv someone else was the Rebbe himself: he humiliated a mes in public by supporting motzi shem rah.

>>So, why are you complaining to those who are machshiv him?

You are clearly not machshiv the Chazon Ish. This is because the Rebbe demonstrated that its muttar to insult him. This is the problem.

>>There's obviously nothing they could ever tell you that would satisfy you, yet there is nothing you could ever say that would disturb them.

I am not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that you don't care about motzi shem rah on a mes?

>>Unless the discussion is actually whether the Rebbe is an authority who is his own words' source, then your repeated moaning is worthless and futile.

This demonstrates the paucity of your logic.

yitzchok i. d said...

I think Bray of Fundie put it best;
"Blogger The Bray of Fundie said...

Tell me... how do you feel about those who learn g'mara quickly and without much iyun? Someone who's never been exposed to Brisker Lomdus?" Simple enough, one would think, especially when there are similar comments in shas etc. But don't try telling that to these insecure robots, they're just as badly brainwashed as their 'loving' teachers :)

Moshe Peltz said...

What an idiot this Dov Ber is. Have you ever opened a tanya ? Do you even know what it is ? Tanya is mainly a collection of excerpts and explanations of the ohar, kisvei Ari, R'Chaim Vital, and some Maharal - so, yes, Tanya can well be called the most comprehensive work of toras hanistar in the last 500 years. Keep blowing smoke, Dov Ber...
Is this the stuff they feed in your yeshiva ?

Dov Ber said...

>>The only reprehensible thing is that a pathological liar like Dov Ber is stupid enough to continue posting fantasies.

I have never lied here. I don't think you know what the words pathological liar means. I certainly cannot understand what you are trying to say--a pathological liar is stupid AND fantasizing? Instead of lashing out with hate, you can respond with substance as I have. If you cannot, all you do is make yourself look very bitter.

>>You need a dictionary first, moron.

You lack of creativity and originality aside, it appears that you have not read what was written.

>>All the Rebbe said about the CI was that he would be envious of a child learning Tanya - big deal !!

That is not what he said, that is a notion he justified based on very curious grounds.

>>That you would attempt to equate this in any way with the reckless hate spewed over the years by R' Shach, not just against Lubavitch, but against most other kreizen, is sickening. Get it- Dov Ber, we see through your lies, give it up.

So you are saying Rav Shach was worse because he was more "reckelss"? Are you acknowleding, then, that the Rebbe wsa reckless? Because that was my point.

Personally, I think its a reckless and hateful to suggest anything but chassidus is outside of pnimius of Torah. In fact, I believe its worse. The Rebbe demonstrated profound dislike for anyone outside his fold. And that is more global than anything you have tried to paste on Rav Shach.

Dov Ber said...

Bray's comment is irrelvant. The question is how would you feel if I were to maintain, based on the Rebbe's that HE and the Baal HaTanya are jealous of me because I learn seforim which I maintain to be the pnimius of Torah--seforim which were not available to them.

It would be obscene, and you would have EVERY right to use the language you have used on me.

But I would not write that way: its disgusting.

And my point is that the Rebbe by doing what he did technically did the same to CI and the Vilna Gaon.

Hirshel Tzig said...

DovBer

the problem is that you in your infinite wisdom cannot fathom that the Rebbe had great respect and yes, Yiras HaKoved - for the Gro. It's well known how the Rebbe hut zich gekocht in divrei HaGro certainly when it came to his seforim on Nigloh, and the Rebbe was well-versed in his Seforim on Nistar. (I would dare say that the Rebbe was "forced" to not accept the Divrei HaGro in Nistar only because of his connection to Chabad. But that's my "kefirah.")

For you to say that the Rebbe "hated" the Gro is juvenille, idiotic, and shows you have a hard time separating fantasy from reality. You need to remove yourself from your 10th grade mindset for a moment and see that. You also need to stop comparing yourself to the Rebbe by sayig that "if I would say etc." the comparison is just not there, if you get my drift...

m.mandel said...

Tell us again, Dov Ber, how Rav Hutner was against the Rebbe. His correspondence with the Rebbe spanned over 40 years, and just recently his own letters to the Rebbe have been published, including some where he denies a rumor ever speaking against the Rebbe, and concludes by signing " bitzefiya amulo l'hisborech, yitzchok ben chana". So who do we believe, a shameless liar like you, or Rav Hutner himself ?!

WE GET YOUR DESPERATE LIES, NOW GO HOME TO PAPA.

m.mandel said...

Which gutter were you hatched in Dov Ber, if you think there's any comparison between calling people "heretics" and labeling their wine "yayin nessech" etc, and saying that a great Rov would be envious of learning Tanya ?
You're one sick puppy if you can even think that way.

Dov BEr said...

>>For you to say that the Rebbe "hated" the Gro is juvenille, idiotic, and shows you have a hard time separating fantasy from reality.

The fact you write this way demonstrates you have no substance--only insult.

>>You need to remove yourself from your 10th grade mindset for a moment and see that.

Again, just insults, no substance.

>>You also need to stop comparing yourself to the Rebbe by sayig that "if I would say etc." the comparison is just not there, if you get my drift...

I don't get your drift at all. Playing some kind of superior card (whatever that means) is not a compelling argument. Besides, I am not saying the rebbe is my equal. I am saying that his statement would be interpreted as disgusting if someone else made it about your Torah. The fact that you get so upset thinking that I am even comparing the rebbe to me gets you so upset supports my argument.

The fact remains that what he said was disgusting, because he implied that the Gaon's Toras Nistar and those who follow it are not learning the pnimius Hatorah. This is a fact. He maintained that only Chassidus is the pnimius of Torah. This means that everyone outside of Chabad who did not learn Tanya is not learning Pninmius Hatorah. That is exclusion and fosters hatred.

>>the problem is that you in your infinite wisdom cannot fathom that the Rebbe had great respect and yes, Yiras HaKoved - for the Gro. It's well known how the Rebbe hut zich gekocht in divrei HaGro certainly when it came to his seforim on Nigloh, and the Rebbe was well-versed in his Seforim on Nistar.

I don't know if your representation is true, but look at your insults again. I cannot fathom it? I can easily FATHOM it. I simply don't BELIEVE it. Not unless you have something in writing. Otherwise we KNOW that the rebbe knew nothing about the Chazon Ish personally (or even his seforim which discussed nistar like concepts) when he made his bold declaration. We also KNOW that he held that ONLY chassidus is pnimius hatorah, thereby excluding everything, and yes, everyone else, myself included.
That is exclusionary and hateful.

Dov Ber said...

>>Tell us again, Dov Ber, how Rav Hutner was against the Rebbe. His correspondence with the Rebbe spanned over 40 years, and just recently his own letters to the Rebbe have been published, including some where he denies a rumor ever speaking against the Rebbe, and concludes by signing " bitzefiya amulo l'hisborech, yitzchok ben chana". So who do we believe, a shameless liar like you, or Rav Hutner himself ?!

I am LYING? This is unbelievable. Look at the way you debase yourself. Point out three letters Rav Hutner wrote to the rebbe in his published letters. Send me the letter he wrote denying that he talked out against the Rebbe. Then show it to his hundreds of talmidim who have reported exactly what Rav Hutner said about the Rebbe as early as the 70s!

Again, I am not lying, merely reporting facts. All you have to write in response are disgusting, hateful comments.

I was not hatched, by the way, though I am impressed with your ahavas yisroel. I think that excluding all klal yisroel outside of chabad from learning Toras Nistar--which, as some may know, Toras Nistar is extremely important--is not at all different from suggesting a yid to be an heretic. I don't think it demonstrated sickness to believe this--merely an elevated understanding of what the pnimius haTorah really means for all Jews.

Hirshel Tzig said...

DovBer

you cleverly omit the parts where I show you WHY I say that your comments are juvenille, and you address the parts you like. How convenient for you. If you continue to do that you will be banished from this here site.

Understand?

Dov Ber said...

I apologize, which part of your post did I "cleverly omit" which "SHOW" why you slandered me?

I have been nothing but SUPREMELY honest, patient and forthright. Your attempt to brandish otherwise is a shameful demonstration not merely of your character but of your beliefs.

Hirshel Tzig said...

which part? this part:
Rebbe had great respect and yes, Yiras HaKoved - for the Gro. It's well known how the Rebbe hut zich gekocht in divrei HaGro certainly when it came to his seforim on Nigloh, and the Rebbe was well-versed in his Seforim on Nistar. (I would dare say that the Rebbe was "forced" to not accept the Divrei HaGro in Nistar only because of his connection to Chabad. But that's my "kefirah.")


This part. and please try and stick to the gist of what I'm saying, not the last words.

Dov Ber said...

If I continue? WHEN did I DO it? To continue something means that I started something. I never purposefully omitted anything. I think you have to read what I wrote. Either way, nothing was achieved with the sarcasm and bitter hatred. You only demonstrate a lack of substance and the inability to properly address my point.

I am also appalled at your inability to distinguish between honesty/facts and the disingenuous of m.mandel and Albert! The fact that you only single me out demonstrates that your effort to throw me out is entirely political in nature. You should be ashamed.

Hirshel Tzig said...

ok, I'm ashamed. But you insult me and my Rebbe over and over again. That's why you get singled out.

Dov Ber said...

I quoted that directly. And I explained why your point does not have any bearing on my argument.

I expect an apology. If you had any decency, you would apologize.

Anonymous said...

I never insulted you. And the Rebbe insulted me, MY way of Life, and the way of my life of family, yeshivas, rabbeim. That's why I am so upset. The rebbe hated me and everything I believe in and stand for. Because of that, you spit at me, deride me, my teachers and beliefs.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I see now, and I apologize. It's just tough to get to those parts when you need to plow through your other comments....

But then again you go and deny it! Like a good commie you deny anything that doesn't suit you.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anon 12:38

now you're stam being a pest. go away.

Dov Ber said...

Tzigl:

I will give you a deal:

Find me five positive things the rebbe said about the gaon on toras nistar and I will acknowledge your point.

I ask you not to belittle my feelings when I tell you, in all sincerity, that I feel excluded by Chabad because I have a different path than you. And I am very, very pained when my rabbeim are called ktanim, worse than hitler, and ohev yishomel in hell and generally derided by those in Chabad. I understand you feel that he attacked your Rebbi. But I didn't. My family didn't. And my Rabbeim didn't. So why are they called mindless drones? Fakers? or Worse?

I think I gave you a good reason as to why I am so offended. I think that if you think objectively, you would see where I am coming from. Don't think this fight it one-sided, that is all I ask. My family is a frum family, davening in a frum shul. People from Chabad come in on Yom Tov and try to be mekarev me to Chabad. And I know its because they think I am incomplete. That just hurts.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I'll try and put it together for you, but realize this: most things that were said here came as responses to your attacks. They were reactive. Not so with you.

Dov Ber said...

I DID NOT ATTACK!!! MY comments were reactive!

snag said...

"assumption which are incorrect: namely, that the Chazon Ish was a misnaged. Anyone who knows history knows this to be untrue."

I am moiche on this rewriting of history and bizoyon of the Chazon Ish.

mike reicher said...

Pass the meds. Dovber feels threatened and insecure because the Lubabs come to his shul!!!
He feels inferior and attacked so he manufactures hate and ranting monologues.
You need a doctor, not a godol. If they feel spreading chasidic stuff or their rebbes teachings is their mission, why would you feel inferior or hated ?!
Especially considering all the good they do - you need a real job (after the medication, please).

Anonymous said...

Tzig the past few days here remind me of my high school years.
Maybe post something diff. so that the kids will stop fighting.

Dov Ber said...

>>You need a doctor, not a godol. If they feel spreading chasidic stuff or their rebbes teachings is their mission, why would you feel inferior or hated ?!
Especially considering all the good they do - you need a real job (after the medication, please).

This is illustrative of the typical hate and paucity of thinking which characterizes the reverse hisnagdus of Chabad.

When someone says that you, as a Jew, are nothing because you are not Chassidish, that's fine, but if smoeone feels Chabad's ways are not Jewish, that's fine. Imagine if these people who think you are not Jewish because of your beliefs would try to convert you!!!

Instead of looking at the good, you contrive the bad. There is so much hatred in you, that you cannot help yourself.

Such hatred and illogic is beyond medication. YOu need something for your soul.

Anonymous said...

What do you know about my job? You are so juevenile in your attacks, its so pathetic. Instead of trying to make peace, you make way, you fight, and contrive the most ridiculous issues in an effort to cover your inability to respond with substance. What a nebach you are!

Anonymous said...

Dov Ber
Whats your proof that the CI knew toras Hanistar? are you like you the chassidim that believe that Skverer Rebbe knows kol hatora as the Ragatchover,
and if you are in a beliving mood then maybe he knew tanya too?

Anonymous said...

It was noted on this thread that the CI was a proponent of the Gaon. That is enough to indicate that he spent a lot time learning Toras Nistar. Besides, have you ever spent time learning his works?

I think its quite silly to assume anyone knows kol hatora as the Ragatchover.

Anonymous said...

Dov Bear
The Rebbe had a quite good relationship with Reb Moshe Fienstien and Rav Henkin and Reb Shlome Zalman eventough they were not chassidim,He was the first chabad Rebbe to quote the GR"A in his Haggada and in LS So dont go on and make the Rebbe in to the people hater which the opposite is true he was the biggest Ohev Yisroel in our genaration. So if he said something then, he felt it was important to say for the sake of hafotzas penimus hatorah

Dov Ber said...

Dov Ber,

That is silly, anyone who TRIED learning Emunah U'Btachon can see (if he is enough of a maven) the profoundity of the CI's learning in Nistar.

Besides, the rebbe held the CI to be a shaygitz NOT because he did not learn Nistar, but because pnimius hatorah is only chassidus. That is the sole basis of my consternation. But I suppose I can appreciate your effort to change the issue.

Anonymous said...

which part of his torah you would like to farher me?

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe did not have an actual close relationship with any of the gedolim you mention. They spent very little time together on any thing. Rav Henkin and Rav Shlomo Zalman, particularly. The whole notion of the latter having a relationship is suspicious because the only "proof" you have is from Rav Wolpe, who I do not believe to be credible based on many of the frankly strange things he wrote in his life. But even R' Moshe and the Rebbe were not close enough to be regarded as friends.

>>So dont go on and make the Rebbe in to the people hater which the opposite is true he was the biggest Ohev Yisroel in our genaration.

That's a very, very subjective statement. In the rebbe's opinon, I never learned the pninmius of Torah because I don't learn Tanya. This applies, even more unbelievably, to the CI and all the other gedolei yisroel and klal yisroel outside of CHabad.

>>So if he said something then, he felt it was important to say for the sake of hafotzas penimus hatorah

. . .which according to him is very, very limited as it applied only to the teaching of the Alter Rebbe and his progeny. I understand how the rebbe may have felt, but I don't believe it flowed from ahavas yisroel. He clearly had an issue with the approach of many Jews, and he had no qualms in supporting nasty statements to that effect, even if they were made against gedolei yisroel who preceded him, as well.

Anonymous said...

Anonomous 6:44:

Please clarify: Are you claiming to be familiar with everything the CI ever wrote on kol hatorah? I would be MORE than glad to oblige a farher. Frankly, I doubt you can understand his nistar.

Anonymous said...

Dov Bear
In the Hagoan, Reb Chaim Kanievski is quoted as saying that the CI is a misnaged but felt that its better to hide it from the public,
From my reading of the Emuna uBitochon included the censured perokim, he comes across as anti kabala,plus his anti chassidic view on bitachon,

The negative view on people with non kabala leaning is allready in nigla detorah of the Shulchan Oruch Harav Hilchos Talmud Torah

Anonymous said...

On Rav Henkin I know from his family nothing from Volpe,

Anonymous said...

The CI was not anti nistar--that is slander of the lowest kind. He was fluent in it.

And he was not the kind of misnagid who was below develop close relationships with many great chassidish leaders, and he never said that the great chassidish leaders before him did not learn pnimius hatorah.

This cannot be said about the rebbe. . .

Anonymous said...

Anon6:52
You are 100% correct his nistar I cant understand since there is none

Anonymous said...

The Rebbe suggested that pnimius hatorah is only chassidus, this is not reflected in shulchan oruch harah in hilchos talmid torah.

BTW, it is canard to suggest the CI was against nistar, its the most obscene level of motzi shem rah on a mes I have ever seen.

Anonymous said...

The same Alter Rebbe that wrote Chassidus and its shitos in Achdus Hashem, is the same alter rebbe that wrote the Shulchan Oruch,The Rebbe as a Chabad Rebbe is obliged to do the outmost to hook on people to the chassidic philosophy of Achdus Hashem,you people are so ignorant get your self a shovel job with your pick up truck and bug off these subjects

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I ask you not to belittle my feelings when I tell you, in all sincerity, that I feel excluded by Chabad because I have a different path than you. And I am very, very pained when my rabbeim are called ktanim, worse than hitler, and ohev yishomel in hell and generally derided by those in Chabad.
Wow. Your experience with chabad seems to be kind of like mine with yeshivishers. Except here I have never heard a chabadnik say a word against a non-chabad gadol except Rav Shach and that was "we don't talk about him because machlokes is me'akev the geula." Also, based on my dealings with chasidim I find it hard to believe the rebbe would have denigrated people who didn't follow his derech. Once my opinions of kabbalah and chassidus (pretty much the direct opposite of anything a chossid would find remotely palatable) came up in conversation with a chossid he goes "OK. Nistar isn't the whole Torah." and the conversation kept on going, without even an awkward silence.

Dov Bere said...

>>The same Alter Rebbe that wrote Chassidus and its shitos in Achdus Hashem, is the same alter rebbe that wrote the Shulchan Oruch

But HE did not write that only chassidus is the pnimius hatorah.

>>,The Rebbe as a Chabad Rebbe is obliged to do the outmost to hook on people to the chassidic philosophy of Achdus Hashem,

to the extent that everyone else's torah is outside the fold of pnimius hatorah?

>>you people are so ignorant get your self a shovel job with your pick up truck and bug off these subjects

I am not sure what you mean by this. You may be trying to avoid a tough topic, but hurling insults is not the correct manner to address legit, sincere questions.

Modeh,

The Chabadniks are on this thread and the one below. They are there for you to witness. The level of degradation and abused I recieved from Lubavitchers despite my sincerity was beyond anything I would imagine from the worst of goyim--with cruely, malice, and sadism. The manner in which Rav Shach is described on these threads is nothing short of perverse and obscene. Your experience may be different. Sadly, mine is documented for all to see.

Rebbetzin said...

Dov Ber,

Here are 6 times the Rebbe either quotes or refers to the opinion of the גר"א:

1)תורת מנחם תשט"ז חלק ב' שיחת פורים ע' 155

2) תורת מנחם תשי"ט חלק ב' שיחת פורים ע' 153

3) ליקוטי שיחות כרך לה הוספות י"ט כסלו ע' 279

4) ליקוטי שיחות כרך לח הוספות שלח ע' 199

5) ליקוטי שיחות כרך לב הוספות מצורע ע' 236

6) אגרות קודש כרך ג' תקי

Interestingly, in the first source I gave you the Rebbe writes וכידוע בפסקי אדמו"ר הזקן שהתחשב מאד בדעת המג"א.
The הערה there leads you to the Hakdama of the Shulchan Aruch Harav where the Alter Rebbe's sons write, "מיוסד ע"פ דעת כל הפוסקים ראשונים ואחרונים ובראשם הרב בעל מג"א"

This information creates quite a solid case. Don't you think?

Rebbetzin said...

Anonymous 6:24 wrote that the Rebbe is the first Rebbe to quote the GR"A.

Actually, the גר"א is quoted many times in the שו"ת of the Tzemach Tzedek.

If you'd like to see it for yourself, got to: http://chabadlibrary.org/ and write גר"א in the search engine.
See what happens.

Hirshel Tzig said...

?ווי קומט צו א רביצין אזא בקיאות

Rebbetzin said...

Oh, one more thing.

I totally understand if you can't belittle yourself to answer my post, as I am from the category of 'נשים, עבדים וקטנים'.

Chavi said...

Internet search engines

Hirshel Tzig said...

are you answering for her?

Anonymous said...

55 results for the Gra in computer typed Torah of the Rebbe:

here.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Come on rabeissai. Let women into the conversation. It means you'll have to give up on some lashon zachor words like rabbeissai, but it's well worth it to raise the quality of posting from the "your rosh yeshiva's a hater" and "no your rebbe is" kind of thing that's going on. As for where rebbetzins get their bekius, at least in beis yaakovs, the girls are taught not to talk in learning to men. Thus, while their husbands/brothers/guests are arguing with each other and shouting each other down the rebbetzins listen and actually learn something. Also, the beis yaakovs treat knowledge as concrete rather than abstract which cultivates bekius as opposed to am ha'artzus.

Rebbetzin said...

Don't worry.

I read all the sources before I posted them.

Anonymous said...

Oh Tzig, please don't allow stuff like this up:

"The level of degradation and abused (sic) I recieved (sic) from Lubavitchers despite my sincerity was beyond anything I would imagine from the worst of goyim--with cruely (sic), malice, and sadism".

Besides the fact that we've just been called "worse than hitler" (sound familiar?), besides it's inherent silliness, it is harmful and just plain incitement. Anyone not following the conversation or without an opinion might actually believe him.

After all, if we're more degrading and abusive and cruel and malicious and sadistic than Hitler and the Nazis, just because we disagree with this raving, er, guy, who can't digest the idea that the Rebbe might actually know what's going on in Gan Eden, or just might be entitled to a view on the Chazon Ish, or... really, Hirshel, there's a point where you gotta call it quits.

Anonymous said...

נו וואס זאגסטו הערשל, מ'באדארף זיי שפייען אין פנים ווי ס'דארף צו זיין, און באווייזן אז אונז ווערן נישט נתפעל פון זיי:

משיחת י"ט כסלו ה'תשכ"ב:

זהו גם ענינו של י"ט כסלו - שאז הי' הנצחון של לימוד תורת החסידות שיהי' בגלוי ובהבנה ובהשגה, ומאז נעשה באופן שהולך ומתפשט והולך ומתרחב לאורך ולרוחב ולעומק,

ועד כדי כך, שאפילו אלו שפעם לא היו מרוצים או גם התנגדו לתורת החסידות, מצטערים עתה אם מזכירים להם שפעם עמדו בתנועה כזו, כיון שעתה נמצאים הם בעולם האמת, ויודעים את האמת כפי שהוא, ולכן, כאשר מזכירים להם הנהגתם בעבר, ובפרט אם על סמך זה רוצים גם עתה לאחוז אפילו בקצה ושמץ מההתנגדות או העדר שביעת רצון ההיא - הרי זה ענין שמונע מהם להגיע אל ה"מקום" שחפצים להגיע אליו, בידעם את האמת לאמיתתו, שכל החששות וכו' וכו' לא הי' להם שום יסוד; זהו ענין שכולו הוא פנימיות התורה, אלא כפי שנדרש שיהי' בגלוי.

(כ"ק אדמו"ר שליט"א אמר בבת-שחוק:) בכלל אין זה ענין להזכיר בי"ט כסלו את הגאון מווילנא, אבל בכל אופן, בפירושו למשלי [ב,ט. ד, כב. ה, יח. ז, יב] כותב הגאון מוווילנא, שאי אפשר לכוין ולפסוק דין בנגלה דתורה לאמיתתו, ללא ידיעה בפנימיות התורה!

מדוע ההעלם וההסתר גדול כל כך, שחסידי ליובאוויטש יודעים זאת, וישנם אחרים שמעלימים עין מזה - אינני יודע; שאלה זו צריכים להפנות אליהם ומסתמא יבוא הזמן שגם העלם והסתר זה יתבטל.

ובכל אופן - ניתי ספר וניחזי דבר מפורש שחור ע"ג לבן, שנכתב ע"י הגאון מווילנא, ונדפס ע"י תלמידיו.

ויסוד הדברים - שהתורה היא "תורה אחת" (תורה אחת לכולנו), ואי אפשר בלאה"כ, ובפרט ע"פ דרשת חז"ל במסכת סנהדרין "וה' עמו, שהלכה כמותו בכל מקום", כמבואר בארוכה בהמשך תרס"ו, במאמרי אדמו"ר מהר"ש, ועוד מאמרים לעילא ולעילא בקודש - עד כמה נוגע הענין דפנימיות התורה כדי לכוין ההלכה לאמיתתה.

Anonymous said...

Modeh B'Miktsas said: "the beis yaakovs treat knowledge as concrete rather than abstract which cultivates bekius as opposed to am ha'artzus".

Rebbetzin said: "I read all the sources before I posted them".

Well apparently אין חכמה לאשה אלא בפלך. It is clear that Rebbetzin thinks the מג"א is the גר"א. Well it's not, it's the מגן אברהם who lived 100 years earlier.

Rebbetzin is correct in pointing out that the Rebbe did mention the גר"א a paragraph earlier. But the Rebbe (in this case) is stating that the Alter Rebbe paskened like the מג"א even though the גר"א is שולל לגמרי דעה זו ("מיט אַ געוואַלדיקער התפעלות").

The ביאור הגר"א על או"ח was first published 3 years before the Alter Rebbe's petira.

Dov Ber said...

I never said anything about Hitler. I think anyone with a fair, objective mind reviewing this thread would find the rantings of the Chabadniks here malicious and degrading and not in keeping their purported ahavas yisroel. Even the tone of your comment is completely inappropriate. If one was to say the kedoshim in mumbai are jealous of children in litvish chedder reading storied about the birkser rav because toras brisk is the pnimius hatroah, you would go beserk. Imagine people defiling kedoshim like that. Then imagine everyone laughing and demeaning you because you have the supposed gall to think that the indiviual who made that statement should have been more thoughtful.

I never for once assumed that this was an argument about whether the rebbe knew what was going on in shomayim. The statement he supported as to what was going on in shomayim was not made by the Rebbe's equal in saintliness and CERTAINLY not in learning. The Rebbe's support of the statement based on the notion that only chassidus is the pnimius of the torah was the issue.

Rebbetzin:

>>Anonymous 6:24 wrote that the Rebbe is the first Rebbe to quote the GR"A.

I don't recall ever bringing up this issue . . .

gevezener ponovizher said...

when i read all those idiots saying that the few words the rebbe said about the CI zt"l are worse then shach's hate iam reminded about antesemites who perpertrated pogroms againts the jews and claimes that jews are the ones that hate the world because of a few lines taken out of context from our texts. the fact is despite those quotes, jews preached good behaviour to all while antisemites preached hate and violence.

Anonymous said...

Ponovizher,

Your comments are made in such bad taste and are so disingenuous. Why do are you trying to cause machlokes?

burech said...

Why so many "anonymouses"
Choose a name.

Anonymous said...

Dov Ber, don't try to disingenuously back out now, like you always do. You wrote: "The level of degradation and abused (sic) I recieved (sic) from Lubavitchers despite my sincerity was beyond anything I would imagine from the worst of goyim--with cruely (sic), malice, and sadism".

The worst of Goyim, eh? Who's that?

You've clearly stated your opinion that we're more degrading and abusive and cruel and malicious and sadistic than Hitler and the Nazis.

Now pick yourself up and go back to Ponovezh where you belong. They say things like that too. They got the idea from their Rosh Yeshiva.

P.S. "I never for once assumed that this was an argument about whether the rebbe knew what was going on in shomayim".

You're not serious!! כל בר בי רב דחד יומא realizes that the Mashpia spoke מסברא, and that the Rebbe came and threw his weight as someone who knows what's happening in שמים behind the Mashpia.

There were many times that the Rebbe would be שולל what a Mashpia would say, and then it was understood that the Rebbe was disagreeing with the Mashpia based on what he knows משמים.

Now go back to Ponovezh, and join the שלוחי הס"מ.

Anonymous said...

Dov Bear
I assume that you probably heard from certain people that the Alter
Rebbe had a different kind of Penimus Hatora, but what should the Rebbe have done that he had a kabola from his father that was one of the great Balei Mekubelim and from his Fil. that penimus hatorah of the Alter Rebbe is only chassidus.
Did you ever see the hagohas of the CI on Reb Chaim Halevi on Rambam, he even criticises the name Riebieni on the shaar blatt,he definitly believed that the whole brisker derech is a waste and its crooked,so we have people disagree on a derech and from time to time in outspoken manner, so whats this all litvish obssesion,

gevezener ponovizher said...

anonymous from 11 54 am - i dont exactly understand why my words are starting machloikes. all i said was that it seems redicolous to rechew the couple of words the rebbe said about CI without using his name and calling him a tzadik etc and comparing it to the years of insightment r schach perpertrated against chabd and rebbe calling him a heretic and saying you cant metsaref chabad to minyan etc. - that reminded me of yidn accused of hating goyim

Hyman said...

Anon.3:46:00 PM said:
"Now go back to Ponovezh, and join the שלוחי הס"מ."
There is one thing that makes me laugh more than watching the rebbe show his true colors and rant about the "samach mem" (in the video with Rabbi Kahana), and that is listening to his programmed robots repeat the same nonsense.....
like the true record playes they are.

Dov said...

>>The worst of Goyim, eh? Who's that?

YOu are still putting words in my mouth. But let me get this straight: are you saying that Arthur did a really bad thing?

>>You're not serious!! כל בר בי רב דחד יומא realizes that the Mashpia spoke מסברא, and that the Rebbe came and threw his weight as someone who knows what's happening in שמים behind the Mashpia.

The Rebbe would have said, "Look, this is what's going on in shomayim." He didn't. He gave s evrah which was quite odd and logically unsound.

>>Did you ever see the hagohas of the CI on Reb Chaim Halevi on Rambam, he even criticises the name Riebieni on the shaar blatt,

I did, and you DEF. did not.

>>
he definitly believed that the whole brisker derech is a waste and its crooked,so we have people disagree on a derech and from time to time in outspoken manner, so whats this all litvish obssesion,

Oy, Oy, oy, is this an ignorant statement! have rachmunus on yourself. This is QUITE bad. He did not think its crooked!

Rebbetzin said...

Anonymous #876

Thanks for pointing out my mistake!! I was actually wondering if it was the גר"א or not and I was hoping it was so I wouldn't look stupid. Oh well!

Arthur said...

Hirshel
I see that the three stooges are still around.Is this ain ledovor sof?
Cut it short already.These three guys are basket cases.Shoin genug.They sound like a broken CD that repeats itself over and over.We might as well be arguing with robots (Which they probably are).

Anonymous said...

Poor Albert!

Arthur said...

"poor albert"
To Quote one of the three stooges "Is that the best you can do"?
In spite of all your animosity torwards Lubavitch, I wish you and yours a freilecher Chanukah and may its lichtelech light up the finstere night of ignorance in which you live and we should all be zoche to beas Hagoel Tzedek bimhairoh.

Anonymous said...

Albert,

I have not demonstrated any animosity toward Lubavitch. You, however, demonstrated the highest level of hatred toward all frum Jews who are not Lubavitchers--and maligned their gadol in the most disgusting of terms.

You know nothing about Chanuka. And the geulah is that much more distant because of the sinas chinam practiced by people like you.

May you be zoche to do teshuva, and learn Torah.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Let's have a look at this comment thread:

Your a hater you rasha

No, you are you sonei yisroel, now answer my question

I'm arguing logicly tipish and you never asked a question you just called names now stop

Your arguing logically? All you do is spew hate and your rosh yeshiva was an antisemite.

I'm spewing hate? answer the question. and your rebbe was a goy.

(Note that no question was ever asked)

Having summarized the thread maybe the litvishe and chassidishe talmidei chachomim here can answer a question for me. Why is the word "ferd" muttar and "jackass" isn't? Does it have to do with a horse being a more choshuve animal?

Anonymous said...

Only a Lubacitcher called someone a ferd (and worse). Look through the thread below.

The Rebbe was never insulted. Not by me, at least.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I know which thread the word ferd was used, but this thread is alive and that one is dead so i posted on this one.

Now answer my question tipish *grins*
*sarcasm*

Anonymous said...

Dov Ber,

You certainly wrote what I quoted. That's sufficient. Do I think Arthur was wrong? No, but 1) you did (hysterically), and 2) I think there is just a eency weency difference between what I am doing to you (m'ken shoin meinen), and what Rav Shach did to the Rebbe and Chabad.

The Rebbe wouldn't say "look, this is what is going on in shamayim", because he didn't talk that way. But if you would have understood what I wrote earlier, the Rebbe was speaking on the assumption that he was accepted as an authority. You didn't understand that, but what that means is that the Rebbe and his Chassidim assume that his words are to be taken as devar Hashem. If you don't consider the Rebbe to be such, then you're simply on the wrong blog. None of your complaints will or could shake the assumption that the Rebbe knows what's going on in Shamayim. You disagree with that assumption? Start a discussion on that.

And now Hyman: a) I'm anonymous 2:23, not 3:46. b) I was just tchepping zich with poor Dov Ber, but I really don't speak that way. I'm also not a robot, and I don't have a shred of hatred for you, Dov Ber, or Rav Shach (although I'm considering it). Regardless of your age, stop being truly spiteful (which you apparently are).

Anonymous said...

>>You certainly wrote what I quoted. That's sufficient. Do I think Arthur was wrong? No, but 1) you did (hysterically), and 2) I think there is just a eency weency difference between what I am doing to you (m'ken shoin meinen), and what Rav Shach did to the Rebbe and Chabad.

I don't think there is a difference. Assuming you look at Rav Shach as the greatest scum, who is not a legitamite Torah authority, your behavior is probably more elevated than his! Besides, the Rebbe looked at non-chassidim as incomplete, he, too, was a bit of a misnaged--just the other way around. I will accept that you are insulted if someone called your Rebbe's teachings kefirah. The fact is that many gedolei yisroel think so. I am sure that hurts you as much as it pains me when I am routinely insulted by Lubavitchers for not subscribing to their belief and thereby am deficient in pnimius and emes. You too have to recognize that even in the eyes of gedolei yisroel like R' Shlomo Zalman, Rav Shach was an ultimate Torah authority. His problems with your Rebbe, then, in his eyes, as well as the eyes of his followers, are not gibberish nor do they flow from spite, but, from the emes of Torah. I would not want to get into a debate about how others like Rav Auerbach feel (its in Rabbi Lorincz's book on the CI, the Brisker Rav and Rav Shach) because I have seen how Chabad feels about him. But if you can assume that I should understand where the Rebbe is coming from, I think you can appreciate how I can tell you to understand where Rav Shach was coming from.

Personally, I don't think the Rebbe was talking as authority as to what is going on in shomayim. Its simply not suggested by his tone. His proof is simple and it only flows from the assumption that his is the only legitamite definition of pnimius Hatorah--a notion which I found exclusive and demeaning. It also runs counter to the teachings of many great gedolei yisroel, including the Gra, who, obviously, did not learn Tanya so that they can plumb the depths of pnimius hatorah (or the Ohr HaChaim who referes to NISTAR as pnimius hatorah before chassidus even came about). I am in good company. I am just shocked the rebbe, who knew of my company better than pretty much anyone else, would have made such a bold declaration.

Moshe Peltz said...

Hate to break it to you, 'Anonymous' anti-semites, but the Rebbe is on record explicitly stating that Chassidus refers to the teachings of "any student of the Baal ShemTov", eg. Meor Einayim -R'Nochum Chernobyler, which he mentioned explicitly. And never did the Rebbe say that 'pnimius hatorah' refers exclusively to Chassidus !!
So to all you insecure and paranoid morons, grow up!! Time for a new straw man...
Pretend to be intellectual, research before you spew your silly drivel.

Anonymous said...

Actually, Moshe Peltz, the exact words were (in a discussion with the Rachumstrivke Rebbe zt'l, 6 teves, 5727:
"Why shouldn't there be a seder-kovua for learning chasidus in a chasidishe yeshiva ? I don't mean specifically tanya or likutei-torah... one can also learn meor-enayim [who also merited being (a student) by the Baal Shem Tov...and why shouldn't a chasidishe bochur know how to one needs to daven".

nahare nahare upashte said...

the fact is that r shach was the only one who called the rebbe a koifer. i have mentioned on a different post ( but no one answers when there is nothing to answer ) how r shloime zalman auerbach wrote about the rebbe ( we can scan this signed letter where he calls the rebbe a melech of the jewish people ), reb moishe who never repeated the tiyle he called the rebbe to anyone in his igres moishe, many tshuves of minchas yitzchok where he relies on the rebbe in pask halocho, the baba sali who considered misnagdim ( real misnagdim not litvishe ) kofrim. all the admoirim ( ger, belz etc ) who came to the rebbe betachlich habitul. the list goes on. i mentioned that r shach who is the only one who was against ( i dont count his cronies ) says that using electric shaver is isur deorayse - so all you snags who shave relying on reb moishe be consistent and dont pick and choose when it suits you. dont ignore all gedoilim in their respect for the rebbe and follow r shach in this when you ignore him in everything that doesnt suit you.
i am sure no one will answer this with anything except incoherent gibberish without addressing the issues themselves

Anonymous said...

>>And never did the Rebbe say that 'pnimius hatorah' refers exclusively to Chassidus !!
So to all you insecure and paranoid morons, grow up!! Time for a new straw man...
Pretend to be intellectual, research before you spew your silly drivel.

So much hatred, so little content. If you loko at the rayah the rebbe provided to support Foyleh Kahan's statement, you will find that the rebbe DID say that only chassidus is the pnimius hatorah.

Nahare,

You made a bunch of statements without any support. Rav Shlomo Zalman was quite clear as to how he regarded Rav Shach. The only letter I am aware of allegedly written by Rav Shlomo Zalman concerning the Rebbe was provided by Rabbi Wolpe, whose many other outlandish statements renderes him not credible. Rav Moshe was quite generous with many of his titles, and he referred to pleny of people as Hagaon. His reverence of Rav Shach, and the reverence all his contemporaries had for Rav Shach is wirtten on record.

This is the first time I heard a lubavitcher claim that baba sali held misnagdim to be kofrim. THe claim is quite outlandish and not supported by anything I have read about him. If you have proof, please provide it.

There were so many gedolei yisroel who were against the rebbe, that to call them mere cronies of rav shach, as opposed to recognizing their genuine individuality on all issues concerning yiddishkeit, suggests you are not really familliar with the issues or are to consumed with hatred to think critically.

Rav Hutner was one of the many gedolei yisroel who had a problem wih the rebbe's messianic proclivities. He was not a misnaged. R' Yoel had problems with the Rebbe and Chabad, too; he was a kadosh, not a misnaged. I happen not to have anything wrong with Chabad in general or the Rebbe in particular, but I remain aghast at the absuive tactics so many on this thread have resorted to as opposed to acknowledging the obvious painful implications of the Rebbe's position: that only chassidus is the pnimius hatorah, and all ehrlich Jews who have not learned it are in serious trouble by extension.

I am unaware of any "questions" you have asked. YOu demonstrated a lot of hatred, showled little knowledge of the facts, and made broad generalties to avoid the single point I have raised.

Moshe Peltz said...

I'd imagine Nahare means that Reb Moshe referred to the LR as "hagaon haTzaddik", certainly NOT a title he used referring to R' Shach or any other RY. While R'Y. Hutner certainly had his own way, the tremendous respect he had for the LR is indisputable. They maintained a semi-steady correspondence throughout the years, and some of RYH's letters to the LR have recently been published. In two separate letters, many years apart, he vigorously denies ever speaking against the rebbe. I hope to provide Tzig here a copy of the later letter, in RYH own handwriting, so he can post it. So now, who should we believe, RYH's own 'ksav yad' and documented history, or oft-regurgitated hearsay?!! Face it, R' Shach was alone in his violent criticism and attacks on Chabad. History does not lie - when you do, you lose all credibility.
Now help me out, please. Can you quote the LR's exact words saying that "only chassidus is pnimius hatorah", and give me a reference to check, or did you make that up too?

Anonymous said...

Hagain Hatzadik is not an unusual appelation for R' Moshe to use. You clearly are not familiar with R' Moshe's teshuvos. Rav Hutner's strong feelings concerning Chabad are well known. You will have to provide the ksav yad for me to believe it.

>>Face it, R' Shach was alone in his violent criticism and attacks on Chabad.

VIOLENT? Besides, Rav Hutner, Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky, the Brisker Rav, the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Ahron Feldman, among many others were very opposes to certani Chabad practices. This is all public knowledge.

>>History does not lie - when you do, you lose all credibility.

Careful; These words will haunt you. You will have to accept history, even if it means that your assertions are incorrect. And they are.

>>Now help me out, please. Can you quote the LR's exact words saying that "only chassidus is pnimius hatorah", and give me a reference to check, or did you make that up too?

Sure, you can find it on this blog! Search it!

Hirshel Tzig said...

I like the R Aron Feldman you threw in there. Soon you'll tell me that the Rosh Yeshivah of Perth Amboy and the 9th grade Rebb in RJJ were also misnagdim to Chabad, right?!

Moshe Peltz said...

Yes, Tzig, this dog is apparently all bark, no bite.
Notice how he can't coherently address a single question. When confronted with the reality about Rav Hutner, all he can do is repeat his lie. When asked about R'Shach's uniquely violent rhetoric, all he does is attempt to avoid the question by mixing in other Rabbonim who, he claims, "among many others were very opposes to certani Chabad practices". Notice how he again fails to address the question, and change the focus. Listing Ahron Feldman with the likes of the Satmar Rov is the least of his stupidity. When he says that
"Hagain Hatzadik is not an unusual appelation for R' Moshe to use. You clearly are not familiar with R' Moshe's teshuvos." he demonstrates his ignorance yet again. Show me please, fool, even three other tshuvos in the Igeros Moshe, where RMF addresses someone as "hagaon hatzaddik". Better yet, show me even two other people he addressed as such ?
And thank you for putting your foolishness on full display.

yankel said...

Look here Dov Ber / aka 'Anonymous' / aka Dov...
Why can't you actually give us concrete quotes from any of these rabbis you claim opposed the lubavicher rebbe?
Hearing you parrot the same names over&over with no proof is getting a bit tired. Unlike you, we don't just 'know' things....(IF you want anybody to take you seriously, that is.)

Arthur said...

This same individual using the pseudonyms listed above, gave me the same run around when I asked to give me the exact quote and source for his allegation that the Rebbe said terrible things about the Chazon Ish.
He also accused the Rebbe of saying that thousands of Torah learning Jews are shluchei Hasoton on the famous video where the inyon of Chabad not sleeping in a Sukkah,was discussed with a Litveshe Rosh Yeshiva.I again challenged him to give me the exact words of the Rebbe to that effect,and again he tried to weasel his way out by telling me to look it up on my own,ask Tzig etc. etc.etc.In addition he called me a liar and how I had besmirched the good name of Rav Shach.I challenged him a number of times in different posts on these two issues only to get the same evasive,non relevant answers.This guy is some piece of work.I'm sure we will yet get other examples of his twisted Orwellian rhetoric.

Anonymous said...

>>I like the R Aron Feldman you threw in there.

Are you writing that Rav Feldman does not take issues with some aspects of Chabad?

>>Notice how he can't coherently address a single question.

That's because no one asked a question. I raised an issue; you ignored it with meaningless rhetoric and hate.

>>When confronted with the reality about Rav Hutner, all he can do is repeat his lie.

I never lied. I only stated that this is not the reality about Rav Hutner. It is somewhat funny that you cannot provide the kzav yad--a necessary you burden you will have to meet in order to support your outlandish claim as to RAv Hutner's feelings concerning CHabad.

>> When asked about R'Shach's uniquely violent rhetoric,

There was nothing violent about it. You are just being silly. And dishonest.

>> all he does is attempt to avoid the question by mixing in other Rabbonim who, he claims, "among many others were very opposes to certani Chabad practices". Notice how he again fails to address the question, and change the focus.

YOu did not ask a question there either, but rather a misrepresentation of fact. The facts is Rav shach was hardly alone.

>>Listing Ahron Feldman with the likes of the Satmar Rov is the least of his stupidity.

STUPIDITY? This is a new one. YOu have to be carefuly with these kind of claims, they tend to tell alot more about the accuser than the accused--Albert being a case in point.

>>When he says that
"Hagain Hatzadik is not an unusual appelation for R' Moshe to use. You clearly are not familiar with R' Moshe's teshuvos." he demonstrates his ignorance yet again. Show me please, fool, even three other tshuvos in the Igeros Moshe, where RMF addresses someone as "hagaon hatzaddik". Better yet, show me even two other people he addressed as such ?

You have never read a single tesuhva of Rav Moshe's. YOu make the ridiculious assertion that no one was every called a Gaon or Tzadik by R' Moshe aside frmo the Rebbe. When I take you to taks for this demonstration of ignorance, all you have to respond with are insults. This debate is clearly beyond you; you simply do not know the facts and are attempting to avoid them with dishonesty and hate.

>>And thank you for putting your foolishness on full display.

Oy vey. This was a bad mistake of yours.

>>Why can't you actually give us concrete quotes from any of these rabbis you claim opposed the lubavicher rebbe?


I see I am dealing with someone who realyl does not not knoe the isssues at all. Instead of just throwing all of them at you, whch you probably lack the scholarship to handle, why not look it up--you can find it on something as common as Wikipedia nowadays!

>>Hearing you parrot the same names over&over with no proof is getting a bit tired.

Parrot? Do you know what you are writing?

>>Unlike you, we don't just 'know' things....(IF you want anybody to take you seriously, that is.)

I offered you a source, now look it up.

>>This same individual using the pseudonyms listed above, gave me the same run around when I asked to give me the exact quote and source for his allegation that the Rebbe said terrible things about the Chazon Ish.

Its not like there is a single Lubavitch chussid who does not know what I am takling about. Albert, because he hates everyone outside of Chabad--as is demonstrated by his hateful talk about me and about a gadol of the last generation--would rather stick his head in the sand than see a statement which he can easily verify on this blog. That's right--its right here. . .

Somehow, he thinks he can convince people into thinking that I am avoiding the issue swhen in reality he knows this happened and would not want to own up to the exclusion it represents.

>>He also accused the Rebbe of saying that thousands of Torah learning Jews are shluchei Hasoton on the famous video where the inyon of Chabad not sleeping in a Sukkah,was discussed with a Litveshe Rosh Yeshiva.I again challenged him to give me the exact words of the Rebbe to that effect,and again he tried to weasel his way out by telling me to look it up on my own,ask Tzig etc. etc.etc.

But we all know what he said. So do you. The fact that you are trying to debate at that level demonstrated the little interest you actually have in the truth. This is reality. Your ridiculous attempts to cop out of it are quite silly and only compound the image of dishonesty you have portrayed throughout.

>>In addition he called me a liar and how I had besmirched the good name of Rav Shach.I challenged him a number of times in different posts on these two issues only to get the same evasive,non relevant answers.

YOu did besmirch Rav Shach by calling him worse than Hitler. Any frum Jew in the world would agree with that. And you ARE dihonest. The fact that you are trying to play games by refusing to look up these two issues--both of which are on this blog--only proves how dishonest you are.

>>This guy is some piece of work.I'm sure we will yet get other examples of his twisted Orwellian rhetoric.

The only things twisted here is your deceit and whatever is left of your soul. Trying to cop out of this with your sordid dishonesty is reprehensible.

Arthur said...

Nu, what did I say.He's back in all his glory using the same idiotic script he used on all his previous rants.Never to the point.
All accusations.His mantra that no one asked him any questions.We can all look it up ourselves.We already know the answers.
He must be running his posts through a duplicating machine.They all sound exactly the same.Of course he thinks that by using upper case letters he really brings across his,yawn,"proclamations" with greater emphasis.This guy is obviously some sort of idiot but I think we are bigger idiots trying to have some sort of sensical dialogue with this fruit cake.You can't change the stripes of a Zebra. Or is it a ferd.
Stay tuned to the next "episode"
in this exhilarating (fill in as many yawns as you see fit)saga.

Anonymous said...

The extent to which you lack self -awareness is truly astounding. This, unfortunately, is the product of hate and ignorance.

Your post was all about you. And the insults and evasive tactices cannot be more childish.

What a sad, empty life you live.

Arthur said...

And you are a ferd that has imbibed much to much ExLax and out comes.......Why don't you get lost.
Go back to your barn.You stink up this blog, Ferd.
The extent to which you lack self -awareness is truly astounding. This, unfortunately, is the product of hate and ignorance.

Arthur said...

Hershel
Maybe we can make an appeal to send this guy a couple of gallons of Kaopectate or a ton of Prozac or both.

Arthur said...

Tzig
Are you going to allow this ferd to have the last word? Sure it's time to cut off his rants but not with him having last licks.

Hirshel Tzig said...

whatever, it doesn't really matter who gets last licks HERE. It's who gets them in general that matters, and even then last licks is no guarantee of winning the battle....

Anonymous said...

>>And you are a ferd that has imbibed much to much ExLax and out comes.......Why don't you get lost.
Go back to your barn.You stink up this blog, Ferd.
The extent to which you lack self -awareness is truly astounding. This, unfortunately, is the product of hate and ignorance.

Its amazing that all you know is hate and nasty comments. You are so full of hate and ignorance. May you be zoche to learn, know, and become a Jew.

Anonymous said...

Hirschel,

I am not about "last licks." I care only about the emes. I am eager to see the letters. I will then compare them with what I have read in books and we will develop an accurate picture together with you.