Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Response to "Burech" VeSayato


From Here

A Guest Post - Received via e-mail:

[EDITED FOR BREVITY, CLARITY AND CONTENT
]

Dear Hirshel,

As a reader of your blog for some time, I’ve learned a lot about different types of people, though I cannot honestly claim to understand all of them. There is a particular type of guttersnipe your blog seems to attract whom, while interesting as a psychologically dysfunctional curiosity, is quite vile when masquerading as a ben-teyreh. It is to one of the latest example of same, posting with the moniker ‘Burech,’ that I would like to address a few comments. Hopefully your readership will find this entertaining, if not educational to some degree. After opening with what seemed like a reasonable question regarding the Lubavitch custom to generally avoid delivering a hesped, ‘Burech’ quickly showed his stripes with a series of juvenile insults and accusations. What seems to be bothering this imbecile are the facts that Lubavitch are generally respected as representing a branch of Torah / Yiddishkeit, as well as his inferiority complex, pathological jealousy, and plain old vicious nature. Of-course, like any good anti-Semite, ‘burech’ has a very convenient peg to hang his ignorant slander on, in this case his ‘problem’ being why Lubavitch doesn’t make a hesped…. Since ‘Burech’ is likely born of a Jewish mother, in which case we are commanded to love him, let’s help him get some sleep tonight by addressing some of his burning questions. There are medical treatments available for some of your other problems ‘Burech’, but I wouldn’t waste a prescription on you (mamesh baal tashchis), so this will have to do:


1. You need to hit the books in a big way. Perhaps you were prevented from attending yeshiva full time, or maybe you’re just as naturally unintelligent as you sound…- either way, you need to learn to read Hebrew post haste. The sources for the minhag in many kehillos not to be maspid are the easiest things to find, had you bothered opening a Shulchan Aruch. While I wouldn’t expect you to have ever heard of the Reishis Chochma, much less be familiar with his stringent warning regarding hespedim, you might have known both the reason for this minhag, as well as the fact that many communities other than Lubavitch follow it. You might practice keeping quiet about things you know nothing about, and while this would mean your being silent most of the day, you’d also save yourself considerable embarrassment.

2. If you can’t learn a sefer in the Hebrew original, I suggest you go to a library and try reading books in English. There’s a whole world outside Chelm that you obviously know nothing about, not to mention your astounding ignorance of Lubavitch (and likely most other) practice and history. This will be news to you, ‘Burechel’, but over 80% of all Lubavitcher customs are based on chumros in halochoh. That’s right, not al-pi-kabolo, derech hasod, or anything else, simply being choshesh le’daas hamachmirim. If you’d bothered learning the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, not to mention studying his siddur, this would all be very obvious, but you prefer hurling slanderous accusations to real information – what a surprise !!

3. You then, shamelessly (“shoteh aino margish…”) claim that;“What riled me was the Tzig (and this as an example of most Lubavitchers)had never,ever asked himself why Lubavitch sought to be "kliger" than the whole world.”. You mean smarter than you ?! What is immediately obvious to anybody reading your ignorant rants, is what it is about Lubavitch that really bothers you. What bothers you about Lubavitch is exactly the same as what has bothered generations of anti-Semites about Jews in general, i.e, “…”Why are you different – why can’t you be like us – Why do you think you’re better ?!” Well Burech, the answer in this case goes something like this. Lubavitch as a chassidus (and as a movement) is about doing things. No, not just things like visiting a few kvoorim once a year…. Lubavitch is about learning chassidus, teaching, reaching, building, understanding, changing….. you see Burech, Lubavitch is about achieving, so of-course you hate them. Their very existence showcases your failure. But is that their fault ? Your inferiority complex is not their fault. Does it bother you that Lubavitch has sources in Torah for their minhagim, and are honest about their reasoning, is that too much for you to handle? you can’t debate them in learning so you throw stones? Whatever’s eating at your kishkes about Lubavitch and their Rebbe would pale in comparison to other Chassidisen, in comparison to what’s written about the tzaddikim R’ Mendel Rimanover, the Noam Elimelech, or the Yismach Moshe – but a fool such as yourself wouldn’t know that, would you now?

4. Which brings me to another point. I recommend you apply for a refund to whichever yeshiva was lucky enough to steal your parents' tuition dollars. You see, the typical frumme-yid entrusts his children to a yeshiva to be schooled in ‘derech hamishneh ve’hagemoro’ with all the typically attendant benefits of this type of education. Not to mention our mesorah. You obviously got none of this. Did you attend a real yeshiva, or a jihad-factory? You run around ignorantly criticizing others in your elitist hate fest, but you don’t seem to realize what you sound like. Kach hi darko shel torah?!! Which ‘derech’ is this ? Not the derech of Hillel, nor that of R’Akiva ….. How dare you pervert Torah to justify your ignorant attacks? “Boshni mi’divreichem beis Shammai……v’hushcheru shinov mipnei hatzomos” (Chagiga22b). Or is R’ Yehoshua not good enough either. You claim the right to criticize Lubavitch based on your ignorance, yet you ignore the glaring distinction between how they learn Torah, and how you sputter hate. Open any sefer published by Lubavitch, (there are many hundreds of them) and you will notice the voluminous marei-mekomos. Yes ‘Burech’, mekoros, so one can see how the author arrived at his conclusion. That doesn’t mean that you must necessarily agree, but this is darko shel Torah – demonstrating ‘mino hani milli deomar kroh’. Contrast this with the fatwas banning other shittos / groups / derochim that have become a staple of the jihad-factories you attended, and the difference is clear. You don’t like somebody else’s minhag? - fine. But that doesn’t make it wrong. If you have a legitimate problem with it, naysi sefer venechezeh!

5. If you can’t manage any of the above, that’s ok, ‘Burechel’, there’s an easier way that might even work for you…. Go buy a plane ticket, leave the ghetto for a few days, and pretend you’re a decent human being. Stop into a Chabad House somewhere, and see the enemy up-close. What you’ll typically find is a nice guy. He’ll invite you for a free meal, yes- he’ll feed you for free – probably while realizing what aמ ingrate you actually are. You might also hear him give a shiur or two, and realize that he’s a שטיקל talmid-chochom as well. Maybe, just maybe, in spite of all the hate and brainwashing that are your staples, you’ll see the average Lubavitcher for what he likely is – hardworking, dedicated, learned, and happily devoting his life to helping other yidden. Yes, ‘Burech’, even yidden who love to hate, yidden like you!

6. Finally, to address what’s really bothering you, I recommend you take a look at the definition of a ‘machlokes leshem shomayim’ as given by the Meiri on Avos 5:19. You will then understand why Lubavitch keeps growing in Torah, operational success, and stature, while those institutions whose main exports seem to be pseudo-lomdus and jihad, are falling apart and imploding. ‘Sof ganev litliyeh’, and ‘derochim’ that thrive primarily on hate and criticism, will not last very long.

Try it, ‘Burech’, and you might surprise yourself. It’s not a mitzvah to remain in such misery. There’s a whole new world waiting for you to discover – the world of ‘Eili v’eilu divrei....’, limud haTorah, and Ahavas Yisroel!

173 comments:

The Bray of Fundie said...

OUCHHHH!

a fine example of the snark arts!

Kepel said...

I can not for the life of me understand what lifeless looser, would spend time to write this long letter, (and which dork would post it) to a kid that is probably under Bar Mitzva.

m.mandel said...

Maybe he wasn't just writing to the 'burech' loser, but was making some valid points for all those type of losers....and there are many !

n said...

kudos! that was fun and right on!

Anonymous said...

I recall the tone of the post. Was this written by hmmmm? Its so full of hate and hypocricy (not that some of his points are wrong) that it must be him . . .

Anonymous said...

who are those in the picture (aside from the rebbe) atop this long rant?

Anonymous said...

Divrie Pi Chochom Chein..

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

I'm glad somebody has enough spare time to write everything that's wrong with baruch and his ilk.

yankel said...

Who is hmmmm ?
Where do you see the hypocrisy ? I thought his points were mostly spot on, although he is a bit tough on poor Burech. Sounds like he just wants a fair debate of the issues instead of firebombing, nothing wrong wit that.

Wishful Thinking said...

"""You will then understand why Lubavitch keeps growing in Torah, operational success, and stature, while those institutions whose main exports seem to be pseudo-lomdus and jihad, are falling apart and imploding. ‘Sof ganev litliyeh’, and ‘derochim’ that thrive primarily on hate and criticism, will not last very long.""""
Wishful Thinking

burech said...

"I see that the Tzig is a total am

ho'oretz and I will somehow have to defend this mistaken "minhag"
The gemora in Sanhedrin says that a meis shloi nispad or was dragged away by wild animals, siman yoffeh lemeis.Rashi explains that it's a good sign for the meis that he is punished, i.e by not having a hespeid, in this world and having atonement through this.
Also in another gemorah it's related that one may not exagerrate to much about the niftar because it is bad for the niftar and maspid (probably the same idea that the niftar gets some sechar in this world rather than yenner velt)
But again, it shows that the Lubavitcher percieve themselves as smarter, ehrlicher than the whole world that knows about these gemaras just as well

Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:50:00" PM
-------------------------------I
I myself posted the above, before any of the Lubavitchers hit their text books.I was turned off at the Tzig and the general Lubavitch attitude towards, accepted Jewish custom, without any interest in knowing the basic halo0cha and why different groups would differ from the basic halocha.

A lot of Lubavitch posters have claimed that no hesped is universal, this is totally not true.Fact is that no other group that I know of has made a wholesale disclaimer to this talmudical minhag.Some people request no hesped.
The bottom line is that if someone is brought up in a totally Lubavitch enviroment they would not even know the following things.
*There is a chiyuv to sleep in the sukkah.Not sleeping is a heter.
*There is an issur to eat anything before davening in the morning.Eating before davening is a heter for the weak, not a wholesale heter for everybody, especially in light of the fact that anybody davening at 10 in the morning would be hungry.
*There is a chiyuv to be maspid a niftor.The wholesale dismissal of this chiyuv is very questionable.

*One need not write that the chuppa will take place "besho hachamishis" on a wedding invitation.Especially if it will take place at a different hour.

Lastly the author of this rant complains about attacks on Lubavitch while doing the exact same about other kehillos.
Tol koiro mbein eynecho

shloime miller said...

You're not looking very good here, Boorechel. Don't you know that we don't pasken from gemoros, rather from the Shulchan-Oruch. And if you'd even bothered looking in the SA hilchos tefilla, you'd see that you're simply wrong. The major poskim are very clear about the permissibility of eating before davening if it will help one concentrate (see Rambam, hil. tfillo 5:2, SA & SA harav o"c 89 (3)/5, & the Tzemach Tzedek in his piskei dinim). And there is no Lubavitch 'minhag' to specifically eat/drink before davening - your slander notwithstanding. Likewise your ignorance of what the SA says about sleeping in a sukkah, and the rest of your ignorant tripe. As for your stupid carping about the hesped, do you really think the Reishis Chochma & the poskim who wrote in a similar vein were not aware of the din ?!
Take the advice here, Boorech, and get an education.
Oh, and stop making things up.

chaimshmeel said...

Funny I didn't notice this guy attacking other kehillos, only explaining why your attacks were so sick. Time for a new line, burech. Maybe something like lubavich mixing blood in their matzos...? You probably believe that too.

Arthur said...

I would say that he is not referring to all other kehillos only the ones that spawn the likes of you.

Moshe Peltz said...

Burech,

It's looking more and more like the only am hooretz here is you. Take the guys advice and go learn some halooche before you criticize. And nobody here said the custom not to be maspid is universal, only that other groups have this custom as well. By lying so much you only dig a deeper hole than you seem to have crawled out of.

Moshe Peltz

Avi said...

Kudos to the anonymous poster for bringing out some very good points. Although I disagree with parts of what you said, it was nevertheless refreshing to hear a sensible and well articulated argument and point of view. Hirshel, for the sake of this blog, please have the “boruch’s” regurgitate their dribble elsewhere, it is not appreciated by anybody that enjoys a mature conversation .

Hirshel Tzig said...

then again, were it not for his dribble we'd never hear the response...

Hyman said...

"You might also hear him give a shiur or two, and realize that he’s a שטיקל talmid-chochom as well."
Lets not get carried away, I know many shluchim, not even one of them is close to the 9th grade level of mainstrem yeshiva boys.

Free latkes, yes. Talmid Chacham, in your dreams.

Anonymous said...

"burech said...

"I see that the Tzig is a total am ho'oretz "
"There is an issur to eat anything before davening in the morning.Eating before davening is a heter for the weak, not a wholesale heter for everybody, especially in light of the fact that anybody davening at 10 in the morning would be hungry."
-----------------------------------
The halacha is:
וכן הצמא והרעב, הרי הן בכלל חולים--אם יש בו יכולת לכוון את דעתו, יתפלל; ואם לאו, אל יתפלל עד שיאכל וישתה.

Sooooo, we have a machlokes between the 'shlosho amudei hahorooh' and little slimy Burech!!
After Burech finishes learning hilchos ahavas yisrool, hilchos shmiras haloshon, and hilchos treifos, I'm sure he'll get back to us on hilchos tfille.

Hyman said...

"You will then understand why Lubavitch keeps growing in Torah, operational success, and stature, while those institutions whose main exports seem to be pseudo-lomdus and jihad, are falling apart and imploding. ‘Sof ganev litliyeh’, and ‘derochim’ that thrive primarily on hate and criticism, will not last very long."

Yeh, and my four year old thinks hes a fireman.

Are you kidding me?!
Did you ever look in the mirror? Chabad has been off the map for 20 years now. Rav Schach Shechted them years ago.
Lubavitch is the butt of all jokes in ALL frum kehilos.
The letvish communty is poping by its seems. Lakewood, Bnei Brak, Kiryat Sefer. Do you have any idea how fast these communties are growing? "Will not last very long"? Dude what are you smoking? These yeshivos and communties are thriving beyond anyone wildest dreams, and you with your head wrapped up in a mashiach bumper sticker, cant see past your "kiruv/ ahavas Yisroel" (-ahavas yisroel my foot) filled brain.
This letter is so Shvach, my little 14 year old brother can destroy this purim shpeil piece by piece with one hand behind his back.

Hyman said...

BTW. I can guarentee this kid burich has not had this much attention since his bar mitzva (which was last year).
You wanna pick on someone, pick on someone your own size.
The stupidy of this letter to burich, shows how much "learning" the auther has done in his mivtzaim filled "yeshiva" days.

Ah Bochur said...

Hirshel wrote: "were it not for his dribble we'd never hear the response..."

then again, Hirshel, were it not for his comments we'd never need a response...

You've lowered the bar of acceptable comments to such a degree that things that were long obvious to everyone sane, now merit a lengthy treatment in a blog post.

Please stop lowering our standards. At the very least, conduct a poll among the sane on whether they appreciate the "opportunity" to have to author "responses".

I for one would rather spend my time reading fine posts instead of feeling compelled to explain simple and basic concepts in the face of a violent assault, lest someone be taken by the repetition of denigrative drivel in face of "merely" shocked silence.

Anonymous said...

Very well written, thank you tzig for posting it, please keep them coming.

UD said...

Tzig, it's already been said but seems that this Burech really struck a chord here; for an anonymous child it's quite an achievement to get this frontpage / headline / whatever you call this kind of defensive knee-jerk attention. And whoever wrote this doesn't really shine with intelligence himself, obviously, so they're kind of square.

What's the point of regurgitating same old ta'anes and same old terytzim over and over ? Can't you people (either side) come up with something new for a change ? geez ...

P. S. Tzig - you may want to remove the "Edited for brevity ..." label, for obvious reasons.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Natchalnik

show up here more often and maybe I'll care what you think. Like this it's tough to worry about losing your once monthly (and before that once in six months) comment.

Anonymous said...

Hyman

thriving? do you mean reproducing like ants? then yes. Thriving, no, my friend, no. The only thing bursting at the seams is crises. Money crises. Shidduch crises. At-risk youth crises.

Moshe Peltz said...

Hyman baby, you sound like you didn't get treated too nicely in Torah Temima.....or was it Ner ?
Now tell us how your abuse was Chabads fault too ? Grow up and open your eyes, fool. Why don't you answer his points, IF you have any answers that is. R'Schach didn't exactly get much done in his lifetime, and his memory fades as Ponovezh falls apart. Whats the heter for turning off the lights Friday night....kovod hateyre ?! Now tell us how the chilul-shabbos in Ponovezh is Lubavitch's fault.
Oh, and here's a little reality check; 99.9% of the 13mm odd Jews on the planet have never even heard of R' Schach, let alone give a hoot about his ahavas-yisroel. I know you're nebech just an abused brainwashed little automaton, but try and keep your shtussim believable, for the sake of kovod hateyreh.

Hyman said...

Anon.10:59:00 PM so brilliantly asked, "Hyman
thriving? do you mean reproducing like ants?"

The answer Anon is: Yes, thriving. And no, not like ants. Thats how Paroh felt about the Jews in Egypt, and Hitler too. And I understand your feelings towards other Jews is obviously very much the same as theirs. Which by the way is not new to me. In fact, those that feel like that are often "Ahavas Yisroel" ranting, mashiach obssesing, people of another religion (-forgot what its called).
What I meant by "thriving" is something you and the rest of your hung-over budies will never understand. These communities here in the U.S., and those abroad are thriving in (yes, in numbers, and more importantly) in things like Torah, Avodah, Yiras Shamayim. [Since these things dont involve activities such as giving out candles to little girls on friday, I suspect you will have little idea what they are].

Anonymous said...

Hymie, baby

Muslims thrive too. Numbers means squat. Pull your head out of the sand and maybe you'll see that the thriving you see is part rash, part growth. Whatever growth there is today is overshadowed by the real problems those communities you speak of face every day.

tell me of the growth, rather, tell me of the accomplishments. And not just numbers.

By the way, we Lubabs drink vodka with our cheerios. And we marry our sisters too.

Ferd Einer!

UD said...

Dude, last time I showed up people lined up to show me the exit. And mind you, why would you even think about worrying about losing my annual contribution ?

Back to business - do you think that if Burech explained himself in a nicer way, talking subtly and using fancy language - you'd then agree with some of his "points" ?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Khaver

Burech had basically one point, that whatever Lubavitch does is wrong if others don't do it that way. There is no respectful way of getting that point across.

He comes here LeKanter.

As far as you're concerned; I don't remember you being "shown the exit," unless you made some explosive statement. We're quite welcoming and tolerant here.

Hyman said...

Boy it looks like some lubes-jobs are really taking my comments hard here tonight. This is fun. look how the blood boils. Torah Temima seems to be the heavy artillery.
Then you got the guy who's so proud that Shlita is on TV so much more than Rav Schach, and so many frei jews know aboute him more than Rav Schach.
Actualy that might explain why so many FRUM jews have the "wrong" impression of the Shlita. Cus they dont have TV! Now I understand.
Then you have the guy that married his sister and ate cheerios.(amazing!)
one guy asked for "accomplishments".
And thats a valid question. Since in his brilliant opinion Torah, Avoda, Yiras Shamayim and Gemilus Chasadim are not considerd "accomplishmnets". Then if those are not "accomplishments", the answer is: nothing.
HT, I feel like Im back in 10th grade with these guys. Its actualy fun!

Anonymous said...

I see you're having trouble naming specific accomplishments.

Maybe with time you'll come up with something?

I'll be here all week....

Hyman said...

Anon.12:55:00 AM
I think those "Accomplishments" are VERY Specific.
It just occured to me that maybe you dont understand hebrew. Oh, Im sorry.

Tzig, Im really trying to also make front page here.
Why does Burech Get the special treatmant?

gevezener ponevezher said...

Burechel - if you open up the nitei gavriel hilchos aveilus volume I page 267 you will see how many kehiloys kedoyshes have a minhag sheyesodosoy beharerey koydesh not to be maspid - ledugmo ruzhin, tchernobyl, vizhnitz and gur. by the way nitey gavriel who can lear almost as well as boruchel places chashivus to minhogey chabad in every single book that he wrote. if you would learn basich seforim like darkei chaim vesholom you would see the mokor of many chabad minhogim.
burichl - just do tshuve, say you were wrong and der oybershter vet zicher moichel zayn.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Lets not get carried away, I know many shluchim, not even one of them is close to the 9th grade level of mainstrem yeshiva boys.

This sentence is a load of hogwash and I'm trying to be polite here. The average "mainstrem" (sic) yishiver is dedicated to the production of עם הארצים. Anyone who knows a passuk chumash is an apikores. Anyone who wants to work for a living is a minuval. Anyone who says the word Moshiach --let alone actually believe in עיקר י"ב is a Lubo-Christian. I speak from experience on all three counts. Both their Torah and Avodah should be spelled with aleph's instead of heh's and as for gmilas chassadim, how many kolleleit vs. working people are in chaveirim? It's a minuvaldike zach. Of course a Lubavitcher wouldn't rant like that because he's filled with the ahavas yisrael Hymen despises so much, it takes a disaffected litvak like me.

Anonymous said...

Okay Hirshel I have an issue with you. The reason that I, and many like me, follow your blog when there are many 'b'teilim harbeh' with which to waste time is because you mix good points with good gossip and interesting exchange of views mixed in.

This guest post totally ruined what you have been doing. It is snarky, mean, and immature, using every single 'half-sharp' line that the writer has heard from first grade on. It is embarassing.

To his actual points' baloney. I am acquianted with many shluchim and they are sweet and sincere, but for the most part, pathetic amei ha'aretz. You cannot become a talmid chacham on a diet of chassidus and alte rebbe's shulchan aruch. You need to do it the old-fashioned way, as practiced in Yeshivos.

So sorry loser guest post man, you just served to look vicious and silly.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

"You need to do it the old-fashioned way, as practiced in Yeshivos."
I agree that some shluchim could use a little more אורח חיים (OK a LOT more) to go with their Yoreh Deah, gemara, and chassidus. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's just the ones I know. Maybe they studied to hard for the smicha farher? But the yeshiva way isn't the answer as it produces bigger amei ha'aretz for the most part. Also, I find it funny how the litvak commenters make fun of the chabad cheilim and the lubavitchers make fun of the same litvisher cheilim. (That would be cho-LAHM to the MO's who are zicher reshaim.)

Yossi said...

>>Where do you see the hypocrisy ? I thought his points were mostly spot on, although he is a bit tough on poor Burech. Sounds like he just wants a fair debate of the issues instead of firebombing, nothing wrong wit that

The hypocrisy is calling for shalom but acting in the most deliberately mean, insulting, vicious and degrading manner possible. This man would quote Chazal after Chazal about the value of derech eretz, but only do so to make the other individual look awful. To see the words of Torah be manipulated to savor the satisfaction of hurting another yid is the ultimate hypocrisy. Tzig, I cannot believe you allow such a low human being to be given any "air time", let alone a post. I echo the opinion of others when I write that the poster embaressed himself, and demosntrated that Chabadskers are more than competent in the hate department.

Hirshel Tzig said...

People

It CANNOT be hateful since it's a response. He RESPONDED to a hateful diatribe about how a minhag chassidim is היפך ההלכה, and full of גאוה, so he was responded to.

Dov Ber said...

>>This sentence is a load of hogwash and I'm trying to be polite here. The average "mainstrem" (sic) yishiver is dedicated to the production of עם הארצים.

There is not a single yeshiva outside chabad dedicated to the production of ignoramouses.

>>Anyone who knows a passuk chumash is an apikores.


This is untrue, obviously.

>>Anyone who wants to work for a living is a minuval.

Also untrue.

>>Anyone who says the word Moshiach --let alone actually believe in עיקר י"ב is a Lubo-Christian.

Untrue.

>>I speak from experience on all three counts.

You have lost all credibility given your intentional misrepresentations above.

>>Both their Torah and Avodah should be spelled with aleph's instead of heh's and as for gmilas chassadim, how many kolleleit vs. working people are in chaveirim?

They do a lot more chessed than the entire Chabad will ever do.

>>It's a minuvaldike zach.

Your lack of conscience, that is.

Anonymous said...

>>, יתפלל; ואם לאו, אל יתפלל עד שיאכל וישתה.

Sooooo, we have a machlokes between the 'shlosho amudei hahorooh' and little slimy Burech!!

This is really, really igrnorant: Who is so sick every day that he has to eat? MORON!!!

Yossi said...

>>It CANNOT be hateful since it's a response. He RESPONDED to a hateful diatribe about how a minhag chassidim is היפך ההלכה, and full of גאוה, so he was responded to.

Its not a response, its just reaks of gaave, hatred and demonstrates the complete lack of interest in derech eretz. Lets take out the halachas and parse it out. I happen to think Burech is not off the mark at all.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I happen to think Burech is not off the mark at all.

That would explain why you're so offended.

Anonymous said...

>>Oh, and here's a little reality check; 99.9% of the 13mm odd Jews on the planet have never even heard of R' Schach, let alone give a hoot about his ahavas-yisroel. I know you're nebech just an abused brainwashed little automaton, but try and keep your shtussim believable, for the sake of kovod hateyreh.

The Lubavitch haters will have to come to a consensus as to whether numbers matter.

Anonymous said...

>>That would explain why you're so offended.

I cannot type in hebrew. Can someone type out the relevant section in SA so that we can demonstrate what the Mechaber says? Hirsch, this is not about personal feelings. I think he is right based on my knoweldge of halacha.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

DovBer: For your first comment all I will do is quote a rebbi I had in mesivta. this rebbi actively discouraged me from being frum to the point that I almost listened. He said (claiming to quote R' Yisroel Salanter) "Min darf nisht lernen. Min darf zitzen." Followed by a shmues about how the purpose of yeshiva is to keep us off the street and "the learning is secondary."
For the rest, all you do is state the opposite of what I said without support. If you went to a black hat yeshiva you know full well that every single one of the attitudes I described is in full force there. I won't bother telling stories because I don't need you to accuse me of lying again, but I still can't fathom how black hatters come to such a hatred of the idea of ahavas yisrael.

They do a lot more chessed than the entire Chabad will ever do.

YOu counted? Besides as I said, chaveirim and hatzala are both populated by working people, not the kolleleit who consider the working people who support them minuvalim that they are doing a toiva by taking their money.

Dov Ber said...

>>For your first comment all I will do is quote a rebbi I had in mesivta. this rebbi actively discouraged me from being frum to the point that I almost listened. He said (claiming to quote R' Yisroel Salanter) "Min darf nisht lernen. Min darf zitzen." Followed by a shmues about how the purpose of yeshiva is to keep us off the street and "the learning is secondary."

I have attended "black hat" yeshivos my entire lift. I have only heard the exact opposite from my rabbeim and the rabbeim of my chaverim. This seems to be consistent with the general credibility of your comments.

>>For the rest, all you do is state the opposite of what I said without support. If you went to a black hat yeshiva you know full well that every single one of the attitudes I described is in full force there.

This is what I was writing about. Their attitude is the exact opposite of that which you have described.

>>I won't bother telling stories because I don't need you to accuse me of lying again, but I still can't fathom how black hatters come to such a hatred of the idea of ahavas yisrael.

The only hatred I have encountered was from Lubavitchers, including their Rebbe. That's it. I have only learned about and witnessed ahavas yisroel from everyone else.

>>YOu counted?

Have you?

>>Besides as I said, chaveirim and hatzala are both populated by working people, not the kolleleit who consider the working people who support them minuvalim that they are doing a toiva by taking their money.

This is possible. But shevet levi was never involved in chaverim or hatzala. Ever. We all have different natures and different roles. Some learn for the klal, others heal, other do the lawyering, etc. The only purpose of your complaint here is to denigrate those who genuniely learn. You despise them because YOU don't have ahavas yisroel.

m.mandel said...

OK, Dov Bear, Hyman, Burech, and all you other pre-programmed automatons. Your comments here only prove the point of the original post(er), namely that you people love to hate Chabad & anyone that's not 'you', that you recklessly accuse them of c"v abrogating halacha, and that you hate them so blindly, that if they help an old lady cross the street - you'll say she didn't want to go. You obviously lack the ability to debate al-pi-torah, which is why you resort to invoking R'Shach. The problem is, that anybody who's ever gone through Michtavim uMaamarim of R'Shach has seen a painfully repetitive pattern..... hate+criticism+more hate+more criticism, etc, but they haven't seen building, positive suggestions, torahdike advice, and this is why your post here are so foolish. Wake up guys, THIS IS NOT TORAH. The gemoros that the original poster quoter were 100% relevant, as they proved what he was saying. All R'Shach managed was to inspire a new generation of ignorant haters. How funny is that- the man who spent his last 25 years lobbing unsubstantiated criticism (that means without mekoros in torah or halocho) at R' Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Steinsaltz, Rav Yehuda Levi, Rav Ovadya Yosef, and various other geonim, ALL OF WHOSE stature in lomdus outstrips his own by far. Unfortunately, R'Shach never chose to debate the issue with sources in Torah, only to attack the other person / opinion, just like his silly followers posting here.
So yes guys, thanks for proving the point :-)

Benny Hill said...

Hyman, your English is as bad as the content of your silly ravings. Please use a spell-checker, and try to sound coherent. Oh, and perhaps address the issue at hand like a mature adult?

Anonymous said...

"gevezener ponevezher said...

Burechel - if you open up the nitei gavriel hilchos aveilus volume I page 267 you will see how many kehiloys kedoyshes have a minhag sheyesodosoy beharerey koydesh not to be maspid - ledugmo ruzhin, tchernobyl, vizhnitz and gur. by the way nitey gavriel who can lear almost as well as boruchel places chashivus to minhogey chabad in every single book that he wrote. if you would learn basich seforim like darkei chaim vesholom you would see the mokor of many chabad minhogim."
------------------------------
Of course he doesn't know the sources in the Nittei Gavriel. These people don't come to debate, only to hate. Same for the idiot trying to twist a simple halacha I quoted before:
"וכן הצמא והרעב, הרי הן בכלל חולים--אם יש בו יכולת לכוון את דעתו, יתפלל; ואם לאו, אל יתפלל עד שיאכל וישתה."
Get it? That means that if YOU feel hungry before davening, TORAH says to eat. Yes boys, the same Torah that says "Veahavta l'reiacha kamocha". Hate away boys, but please stop blaming your hate on Torah, your lies are showing.

Dov Bear said...

Okay. I admit I was wrong on some of my points.

Dov Ber said...

>>OK, Dov Bear, Hyman, Burech, and all you other pre-programmed automatons.

Pre-programmed? If you can write so thoughtlessly in connection with my remarks, you demonstrate that you are the pre-programmed automaton!

>>Your comments here only prove the point of the original post(er), namely that you people love to hate Chabad & anyone that's not 'you', that you recklessly accuse them of c"v abrogating halacha, and that you hate them so blindly, that if they help an old lady cross the street - you'll say she didn't want to go.

No, my comment was that the poster demonstrated hatred of such a profound level, that he does not realize his own hypocrisy. I did not suggest anything else. You, like the poster, demonstrate so much hatred that you cannot even think--you just write with confrontational language, without any factual support, and lambast anyone those who do not subscribe to your narrow views.

>>You obviously lack the ability to debate al-pi-torah, which is why you resort to invoking R'Shach.

I don't know who you are writing about. I am willing to debate only al pi Torah.

>>The problem is, that anybody who's ever gone through Michtavim uMaamarim of R'Shach has seen a painfully repetitive pattern.....

Are you making the representation that you went through EVERY SINGLE PIECE?!?! It is clear from below that you have never read a single full piece!!!

>>hate+criticism+more hate+more criticism, etc, but they haven't seen building, positive suggestions, torahdike advice, and this is why your post here are so foolish.

Clearly, you have never read what he wrote!

>>Wake up guys, THIS IS NOT TORAH.

No, this is an alternative universe, where individuals can mix into a debate, invent fact, create an argument, and then paste a pre-programmed retort about a non-issue.

>>The gemoros that the original poster quoter were 100% relevant, as they proved what he was saying.

??

>>All R'Shach managed was to inspire a new generation of ignorant haters.

This is completely untrue and out of line. One can suggest the same thing about the rebbe, given the enormous hatred demonstrated by someone here. But that's not what is going on. You have quoted a set of seforim you have never touched and made empty, unsupported accusations. You are the hater.

>>How funny is that- the man who spent his last 25 years lobbing unsubstantiated criticism (that means without mekoros in torah or halocho) at R' Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik

You never read the maamar. Not only did he make his argument al pi Torah, but a fair amount of great talmidei chachomim agreed,

>>the Lubavitcher Rebbe

Rav Shlomo Miller, Rav Ahrom Feldman, Rav Ahrom Kotler, the Brisker Rav, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, Rav Belsky, Rav Tuvia Leff, Rav Yitzchok Hutner, all agreed with him. And their hashkafos were based entirely on the Torah. It was the Rebbe who was advocating something new.

>>Rav Steinsaltz

whose seforim were put in cherem by Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Tzitz Eliezer.

>>Rav Yehuda Levi

Do you know who this man was?

>>Rav Ovadya Yosef

This is untrue.

>>and various other geonim

also untrue

>>ALL OF WHOSE stature in lomdus outstrips his own by far.

This is a joke. I don't even understand how a layman can even make such an empty assertion. Unfortunately, it merely flows from the overall ignorance and violent, fundamentalist hatred which charcterizes the balance of your comment.

>>Unfortunately, R'Shach never chose to debate the issue with sources in Torah

You obviously never read his seforim.

>>only to attack the other person / opinion, just like his silly followers posting here.

The only person who did that was you. After asserting tha anyone who read the Michtavim u'Maamorim would know the following, you have made false assertions about things you know nothing about--attacking the other person, not the opinion, out of complete and utter ignorance.

>>So yes guys, thanks for proving the point :-)

The point is that you are a hater of violent, psychotic proportions. You rebbe taught you to act in this manner. Thank you for proving the point--only the other way.

Anonymous said...

>>Get it? That means that if YOU feel hungry before davening, TORAH says to eat. Yes boys, the same Torah that says "Veahavta l'reiacha kamocha". Hate away boys, but please stop blaming your hate on Torah, your lies are showing.

The question was simple, do you really feel hungry every day before you daven?

The only person who does not know anything aboue v'ehavta is you, with your profoundly hateful and untrue comments. I don't think I have met a bigger anti semite than you (aside from Albert, of course).

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Yossi said...

>>Where do you see the hypocrisy ? I thought his points were mostly spot on, although he is a bit tough on poor Burech. Sounds like he just wants a fair debate of the issues instead of firebombing, nothing wrong wit that

The hypocrisy is calling for shalom but acting in the most deliberately mean, insulting, vicious and degrading manner possible. This man would quote Chazal after Chazal about the value of derech eretz, but only do so to make the other individual look awful. To see the words of Torah be manipulated to savor the satisfaction of hurting another yid is the ultimate hypocrisy.
-----------------------------
LOL. You mean he sounds like Mattisyahu Salomon - no kidding !!
Or maybe he just learned by R' Elya Svei....

Anonymous said...

Anonomous, you are compairon a sonei yisroel to gedolim and tzadikim? What is the matter with you? Have you no yiras shomayim at all? Don't you have ANY yiras haonesh? Are you so full of hate and evil that you cannot take a good look at yourself before you write such coarse, disgusting motzi shem rah? Have you a soul?

YOssi said...

Several posters took note of the smarmy, snarky comments made by this man. All you can do in response is bring down gedoley yisroel? You are so low, and so devoid of content and pnimius, I don't think there is any point in responding to you.

Anonymous said...

Dov Bear, rather than rehash your lies, I'll simply post an article by a well-known talmid chacham who, sadly, was dead-on in his analysis. (Like any other rational person, I don't agree with every position of his, but his lomdus is indisputable.)
Here's the article :
There has been a lot of talk about gedolim and especially about
Rav Shach. Before people make any judgements I think it is important to know something about the man and his teachings. If what I say appears harsh, let me assure the readers that I have said the same things to many rabbis and they have agreed with me. Since the views I will be expressing are also those of numerous others it would be best for the moderator not to censor it. I realize that others are afraid to speak out so I will say what everyone else is thinking. Needless to say, the Lubavitchers have spoken out and been a great deal harsher than I will be but that is for good reason. Rav Shach has branded the rebbe a heretic. Furthermore, he
has branded the entire movement as heretical. Most people respond harshly when they have been called heretics, Especially since the other gedolim seem to have no great problem with Habad. They don't support everything Habad does but you don't have other gedolim using the inflammatory rhetoric of R. Shach.
In fact he is very inconsistent. He mocks the Lubavithcher Rebbe's Rambam learning program saying that people knew about the Rambam before Lubavitch came around and that no one should follow Habad's program and it is forbidden to innovate and yet he praises Daf
Yomi. Well, people knew about learning Talmud before R. Meir Shapiro.
The difference is that when Rav Shach likes something, when it comes from his circles, then it is ok. However if an innovation, no matter how good, comes from another circle then he viciosly attacks it.
In general, everything that comes out of his mouth is criticism. He does not believe in building but in destroying. All of his volumes of letters are attacks against everything from Lubavitch, to religious Zionism, to Hesder yeshivot, to Rav Goren (who has no yirat shamayim according to Shach), to R. Steinsaltz (another heretic). When the rest of he Jewish world was celebrating the Entebbe raid and Reb Moshe said it
was an open miracle Shach gave a talk saying that what the Government did was forbidden. He gave his famous talk last year viciously attacking the kibbutzim. Why? We all know that they don't keep kosher there but why attack them. Is this the way to bring people together and bring them to yiddishkeit? Is this love? Lubavitch knows how to be mekarev, they do it through love. Shach
simply attacks. And then he attacked President Herzog for no reason. Herzog did more for religious Jewry than any president and he is a fine man but Shach viciously attacks him just like he attacks the kibbutzniks who have laid down their lives so that he could live in peace. And he
expects the secularists to keep subsidizing the yeshivot at the massive rate they have been?
Rav Shach has no value in his life other than that of learning
Torah. People can't feel good about anything other than learning Torah. There is no value to the State of Israel other than that it enables us to learn Torah and its destruction would be no great tragedy if Torah continued to be learnt. He opposed the annexation of East Jerusalem and Golan because it will get the goyim mad. He says that Jews in Israel should act as if they were dancing before the Polish nobleman. In other words, the fact that Jews now have a state means nothing about how they relate to the world. They still must have this inferiority comples. There is something wrong with having pride and holding one's head up. While the country stops for two minutes to commemorate Yom Hashoah they go about their business. Do they realize how much of a hillul hashem this is and how it hurts the feelings of others who are remembering loved ones. Of course they know but they don't care. Unlike Lubavitch they enjoy confrontation. For R. Shach there is only one truth. He has no conception of Jewish history and doesn't realize that there can be disputes in matters of hashkafah, as long as we all accept Torah and halakhhah. Thus when R.Ovadiah decided to join the government he threatened to ban all of the
latter's books No other gadol has ever made such irresponsible
statements and acted in such a dictatorial manner.
Everything I have described so far is written in his books. I have not made any of it up and if gets you mad hearing what he believes
trust me that this is only the tip of the iceberg and there is no way
that anyone who reads this line should regard him as an important gadol, since everything most of us view as important he mocks (he even says its forbidden to form rabbinic organizations).
To give one final example of this let me refer to Rav Shach's
attack on R. Soloveitchik in vol. 4 of his letters. As everyone knows, there were always disputes in hashkafah between the Rav and other gedolim. However this never stopped the Lubvavitcher rebbe or Reb Moshe or Reb Aharon Kotler from being on close personal terms with the Rav and respecting his gadlus. Obviously Reb Moshe and the Lubavticher Rebbe, as well as the Rav, believed that their own approach was correct and the others were wrong. But they never said that the approach of the other's was forbidden. It was just misguided. Similarly, the Rav never said that everyone had to learn secular studies, that other aproaches were invalid. Rather, only that his approach was also legitimate.
Rav Shach has a different approach, one which shows all of his feeling of knowing everything and his belief that he, and only he, knows the truth, the one and only truth. In discussing the Rav's book Hamesh
Derashot he doesn't say that we have a different view or that the Rav is wrong. No, what he says is that it is forbidden to listen to what the Rav says. Forbidden. the Rav goes against Daat Torah and the Rav has completely distorted Daas Torah (one wonders whose Daas Torah. Doesn't the Rav have his own Daas Torah?) Since anyone who goes against Daas Torah speaks heresy it is forbidden to listen to what the Rav says! Does he realize who is talking about? This is not some Mizrachi functionary
he is mocking (not that this is forgivable either). He is speaking about Rav Soloveitchik, whom R. Tendler called the greatest Rosh Yeshivah of our generation, whom the Lubavitcher rebbe stood up for etc. etc. May God forgive him for degrading our teacher! Furthermore, R. Shach continues, it is the Rav's secular studies which are responsible for these distortions. Woe are the ears which hear such nonsense. What
chutzpah, to say that secular studies distorted the Rav's Torah! R.Shach goes on for a few pages without any respect for the fact that the Rav was a gadol and he is entitled to have different hashkafah, also throwing in some irrelevancies about how Hesder yeshivot have destroyed any notion of striving for greatness in Torah learning. (He also hates hesder because their students actually get a job. For R. Shach, and
Israeli Haredim, as oposed to American haradim, there is something negative about actually working for a living. There is no concept of a Baal ha-Bayit. That is why he put Leo Levi's book Shaare Talmud Torah in
Herem, since it advocates a Torah im Derekh Eretz [i. e.earning a
living] approach). Shach is also confused how come the rabbis in the U.S. did not protest The Rav's opinions and furthermore that they
contributed to the book Kevod ha-Rav . This is a great hillul hashem since by giving the Rav a book in his honor and praising him the yeshivah students will see this and think that is ok to follow in the Rav's path, God forbid, and will absorb his views which are completely "pasul".
I could go on but I think everyone gets the point. When it comes to gedolim we should consult R. Eliashiv, R. Shlomo Zalman, the chief Rabbis, R. Ovadia etc. We should not even take Rav Shach's opinion into consideration. By adopting such a hateful tone and being so opposed to everything we consider decent he is not really different than the Satmar
rebbe, who was, as R. Aharon Soloveitchik told me, a great scholar who made a terrible blunder. So too with Rav Shach. He has slandered great gedolim and for his sake we should hope that it was all done le-shem shamayim. When I asked R. Aharon why we don't put him in Herem in
accordance with the pesak of the Rambam re. anyone who slanders a gadol all he could say was that we no longer use the Herem. One thing must be said for Lubavitch, even thought R.Shach says they are heretics and that their rebbe is one of the greatest sinners alive, and going straight to gehinnom, they have not lost their cool. I don't think there will be any
rejoicing in Crown Heights when he passes away. They realize that this
whole affair is very sad. Unfortunately, however, when the rebbe passes away there will be rejoicing in Ponovezh because one is supposed to rejoice at the death of a heretic. What have we come to!
Marc Shapiro

P. S. As I already pointed out, everything I have said in this letter hasmet with the approval of rabbis, none of whom are in the Lubavitch camp.

Anonymous said...

>>Dov Bear, rather than rehash your lies, I'll simply post an article by a well-known talmid chacham who, sadly, was dead-on in his analysis. (Like any other rational person, I don't agree with every position of his, but his lomdus is indisputable.)

You have some great nerve to call me a liar. This article was repudiated BY THE AUTHOR. He recanted his misrepresentations on daastorah.blogspot.com when a poster there demonstrated the fact that he was COMPLETELY wrong on EVERYTING he wrong.

One need not inquire into my lomdus. Or my integrity. My credibility rests on the assurance that those, like myself, who have READ the michtavim know what it says, and know that you, you ruthless, heartless anti-semite, lies about every single thing you wrote; that everything in your last post was complete sheker. And the only thing you had to support yourself (you clearly lied that you read the michtavim) was a letter written by Marc Shaprio who has withdrawn from these comments because they were untrue.

Once again, your fundamentalist hatred is glaring. Your hatred toward Hashem and his people will not be forgotten. You can do the research and recant your views just like Mar, a scholar of note, has. Or, you can wait to be judged.

Yossi said...

I love how you write, sadly, when you are so gleeful in your attempts to besmirch the greatest TORAH leader of the last generation!

Who taught you chumash, heinrich himmler?

Yossi said...

I love how you write, sadly, when you are so gleeful in your attempts to besmirch the greatest TORAH leader of the last generation!

Who taught you chumash, heinrich himmler?

Benny Hill said...

Listen up, chevre:
Although in your brainwashing factory you were taught to accept whatever any 'godol' preaches, regardless of whether it contradicts Torah or not, you really should stop lying about R'Schach and his positions. As some posters have already pointed out, the main difference between R'Schach and Lubavich, is that the Lubavichers support their positions with Torah sources, and not on a 'trust me' basis. This doesn't mean that we have to agree with the Lubavichers, only that they are within the torahdike framework, whereas one who speaks 'fun boich' is NOT. To demonstrate, I will quote directly from Mikhtavim uMaamarim, which unlike Dov Bear, I have actually read.
R’ Schach on:

Rabbi Yoseph Ber Soloveitchik
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim (Bnei Brak, 5848 -5755), vol. 4 pages 36-40. [RS’s article is full] “of things that it is forbidden to hear”. See also ibid. p. 107 [in reference to RS’s work: “the book contains heresy, in the literal sense of the word. The mind boggles at such a site”. For Rabbi Shach it was better to cause ruptures in the Jewish community than to allow thousands of Jewish hearts and minds to be poisoned by RS heresy, as judged by a man with not much mevinus in hashkafa himself….

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz
Rabbi Shach, Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 65-7. [In a letter written two days before Rosh HaShanah in the year 5749]: “…All his works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”

See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought. See also ibid. p. 28-9. Rabbi Shach explained that he was not lacking in Ahavas Yisrael.On the contrary he was saving the souls of all the Jewish people who had the potential to be influenced by the impure works of rabbi Steinsaltz.

On Rabbi Shlomo Goren
Rabbi Shach Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, vols.1-2, pp.73-4; vol. 6, pp.78-9. “He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers. One must mourn for the Sefer Torah that was burned”.

Rabbi Shach acknowledged that Rabbi Goren claimed that he was not violating the law and had authored a book in which he justifies his opinion. However, although he himself had not read it, those who had, had informed him that it was no more than “a joke, falsification of facts and lies”. This is sadly typical of a man who loves to criticize people, but often doesn’t bother to investigate what he’s attacking before he shoots.

On Rabbi Yehudah Levi
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vol. 1, pp. 107-8. [Book expressing ‘Hirschian’ philosophy was banned and the author severely chastised for expressing views that are held to be wrong in certain circles.]


On Religious Zionists
Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vols.1-2, pp.75-6. [Although Rabbi Shach was most passionate in his views on the secular Israelis, he also inveighed heavily against religious Zionists (or ‘quasi aggudists’: “agguda’im le-machatzeh”). Rabbi Shach once said:] “I am compelled to tell you”, that they are essentially no different. It is “the same pot” of Tereifah meat; “the only difference is that their [the religious Zionist’s] pot is covered with a knitted yarmulke (Kippah Serugah)!” Religious Zionists have done nothing for the benefit of Torah causes in Israel. They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’). They include Yeshivah high schools in the ambit of their interests – “Oy! What a sharp sword on the soul of the Yeshivos!”
Of course there is also Rabbi Menachem Kasher, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohain Kook, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi M. Schneerson, and many other Talmidei Chachamim…
There is much more proof of what R'Schach actually was, if you guys would like to read it, just keep posting lies, and I'll help you out with some facts....

Moshe Peltz said...

Question for Dov Bear, Burech, Hyman et al;
Why are you entitled to believe in your rosh-yeshives so blindly, under the guise of 'daas teyreh', yet when the Lubavitchers follow their rebbe (who actually SOURCED & REFERENCED all his positions in torah), you jump off a bridge screaming "kfirah" ? Why would any rational person believe YOU ?
Please answer coherently,
Thanks,
Moshe Peltz

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yossi

some of my classmates would probably say that out first grade Rebbi was pretty close to H.H.....

Arthur said...

Anonymous 12:47 PM
You can now join me AKA as "Albert" in gehennim together with all the posters that spew their venom against the Rebbe.Maybe we'll get a chance to meet the Oihaiv Yishmoel of Bnai Brak down there as we are being barbecued.

Benny Hill said...

I bet this is a bit more than you expected, Burich, isn't it ?
See what happens when you bite off more than you can chew...
Next time keep quiet and stay in your hole.

Dov Ber said...

Unlike Benny Hill, I have read all the Michtavim. The fact that he manufactured one sentence here or there does not demonstrate that Rav Shach does not provide jutification for his views. Frankly, his representation is so facetious that it makes him lost all his credibility.

While we are at it, the Rebbe did not PROVE with sources that the bnei torah who expressed surprise at one of the rebbe's justifications for not sleeping in a sukka are "shluchim" of the sitra achar. He said this without any sources. Its on video.

He also said, without any sources, that the Chazon Ish is jealous of young boys in Chabad becuase they learn Tanya.

You have not proven any facts. The only think you have proven is that you have no integrity and that you lack the fundamental intelligence to think you can fool anyone into thinking that one sentence from a letter can prove your hate-based agenda.

>>Why are you entitled to believe in your rosh-yeshives so blindly, under the guise of 'daas teyreh', yet when the Lubavitchers follow their rebbe (who actually SOURCED & REFERENCED all his positions in torah), you jump off a bridge screaming "kfirah" ? Why would any rational person believe YOU ?
Please answer coherently,
Thanks,

Everything Rav Shach said was sourced. Every drey the rebbe made of sources is still, in the end, a drey. Quoting a gemara stating that a neshama can be jealous in shomayim along with a quote from his father-in-law that Chassidus is the pnimius of Torah does not "prove" that the Chazon Ish is jealous of children who learn Tanya [He even suggested that the Chazon Ish, of all people, was a misnaged. Anyone who knows Jewish history knows of the relationship that the Chazon Ish had with many chassidish giants. To make such a gross misrepresentation says a lot about the extent of the rebbe's research before he spooke]. That's a drey. Not a source. Suggesting that 770 is b'mkomo is a drey, not a source. If Rav Shach would have said such things, he would have regarded as an am ho'oretz. But his works are not riddled with such sophistry. His points addressed by the sonei hashem, Benny Hill, are mainstream beliefs (even the Rav had MAJOR problems with Rav Goren's piskei halacha, and he argued with him very strognly when the latter gave a shiur in YU) and his points are very well summarized and cogently supported. Benny Hill, because he is from the zerah of Amalek who wages war against Hashem with great mesirus nefesh, would manufacture excerpts to make it appear otherwise, but one thing the olam hayeshiva cannot be accused of is blind belief in madness.

Jews for Jesus would not have published, "Right idea, wrong Person" in the New York Times were it not for the madness many in Chabad believe, and, given the many "sources" provided by Rabbi Butman and his kind, believe to be from the rebbe's mouth.

So, to answer your question, your assumption is incorrect.

Both you and the sonei Hashem, Benny Hill, would do very well learning the facts.

Anonymous said...

>>You can now join me AKA as "Albert" in gehennim together with all the posters that spew their venom against the Rebbe.Maybe we'll get a chance to meet the Oihaiv Yishmoel of Bnai Brak down there as we are being barbecued.

Again, with your evil, disgusting talk. You will burn. And it is there where you will realize how you should have referred to the great kadosh you unilaterally decided to malign and disparage.

Moshe Peltz said...

Nice try, Dov Bear.
Why don't you provide us with direct quotes and page numbers for what you claim. And are you saying that 'Benny Hill' made these quotes up, because a friend of mine is about to fax me the pages that he quoted, and we'd hate to see you as an even more desperate liar ?
Moshe Peltz

Yiddel said...

Careful, Albert believes that those in Chazal who made such exhortations about gehinom were really Christian.

Arthur said...

Oh my G_D This anonymous 2:17:00 PM most be the same jerk that keeps on telling me "that your going to burn" and talks about my "evil,disgusting talk" about his "hero".Well my friend he was a wonderful role model for me to follow and this so called "great kodesh that I unilaterally???? decided to malign and disparage" chose to malign and disparage my hero and if I burn then.....

Benny Hill said...

What about Reb Elya Svei, who directed the hanholo at Torah Temima to do NOTHING about the abuse and molestation going on. IS HE A GODOL TOO ? Is a godol allowed to direct the destruction of yiddishe neshomos ? Are you people so stupid that you believe this is derech hatorah ?!
Chabad provides the basis for their customs in torah, not every remark the Rebbe made in a farbrengen. Keep trying, Dov Bear, and meanwhile for all you brainwashed kooks, I'll repost a letter here from some time back - a letter highlighting the difference between a Jew with ahavas-yisroel like Rav Pam zt"l, and the fakes you idiots choose to worship.

Dov Ber said...

I am a desparate liar? ME?!?!! What did I EVER lie about? NOTHING!!! I demonstrated the obvious: one quote without support does not demonstrate that entire passages are unsupported by gemara. Besides, these are mainstream views shared by nearly all gedolei yisroel. The fact that you write in such a way says mounds about the way you think. How much evil can there be in your heart to even suggest that I lied? You make no sense!

Anonymous said...

As usual, Albert makes no sense. I did not ever write that you are going to burn because you wrote in so flagrant and disgusting manner as you did against my hero, but rather, against a kadosh. The Rebbe said his share about things against the kadosh, among others, as well. I did not say anything about neither.

If he is your role model, where are you shiurim on all of Shas and Rambam? How many people have you helped? What have you ever done for anyone in klal yisroel? What have you ever done for anyone outside yourself and writing in the sick, disgusting manner in which you continue to debase yourself?

Anonymous said...

An open letter to Rabbi Matisyahu Salomon, Mashgiach, Bais Medrash Govoha, Lakewood, New Jersey:

Dear Rabbi Salomon:

I heard your speech at the Agudah Convention and have a few comments and questions I would like to share with you. I am writing this letter in an open forum as I believe the issues herein are of vital importance to our people and warrant the same circulation as your much publicized speech.

I take no issue with your well reasoned argument calling for civility in expression of disagreement. Bnai Torah should be able to agree to disagree. While I join you in condemning the deplorable language used by the few, I respectfully suggest that dissenters need not be placed in the category of “rasha,” or “maskil” for you to make your point. Likewise, suggestions of “hakei es shinov” and proclamations that children of select members of our community whose views you may disagree with have no place in our schools; do little to further civilized discourse.

In your speech you made a point of declaring your lack of cowardice in dealing with the issue of sexual abuse by rabbeim in yeshiva and insisted that keeping your efforts discreet or as you put it to “sweep under the carpet,” is a choice you make to protect human dignity. Whose dignity are you referring to? The dignity of those few victims courageous enough to step forward and confront these powerful monsters or the dignity of these monsters and their poor families? I respectfully suggest that by concerning yourself with the dignity of the pedophile and sweeping his heinous acts under the carpet, you subject his victims to another round of abuse at the hands of the community while enabling the predator to continue his reign of terror on unsuspecting victims.

We are taught “chochmah b’goyim, taamin.” Medical statistics tell us that a treated pedophile has a sixty percent rate of recidivism. This places the pedophile squarely in the category of a rodeph and as such we have a duty to our community to expose him so that potential victims are aware of this clear and present danger. Sex Offender Registries exist for a reason. Namely, the law and medical science recognize that these people are incapable of controlling themselves. You may be impressed by a heartfelt and tearful confession coupled with a commitment to never again succumb to temptation, (“teshuva”). However, you will not be present when this pedophile succumbs to his overwhelming urges and destroys another poor innocent life. Respectfully, you do not have the right to ignore universally accepted medical knowledge and take innocent children’s lives into your hands for the sake of a pedophile’s “dignity.”

Indeed, your strategy of not acting until the pedophile has been proved 100 percent guilty and using the Torah as your guide to protect our mosdos is not new. As will be shown below this very same strategy was followed by many other rabbonim with disastrous results. Rabbi Shalom Yosef Elyashiv puts it best while writing about this very issue. Rabbi Elyashiv quotes the Rashba who writes in his Responsa, III no. 393, “…Because if you will adjudicate based only on the laws established by the Torah, society will be destroyed…” (emphasis added).

Yes, we do need to stop “the terrible assault” and “immunize against a plague” of “insidious poison seeping in.” It is our duty to teach our children to “rise in their defense” and of course we must “give them the ammunition to fight back when they are attacked.” You and I differ only in our opinion of where the threat lies. You maintain with an impressive fervor that the threat lies with disrespectful bloggers. I respectfully disagree and see the threat to be that deadly minority of rabbeim who are morally corrupt and are destroying our children.

In your speech you alluded to the case of Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, a rebbe in Yeshiva Torah Temimah for over thirty-eight years. You express indignation that this one example of a pedophile that “slips through the fingers” is being used as an illustration of how Klal Yisroel behaves. Rabbi Salomon; unfortunately one is as one does. As such, this is who we are as a community today. Tragically, the story as depicted by the secular media in all its gory detail is but the tip of the iceberg.

The below bullet point history is general and merely touches upon events of the past forty years. If you want more details, I suggest you confer with Rabbi Ephraim Wachsman, who was employed by Kolko in Camp Ma-Na-Vu and will surely share his knowledge of events with you. Remind Rabbi Wachsman of his expression of remorse to his friends for not having informed his uncle, Rabbi Shloime Klein, of Kolko’s predilection for young boys when Rabbi Klein was embroiled in a difficult din torah with Kolko and Rabbi Lipa Geldwirth in or around 1990.

A Partial Biography of Rabbi Yehuda Kolko & Rabbi Lipa Margulies

· 1967 – While working as Dormitory Counselor at Yeshivas Mir, Rabbi Yehuda Kolko calls a student (name withheld) out of his dormitory room and begins discussing matters of a sexual nature with him while rubbing up against him in an aroused state. This abuse continues for the remainder of the school year and into the summer season at Camp Agudah. This student is now a distinguished Manhattan attorney living happily with his partner in New York City and insists that his lifestyle choice has absolutely nothing to do with his abuse by Kolko.

· 1969 thru 1971 - Rabbi Yehuda Kolko begins abusing Dovid Framowitz in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas of Flatbush (now known as Yeshiva Torah Temimah) and Camp Agudah, the details of which abuse are now public knowledge. Mr. Framowitz, a grandfather living in Eretz Yisroel, has not gone a day since being abused without reliving the unspeakable agony he suffered at Kolko’s hands.

· 1972 - Rabbi Yehuda Kolko sexually abuses two young campers (names withheld at the request of the victims) in Camp Agudah who complain to their counselor. Their counselor reports the complaint to Rabbi Simcha Kaufman. The abuse of these two boys cease for the remainder of that summer. Rabbi Simcha Kaufman is a co-worker of Kolko in Yeshiva Torah Temimah (more on Kaufman below) and was a co-worker of Kolko in Camp Agudah until 1976 when Kolko voluntarily left Camp Agudah after he co-founded Camp Ma-Na-Vu with Rabbi Lipa Geldwirth, another co-worker of his at Yeshiva Torah Temimah.

· 1977 – Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, employed as a rebbe in Yeshiva Torah Temimah in the morning, is employed in the afternoons by Yeshiva Karlin Stolin as Secular Studies Principal. During the course of his short tenure in Yeshiva Karlin Stolin numerous complaints are lodged by both students and parents (names withheld at the request of the victims) accusing Kolko of sexually abusing boys in the yeshiva. Rabbi Shmuel Dishon asks Kolko to leave the employ of the yeshiva.

· 1977 on – Eyewitness testimony and accusations of sexual abuse by Rabbi Yehuda Kolko of students at Yeshiva Torah Temimah and Camp Ma-Na-Vu reach a crescendo which culminates in several businessmen approaching Rabbi Lipa Margulies in 1984 and offering to fund a retirement package for Rabbi Yehuda Kolko provided he seeks employment away from children. Rabbi Lipa Margulies steadfastly refuses to accept the offer and suggests that those parents who disagree with his decision remove their children from his Yeshiva Torah Temimah.

· 1981 – Rabbi Yehuda Kolko sexually abuses a twelve year old student of Yeshiva Torah Temimah (name withheld at the request of the victim.) This victim publicizes the abuse and acts out, vandalizing Kolko’s home and car. Rabbi Lipa Margulies calls this victim's father and warns him that if this activity does not stop his other children would be expelled from yeshiva and the safety of his family could not be guaranteed. This victim is subsequently referred to Avrohom Mondrowitz for counseling.

· 1984 – As instructed by Rabbi Avigdor Miller, an askan calls for a meeting which takes place at the home of Rabbi Yakov Perlow (the Novominsker) and is attended by Rabbi Avrohom Pam, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, Rabbi Aharon Schechter, Rabbi Moshe Scheinerman, Rabbi Shia Fishman and Rabbi Yankel Bender. At this meeting, chaired by Rabbi Perlow, the askan discusses what is transpiring to innocent boys at the hands of Rabbi pedophiles and requests that Torah Umesorah and the rabbonim issue a statement calling for their removal from chinuch. Rabbi Svei informs this askan that Torah Umesorah has consulted their attorneys who advised that for Torah Umesorah to admit knowledge of such abuse would subject Torah Umesorah, its staff, all its member schools and their staff to liability for not having reported their knowledge to the authorities earlier. Accordingly, Rabbi Elya Svei informs the askan, neither he nor Torah Umesorah will do anything about this problem.

Anonymous said...

Daas Teyreh expose Part 2.
· 1984 thru 1985 – At directed by Rabbi Avrohom Pam an askan approaches Rabbi Moshe Scheinerman and the two meet with Rabbi Shia (Joshua) Fishman in the office of Torah Umesorah. Both Scheinerman and Fishman neglect to inform this askan that Fishman had been instructed by Torah Umesorah’s lawyer to do nothing about this issue. Rabbi Fishman requests the names of Kolko’s victims and promises absolute confidentiality. Names are provided to Rabbi Fishman who begins his own investigation of the allegations. He meets with and speaks with several victims who pour their hearts out to him after he guarantees them confidentiality. Rabbi Shia Fishman promptly discloses all he has learned to Rabbi Lipa Margulies who in turn publicly disparages and discredits each and every one of those boys who were brave enough to step forward.

· 1985 – A follow up meeting takes place at the home of Rabbi Simcha Kaufman and includes Rabbi Kaufman, Rabbi Lipa Margulies, Rabbi Shia Fishman, an askan and an eyewitness. The eyewitness recounts his personal knowledge of Rabbi Kolko’s sexual abuse of boys and discusses the information he had gleaned from others. Rabbi Lipa Margulies insists that the charges are all fabrications and attacks the reputations of everyone involved in seeking the removal of Kolko from his Yeshiva Torah Temimah. Rabbi Shia Fishman subsequently informs anyone who asks that he can not deal with this issue as he is old (50 at the time) and will lose his job if he pursues this matter.

· 1985 – Rabbi Moshe Scheinerman is offered a lucrative and prestigious position as rav of a shul (a position he holds to this day) and is told that he must cease and desist from his actions against Yeshiva Torah Temimah rabbeim (his own words) which he promptly does. Scheinerman abandons ship explaining that it is not appropriate for a rabbi of his stature to deal with these matters. Rabbi Yehoshua Leiman takes over.

· 1985 - Rabbi Yehoshua Leiman and others continue their quest for a solution and convene a bais din for this purpose. This bais din, consisting of Rabbi Menashe Klein, Rabbi Yechezkel Roth, Rabbi Aharon Stein, Rabbi Moshe Stern and Rabbi Chaim Yankel Tauber, is scheduled to hear testimony for two days after which they will rule on how to proceed. This panel meets and hears testimony for one day. Shortly thereafter, Rabbi Moshe Stern states that he is unable to participate in any more sessions and this bais din is disbanded without further explanation. In a private conversation with one of the askanim, Rabbi Stern disclosed that he had been approached by Rabbi Lipa Margulies which resulted in the discontinuance of the din torah.

· 1985 – Upon the dissolution of the above bais din, Rabbi Lipa Margulies retains Rabbi Pinchus Scheinberg to convene a second bais din for the purpose of clearing Rabbi Yehuda Kolko’s name. Rabbi Lipa Margulies then drafts Rabbi Friedman (the Tenka Rav) and Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Brown to serve on Rabbi Scheinberg’s bais din. Prior to convening the bais din, Rabbi Pinchus Scheinberg speaks with several of Kolko’s victims and asks them to describe what Kolko has done to them. Upon hearing the allegations Rabbi Scheinberg informs the boys that in the eyes of halacha they had not been molested. Rabbi Scheinberg also calls the askanim and tells them to cease and desist in their attempts to remove Kolko from chinuch. Rabbi Avigdor Miller disagrees and instructs the askanim in no uncertain terms to do whatever must be done to protect children from Kolko. Rabbi Pinchus Scheinberg convenes the bais din and takes the position that Rabbi Kolko has a chezkas kashrus absent any testimony by two adult witnesses to any single event. Rabbi Friedman takes the position that in light of the persistent rumors Rabbi Kolko must be kept away from children. Rabbi Brown ultimately concedes that there is no halachic evidence against Kolko and the din torah is concluded. Rabbi Lipa Margulies insists that he has a psak from this bais din but to this day has refused to produce it. Regardless, it is of note that no victims testified before this bais din.

· 1987 – Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, having groomed a former first grade student of his for years, begins systematically sexually abusing this boy (name withheld at the request of the victim) both in and out of the Yeshiva Torah Temimah building. When this boy complains to Rabbi Lipa Margulies that his grades are slipping because Kolko is removing him from class almost daily, Margulies responds by slapping the boy across the face and throwing him out of his office. This young man is now living down south where he is on leave of absence from the U.S. Army.

· 2001 – Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, takes a young Yeshiva Torah Temimah student under his wing (name withheld at the request of the victim) and begins removing him from class for “special projects.” These special projects include the boy being sexually molested by Kolko in the basement of the yeshiva, in Rabbi Kolko’s car and in Rabbi Kolko’s private office, which Rabbi Lipa Margulies has conveniently equipped with its own private bathroom. This young man is currently in therapy and hopes to be able to recover enough to be able to get married and start a family.

Anonymous said...

expose part 3.
· 2005 – Dovid Framowitz, after years of searching on the internet, chances upon a post written by a blogger calling himself “Un-Orthodox Jew” which makes reference to Rabbi Lipa Margulies harboring Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, a known pedophile, in his Yeshiva Torah Temimah. Dovid begins communicating with this blogger via e-mail who in turn posts Dovid’s story on his blog. Over the course of several months other victims of Kolko begin to step forward with their stories.

· January 2006 – Several askonim decide that this four decade long chillul hashem must stop and approach both Rabbi Yehuda Kolko and Rabbi Lipa Margulies with a demand that Kolko be removed from Yeshiva Torah Temimah and Camp Silver Lake and further commit to spending the rest of his life in treatment and away from children. Both Kolko and Margulies refuse.

· February 2006 – A letter is drafted informing the public that Rabbi Yehuda Kolko is a dangerous pedophile and that Rabbi Lipa Margulies continues to employ him despite his knowledge of this fact. Copies of this draft letter are delivered to Kolko and Margulies. Both Kolko and Margulies are offered the opportunity to deal quietly with the issue and are informed that if they continue to refuse, the letter would be mass mailed to the entire community. Kolko responds by stating that “the matter has been taken care of” and Margulies responds by asking if anyone “thinks Kolko is still a threat” and declares “if anyone does not like the way I run my yeshiva let them not send their children to my yeshiva.” They refuse to comply and the letter is sent out in a mass mailing.

· February 2006 – Eli Greenwald, a graduate of Yeshiva and Mesivta Torah Temimah, son of one of the founders of the yeshiva and a parent in the yeshiva receives the letter and spends a few days investigating the matter. He calls Rabbi Yaakov Applegrad, the yeshiva’s Administrator, and requests a meeting of the Vaad Ha'horim in order to address this serious issue. Rabbi Applegrad informs him that there will be no meeting as the allegations are false and that he and Rabbi Margulies have the matter under control. Mr. Greenwald called Rabbi Lipa Margulies and makes the same request of him. Rabbi Margulies responds by shouting at him.

· February 17, 2006 – Eli Greenwald is served with a hazmana issued by Rabbi Yisroel Belsky calling him to a din torah to answer the charge of hotzoas shem rah allegedly committed against Rabbi Yehuda Kolko. Mr. Greenwald responds on February 21, 2006, that he will appear for a din torah before the Bais Din of America. To this day there has been no reply to Mr. Greenwald’s response by either Kolko or Rabbi Yisroel Belsky.

· February 2006 – An askan meets with Rabbi Yaakov Perlow and pleads with him to get involved in this matter. Rabbi Perlow refuses on the basis of his being a yuchid and this being a tzibur matter. After being pressed further Rabbi Perlow takes his final stand that this is a Flatbush matter and as he is a Boro Park rabbi it would be unseemly for him to get involved in this matter.

· March 2006 – Rabbi Lipa Margulies reaches a standstill agreement with the askonim by committing to appear before a panel consisting of two rabbonim and one frum lawyer, all three of whom had been chosen by him. Rabbi Lipa Margulies reneges on his promise to appear before this panel.

· March 23, 2006 – A hazmana to a din torah is sent to Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, Rabbi Lipa Margulies and Yeshiva Torah Temimah summoning them to a din torah before the Bais Din of Mechon L’Hoyroa or a bais din of ZBLA. The hazmana is ignored by all the defendants.

· March 30, 2006 – A second hazmana to a din torah is sent to Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, Rabbi Lipa Margulies and Yeshiva Torah Temimah summoning them to a din torah before the Bais Din of Mechon L’Hoyroa or a bais din of ZBLA. By fax sent on April 5, 2006, Rabbi Lipa Margulies responds to this hazmana stating he will not appear for a din torah “without a prior determination of the charges against Rabbi Kolko.” Rabbi Kolko continues to ignore the hazmanas.

· April 6, 2006 – A third hazmana to a din torah is sent to Rabbi Yehuda Kolko, Rabbi Lipa Margulies and Yeshiva Torah Temimah summoning them to a din torah before the Bais Din of Mechon L’Hoyroa or a bais din of ZBLA. By fax sent on April 10, 2006, Rabbi Lipa Margulies responds to this hazmana by stating “the Hazmonah that you sent to us was not a valid Hazmonah.” Rabbi Kolko does not respond at all. It is of note that Rabbi Yehuda Kolko is still teaching in Yeshiva Torah Temimah while these exchanges are taking place.

· May 4, 2006 – A lawsuit is filed in United States District Court: Eastern District of New York, naming Rabbi Yehuda Kolko; Yeshiva & Mesivta Torah Temimah, Inc. and Camp Agudah as defendants. Rabbi Yehuda Kolko remains in the classrooms of Yeshiva Torah Temimah.

· May 5, 2006 – Rabbi Simcha Kaufman approaches Dovid Framowitz and with tears in his eyes tells him that if only he had known what Rabbi Kolko was doing to him he would have put a stop to it. Of interest was Rabbi Simcha Kaufman’s complete denial of any prior knowledge of any accusation before Dovid Framowitz brought his lawsuit. Rabbi Simcha Kaufman pleads with Dovid to withdraw his lawsuit lest he hurt Rabbi Lipa Margulies and the Yeshiva.

· May 10, 2006 – After being approached for comment on several occasions by Robert Kolker, a reporter for New York Magazine, and with a 5:00 printing deadline looming, Rabbi Lipa Margulies issues a statement through his attorney at 4:30 PM. Beginning with a proclamation that Yeshiva Torah Temimah is the preeminent yeshiva in the world followed by an absolute denial of all the allegations, the statement concludes with an announcement that Rabbi Kolko has agreed to a “leave of absence” pending resolution of this matter. Despite this claim, Rabbi Yehuda Kolko remains in the classrooms of Yeshiva Torah Temimah.

· May 12, 2006 – A second lawsuit is filed in United States District Court: Eastern District of New York naming Rabbi Yehuda Kolko; Yeshiva & Mesivta Torah Temimah, Inc. as defendants. Still, Rabbi Yehuda Kolko remains in the classrooms of Yeshiva Torah Temimah.

· May 15, 2006 – “On the Rabbi’s Knees – Do the Orthodox Jews Have a Catholic Priest Problem” a feature article in New York Magazine, a publication with a circulation of three million, is published. Within days of the publication of the article and after thirty-eight years of committing unspeakable acts of perversion in Yeshiva Torah Temimah, Kolko leaves the classrooms of Yeshiva Torah Temimah. It was only after the magazine hit the newsstands that Margulies succumbed to pressure and removed Kolko from the classrooms of Yeshiva Torah Temimah.

· July 2006 – Over the vocal protest of many residents and with the help of his friend Rabbi Yaakov Applegrad, Rabbi Yehuda Kolko takes up summer residence at a home in Regency Estates in the Catskills. Despite the claim that Kolko was on a leave of absence from Yeshiva Torah Temimah, he continues working for Camp Silver Lake, Yeshiva Torah Temimah’s summer home. In addition, Kolko initiates and organizes a multi-camp excursion to Lake Compounce, a water park located in Connecticut, where he is seen frolicking with young boys in bathing suits. A secular media outcry ensues resulting in Kolko being banned from the park by its non-Jewish management. Astonishingly, in August Kolko organizes a second trip to Lake Compounce, which is attended by the same frum boy’s camps who participated in the July trip.

The above is but a sampling of the cases I am aware of. One need not be a great lamden to realize that I am aware of only a small percentage of Kolko’s abuse victims. As rachmonim bnai rachmonim, it is unbearable to grasp the stunning extent of this catastrophe.

To all who decry the “chillul hashem” the New York Magazine article resulted in, I say; embarrassing, yes. Chillul hashem, absolutely not! Indeed, it is ironic that this very article which has been condemned by many rabbonim is what got you and them to belatedly acknowledge Kolko’s guilt. Apparently a mere forty years of koila d’lo posuk was not enough. Were the lawsuits and the magazine article the chillul hashem? No! The decades long chillul hashem is that of Margulies's and Kolko’s actions coupled with the many decades of improper action and inaction by our rabbonim and organizations. Their chillul hashem was somewhat offset by the recent kiddush hashem of the action taken by a few askonim. They, who had the courage to do what had to be done to protect our children from the acts of monsters and the cowardice of our rabbonim. All this I say with the utmost respect and reverence.

I lay no blame at your doorstep for the above; you come from another part of the world, did not participate in and have no first hand knowledge of these events. I merely ask you to understand the world of pain and destruction that Rabbi Yehuda Kolko and his enablers; with a special note of distinction going to Rabbi Lipa Margulies; have left in their wake. I respectfully question your judgment in showing respect and support for Rabbi Lipa Margulies without having done a thorough investigation of his history. Surely, l'man yishmeu v’yirahu, a man such as Lipa Margulies must be publicly vilified; not cholila v’chas publicly honored by someone of your esteem.

I respectfully submit that despite the focus of your speech, this issue has nothing to do with an obnoxious blogger or kovod haTorah. No reasonable adult takes this blogger’s inane ravings as anything but. That he fell into this issue and “b’mokom she'ain ish” he chose to “hishtadail lehios ish” and participate in pushing it forward, is a sad commentary on the egregious failures of our leadership. Rather, the issue is the still unanswered question of where our leaders were all these decades while Rabbi Yehuda Kolko and Rabbi Lipa Margulies were savaging our children. I ask with the utmost respect and humility; how can you stand in front of us in good faith and turn this into an issue of kovod hatorah? I ask that you hear the constant cries of anguish laden souls destroyed by chronic inaction coupled with a misguided concern for the “dignity” of rabbeim who molest.

This is not a tale of something that somehow “slips through the fingers” but rather only one of many glaring examples of what occurs in a community whose leaders are unwilling to deal with an issue that sits under a spotlight for four decades and engulfs the souls of countless innocent children. Hashem yerachaim.

As parents we have every right to expect that accusations of sexual abuse by a rebbe be first verified post haste and then publicized so that we may protect our children from this predator and make informed decisions about where to send our children to yeshiva. In the face of pikuach nefesh; cries of kovod haTorah, chillul hashem and loshon harah have no relevance. To resort to such cries is simply am ha'haretzes and violates the precept not to be a merachaim al ha'achzoir. The issue all of us need to address, lay people and rabbonim alike, is why nothing was done for so many decades and what lessons we can learn from our past mistakes to prevent future catastrophes of this nature.

Respectfully yours,

Hirshel Tzig said...

PLEASE, PEOPLE

I can't post all those letters regarding abuse and such. This is not the issue. We can't go off on a fifth and sixth tangent here.

Anonymous said...

>>What about Reb Elya Svei, who directed the hanholo at Torah Temima to do NOTHING about the abuse and molestation going on. IS HE A GODOL TOO ? Is a godol allowed to direct the destruction of yiddishe neshomos ? Are you people so stupid that you believe this is derech hatorah ?!

Interesting charge. You have proof? Until you do, I don't believe you, as your hate-filled agenda is so obvious. What about the fact the rebbe said one needs to do nothing about jewish neshomos in Africa? Are you so stupid that you think this is the Jewish way?

>>Chabad provides the basis for their customs in torah

No they don't.

>>not every remark the Rebbe made in a farbrengen.

So a remark about Judaism does not need to be supported by the Torah. Interesting.

So you are trying to pretend that Rav Shach did not support mainstream Charedi/Chassidish beliefs. You are suggesting, in your evil, naarishe way, that this is bad. And then you suggest that the Rebbe need not provide support for the notion that he is living in the makom mikdash because its merely a farbrengen. You are twisting yourself like a pretzel because you cannot get out of your hate.

>>Keep trying, Dov Bear

You are trying to make yidden hate each other. And you continue to prove how utterly low you are to the world because you cannot answer any questions. You continue to contradict yourself and present lies. Your inability to think critically and lack of basic knowledge coupled with your transparent hate demonstrates why people should not think like you.
All I am doing is demonstrating that.

>>and meanwhile for all you brainwashed kooks, I'll repost a letter here from some time back - a letter highlighting the difference between a Jew with ahavas-yisroel like Rav Pam zt"l, and the fakes you idiots choose to worship.

Who says people don't look up to Rav Pam as much as they look up to anyone else? You clearly know nothing about the frum world. The fact that someone as full of sin, evil, hate, and corruption can call himself a Jew is frightening.

The only way you can actually live with yourself is because you are the brainwashed kook.

Anonymous said...

This is proof? A letter? That proves what exactly?

Anonymous said...

This is proof? A letter? That proves what exactly?

m.mandel said...

Who's trying to make yidden hate each other, Dovber? WHO denied the Jewishness of so many other frumme yidde, who declared their wine 'yayin nesech', which demagogue called them 'bnei niddos'....
Now WHO'S the rasha that will burn, again ? You demand the right to defend hate against Chabad, but can't answer honest criticism yourself ?
Brainwashed hypocrite.

Anonymous said...

The only brainwashed hypocrite is yourself. The Rebbe called thousands of yiddin shluchim of the satan and suggested the gadol haor wore passul tefillin. He said horrid things about the Chazon Ish, as well.

I never suggested the Rebbe will burn, but you suggested the gadol hador would.

That is the difference between me and you. And so long that difference remains, you remain the brainwashed hypocrite.

Dov Ber said...

M. Mandel,

Please define hypocrisy. I don't think you know what that word means. In fact, you think with so much hate, I don't believe you have thought about what I wrote and what Chabad actually believes at all.

I have done everything I can for Moshiach. I leave it up to you.

Arthur said...

Please, please tell me the exact quote of the Rebbis "horrid" words against the Chazon Ish.You guys keep on saying this the same piece of garbage repeatedly and when asked for the exact words of the Rebbe all I get is "everyone knows", "it's around on the internet" blah blah blah but no real answer.
As far as Rav Shachs Tefillen the Rebbi was expressing his Ahavas Yisroel.He could not fathom the idea that a so called "manhig" and "lamdin" in his right mind, could rant and rave the way Maran did against other Yidden.Ergo,it's not him.It's his Tefillen

Moshe Peltz said...

So we come full-circle,Dov Ber, and all our other loving friend...
Hate = Calling other manhigei yisroel heretics if we don't agree with them.
Hate= Branding the wine of other frum Jews 'yayin nesech' if we don't like them.
Hate= Slandering entire kreizen of frum Jews because you don't like their derech.
Blind Hate= Declaring in writing that Rabbonim you've branded 'heretics' cannot possibly do teshuva (even when al-pi-din they can).
Love= Devoting one's life to helping all Jews, everywhere, in every possible way.
Love= Someone in their 80's and 90's standing on their feet for six or seven hours every week (without pausing for any food or drink) simply to bless other Jews and give them advice.
Love= Teaching massive amounts of torah and sending thousands of students everywhere in the world there is a Jew, to help them and teach them.
Unrivalled brilliance in torah= Teaching for, cumulatively, thousands of hours, in all areas of torah, without ever having an open sefer in front of you. Has anybody here ever seen a RY make a siyum mesechta or a hadran with no sefer open...?
Ahavas chinam= Giving up your entire life in the service of klal-yisroel and constantly being obsessed with how to improve the lot of Jews.
Rishus= Deliberately abandoning innocent children to vile abuse when you have the power to stop the abuser (see hil. rotzeach/shmiras hanefesh)
Sinas chinam= Viciously delegitimizing tens of thousands of Jews whom one has never even met, shelo k'din, in the harshest possible way, when you yourself have not done anything material to help them.
Your yeshiva has done whatever they could for your type, DovBer, next stop is the deprogramming center, or a Chabad House somewhere for a lesson in ahavas yisroel - I went to Ner and was told all the same lies you choose to believe (probably more), but when I hit the real world and checked things out, I did an about face. I suggest you take the opening poster's advice...do some thinking.
Moshe Peltz
Moshe Peltz

Dov Ber said...

According to your logic, the Rebbe did not wear koshur tefillin. After all he "ranted and raved" that to a very respectful Rav Kahana that thousands of Jews who learn Torah all day and night are shluchim of the satan.

This is pure Ahavas Yisroel.

Dov Ber said...

Moshe,

I pity you, the only hate that you see is that which is still in your heart, that which the rebbe and his movement taught you. This hate will never leave you because you refuse to be honest with yourself.

Your examples are so full of hyperbole and can so easily be refuted that there really is no point in dealing with you. Not until you are ready for emes, ready--truly ready--for pnimius.

May you be zoche to do teshuva. And, in the wisdom of your rebbe, I strongly advise you to check your teffillin.

Benny Hill said...

Arthur,
You're wasting your time, clearly. Notice that not one of these posters has quoted chapter & verse for anything they don't like about Lubavitch, because they can't. Note the pathological 'comparison' between saying that a Godol is jealous of those learning Tanya as children, with wholesale slander of entire groups of Yidden as, r"l, heretics. For them it's all roughly equivalent, because thats what brainwashing does, it impedes the ability to judge rationally or by the merits. And in this point, the opening poster was absolutely right. What the gemoro he quoted proves, is how true sages act in a disagreement. Unfortunately, the way certain roshei-yeshiva have chosen to act in the last 50 years has no precedent in Shas or Poskim. Though I'd bet you none of the 'lamdonim' attacking him have even learnt that gemoro, nor looked it up. Such is life.... they will stay in their caves of hate, while Chabad will continue to grow. Perhaps the saddest thing is that since Chabad has ongoing contact with so many others, they will have the opportunity to grow stronger through constructive criticism, while those in the cave will wallow in their hate and insecurity.
Chaval.

Dov Ber said...

Benny Hill,

After all the lies you have made on this thread, your last post is probably most telling of all. How low you are, how desparate you are to cling to your tiny little, meaningless view of life--to maintain your hatred toward every single Jew outside of chabad while pretending to be an innocent victim--is most evident of all in your last little show. You and the most evil, pernicious sonei yisroel and sonei hashem of all, Arthur, are the cave dwellers, maintaining your kook views on the world. You can come out. But you will see the light, a light of truth which you are obviously too scare of really seeing.

You have yourself slandered so many thousdands of Jews on this thread, written them off, referred to the greatest leaders in the most disgusting of terms, that its hard to determine whether you have the ability to drag yourself out of this rut and see the truth of your actions and false, evil beliefs.

Best of luck.

Anonymous said...

>>Unfortunately, the way certain roshei-yeshiva have chosen to act in the last 50 years has no precedent in Shas or Poskim.

Not a single rosh yeshiva declared his house the makom mikdash, even as a joke.

Hirshel Tzig said...

DovBer

you know none of what you said is true, but I'll grant you this: you spin it well. "Spinmeister" in the dictionary has your picture next to it. I'm sure you're successful in business and manipulate your wife into getting what you want in life.

Now go away.

Anonymous said...

Interestingly, the first post on this thread, commented on the snarky tone of the evil writer. Nothing about chazal. but then again, what do you, of all people, care about reality.

Moshe Peltz said...

No, DovBer, I'm sitting here looking at a pile of faxed pages, of Michtavim u'Maamarim that were sent to me an hour ago, and guess what ?
The quotes posted here by Benny Hill are exact translations, and there are no mekoros !? So don't accuse him of distortion, that homor is your own.
Please address THIS ratinally. How does one justify such wideranging slander of other 'manhigei yisroel' ?
Moshe Peltz

Anonymous said...

Your comment reminds me of what the King said about the Ramban's remarks in defense of Yiddishkeit: I have never seen something so false defended so well. Like the Rambam, I know the truth.

May Hashem enlighten your eyes.

PS It is childish to assume anything about my personal life. Be a mentsch, and keep it on point

Anonymous said...

You are a liar. He translated basically one sentence (assuming he understands hebrew) in each michtav. Go through the whole thing. If you want, I can try to teach you Hebrew; it looks like you need lessons on how to read!

Arthur said...

"after all he "ranted and raved" that to a very respectful Rav Kahana that thousands of Jews who learn Torah all day and night are shluchim of the satan."
Hmmm.Ive watched the video of the converstion your referring to at least ten times or maybe more and L never heard that "thousands of Jews who learn Torah all day and night are shluchim of the satan." Maybe you read something into the words of the Rebbe that he never said but you wanted to hear.Perhaps you don't have a clear grasp of Yiddish.Please as I asked about what the "horrible" things were that the Rebbe supposedly said about the Chazon Ish ,and still have not received an answer,can you please give me the exact words and source for the above alleged words of the Rebbe about the "thousands of Jews that are shluchim of the soton"? It's interesting to note that Rav Kahana asked for a Brocha from the Rebbe in spite of the his alleged statement and so did his Rebbitzin.Buy of course you know that because you saw the video.

Anonymous said...

I thought you backtracked and said that, unlike Halacha, a sicha or farbrengen does not need mekoros.

Anonymous said...

Every Chabadsker knows that I am takling about in connection with the CI. The fact that you act so innocently demonstrates your profound dishonesty or ignorance.

Hirshel Tzig said...

e know what the Rebbe said, we just see it differently than you do. No hate, it was said very nicely, with a smile.

Anonymous said...

Only, if I were to say the same thing about the rebbe with same maara mekomos in connection with, say, brisker torah, you would go nuts on me. Even if I say it with a smile.

Hirshel Tzig said...

go nuts? no siree.

and I definitely would not react the way you have. I see the Rebbe's words bother you....

Anonymous said...

It was the last straw for me and the rebbe.

Anonymous said...

I would never have reacted the way Albert did. . .

Arthur said...

"Every Chabadker knows,,,,"but still no answer to my two quetions.Nor mi drait mit dem groben finger.

Arthur said...

"I would never have reacted the way Albert did. . ." so you reacted even worse then "Albert" supposedly did,

burech said...

Lubabs,
Please.
A bit of logic,ok?
So EVERYONE may eat before davening, since "haroeve vehatsomeh bichlal choileh'?
So who was the halocho of "loh sochlu al hadom' written for?
Lubab circumvent whatever they want.
A wholesale dispensation of halachos is viewed as normative?
The "whole community" claiming 'mitstaer" when it comes to sleeping in the sukka??
Mitztaer is a "pettur" not a wholrsale dispensation!
Lubab are the old fashioned am ho'oetz who twists things the way he wants.
"Chag hachagim"??No less?
And you claim to be Jewish???

Hirshel Tzig said...

I think I've seen enough on this thread....

Arthur said...

Tzig,Do you realize that there have been 105 posts and still counting with these ferd? I think it's time to rap it up.

Hirshel Tzig said...

you mean WRAP it up? yes. I agree.

Anonymous said...

>>"I would never have reacted the way Albert did. . ." so you reacted even worse then "Albert" supposedly did,

You and I both know that I never wrote the way you wrote about the gadol hador. Don't be such a minuval. And don't you dare call me a ferd after the way you behaved. Everyone knows what I am referring to, Tzig easily did, too. Stop lying.

Anonymous said...

Ah, Boorech, you idiot, you back for more ?
So the Rambam and the SA didn't know the posuk, you moron. The halocho is clear, not that anybody in Lubavitch davka eats before davening - some do, and some don't, it depends on the individual, AS THE SHULCHAN ORUCH SAYS.
Now go back your hole.

Anonymous said...

>>"I would never have reacted the way Albert did. . ." so you reacted even worse then "Albert" supposedly did,

You know what you wrote. And I never wrote that way about anyone. Even you. So don't you dare continue to lie about this or anything of the other evil things you did. And don't you dare call me a ferd, either.

Anonymous said...

Anonomymous 5:13. You are approaching this way too simplistically. You are coming across as the idiot, not burech. Try to answer his question as opposed to repeating the same point over again.

chaimshmeel said...

Yeah, this burich is a bit of a weasel...first he tries paskenen from a gemore, now he finds a possuk he 'understands' better that the poskim....

Anonymous said...

Chaimshmeel,

Again, its not like I don't sympathize with your position, but your comment demonstrates a profound level of ignorance of a very basic gemara. You are feeding into his hands.

Answer the question if you can. But don't insult him. Your comment makes you look very ignorant.

Anonymous said...

What's there to answer this fool ?
The halocho is perfectly clear. For one who can daven well, with kavono, without eating or drinking anything, that is what he should do. One who will get hungry or thirsty and thereby rush his davening or be distracted during it, should eat/ drink first. The story told of the Tzemach Tzedek with the "besser essen far'en davenen..." was no big chiddush, the TT was merelt stating the obvious.

chaimshmeel said...

What about the hesped, burich, that's not bothering you anymore...you actually looked in a Nittei Gavriel and saw how wrong you were, or was it the Reishis Chochmo...?
Don't worry, they'll make a nice long one for you - pity it'll be mostly lies.

Anonymous said...

He is saying that no one is hungry or thirsty everyday before davening. To that end, the issur to eat schould at least be respected on those mornings when one is not hungry or thirsty.

That's it.

There is no reason to react with so much hatred toward everyone who asks a question. Don't end up like Albert.

burech said...

It seems the Lubab have managed to convince themselves!
What else is new?
Yud tes Kislev is CHAG HACHAGIM.No less?
First you are a Lubab
Next
Maybe a yid
Oib ess loynt tzech
If you can raise$$$
"Rabbi" Cunin said it all according to Lubab 'we''ll show them that the Rebbe runs the world"
Chas vesholom
Afro lepumei


Heshy
I don't think your waistline neede the brownies by the "chag hachagim" seida.
I don't think ur kids needed to know that a yom tov "shebodu melibom" is the "chag hachagim either"

Chaim said...

but everybody drinks coffee everyday before davening, so let's not all get all high and mighty and say that only Lubavitchers eat or drink before davening. The shtikkel mezonos is what bothers you?!

burech said...

Btw
Not very long ago some yidden were in terrible danger in India.
Now they are not r'l
Yet the Tzig and his ana'sh continue their charade of "ahavas yisoel"
For shame

יואל'יש said...

ברוך:
דו שטיק דרעק וואס דו ביסט

דו ווייסט ווער עס האט זיך אויסגעדריקט אויף י"ט כסלו? נישט די לעצטע רבי

בעסער שווייג, ווייל אז נישט וועסטו באלד זעהן וואס פאר א גראבע טעות דו מאכסט, און ווי נאריש דו מאכסט אלע חרדים אויסזעהן

burech said...

Chaim
Nothing Lubab do "bothers " me
As long as they don't claim to be a Jewish religion.
As long as they claim to be yidden.....

chaimshmeel said...

I think thats a bit of a stretch. Burich didn't just come asking a question, he came with a series of stupid accusations and insults.....
Just look at his posts.

And reading all the other stuff, I have a question too.
Who appointed Rav Shach the 'godol hadoir' ? None of the Chassidishe look at him that way, and the moderne definately don't, so who ?
Lakewood and some of Brisk ?!!
'Godol Hador' my foot.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

He is saying that no one is hungry or thirsty everyday before davening. To that end, the issur to eat schould at least be respected on those mornings when one is not hungry or thirsty.
-------------------------
And an ignorant statement like that is obviously dead wrong. Did he do a survey ? Yesh v'yesh...

burech said...

יואליש בארוהיג דיך ביטע ,איך האב נישט קיין פראבלעם נישט מיט פראווען יט כסלו נאר וואס, ווען עס ווערט חג החגים באוויזט עס מיט וואסערע סארט "כאסידים" און "כאסידעס" מען האנדעלט

yitzchok i. d said...

burech said...

<< Btw
Not very long ago some yidden were in terrible danger in India.
Now they are not r'l
Yet the Tzig and his ana'sh continue their charade of "ahavas yisoel"
For shame

Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:38:00 PM>>

You vile creature. Which godol taught you this way.....ugh, I'm sick just reading that. Which lie can I tell for your hesped, that you knew how to learn, or that you had ahavas yisrool ?
Lech l'shulem.

יואל'יש said...

burech
מ' זעהט אויף דיר אז קיין טראפקעלע אמונת צדיקים איז ביי דיר נישט פערהאנען
דערפאר לאכסטו אפ פון אלץ וואס ביי דיר איז פרעמד

BURECH said...

Yoelish
Verr shtert dech fin pravven "hag hachaim"?
Dee goyim hobben kratzmech alz "hag hachagem"
in dee Lubavitcher huben "yat kislev"
'siz a freyeh velt, tee vus ir veelt, nor beeteh, reef ess nisht "YIDISHKAIT"

chaimshmeel said...

Burich has eminas tzadikim when he goes to atlantic city....what bothers him is that with so many shluchim everywhere, it's hard for him 'gein zindigen shtillerheit'....
Nebech

יואל'יש said...

ס'איז פונקט אזא אידישקייט ווי עסן צימעס ראש השנה און גאמבא'ס קוקוש קעיק

פליז

גיי אוועק און מאך נישט בזיונות פאר ערליכע אידן

BURECH said...

סאיז אינטערעסאנט צו באמערקען אז די איין איינציגע קרייז וואס האט זוכה געווען אז מען פרעגט נאך אירע שייכות צו אידשקייט איז "כאבאד.
i WONDER WHY??

כאבאד"...

Arthur said...

The Baal Hatanya said that the time that he spent in the misnagids house after he was freed was worse then the time he spent in prison.I never really understood that until today.What a waste of time.
By the way guys,I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions.You make accusations but when asked to prove it, all I get is silence.And I'm the liar?
As to Rav Shach being the Godol Hador,who says so? Chassidim fun alle kreizen?
NO.The MO? NO.Secular Jews?Never heard of him.You want to believe so?It's a free country but don't come here on this site and try to ram him down our throats.

יואל'יש said...

אזוי? איך קען נאך א קרייז

זיי הייסען מאדיארען

קענסט זיי אביסל? ס'דא עהרענסטע חששות אויף זיי

מאדיאר עמבער

בעטיאר

burech said...

Lubab are the only group who's yiddishkait is challenged.
Wonder why.
No secret that many yireim ushleimim will not eat schitas Lubab, mechashash a'z

burech said...

Yoelish,
You "accusing" Hungarians of not being Jewish?
Lomer heren fin dir kloor.
This may be the one thing that the Tzig and I share.
Shame on u yoelish.
u r probably a Lubab

יואל'יש said...

I'm not accusing, I'm just showing you how stupid accusations are.

זיי געזונט און טו תשובה

BURECH said...

The fact of the matter is that many people "joke" that " כאסידעס כאבאד"
is the "closest religion" to Yiddishkait.
I VONDER VY.

יואל'יש said...

and many people joke about Hugarians being Geyrim and Bnei Sh--dim..

I VONDER VY

burech said...

The real funny thing is that Lubab are convinced that everybody hates them and it's all for "no reason"
We don't hate you
We think that you need help
We think that things have gotten out of hand.
We think that some of the things you do are wonderful, while other things are very, very, questionable.
We don't think that your motivation is "bad" we think that you are "tinokois shenishbu bimeshigas"
We also know that many of you would get rid of all the craziness .If you could.But alas your hands are tied.
And Cunin talks for his ignorant, rear end.Hopefully, that is.

burech said...

יואליש! איך פלאץ שוין פון געלעכטער נו ,נו סאיז "חג החגים" !נישט פורים

burech said...

הירשל, איך זע אז דו האסט הנאה געהאט. אבער זאג נאר טאקע, וואס האסט דו ארויס געברענגט פון די טראגעדיע אין מומבאיי?

Ah Bochur said...

Tzig wrote: Natchalnik

show up here more often and maybe I'll care what you think. Like this it's tough to worry about losing your once monthly (and before that once in six months) comment.


are you referring to me? I comment more than once a day!

Arthur said...

Tzig
Geb nor ah kook vos ain kaker, Burech,ken onkaken mit ain amerateshe shtech. Ah zoiful sinas chinom.Nisht tzu gleibin.Er zol nor farshtein vos ah "gevaltige zchus" er hot gebracht of zich.Shimu Shomayim.Azoi vi ah bankes vos lozt nit up un er maint noch az er tut ah Mitzvah.

yankel said...

I think that, sadly, what all these cockroaches coming out of the woodwork have proven, is that the original post was 100% on the money is his appraisal of the situation.
Thank you, Hershel, for allowing a clear thinking individual to make some good points.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Ah Bochur

I was referring to UD.

Ah Bochur said...

So does that mean that you actually will take my opinion into account? What a thrill.

Anonymous said...

Yankel,

With all due respect, it is not possible to consider the snarky post as illustrative of clear thinking. There is so much deep harted, such convoluted thinking, hypocrisy, dishonesty and disinterest in fact or dialogue, that your comment can only suggest that you are brainwashed and refuse to examine the issues critically.

Albert, your hillarios post bemoaning sinas chinam is especially disgusting, considering the fact that you are the greatest anti-semite on this, or any other thread, I have ever read on a blog.

yitzchok i. d said...

First learn to think, and then you might try learning to spell. Actions speak louder than words. We see the result of the LR's teachings, i.e thousands of commited students helping hundreds of thousands of Jews around the world - even as we see the result of RS's teachings too- thousands of self-centered, frum as they pick & choose to be, hateful, insecure, do little & say a lot critics. Do you think anybody in the real world is fooled by your cheap shots ? Give it up.
As the opening post pointed out, THIS is the 'derech hamishna vhagemoro' - ahavas yisroel means doing, talk is cheap.

Dov Ber said...

My thinking and spelling is superior to yours--though I can see why it is necessary to for you focus on typos. After all, pushing all your hate aside, you don't have much of an argument.

As far as the balance of your crazed, hateful rhetoric is concerned, there is no factual basis for your distinction. The fact remains that tens of thousands are learned and frum because of Rav Shach. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for Chabad. Looking past the beard, they are full of hate and ignorance. If Ahavas Yisroel is about action, you and every other Lubavitcher on this thread have demonstrated complete failure toward achieving the klal gadol b'Torah.

moshe levi said...

Unfortunately, Dov Ber, looking past the spin, you haven't addressed a single issue put to you by all these posters. Speak clearly, was Rav Schach's hate of Chabad right or wrong?
Is their wine permissible or not?
Was Rav Schach a posek with the right to issue such a ruling ?


ps. Your grammar is terrible, if this is any indication of the general veracity of your arguments, you needn't bother answering this.

Arthur said...

"No secret that many yireim ushleimim will not eat schitas Lubab, mechashash a'z"
But of course when their stuck someplace in Yehupitz and need a place to daven,eat and sleep they'll even eat "schitas Lubab,mechsashsh a'z."
Arthur aka Albert

chaimshmeel said...

What about your disrespect for the Chazon Ish by ignoring what he demanded regarding beards....what greater disrespect to a godol like the Chazon Ish than the fact that if he walked into any 'Litvishe' yeshiva today, he would want to vomit ? (Those are his own words, not mine)
You people pick & choose who to 'honor', & how and when. Judaism and gedolim 'a la carte' !!

Arthur said...

"Albert, your hillarios post bemoaning sinas chinam is especially disgusting, considering the fact that you are the greatest anti-semite on this, or any other thread, I have ever read on a blog."
Coming from a ferd and cocker like you that's a compliment
By the way you still haven't answered the two questions I asked you.Still digging to find them? You can stop digging.Du host zich shoin lang zich bagroben with your pointless moronic posts.

Isaac Balbin said...

I believe I know who "Burech" is. His views are spread in many forums and are consistent. He uses different pseudonyms.

Burech, am I right? You live in the same city as I.

Will you have the guts to admit the truth if I am correct?

gevezener ponovizher said...

just a short note to burech ( i know he doesnt answer when he is caught in amaratzes - when i quoted the nitei gavriel where he lists many chassidim who dont maspid like gur, vizhnits,rizhin and explains that this minhag has a valid source )
if you look in the sefer veolehu lo yibol on r shlime zalmans psokim he berated a student that he farhert who said its osur to drink coffee with milk and sugar before dovening. r s"z said that if so many frume yidn do it it must have a moker and therefore some young pisher ( not his expression ) shouldnt dissmiss them as doing wrong.
he actually gave a source but i ll quote what he said if anyone is interested

Dov Ber said...

>>Unfortunately, Dov Ber, looking past the spin, you haven't addressed a single issue put to you by all these posters.

I have not spun anything. Second, there has not been a single issue which was addressed by anyone. I raised an issue, and all I have received in response was hate.

>>Speak clearly, was Rav Schach's hate of Chabad right or wrong?
Is their wine permissible or not?

Was the Rebbe's hate toward frum Jews outside of Chabad right or wrong?

>>Was Rav Schach a posek with the right to issue such a ruling ?

According to Rav Shlomo Zalman, yes.

AS for your attempts at avoiding substance, all you have are silly, useless ad hominom attacks to cover up your lack of substance and pnimius.

>>Coming from a ferd and cocker like you that's a compliment

I don't see what one has to do with another. You are the one who is evil. How a rasha can find a compliment in the fact that you are a sonei yisroel makes little sense.

>>y the way you still haven't answered the two questions I asked you.

Interesting. Tzig knows what I refer to. Others do as well. Your representation that you don't know what I am referring to demonstrates ignorance of basic Chabad history and thought or, more likely, dishonesty. Since this would not be the first time you lied, I am more inclined to assume the latter.

>>Still digging to find them? You can stop digging.Du host zich shoin lang zich bagroben with your pointless moronic posts.

So long as I am not a rasha writing the obscene things you have about kedoshim, I am happy. Asid li dinas din. But then again, you manifestly do not believe in din.

Arthur said...

"Interesting. Tzig knows what I refer to. Others do as well. Your representation that you don't know "what I am referring to demonstrates ignorance of basic Chabad history and thought or, more likely, dishonesty. Since this would not be the first time you lied, I am more inclined to assume the latter."
Since you give me the run around by telling me that I am dishonest and I am an "ignoramus" in Chabad history,that Tzig knows what your inane ramblings are all about and blah,blah,blah....Why don't YOU give me a lesson in Chabad history and answer ny two questions?
"So long as I am not a rasha writing the obscene things you have about kedoshim"
The only so called "kodosh" I wrote about is the Oihaiv Yishmoel meBnai Brak who was a narrow minded bigot and hater.If that makes me a liar and a rosho,what does that make you with your obscene statements about the Rebbe?

Dov Ber said...

"So long as I am not a rasha writing the obscene things you have about kedoshim"
>>The only so called "kodosh" I wrote about is the Oihaiv Yishmoel meBnai Brak who was a narrow minded bigot and hater.

This makes no sense.

>>If that makes me a liar and a rosho,what does that make you with your obscene statements about the Rebbe?

I never said the Rebbe is an ohev yishmoel, a bigot, worse than Hitler, or claimed that he is burning in Hell. YOU did all these about an undisputed giant in learning. Given your extremely narrow definition of obscenity, one can only assume that you knowingly made obscene comments about a giant and have continued to demonstrate no remorse for the same.

I refuse to be involved in teaching you basic Chabad history and knowledge. If you do not have this, you have no right to debate in the first place. The fact you have the gall to use personal insults against me without any knowledge of facts only augments the perverse nature of your heart.

Arthur said...

"I refuse to be involved in teaching you basic Chabad history and knowledge. If you do not have this, you have no right to debate in the first place. The fact you have the gall to use personal insults against me without any knowledge of facts only augments the perverse nature of your heart."
What a cop out.Pure unadulterated BS
and you claim I'm a liar.I'm finished with you.Before you post your BS on this blog or any other blog about Lubavitch I suggest that YOU learn the true history of Lubavitch and get your facts straight instead of posting your perverted dreams.I also suggest that you join Burechel and that other ferd anonymous and start learning the Aleph Bais.

Arthur said...

Oh.Pardon me.I forgot to mention that other "gaon otzum" Dov Ber.

Anonymous said...

The post about CI and beards reminds me of when R' Steinman spoke in LA for the "bnei yeshivos" 2 years ago. About 30 bochurim from the lubavitcher yeshiva were sent to the drasha. When they arrived, they were placed in the front rows together with some kids from a chassidishe mesivta. They didn't want R' Steinman to focus on the american litvishe bochurim with their hairstyles and shaven faces.

Dov Ber said...

>>What a cop out.Pure unadulterated BS

I think you are revealing a lot more about yourself than anything else with this kind of thinking.

>>and you claim I'm a liar.


YOu ARE a liar.

>>I'm finished with you.Before you post your BS on this blog or any other blog about Lubavitch I suggest that YOU learn the true history of Lubavitch and get your facts straight instead of posting your perverted dreams.

Erm, YOU are the one who demonstrated a lack of familiarity with Lubavitch history. I am obviously more at home with it than you are.

>>I also suggest that you join Burechel and that other ferd anonymous and start learning the Aleph Bais.


Now you are suggesting that I canno tread Hebrew? What for? CLearly that's not the issue. You have to manage your anger better and learn to be more gracefully accept defeat.

Arthur said...

Hirshel
Are the "three stooges" really gone? B"H.This Dov Ber is a pompous drei kup.Er enfert niht tzum zach.Ah hoiler idyot.

Anonymous said...

Albert,

Its a shud that this is the best you can do. Oy l'cha byom hadin.

Arthur said...

"Albert,

Its a shud that this is the best you can do. Oy l'cha byom hadin."
Same to you and many more.

Arthur said...

"Oy l'cha byom hadin."
Vechol hamevorech Yisborech

Anonymous said...

>>Vechol hamevorech Yisborech

ALl the more reason why you are in such deep trouble.

Isaac Balbin said...

Burech, am I right? You live in Melbourne, Australia?

burech said...

Isaac Balbin,
You are not right.
Not only do I not live in Australia I've never been there.
But let me ask you a question:
Why would you think that just because someone in Australia may have similar ideas It has to be me?Nothing that I've said is radical.
Most *thinking* frum Jews agree with what I have to say.The Lubab are used to all these questions, already.
I understand that you learned in a Lubab school, but were not "zocheh" to become a real "chosid"
So do I need to explain what is so off with them? Is deifying the Rebbe not enough.
Were Cunins words "Now we''ll show them that the Rebbe runs the world" unusual?This is quite classic Lubab speak.

mike reicher said...

Isaac,
Why would you care whether this idiot is from Australia or not? Unfortunately, as he says, there are scum like him in many places. He came on here ostensibly 'wondering' why Lub. don't make hespedim? Unable to control his filthy shmaltz from bubbling over, he promptly launched into a rambling attack on anything to do with Lub. that he 'didn't understand'. Note that he cannot acknowledge that the issues he spewed forth about, hesped, tefilla, sukka etc, were answered by a number of posters, as well as in earlier literature. This is clearly a miserable thing, who lobs criticism and uncouth insults at others to deflect from his own shortcomings. He may well be the misery from Melbourne (P)you suspect, and obviously, like any intellectual cripple, you Couldn't expect him to admit it?! You see, 'Burech' probably knows he's sick, even if he can't seek treatment. Have pity on his family - they have to live with him, while we can just laugh.

Isaac Balbin said...

Burech, you sound so much like a Burech over here, it's uncanny.

You're right, I am not a Chosid. However, I know and have seen enough Chabadniks to know that the Lulus don't run the show. There are 3 Lulus here that stand on the corner and jump up and down with yellow flags like (lehavdil) Hare Krishnas. They aren't at all representative.

The problem with your views is that you are deluding yourself if you think you are doing any good---and I'm being kind here assuming you have noble intentions.

If you want to do good, befriend them. Your sputum isn't pretty.