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Something must've happened to the Hungarian mind somewhere along the way, because they've totally lost it. How nice of them to - in their own mind- hold off on further criticism until maybe NEXT week! Can we ever expect for any sort of achdus with this being the approach and mentality among some of our brothers and sisters in Williamsburg?!
83 comments:
After you've cleaned yourself up from the vomiting caused by this nausiating article of islamic propoganda, please read the following excellent article by the radical leftist Bradley Burston in Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1042960.html
Same facts, totally different conclusion.
Next editorial from Der YiD: "Dateline Tehran".
U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-A-B-L-E!!!!!!!!
They can't be that retarded, can they?!
I mean, they've convinced themselves that Hakodosh R' Teitelbaum HY"D just stopped there 'a few short moments' to 'chap a mincha'. And they call Der Tzionim liars and delusional??
Do you think the rank and file believe this stuff? Could be.
I perfer to believe that most of them, aside from the Far'Yukelta Na'arunim, buy this rag to occupy themselves in the throne room.
What's incredible is, what was the purpose of the putdown. You wanna shoot at the Tzionim, Nu the usual targets. But why at this time to put down the people he died with??
Reminds me of the story of the Beis Yisroel..on the eve of the six day war a gerrer chassid had to travel to America...he asked the Rebbe if he should at this moment, there is a Tummel that the situation is the herald of Mashiach and he didn't want to get caught, Pinkt Yetz, outside Eretz Yisroel. The BY told him not to worry, travel, there are enough good Jews working overtime to make sure he doesn't come yet!
It was only a matter of time before this whole issue got addressed by commentators.
But look at the positive, the author says that we don't have to agree with Chabad to daven with them and participate with them. I think that's a step in the right direction.
Translation please???
א ראי' פון דער איד?
אפשר ברענסטו קאפיס פונעם "פנים חדשות אויך?
אפשר הייבסטו אויף יעדן שמוציגען פאשקעוויל אין די גאס און ביסט מפלפלך דעראין?
פעך
Is Satmar still part of Yahadus Hacharidies?
Does achdus mean that you can criticize others but others shall not criticize you
or achdus means that you tolerate others while the differ with you?
These whole lie as if all of Klal Yisroel are on the same page with there lunacy is a farce, that they recycle on a daily basis, no independent Godol Beyisroel let it be Grandchildren of the Chasam Sofer or Grandchildren of the Sanzer Rov had there view regarding the function of Israel after its inception, In the US he was a outcast in his views besides 2 rabonim the Shoproner and the Krasner they were considered 2nd tier rabonim with extreme views, obviously by us in Williamsburg everybody was a GOY, starting by Reb Moshe and ending by Mendel Kasher,By today the official line is more liberal but a hard core rov as Fulop will never quote Reb Moshe and for sure not Reb S Z Auerbach, Hey Guys I born at night but not yesterday...
Anon.
Achdus means thatBesho Shemaiso Mital Lefonov you shut up.
Achdus means that you dont proseltyse Sinas Chinom
They question in the editorial the real reason of the chabad house Hachnosas Orchim, How about I question the Baal Veyoel Moshes reasons of giving? there were many Rabonim with no affiliation to the Mizrachi etc.. they even wore flat Biber hats who lived in the same dalat amos as him that he never by accident sent them Misloach Monos
Hak Nisht A Chainik
Anonymous 8:06
If I'd have a prize for comment of the week I'd give it to you. The shalach monos vort is EYZEN!!!
Please ask the editorial board, Who gave the right for Reb Yoelish to travel thru Israel with the Zionist police on the Zionist Train on a pure publicity tour?
Kastner flight we can forgive him, he had all the rights to use it since he dreamt of his mother ...
But the zionist train... I assume he was forced by gunpoint..
Anon.
Unfortunatly I can not publicise the names(Mipnei Shasho Mesachkes Lohem) but trust me I know that town well
Bpunbound
If we talk about the rag Der Yid let me remind you of a other Levya and the coverage in that "shundbletel"
When the Beis Yisroel passed away the chariedi world was in awe shocked by the sudeness of a petira of a powerfull manhig and tzadik. The editor of Der Yid then was Chaim Moshe Stauber, being a Antwerpener he knew the world outside of Bedford and Rodney,He wrote beautiful with Hispalous on the Beis Yisroel as the "Rabon Shel Yisroel of polish Jewery" .After that he was maligned and harrassed in Wilie he lost the job, since his sin was twofold there is only 1 Rabon Shel Benai Hagoleh and the Gerer was a ardent Zionist.
so again achdes means enjoy when others are being criticized but kvetch with the magic word ACHDUS when you are being criticized, EYZEN!!!
ahavas yisroel means you cant be second guessed but you can poke fun of every frum yid that's not part of your clan Eyzen!!!
anonymous 9:09
I didn't mean for this to become a bash of Satmar, epecially not the Divrei Yoel zt"l, I just enjoyed the vort.
The point of achdus is well-understood, we can agree to disagree, but every thing has a time and place.
Anon 9:09
please explain yourself better,
Again, Achdus means you just stop the train of hate,
נאכן לייענן די עדיטאריעל אין דער איד, האב איך איין ווארט דערויף
עס שטינקט פון קאפ. אז מען האט א רבין א וועלטס עם הארץ האט מען חסידים וואס האבן פיינט תלמידי חכמים
פוי, א גרויל צו זעהן וואס איז געשעהן מיט די צעדרייטע כת
I read the editorial careful, and I am as far as can be from the shita of Satmar (never mind their -hopefully - past relationship to Chabad), but in all honesty I don't see the offensiveness that everyone is screaming about. Precisely what was wrong with it? The critique of how the state treated the kodosh Teitelbaum is 100% correct. And frankly I found much of the levaya in Kfar Chabad offensive, the MC with his stupid intros (horav hago'on horav hachossid..), having to call up so many people to say tehilim, and then to speak (Shemtov, Krinsky and Lau had no business speaking there and actually didn't say anything worthwhile, noch a mazal that Aronow was not given his "due" honor). It was a media-festival.
Please point out to me the specifics that you object to in the editorial.
Chabadnik
your English leaves me suspicious of your Chabad credentials, but I'll answer anyway:
1) you can have all the taynes in the world, but the question is when and where to voice them. You also seem to have conveniently have left out the poking fun and vicious attack on the motive of every Beis Chabad in the world! to Der Yid the Holtzbergs ran a restaurant whose goal it was solely to chap people to Chabad!!!!!!! nothing more....
עפרא לפומהן!!!!!!
Chabadnik for emes
If you are talking of Levayes outside of Chabad it is the norm that whoever has some minor connection to the Niftar speaks,So I dont see whats the problem with having Shemtov and Krinsky unless you have something personal agaist these gentlemen, but what does that legimetise the vicous editorial in that newspaper. I heard from friends that the Der Yid was puting on hold its anti Isreal rethoric in the week of the 6 day war.It looks like the new editorial board is more pope then the old pope, or they have to proof some point in their inner turf war.
Probably right that they're (Der Yid) not worth wasting time over, but....
this from the Volover Ruv, upon Nichum Availim visit from Groner and Krinsky:
"Chabad's work with the assimilated is well known," Teitelbaum's grieving father told the two rabbis in yiddish. "What is now known is the help you give to the religious people who travel in the world and you are their only home."
COL Live
The more you read this idiotic editorial,they stun you more with there absolute fanatic hate, They claim as a fact that the Israeli govt. is to blame for the Massacare in Bombay, They probably adhere the theory that 911 was a inside job.
Is the war over Kashmir also some zionist conspiracy? If the Protocols of Zion would have been written today they would qualify to be on the editorial board, it is a sad since by many people they are taken seriously.
"to Der Yid the Holtzbergs ran a restaurant whose goal it was solely to chap people to Chabad!!!!!!! nothing more....
עפרא לפומהן!!!!!!"
Tziggy, I see that though Der Yid did not write this explicitly, you "chapped" what they meant!
But wait a sec:Aren't you the one who posted some time ago about about "gitteh sechoireh" that can be "chapped" from the "not yet" Lubavitch-but-frum-crowd??Are you making yourself "tamavat"?Do you not think that Lubavitch is heavily involved in trying to "chap" people to Lubavitch?You yourself were "chapped"!
Haklal:Nobody, not even Der Yid thinks that the "only" reason for opening a Chabad House is to get people to become Lubavitch, but it is a very important component.It's called "hafotzas hama'ayonos".
Why do you think that in the Litvishe Yeshiva I attended there was an "underground"Tanya shiur organized by a Lubavitcher, professional "chapper"??Have you ever heard of an "underground" shiur in Vayoel Moshe? In "Nefesh Hachaim"??
Rabbi Holtzberg actually seemed to be a genuinely good guy, a real baal chesed, without any cheshboines.Maybe that's why he had such a real influence on people, why he is so fondly remembered by people from all walks of life.
I remember a story told about the Steipler (though I cannot vouch for it).As you know Novardok similar to Chabad, were looking to spread their "shitta", which, agav in pre war Poland and Russia, they were very successful with, in fact apparently the Lubavitch "shlichus" idea originates with Novardok.Anyway, the Steipler is sent one year to the Mir for a short "shlichus" to spread the Mussar way.The Steipler has very little shayches to talking to people and convincing them,instead he just did what he always did back in Novardok, namely learning almost non stop for three days...That year, a couple of the Mirrer went to Novardok.
i second ruvy, in asking tzig to clear up the differance between his writing the need to chap arein frishe schoira for lubavitch, and what der yid wrote.
also please answer if all the speeches there in kfar chabad by govmt ministers werent a bit gross. they are idolized by chabadskers including hershel, would such a thing ever happen by the rashab or rayatz?
Mr Achdus,you are turning people away from lubavitch nebech, by writing Afrei Lpuma, you trying to tell me that the INTENT of every lubavitcher is not to make other people lubavitchers when everyone knows by now,that it has be denied But Boifen Hamekubel you blew it if you hadn't written such harsh words i would have thought that everything lubavitch does is not Legarmei just Lshem Shmaim now i am starting to think maybe its not lshem shmaiyim ,thats why collaborating with Zionists reform Conservative and all Asure Yuchsin is so practical
you turning people away from..... go back to boot camp
Fantastic Video
http://dogood.aish.com/
1) what does the fact that I said that there's a need to spread chassidus have to with a Bais Chabad in India?
2) why is there a need to question the goals of a Beis Chabad in a remoe country after its directors were killed?
Is this sooo difficult to see?!
Can hershel answer?
nobody "idolized" anybody. Many people - Lubavitchers - expressed surprise that they were asked to speak. That is beside the point. THIS WEEK is not the time for Der Yid to dance on their graves. I think you can find it in your mind to understand that.
Hirshel,
I wanted to comment on something mentioned on a previous post.. And that is the discomfort experienced by some when hearing certain 'oishprach'in' that Chassidim will toss around...in this particular case the term 'hisgalus' was causing some consternation....in the past we've heard condemnation of the term Atzmus U'Mahus V'Chuli...truth be told, mention Atzilus or A"K in certain circles and your met with uncomfortable glances.
What has always amazed me about such reactions is that the people so put off by these terms, usually have no clue of the relevance or even the definition of these concepts. What's more, many of these same people consider themselves intelligent, learned people (as they well may be! indeed Talmidei Chachamin U'Bnei Torah!).
Now how does one, intelligently, enter into a debate regarding a topic he has so little information about, with which, in fact, he is not very familiar (please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my impression).
Why be uncomfotable about 'hisgalus' if you don't know what it means? Can you really judge if A"UM etc. is worthy of you ire, if you haven't even got a clue of who 'dat be! (Please, this post is not meant to invite a debate of the concepts, rather to encourage understanding and unity. Lets call in Chareidi Ecumenisism)
Well if this stuff REALLY bothers you, and it REALLY makes you uncomfortable, from the point of view of effecting your relationship with another Jew, wouldn't it behoove you to at least define the terms of the debate. I mean, where talking about intelligent people here, right. Visitors to Hirshel's blog, yes? Nisht Stam Gas Ying'lach.
So may I suggest actually picking up a Sefer to at least educate and infrom yourself. NOT CHAS VESHOLAM to learn about this topic. Rachmana Litzlon, no no no. Not learning. But as an academic excercise, to at least understand the 'vernacular' of your Rei'Acha.
PS - If you want, mir vet shtellen shomrim, if you wish, to make sure you don't get 'Farchapped'. But what's required here is some independant thought and consideration.
What do you say, are you up to that?
Sory, but even when re-reading the editorial I still don't see there what you see. Maybe each one sees a mirror-reflection of himself.The criticism of the state insisting to cover with Israeli flags is 100%justified. Even the author of those horrible words in Yedi'ot Acharanot admitted as much when informed of the facts, and now apologizes for them.
And, no, I have nothing against Shemtov, Krinsky or Lau. Kotlarsky took care of speaking on behalf of Chabad, the shluchim, and the officials who had a connection with the kedoshim. And of course the family-members - including Grossman. Beyond that it is kol hamossif gore'a!
I understand why they had to let the rabonim roshiyim speak. Also re Peres, after all he came and he is the President etc.
But the division of Tehilim over all those rabonim - for what if not for ...? And Lau? He is generally an excellent speaker (though here he bombed out, and as far as I fel so did Ashkenazy), but had no connection here (even if he is a true friend of Chabad). It extended the levaya for an inexcusable extensive time, never mind all the pious references that in Chabad there are no hespedim etc. And as I said earlier, the ridiculous intros by the MC - they made me cringe and embarrassed.
Yes, all in all, it was a moving experience etc., but blatantly choreographed as PR which to my mind diminished rather than enhanced. You see things different? So be it, al ta'am verei'ach ein lehitvake'ach. Having been raised with notion of "pnimyut counts" I was disturbed by the blatant chitzoniyut.
I wish to voice my take on the entire (non)issue. The Satmar Rebbe ztz"l had his shitta, which because it was not so popular and pleasing to the general oilam hayahadus, he and his adherents were and are being relegated to2nd tier rabbonim. That's also achdus for you. But my point is this, even though the rebbe had his opinion and mehalech, it was strictly bederech klall. He was vehemently against zionism, but not against otherwise erliche individuals who in one way or another adhered to zionism. Today, Satmar is divided among the believers of "what was preached then was relevant at that time - and now we need to preach what is relevant for now". The "yid" group is trying to discredit the "other" group by their senseless and tasteless holier than thou attitude. They themselves don't for one minute believe or practice what they preach (including even fulop). Just like zionism, this misplaced kanuoss, has become a substitute for torah and mitzvos. Just bash tziyonim and then everything else will fall in place. Now chaba"d is evil as well, because since they don't hate the tziyonim like a true chassidisher yid should, so by extension, they also deserve to be hated. I have been the beneficiary of much of the chesed and love emanating from these chaba"d houses, and have even - at my own behest - been exposed to some of the toras chaba"d, and all I acn say is, that nothing can be more beatiful. The problem with toras chaba"d is that it is too deep, and makes you think, and to these people who lack the capacity of doing it, the best thing is to just bash it. But, never for one minute, was I made to feel that I need to do it, bat rather that I wanted tp do it. To say that the botei chaba"d are out there to chapp people, is really a compliment. Avrohom ovinu was also doling out hospitality indiscriminately, and also trying to chapp arein people. If you manage to chapp arein someone to have a better understanding of what it means to be a yid, by exposing them to a sicha of the rebbe ztz"l, does not mean arein gechappt to cahba"d, but rather arein gechappt to HaKB"H.
you may have been for pnimiyus, but they forgot the seychel part....
I have said countless times here that I disliked how the levaya was conducted, but Der Yid didn't complain about the fact that they divided Tehillim or were busy with kibbudim, they just attacked the fact that it was "על טהרת ההעברעאיש" and that Peres and Barak spoke, not Krinsky and Shemtov. They also knock the Beis Chabad in general and question the motives. They also lied about the fact that Teitelbaum would frequent the Beis Chabad, es past zei nisht that a Rabbonishe Satmarer like him should stay there. They made it sound that he was going to a McDonald's rest stop on the Thruway and bought a bottle of water and was caught in the crossfire.......
So now I'm beginning to question if you bichlal understood what they wrote there................
Just one more comment re the YN in the earlier post: Kamenetsky's would-be "poem". There I could not help sense an "undercurrent" which turned me off completely. Empty slogans, meaningless platitudes, with a gratuitous reference of Chabad smuggled in to sound inclusive - but in a way that I have no doubt that the morning after it's back to "normal" and normative "hashkafah tehorah".
I see there's a need to translate the editorial. At least parts of it. Maybe I can find time to do it soon.
the bizayon hameis of the kedoshim by the zionist scum is revolting. i am a hard core lakewood snag, but draping a flag on the mitos hakedoshim and having all those politicians speak was a total disgrace. i too shed tears for rav holtzberg and his rebetzin hy"d.
shever al shever...
"So now I'm beginning to question if you bichlal understood what they wrote there................"
Yes and no. I saw that and realized that they "diminished" the work of the Chabad-House. But let's not forget the source, where this came from and how they could not suddenly demonstrate being "enraptured by Chabad". After all, they do have their agenda. But then again, was the YN, including PL, any better? There also bare references to Chabad with sanctimonious platitudes about achdus etc. - in the face of a world at large gripped by the agony of the event.
The proof of the pudding is the pursuit of achdus, of recognizing and propagating that achdus even the morning after, and frankly I am not holding my breath (nor should any one else). If I should (hopefully) be proven wrong, I will gladly apologize and retract my words. So I don't see much difference between the Yid and YN. The Yid had essentially an issue with what happened to R. Teitelbaum Hy"d, and as said they were 100% right. The Chabad references were totally incidental as they simply could not avoid them, and thus had to keep them to a "circumscribed" minimum. While I do not accept or defend Satmar-attitude, and reject it categorically, at least I understand where they are come from and do not see it as utterly crude and disgraceful the way you and some others do.
I'll take that as a "NO." You didn't get the gist of the article and the seething attack on Chabad.
The flag issue could be addressed elsewhere, as did Der Blatt, not in the editorial, and not to attack the Niftorim that they DIDN'T stand up to the Tziyonim.
Der Yid may be the Zali paper, but surely that's not enough to explain it. My limited experience with the Zalis has not been nearly so negative, and my general impression was that the real kanous and thuggery is on the Aroni side. Certainly I've never come across the viciousness of this editorial.
Ruvy
FYI, There is Shiurim in Israeli Yeshivas in sefer Vayoel Moshe. So far its not really successful they are trying to recruit kids from parents that are far from into the Satmar shita, I was in the MIR and I saw it, the guy is coming to Williamsburg and shnurr for that,
Hardcore lakewood snags
Did you digest already the flag on the most prestigious Misnagdisher yeshiva (till 2 yrs. ago) on the Yom Hamar Vhanimhor 5 Iyar, they Rachmono litzlon dont cover the bodies they cover the Tora Hakdoshe..
It doesn't matter what the reason of the existence of the Chabad House, But if they in there satmar brain think there is some negative reason, then why write a derogatory cynical editorial on the day when blood of this Kedoshim HASN'T DRIED are you all that numb? you don't get it.Look in the Rema in Hilchos Aveilos even a Mumar gets a din Kodosh if he was killed by a goy. there anti zionisim philosophy have made them in to political hacks with no relation to Hashen Vetoirosoi,Yes, it is Afrei Lepimo
Anon 11;18
Its a comment of a level headed Kluger Yid. Truth said, the editorial board writes uglier on Reb Aron the Satmar Rebbe,who is not under the influence of the FLAG, but is chapping people thru his Shiurie Torah etc..
The editorial is quoted as "poking fun and vicious attack on the motive of every Beis Chabad in the world!"
It would be fair to request a direct pointing to such statement. That is not the only falsehood in the quotations, but one of the most encompassing.
Generally, the more you critisize the editorial, the more you are confirming it purpose and the need for satmar to publish it NOW. בית חב"ד stands for קירוב רחוקים and similar purposes, including a close relationship with the state of israel. Satmar, as everyone knows, is in another shita. That is all the edittorial points out. It does it, like or not, with all due restraint — not to mention respect.
I guess we need to look up the word respect in the dictionary, because we must not have the same definition....
I will agree with you that they have got their timing wrong and their comments are not appropriate while the Shivah is not even over. But I share some of their feelings despite not belonging to Satmar.
I have been into Lubavitch centres and been comforted by their presence in far flung places. But at the same time I have felt deeply disturbed by the 'Yechi's on the Oroyn Koydesh and photos and material which borders on iconography and idol worship. It feels like the literature of Jews for Jesus, written in a familiar tongue but totally alien in its content and spirit.
The impression I have got from my few visits is that the Lubavitch centres around the globe and away from established Jewish centres are meshichistish inclined if not actively promoting it.
I am sure that if I am in a remote area while I would avoid them if I could I would make use of their facilities and enjoy their hospitality if I had nowhere else to go, but that is not to ignore the revulsion I feel while doing so. It is time Lubavitch got to grips with their problem and stop pretending it is a small lunatic fringe and blaming others for highlighting this very unpalatable side.
Tzig:
Your last comment says: "I guess we need to look up the word respect in the dictionary, because we must not have the same definition..."
First we need to look up where you found the following quote in the editorial:
"the poking fun and vicious attack on the motive of every Beis Chabad in the world! to Der Yid the Holtzbergs ran a restaurant whose goal it was solely to chap people to Chabad!!!!!!! nothing more..."
You are nothing but a fabricator of hate, produced in your own wild imagination. The last thing you need to look up now is respect.
Anon;3;12
Satmar in the last 10 years stands for a simple turfwar with no Torah stopping them from Mairim Yad Betoras hashem on a big scale,In the USA and in Israeli Begatz, Chilul shabos talking to the media on Shabbos in front of Rodney st shul with no shame, Chilul Kevorim in their own cemeteries Chilul Botie Keniesios, Desecrating Tefilin of people that belong to the other brother,etc.. what gives them the chutzpa to be a Mochiach Beshar. There rabonim are all participating in this Haromas Yad Betoras Moshe. They act like the Rabinate in israel that are part of the government (obviously Leshitosom)
Right. Another commenter who doesn't read Yiddish who's shooting his mouth off.....
Polemcist
if you think that the Yechi is Avoda Zra then why didnt you go to a Baptist Church or I would recommend a Je.. Witness since they have no crosses in their halls.
הערשל:
איך בין דער זעלביקער מאַן וואָס האָט פריער צוויי מאָל דיר געענטפערט, נאָר צו באַשטעטיקן אַז איך לייען און שרייב דווקא יאָ יידיש.
אויב איך וואָלט געהאַט די מעגליכקייט צו זיין אמתדיק אַנאָנים, וואָלט איך בעסער געקאָנט איבערצייגן דיר און די אַנדערע שותפים דאָ, ווי נישט ריכטיק דיין באַמערקונג איז.
מיין נישט אַז בלויז דו ביסט אַ יידיש-ענגליש לייענער און שרייבער...
someone please clarify who were the first tier Rabbonim in Willy that didn't hold with the Vayoel Moshe shitta.
I don't care about the editorial in Der Yid, I will only tell you one thing, tell for the editors that instead of being busy with Lubavitch's connections to the Tziyoinam, they (the Zaly's) should GO OUT FROM THE BGA"TZ - Israely court in Bnei Brak!!!!!!!!!!!!
the should start following the Daas Torah of the Rabunam who asked them so many time to go out from them!!!
According to the Satmar Rabbe Ztz"l in his Seifer V'Yoel Moshe (they're so for this name) "its one of the biggest Aveiras to go to the Bga"tz!!!!!"
then they can restart being busy with Kanuas. till then they should stay out of saying what the Satmar Rabbe wanted & his Shitah!!!
Tzig,
It's not very clear what got you so riled up about this editorial, but it'll do good to clear some stuff up, including some of the clear libel here.
What he wrote about Batei Chabad, in two sentences, is that around the world and especially in places without any Jewish presence, they are _the_ address for things like davenen with a minyan etc. And even though it is clear for everyone that it's not the goal for which said Batei Chabad were set up and are operated, and the real goals are clearly documented within the Beis-Chabads, it is a fact that even those who aren't affiliated with Chabad or share their goals, find themselves an achsaniya there. Today is certainly not the day to delve deep into this subject.
The author is actually implying the very opposite of your paranoia. They're saying that they were _not_ set up to serve or chap arayn the occasional heimishe traveler; a sane person reads this and understands that the real goal implied here by the author is serving the local communities rather then tourists. So whatever got your blood boiling is mostly in your head and contradicts the words and implications of the editorial.
Secondly, R' Leibish HY"D is, for all intents and purposes, a Kanoi. Basically, a Bneshek with strong affinity to Satmar. One of those people whom the locals came to diss with such passion and to harass on this blog at many occasions.
He renounced his Israeli citizenship as soon as it was legally possible, and the general spirit of kanues was maintained more so then with your regular Satmarer balabus. Even more so with his marriage into Toldos A"Y (back when it was all Toldos Aharon headed by the old Rebbe - RA"Y Kohn zy"a). Back then, Toldos Aharon was probably the strongest, most respected and most visible of all the actively non-Zionist groups.
They never marched with the Arabs or affiliate themselves in any form or fashion with the terrorist groups. Yet, they were vehemently anti-Zionist, not accepting any funds or partaking in the elections. There is a lot of substance to them besides politics, amongst it a strong affection to Chabad seforim - Lubavich or Strashelye. But still, vocal opposition to Zionism was a strong pillar of the pre-split T"A. They subscribe to every bit of what Vayoel Moshe has to say on the subject.
This is the background of R' Leibush's HY"D short 37 years. It is a sad but unequivocal embodiment of Vayoel Moshe's unheeded cry - that everyone will suffer and everyone will be a target for many years to come because of what Zionists did who knows when.
So an attempt to use this tragic occasion as a platform for their agenda would've been rightfully seen as a cynical blasphemy and an attack on everything R' Leibish HY"D stood for. It is not news by any stretch that those who subscribe to Vayoel Moshe's understanding put the blame for all shedding of Jewish blood by terrorists on the Zionist leadership. That's what Der Yid is explaining here, and that's what R' Leibish HY"D himself would've agreed with wholly. You may or may not disagree, but the noise is both artificial and stale.
He was tortured and murdered thousands of miles away from home while trying to make sure that the food we eat is kosher. His father's hechsher is a common ground for gratuitous attacks, both here and elsewhere, by bored and sad people posting anonymously from comfort of their attic. Next time someone bites into that sandwich, give it a moment to think what it took ...
And back to step 1 - for any native reader, this editorial didn't have a single bad word about Chabad effort worldwide; there is nothing but praise and gratitude, if subtle.
UD
I previously posted that Der Yid implied but did not write outright what Tzig claimed and he was smart enough to pick up their real meaning.
Anyway, you are being cute, but a careful rereading of the the WHOLE paragraph in context will tell you that Tziggy is right.They themselves explain that now is not the time to get into the real reasons for setting up Chabad Houses (referring to not being nasty at such a tragic time)and a remark whether the fact that heimishe yidden do in fact enter these remote Chabad Houses is bedieved or lechatchilla, clearly show that Der Yid did not mean to be complimentary.
I'm no fan of this or the other faction of Satmar, but I do agree that a vital component of Lubavitch is to make other Jews Lubavitch.This provides two clear benefits, at least in the Lubavitchers eyes,A)Hafotzas Hamaayonos B)Keeps their own Lubavitchers at "home" i.e if you work so hard to bring in new people there is a group pride that makes it more difficult to get up and leave Lubavitch to a different plaCE.
UD
I previously posted that Der Yid implied but did not write outright what Tzig claimed and he was smart enough to pick up their real meaning.
Anyway, you are being cute, but a careful rereading of the the WHOLE paragraph in context will tell you that Tziggy is right.They themselves explain that now is not the time to get into the real reasons for setting up Chabad Houses (referring to not being nasty at such a tragic time)and a remark whether the fact that heimishe yidden do in fact enter these remote Chabad Houses is bedieved or lechatchilla, clearly show that Der Yid did not mean to be complimentary.
I'm no fan of this or the other faction of Satmar, but I do agree that a vital component of Lubavitch is to make other Jews Lubavitch.This provides two clear benefits, at least in the Lubavitchers eyes,A)Hafotzas Hamaayonos B)Keeps their own Lubavitchers at "home" i.e if you work so hard to bring in new people there is a group pride that makes it more difficult to get up and leave Lubavitch to a different plaCE.
UD
"real goals are documented within the beis chabad" What kind of document do the Chabad houses have, thes looks like some kind of conspiracy, some blood libel, is there some secret that the shluchim carry for them selves
Anon from 3am : if you suffer from acute paranoia, you'll find enough gunk to scrape from between the lines in any publication. The author of the editorial was trying to tell you that the places are clearly not set up to serve heimishe tourists from Brooklyn, but to address the needs of locals and stray Israelis.
rUVY: "lekatchila or bedieved" refers to to old party line of der yid et al that strongly disapproves of heimishe globe-trotting. Most of those cases are seen as "bedieved", and there may be a legitimate ta'ana that many beis chabads in the middle of nowhere (not necessarily this one) are takeh a bedieved setup compared to one's native shtibl. Some of their readership may believe that the presence of chabad houses provides legitimacy to people "going places" they shouldn't be and whathaveyou. The author of the editorial is certainly aware of this and other modern lines of critique (vs. the stale and irrelevant arguments from the 70s-80s of proselytizing and whatnot), and he appropriately notes that whatever the ta'ana. now is not the time.
Arye Leib Glantz, the mouthpiece of all Willy mosdos, was specifically appreciative of the Holtzbergs', HY"D, willingness to go an extra mile to accommodate their guests.
“They made sure not only to have Chabad shchita [certification for kosher meat] but to have other shchita as well, so that others could be accommodated,” said Leib Glanz, a rabbi and community leader in one of Brooklyn’s Satmar enclaves, who had spoken with Teitelbaum’s father.
There wasn't a single bad word to hear from the entire heimishe camp about Chabad. And it is notable, given how nasty, vicious and tactless Israeli chareidim can get ...
UD:
The writer of the Der Yid editorial and Reb Leibush hy"d were related by marriage (anyone familiar with the family of Toldos Aharon/Toldos Avruhom Yitzchok will attest to that). I am related to both. I have been asked by the writer to convey to you his profound thanks for the PROPER translation of his words.
Hirschl opened this discussion with a misguided intent and a purposeful wrong interpretation, and resolved to stick to it no matter what. When asked for specifics and a pointer to the alleged quotes, he either directed us to a dictionary (just an English dictionary, not even a Yiddish-English one) or decreed that anyone reading reading into the editorial something other than his twisted interpretation just dosn't read Yiddish.
Hirschl, we read אידיש as well as you, and we have also noted your statements on the subject in other forums. Combined, they say something about your אהבת ישראל in these difficult times.
Thanks again UD.
I have just picked up the motto fo this blog (at the very end of the page):
"אלע שונאים זאלען פלאצען"...
This, I assume, is what the current didcussion is all about.
About the "documentation" that the editorial alludes to: Does every בית חב"ד have a ליקוטי שיחות? Does every בית חב"ד have literature about the Lubavitch מבצעים?
Furthermore: בתי חב"ד are created and maintained not to draw the ultra hassidic crowd such as הקדוש רבי לייבוש הי"ד, as they would in any circumstances stick to the ultimate in שמירת התורה והמצוות even in places like mumbay. בתי חב"ד are intended for another crowd and ALSO accomodate guest such as רבי לייבוש טייטלבוים זצ"ל.
We are not going to be drawn into a debate about the reasons or the merit of opposition to the above, but it is no secret that satmat בכלל and Der Yid בפרט have been opposed to both and much more of Lubavitch, including מבצע אהבת ישראל as implemented by Lubavitch.
What was wrong in pointing this out, דווקא now when people like tzig seek to sow confusion under the guise of אחדות?
Above all, what indeed did tzig want us, Yiddish readers, to read into the editorial?
righhhhht
so since the editorial writer (tell those who don't know who he is...) and the TAY Rebbe are related.... (like the 2 Teitelbaum brothers, right? ) therefore it MUST be a positive editorial!
I find it interesting that no other publication had to write their editorial in code so that only true geniuses like UD and others can understand the true praise hidden in their holy words....
Tzig
You can jump like a real tzig or קאָזע, but you have not been able to show us where you have picked up your coded reading ("the true praise hidden in their holy words") into that piece. Neither have you been able to substantiate your אהבת ישראל (the hate you are spreading) on your baseless assumptions.
Why don't you simply applogize, and let yourשונאים פּלאַצן on a better founded and more substantiated story?
apologize for what?
prove me wrong first, then we talk apology.
Tell the readers who writes the editorial, and despite the fact that it's published in a newspaper is too chicken to put his name on it. At least Sender Deutsch made up a phony name!
Hirshel has no problem with these Idiots in Der Yid, They should go on and on with their trademark philosophy of Sinas Yisroel on every Jew that walks, from Kipa Seruga Chabad Stienman Belz Viznitz (the whole aleph beis) and their own brother,But it seemed they had some hirhur teshuva on a day that Benie Kal Chai were killed on Kidush Hashem,But we reliazed that "Aririm Reshoim Shein Tovosom Shliema"
This editorial also has a tone to minimize the kedoshims zechus since it all happened because of the Zionist,so I am perplexed about the kedoshim of the Holocaust, are they full fleged kedoshim ?since according to the preface of the Vayoel Moshe it all happened because of the Zionists
Tzig:
"prove me wrong first, then we talk apology."
Do I have to prove you wrong? Prove yourself right! You have not been able to show where you have found in that editorial your (mis)statements. You are plainly fabricating stories!
"Tell the readers who writes the editorial, and despite the fact that it's published in a newspaper is too chicken to put his name on it"
Don't you know that editorials go unsigned? When did Reb Sender Deutsch Z"L ever sign an editorial? When did you see a signed editorial in ANY PAPER? Such senseless arguments on your part are just more proof of your inability to produce something real and provable.
I just hope that in your other life, as an accountant, you are more accurate.
Hey
just checked the NY Times op-ed pages.The actual editorial is not signed!
Ruvy discovered America!
1) the old editorial in Der Yid was signed, albeit by a pseudonym
2) since when is DY like the NYT?
No editorial was ever signed in Der Yid.
It is just one of the stories you made up and refuse to withdraw. The other are in your preceding comments regarding the DY editorial.
Reb Yid
the fact that you're 14 years old and don't remember better is not my fault. Ask your elders who Eliezer Epstein was in Der Yid for years...
Sorry, you are out of the woods.
I knew Reb Sender and spent quality time with him before you were born.
Never Ever was an editorial signed at Der Yid. Eliezer Epstein (Reb Sender) wrote an op-ed piece next to the editorial, which he wrote too.
Have you melted into you fabrication?
very clever of you. You supposedly shlogged up the fact that it was a vicious editorial by "proving" that Sender Deitsch - who wrote a weekly op-ed under a pseudonym - didn't write the "editorial." I'll need to check that up again. What does that have to do with this week's mudslinging?!
But I commend you for the smart diversion tactic.
"smart diversion tactic"?
Reb Sender wrote both, the op-ed piece under the Epstein pseudoynym and the editorial unsigned, always! No news in here except that you dreamed it to different.
Mudslinging, for sure. Lookup all the hate you produced on this page, without a single proof of your accusations.
All in the name of אהבת ישראל...
the point is we're not discussing the editorial in Der Yid this week, we're on to whether or not SD wrote under a pseudonym or not.
You don't think that's diversionary?
And I'm not doing it in the name of Ahavas Yisroel, I'm doing it to show that with some people it's business as usual. Unfortunately.
Tzig:
You brought all these subjects, starting with the טענה against the "unsigned" editirial which you misquoted, and ending with R' SD.
SD wrote under a pseudonym or not? He did both, and it is absolutely irrelevant. Neither is my age and a number of other side issues you tucked in. At one point you even declared me illiterate in Yiddish.
What else before we are done?
What will it take for you to learn, that your opinion is not necessarily conclusive?
Hirshel
Its about time you close this Eshkol, they are threading water.
while Hershel misunderstood the jab in the editorial, he rightly noticed it as such.
the reference was indeed as UD pointed out; that the Botei Chabad were not created to provide for Frum travelers (which would be acceptable to Der Yid) but to reach out to Frai Yidden (Reshoim, Kofrim, etc.)(which Satmar has a longstanding issue with)
the question remains why at this sensitive time did DY find it necessary to bring this up?
couldn't they just stick to their attack on the insensitive government? was it necessary THIS WEEK to bring up the "don't think that opening a Bais Chabad in the first place is acceptable, it's really Traife Kiruv" line?
Did you see the statements of RA of Kiryat Yoel last motzei Shabbos that every chabad house is a mokom kodosh
I did.
good to hear.
"the question remains why at this sensitive time did DY find it necessary to bring this up?"
Here is why:
(Open quote)
NEW YORK (JTA) -- Chabad-Lubavitch leaders are working overtime to transform the Mumbai attacks into an unparalleled opportunity for spreading the movement's message.
Chabad has received unprecedented media exposure since terrorists struck its center in Mumbai, killing two of its emissaries to the Indian city -- Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivkah -- along with four other Jews.
To capitalize on the wave of attention, the movement has conducted an orchestrated marketing and public relations campaign. Chabad officials in New York and emissaries around the world are conducting media interviews, and constituents who have been touched by the movement are reaching out in droves to local and international publications to extol its praises.
(Close quote)
As you see, this is a report by JTA. In Satmar and in its related communities, such "unparalleled opportunity for spreading the movement's message" has an echo, too.
The editoriel sought to counter that, within Satmar.
Rabbi Aron made his statement after DY published its editorial, and I will leave it for others to judge why he chose to make then.
psssssshhhhh
אפענע נבואה פון די זלמונים
http://www.vosizneias.com/24119/2008/12/11/new-york-satmar-rabbi-a-chabad-house-is-a-mukam-kadush-holy-place/
this is the official Satmar view about Lub 5769
ANON
Chabad is raising millions of dollars
one 31 year old guy gave half a million to Chabad Fort lauderdale , b/c Mumbai
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