Friday, December 19, 2008

3 Days In Kislev....



די ליצני הדור have a saying that goes something like this: Chassidus was around for 3 days, from the 19th to the 21st, because on 21 Kislev איז שוין געווען נשתכחה תורת הבעש"ט..... meaning that ש"ב the Satmar Rov, zt"l came along and made that statement, and he arrived to the safety of Switzerland on that day.... The פתגם is said in jest, but it bears some investigation. Why is it that these 3 days follow each other? I'm beginning to think that לא בכדי is the sequence such. There's also the fact that wedged in between 19 and 21 Kislev is 20 Kislev, the יומא דהילולא של מרן ה"פחד יצחק" מברוקלין זצוקללה"ה. I had a shtarke rotzon to go to Coney Island Avenue last night, but time didn't allow for it to happen. Maybe I'll get the tape... Chassidim also observe the 20th of Kislev, no tachanun is said by neither shacharis nor minchah, because of the "geulah" that the AR had from the house of his adversary after being released from prison to the streets of Petersburg, and the 20th is the yahrtzeit of the Rosh Yeshivah Zt"l. אזוי ווי מיר גלייבען דאך אין השגחה פרטית איז כדאי מעיין זיין אין דערויף......



Speaking of tachanun at mincha; why don't most chassidim say tachanun then even if they daven before the shkiah? and why is there this one yungerman - gantz an eideler - that comes to the Chabad mincha minyan and refuses to klap אשמנו and say tachanun even at that minyan? Is that minhag OK with the likes of Burech? Is that not the chossid trying to be "kliger vi di gantze velt?" Is his questionable minhag, which mainly comes from the fact that he normally davens after the shkiah to be allowed to continue despite the issues of Lo Sisgodedu and Al Tifrosh min haTzibur? I guess so. We have Ahavas Yisroel. A smart man once tried to tie in the fact tachanun at minchah is omitted all year to the idea of saying selichos at the end of the year. Imagine, he says, all those days that they go 24 hours without asking for forgiveness, from one day's tachanun to the next, of course they have to make up for it at the end of the year! Mah she'ein kein those that say tachanun at mincha, and then at Krias Shma She'al HaMittah, they have less to atone for. Efsher lomar B'derech tzachus....



The pictures here are a series of three pictures seemingly taken from a newsreel where the late Satmar Rov, zt"l is seen before, during, and after the Kastner Transport train that took him and over a thousand six hundred well-connected others to safety in Switzerland. Not before a four month furlough in Bergen-Belsen, though. I have yet to see them before, and neither have some people very familiar with history seen them. The Rov looks so out of place amongst all the irreligious looking Jews there. The picture of him looking out the window shows a very concerned Rov, wondering where this will lead him, where his talmidim and chassidim will end up, and maybe some discomfort as to his surroundings too. The subject and controversy of the rescue is one that Satmarer Chassidim are well aware of, and one they take very seriously, especially with the aspect of being saved by the Zionists. A Yiddish book, written by Hershel Friedman, has recently been published, and there he tries to debunk many of what he calls myths that the Tziyonim spread about the Rov, but I could not find it in the stores here. Other claims, like where the Chassidim say that the Nazis did not see the Rebbe's beard and peyos, or they thought the kerchief he had on his face was due to a toothache, may be addressed in the book too, I don't know. Maybe one of you read the book?

103 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Satmar Rebbe was for a half a year after that famous train ride in Switzerland with no much hanhogas haklal,

An Ailemesher said...

Doesn't seem right. Where's is Rebetzin Faiga?

Who are those people sitting in the first picture?

Hirshel Tzig said...

Ailemesher

you can't shlog op the whole picture just because you don't see his wife in this shot.

Yedidim said...

the rabbi didnt have a biber hat then,

Anonymous said...

these pictures were in Der Blatt 2 weeks ago.

Anonymous said...

I don't mean CH"V to be m'zalzel in either Kreiz, just a jab of humor in good jest:

They say 20 Kislev is der eintziger Tog fahr Chosidus. 19 is "Nischadsha", while 21 is "Nishtakcha"..
(The lattar is Playing on the Mahari Tav's "Nishtakcha Toras HaBesh"T - for those clueless..)

Anonymous said...

Any one who knows a little history would confirm that these pictures were taken on later occasions when the Rabbi was traveling around Switzerland or even later. These pictures can not be from the time of the War or immediately after. The Rabbi still had a pretty dark beard when h returned after the war to Switzerland.

Anonymous said...

hi

besides all the nice comments about satmer ruv, he was a gadol , a real gadol, in a time when there were still gedoilim.

about the pictures, its 100 percent obvious that these pics are from a later date, in switzerland, or maybe not even in swiss,

the rebbe didnt have a rebbishe hat and bekishe when he came from bergen belsen,

James said...

I'm posting in the next post an article from the Forward about Matisyahu.
You can post or delete it.But I'd love to hear your opinion.
Please spare us the knee-jerk Lubab character attacks.I'm past that.That's way to cultish.See,Matisyahu in the article feels that Lubavitch is very much like a cult
Waiting for an intelligent response.

Anonymous said...

the only hashgacha was that r hutner stuck it out for an extra few hours, and was not niftar on yud tes

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yedidim

I've seen a picture of the Rov with a biber hit with the handkerchief around his face. When was that? in Klausenberg ghetto? So why didn't he have the biber hit on the train?

Anonymous said...

Hershel, did you really think that that the picture you saw is an authentic picture? its clearly a drawing of how the Rabbi was covering his beard during those days, nothing more.

Hirshel Tzig said...

it was in the book שקיעת החמה that came out about a year after his petirah.

james said...

Tzig
I see you chose not to post the Matisyahu interview.
Do you have any response at least?

yoshe kalb said...

Hirshel sderze,
Anonymous of 1:00:00 PM is right. It's a drawing. I heard that the Ruv was allowed to keep his beard in Bergen Belsen, because one of the Nazi officials YM'SH attested:" Dieser Bart ist sauber!" (This beard is clean), although, as is well known, everybody had ALL of his body hair shaved off.
BTW, I remember how in my younger years, as a talmid in Toireh VeYireh, Rav Nussen Yossef Meisels said, that Tachnun is not said on 21 Kislev for the same reasons it is omitted in Chabad on 19 Kislev.

Anonymous said...

That picture of the covered beard is definitly a pencil drawing

Anonymous said...

Re mincha tachnun,
Accoding to the Minhag Yisroel Torah that is basicaly the ironclad Siget Satmar handbook, there is no source for not saying Tachnun before sunset , he finds some weak source in the Komarner in Shulchan hatohar that we go according the palestine sunset,
But then the old Satmar Rovs Shachris was in the winter time after the palestine sunset, plus the Satmar Rov was against the whole printing of the Shulchan Hatohar

james said...

Tzig
No need for your "favours", the Matisyahu article was posted on Vosiznaes, which has a readership a hundred times bigger than yours.
Go back to your kool aid
Go back to trying to convince people to make the mistake you made.
The relationship between Lubavitch and Judaism is quite coincedental.They may look the same sometimes to the outsider.
A freilichen chanuka.

P.S Don't need to hear your ignorant response, it would be a repeat of all the kool aid responses you've given as Lubavitchs underside and idol worship has been revealed (oh, ok not "idol worship" rather the deifying of a human being.What, did I say the Rebbe was human?????)

b said...

יאשע קאלב , דו ביסט א תלמיד פון די סאטמערער מוסדות ?
דרך אגב זייט מוחל אויף מייו עם הארצות אבער וואס מיינט איר מיט דעם
נאמען "קאלב" איז עס געווען א פערשון? איך האב קיינמאל נישט געהערט פון אזא נאמען
א דאנק פאר'ן ענפערען, פון פאראויס

Anonymous said...

Yoshe Kalb
Reb Ycheskel Roth has a hakdoma in his Emek Hachochma on the satmar yom tov of chof alef

Anonymous said...

Yoshe
What kind of camp was Bergen Belsen? was it as bad as Buchenwald Dachau..

Mottel said...

A Freilichen Chanukah tzu dir un dayne.

Hirshel Tzig said...

James

you storm in here ranting about Matisyahu and the year old news that he left Chabad. What am I supposed to say about that now?!

We discussed it back then, and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. I hope he has a very life in Karlin, or wherever his next step may take him....

As far as VIN is concerned: they'll print anything, so what does THAT prove?!

Anonymous said...

Rav Hutner is actually a fitting memutzah between the omek of Chabad and the Hungarian chagat of Divrei Yoel. He brought it all together.

Hyman said...

Tzig,
Very nice. you SENSORED/DELETED a comment I made about the Chabad BT movemant.
Is it cus you think the Baal teshuvas will finally chop after seeing what I wrote?
Or is it that your just sensitive?

Anonymous said...

Rav Hutners list is longer then Chabad and Satmar he still has to push in Rav Kook and then the Chazon Ish, pick and choose the decade

Anonymous said...

Rav Hutner was close to both Rebbes, RYT and RMMS and I dare say more successful in that his followers are still decent, civil human beings for the most part.

Hirshel Tzig said...

hYMAN

I censored it because it was totally not relevant to out conversation.

And it made no sense.

Please, no follow ups.

Anonymous said...

How was R Hutner more successfu? That there are more heavy set men with big tchups and cool glasses then those with silly yarmulkas and yellow flags?

yoshe kalb said...

b, יאשע קאלב איז געווען אן איידעם ביים ניעשעווער רבי'ן
Anonymous of 6:23,
How do you rate Gehinnom? Bergen Belsen was initially meant to be a detention camp for Jews with citizenship of countries not occupied by the Nazis. The main object was to exchange them eventually for German POWs. By the end of 1944, around the time when the Satmar Ruv left for Beatenberg,things changed dramatically, because around 50 000 prisoners of concentration camps close to the advancing Red Army were herded into Bergen Belsen. The camp administration could not cope with such an ammount of prisoners ( four times as many as could be "accomodated"). Typhus and other diseases spread like wildfire and in the last weeks before the liberation there was virtually no food available.
So decide for yourself how bad it was.

Anonymous said...

oy lakewood finally made it onto the lubi map! we had a tree lighting followed by a menorah lighting the next day in the town square.

Hirshel Tzig said...

it seems like you were more comfortable with the tree lighting in Lakewood....

Anonymous said...

I didn't attend either though I am certainly more comfortable conceptually with the tree lighting. why shouldn't the goyim parade their holidays? have you ever heard of a golus yid?

Anonymous said...

My mother zee in lichtig'n Gan Eden was both in Auschwitz and in Bergen Belsen from where she was liberated.

Her comment about the latter: "In Belsen there were no gas chambers...they were not necessarry"

The Bray of Fundie said...

I'm wating for CBT to discover how you wedged Rav Hutner's yohrzeit between the two Rebbisha Chagei Geulah and pontificate long and hard comparing and contrasting the various movements.

To really be of-a-piece his release from the Jordanian terrorists should have been on khof, not his histalkus.

I said waiting...not eagerly anticipating .

mm said...

The "new" mitzva
Lighting menorahs .
Chaza'l were not as smart as Lubab I guess.
And all Jews suffer because the Lubab fight with everyone to be mekayem the "new" mitzva
As you know "divrei chachomim chamurim mishel teireh" so al achas kamo vechamo "divrei the Rebbe"
Yechi hamelech

Hirshel Tzig said...

And all Jews suffer because the Lubab fight with everyone to be mekayem the "new" mitzva

uh huh, right. We all suffer, even the Lubabs, but we do it anyway.

Tell me, does your wife put something in your coffee that makes you act this way?!

burech said...

"Doesn't seem right. Where's is Rebetzin Faiga?

Who are those people sitting in the first picture?"

The Rebbe married Rebbitzen Faiga after the war, no?

Anonymous said...

first about the menorah issue.
the propergande chabad does about menorahs, harm us all 'including chabad' in every aspect. Wasnt our fathers clever enough to go out in every city and make a menorah ceremony?? who needs it?? are we goyim that need a their tree all over?? it only brings hate attacks every year. by lihghting that menorah we light the antismetisem!!
now back to the picture issue, there is a yid in switzerland named Halpert that has the hat the rabbi wore upon arriving to switzerland, its more like a cap or so. he showed it in public by a 21 kislev dinner, so those pictures must be from somewhere later

Hirshel Tzig said...

more anti-semitism than double parking and fighting with Puerto-Ricans over housing?

Anonymous said...

arguably more nationwide anti-semitism although in New York double parking and fighting with Puerto-Ricans over housing is a much greater cause.

V'ahl Kulom is the financial chicanery perpetrated by Jews of all religious stripes.

Hirshel Tzig said...

so Menorah lightings etc. are worse than fighting with Puerto Ricans over public housing?

Chusid said...

When I see pictures of minorah lighting ceremonies, and all the shvartes and spicks coming for a free cup of coffee and a latke. It makes me sick.
What a chutzpa to go ahead, and imbarrass the rest of Klal Yisroel, with things that were made up by someone who thought he knew better than Chazal.
Dont you realize we are still in Golus!!!
No good is will come from all these stupid court cases about minorahs made of silami, or whatever their bored minds can think of, being put up next to Xmas trees.
The Minorah thing is the worst PR for jews everywhere, especialy Lubavitchers.

Hirshel Tzig said...

when i see people calling themselves "chusid' saying things like that I get sick. How can anybody who claims to be a follower of the Baal Shem Tov VeTalmidov speak that way?!

The Baal HaMaor's words re: Chamin and Shabbos seem quite relevant here...

I understand you're insecure about your yiddishkeit, but Mach Nisht Avek Yenem!

Chusid said...

Tzig said, "when i see people calling themselves "chusid' saying things like that I get sick. How can anybody who claims to be a follower of the Baal Shem Tov VeTalmidov speak that way?!"
I am a Stoliner Chosid. Do realise how many Chasidim, followers of the Baal Shem Tov VeTalmidov speak this way about the Chilul Hashem that Chabad brings because of the Menorah stupidty. And they all make you sick?
So misnagdim make you sick. Chasidim that speak out against Chabad make you sick.
Satmar makes you sick.
Oh, but the Lubavitchers have tons of Ahavas Yisroel. Oh, and the rest of us "mach aveck yenem"!
Maybe that explains it. All the Ahavas Yisreol attracts the Shvartzes and Spicks.
The rest of us arent there...cus the Ahava is just too great.

Hirshel Tzig said...

אנטשולדיגט מיר ר' סטאלינער חסיד
I never said Misnagdim or Satmarer or Stoliner make me 'sick.'

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Ask your Rebbe if things like that should make you sick.

You can ask Reb Shmuel Dishon or Rabbi Pilchik too.

burech said...

The "big" defender of Chabad, Hirshel Tzig.
Now , what did Lubavitch do to be "zoicheh" to this special "saneigor"
With these "defenders" Chabad needs no critics.They do all their work alone

burech said...

Small example of how "normal" Lubavitch and it's "כאסידים" are
דער רבי נשיא הדור"
What "dor"?
I mean George Bush is not going to be President in a month, right?
So what kind of נשיא הדור is this.Fourteen years after???
"ואין פוצה פה ומצפצף"
Have Lubavitch become truly insane?
This includes even the אזוי גערופענע "נארמאלע"
Even on the matzeiva of Rabbi Feldman who was just niftar in Australia this nusach is used.
אם בארזים נפלה שלהבת מה יאמרו איזובי קיר?
ובכלל איו וועלעכע וואלען האט מען אים געוויילט אלץ "נשיא הדור" א קליינע צאל יידען באשלישט ןןער איז מנהיג הדור?

Anonymous said...

Chusid
Was the Jew in Yemen killed because of the Chabad menorahs?

Anonymous said...

Chusid
Why does your crooked mind understand that when you have your protests against some mixed swimming pool in Israel ( when half of Satmar from the Rebbes down are on a annual basis "close" to the mixed Miami hotels and beaches) you can bus in thousands of black hatters even kids before bar mitzva to Manhattan or to Washington DC to convey a point that no goy is getting it, but a few Jihadists,the media is being called to report, As I heard from Rav Lietner Z"l by one of these manhattan gatherings that eventough the TV is a Tomine Kali ( he didn't say Issur Gavra or Issur Chaftza) but if we have to tell that we have no relationship with Medinas Yisroel then we have to use even them, these events are offical Satmar not NK So think about it,the holy Lubavitcher Rebbe that believes and lives it 24/7 in the holy spark in every Jew wants to use every think possible to proclaim that Hashen hi Elokim from Menorah to Matzoh Factories,

Anonymous said...

Chusid
Did our grandparents built a party in Kenesset With MPS and Volvos? how can you live with that? Nor vos Den its a modern world and we have to use it for our benefit, the Lubavitcher Rebbe is using the modern world in a different way to fight assimilation

Anonymous said...

Chusid
U are not a Stoliner Chusid, Maybe from the Williamsburgh Shtibel that scream Shabbos on every women passing by

Chusid said...

"...its a modern world and we have to use it for our benefit, the Lubavitcher Rebbe is using the modern world in a different way to fight assimilation"

This modern day technique of yours works very well. The mexicans stay very far from the Blacks. Although there are times you will find assimilation between the homeless whites and puerto ricans at these minorah events.
As for the Jews. Because of the Lubes, the rest of frum jewery end up looking like antagonistic missionaries looking to build sina amoungst goyim. As far as the non-religious ones: Although there is the possibilty that a handful will get some jewish pride by seeing the "biggest!", "Fattest!", "skinniest!", "smelliest!" minorahs (wow,Amazing!!), and the free latkes, the general jewish guy will keep on walking, laugh and thank the good lord that he's not one of those nuts.

He was just given another reason to assimilate.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

First of all you have apparently never seen one of the gatherings you deride or spoken to a single one of the Jews who go there.

The problem with your argument is that when you say "Jew" what you really mean is "the small percentage of Jews who wear black and white clothes, judge all human beings by black and white skin and have black and white opinions to disguise the emptiness of their heads. The difference between chabad shlichus and your kiruv is that you are not satisfied that a baal teshuva is "done" until he is a carbon copy clone of yourself, whereas chabad will be happy if they do one mitzva. Yet without trying to "make baalei tshuva" chabad, through their love for all Jews (even you at the moments when you aren't provoking them) brings enough people "in" to almost make up for those your sects drive out. (Of course they don't think in terms of "out" and "in" because of the ahavas yisrael that you find so disgusting)

In short the lubavitchers here don't hate you. They're just angry. But I do.

Anonymous said...

Chusid
I am not getting your argument about the mexican,homeless...
In matter of fact by the Mumbai story I saw articles from every spectrum of sophisticated secular Jewry writing aboud chabad houses and its emissary with a respect that orthodox Jewry never recieved yet,as the WSJ,Boston Globe Weekly Standard, please go back to your sidur and scream Leolom Yehea Odom with a bren

Anonymous said...

Chusid can you share with the bloggers the recipe of Pumch? as I remember its being consumed on the 5th lichtel

chusid said...

Modeh, you know about the real kiruv movement and real jews, like I know about about what your rebbe did while he was in college in Germany and France for 7 years. (which I dont. and niether does alot of people).

And BTW, yes I actualy do judge things by what other black and White yidden think about the black and white torah, which was given down by our black and white rabbeim.
Unlike the colorful things that you judge by....
And the colorful person that you follow.

Lubavitcher said...

Chusid

when you tell us what your Rebbe and his California wife, as well as his mother and her California husband did when they met, then we'll tell you what our Rebbe did in College for his years. That's if you dare, because we have plenty of witnesses to our Rebbe's behavior.

Anonymous said...

Chusid
For the Rebbes work in Berlin we can get you 2 important sources the Rebbes Reshimoth and the letters between the Rebbe and his holy father, from the Beis aharon to reb Yuchenche, Karlin havent seen this kind of kedushas hatorah in a profound style.
Can you please verify at what point in time did the Slonimer chasidim mock the Karliners as "Gemalate Ferd"

SatmarTC said...

oy vey
chusid and Lubavitcher.....2 little kids

chusid : r u burech?

Anonymous said...

Wishing all the Lubavitchers a merry ya"t kisleiv and a happy new year, bedarkei hoeimory

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

>>Modeh, you know about the real kiruv movement and real jews,

Real kiruv? You mean like Oorah? how many of Rabbi Milstein's articles did you read and how many of his lectures did you go to? How many Jews (and they are Jews even if they don't dress like extras from the godfather) asked me the questions the aish clowns couldn't answer coherently and wouldn't go to a real rabbi because they wouldn't trust him?
>>like I know about about what your rebbe did while he was in college in Germany and France for 7 years. (which I dont. and niether does alot of people).

Rebbe? Huh? Oh. You mean R' Yosef B. Soloveichik? Funny you call him my rebbe since I was far from learning gemara when he was niftar. If you bash Rav Shneersohn zt"l here you can bash RYBS on hirhurim.

chagas said...

"How many Jews (and they are Jews even if they don't dress like extras from the godfather) asked me the questions the aish clowns couldn't answer coherently"

Now now Modeh, that is just a very silly thing to say.

Les man dipalig that the average Aish kiruv guy knows worlds more than the average Lubavitcher b'inyanei kiruv and that the average Aish kiruv guy can answer any Ba’al Tshuvas question alot better than the average Lubavitcher.

I am not saying that Lubavitch does bad kiruv work. But Lubavitch kiruv work is based on giving the guys fun and showing them that we have a good time too. B'derech klal the Lubavitchers have no answers for an intellectual.

Aish's kiruv work is about proving our religion and how it is more fulfilling than the Frei way of life.

Although Lubavitchers might attempt to answer questions, they are as good as that as Aish is at making a geshmake get together.

Most Aish kiruv guys go into kiruv because they believe in it and because they feel they will be successful at it. Hence they work on their kiruv skills and don’t begin working until they know good and well what they are doing.

Most Lubavitch kiruv guys go into it because they are inculcated and indoctrinated that this is their calling in life. They go into kiruv without knowing much and without having answers to the basic questions of Frei Yidden.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chagas

Leis man DePalig?

so you spoke to yourself in the mirror and figured it was good enough?!

Yechiel said...

"Real kiruv? You mean like Oorah?"
Modeh, what is wrong with Oorah?


My problem with Lubavitch is not so much what they do.After all, who cannot appreciate the efforts of a shliach in small places that would have very little Jewish life without them.The problem I have is their inability to accept other people working in kiruv.The first statement by this "modeh bemiktsas" guy is a blatant example.
He just cursed out Ooorah for no reason.Oorah does a lot of good.I 'm not sure how Rabbi Milstein got into the picture, but I know he had a very good radio program for a short time sponsored by Mishpacha magazine.
Lubavitchers and affiliates have to understand that you cannot demand respect if you don't give it.

Last but not least
I've asked the question a few times before.Tzig does not like the question.Why are Lubavitch seeking to turn everyone into a Lubavitcher?They target other Orthodox people to make them Lubavitch and are then surprised when people get angry.Especially if the targeted are young kids.
Tzig was targeted and now is trying to further the same missionary stance.It won't work peacefully.The machloikes with Satmar is only because of this.Yeah, there were some ideological differences, the trigger was the targeting of young kids.
Think what would happen if Breslov decides to send in undercover missionaries into Chabad.Would they not respond?

Hirshel Tzig said...

yechiel

you cannot put down Chabad kiruv and demand respect for your kind.

You cannot put down Chabad as the "closest religion" and demand respect.

Satmar's issue began waaaay before the incident with Vechter, so please.....

yechiel said...

Hirshel it's your blog.
So if I'm nasty you can choose not to post.
With regards to Satmar you are lying or don't know the truth.Satmar and Lubavitch had ideological differences as I mentioned.Satmar being so Anti-Zionist has ideological differences with all the more moderate chareidim.The war with Satmar was caused by Lubavitch targeting kids.Vechter was not the first.
Tell me, what is so hard to understand.If I targeted your kid to become a Gerer chosid, bring in one of the fiery talmidim of the Beis Yisroel to teach him in an underground enviroment , making them feel special, getting all this special attention, would you not be very, very angry??
Be honest, please.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Yechiel, again you speak from ignorance. At least 6-7 years before Vechter "targeted" young kids they were attacked by stones and had their rebbe's tziyun desecrated. So please. Besides, the only reason they reacted like they did about Vechter was because they were taught that Lubavitch was keforah, r"l. They would not and have not reacted that way when their sons turned to Breslov or other such groups.

yechiel said...

Vechter was not the first to target.
The whole tahalucha to chasidishe shuls was targeting, don't you get it?
But let us no go there for a sec.
You sidestepped my question so I'm asking again:
Your son is targeted by Gerer chasidim as potential to become a real Beis Yisroel style chosid.He is taught one on one with charismatic teachers who know how to impress impressionable kids.
What would your response be?
Be honest please.

Hirshel Tzig said...

my response? definitely not beating up the guy, stripping him naked, and leaving him for dead on Avenue J....

Good enough? Honest enough?

yechiel said...

Not good enough, not honest enough.
The whole relationship between different frum groups will not be hostage to one case that involved a few hooligans.Again you sidestepped the issue.Vechter should not have been attacked.Again not the issue.

Back to the issue.
What do you do.Your son has potential to becoming the next heiseh Gere chosid, who will also eventuall be able to impress others.
What do you do?
More importantly, how do you feel towards people targeting young kids.Love.Hate.Anger?
Go ahead be honest.

Hirshel Tzig said...

It's very hard to answer such a hypothetical question. I would need to evaluate my child and see if this is suitable for him, and even then, even if I would feel anger (never would I feel hate) I would never resort to such violence.

In my case how can I be angry if I did the same thing?!

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

"Real kiruv? You mean like Oorah?"
Modeh, what is wrong with Oorah?

Nothing at all. I mentioned Oorah as the largest non-chabad kiruv organization. I never cursed oorah and never said a word against them except a description of their derech almost directly quoted from articles in the yated by oorah kiruv workers. Also, your definition of an intellectual needs a lot of work if it's the kind of person who would swallow aish. If aish was to answer my questions I would be an atheist. Also, why do you keep insisting that I'm Lubavitch?

yechiel said...

Hirshel,
I commend your honesty.
I also think that your last line:
"In my case how can I be angry if I did the same thing?!" was very telling.Basically, you are saying you have a bias.Again, I'm saying this eidel so please don't be offended, but there is a syndrome called the Stockholm syndrome(is a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker)
A lot of what you do on the blog is defend the indefensible because you are stuck in this state.

I want to tell you that if my kid was targeted I would be burning mad! I would surely hate,I would not be violent because that is not my backround.In my mind targeting little kids is unforgivable

Hirshel Tzig said...

please. stop with the quack psychology. all I said was that I appreciate people looking for a derech that suits them.

so then the Yated and other such newspapers that defend their positions are also sufferers of SS and are stuck in their situations?

yechiel said...

Hirshel
We've had a decent discussion so let's not ruin it by throwing in red herrings such as Yated and the SS.K?

Hirshel Tzig said...

SS is Stockholm Syndrome, and I was using Yated to prove my point.

ok, I'll use Der Yid instead.

yechiel said...

Sorry I missed the meaning of SS.
Regarding the Yated reference:You yourself have pointed out that the newspaper was actually rethinking their opinion.
But,please lets not throw in red herrings, I'm not the p.r guy for anybody, so I can't answer or sidetracked on non issues.

I was trying to explain why many fair minded people have an issue with Lubavitchs' attempts to get already observant people to join their ranks.I think this is the main source of tension

Hirshel Tzig said...

THAT part of Lubavitch has not been very active recently, which is sort of unfortunate, so I don't think that's the reason for the opposition. And if it is then the attacks have to focus on that.

I used the yated as an example of a frum paper defending the actions of frumme yidden. Not as is related to Lubavitch. The same goes for the Agudah; is the fact that they defend frum Jews proof that they too suffer from Stock. Syn.?

Anonymous said...

Modeh asked a very good Question: why do you keep insisting that I'm Lubavitch?

The obvious answer is: Everyone can smell a skunk, even miles away.

Hyman said...

HT said, "In my case how can I be angry if I did the same thing?!"

Really? I never knew that about you. At what age did they chap you? Oy, nebach. They try to get them when they are young, or mixed up.
It must be hard, Im sure. There must be times that you wanna go back. But pride always gets in the way.
When you see other frum jews looking at you as a nebach case, do you ever feel like- "gevalt, what have I done"?

Hirshel Tzig said...

..... then I look at morons like you who think if they go by "Hyman" or "Henry" that they'll sound less Jewish and I dance for joy that I left!

chagas said...

Tzig:

"so you spoke to yourself in the mirror and figured it was good enough?!"

Ouch.

Let me rephrase that.

From my experience and the experience of those who I have spoken to and dealt with regarding kiruv and such, which includes hundreds (or perhaps thousands) of people over the past thirty years on four different continents....

From all those people there is les man dipalig about what I stated.

I did my time in Lubavitch, I grew up near 770, and I am quite familiar with them.

There are the good and the not so good in Lubavitch. But one thing seems certain; Chabad cannot light a candle to Aish in terms of kiruv.

Agav, the way you responded to me is a perfect example of a most disturbing trend found amongst Lubavitch youth today. A simple question about their Chasidus and/or way of life in a non antagonistic manner and instead of getting a response you get insulted.
I simply stated an opinion shared by most people that Lubavitch kiruv is not in the same league as Aish kiruv. I also clearly wrote "I am not saying that Lubavitch does bad kiruv work".
But instead of responding you attack me and hurl insults.

Hyman said...

For people that leave their beliefs for reasons like you just stated,ie. they ("they"-as if "all of them" do) call themselves names like Hyman and Henry,
Chabad is the perfect place for them.

Hirshel Tzig said...

chagas

your whole comment was one big insult, albeit clothed in a nice way. That only makes it more of an insult.

I vehemently disagree with the veracity of your statement too.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Hymie

I never said all. You just make it alot easier for me.

chagas said...

Tzig:

First of all I never meant to insult anybody. I apologize if I did. I like Lubavitch a lot and was not trying to put them down.

The fact that you disagree with me about Chabad vs. Aish kiruv we can do nothing about. We are arguing a point that is impossible to prove.
But allow me to ask you the following:
1- I have my thirty years of experience in the field of kiruv. How many do you have?
2- I have objectively studied both Chabad and Aish kiruv methods. Have you?

I was recently in Miami and I went to visit the University of Miami.
There are 2 on campus kiruv organizations, Lubavitch and another.
In 20 years of operating on campus Lubavitch has made 2 Ba’alei Tshuva. In all those years Lubavitch had gotten a grand total of 2 people to become Frum and keep Shabbos!
The other organization has been operational for 5 years. In those 5 years they have gotten more than 20 people to become Frum and go to yeshiva in E”Y!
Of course the Lubavitchers had many more parties and consumed a whole lot more booze. The head of the Lubavitch kiruv house was almost thrown off campus for making one of his usual Friday night parties, where everybody gets smashed, and then letting a student drive home drunk resulting in a crash!

You can teinah that is one isolated incident and that elsewhere Lubavitch work is on par with their competitors. But unfortunately that is not the case. Do some real research and you will see.

Kimmel said...

I'm going to go out on a limb and try to prove Chaga's' contention that :
"Chabad cannot light a candle to Aish in terms of kiruv"

Firstly,
"Poischim bechvoid achsanyo", since this is a Chabad site I''ll have to agree that Lubavitch does more kiruv than Aish! (hope that makes Tzig happy)
The question is what is the "bang for the buck"?
Lubavitch claim to have four thousand shluchim, even if we allow a very broad definition of "shliach" including a salaried job as a teacher in a day school it still leaves us with very impressive numbers.
Aish:
Twenty, thirty......OK, 100 broadly defined shluchim.A couple of centers worldwide.But see how much this small cadre of professionals has done.
Chabad:Been around for more than two hundred years, large base to fall back on.
Aish:40 years in the making?Base?Rabbi Noiach Wineberg?

Look how much they have down.
Btw, their website is one of the most visited and ranks on an equal basis with Chabad.org in views (maybe someone can gives us the current rankings...)
Quite impressive without that huge Worldwide base that Chabad has!

Bert said...

Chagas said:"Of course the Lubavitchers had many more parties and consumed a whole lot more booze."

And I take pride in that. lets see some 10 "yeshiva benkle kvetchers" put down half the amount of booz your average Chabad shliach can put down on a normal friday night.
Wimps.
Yechi!

Anonymous said...

Kimmel
Aish has every Litvisher godal behind them vs Chabad

chagas said...

Bert,

"And I take pride in that. lets see some 10 "yeshiva benkle kvetchers" put down half the amount of booz your average Chabad shliach can put down on a normal friday night."

Indeed something to be proud of.
A true accomplishment.
Halevai one day we will all drink like Lubavitchers.

Tzig, if you are trying "to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing" then why would you post something that makes you look so bad and gives the Chabad bashers more material?




Kimmel,

Thanks for the info.
Unfortunately Tzig will most likely not answer these questions.
He tends to walk away from discussions that he can't handle and questions he can't answer.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

You can smell a skunk anon? COme on. SOmeone with as much experience insulting people as you should be able to do better than that.

Kimmel, I'll leave the real Lubavitchers here to explain the difference between their goals and aish's, but you seem to miss it.

BTW I think it's very sad that this is the most civil comment thread I've seen on this blog.

Hirshel Tzig said...

next these clowns are gonna ask me to refute the "well-known fact" that all Jews have large gold reserves and drink Christian blood on passover. Then too, the fact that I have no answer will somehow be my admitting to that "well-known fact."

You guys crack me up.

Bert said...

"next these clowns are gonna ask me to refute the "well-known fact" that all Jews have large gold reserves and drink Christian blood on passover."
I know Tzig, and thats why I never try and refute anyone that comes up with "well known facts" to discredit the rebbe and Chabad. Like the "fact" that the Rebbe is "NOT Boreinu". I mean where do they get their "facts" from?? How krum can they be?? Then too, the fact that I have no answer will somehow be my admitting to that "well-known fact."

They crack me up too.
Yechi!

chagas said...

Tzig,

You have played the "Jews drink blood" card too many times.

I am not trying to start a blood libel against Lubavitch.
I have stated again and again that I have nothing against Lubavitch.
I am in no way looking to harm Lubavitch with the claims that I am making.

I simply stated a number of truths that would seem to add up to the fact that Aish's mehalech in kiruv is far better and more efficient Lubavitch's mehalech in kiruv.

When I originally suggested that Aish's kiruv program is better you disagreed with me. So I backed up my claims.

Now when I say that your silence is proof of the fact that you have no answer, you compare my claims to that of a blood libel?!

Please Tzig, just answer the questions you were asked, or bring some sort of backup to your refutation of my claims.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Chagas
I was referring to that clown Bert's claim about shluchim drinking.

I am unaware if the shliach at the U of Miami has only made 2 BTs. I find that hard to believe. I also don't think that he's the gold standard in Chabad kiruv either. We can use much more successful Chabad shluchim against Aish guys and find the opposite to be true.

Either way, I'm sure both sides can learn from each other.

chagas said...

Tzig,

I am sure that the shliach at U on M is not the gold standard of Lubavitcher kiruv.
But the story regarding him was only a minor point.

And I too am sure that both sides can learn from one another. But like I said, les man dipalig (for the meaning of that see previous posts) that Aish is overall a better mehalech.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Also, as I've had it explained to me, chabad's goal isn't BT's per se like aish's is. It is to bring some kind of mitzva no matter what it is to as many Jews as possible. Correct me if I'm wrong. In that way it really succeeds. I have found one group that aish has the perfect toolbox for. THere are people of a certain mindset found on college campuses primarily at mediocre-level private schools. There are people who want to be rationalists, and will turn up their noses at anything -- especially religion -- that does not take pains to prove to them that it is rational. However they don't have the discernment to know what this abstraction of 'rationality' is let alone recognize it when they find it. These are the many secular Jews who give chabad a pass right away because it openly describes itself as mystical, whereas they would go straight to aish because of aish's approach and not be turned off when they find out emuna is emuna regardless of the shape of the rabbi's hat and the length of his coat.

Anonymous said...

This bean counting of Aish vs Chabad is false, lets say we have 2000 chabad houses, each Chabad house after a few years in business has worked and succeded on at least 10 families,Most of them have like 40 or 50 so you are up to minimum 20000 famlies that are closer to torah umitzvhos, not all of them are in the Kapote Club( as Shneur loves to phrase it)but the numbers are as big as Ger with Satmar together, as an outsider that visited many countries and many states I saw it with my own eyes. I know of a kolel in a eastern European country that was created with the full pretense of anti chabad by people that were living the Shach hate dogma,as of today they havent saved not even one soul,

SatmarTc said...

Aish kiruv is a natural ramification of Chabad
All the BTs that coming from Aish are a zechus from the Lub Rebbe

Regarding Lubs tryng to hap Satmars
Yes, these are "old news"
the rule "there are 2 kinds of Jews: Lubs and not yet Lubs" apllies with no restrictions

I saw many Lubs becoming Breslovers after 3 Tamuz, but , only Bts

yechiel said...

"Either way, I'm sure both sides can learn from each other."

Tzig,
I can't believe you actually wrote the above quote!!!
You have actually admitted that Lubavitch can learn from others, even in what is considerd Lubavitchs forte.
I commend your honesty!

Anonymous said...

i was at a fri nite dinner at chaba at u of m, and met 2 brand new, or 1/2 way BT's by the shaliach, who is there only 7 or so years.

Anonymous said...

>>I know of a kolel in a eastern European country that was created with the full pretense of anti chabad by people that were living the Shach hate dogma,as of today they havent saved not even one soul,

Such misse talk! Hate? Dogma? Go learn something, you menuval.