Saturday, December 13, 2008

No time to mourn


COL

Chabad has some traditions that has people scratching their heads. "Why do they insist on them," they ask. "Why can't they be like everybody else," they cry. One of them is the minhag not to make hespedim on a niftar, no matter who he or she may be. The fact that there were hespedim last week in Kfar Chabad notwithstanding. A typical levaya in Chabad in New York goes something like this: A sign goes up that the levaya of so-and-so will leave Shomrei HaDas chapels at 2:00 and will pass 770 at around 2:30. At Shomrei HaDas, Tehillim may be recited before the aron is loaded into the hearse. At 770 a crowd usually assembles in front of said building, and the aron arrives on or around the announced time. The car usually stops for a few minutes while the crowd gathers around. The women stay on the other side of the service road of 770 and watch. After a few minutes the hearse begins to move, and those who go to the feld usually get into their cars to follow the hearse to the Old Montefiore Cemetery in Queens, where the Lubavitcher Chelkah is located. (Even in death they're separate, those Lubavitchers!")

On Monday - when I started writing this post - there was a Levaya for the mother of a Lubavitcher Chossid here in Monsey. No "tragedy" per se', the woman was 92 years old. An email went out at about 11am that the levaya would pass our shul at 2pm and that burial would be at Sons of Israel cemetery on Brick Ch--ch road, half a mile down the road. That cemetery requires a post of its own, with a 7 foot stone wall separating the Vizhnitzer Beis Olam - where the Skulener Rebbe and Ribnitzer Rebbe are buried, and the Olamishe one, where such Gutte Yidden as Rav Mordche Schwab and Reb Nesanel Quinn are interred. The hearse - a Toyota Sienna minivan like a thousand others in Monsey - arrived at around 2:40, parked in the parking lot, lifted the tailgate, and the levaya began. Walking down the road. Maybe 200 feet, and the van pulled away, not waiting for the others. The procession then headed to their respective cars and drove the half mile to the cemetery, where the aron and the driver were waiting patiently.

At the beis olam the ceremony was short and quick. The aron was removed from the van and placed on the metal "bed" and then carried down the walkway to the open grave. Yoshev B'seyser was said seven times, stopping at the appropriate time. The Chevra Kadisha man was a seasoned veteran of seemingly Satmar stock who expertly instructed the novice procession of when and where to stop each time. After arriving at the kever the aron was soon lowered into the grave, with the said man barking out instructions of when are where to drop first. After being told "nisht ibergebben," the assembled worked for about 10 minutes covering the aron with the dirt and the shovels supplied, and the deed was soon done. Kaddish was recited by her three sons. Two rows of people soon lined up and the Aveilim took of their shoes and we're comforted by the assembled, who were warned נישט נאכגיין! An old pump on the side of the path with an old "Kvort" was used for washing hands. You need to actually pump the water out of the ground. When I started the engine in my car the clock read 3:13. It took a maximum of 40 minutes from the beginning of the levaya till after S'timas HaGolel!

Where I come from, even a simple yid's levaya takes a minimum of 4 hours from beginning to end. There's going to the chapel and waiting. There's the hespedim, a minimum of three, at least one by his Rov, or Rebbe of the shtiebel where he davened, and family members, son, eydem, eynikel etc. Even in the death of an elderly man or woman there's usually lots of crying, and presumably some התעוררות too. Lots of time to mourn. The procession outside the chapel is usually for a couple of short blocks and the hearse waits for the cars that will follow to New Jersey of Long Island, an hour's distance. At the cemetery there's often another hesped. All in all you've been in the levaya mode for some hours now, and if you're an immediate family member you cried plenty too. Now compare that to the Lubavitcher levaya and see how much crying the Lubavitcher did for his immediate family member. I know that the minhag chabad is not be maspid, but it seems like the minhag is also not to mourn, or at least to minimize the mourning. At the aveilim house it's more nechomoh than aveilus, so that wouldn't make up for it. Just my thoughts, what say you?

82 comments:

burech said...

Why is the minhag in Lubavitch not to be maspid?

burech said...

Can you please answer the question?

burech said...

Am I asking to much?
Why do you have this minhag?
If you don't know say so

Anonymous said...

I'm wasting my time with you.You are an out and out "na'ar"
Surprise,surprise! The Tzig became a Lubavitcher. "He was always a naar"

A simple request to understand a questionable minhag goes unanswered and the worst thing is that you probably don't care."The Rebbe said so"
Lubavitch is in this crazy mess because nobody there wants to understand basics.Once you don't challenge, you get away with anything.Next stop on the kook train is: "We''ll show them that The Rebbe really runs the world"!!

Oh,
that happened already????
Wonder what in heaven the next stop will be: Elvis has taken over Groners job???

Friendly anonymous said...

Loi sa'ale b'maylos al mizbchi etc.

Hirshel Tzig said...

anon 2:01

last time I checked I wasn't on retainer from you. I don't need to be at your beck and call 24/7. If you can't handle waiting a while to get an answer to a non life-threatening minhag then you need to see a doctor. FAST.

burech said...

I'm not anon
I'm Burech.
And this minhag is another classic of Lubavitch being "smarter" that other Jews.
What I "liked" most is when they said that the minhag (osiyos gehinom)in Lubavitch is not to be maspid and than proceeded to drag out for hours and hours every tom,dick and harry to be "not" maspid.
Bunch of fakers

burech said...

Oy zennen dee Chabadskers klig!
Look at what a p.r guy they got for themselves.
The Tzig??

holy roller said...

why where their hespeidim takkeh last week in kfar chabad? simply so shimon peres shouldnt be the only speaker?

burech said...

Still no answer.
Guess, mehn darf gayen in baken an entfer.
I'm bothered that such a bunch of ignorant nobodies and meshugoim have managed to fool the world that they actually represent Judaism.
Rabboisai,
Lubavitch as an organized group has little in common with Yiddishkait.
The garbage is trickling out.
"The Rebbe runs the world"
"The Rebbe shlit'a"
"Atsmus umahus"
etc
etc.
"Ya't Kislev the most important day on the Jewish calendar"

The question is not what they are smoking.They are well known meshugoim.The question is what we are smoking by not giving them a huge shtois arous.

burech said...

Sorry for being nasty, but you need to get a brain or shutup or think before you write garbage/nonsense

Hirshel Tzig said...

holy

dunno why.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Burech and those like him are why there NEVER will be true achdus for longer than a week, even after tragedies like we just witnessed.

burech said...

Tzigaleh
Sorry to break it to you but Lubavitch have for a very long time been the cause for no achdus.Always alone, always right.
Now that was before they parted ways with Yiddishkait, before "The Rebbe ran the world" etc.
Now they either come back or go the way of many groups that chose to leave.......ayin kas Shabtai Tzvi.
It's a free choice.

burech said...

in nooch allem der tzig is still clueless why there r no hespeidim.
I told you he is klig.That why Lubavitch hired him to do their p.r

snag13 said...

Burech

you're making "real Jews" look very bad by shooting your mouth off. Shut up and crawl back into your hole.

Anonymous said...

I was at litvaks levaya last year,his sons were "gevorener" lubavitchers. Rabonim, cousins and grandchildren were maspid the Chushever zaida, but his own sons refused to be maspid theyre father.... since its not the minhag in Chabad!
Basicly they spat on theyre fathers aron in order to go according to minhag chabad.
I can bet you that the rest oilam that was at that lavaya were all thinking: Uh, Dus hut Rav Schach gemeint.

snag13 said...

attention all stupid Litvaks: A Lubavitcher keeping a minhag that you don't agree with is just as noble as keeping your own Litvishe minhag. Minhogei Chabad all have very shtarke mekoros, believe it or not. The fact that a son is not maspid a father is not spitting on a grave. c"v. it's kovod hamess no less than a foolish eynikel making a Tzaddik HaDor out of his am ho'oretz grandfather or Rochel Imeinu out of his grandmother who barely kept Taharas Hamishpacha.

Enough with you embarrassing emes Litvaks. You're all a bunch of Hungarian wannabe Litvkas who have no connection with the real thing!

Anonymous said...

Snag13
is actually Lubab,age 12.
Nice.

burech said...

And still no answer....
R'Shneour Zalman Mliady, mi yegale ofor mieynecho?
Look at what happened to Chabad.
Rabbosai
Siz du bechireh auf der velt.They can choose to take the ways of the Baal Hatanyah
or
be meshiggeh

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch Robot # nag 13 said, "attention all stupid Litvaks...Enough with you embarrassing emes Litvaks. You're all a bunch of Hungarian wannabe Litvkas who have no connection with the real thing!"

And then they call us haters.

...Uh, dus hut Rav Schach gameint!

snag13 said...

sure, sure, convince yourselves!

This was a thread about the minhag chabad not to be maspid. This is a minhag of kamoh doros. Then you haters started poking fun and calling names. Was that called for? did Tzig tshepeh anybody here?

My zaide was a Kamenitzer talmid, so don't tell me about Litvand and what they stand for.

Burech, your type I don't talk to, because the biggest broch after WW2 was that your type became balleibatim.

You fools think you understand what Harav Shach zt"l hut Gemeint? You foolish Hungarians think you know Chabad better than those who have been part of it for generations?

Go away and leave us alone here to discuss issues as adults.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Most people who call themselves litvaks today are really yinger mirrers who are just made-in-china knockoff litvaks.

Kol Hakavod to snag13 for showing litvaks can have ahavas yisrael too.

Hyman said...

A Lubavitcher keeping a minhag that you don't agree with is just as noble as keeping your own Litvishe minhag. Minhogei Chabad all have very shtarke mekoros, believe it or not. The fact that a son is not maspid a father is not spitting on a grave. c"v. it's kovod hamess no less than a foolish eynikel making a Tzaddik HaDor out of his am ho'oretz grandfather"

Heres an example of typical Chabadsker who can make a crushed pretzel seem straight with his bile filled krumkite.
What he is saying is that Minhag Chabad OVERRIDES a mitzvas eseh min hatorah of Kibud Av! (kal vichomer if your father was a "non-believer", and never found the saviour)
When I see stuff like this I say:
Ashreinu ma tov chelkeinu!
Vihivdilanu min hatoim.

snag13 said...

Hyman

so now you're the expert on kibud av? do you have a mokor for your boych svoroh? what about the daughters, don't they have a mitzvah too? so why aren't they maspid?

So if a man has 12 sons they're all maspid?

Hashem, please restore the old glory of di Lita. These people have done so much damage already!

burech said...

"Minhag of kammo doros"
Proof???
So a "minhag of kammo dorros" wins over a universal dinneh degemorroh, practiced by every kehilla, Ashkenazim and Sephardim for thousands of years????
you heard of the gemorra that says ויבקש דוד את פני ה' ויאמר ה' אל שאול ואל בית הדמים ,אל שאול שלא נספד כהלכה

Anonymous said...

"My zaide was a Kamenitzer talmid....it's kovod hamess no less than a foolish eynikel making a Tzaddik HaDor out of his am ho'oretz grandfather"

So your grandfather... Ah, now I understand.

BTW, this place IS for adults not little kids.

Anonymous said...

since lubavitch has become accustomed to continuously be maspid the living, by always praising themselves (and criticizing others) there is no reason any more not to be maspid the death

burech said...

I see that the Tzig is a total am ho'oretz and I will somehow have to defend this mistaken "minhag"
The gemora in Sanhedrin says that a meis shloi nispad or was dragged away by wild animals, siman yoffeh lemeis.Rashi explains that it's a good sign for the meis that he is punished, i.e by not having a hespeid, in this world and having atonement through this.
Also in another gemorah it's related that one may not exagerrate to much about the niftar because it is bad for the niftar and maspid (probably the same idea that the niftar gets some sechar in this world rather than yenner velt)
But again, it shows that the Lubavitcher percieve themselves as smarter, ehrlicher than the whole world that knows about these gemaras just as well

snag13 said...

Burechel and his Hungarian 'Litvak' friends:

גיי ק-ק אין ים

You're every melamed's nightmare, with your פארדרייטע קאפ

You never heard of a niftar expressing that no hespedim be made? Is that too against Halochoh? are you all a bunch of BTs and Geyrim here that you have no knowledge nor respect for Minhogim?

so now your magyar bubbe is Shaul HaMelech?

And if I bring you proof that it was done in the times of the Tzemach Tzedek then you'll shut your mouth???

And yes, my zaide managed to pass the farher in kamenetz. That's pretty good in my eyes. Besides, I used him as an example of my ancestry, not his Tzidkus. Farshteyst?

Tzig: you attract some real winners here....

Anonymous said...

Snag
Say whatever you want but don't try fool everyone that u r not Lubab.
We smell your type from miles away

Hirshel Tzig said...

Burechel, genius

so now only you and your Kitah daled Rebbe can understand a shtikkel gemoroh? No one else has that crystal clear understanding of a simple Gemoro and makes such silly mistakes?

Oy di Madyaren...

snag13 said...

anonymous 3:56
have your nose checked

yoshe kalb said...

burech,Hyman et.alt.,
the simple reason for NOT having hespedim is, that no-one, except for the Eibishter, knows really what kind of person the niftar was.So by giving false praises you are actually creating a kitrug for the niftar, when he really needs s'chussim. So it's best not to say anything that may not be true.
Now concerning last weeks hespedim in K.Ch., it is selfunderstood that we are talking here about kedoishim, so the kitrug aspect is not valid.
BTW I'd be quite happy to be maspid behaimishe ameratzim like you...

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Boorichel. You are why so many people I know refuse to put on a black hat because they consider it a badge of שנאת חינם. It's strange that you made in china knockoffs don't like Jews half as much as the chinese goyim I know.

BTW Tzig, where does the minhag come from anyway?

burech said...

Yoshe kalb et all kool aid drinkers,
So now we have a scenario that all kehillos yisroel have it wrong and only the Lubavitcher have it right?
How wonderful! (and arrogant)
Another one of the many customs that "only" Lubavitchers have right.

Anonymous said...

Tzig
Its the norm by 90% of chassidim not to be maspid, its 1 of the oldest chassidishe minhagim, It is a inyan of bitul.
Skver
Viznitz
Gur
Zhikov(my grandparents were zhikover chassidim)
Rachmistrivke
Amshinov
they only place it was done big time was satmar Siget

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

No, simply they have a right to follow their minhagim as much as you have a right to follow yours. I think the story with the sons who wouldn't be maspid their father -- who did have a minhag to have hespedim was not yosher. But I'm not a rav and I assume they consulted one.

Anonymous said...

Burech
What Yoshe is saying is a Toras Hodom of the Ramban in the name of Masechtas Simchas and the Shulchan Aruch quotes it and adds that whoever adds too much in the hesped is causing bad for himself and the niftar,I understand you will not digest that chasidim are stringent into halacha but they introduced many hidurim bemitzvoth that were accepted universaly and some not no different thaen the Gra did with Yoshon

Anonymous said...

This discussion is rediculious beyond belief. I work in CK, and I've attended too many levayas L"O where some Rov who barely know the niftar/nifteress delivers a great speech that everyone in the crowd knows is aingerete bobe maises. It's bezoyon hames to say things that are simply not true (besides that l'maaloh they demand from the neshama an accounting for what is said about it). It is far simpler to have no hespeidim across the board than to have creative imagination in overdrive at most levayas. BTW, my father, 100% polish, clearly said that at his levaya there should be no hespeidim at all and we followed his wishes. After the levaya, people told us how much they appreciated our father's wishes not to waste peoples time in middle of a workday for speeches that everyone forgets 5 minutes after the levaya.

Anonymous said...

to the gantze bande viste amei-ha'aretz:

the din hamuva b'chol haposkim is that if even one exaggeration is mentioned be'es ha'hesped the results for the Mes are disastrous rch"l, hepech the inyan of Kavod Hames which is the yesod of din hesped in the first place.

Therefore it is the minhag, zeh kama me'os shanim mamash, in ruba d'ruba kehilos ashkenaz, not to be maspid.

the Aruch HaShulchan YD 344:14 states explicitly that the minhag ha'olam is not to be maspid.

To be sure, he wonders (respectfully) about the yesod ha'minhag, and he concludes that there is additionally the concept of mechila at play, and incidentally, many Gedolei Hador mamash (the p'nei yehoshua vehadome) were makpid that there be no hesped for them; thus, any group of Yidden who were mekabel upon themselves not to be maspid each other, obviously go into the category of Chasidim u'prushim k'b'shanim kadmoniyos.

v'yesh l'hair from the maase of the Rashab and R. Chaim vak"m.

Hirshel Tzig said...

has anybody seen or heard from Burech and Hyman the last few hours?

Burech?

Hyman?

Hello?

I guess they did crawl back into this hole....

Sometimes the approach of sitting back and watching fools self-distruct is best.

Thank You Yoshe, Modeh B'Miktzas et. al for putting him in his place.

Arthur said...

I will not reply to the ibergishpitste velts chachomim who ridicule a minhag that goes back many generations.That question has been answered adequately by others.
I ,however have a question for them.Where does the term kiruv "richokim" come from? Does it go back to the times of the GR"A? Which so called "gedailey Yisroel" coined this phrase that smacks of arrogance and gases haruach.Who has the audacity to judge who is korev and who "rochok".Is it us or the Ribono Shel Olom? Did you hear of the strange minhagim of Brisk,the Perushem who were talmidai HAGR"A , and other sectors of the Torah world who have their own seemingly outlandish minhagim? Did you ever hear that each of the Shvotim had their own nusach hatfilla? You have issues with Chabad so be it, but don"t clothe your overt hatred in amaratzus.

tzibaleh said...

Burech?

Hyman?

Hirshel, but of course you know where they are

תואנה הם מבקשים
they just went looking for another
תואנה

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Baruch tihyeh Hershel.


the din hamuva b'chol haposkim is that if even one exaggeration is mentioned be'es ha'hesped the results for the Mes are disastrous rch"l, hepech the inyan of Kavod Hames which is the yesod of din hesped in the first place.
--Anon 7:57
I seem to recall a mechaber quoting the RaMBaM to the effect that one may even exagerate slightly about the niftar's accomplishments out of kavod hameis since A)nobody knows the full extent of a yid's maalos and B)It is important that the olam miss the niftar.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Just want to point out that the sons not being Maspid their father because that it the Minhag in Chabad would seem to be a mistake. Chabad does (I assume) not argue against the Halach of being Maspid. Chabad is not maspid for CHABAD. But as their father was not Chabad, why would they not be Maspid him? By way of example, if the Minhag in Chabad is not to say tachnun on the Rebbes Yartiyt, they certainly don’t expect none Lubavitches not to say Tachnun on that day.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Twisty

is it a din in the niftar or in the maspid? די נפק"מ איז פשוט

shloime miller said...

To 'burech' and the other morons who've posted their ignorant drivel on this topic...

The Reishis Chochma describes at length, the terrible torment a soul endures if it's eulogized with any exaggeration at all !! He writes that the soul is mocked by many angels above the gravesite, who taunt it and demand that the soul live up to everything that has been said about it, which is of-course impossible. This can go on for years and prevent the soul from entering gan-eden. Given this terrible risk, it has long been the custom in many communities to avoid hespedim altogether.
Of-course the faculty in the 'hate factories' that produce imbeciles like 'burech' have likely never seen the inside of a reshis Chochma, so they prefer to preach from ignorance - what a surprise !!

chaimshmeel said...

What Shloime Miller wrote brings to mind the famous story of R' Aizik Homiler who smashed part of a matzeva with an axe during the annual tikkun kvorim on lag b'omer. He explained that by smashing the lies off the matzeva, he had brought rest to the neshomo, which would now be allowed into Gan Eden !

chaimshmeel said...

Everything that happens before kevuro delays the neshomo moving onto the next stage, so it makes sense to rush it...

Anonymous said...

Modeh B'Miktsas, here is the lashon of the mechaber with be'er ha'gola in ellipses:

שו"ע יו"ד שדמ:א

ואסור להפליג בשבחו יותר מדאי [ברייתא באבל רבתי]... רק שלא יפליג... וכל המזכיר על מי שלא היה בו כלל או שמוסיף להפליג יותר מדאי על מה שהיה בו גורם רעה לעצמו [ברייתא ברכות דף ס"ב ע"א] ולמת [כפי' הרא"ש בפ"ג דמ"ק כי הוא למת למזכרת עון].

the TaZ explains the difference between הוספה and הפלגה to be what would be so obvious for the Mes to do had he ever had the opportunity, as opposed to inventing ma she'ein bo. bein kach u'bein kach, the halacha remains as pertinent as ever to our discussion.

Anonymous said...

To Anon, Sun. Dec. 14 7:57 --

Can you please elaborate the mayse of the Rebbe Rashab and R' Chaim, l'toeles haKor'im - if you don't mind..

V'Todah M'Rosh!

burech said...

To all the Lubavitchers:
I myself mentioned the reason for Lubavitch not being maspid,BEFORE, Yoshe Kalb et all the other kool aiders, see the sequence above.
What riled me was the Tzig (and this as an example of most Lubavitchers)had never,ever asked himself why Lubavitch sought to be "kliger" than the whole world.

Anonymous said...

I have to say that I am shocked at the level of animosity and oppositeness of ahavas yisroel that exists. I am a Lubavitcher, third generation on shlichus, I was taught to respect every yid no matter what.

I respect your minhagim and the right to have your hashkafa, although I may disagree. Why can't you do the same?

Arthur said...

"What riled me was the Tzig (and this as an example of most Lubavitchers)had never,ever asked himself why Lubavitch sought to be "kliger" than the whole world"
What a bunch of hogwash.If anyone is trieng to be "kliger vi der gantze velt" it's you.Who pray tell "iz der gantze velt"? de Litvakes? This has been a minhag among most major Chassideshe kreizen for generations.The only mistake that Tzig made was stating that not being maspid is only a minhag Chabad.Even if that were true that how does it make "Lubavitcher klige ve der gantze velt"? Your blatent hatred for Chabad is so obvious that se shtinked fun kop.Stop making an ass out of yourself by balbering this inane issue.

burech said...

Arthur
I'm not going to debate you.
You make things up.
You know nothing about the minhogim in chasidishe circles.

Anonymous said...

Reb Chaim Oizer Marinovsky(original from Rachmistrivker Chasidim)) wries in his Al Aivoisinie a sharfe sipur that Reb Shlome Karliner was in a town when a Jew was hung by antisemites and his death saved the jews from the counties around from some libel, Reb Shlome glanced on the hung person and said he is hanging with a glee of Hisnasous, meaning that he feels a sliver of hisnasous since he knows that people are thanking him on the self sacrifice and he saved many lives, its a sharfe story that a misnaged or some hungarian chosid will never chap

Anonymous said...

Burech
Do you know the Minhag Yisroel Torah or the Nitai gavriel by heart? Every chasidus has there minhagim in print from Pittsburgh to Plattsburgh

Fred said...

reading this all over, I am sorry to say but they are right...

You need to do your homework before you post.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Fred

who's "they," and what are they right about?

burech said...

Anonymous 10:48
You "understand" that silly story you told about a yid who was killed al kidush Hashem?
You are missing basic "da'as"

Tzig
Fred meant to tell you that you are a grubbeh am ho'oretz who is clueless about real or naarishe Lubavitcher minhogim.
If you are going to mention a strange (one of many..)Chabadsker "minhag" at least do the basic homework to know why.That's what Fred meant

Hirshel Tzig said...

נו נו ברוכ'ל לעב
רעד זיך איין

Dov Bear said...

>>Burech and those like him are why there NEVER will be true achdus for longer than a week, even after tragedies like we just witnessed.

If the tragedies would have happened to Jews outside of Chabad--would you have cared? But that is not really the IMPORTANT issue: The IMPORTANT issue is that you are devisive, and using the kedoshim to avoid the consequences of your confrontational remarks is juevenile.

Arthur writes:
>>I ,however have a question for them.Where does the term kiruv "richokim" come from? Does it go back to the times of the GR"A? Which so called "gedailey Yisroel" coined this phrase that smacks of arrogance and gases haruach.Who has the audacity to judge who is korev and who "rochok".Is it us or the Ribono Shel Olom?

This is coming from a man who wrote that Rav Shach is "worse than Hitler" and the "tzror layehudim." After lying about this all over the blogosphere, he still refuses to own upto his evil sins. THAT is arrogance.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Fred

Homework? what homework? I never asked where the minhag came from, It was self-understood why. I just made mention of the fact that the result was that the niftar was almost not cried for. Along came hate-mongers like Burech made it into a charade of zealotry and hate.

Anonymous said...

I think its a mistake for Chabad to call its detractors hate mongers. I have seen so much hatred in Arthur's remarks (even consequences spelled out by Chazal as "crazy") that it is obvious that its incorrect to suggest that hate is a one-way street.

Hirshel Tzig said...

The difference is simple, Arthur reacts to unsolicited hate from the real haters. A post about a Lubavitcher minhag that was supposed to go virtually unnoticed should NOT have turned into a hatefest of Lubavitch for sticking to their time-honored minhogim. THAT was hate.

burech said...

"Twisty

is it a din in the niftar or in the maspid? די נפק"מ איז פשוט"

You show your ignorance again.
The gemoreh feers ois that it's "yikreh deshcivy" for the dead persons sake.
"It was self-understood why."
You are a liar.It was not self understood.You had no idea why.

burech said...

"time-honored minhogim."
Lol.
Like "the time honored" minhag to write "sh'oh chamishis" although it's at a totally different time???

Milhouse said...

En hochi nami. It's been observed for at least 40 years, if not more — how much longer does it need before it can be called time-honored?

Anonymous said...

The difference is simple, Arthur reacts to unsolicited hate from the real haters.

>>Aside from the comment of one poster at the very begining of the threat, there was absolutely no "hate" in the otherwise innocenet conversation Arthur had with a completely unrelated poster. If there is hate, it is to be found in the unilateral attacks and the leitzonus exhibited in Arthur's vile and contemptible comments.

>>A post about a Lubavitcher minhag that was supposed to go virtually unnoticed should NOT have turned into a hatefest of Lubavitch for sticking to their time-honored minhogim. THAT was hate.

I think they are both hateful. Which is why I made my comment: Hate is clearly on both sides. To brand one side as a "hater" is innaccurate and possibly hateful, as well.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Burech

I was talking to people with an IQ higher than a cucumber. For you takkeh it was very complicated, that's why you brought a Gemoro that has no connection to what I said...

Anonymous said...

Dovbear
Whats the meaning of Tzoreir Yehdim?

Anonymous said...

Chaimshmeel
Where did you hear the story of Reb Eizel and the monument ?

BTW, that in Kelem they didn't put no Meitzave whatsoever, And even Rav Dessler didn't want to put 1 on his wifes grave.

Arthur said...

I come from a long line of Vorker and Alexander chassidim as well as Lubavitcher chassidim so I definitely know what I am talking about.I repeat.In most major chassideshe kreisen the minhag is NOT to be maspid for the reasons already given.Call me what you will and accuse of what you will but it does not change the facts on the ground.Whether I said said what I am accused of saying about Maran meBnai Brak has absolutely no relevence to this discussion.

Arthur said...

" If there is hate, it is to be found in the unilateral attacks and the leitzonus exhibited in Arthur's vile and contemptible comments."
"unilateral attacks" and "leitzonus"?Is that what the professional haters now call a refutation of their unfounded ameratzedike attacks on Lubavitch and Tzig.You want to attack me go ahead but lets not put on this mask of profound innocence about something simple that was written by Tzig and turning it into a hate Lubavitch agenda.

Anonymous said...

>>Whether I said said what I am accused of saying about Maran meBnai Brak has absolutely no relevence to this discussion.

Your dishonesty is despicable.

Anonymous said...

>>the professional haters

The only hater here is you.

Anonymous said...

to my knowledge most chasidim have the minhag of not being maspid.

and as stated, it is to avoid tzar that might befall the niftar if one lie of praise is said about him/her.

Accordingly many niftarim in Satmar or other places where hespedim are said write in their will not be maspid, and speakers should only be מעורר to תשובה

I recall that the Tzelemer Rav forbade hespeydim for him for this reason.

As for the halacha If my memory is working I think it does't say that a hesped must be conducted בפני המת, thats why hespedim -as such- are done at the sholoshim וכדומה or at the הקמת מצבה.

But at the levaya most chasidim avoid any hespedim for anybody.

As for myself Tzig knows that I have sharp critisim on contemporary chabad but the litvaks here again and again show that they are totally ignorant on minhagim and on so many other matters. its really stunning.

Yosef 718

bpunbound said...

TT,

If the Minhag is predicated on the belief of the one making the Hesped that his words can be Mi'Tzar the Neshama, then what's the difference of the 'party' affiliation of the one lying in the box?

And, BTW, Chabad DOES say Tachanun on Yoma Helula.

fred said...

that was supposed to go virtually unnoticed

lol lol

Hirshel Tzig said...

Fred
what's so LOL?

bahaltener said...

The minhag not to make hespeidim is based on Kabolo and was practiced not only by Chabad.