Friday, July 8, 2011

YOSEF SHUBERT AND HIS PROBLEM (Guest Post)



It seems Yosef Shubert has a big problem, well, probably more than one, but we speak of what we know.... How can he revise history without everyone catching on?

Earlier this week he put together for Matzav.com a collection of oft-repeated (but never sourced) anecdotes supposed to ‘prove’ to us that his Hero – Rav E.M. Shach – really loved all Yidden. Really, even when he accused them of heresy, when he forbade interaction with them, when he blamed them for bringing another holocaust (r”l) upon us, when he derided their Torah study as a “sword upon the necks of the yeshivos”, when his only verifiable comments about any other group of Yidden were harsh criticism and vicious attacks, Yosef Shubert wants you to know: Rav Shach loved all Jews. When RS wrote that the Rav, R’ Yoshe Ber Soleveitchik was a “heretic who is guilty of indoctrinating the masses with heresy”, when he accused Chabad Chasidim and their Rebbe of idolatry, when he proclaimed secular Israelis “not really Jewish ”, when he proclaimed the Sephardim to be “not fit for leadership positions” and when he viciously attacked Rabbi Yehuda Levy, Yosef Shubert wants to make sure you know the facts: RS really loved every Jew – really.

Just in case the reader still harbors any doubt about the great love of RS for all Jews, in case one actually reads through his published letters and sees the attacks and angry rants, or listens to his recorded speeches and hears him heaping scorn on all types of Yidden, fear not – Yosef Shubert is here to explain how it’s all really love! So the question is, WHO is Yosef Shubert, and how does he know about all this ‘love’ that never seemed to make it into RS’s writings or talks, and has been left to various defenders and apologists to ‘explain’ to us…? How can Shubert tell us as he does in his latest screed on Matzav that RS “was the biggest oheiv Yisroel of the last generation” when there exists no evidence of this, and much evidence to the contrary?!

If we read Shubert's article on Matzav.com, the answer seems very simple. We know that RS was a lover of shalom and pursuer of peace because Shlomo Lorencz said so!! Shubert tells us that “Rav Shach did not bear rancor against any person, and would forgive all those who insulted him,” again with no proof of any type. Yet even if it IS true, it seems that RS would need to be begging forgiveness from all those HE insulted, not the other way around? Although Shubert signs on as a rabbi, he doesn’t support any of his statements with Torah sources, choosing instead to simply preach the “Torah and true mesora” as he sees it. Doesn’t Shubert know that that one who claims to be speaking for Torah needs to show “mina hani mili d’omar kroh”?!! Shubert has an unfortunate habit it seems, in his kana’us for defending his version of authentic mesora, for playing a bit loose with the truth. A while back Shubert got very angry at the kovod given to the founder of Touro College, Rabbi Dr. Lander after his petira. Shubert claimed that Lander had gone against an explicit letter signed by, among others, Reb Moshe and Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky. Problem is, there never was such a letter. The letter Shubert based that angry attack on was specifically addressing the prospect of opening a Touro in Israel – but that didn’t stop Shubert from misleading people. Are we seeing more vintage Shubert now with this latest screed – somebody should tell him that in the internet age lies are exposed quickly. Time for a different job, Rabbi Shubert?

157 comments:

Anonymous said...

There is distinction to be made that is always lost on present day Chabadsker and other left wing Chasidim. A Hanhogo that employs strident speech re Shitos etc has nothing to do with dealing with a fellow Jew on an individual and personal level. ( Don't bother responding in the usual shrill way-like I said its lost on you guys. Your havono in Ahavas Yisrol simplistic and superficial). To fight a derech or a movement in harsh terms doesn't make a soyne yisrol. The lack of Tzdoko VoChesed does. Btw RS said Thilim for the LR during his illness.

Anonymous said...

your post is great i was puzzled why on the rebbes yartzit of gimel tamuz did shubert and matzav print such a terrible full of hatred recording and article..

Matzav is as guilty as shubert so i took them off my favorites...

I suggest everyone do also

Anonymous said...

i find it hilarious and the biggest proof that yesivaleit point out that RS said Tehillim for the LR. yeah, I would hope he did. I'm certainly not saying anything against RS, as he was obviously a great TC and I wasn't there to understand the situation, but the fact that tehillim was said for another yid he was ill is brought as a raya of brotherly love is quite telling, if not on the rov, than the people who brought the raya

Tam said...

Rav Shach wasn't right about Lubavitch and messianism?The Vaad hakohol election results show that at least half of CH are messianists and who knows how many more all over the world. So how was Rav Shach mistaken about Lubavitch? You mean Moshiach is already here? What about Mumbai?What about the three girls blown up while doing mivtzah neshek in Netanyah?What about the shliach who was killed travelling to Eilat? What about the tragic news of young people passing away in the prime of their lives that we read on chabad websites all the time.R"L.What about "bila hamoves lonetzach?"Isn't that what Moshiach is all about?So who's crazy and who's normal?

Anonymous said...

Rav Shach ZL is considered the great nemesis of the LR Z"L. His public stance was created by his rebbe the Brisker Rov. When Bosi LiGani came out the Rov read though it and said"a tzudreyter er hotzach ayngeret er iz Moshiach!" I heard it from R Nochum Bergman A"H as did countless others over the years. RS was not the originator but the messenger.

grainom said...

YOU, read matzav?! litze letzanus, im shocked!

Pinny Lip... said...

1.Matzav/Shubert's biggest hero is R'Schach...after Derrik Jeeder. Like R'Schach is Pinny Lipshits's biggest hero...after Rush Limbaugh. Like Chabad style Ahavas Yisroel is Hershel Tzig's biggest hero...after his blog filled with cursing people out.
Get my drift?
2. Re. Matzav/Shubert against Lander cus he was going against R' yaakov and R' moshe. Why is such stupidity even said over?! Matzav/Shubert spit in the gedolims face by every post and comment they blog. How come the blogging-yeshivish, brisker-Yankee fan, big chupp- big pay'os guys aren't screaming about the kavod of the gedolim that have spoken against their own blog??
3."WHO is Yosef Shubert(?)" Good question. maybe PL or Hissiger know?
4.RS loved every jew, regardless of all the nonsense, fact- screwing, and ignorance you crookedly write.
By your book, any Gadol who kept the generation in check, who had people petrified to screw around with out holy religion, of course it was not out of their love for Judaism and our nation! it was all hate I assume. Is that what you think of the Brisker Rav, the Satmar Rav and the Steipler? If so why stop there, how about R Akiva Eiger and the Vilna goan? oh and why not the Rambam while your at it?
Foolishness.

Anonymous said...

there is a tape of rav gifter where he basically says the same, meaning that rav shach felt the need to lambast shitos and movements, but his love for every individual of klal yisroel was very very real.

i believe its on the tape titled diversity in orthodoxy

Moright said...

As, someone who is far from R Shachs brand of judaism I can attest to the great live R Shach felt toward every yid.I had the good fortune to go in to him about a very personal issue and again I am visibly not from his camp and I poured out my heart to him the great pain that was visible on his face as years yes years crept out of his old eyes.And the ingest and action he took to help me out in my plight was more then a father.So please don't bring up his ideological differences he had with people.The man for those that new him were sweet like sugar.

Fed Up In Peoria said...

Moright said...

Are you sure you're not Satmar? your writing is incomprehensible. last time I complained, someone wrote that I don't understand yiddish, maybe now the reason is that I don't understand English

Vaboilnik, 4,734 miles from Peoria

dovy said...

if you had ever bothered to go see Rav Shach you would know that he loved all jews.
your claim that he degraded sefardim is patently ridiculous as he started shas because he was the only gadol who sought to better the plight of the downtrodden sefardim.

Duvid Hersh said...

So here come the brainwashed defenders of the sina and kinah of Rav Shach - yes, unfortunately he had these failings as anyone can see. We know about his hate and scorn because HE wrote these things and they are printed in HIS own letters.
Why try and excuse him calling so many other rabbonim 'kofrim' r''l?!
Just say that he was a big talmid chuchem who made a very serious mistake. His letters make that very clear.

Anonymous said...

R Yossi Raab the gabbe of R Mottele Vizhniitzer Lrf"sh told me when RM visited RS RS said over divrey Toire from "Der Ruziner" lchvoydoy when learning RM is an einikl. RM had his Einiklach go get brochos from RS. RM when he was well was very agile and quick and was headed for the door-not wanting pictures taken. A big no no with RM. Rav Shach ZL looked up with smiling eyes over his glasses (something those that were zoyche will never forget) "avu iz der Rebbe antlofn? ich vill im bagleytn biz in droysn". And RM returned.(RS was maybe the only man on G-d's green earth ever to get RM to change his mind..) And yes-there's a beautiful photo of RS walking him outside. "RM kansed" his Chasidim and they couldn't be present inside since they tried to stop the visit for political reasons. Anyone can hear this from RYR himself.

Richtig un klor said...

Rabbi Shach was a godol who made a big mistake (or 2 or 3 or...) but Yossi Shubert is just an idiot, plain and simple. All of us who know him personally know what a sputtering fool he usually is, so its no surprise that he wrote such a stupid and immature piece.
In this article on matzav you can see just about all the teyreh that Yossi Shubert knows....

shivim p. said...

Can any of the Anonymous posters here actually address the points that this article made so well?

1. If RS was such an oihev-yisroel, how did he spread so much hate against other yidden (even if he thought they were wrong)?
Lo zu haderech, rabboisai!

2. If RS was not even a posek, how did he dare 'poskin' that so many great rabbonim were guilty of heresy?
'Mehechan dantuni' needs to be answered here, but he never justified his attacks al-pi-halocho.

3. If anybody thinks he was right, don't you wonder why Reb Moshe, Reb Yakov or any of the real poskei hador never said anything like his vicious attacks against other groups ?

Somebody please answer these questions to the point - I don't want to believe that RS hated so many Jews, but the evidence seems to be overflowing.

matzav.com said...

Matzav is obviously part of the hate network here. Why would they print such obvious garbage instead of finding a guy who can actually write something constructive, not like this idiot Shubert.

matzav.com said...

And shame on matzav for promoting a guy like Shubert who is a known liar. Shkoiach to whoever wrote this piece and pointed it out.

yoni3 said...

Yonoson Rosenblum in Yerusholayim is another amhooretz trying to fool everybody with these lies. Maybe he should just go back to Yale where they know how to deal with repackaged lies dressed up as 'research'.

Anonymous said...

No intelligent person would accuse the LR Z"L of being a soyne yisrol because of things he said about those want to give back land in EY. Even chastising those that he felt weren't doing enough. Using the harshest terms about them. There are tapes videos and pamphlets as well. Its understood it was ideological. The difference is that if someone goes up against the Rebbe a Chabadsker can only reach one conclusion. It must be that that man is virulent anti semite. I made the point a while ago that ironically those that are self proclaimed oyhavey yisrol are found to be wanting in tzdoko vochesed and those billed as soyney yisrol oftentimes turn out to be very great in ahavas yisrol. I just want to thank Rabbi Twersky of New Square for having handed me a demonstation of this very point on a silver platter.

BelzFinAMool said...

My own personal Knei Midah for the type of statements supposedly attributed to REMMS is: What would the Chofetz Chaim have said?

Too unrealistic?, CC was too great a Tzadik? OK then, what would RM Feinstein have said?

This is what Brisker Ruv taught REMMS? Somehow, it seems unlikely that R Chaim Brisker would have taught REMMS this hadrocho.

Anonymous said...

Fed up -

Stop complaining and get yourself a vocabulary or two. Then you might not be so fed up.
Moright is no Satmarer he suffers from typos. The satmarer mangling of the language is very reckgnizable. Though not fed up it does get on my nerves. ( Or as they say in MUNroe "its going on the nerves" )

Anon3 said...

Deja vu.

Chossidlite said...

I am a heimishe sefard davening bekeshe wearing yid who in years past had a rebbe who I would not make a move without.And being a little open minded on one of my visits to artzeinu hakedoisha I decided to pay a visit to R Shach who in those years was all people spoke about in large sections of klal yisroel.And Tzig what can I tell you the love and caring you felt when speaking to him was something I hadn't felt since my late father had passed.And his love for children was as if they were his einiklach.Listen without getting involved in ideology these are facts anyone that ever met him will attest to this as have many of his chassidishe talmidim who were some of his biggest mikuruvim (R Meir Heizler incidently my sons rosh yeshiva comes to mind) who in years past had a rebbe who I would not make a move without.And being a little open minded on one of my visits to artzeinu hakedoisha I decided to pay a visit to R Shach who in those years was all people spoke about in large sections of klal yisroel.And Tzig what can I tell you the love and caring you felt when speaking to him was something I hadn't felt since my late father had passed.And his love for children was as if they were his einiklach.Listen without getting involved in ideology these are facts anyone that ever met him will attest to this as have many of his chassidishe talmidim who were some of his biggest mikuruvim (R Meir Heizler incidently my sons rosh yeshiva comes to mind)

Anonymous said...

Fed up.
You're not starting to understand what for a problem we are having by the writing. In the young years we are being taught only on Yiddish. When the english teacher is coming we close him the lights and throw him orange peel. So around we remain an ignorant. But we want show out for the world our smartness so we are writing even it doesn't make for you sense.

That- Mr Fed Up is a fine example of what passes for Engish among the indigenous peoples of Monroe and Wllbrg exotically untouched by time and modernity. Living in areas largely unexplored by western anthropologists they continue their unique trible existence

Moright said...

Sorry just saw my printed comment and realized my smartphone spell check was playing games with my words so hers my comment edited: As, someone who is far from R Shachs
brand of judaism I can attest to the great
love R Shach felt toward every yid.I had
the good fortune to go speak to him about a
very personal issue (and again I am visibly
not from his camp )and as I poured out my
heart to him the great pain that was
visible on his face as tears yes tears
crept out of his old eyes was something I will never forget.And the intrest
and action he took to help me out with my sorry
plight was more then a father would . So please
don't bring up the ideological differences
he had with people.The man for those
that knew him was sweet like sugar.

dlz said...

Hershel:
What is the contradiction between criticism and ahavas Yisroel? When you criticize something your children do, or even scream at them, do you love them less? In fact, criticism can be seen as a reflection of how much someone cares about someone else.

Anonymous said...

....and I'm sure Eliyohu havnovi was also a sonei yisroel...

bobov chusid said...

as stated here at circus tent, this fact twisting and rewriting of history was done well in the past, for example the belz writers of today want to potray to the masses in their brainwash magazine as if the whole world turned around belz, they had a good PR machine, thats it. nothing else except for swampy muddy dirt roads.

example #2 - in ohr hatzofohn "the sadigere rebbi shlit"a said that as a 'boy' the belz rav shook his hand without a towel, considered a big zchus ect." he got bar mitzvah 1941 belz rav came to israel 1944!!!! fact from fiction.
no they did not meet prior to israel! lie after lie after lie.
if belz can do it in the open while the sources are alive, why not the litvish?

in bobov you will never ever find a single story that was ever touched by a drop.

Anonymous said...

this is so dopey. You are still obsessing over this? If you are so concerned about historical accuracy, you should quote Rav Shach from his original statements in lashon hakodesh or Yiddish, and provide links.

Michoel

Anonymous said...

"To fight a derech or a movement in harsh terms doesn't make a soyne yisrol. The lack of Tzdoko VoChesed does. Btw RS said Thilim for the LR during his illness."

well put,an example is with the Satmar Rebbe which wasn't considred an "Oihev Yisroel" was the only Rebbe in the last generation which they had to make an appeal for the vast amount of debt he personallt left because of all the Tzadakah V'chesed he did with ALL peoplenot only his followers.

We know what the Daas Baal habayis is on Ahavas Yisroel.... just take a closer look into it based on the above and other facts.

George Orwell said...

The manifesto of an "Ohaiv Yisroel"and those that basked in his "Ahava".
On Rabbi Joseph Baer Soloveitchik;

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim (Bnei Brak, 5848 -5755), vol. 4 pages 36-40. [RS’s article is full] “of things that it is forbidden to hear”. See also ibid. p. 107 [in reference to RS’s work: “the book contains heresy, in the literal sense of the word. The mind is boggled by such a sight”.

It must be emphasized that Rabbi Shach was strongly apposed to communal disharmony, as he himself asserted many times. Yet, in such a situation he felt compelled to speak out in order to safeguard the Jewish heritage. For Rabbi Shach it was better to cause ruptures in the Jewish community than to allow thousands of Jewish hearts and minds to be poisoned by RS heresy.


On Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz;

Rabbi Shach, Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 65-7. [In a letter written two days before Rosh HaShanah in the year 5749]: “…All his works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro) and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement.”

See also ibid. vol. 5 pp. 163. There, Rabbi Shach declares that it will be impossible for Rabbi Steinsaltz to do Teshuvah (repent) and make right the colossal damage that his edition of the Talmud has wrought. See also ibid. p. 28-9. Rabbi Shach explained that he was not lacking in Ahavas Yisrael.On the contrary he was saving the souls of all the Jewish people who had the potential to be influenced by the impure works of rabbi Steinsaltz.


On Rabbi Shlomo Goren;

Rabbi Shach Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, vols.1-2, pp.73-4; vol. 6, pp.78-9. “He [Rabbi Goren] is not a Rabbi and his Halachik rulings are worth nothing. One may not eat food manufactured under his supervision or carrying his seal of approval. He belongs outside the camp (michutz la-machaneh mo’shavo)…he is worse than the Reformers. One must mourn for the Sefer Torah that was burned”.

Rabbi Shach acknowledged that Rabbi Goren claimed that he was not violating the law and had authored a book in which he justifies his opinion. However, although he himself had not read it, those who had, had informed him that it was no more than “a joke, falsification of facts and lies”.

Rabbi Yehudah Levi;

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vol. 1, pp. 107-8. [Book expressing ‘Hirschian’ philosophy was banned and the author severely chastised for expressing views that are held to be wrong in certain circles.]


On Religious Zionists;

Michtavim U-Ma’amarim vols.1-2, pp.75-6. [Although Rabbi Shach was most passionate in his views on the secular Israelis, he also inveighed heavily against religious Zionists (or ‘quasi aggudists’: “agguda’im le-machatzeh”). Rabbi Shach once said:] “I am compelled to tell you”, that they are essentially no different. It is “the same pot” of Tereifah meat; “the only difference is that their [the religious Zionist’s] pot is covered with a knitted yarmulke (Kippah Serugah)!” Religious Zionists have done nothing for the benefit of Torah causes in Israel. They are void of Torah and the fear of Heaven and are not capable of producing any gedolim. Any success that we – the Torah world have – is despite, not because, of them. Those quasi-aggudists who harbor pro-Zionistic sympathies may be observant Jews but they are guilty of Shittuf! (‘metaphorical idolatry’). They include Yeshivah high schools in the ambit of their interests – “Oy! What a sharp sword on the soul of the Yeshivos!”

Of course there are also his vile diatribes against Rabbi Menachem Kasher, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohain Kook, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Rabbi M.M. Schneerson, and…...

Anonymous said...

Who's the author of this guest post?

shmuel said...

Well,well..
Isn't attacking a leader revered by many thousands going down a slippery slope?
See, if you attack other peoples rabbis, you as a Chabad follower, open yourself for attack too.
I think an objective observer would have enough critiscm on the Lubavitcher legacy and some of the followers.

S. said...

טוֹבָה תּוֹכַחַת מְגֻלָּה מֵאַהֲבָה מְסֻתָּרֶת.

See, he had both sides covered.

yoni said...

Regarding Steinsaltz, Rav Shach was joined by:

Rav Elyashiv
Tzitz Eliezer
Rav Shteinman
Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz
Rav Chaim Kreiswirth
Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg
Rav Vosner
Rav Nissim Karelitz

Check it out:

http://www.yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=115

Anonymous said...

Regarding Steinsaltz, Rav Shach was joined by:

Rav Elyashiv
Tzitz Eliezer
Rav Shteinman
Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz
Rav Chaim Kreiswirth
Rav Scheinberg
Rav Nissim Karelitz
Rav Vosner

Check it out:

http://www.yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=115

Anonymous said...

rav shach said that the baal hatanya would thank him for saving his people, so he meant it for the good.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Goren, Rav Shach was joined by:

Steipler
Rav Elyashiv
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
Rav Chaim Shmulevitz
Rav Yechezkel Abramsky
Gerrer Rebbe
Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro
Rav Y.M. Feinstein

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12319&st=&pgnum=26

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=33389&pgnum=8

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=28315&pgnum=36&hilite=

Anonymous said...

If you're interested in knowing exactly what the problem with Goren was, check out:

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/beshalach/BSH63features2.htm

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/TZV63features2.htm

yoni said...

Regarding Steinsaltz, Rav Gifter ZT"L also supported Rav Shach:

http://matzav.com/audio-rav-gifter-diversity-in-orthodoxy (Part 2)

Anonymous said...

"Rav Elyashiv
Tzitz Eliezer
Rav Shteinman
Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz
Rav Chaim Kreiswirth
Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg
Rav Vosner
Rav Nissim Karelitz"

And they were all silent on the recent occasion of RAS finishing his translation. If REMMS's ikul was so hamur how come there is no reiteration today nor any letter stating "Od omeid betokfo"? Could it be that these Rabbonim were dragged against their will by the peyos before? Could it be that they really disagreed at the time but were too afraid of being similarly megudafim befarhesia!?

yoni said...

Forgot a link regarding Goren:

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/mishpotim/MSH63features.htm

where is chabad said...

Hirshel,

I must conmpliment the popularity of you're blog.

where are all the Lubab's defending their stand against RS?

I never knew you ahd just a great Misnagdishe following. Keep it up !

bp said...

"Could it be that they really disagreed at the time but were too afraid of being similarly megudafim befarhesia!?"


Could it,maybe,efsher,eppes be...that you are a Lubavitcher, who would suspect such great people?

"

yoni said...

Shubert isn't being mechadesh anything. Check out the following:

"He had pure daas Torah. . . When a person is the embodiment of Torah and his whole being is immersed in Torah and he is totally removed from the matters of this world, and without any personal negios, and he has unlimited devotion to his fellow man, then he necessarily has daas Torah and is protected by Hakodosh Boruch Hu from failure. Such is the siyata deShmaya of a leader of Klal Yisroel, and such was the Rosh Yeshiva zt"l." – Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz (http://chareidi.org/archives5762/T62features.htm)

"His opinions and rulings were certainly literally daas Torah. . . Anyone who knew Rav Shach saw his gutkeit and his feinkeit. . . The Rosh Yeshiva was a combination of genius in knowledge and understanding of Torah, immense toiling in Torah, good middos and intelligence. He also had incredible mesirus nefesh. . ." - Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman (http://chareidi.org/archives5762/T62features.htm)

Rav Shmuel Berenbaum had wanted so much l’achar mei’ah v’esrim shanah to speak in learning with Rav Shach, and Rav Moshe Feinstein. But he was concerned that since they were tremendous tzadikim and had suffered greatly, he would not be put within their sphere in Shamayim. He felt he needed yesurim to reach their madreigah. (http://www.5tjt.com/news/read.asp?Id=1972)

Rav Yechezkel Levenstein once called Rav Shach the “greatest ba’al chessed of our generation” (Rabbi Elazar Menachem Man Shach ZT”L: Forever Available for Any and All by Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz. Prepared for publication by Yonoson Rosenblum. The Jewish Observer. October, 2007.)

yehupitz said...

who is the guest blogger?

whatif said...

could it be that steinsaltz is so off the radar right now with the much better translations that have since been published and with no one in the oilam hatorah touching it after all the gedoilim speaking ot against him that a kol koreh now would be counterproductive

yoni said...

Regarding the heter for a gadol to speak out strongly against others in these types of situations, check out this tshuva from Rav Yosef Yedid HaLevi (Shu"t Shearis Yosef: Volume 4: Page 432) (this tshuva was written regarding R' Kook):

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22671&st=&pgnum=441

Check out also what Rav Zev Leff Shlita has to say about this topic:

http://www.rabbileff.net/shiurim/ask/index.htm #1775

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yoni

I'm still waiting for the apology...

Fred - dreck said...

Surprise of all surprises! To come here to see something positive and warm (and pushut) about Tzig's favorite Godel.

On a serious note: an ice cream truck showed up to my bungalow colony yesterday, that sold soft ice cream. Since there was no hashguchuh on the truck, I thought that the prudent think to do would be to voice my concerns to the proprieters directly - just to be sure.

To make a long story short: I ask the fellow in the truck, who happened to have a blue shirt and a never-touched-beard, if the milk was cholov yisroel. I can't believe the response I got. Instead of answering me like a gentelman (and a good businessman) he looked at me and hissed "What! You think we are goyim".

I can't figure out why he reacted so strongly, and did not respect the frumkeit (!!!) and a fellow Jew. Strange people, those people.

Anonymous said...

What would the Chofetz Chaim have said?"

Mr B F Amool- R Yeruchem Gorelick ZL said many times in droshos brabim in S Fallsburg when the Chofetz Chaim got a letter from R Kook (RY was a very close talmid and was present) he took his sleeve and slid it off the table to the floor. He then said "kook pook shmook". In belz -Fin Amool- I believe it would not have been a shocking thing to hear something like that from R Y D ZL.

Anonymous said...

This is what Brisker Ruv taught REMMS? Somehow, it seems unlikely that R Chaim Brisker would have taught REMMS this hadrocho."

Er veys sheyn tzu mestn.

Fehnstir said...

Why do you guys and the Stoliner's say "zug" a niggun? What's pshat in that?

Anonymous said...

Anon
"and other left wing Chasidim"
who decides who his left ? who right?
is this in the protocols of zion?
"Btw RS said Thilim for the LR during his illness."
it is definitely a lie, he was a professional Tzorer Hayehudim, lately some guys decided to rehabilitate his image.

Anonymous said...

Tom
"Rav Shach wasn't right about Lubavitch and messianism?"
no he was wrong,
Proof,
Moshiachists in Ch go on for years and nobody went to the pope or to the imam to convert yet.
Shabsi Tzvi was Mikel in kol hatorah kulo, and converted to Islam, so far all of Ch are medakdek Kala Kebechamura, the shulchan orech guides them fully, So why did that Tzorer Hayshudim holler for? I would look at the votes in Ch from a different angle , whom did they take for a rav? a Priest? Imam? MO Rabbi? or a Talmud Chochem that knows Kol haTorah kulo? that will not embarrass CH by non of the rabonim in a town as Lakewood.
Enough of the lies, RS was a Tzoirer Hayehudim.

anonymous 1:18 said...

What kind of business is this? An anonymous "guest poster" attacks Rabbi Shubert by name and by extension Horav Shach as well and hides behind the mask of anonymity? Why should anyone take this seriously? The "guest poster" belongs off the bimeh and needs to be seated with the regular rif-raff commenters like myself in the back of the beis-medrash.What's so impressive about an unsigned screed against another Jew and a Godol beYisroel?This is like someone giving musser to a congregation while he's wearing a mask on his face.He wants to be anonymous? Let him put it in the comments section like everyone else.

Anonymous said...

Tam
didn't the Chofetz Chaim write many times that it is Ikvese deMeshicha, and the Shoah happened?
So what is the argument that RS had the right to categorize a thousands upon thousansd of Jews in to Menachie Yayin?
Why? because they believe that there Rebbe is Moshiach? argued some sick argument about sleeping in Suakah? the Rema writes that most Klal Yisroel does not sleep in Sukah?

Anonymous said...

Dlz
"In fact, criticism can be seen as a reflection of how much someone cares about someone else."
but when you ostracize your son to label him in a gigantic baseball field as Yad Eliyou as a Menasech Yayin you are Roshe and Sonie Yisroel

Anonymous said...

Anon 1;18
This Menuval shubert that gets up ot of the blue on the Yomie Dhehulule of Rebinie Hakodesh Vehatohar Ziecher Tzadik Vekodesh Livrocho, should be answered in any shape or form, with a face or with out a face.

Anonymous said...

Chosidlite
"And Tzig what can I tell you the love and caring you felt when speaking to him was something I hadn't felt since my late father had passed.And his love for children was as if they were his einiklach."
who denies that?
but he was after all a Tzorier Hayehudim that send brigades to beat up families like Rav Gieniman (last time I checked , did not declare himself as a messiah)
Reb Mechel Fienstien(last time I checked , did not declare himself as a messiah)
Reb Duvid Povarsky(last time I checked , did not declare himself as a messiah)
Reb Ovadia Yossef( last time I checked , did not declare himself as a messiah)
Reb Nissen Karelitz(last time I checked , did not declare himself as a messiah)
the Brisker family. etc....
it is all people that did not roll under the steamroller of his evil regime.After the histalkes of the Shah, his goons can not make peace with the situation of their hate grip on the Yeshiva world,they are more busy beating there own Yeshiva Liet, then Chabad.

Michoel said...

To Yoni and all the other lying idiots:
Rav Gifter never called other rabbonim "kofrim" - never.
Almost all the gedolim of his time were against Rav Kook, but none of them called him a "kofer" or said its nforbidden to talk to him. No, that kind of stupidity was exclusively Rabbi Shach's.
RS behaved in a vicious and crazy manner that no godol ever has before. Ditto for the Lubavicher Rebbe, he took strong stands on many issues but NEVER accused other rabbonim of "kfirah" or the like. Only a maniac like RS did that.

yoni said...

"Almost all the gedolim of his time were against Rav Kook, but none of them called him a "kofer" or said its forbidden to talk to him."

Check this out:

http://yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=83

Anonymous said...

Yoni
this guy is a liar, nobody out of Willi and KJ takes him seriously

Anonymous said...

who owns Matzav?

yoni said...

Michoel, have you ever seen:

-The Hasagos of the Raavad on the Rambam

-R' Yaakov Emden's sefarim regarding R' Yonoson Eybeschutz

Anonymous said...

If you count the times the Belzer Ruv RYD the Minchas Eluzor the Tsheshenover Ruv and Koloshitzer Ruv HYD( and many other Galicianer Hungarian Rebbes and Rabbonim) emloyed the term Apikoyress to describe Jews that were "shtraml bekishe" Jews. Or how they broadened the list of offences that would qualify one for it you'll find RS to have been quite gentle. He never cursed yet the afformetioned group did Shelt.

Anonymous said...

Listening to his hate message that has no source in torah, just holloe rethoric,
He argues that the Rebbe has to be dragged to the inquisition chamber for not participating in the Gius Bones, Chinuch Atzmai,
Did the Satmar ruv participate in chinuch Atzmai?
Did the old skverer participate in any demonstration but one?
Did Rav Elieshev Participate when he was in the Reform temple of Hiechel shloma?
For this ridiculous arguments he his instigating his raging crowds, like a priest in his Shtetel preaching to the pitchfork peasants,
Kill the Jew...
if he is a Ohev Yisroel, then Tami Lapid of Meretz is the holy Sasover

Anonymous said...

Reading the new book on Rav Gifter, it got me thinking; I got nostalgic for a Telshe that I only know through those candles they send me a week after Chanukah (with the pictures of boys from the stone age). You see, true a Telsher might be a little stiff/rigid by contemporary standards, he might enunciate his words (diction, syntax) in a way that grates under the skin – but still, you got to give them something. At least a Telsher is a Telsher; is (or was) part of a group, a team, actually had a Rebbe that he prays that his kids should emulate. His Rebbe wasn’t just a guy who knew how to learn better than the next guy, knows a couple of blatt, Shaar Daled if you’re lucky, but nothing else. IOW: his hasuguh and depth of neshamah hasn’t changed much since he sat by Avrum Yishua’s shiur. No, R, Gifter and Telshe b’chall, whether you believe that Reb Chaim Shtayn was really a ball moyphes or not, had depth, nuance, loyalty to a specific mehalach hachaim [not just being mivatel the velt – vedal – even though they did some of that too]. Just take a look at R’ Gifter’s stuff on Chumash, [ something that oddly that was sponsored by a graduating eighth grade class in Far Rockawy that donated their ‘yearbook’ money for the cause. VAKM”L] and you will see what I mean. It is not just a regular mussor vort recycled by Malkeil’s underpaid speech writer, if you get my drift.
Oh, yeh, the book. I will not get into if Rabbi Chee-lee Speiro was the right man for the job, particularly with the Telsher’s with their intellectual bend that will be reading this book. Personally, I think they should have went with Jonathan on this one, and made a book with impressive footnotes (citing which coffee room the maysah was said in) and long paragraphs. From what I understand, Reb Yonasan has his hands full, as he is already working on Artscroll’s bio of the late Philadelphia Rosh Yeshiva Zatzal, hence Rav Speero had his debut as an author of a long story.
With regards to the content of the book, it did manage to capture, somewhat of R’ Gifter’s uniqueness of both being a kanoy, and someone who would cry at the sight of some flower, of some sort. It also, conveyed somewhat, that R’ Gifter was very “brayt” and wasn’t ashamed to quote explicitly from Izbitz [Reb Elya Meir, z”l, cited the Sfas Emes publically] and how he encouraged his congregants of the Chabad of Waterbury to make the trek into Brooklyn for the farbrengens, and how he saved Artscroll gemara’s from doom, etc. Yes, the book conveyed somewhat of what Rav Gifter was all about, although it omitted his imitable form of expressing his opinions on many of his contemporaries, kiyuduah.
IMHO, the biggest problem with this book was not just that is (glowingly?) published Rav Gifter’s criticism of hayntigeh yeshivaleit – although he NEVER voiced those critiques to the fargrepteh belly-patting, balhabatim. Or how they made a big deal over some speech he gave in a college that no one heard of, to an interesting crowd…. Whatever… my maind problem is simply this:
They had a golden opportunity to actually inspire the readers, to grow, and to emulate R’ Gifter in some way, his ameylus, yigiyuh, something. Oh no, they couldn’t do that; instead they stressed over and over again, that “Max” was already from the greatest in the world in his mere twenties!!! After that, it was just all on auto pilot (or the magnet from that mashal), and no mention of any yegiyah from the time he got married on… that’s it for now….

Ruvke said...

The site that is mentioned about Rav Kook ZTL is a Satmarer propaganda site aimed at Mizrachi in the infamous Natruna derech. Take it with ten grains of salt and some anti-nausea medication.Suffice it to say that the Hafetz Haim,the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe and the previous Gerer Rebbe were all among the greatest admirers of Rav Kook. So was Reb Isser Zalman Meltzer.

Anonymous said...

Where are the bnei teyreh to defend R Shach and his behavior. Does anybody have an answer al-pi-din; Where is the heter for spreading such hate against other groups and calling great leaders kofrim. The Rav was a kofer?!! Because some rosh-yeshiva who could never reach The Rav's shoes in torah said so?!
Somebody please explain this logically.
What was Rabbi Shachs heter and why did he never justify all his hateful statements?
Why was he the only one to attack like that?
Reb Moshe zt"l called the Lubavitcher Rebbe "hagaon hatzadik mi'lubavitch" and how dare RS say such disgusting things?
Excellent article whoever wrote it.

grainom said...

http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=23790

please explain this letter of the rebbe

Anonymous said...

I went over to the Matzav and checked out the video clip they have of REMMS. AAAIIEEEE!!!! My aching eyes and ears!!!! That was just embarrassing that someone can be allowed to act so totally unhinged in public. It is an utter bizui kovod to bnei toray everywhere that such demented ranting can be allowed unchecked in a holy asifah! And this is the man called Maran!? Sickening! Oy meh haya lonu!

Anonymous said...

funny that those who claim to be upset by Rav Shach's "hate" are all so full of unchecked frothing at the mouth hatred.

Leibel said...

Tzig,
You "supposedly" apologized for getting frum people in trouble because of the picture that was cropped out of Di Tzeitung, now you allow posters to call Rav S the worst names?
It's clear that you have no yiras shomayim

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know for sure that "Yosef Shubert" exists and is not a pen-name of someone we all know?

Anonymous said...

Liebel
"now you allow posters to call Rav S the worst names?"
does the Bizu Talmid Chochem of the shah of Bnie Berak(recycled by shustak and matzav)have to be answered appropriately?
or with chabad its a one way street?

Josh said...

This reminds me of my yeshiva days when we would take R Shach's Miktavim UMaamrim and scan the letters and pashkevils therein for the most vituperative melitzah you can imagine. One person even managed to emulate the style in a series of homemade pashkevilin which were hopefully limited to Purimtide.

Anonymous said...

"...now you allow posters to call [] the worst names?"

Feel the love, man! Feel the love! Nobody here accuses anyone of being "stuck on A"Z", "a loner", "grew up in Pariz". That last remark, BTW is a not-so-veiled reference to Niyuf. The Vaboylniker said all of these things in the video clip on the Matzav site. He owes a public apology to everyone he was ever Megadeif with such horrific terminology. And the Kever is not a Bais Manos!

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Belzer Ruv RYD the Minchas Eluzor the Tsheshenover Ruv and Koloshitzer Ruv HYD
from this whole list you only know for sure 2 people
Munkacher Ruv, who cursed left and right, I guess he had a rebishe inya, otherwise he made no sense.
Belzer Ruv RYD, was aggressive in his anti Zionist/modernity, but was not in the cursing business, the 2 others I don't know and you don't know.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"His public stance was created by his rebbe the Brisker Rov. "
he was not his Rebbe, he never learned in his yeshiva, he took the bus on Friday to travel to Reb Velvel to Red In Lernen.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"I heard it from R Nochum Bergman A"H as did countless others over the years. RS was not the originator but the messenger."
this story is a lie fabricated by the Mem Tes election, the lie was needed to pump up the new degel torah party. My youth I spent in Willi, every pashkevil and every tactic in the book of horrors was used on Chabad. I read them all I have seen them all. This lie was not used then, it was later produced by the infamous Gerlitz hayedouo leshimtzo,of Mechon Oirauiso, who wrote many pashkevilin for the sake of establishment of Degel Hatorah. He has a very creative mind, this lie is the weakest of his creation. He wrote much better fiction, for a sample,look in his hakdoma on the Grach on Shas.

Anonymous said...

anon

"When Bosi LiGani came out the Rov read though it"
who brought to him?
A chbadnik?
There was no fax yet, torah of the Rebbe traveled very slow,
Bosi Legani is based on a Mamar that all Rebiem said,the Rebbe just added on.
Did Brisker Ruv read all the Rebbes Sichas? did he read the Belzer Ruvs Torah every week?
Did he read Reb Chaim Mayers Torah too?
what a load of crap....

Anonymous said...

Anon
"a tzudreyter er hotzach ayngeret er iz Moshiach!"
I am not a expert in Litvisher Yiddish, but I have a feeling that the word "tzudreyter" is unterlander shprach

Anonymous said...

Anon
"His public stance was created by his rebbe the Brisker Rov."
from his public stance, you see how deep evil this RS was.
If I accept that the Brisker Ruv was his compass in his leadership decisions, then how come RS created a political party with Bnie torah as MK's? was not the Brisker ruv against it, ask his family
How come RS took funds for Yeshivahs from the Memsheleth Hakofrim? was not the BR against accepting funds? this are ironclad facts, not fabricated in Mem Tes.
Muz Men Zhogen, that "Mereshoim Yeitza Resha" and you make selective decisions.
Let me entertain for a minute, that the BR said Kaviyochel on the LR, what this hoaxers claim he said, then why kill the lunatic("tzudreyter)? Did Rav Shach believe that every lunatic("tzudreyter) is a Menasech Yayin or a Boyel Nidah? Did he holler at the Bies Meshogoim("tzudreyter) in BB with a megaphone you are Oivdie Avodah Zorah?

Aryeh said...

Tzig,
Remember this post.Could get you into heaps of trouble.You are pushing limits

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Aryeh

trouble with whom?

Anonymous said...

Arye
are u working for the Obama regime?

Anonymous said...

Any half serious brisker would shudder at the idea that RS was a talmid of the Brisker Ruv. He created the heter meah to help MK dump his solveitchik wife and move to lakewood to take over BMG. of course this is glossed over by everyone today.

Anon3 said...

Hirshel
See last comment on Matzav about Rav Shach posted by George Orwell.Never knew that George is a Chabadnik.

http://matzav.com/maran-rav-shach-who-are-the-true-baalei-machlokes

YS said...

Tzig
Thank you so much for such an honest and clear post. Finally we get to read the truth - R'Shachs real legacy is just more machlokes. Exactly what klal yisroel needs now. Shame on matzav.
Yerachmiel

Anonymous said...

Did someone listen to the alter's nonsense, Matzav &Co. are embarrassing the memory of a niftar, by putting up that clip. What is he saying, that the concept of Meshichisim and not sleeping in Sukah, the Rebbe picked up in Paris.
was Meshichisim indoctrinated in Sorborne? was that university famous for extreme messianic beliefs?
Was the culture of Paris bohemians, pro eating in Sukah but not sleeping?

Was he sarcastic? then I am not getting it.

Anon3 said...

They pulled George Orwell's comment from Matzav.What a bunch of gutless wonders.

Anonymous said...

What the Brisker Rov said is not a hoax. I've spoken to Yerusholayimer Lubavicher that know of it. There are plenty of brisker talmidim to ask. Ask Rav Heller he probably heard from his BIL. Then you won't bother writing long rants convincing yourself of a "truth" that is more comfortable

Anonymous said...

Well, Rav Shach's son is a dati leumi (and what's "worse", has a PhD), and his grandson a chiloni (and what's "worse", served as a fighter in the tzanachanim = paratroopers), so I guess he educated his kids well (and I mean that seriously). In any event, though I'm neither here nor there, in any "fight" between RS and the LR, I'm squarely with the latter...

Anonymous said...

am not a expert in Litvisher Yiddish, but I have a feeling that the word "tzudreyter" is unterlander shprach"

I'm reminded of the Hungarian brilliant linguist who insisted to me that "chreyn" is a Hungarian word.

Anonymous said...

Any half serious brisker would shudder at the idea that RS was a talmid of the Brisker Ruv. He created the heter meah to help MK dump his solveitchik wife and move to lakewood to take over BMG. of course this is glossed over by everyone today."

This closeness he had with the BR being a ben bayis is pecisely why the BR's children were furious with him. from the "coalitziye parsha" they were no longer on talking terms with him. You people deal in wishful thinking I'm giving you easily verfiable uncomfortable facts.

Anonymous said...

Strawman Alert!

ben bayis != talmid

Anonymous said...

Strawman Alert!
ben bayis != talmid


Kindly aquire "debating for dummies"

Anonymous said...

Anon
"
This closeness he had with the BR being a ben bayis is pecisely why the BR's children were furious with him"
every dick and harry that was in that era in Yerusaliem and Benai Berak claims to have been a ben bayis by the Chazon Ish or by the Brisker Ruv, So I don't believe nobody.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"I've spoken to Yerusholayimer Lubavicher that know of it"
I have heard from Yerushaliemer lubavicher differently, so I still think the story is fabricated.

shepsl said...

Why,nobody is allowed to disagree with the LR? RS disagreed on issues of public policy which includes meshichism.Gedolei Yisroel have been arguing with each other from time immemorial.Everyone has a right to their opinion. History will decide who was right.

Anonymous said...

Strawman Alert II!

Disagreeing with the LR is not even in the same universe as calling him names, implying sexual improprieties and demanding a new Inquisition as happens in the linked video.

Anonymous said...

Shepsl
in my torah their is a issur of Veloi Yiyah Kekorech Veaidosoi,
You are correct,In a democracy you can disagree you can riot, you can instigate, but yidishkiet has its laws

shepsl said...

The whole video is about a minute. Put in writing the words from RS to support your position. Otherwise you're lying. Paris does not equal sexual impropriety.It does equal a western,avant-garde city and the LR did live there. Is that not for public discussion?Inquisition? What are you talking about?Is RS angry? You bet. But that does not give you a right to use loaded words like "Sexual impropriety" and "Inquisition."This is real chutzpah on your part.

Anonymous said...

I have heard from Yerushaliemer lubavicher differently, so I still think the story is fabricated."
If you've "heard differently" why do you only "think"?
You sound childish. if you admit that the BR said this then you'll have to leave the Rebbe?
I can give you a local source. A Vizhnitzer talmid-a Tayerer Yungerman- living in Monsey a Lubavitcher Mekurev who knows of the Rovs statement didn't fold like a cheap camera (Y.R.)

Anonymous said...

Shepsl has the snag talking points down to a science:

"Put in writing the words from RS to support your position. Otherwise you're lying."

Put in writing all the mekoros where RS said any of the "criticisms" that he is alleged to have said. Note; his words of excoriation do not apply here. Otherwise you're lying and so is anyone else who professes RS's "love".

"Paris does not equal sexual impropriety"

No, but in the 1930s Paris had all the reputation in Europe that San Francisco does today in the US. That was the place you went to "let it hang out". Just consult any major European author of the era and you will see this reputation writ large. The implication is there and only the intentionally obtuse will not see it.

"the LR did live there. Is that not for public discussion?"

RS does not engage in discussion but puts forth "Pariz" as prima fascia evidence of a psul. The video editors even repeat it for good measure. If he is not "discussing" the matter than nobody else should.

"This is real chutzpah on your part."

No less so than the leydigeyers on your side of the divide who, like RS, throw out the "kfira", "minus" and "apikorsus" labels with wild abandon.

Anonymous said...

the reason I think is, because if you hear some rumor in 2 opposite directions, you become a skeptic and you start thinking,
Havaintoo????????????????/

Anonymous said...

Shepsl
"What are you talking about?Is RS angry? You bet"
Reb Chaim Oizer lived in Vilna the center of Haskola, Zionism and Socialism in Lita, Was RS angry at him? You Bet

Anonymous said...

Shepsl
". Is that not for public discussion?Inquisition? What are you talking about?Is RS angry? "
Did RS holler in his maniac fashion on Itche Hutner?
Or he held the LBJ theory he is a ... but my ...

Anonymous said...

I have heard from Yerushaliemer lubavicher differently, so I still think the story is fabricated."
If you've "heard differently" why do you only "think"?
You sound childish. if you admit that the BR said this then you'll have to leave the Rebbe?
I can give you a local source. A Vizhnitzer talmid-a Tayerer Yungerman- living in Monsey a Lubavitcher Mekurev who knows of the Rovs statement didn't fold like a cheap camera (Y.R"

the reason I think is, because if you hear some rumor in 2 opposite directions, you become a skeptic and you start thinking,
Havaintoo????????????????/.



Heyvanti.
But in your case you've heard just one.
Now about the childish issue...

Anonymous said...

I won't be explicit. R Rephoel Soloveitchik ZL after chastising me for speaking what he felt was loshon hora about the "Eda" then said a shocking thing to me regarding the Parisian Years. But then again my little friend my have "heard differently from Yerusholayimer Lubavitcher"...

Anonymous said...

I just want to add although I know the BR 's comment to be true and do sympathize - I reject completely what R Rephoel told me. Even today it pains me that he said it and I don't want to burn in Gehenem for being Motzi Laaz.

Anonymous said...

I also feel having spent time with both men that R Leyzer (as he was known in the intimate Brisker circle of mishpocho/talmidim) volt R Rephoeln ZL arogelozt a frask farn lozn falln fun moil azelche diburim.

shepsl said...

Let's stop playing games. Is the Rebbe moshiach? If he is how is life under "moshiach" different than before "moshiach?" Last I knew,there were still two mosques on the Har Habayis and two big kleisters on Har Tzion and Har Hazeisim and the blood of the kedoshim in Mumbai and Itamar is still warm.How can Moshiach be here and the world be full of pain?Where is the nekomoh for all of our kedoshim?These are the real questions. Please answer me.This is what we've waited for over the last 2000 years?I heard the Rebbe talk about Moshiach countless times. I'm sorry but the world as we know it is not what he meant.Why don't you quote what RS really said? He said that there was"eizeh shigaon shel meshihut."You can hear it on the video. Messianism was the real issue that RS was fighting. So aderabeh,show me how this is the messianic age.Are the funeral chapels in BP out of business?Are the oncology wards closing down? An answer,please.The arrival of Moshiach is not the grocery man delivering an order. There have to be facts on the ground to show that this is the tikun for the whole universe that we have been waiting for.You show me evidence and I will concede that RS was wrong.

Anonymous said...

Why do you guys and the Stoliner's say "zug" a niggun? What's pshat in that?"

All Litvishe did. Non Chasidic as well. If you hear the non Chasidic Litvakes zogn a nigun vedste sheyn aleyn farshteyn... The Lubavitcher have the same curious hunched shoulders barn zogn a nigun just like their Misnagdic cultural brethren

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"This closeness he had with the BR being a ben bayis is pecisely why the BR's children were furious with him"
every dick and harry that was in that era in Yerusaliem and Benai Berak claims to have been a ben bayis by the Chazon Ish or by the Brisker Ruv, So I don't believe nobody."

He wasnt close to the BR!!! Just who did the family choose to be Mesader Kiddushin at the youngest son's wedding (after death of Rav Berel) in 1981!! Why Rav Shach. Rav Berel traveled to Beni Brak

Anonymous said...

what do I care what every brisker Rebisher Einikel had to say,
U think Me or my Family are following every burp that the Brisker mishpucha has to say, it was a family like other Jewish families, a eccentric retard, a few am haratzim a few talmidie chachomim, So please don't scare me with Reb Refoel statement, Hot er Gezogt..

Anonymous said...

rom this whole list you only know for sure 2 people
Munkacher Ruv, who cursed left and right, I guess he had a rebishe inya, otherwise he made no sense.
Belzer Ruv RYD, was aggressive in his anti Zionist/modernity, but was not in the cursing business, the 2 others I don't know and you don't know."


You'd best devote some summer reading time to read the myriad of Pshevorker publications. Although not having the veracity and authority of say an Izvetzia piece or Pravda material or Khos for that matter, it still makes for some quite compelling reading.

Anonymous said...

Rav Shach was one of the very few ,maybe 5, who got a haskomo on a sefer from the BR

Sad Story Shach said...

If not for this matzav article I would not have believed that any rav could be so crazy. Watching the rest of this video and the other one from the degel convention, you can actually see the other rabbonim cringe in embarrassment. I guess now we know wht Shach was only allowed out of his cage a few times...
"LaIsha" magazine!!! "Very few shomrei shabbos in Bnei-Braq... moshiach is sheker..." interspersed with more incoherent rants about "only teyreh exists" and those who "only think about their girls and Tel Aviv!!!" Its all there, rabbosai, as a tragic example of what happens when Torah is overwhelmed by hate and jealousy. What rav ever dared speak like this - no wonder till now Shach was kept on the down low;;;hes too much of an embarrassment.

Anonymous said...

I heard alot of the Peshvorsker stuff, and I never heard a quote of a curse in the name of the Koloshitzer Ruv. He comes across very extreme against all the Isms that were flourishing then but I did not detect the wild curses of the holy Munkacher that didn't mean much, since he used the same curses on Gedolim Vetoivim, Veda"l
Since you talk Koloshitz, I saw that Reb Yankele said, that after being in Siberia with all stripes of Jews, I am taking a different approach then my Rebbe the Koloshitzer,I know that u don't like that statement since in our ongefresene velt Ahavas Yisroel for every Jew is a taboo subject, but this is what he said.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Although not having the veracity and authority of say an Izvetzia piece or Pravda material or Khos for that matter, it still makes for some quite compelling reading."
After reading all their beliefs on Sanz and Shinev, I realized the opposite, that Kehos still has along way to go..to compete with their legends.. eventough they heard it all from some dayan in Galicia that heard it from the Bube Mirel...

yoni said...

"Rav Shach was one of the very few ,maybe 5, who got a haskomo on a sefer from the BR" - Check out "Igros Maran HaGriz Halevi, the Brisker Rav by Rabbi Shimon Yosef Meller (http://www.michtavim.com/Griz.pdf),looks like a lot more than 5....

Anonymous said...

Yoni
If I recall correct,
there is a pre war Haskoma from Brisker Ruv (the LR father also gives a haskoma on that sefer)on a hagada shel pesach with only chasidishe torah.

Anonymous said...

Hirshl please post the Brisker Rov haskomo to Avi Ezri
Shkoyach

Anonymous said...

Disagreeing with the LR is not even in the same universe as calling him names, implying sexual improprieties and demanding a new Inquisition as happens in the linked video."

RS demanded an inquisition? If you'd like send translated text of his speech in your own native tongue - Polish

Anonymous said...

Don't understand this Paris slander at all. My understanding is he was there with is wife. Even if he'd want to (he didn't)he couldn't. (I'm the guy that posted the BR comment so I have no negyos in this). Mamesh Motzi Shem ra. As I advised so to be mfayes SR at the tziyun anyone engaged in such Dilturyo should run to his Ohel plead for forgiveness. Be mkabl something liluy nishmosoy.

duvid said...

Interesting how the "anonymous" from Williamsburg, poo-poos curses by a well known rebbe as a "rebbishe zach".
Rav Shach did not "curse".He voiced very strident opinions against some people and their shittos.He did not curse them.A very telling example of how out of touch with mainstream Ultra-Orthodoxy some of the posters here are is using the example of Rav Shachs strident opinion against Rabbi Goren.After Rabbi Gorens psak with the famous mamzeirim case, he was universally opposed by all the Chareidi rabbis.This was a total blanket issue.

Anonymous said...

Duvid
"He voiced very strident opinions against some people and their shittos."
to label Menaschie Yayin is considered by you a idle discussion on NPR

Anonymous said...

Duvid
Ok,
Rav Shach's hatemongering was a rebbishe thing too

duvid said...

Lubavitchers just like other Jews come in all shapes and personalities.Some are genuinely wondeful people, some are not.
There are two one thing that all Lubavitchers that I know seem to share:An inability to be objective when it comes to Chabad (i.e Lubavitch is a-l-w-a-y-s right or anyone involved or like by Chabad is right) and an elephants memory of ancient history and fights.A bit like a wife who will always bring up ancient fights and slights.
It's very difficult to build a relationship with people who suffer these faults.

FOR EXAMPLE:
An anonymous poster had previously "glossed" over a rebbe who was known to curse, by calling it a "rebbishe mayseh".This rebbe was on the Chabads friends list, therefore this is no "biggee".(I"m not taking stand, I don't know why he did it)
The fact of the matter is that Rav Shachs strident talk was quite a common practice before political correctness became so popular.There is no "cursing" in those views, just very strident opinions said in public for extra emphasis.The Satmar Rebbe was known to be extremely striedent in his views, but soft and generous with private individuals, even thoses hated "tziyoinim".
If anyone ever saw the Rashabs letters (which have been "hidden" in todays Lubavitch for very pc reasons)against Zionists they will understand my point.
Are Rav Shachs letters andstrident views apropo for todays generation, especially outside of Eretz Yisroel?Maybe not.Would he have written differently today?Maybe.

From The Arcives said...

Reading through some of these comments, I was amazed by the fantasy that seems to substitite for reality in certain peoples minds. So a few points are in order:
Yes, it's true that Rav Shach had lots of nasty things to say about lots of yidden, including rabbonim, rebbes, and drochim. Since he's been dead a few years already, and whatever influence his hate may have had is fading, why don't we leave him alone in the 'olam hoemes' to deal with these issues quietly. He may have had good intentions in attacking everybody, but it's clear that this was and is NOT the derech hatorah as taught by our gedolim. Was the Chofetz Chaim any less of a kanoie for torah than R' Shach ?! Of course not. Could anybody even imagine the CC attacking other jews like RS ? The same goes for the Chazon Ish. He was famous for his kanous in his derech and shittos. Did he go around screaming that those who printed a sefer he didn't hold of could never do teshuvah ?! The same goes for R' Chaim Oizer, R' Chaim Brisker, R' Chaim Volozhiner, and the many true gedolim of the last generations. When we try to defend behaviour that so clearly violates Torah, we only cheapen ourselves to look like fools. Many gedolim didn't hold of R'YB Soloveichik's derech either. Did they call him a kofer and continue to fight him after his passing ?!! THIS is torah ?!
R' Shach was elevated to 'godol' status by a political apparatus terrorizing the yeshivish-velt who used him for their narrow political agendas. Do you really think that our bochurim shteighing in learning today- our future gedolim- do you really think they won't realize that the Avi Ezri is really just a mediocre collection of biurim that never was and never will be a real classic ? How stupid do you think our children are ? The haskama from the Brisker Rov proves nothing at all. For starters, the Griz gave the haskama ONLY on condition that it be printed in the sefer, so why isn't it printed in any Avi Ezri in my yeshiva's library ? Then, for anyone bothering to read through the various hakdamas to the Avi Ezri's different editions, it becomes clear that either 1)much of it was written by different people, or 2) R' Shach was a severe schizophrenic. Go into Chevron today, into R'Dovids, into the Mir, into Merkaz Harav, into any major yeshiva, and find me even one where the Avi Ezri is a major focus. The sefer is a non-event, period. And for those fools who STILL claim the Brisker Rov supported R'Shach, learn some history. R' Velvil held that it's forbidden to take any money from the medina to support the yeshivos, and that a frumer yid should not be involved with them in any way. He was furious at R' Shach for going against the derech hatorah on this, and called any money that came to the yeshivos through this as a mitzva-habo-be'avera. My own uncle was in R' Velvil zlt's yeshiva at the time, and heard from R'Velvils OWN MOUTH- "er vill mishen tumos mit taharos, vos hot er, a nayer toireh". It's well known that for this reason, even though the Griz had held of R' Shach earlier on, he later distanced him and in his last few years was quite cold to him.
Our gedolim wre not baalei-loshon hora, they were not mechrchei riv, they did NOT wage war against other derochim, they merely focused on their own. In fact, they had derech-eretz for other geonim, and didn't make sinas chinam a new 'derech'.

Anonymous said...

Unlike Rabbi Rokeach (always wondered any relation to the canned soups) that said er sheymtzach mit zahn bar pligte the BRMSH a"h (one might make a similar statement on behalf of his Bar Plugta..). The Lubavich Chasidim that are fair can admit that in the Rebbes case this wasn't so

Duvid di fantasyuhr said...

Duvid, please stop lying and misquoting the heiliger Rashab. Yes he was one of, or maybe THE fiercest lochem against tziyonus, but not tziyonisten. His writings (including his transcripts of meetings) on this subject have been printed by Kehos (and others). There is not one word of personal attacks a la Shachs hatefest - not one word. He writes how he disproved and warned the rabbis that came to convince him, but never calls them any of the filthy names Shach threw at anybody he didnt like. Stop lying.

Anonymous said...

I attempted posting this and hope this time Hirshl won't suppress free speech. R Yeruchom Gorelick ZL was won't to tell in his speeches in South Fallsburg being a talmid mkurev of the Chofetz Chaim. He witnessed when a letter came from R Kook he tookl his sleeve nisht veln onrirn mit di hent un ogishart fun tish zogndik Kook Pook Shmook. R Abba ZL also told this over many times.

gershon said...

From the archives,
You attack against sefer Aviezri is immature and silly.The sefer is very well accepted in Olom Hayeshivas and Rav Shach had thousands of the brightest talmidim going through his shiur in Ponovizh, where some of the best minds studied.
If, however you choose to use popularity of a sefer as a measuring yard, you are invited to come around with yours truly to CHASIDIC shuls and yeshivas and see how popular and widespread Likutei Sichos is.You will have a hard time finding any.Despite a massive worldwide drive of handing out weekly Likutei Sichos in as many shuls as possible.
Sure you want to use that measuring rod?.
Btw, you appear to be totally clueless about Brisk.Your uncle probably learned in Brisk Chicago, and like your average Lubavitcher you have no idea about anything in Brisk or who yeshivaleit mean, when they talk about Brisk.

Anonymous said...

When the Brisker Rov was Boidik a Mikve before filling it he discovered a crack (or that it still had some water) and fainted. The Beys Avrom (R Boruch Ber once kissed him on his forhead barn reydn in lernen)told his Chsidim. Vos meynt ir eyder Der Balsh"t iz gikumen af der velt hot der Ganeydn gipustivet?

Anonymous said...

To the Shoyel re Zogn a Nign. The Breslover UvYoim hashabbos and the Lubavicher (baal hatanyes) bney heycholo are classic examples of Litvishe negino. I'd like to know from di giborine chabadsker if they are familiar with the following Litvishe "nigun". Lchayim far _'s vegn all respond Lchayim teyvim UlSholeym. I'd also like to know from di giborner if they know Katarina Moladitza that the Chabadsker were mayle from di tumme.

Anonymous said...

Hirshl - the Haskomo from BR on Avi Ezri please. If you haven't seen it check it out.

Anonymous said...

I'd also like to know from di giborner if they know Katarina Moladitza that the Chabadsker were mayle from di tumme."

The lack of a response indicates the Chabadsker engaged here are all givorinne.. Were's the fun in that?

From the Archives said...

Gershon,
Too bad you still only come up with false blather. My uncle (zol zein gezunt) was a talmid muvhok of the Gryz for almost 6 years in Yerusholayim, and heard from him many times in his last years how furious he was with RµShach. They may have been very close earlier, but its well known that RS and the GRYZ fell out very hard later. The Avi Ezri is a mediocre sefer of little practical use, probably because the author was clueless in halocho and psak. Theres a good reason that all the stupid and wicked name-calling came from one who never sat on a beisdin and didnt know much Shulchon Oruch...

Anonymous said...

I have heard from Yerushaliemer lubavicher differently, so I still think the story is fabricated."

Just to be clear. You claim you heard from Yerushaliemer lubavicher about a comment the Briker Rov " never made" that he never made it ? Riiiiiight. Are you in life insurance or used cars ?

gershon said...

Fromthearchives,
Spare the details of your imaginary uncle.
You are parroting the average Lubavitch line that I"ve heard over and over again.I don't come to this blog for that.

yoni said...

"and didnt know much Shulchon Oruch"

Check this out:

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=47171&st=&pgnum=1

Anonymous said...

It is pretty clear from the actions of todays Yeshivishe Gedolim that the words of REMMS are no longer in effect.

R. Elyashiv and R. Kanievski meet with Lubavitcher bochurim in their homes and the photos are all over bhol and other forums

R. Shteinmann invites R. Yoel Kahn into his home amongst a huge entourage of askonim from both sides.

R Michel Lefkowitz and R. Shmuel Wosner hold meetings with R. YL Landau concerning goings-on in BB.

Clearly, none of these people hold from REMMS's "strident" words of giduf anymore. They have been quietly consigned to the ash heap of forgotten ideology.

Give it up, kanoyim; the REMMS era is done like a shabbos cholent!

chaim said...

Anonymous 1:07.
Sorry,I beg to differ.
REMMS worry was that the disguised Meshichist tendencies of Chabad be recognized.Remember this was before Chabad started to campaign that the Rebbe is moshiach.
Nowadays, everyone knows where Chabad stands, and they are not as dangerous.
Rav Shteinman, did not "invite" R'Yoel Kahn to come in.It was the other way around, actually.Chabad wanted a photo op with The Litvishe rabbonim, so they were the ones that invited themselves over.
R'Elyoshiv and R'Kanievsky are meeting with a great-nephew, grandson of R'Elashivs brother-in-law R'Yakobovitch, who is Lubavitch.Nothing to do with any politics.
Bottom line is that the discomfort Rav Shach had with Chabad is shared basically by all walks of life of the Heimishe oylem, and indeed Chabad themselves, the anti meshichist factions,agrees with the sentiment regarding Meshichists

chaimshmeel said...

What is absolutely amazing, and very telling, is that in over 140 comments on this article, NOT ONE has addressed the biggest issue it raises:
How could R' Shach have attacked so many different groups and rabbis, without providing ANY halachic justification for his position?!
Does this mean that he had none, and just hoped people would believe him blindly?!
This article makes what R' Shach's legacy clear; More blind hate, more sinas chinam, more machlokes. Call a spade a spade.

Anonymous said...

Chaim's arguments above are not persusaive.

"Rav Shteinman, did not "invite" R'Yoel Kahn to come in.It was the other way around..."

No matter. One of the top figures in the Yeshivish world meets with one of the top figures in Chabad and about 100 people witness it first hand. If REMMS's "psak" was valid you can be sure that any request for such a meeting would be rejected with all smiles; "It is not possible to fulfill this request at this time...".

"R'Elyoshiv and R'Kanievsky are meeting with a great-nephew, grandson of R'Elashivs brother-in-law R'Yakobovitch, who is Lubavitch.Nothing to do with any politics."

Rs Elyashiv and Kanievsky would never let mechallalei shabbos or ovdei gillulim into their homes, no matter who they are. I know a personal story with a student whose entire shiur went for a group Yechidus at the home of the Steipler Gaon, RK's father. The Steipler stopped one bachur at the door and, in front of all the assembled, yelled "I do not allow violators of shabbos into my home!" The bachur later related that he had, in fact, smoked a cigarette over shabbos! For sure, if these two rabbonim held that Ls are ... then the meetings with those bachurim would never have taken place. Nuff said.

"Bottom line is that the discomfort Rav Shach had with Chabad is shared basically by all walks of life of the Heimishe oylem"

Again, the mentioned Gedolim do not share this view and their actions speak pretty loudly on the matter.

Anonymous said...

Chaim
"Rav Shteinman, did not "invite" R'Yoel Kahn to come in.It was the other way around, actually.Chabad wanted a photo op with The Litvishe rabbonim, "
why should I believe you? because you hate chabad?

yoni said...

"How could R' Shach have attacked so many different groups and rabbis, without providing ANY halachic justification for his position?!
Does this mean that he had none, and just hoped people would believe him blindly?!"

Please take the time to do some research:

Lubavitch:

1)על התורה ועל התמורה - Al HaTorah V'al Ha'Temurah by A. Neuman (Chippenham, England: Anthony Rowe, 1991)

2)Kuntres Ha'emes al Tnuas Chabad B'shnos ha'80's -by Mordechai Moskowitz (Available here - http://www.identifyingchabad.org/kuntress_haemes.pdf)

3)Identifying Chabad - http://www.identifyingchabad.org/

4)Frumteens - http://www.frumteens.com/topic.php?topic_id=171&forum_id=21&topic_title=Lubavitch&forum_title=Other&M=0&S=1 (43 pages)

Steinsaltz:

http://www.yoel-ab.com/katava.asp?id=115

Goren:

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/beshalach/BSH63features2.htm

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/TZV63features2.ht

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/mishpotim/MSH63features.htm

Soloveitchik:

Read the entire letter in Michtavim U'maamarim...

Levi:

Again, read the entire letter in Michtavim U'maamarim...

yoni said...

Correction for second link regarding Goren:

http://chareidi.org/archives5763/TZV63features2.htm

Anonymous said...

So you brought a whole list of Pashkevilen?
is that the way the hate machine in Benai Berak decided Halacha?(truth is yes)
You are such a ignorant ferd to quote these Kuntriesim, it is all items that a normal guy is embarrassed with, and tries to wash his hands clean from Pashkevilin.
Only a idiot like you would bring this nonsense as evidence for the hatemongers of BB.

Anonymous said...

From the archives-

Its very telling that you had to resort to immature fabrication. I posted awhile back that the Rovs children were "furious" with R Leyzer 18 yrs after the Rov was niftar re Koalitziye. You took my statement and altered it to read the Rov himself.
Now re your imaginary friend- I mean uncle ( if he exists zol er takke zayn gizunt un shtark). If the man learned 6 yrs by Rov he must be a major marbitz Tora a Shem Dovor. Please provide a name. Btw anyone within 6 degrees of separation to the BR never would call him the Gryz. But a former high school talmid in a us litvishe mesivta most definitely would

Anonymous said...

BTW, the sefer "Al HaTorah V'al Ha'Temurah" is very hard to find.

They have 1 copy at the YU library:

http://yufind.library.yale.edu/yufind/Record/1030923

as well as the Chabad library:

http://www.chabadlibrary.org/catalog/index1.php?frame=main&catalog=hcatalog&mode=details&volno=85704&limit=0&field=TITLE&oys=%F2&oys2=%F2%EC&search_mode=alefbet

Anonymous said...

In an attempt to clarify some aspects of Ahavas Yisrol. If a Dayan makes a mistake there are instances when he's liable and when he's not. Masechte Sanhedin deals with this. If I think for example that Hirshl Tzig kidnapped LK A"H and ran over to HT in public screaming "murderer!" Then we find that it was LA. My screaming does not reflect Sinaas Yisol. I was toye. If R Leyzer said Menaschey Yayin etc its not hatred its simply how he perceives the matter at worst he's a Toye(provided he's wrong). This "Eda Shleyma being slandered" is bunk. Yerovom ben Nevot corrupted a bigger Eda. R Chaim Brisker used to say Der Gehenem iz ginug greys far gantz Varshe. I'm not subscribing necessarily to RS opinion. I just feel this to b a teachable moment

Anonymous said...

Excerpt of Mekor Rishon interview with Benny Brown author of new released Chazon Ish Biography, himself a Benai Berak Resident
למדתי 'חברותות' עם כמה וכמה שכנים שהיו טיפוסים שונים מאוד מאיתנו.

"תקופת הרב שך הייתה אכן סוערת. הרב שך נלחם עם פלוני, וערף את ראשו של אלמוני, וזה – אין להכחיש – היה מעניין מאוד אפילו למסתכל מן הצד כמוני, שלא היה חלק טבעי מן המחנות. באותה תקופה קמת כל בוקר עם אירוע חדש. היה קשה מאוד לעמוד מהצד ולהישאר אדיש. התעוררו אצלי הסקרנות והחשק לנסות להבין את מה שקורה פה, גם ברמת המידע, פשוט 'להיות בעניינים', אבל בעיקר: לנסות להבין את ההיגיון הפנימי שמסתתר מאחורי החיים החרדיים. נוצרו לי קשרים עם אישים שונים, התחלתי לקרוא 'יתד נאמן', בקיצור: העמקתי יותר ויותר בעניין".

אתה מזכיר לי קטע מוצלח שקראתי בחוברת שלך 'דוקטורינת דעת תורה'. ממש התגלגלתי מצחוק כשקראתי את זה. אצטט: "הרב שך נגד פא"י; הרב שך נגד גור; הרב שך נגד חב"ד; הרב שך נגד אגודת ישראל; הרב שך נגד כל החסידויות (חוץ מבעלז); הרב שך נגד הרב בנימין זילבר; הרב שך נגד המודיע; הרב שך נגד הרב לנדא; הרב שך נגד הרב ואזנר; הרב שך נגד הרב שטיינזלץ; הרב שך נגד הרב עובדיה ותנועת ש"ס; הרב שך נגד ר' מיכל פיינשטיין ובית בריסק; הרב שך נגד הרב גריינימן; הרב שך נגד הרב וולבה; הרב שך נגד הרב פינקוס. ולא נשכח להוסיף גם את המאבקים בישיבתו שלו, ישיבת פוניבז', שבימיו רק החלו לתסוס".

"אכן, ממש 'עשרת בני המן'… ועדיין לא חלמתי אז שזה יהיה תחום עיסוק מרכזי
Obviously it is all deeper then deep Ahavas Yisroel according to the great Jew Lover Shubert, with this brand of Ahavas Yiroel, Shubert should move to Jewland (New Square)

Anonymous said...

Lekoved shivo osor btamuz

The nigun katarina vintage Chabad. Chizuk in tzipiye liyshu'o. Mhotos mayle givezn fun di tume

Katarina moladitza podye soday ( not sure of exact translation or if I want to)

Kata idoch kittes un rinne meyntdoch gizayng un az moshiach vet kummen veln zayn kittes fun gizayng un mir veln zingen alle in eynem mit greys kavonne unmit greys Hislayves: katarina moladitza etc

Mole meyntdoch ful un ditze meyntdoch freyd un az moshiach vet kummen veln alle Idn zayn ful mit freyd un az moshiach kummen veln zayn kittes etc

Podye menyntoch oysleyzun un Soday idoch Kavyochl Aleyn un aMoshiach vet kummen vet unz oyslazun Kavyochl aleyn un az etc

A shame I can't share the tune. Btw this niggun zingtzach gornit obber oy zogt er zach!