Sunday, July 24, 2011

.....כל זמן דער ליכטעלע ברענט



דער הייליגער בעש"ט נ"ע האט אונז געלערנט אז פון יעדען זאך קאן מען זיך עטוואס אפלערנען א דרך אין עבודת השי"ת. פונקט נעכטן נאכט, מוצש"ק, האט איך געהערט ווי דער ליובאוויטשער רבי, זצוקללה"ה נבג"מ זי"ע האט אמאל דערציילט וויזוי דער בעש"ט האט דאס אויסגעלערנט פאר די תלמידים, נאכדעם ווי אן אוקריינישער ערל האט געבעטן אז מ'זאל אים העלפן ארויסשלעפן די וואגן זיינער פון א טיפער בלאטע. די תלמידים האבען געענטפערט אז זיי קענען אים העלפן, ווייל די בלאטע איז צו טיף און די פערדן צו שווער. דער גוי האט דאס אבער נישט אנגענומען, ער האט זיי געענטפערט אויף זיין שפראך: "מאזשעזש, דא ניע כאטשעטש," איר קענט, איר ווילט נאר נישט. און פון דעם האט דער הייליגער בעש"ט זיי געלערנט אז מ'דארף נאר וועלן, ווייל קענען קען מען יא, אפילו אז מ'מיינט אז מ'קען נישט, ווייל עס קומט נישט אהן גרינג. כאטש די דאזיגע פרשה וואס מען "פייערט" היינט אין מדינת ניו יארק האט נישט מיט פרומע אידן צו טוהן, ווייל ע"פ תורתנו הק' איז עס פארבאטען, קאן מען זיך אבער יא עפעס אפלערנען דערפון, גוטע זאכען דוקא, טיפע אפלערנונגען, עכ"פ לדעתי

גיט א קוק אויף די 2 פארשוינען אין דעם בילד. זיי האבען היינט, אין א מזל'דיגער שעה, "חתונה געהאט." דאס אז 2 מענטשן אין זייערע יארען האבן בכלל חתונה געשעהנט נישט יעדן טאג, און טאמער יא איז די שמחה א שטילער, בדרך כלל. א פארפאלק אין די יארען האט שוין בד"כ חתונה געהאט און געהאדעוועט א משפחה, חתונה געמאכט די קינדער, און ביידע האבען שוין - נישט ביי קיין שום איד געדאכט - פארלוירן א מאן אדער פרוי. בד"ג גט מען זיך נישט אין די יארען. זייער זעלטן אז 2 מענטשן אין די גאלדענע יארען זאלען חתונה האבן דאס ערשטע מאל. אין אונזער פאל איז אבער דער וועלט נאך נישט געווען גענוג "פארגעשריטן" ביז היינט, און די 2 פרויען האבן נעבאך נישט געקענט ביז היינט "זיגלען זייער ליבע" ביז היינט אינדערפרי. דאס אז די אלטיטשקע איז שוין היינט אין א וויעלטשער, די העלזל אירער איז איינגעוויקלט אין א גיפס, און קוים וואס זי גייט, נעבאך, דאס האט נישט אפגעשוואכט זייער שמחה, זי ווייזט פאר די וועלט אז זי האט געווינען דעם פארמעסט! זי קען יעצט אויסלעבן אירע יארן מיט גרויס פרייד, און ווען איינעק שטארבט וועט דאס אנדערע ירשנ'ען אלץ וואס זי פארמאגט, ווייל זי איז ארויס מיט דער גרעסטע נצחון מעגליך, און קיינער וועט ביי זיי דאס נישט צונעמען, אפילו אויב די וועלער וועלן דאס צוריקצוהען. ווייל זי האט שוין אויפגעטוהן וואזס זי האט געוואלט.


AP/AFP/Getty

פארוואס האב איך געברענגט דעם אלעמען באקאנטער ווארט פון ר' ישראל סאלאנטער, פרעגט איר? וויל איך טשעפן ר' ישראל, ח"ו? אינגאנצן נישט. דאס ווארט איז מיר פשוט געלעגן אויף די צונג לעצטנס, ווייל איך האב עס עטליכע מאל געהערט. אפשר איז דאס די "הוראה" וואס מ'קען לערנען פון די צוויי פרויען: אז כאטש זיי האבען אזוי לאנג געווארט אויף צו טוהן נישט קיין גוטע זאך, קען מען זיך לערנען אז מ'דארף האבען געדולד, מ'טאר זיך נישט מייאש זיין, ח"ו. ס'הייסט אז זיי האבען שוין צענדליגע יארען געווארט אויף "חתונה" צו האבען. ווען זיי האבען זיך באקענט מיט צענדליגע יארען צוריק איז דאס געווען גאר ווייט פון געשעהן, א וויסטער חלום, און דאך האבען זיי נישט אויפגעגעבן האפענונג. כאטש ס'איז נישט געווען איינגענעם, מ'האט פון זיי געלאכט און געשפעט, און אפשר נאך ערגער. מ'האט אויף זיי אראפ געקוקט און אפשר נאך אויסגעשאלטן. אבער זיי - די 2 ווארשיינליכע אידענעס - האבען זיך געהאלטן פעסט ביי די גלויבונג אז וואס זיי טובען און וויזוי זיי לעבן איז רעכט און נאבל. ר' ישראל'ס ווארט רעדט זיך טאקע וועגן תשובה, אז כל זמן ס'ברענט קען מען נאך פארריכטן, אבער אוודאי קען מען דאס בארגן אויף דער ענין התקוה ושלא להתייאש.

און איצט צום עצם הענין: מיר פארגעשריטענע מענטשן ווילן אז מ'זאל לאזן יענעם לעבן און זיך נישט מישן אין זיינע געשעפטן. פארוואס וויל מען דאס? פשוט. כדי יענער זאל זיך נישט מישן אין אונזערע געשעפטן... נאר וואס דען? די הייליגע תורה הקדושה לאזט דאך אבער נישט, און רופט עס אהן בשם תועבה, און ג-ט ברוך הוא האט פיינט תועבה, און זאגט אז ער שטראפט דערפאר, שפירן מיר זיך פאראנטווארטליך אז מ'דארף טוהן אלץ וואס מ'קען אויף אפצושטעלן אזעלכע זאכען ביי אונז אין לאנד. אזוי וואלט געדארפט זיין, עכ"פ, אבער למעשה איז עס נישט אזוי. פרומע אידן שפירן זיך גאנץ אומבאקוועם ווען עס קומט צו דער נושא, בכלל, און קענען זיך נישט אויסדרוקן דערוועגן, ספעציעל נישט ווען עס האנדלט זיך מיט די פרייע און גוי'אישע פרעסע. ער ווייסט אז מ'קוקט אים אהן ווי א מאדנער בריא אהן דעם וואס ער עפנט דאס מויל, נאר ווי ער שטייט און גייט, ער דארף נישט אז מ'זאל אים נאך צו דערצו פיינט האבן ווייל ער לאזט נישט 2 מענער וועלכע האבן זיך גאר שטארק ליב, און וועלן בלייבן לעבן צוזאמען לעולם ועד - נישט ווי א מאן און פרוי וועלכע שיידן זיך נאך א פאר יאר - חתונה האבען. פרומע אידן זענען בכלל ממעט אין פראטעסטן, א חוץ די אנשי סאטמאר ונטו"ק. און אז מ'גייט נישט פראטעסטירן קעגן שניידן וואוטשערס און לאו אינקאם האוזינג, וועט מען אוודאי נישט גיין אויף אזעלכע ענינים.

ס'נאך פאראן אסאך צו זאגן אויף דעם ענין

.....דאכט זיך מיר אז אין דעם פאל איז נישט קיין שייך קיין חשש הרהור

In a similar vein...

73 comments:

Anonymous said...

The torah says 'v'eloh zuki escham'.. the land of 'eretz yisruel' shouldn't spit us out when we desecrate the land with impurities'

let us worry about our jewish breathen how they desecrate 'our' land before we demostrate against the goyims impurities.. TIL KORA NIBEIN ENICHEM!

yehupitz said...

anon,
Vi es kristels zich, azoy yiddles zich.

Sadly, This already has and will have serious reprecussions on Jews, from Jews, in the US and in Eretz Yisroel.

Notice the tragedy that has already occured under YU auspices (gatherings of several hundreds moderated by their molestation-warrior mashgiach, the "Statement of Principles", the "It gets better" (It should never get better) video and campaign.

And we wonder why the tznius mores on the right are getting more and more insane and machmir. There is a simple explanation: It's a tug-of-war. And when the team on the other end pulls hard, the other side wants to pull back, even more. Not that it's a good strategy, but it's understandable.

Anonymous said...

Am I drowsey or something else? Why is it called a marriage when two old or young woman or men decided to live togheter for what any reason financially or otherwise?

And since when is a ‘civil marriage’ called a marriage? And if so why do we need a religious marriage? Now rashi in chilun page 92: writes that gays who proabably are having a conjugal relationship atleast they do it without a ‘ketubia’ so it’s a merit to them that they don’t have the cutzpah to write a ketubia manifesting them selfs to each other, but a ‘civil marriage’ whats that?

The definition of a ‘marriage’ is “Cross-Pollination the process by which pollen is transferred in plants (or humans), thereby enabling fertilization and sexual reproduction” how will that happen when two homo sapiens of the same species living togheter - in sin or otherwise - and now the ‘state’ will accept it as a so called ‘marriage’ change anything, why will it be called a ‘marriage’ why not just another t’eavoh which became accepted by the state like many other numurious t’eavohs accepted by goyim??

Anonymous said...

As i understand marriage you cant have a marriage according the 'halacha' if you know in advance the you will not be able to have children so how is this new law any problem from an a halacha standpoint when its nul
'0' to begin with?

Savage said...

last line is the BEST in the whole world.

Anonymous said...

(It should never get better)
ummm... am I missing something? these videos didn't advocate being gay in any way, they're videos encouraging frumme bochurim who happen to be gay to stay on the frumme veg, and not to despair, although they have these feelings.
sis you even see the interviews? or would you like them to continue to commit suicide, r"l?

Schneur said...

Tzig.
Thanks for raising the issue, but why in Yiddish. Write it in English.
Next Chabad and the rebbe raised the Mivza Sheva Mitzvoth Bnai Noach and since we live in a free country , he was correct in raising it.
So why are the Anshe Chabad in their multiple organizations in the state of vayidom completely silent. A state(NY) wide protest led by Chabad rabbis together with heimishe Yidden and other could be effective.
Could it just be that Chabad also wants to be pC for fund raising purposes and that this very "liberal and accepting movement as described by "Rabbi " Steve Greenber on page 3 of this week's Jewish Week wants to ingratiate iteself with the Jewish liberal comunity who basically fund a good aprt of the budget.
By being silent the Chabd people have quiclky forgot about the mIvzoim
the kshe is also o otehr Orthodox groups but alas they never were makpid on our role to spread the 7 Mitzvoth bnai Noach.

yehupitz said...

re: 10:33's comment, I think the main long-term effect might be "What happens when for a noticeable segment of the population, commitment & marriage are rendered entirely separate from procreation?" The effect is certain to be negative. How long will it be before we see that effect?

J said...

Ein darkeinu behafganos Or in mixing directly in the gezetzen fun land through lobbying etc. A simple public statement that it is unfortunate, at best. This is a one on one issue, and a very difficult and delicate one at that. We haven’t even figured out how to counsel unzere who are born with this netia. Lomo osoh havaya kocho is their question, and it is stronger than all our answers, as the Rebbe once said about the taane of the oni to the eibershter.

Anonymous said...

J said...
'Lomo osoh havaya kocho'

you may ask yourself the same question on all laven of the torah! like stealing or murdering etc etc now the torah gave a heter on 'ashes yefas toar' so he want do it 'beusur' or for someone who is born in mazel 'madem' he likes to see blood to become a 'shochet' but in mishkav zucher! their is no heter and the isur is very specific, so get over it take a cold bath! or learn torah! 'moshchai l'bais hamadresh' now I'm not preaching c"v just stating the facts like on any yetzer the answer is deal with it!

Anonymous said...

"Ein darkeinu behafganos Or in mixing directly in the gezetzen fun land through lobbying etc"

does that policy include trying to change local zoning in various communities to build chabad houses, no lobbying ? or when it comes to self interest 'darkeinu' is different

Anonymous said...

J street
I heard a sicha of the Rebbe calling gay life a disease

Anonymous said...

J street
their is a famous halacha in sefer hayad, if someone(even a doctor will say his claim is legit) claims he will die if he will not see a certain woman nude, the Rambam paskens let him die let die.
This is torah that will not change on a individuals animal instincts.

Anonymous said...

anon:"This is torah that will not change on a individuals animal instincts"

Halacha is what's written in shulchen uruch for everyone equal! t'shvous are written for specific shalous asked! and only a rav/lmaden can compare the current shaloh to the written response times and circustances are or maybe different

The Bray of Fundie said...

Schneur for English look here:

I've been all over this for weeks.

http://innate-differences.blogspot.com/2011/07/legislative-assault-on-havdala-part-iii_11.html

http://innate-differences.blogspot.com/2011/06/havdala-al-naqba.html

http://innate-differences.blogspot.com/2011/07/havdala-heroes.html

http://innate-differences.blogspot.com/2011/07/havdala-zeros.html

grainom said...

Don't be mazxkir the name of der heilige bal shem in the same post that you put up a picture of a shmutzike shchoira with low cut neckline.....

schneur said...

Bray.
Thanks. I will check it out.
It does not change my point.
The Rebbe "hot geshturemt" about 7 Mitzvoth Bnai Noach and our responsibility to see it in action. So much for this mivtzeh.
Here we have an instance where it could be more than talk and there was no ad in the Jewish Week or NYT about the Rebbe's position on this toavah and the 7 Mitzvoth. Ads are put in about Mashiach the Rebbe's birthday etc.
The Rebbes name and image are powerful tools and if used corretcly could have helped the fight against this marriage law
Orthodox lobbyists are all over the place in Albany and DC for a host of issues that they deem crucial like aid to Yeshivas, Pell grnats, etc etc, why the silence about this. Were we ashamed of the Liberal Manhattan jewish legislators who may discover that Chabad is not what Steve Greenberg thinks it is but a "fundamentalist" orthodox Jewish group not frienldy to gay values and pro family.Only a tad different than their heimishe brothers in Monroe , New Skver and BP. Were we scared that the beautiful people mostly Jews may cut their contributions to chabad ?
Where was Sheldon Silver the 2nd most powerful man in Albany who claims to act al daas maranan verabbanan, how did he vote. I wonder how Hikind voted ? Does anyone out there know.Rallies against the Jewish state get thousands of meshugoyim, but a serious challenge to morality gets no response from our rebbes and rabbonim . And we live in the Messianic era ?

Anonymous said...

I believe that there is no issur according to torah for 2 Bnie Noach lesbians to get married
#1)there is noting happening there, pardon my french, so even by Jews it is only a Derabonan to have a relationship.
#2) the Chazal of Kosvin Ketuba was said on a union of 2 males
#3) according to the Mishne Lemelech, who differs with the Ramban there is no issur of Zera levatoala for Bnie Noach's at all.So all this pertaining Bnie Noach is in question.
For all the Bnie Noach halochas there are many seforim out there, as the Chemdas Yisroel from Reb Mier Dun, but the best sefer on that matter is the Mitzvas Hashem of Reb Yonasan Stief, who almost wrote a full Shulchan Orech on this subject.

Anonymous said...

tzig i think i also heard that motzai shabbus and in same sicha the rebbe said from בעש"ט that we have to learn from everybody even רשע u shouldve written that amazing sicha maybe bring it here for the crowd

Le Fin said...

Anon 3:04 That would explain alot of things...that happened...in...L...B...V.........

Anonymous said...

Why Quote the Rebbe on that, it is already brought down in Todoth Yakov Yossef and at length by the Komarner in Notzer Chesed, Emes,the Rebbe lived his life with that Beshtonian rule

Company Man said...

So at the end of the day after mivtzaim and armies of HaShem and tankistn and endless publicity and farbrengens that seemed to go on forever and countless other inyonim that were taken from the famous and the infamous of the 20th Century-after all this Moshiach didn't come and we're still mourning our dead and comforting the survivors.The Rebbe's inyan was Moshiach and it didn't happen,so what was it all about?

Anonymous said...

Company man
For a Jewish boy u are a Fett Shtikel Apikores, And according halacha it is prohibited to share company with this company man.

Savage said...

Shnuer,

you hit it on the head. For that same reason the Haskoloh movement of Chabad are afraid to open their mouths regarding Moshiach and why they stayed quiet regarding Mihu Yehudi. Anywhere and anytime money can be jeopardized it's sha shtil and worse. Like turning the other cheek when it comes to goyim in ..... ve'ain poitzeh peh

OlyJew said...

The Shluchim are "silent" because they have a job to do. Their job given to them by their Mishaleiach is to be Mekarev Yidden - not politics. Regarding Mihu Yehudi the Rebbe specifically told the Shluchim not to get involved.

Anonymous said...

savage
Haskala movement n Chabad????
can u xplain?

Anonymous said...

I think we're missing a larger point here: I think its HIGHLY dangerous for Orthodox Jews to start campaigning about issues involving other citizen's personal lives. There are PLENTY of people in this country that would LOVE to outlaw Shechitah or milah. We may disagree, but it can be strongly argued that both are cruel and violent and need to be outlawed. But we dont want their involvement in our lives, right? So why do we think its OK to start campaigning how others should live theirs?

I think the Frum world has enough problems now that we should be spending our time focused on improving our lives and our communities instead of worrying what the non-Jewish world are doing.

Anonymous said...

Shneur,

Can you please name a few liberal Jews who donate generously to Chabad?

dovy in jersey said...

anon 7:54, you could not be more wrong. it is in san francisco, the bastion of permissiveness, that milah is in danger. empowering the gays will put millah and shechittah in danger, not opposing them.

Anonymous said...

"#3) according to the Mishne Lemelech, who differs with the Ramban there is no issur of Zera levatoala for Bnie Noach's at all.So all this pertaining Bnie Noach is in question...."

misleading comments: It is clear that a ben is ossur in mishkav zochur and chayov missoh even for a koton as codified by Rambam Melochim 10:6 "vechayov al hazochur". Ramban does not dispute this! and is not in question.

While Lubavitchers think that today is everything is reinterpretation, the Rebbe (while telling shluchim not to get involved in the law of mihu yehudi) did not say to lie or to change the truth to say a goy is a yid (and for money) or to misrepresent the nature of of sheva mitzvot bney noach.

Anonymous said...

שו"ת חלקת יעקב אהע"ז יד

חדא דבני"ד אסור זאת לפי דיננו גם לב"נ, לפי המבואר ברמב"ם פכ"א מאיס"ב ה"ח נשים המסוללות זב"ז אסור, וכמעשה ארמ"צ הוא שהזהרנו עליו שנאמר כמעשה ארץ מצרים ל"ת וגו' אלא שאין לוקין עליו, ובהה"מ שם וז"ל וברש"י וריב"ן פירשו נשים המסוללות שדיין ש"ז אהדדי מה שמקבלות מבעליהן, ולפירושם זה בכלל נשים המסוללות, ממילא אסור זאת גם לב"נ כיון דהכתוב מגנה דזה ממעשה מצרים וכנען והוא בכלל עריות דנאסר גם לבן נח, ו

Joe in Australia said...

If we were discussing civil registration of heterosexual relationships then I hope everyone here would support it: it discourages promiscuity, it regularises human behavior, and it makes administering things like inheritance, property law and insurance more convenient. The very same arguments support civil registration of homosexual relationships. I can't see that these civil acts are relevant to prohibitions on homosexual religious marriage.

I acknowledge that homosexual intimacy itself is forbidden by Jewish law - but will civil registration encourage it? Surely it will have the opposite effect: It will discourage promiscuity and (human nature being what it is) I suspect that there will be less intimate contact within a marriage than otherwise.

savage said...

after months of waiting for shluchim to act and after years of pushing the issue of mihu yehudi and seeing that ABSOLutely nothing at all was being done and after the incredible pressure and letters the Rebbe was receiving that for shluchim to be involved they will lose support the Rebbe dropped the issue. THE REBBE realized infortunately who je was dealing with.
THE same is what happened wiyhoshiach which hit its zenith with the 28 nissan talk

savage said...

THEHASKALAH of chabad are the ones who glorify blue ribbon awards and without further ebarassmemt basically niheye kechol hagoyim asher sevivoisainu

Company Man said...

Anon:5:10 Thanks for your "kind" shmitzike insult. I guess that's the only way you can respond. Now tell me did the Rebbe bring Moshiach or are we still going to shive calls R"L both here and in E. Yisroel?After the events of the last week would anyone argue that Moshiach is here?don't forget that a month ago three Lubavitcher girls were blown up in Netanyah while on Mivtza Neshek. These are Moshiach's times?So my comment stands "bimlo tokfo."

Anonymous said...

Again: Yidden, WAKE UP! 70 yrs ago we were being put in ovens and now we live in a country where ALL have the right to live as they please so long as you dont break the law and pay your taxes. IF YOU DONT LIKE THIS CONCEPT, THEN PLEASE MOVE TO COUNTRIES LIKE RUSSIA THAT HAVE VERY STRONG ANTI-GAY MEASURES IN PLACE.

I have never seen such illogical short-sightness. We want the right to do as we please, even though very strong arguments can be made against some of our practices. But when others want the same abilities, to live as they wish, we start protesting and intruding in their lives?? Every day we should thank G-d that we live in a country that gives us, and our fellow citizens, certain basic rights EVEN IF WE DISAGREE WITH THEM.

To stay on the marriage topic: How do you feel about marriage between first cousins? Most people are disgusted by it and consider it incest - to the point where it is ILLEGAL in half the states in this country(http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=4266). Yet this is a common practice that almost all Chissidishe families engage in. Do we want the Govt interfering in our lives with their subjective view on what is moral or not?

The best thing for all religious Jews in America to do is remember how lucky we are to live in a country where we are all afforded the right to live as we please. The moment we start pushing for interference into the lives of others is the moment when the Govt will start interfering with ours.

Anonymous said...

One last (big) point: Why arent more Jews Libertarians?? Since when did we want the subjective views of ANYONE'S religion dictating how we should live? We don't want some guy in SF to outlaw a practice that we want, right? So why do we think its OK to outlaw practices that they want? There are some pretty strong arguments AGAINST milah, but we still want the ability to live our lives according to OUR dictates.

This is VERY, VERY dangerous path, marching in lock step with conservative Christian elements when it comes to regulating how people may, or may not, live.

Anonymous said...

Hey Tzig - why didnt you publish my post about first cousin marriage? It highlighted a very strong point that what we consider OK is not OK by many states in the US, and we probably wouldnt want all states outlawing seeing that its fairly common and accepted amongst Frum Jews, especially Chassidishe Yidden.

Anonymous said...

anon says: "we live in a country where ALL have the right "

to assemble, to protest, to disagree with whatever you say..

Anonymous said...

anon says: "There are some pretty strong arguments AGAINST milah"

Hey I have a feeling you are not gemalerd certainly no p'rieah and metzizah.. am i right?

Anonymous said...

Anon
as religious Jews all our decisions should be done according to torah,Yiddishkiet is absolutely no democracy, if the freedom of our country hands us the power to use our influence of being a Oir Legoim, then we are obligated to route all moral decision in a halachic way. Obviously not thru force chas vesholem, but we definitely have to use our civil rights.
We never had this newfound obligation, but this is the torah way, and stop being fargoished.

Anonymous said...

anon says: "This is VERY, VERY dangerous path, marching in lock step with conservative Christian elements"

Is it ok with you when the "conservative Christian elements" are in lock step with american zionist/jews on issues concerning israel ?

Anonymous said...

Anon
Anon:5:10 Thanks for your "kind" shmitzike insult. I guess that's the only way you can respond"
I dont believe that for a stupid question you have to answer a intelligent answer.
for a Jew who believes in the 13 priciples that Achake Loi Bechol Yom Sheyovoi,who knows that all gedolie yisroel gave Kitzim from the Rambam,(who was officaly against it)Ramban,Gra,Chasam Sofer,many Talmidie habBesht till the Chofetz Chaim, to come forward with such brainstorm questions, I don"t think you deserve a better answer

schneur said...

Anonymous.
Can you please name some heimishe donors to Chabad ? Israel Zupnik , Rubi Schroen, the Reichmanns ??
Rabbosai, Did the Rebbe not command that the Goyim in the US be made aware of the 7 Mitzvoth bnai Noach ? Did not some Chabad people publsih books for Goyim about this matter. Except for rav Eliyahu Ben Amozogh few rabbis spoke of this need , yet the Rebbe broke new ground here.
The Rebbe did not mean politics as you claim. If that was the case then what is rabbi Shemtov doing in DC ? What the Rebbe meant is getting involved in partisan politics. But clearly Luabvitch was involved in politics as regards a Moment of Silence ,Education Day, etc etc.
Liberal Jews supporting Chabad how about Mr.Perelman not exactly a Shomer shabbas, how about theuys and (gals) who appear on Rav Cunin's telthons not exactly former members of the vaad hazenius of Bnai Brak.

schneur said...

Many of the posters here are completely misrepresenting the issue of gay marriage. This is not a question of restricting religious practice at all.It restricts no one as far as marriage goes. What it means is a NEW definition of marriage. Also its a question of empowering a minority to have its life style given legal status. Marriage has been defined for literally hundreds of years in the Anglo American Christian system as betwen a man and a woman , what the Gay communtiy wants is not the right to live together, not the right to do what they do in private , but the legal hechsher to do so with the status of marriage.
Its changing the rules of the game.
No one ahs suggested banning or outlawing gay behavior in New York state or punishing it (even though it was in the old days). What the gay communtiy wants is empowerment not civil rights.
Milah was always permittd in the US and the UK and the issue here is BANNING it , not redefining what the word means ,that is not the issue with Gay marriage.No one wants MILAH to be forced on all citizens of CA or S. Francisco. Here the issue is legal empowerment and a change in the definition of marriage.
If the readers of this blog think this will not affect them. they are wrong . Their children will ask when they see such people who are they he calls himself the wife or husband. YOU WILL HAVE to expalin this and you won't get away with saying Goyim do it as many of these cats are Jewish. It will affect the moral atmosphere eof NY maybe more so than many other things...
The Rebbe in stressing the 7 Mitzvoth BN understood this the Chabad chassidim as individuals also do, but the institutions of Chabad being dependent on the good will of the Liberal Jewish community chooses to ignore the Rebbe's own words as they did in MihU Yehuid and as Rabbi Krinsky did in denying in the NYTimes that Lubavitch supported Netanyahu , when it was clear that in fact they did.That may also be the reason why many Lubavitcher still identify the Rebbe as the mashaich... but only in secret....

schneur said...

Tzig , you ough to remove that picture of this 2 alte menuvalim , it makes me sick and I am sure others feel the same way.
By the way I accuse other sectors of the frum community in ignoring this issue as well. Chabad is only a minor player here (their role here is minimal)and I guess my previous remarks may be taken out of context,The Aguda, OU, RCA, NCYI CRC, Satmar all did very littlein this matter.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

שניאור

צוויי אלטיטשקעס קענען אויך זיין מנובלים
??

ס'דאך 2 אידישע טעכטער

Anonymous said...

צוויי אלטיטשקעס קענען אויך זיין מנובלים
??

well yes! but in this case it's about getting tax and other gov't benefits (like paying for the nurse next to them, maybe)i woulld say 'live and let live'

Company Man said...

Anon.10:35 The kitzin came and went and no one claimed that moshiach had arrived in the cases you mention.After Tar samekh vov did anyone say Moshiach had arrived because certain gedolim had so predicted?Absolutely No! You,however,claim in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary that Moshiach is here. How is he here? when the Fogel family has their throats slashed in Itamar?Just answer this: How can any sane person claim that Moshiach has arrived?By claiming Moshiach is here you are being a kofer in the coming of Moshiach as described in Torah shebiksav and Torah shebalpeh.There are conditions relative to the arrival of Moshiach and they haven't been fulfilled. Period.

Anonymous said...

Company man
"?By claiming Moshiach is here you are being a kofer in the coming of Moshiach as described in Torah shebiksav and Torah shebalpeh.There are conditions relative to the arrival of Moshiach and they haven't been fulfilled. Period."
I am very scared from the word period as if the case is closed,but thank God we have a Torah that is available to Machotev Eitzecho to Shoav Maimecho,so I am ready to discuss you with you the sugya
1) there is no place written in Torah Shebiksav and Baal peh, that saying Moshiach is here now is Kefira, I think it is the opposite it shows that it is for real, and the Moshiach subject is not Hilchasa Liemshicho, it is for real a Bosur Vedom that you can see him in reality,
According to the Rambam who is the only posek that codified all this mamorie chazal in Halacha, claims that there is a Moshiach Vadie and a Chezkas Moshiach, so saying on a person, no matter who that is, that he is in the category of bechazkas Moshiach, is halachic accepted. Obviously if someone errs with his pilpul that the person is Bechazlkas moshiach as Reb Akiva did on Bar Kochva, it is no different that someone errs on a question of Tzumas Hagidim it is all torah and open to us little people for our interpretations,
Whoever knows a little bit about this subject, knows the famous Chasam Sofer in chelek 6 that in every generation there is a tzadik who is Moshiach, so we had one in 1980 and 1991 and now in 2011, you can pick and choose, but where are you coming from with your Kefira labels.
But talking sarcastically on a Tzadik yesoid olem that cried for Moshiach, worked for Moshiach, was Crazy for Moshiach(as he said once for Mielech Nieman)felt Moshiach in the air, with a zilzul is Kefira as laughing from Yiden that are crying at tikun chatzois for the last 2000 years, and asking them where did this all crying bring you, we are at the same stage as 2000 years ago.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"Can you please name some heimishe donors to Chabad ? Israel Zupnik , Rubi Schroen, the Reichmanns ??"
You asked for 3 I will give you 3,
Lev Levieov,Gutnik,Zientz and I willadd the great baal tzedoka Moshe Wiess Z"L and his family zol zien gezunt.

Mekhl said...

Anonymous.
Not 1 gadol accepted your candidate as Masiach at any stage of the game. taht includes greats like the Gerer rebbes, the Vishnitzer Rebbes, Reb Moshe, Rav Padwa the Rov of London, Rabbi O. Yosef, Rabbi Shapiro of merkaz harav, Rabbi H. Schachter of YU, the Bobover rebbe, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Urbach, Rabbi Baruch Shimon Schneeersohn, Not a soul accept for chassidim of that candidate.
Talk about Daas torah of a single individual. If things were as clear as you claim , explain to all of us why no Rav of stature accepted your candidate as anything besidesa Marbitz Torah and zaddik.
I believe the Kotzker remarked nothing as crooked as a straight ladder...

Anonymous said...

Company Man
"After Tar samekh vov did anyone say Moshiach had arrived because certain gedolim had so predicted?Absolutely No! "
It does not matter what people said after Samech Vov, but didnt they slash throats on Samech Vov, what is your point then?
The Shinever Ruv was very worked up on bringing Moshiach for Samech Vov,according to Chasidim he got the stroke from his struggle with the dark side. the Darkie Teshuva of Munkach,went on the pulpit with a promise that he will not come on Samech Vov,since he felt that it is no good for the masses. (I am curious to know his sons view on that)
I heard that Reb Avrohom Shulem stropkover was very mad on the Darkie Teshuva for that, He claimed that he interfered with his father's great vision.
Was the Shinever not as a Manhig as the Darkie Teshuvah? He knew well what he was doing, he was the Raskebehag in that region.What I am getting at, you are a little nobody in this subject, and go learn a little Hilchas shabbos

Anonymous said...

Mekhel
"Not 1 gadol accepted your candidate as Masiach at any stage of the game. taht includes greats like the Gerer rebbes, the Vishnitzer Rebbes, Reb Moshe, Rav Padwa the Rov of London, Rabbi O. Yosef, Rabbi Shapiro of merkaz harav, Rabbi H. Schachter of YU, the Bobover rebbe, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Urbach, Rabbi Baruch Shimon Schneeersohn, Not a soul accept for chassidim of that candidate."
Maybe you are correct, but does it make you in to Kofer when you do believe in the Rebbe as Moshiach?

Anonymous said...

Mechel
"Talk about Daas torah of a single individual. If things were as clear as you claim , explain to all of us why no Rav of stature accepted your candidate as anything besidesa Marbitz Torah and zaddik.
I believe the Kotzker remarked nothing as crooked as a straight ladder..."
what are you saying here?
the only thing I understand is what the Kotzker said, but noting what is pertaining to us

Anonymous said...

anon: "go learn a little Hilchas shabbos"

I learned that in a big city where there are jews who are not 'modei b'eruv' living to gheteher with erlich yiden, u can't buy the city from the mayor! because that method works between yiden and goyim but not when there is yiden 'who dont believe in eruv' therefore all eruvs in large cities are very questionabel! whats your take on that lamden?

Anonymous said...

anon: "does it make you in to Kofer when you do believe in the Rebbe as Moshiach?"

the belzer chasidim (from reb aron z"l) believed so (quitely) so did others (quitely) but when their rebbes died! they gave up! and resorted to the (12th) ani mamin, that even he is delayed I'm longing for his coming daily!

Anonymous said...

You probably know, and if you don't know I will teach you,that you are not allowed to ask your Rebbe a question on a Sugya that he is currently not learning,
Look up the sugya of Shoalin Vediorshin 30 days)
there is a site on the internet that is oisek in that sugya 24/7 who will answer all your question.

Anonymous said...

You are correct, and I agree with you that a dead person aint Moshiach, but if you dont do like the Belzer chasidim or most other chasidim who believed that there Rebbe is Moshiach,you ain't a kofer yet .

Company Man said...

I only said that you are a kofer if you believe in a Moshiach without binyan Beis hamikdash,kibutz golios,techiyas hameisim,an end to illness and death,and an end to war and sufferring.Furthermore there will be nekomoh for all Jews murdered al kidush hashem over the millenia and the Jewish people under the Melech haMoshiach will rule the world.Also,all the churches and mosques will be destroyed as well. You don't have to believe me-just read the Rebbe's siches and if you're not convinced read Veyoel Moshe by the Satmarer Rebbe where he goes through in detail what will happen when Moshiach will come. The rebbe didn't just say to hope for Moshiach,he said he is coming bekorov mamosh ot......tot...tot.I know Yiddish and I know what these words mean. In English the Rebbe said "NOW." Now means now-right now-so have any of the above mentioned conditions been met?The Rebbe himself said a siche on 28 Nissan and I won't repeat the contents but suffice it to say that all of Lubavitch shook like a tsunami had struck after the siche. Vehameivin Yovin.In that siche the Rebbe himself said that he didn't succeed in bringing Moshiach. So why are you so angry?To say that this is a disappointment for those of us who listened to the Rebbe for decades and decades about the imminent arrival of Moshiach is putting it very mildly.Zeit Alle Gezunt.

dovy in jersey said...

Shneur,
very, very well said. I also think that it should be pointed out that the liberals will always look at us as religous fanatics no matter what we do and now matter how tolerant we are of them. it is the liberals who promote gay marriage who also oppose things like millah and shechitah. allowing the gays to gain public acceptance will only give the libs more power and empower them to ban millah and shechittah.

schneur said...

The sad part of this is that the only issues Orthodox Jews flex their political muscle in the US is getting money from the various state and federal governmental agencies.
So what about the concept of Or LaGoyim what about all the rebbe's sichos about the USA and the religious freedom here and the purpose of education and Education Day
Gay rights is off the Orhtodox agenda.
The Skverer rebbe visited Clinton in the White House while Jerusalem was threatened and did not mention this issue.
We can basically say the same of the orthodox parties in Israel.
You can build walls , but you can't hide and this Empowerment of gays will haunt you even in the the Torah centers of CH, Flatbush and BP . Boys its just the begining of the package these people have in store for us.Believe it !

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"So why are the Anshe Chabad in their multiple organizations in the state of vayidom completely silent. A state(NY) wide protest led by Chabad rabbis together with heimishe Yidden and other could be effective."
according to the poskim the 7 Nohaide laws are only halachicaly valid, if they are keeping it for the reason that Hashem told it all to Moshe at Sinai. Otherwise it is a only fight for morals, which is a separate issue. It is obvious that it is almost impossible to achieve, but this is the way the Rambam structured this halacha in Perush Hamishna and the sefer haYad.I would like to know what drives Yehuda Levin on these pet subjects.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"The sad part of this is that the only issues Orthodox Jews flex their political muscle in the US is getting money from the various state and federal governmental agencies. "
for some reason the Gedolim that rebuilt Judaism in the US, didn't give a hoot from where the funds are coming for their Institutions, I remember as a Kid the Chanifa that all charidie mosdois gave for Abe Georges even after he was a out of the closet Homo. The Media had a feast to besmirch him, since being a homo was not cool yet, it was a stain on your total personality. But in our Yeshivahs it was business as usual with him, they made the parades in the camps for him. The only Ruv that made noise against him, was Reb Refoal Blum who was considered then a fringe anti establishment Ruv.Plus he only had a small Yeshiva in Irvington

Anonymous said...

Company Man
three things are for sure
U don't know what the Satmar Ruv writes in his Veyoel
U don't get even the Sichas Chulin of the Lubavicher Rebbe
U don't even understand yourself what you are writing yourself
So why bother,And Zie Gezunt

Anonymous said...

Anon
"3) according to the Mishne Lemelech, who differs with the Ramban there is no issur of Zera levatoala for Bnie Noach's at all.So all this pertaining Bnie Noach is in question...."

misleading comments: It is clear that a ben is ossur in mishkav zochur and chayov missoh even for a koton as codified by Rambam Melochim 10:6 "vechayov al hazochur". Ramban does not dispute this! and is not in question."
Dear sir,
I never ever said that Mishkav zocher is mutar for a ben noach, I know the Rambam well that he learns it from the possuk Vedovak Beishtoi veloi Bezochar,
I was explicitly speaking about Zera Levatola, which is a machlokas haposkim if it is osur for Bnie
Noach., Again Mishkav Zochar is no Zera Levatola.
Before you jump please look better in to the facts.

Company Man said...

Anon 1:45-Don't tell me what I know or don't know. You have a problem with what I said,and I wrote very,very clearly-then please write without commenting on me personally because you don't know me and I don't know you as this is the internet.You have a problem with what the Rebbe said on 28 Nissan then let's hear what's bothering you.And believe me I know exactly what the Rebbe said in that siche.The Veyoel Moshe does not describe what will happen when Moshiach comes?He writes about it for many pages in maamar gimel shavuos trying to establish the order of the events. Then you obviously never learnt the Veyoel Moshe. How do I know if you know anything about the Rebbe's siches or the Veyoel Moshe? Who in fact are you? Another "anonymous" vos dreyt zech arum in the blogosphere?If you can't stand any discussion of Lubavitch in a somewhat critical tone then why are you on the internet?To comment without making one rational argument?

Anonymous said...

Company Men
I thought that with " is putting it very mildly.Zeit Alle Gezunt"
you left the scene and not returning,
I was really happy since it is impossible to debate a person that has a profound understanding in the Sicha and knows the Veyoel.
Ich Hieb Oif Mine Hentelech to the company men....

Anonymous said...

"never ever said that Mishkav zocher is mutar for a ben noach, I know the Rambam well that he learns it from the possuk Vedovak Beishtoi veloi Bezochar,
I was explicitly speaking about Zera Levatola, which is a machlokas haposkim if it is osur for Bnie
Noach., Again Mishkav Zochar is no Zera Levatola.
Before you jump please look better in to the facts".

Which is why I did not say that you stated wrongly; but that they were misleading. and they are. And even if the other aspect is "mutar" it is still not something that yiddin should jump criticizing the critics of something is abhorrent in jewish ideals and poohpoohing what is happening as if nothing happened (in addition that the whole institution of "marriage" the ideal for bney noach "vedovak beeyshes chaveroy" is undermined by "ish nossey ish, isho nossey noshim" maasseh eretz mitzrayim and knaan whichHashem abhorrs).

Company Man said...

Anon7:22 Sarcasm.Personal attacks and not one word about the issues.Mistome iz nito kein entfer af meine kashes.Adios Amigo.

Anonymous said...

why are you saying Mistome? I told you , it is impossible to answer you

Anonymous said...

Anon
On this you are correct, Hoideh Veloi Boish,
My intention was to spoon a little info

Anonymous said...

Que palabras... El pensamiento fenomenal, admirable
http://eru1.myftp.biz/

newuser