Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Reb Chaim - שלשים שנה


(From an anonymous donor)

Story On Matzav

Reb Chaim Shmulevitz was different. It wasn't about him or his aspirations, it was about teaching and about Torah and about instilling Midos Tovos in those who would hear what he has to say. He was old school in the sense that he never picked up the Brisker - or whatever you call it - shtick that others did, maybe only because it was just becoming in style, but I doubt that. They say it was partly due to his being an eynikel of the Alter of Novardok that he had such a unique approach, almost Chassidic in nature as compared to some of the others. His shmuessen were warm and kind, and I believe that's why you hear "love" just as much as awe and respect from his talmidim to him when they reminisce about Reb Chaim.I don't pretend to be a mayven on Reb Chaim, or on any other Torah personality. As a Lubavitcher I can appreciate his tremendous devotion to learning and building Torah. I can appreciate his style despite the general chassidic approach to "misnagdim," because he seems so warm and genuine, as opposed to some of the others. There was some good reading this weekend in the Jewish newspapers and magazines, with the writers coming from all sides of the spectrum. That tells us a lot about a man. His choice of Reb Nochum as Son in law also does... There used to be a nice site where you could hear shiurim and shmuessen, I can't find it online. Anybody know what happened to it?


(Reb Chaim in Shanghai, second from right)

81 comments:

myshkin said...

there are two brothers by the name of shmuelevitz (i think that they might be twins) that are shluchim in israel. one in beit she'an and the other i think in yokne'am. their father lives in bayit v'gan and is a ba'al koreh in the big (misnagdish) shul in the neighborhood. i always wondered if they were the grandchildren of reb chaim shmulevitz, and if they are, how it was that they came to lubavitch?

Anonymous said...

Basically, you like Rav Chaim because "he seems so warm and genuine, as opposed to the others."

I don't dispute your impression of Rav Chaim, but I protest your implications about "the others." Many of the great non-Chabad Roshei Yeshiva were incredibly warm. As someone who is interested and has learned much of Rav Chaim's shiurim in learning, I was more curious to know what you thought of his shiur style.

His mussar is not Chassidish. Its an original blend from Navardok and R' Yerucham.

schneur said...

Navaradok - almost Chassidic Du maynsy dos af an ernst ? Seriously ?

Anonymous said...

Myshkin
The Shmulevitz brothers are not twins.
One of them is a shliach in Bet Shean I believe.
The father is not a baal koreh in the misnagdic shul.
One of the brothers used to joke.
"Kabed ess ovicho" which can also be read "Chabed ess ovicho" i.e turn your father into a Chabadnik, which they did, they are not from a Lubavitch backround and not related to R'Chaim

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch actually copied the idea of "shlichus" from Novardok.

Anonymous said...

The SHmuelevitz brothers were mekarav to chabad by Hamashpia Berl Shur A"h. I cannot remeber in which yeshiva they learned in, but through secret shiurim in chasidus given by HArav SHur, they became lubavitch.

Anonymous said...

>Lubavitch actually copied the idea of "shlichus" from Novardok

Right. And Novharadok got the idea from the medieval Flagellants.

Chaim said...

HT said:"almost Chassidic in nature"

If you think that the above statemant was true About Reb Chaim than either:

a) You have no idea who Reb Chaim was, or anything about him.
b) You have no idea what Chasidus is, or anything about it.
c) You have no idea about anything, and your stam plapling like a women.
d) All of the above.

BTW Reb Chaim hut gut farshtanen vus iz chasidus, and if he would have heard someone say that he was almost Chassidic in nature he would probably fainted.

gevezener ponovizher said...

1. they are twins
2 the father is not a lubavitcher
3. the father had a shaiches with the gerrer ( beis yisroel ) when his wife was pregnant he came to the gerrer for a brocho and the gerrer told him beloshn tzachus ( he was a sharfn )- shnei goyim bevitnech - besser tzvey goyim vi ein misnaged.
heard from the moshpocho

gevezener ponovizher said...

reb chaim was extremely warm to chabad in shanghai and tried to assist the bochrim even when he was instructed not to veda"l

Arthur said...

Tragedy strikes the Holtzbers again
http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=1466

Anonymous said...

gevezener ponovizher said...
reb chaim was extremely warm to chabad in shanghai and tried to assist the bochrim even when he was instructed not to veda"l

I can vouch for that. My father was one of the Lubavitcher talmidim in Shanghai and he always spoke very warmly of Reb Chaim and his rebbitzen and how they went out of their way to try to help the lubavitcher bochurim.

BTW, the true parsha of what happened in Shanghai has not been written but I know some people are working on it. The bochurm themselves took an oath of silence and very few are still with us. This future book is based mostly on letters and telegrams.

Anonymous said...

give us a hint, what happened in shanghai?

Anonymous said...

:מענין לענין באותו ענין

Why did Reb Chaim not stay here in America? How much more Torah could have been produced here had he stayed!

Anonymous said...

REB CHAIM COMBINED TWO WORLDS. THERE WERE BEAUTIFUL PIECES IN YATED, MODIA AND MISHPACHA THIS WEEK. THAT ALONE SAYS HE WAS A GODOL FOR ALL PEOPLE.

Anonymous said...

I do not think the Rebbe can be compared to R' Chaim. R' Chaim actually built hundreds of outstanding talmidei chachomim and embodied the highest levels of hasmodah, hirvanyah and yegiah. The Rebbe built great things for klal yisroel, too--mitzvah tanks, shluchim throughout the world, and encouraged all Jews to learn Chassidus. But they were so different in their views for klal yisroel, that I believe any comparison is inappropriate.

Simcha said...

I love how anonomous commenters talk about the "unknown truth" about Shanghai. Interestingly, only Chabadniks come up with these fairy tails. Get this through your head: Chabad was not prejudiced one bit.

schneur said...

What I gleam from this is the following if Rav Ploni a Belzer Chasid iN LOndon was a nice and eidele Yid and helped the local yeshiva talmidim of the Mussar yeshiva and spoke about bittul hayesh he had a strong shayches with Mussar and the local mashgiach.
After all we are all Yiddn and humans there must be a zad hashave.
But please to show any real affinity one must show something more than being friendly and being a mentsch. As we write I am sure there are many Satmarer who are nice to Gerer , does it mean they have much in common ?
What people forget is that Lubavitch before WW 2 was a White Russian (read Litvishe) Jewish movement The etzem mahus of the Lubavitcher Yid was that of a Litvish weltanschaung and thus the average Lubavitcher Yid had more than a little in common with his Litvishe brother (and in many cases it was literally his brother).
Speaking about Navoradok many Lubavitcher Yiddn in the Polish part of White Russia (Vina area) between 1918-1939 chose to send their sons to N avarhodok Yeshivas and other Litvishe schools in greater White Russia rather than to Otwock whose studnt body was almost all Polish. Zalman Gurary;s mission brings this aspect to mind.Even Bere Gourary did not attend that school.
Of course Vilna had a TTL nad some Anash from the Vilna area sent their sons there as a yeshiva ketana. My father too attended TTL in Vilna for several zemanim.
Let me just add that I spoke to my father many times about Navoradok and that non withstanding the fact that many Children of Anash were there, its shita and philosophy and "oyskuk" were completely different than Chabad. Chabad demanded a joyous view of life, N tooka very different point of view. As my father used to call them yene vos haben gehakt kop ofn vant, in terms of self mortification and peulos.

Anonymous said...

Oh, please. There is no relationship between litvish hashkafo and Chabad Hashkafah.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

What about "Rabi Zalman the Litvak" as he was called by the maggid's other talmidim.

The Bray of Fundie said...

IIRC Rav Chaim z"l and Rav Elya Lazer Dessler z"l were the only two Mussarists to openly quote Chasidisha seforim in their Schmuesen.

Anonymous said...

The Bray: Kindly provide three chassidishe seforim quoted by R' Chaim.

schneur said...

Anonymous.
Certainly there were differences between Lithuanian Chassidim and Litvishe Misngadim, and at times they were huge ! but don't forget they shared many basic human aspects the same dress, the same chedorim (schools in Lita were not segregated according to chassidim or Misnagdim , a melamed taught kids from both groups so did the local talmud Tore and yeshiva ketana) the same dialect of Yiddish, the same shtetlech, the same sort food, in many cases the same rabbonim and posekim (many towns did not have separate Chabad rabbonim like Chaslowitz while others did like Dvinsk) the same genetic code as there were few pure breds in either camp.Both groups shared the Litvishe respect for learning and intellect vehoraya thats why there is a Chaassidus called Chabad designed by the Alter Rebbe for Lithuanian Jews, who were not nispoel from varglotzte eygen and a wild dance!Chabad like other Litvishe Yidden were not in awe of so called meyfsim Osos umefsim be ... was their refrain.
While contemporary "political" situations may warrant a re write of history , the average Nusach ArI Yid in Lita was much closer to his fellow Litvishee Yid than he was to a Polish or Ukrainian Chasid.
Many times my late father would describe Peylishe Gutte Yidden who came to his town in the Vilna region and these people were not accorded the same respect as when he described visiting rabbonim.

Anonymous said...

Parshas Shangchai has not been written because it's too embarrassing even for the (Lubavitch) victims, to even imagine that such a thing could be true. That's why there are denials and deniers (some misnagdim)- because it is so shockingly TRUE.... I heard an ois-shprach fro Harav Raichik ztz"l that I won't repeat even here about R. A. Kalmanovitch. Rabbi Raichik was a tzadik by all accounts (okay - a benoni of Tanya)and he was not shaychus to the opposite of emess. He was a talmid of Shangchai and he told me: "Ich hub alein gezen di boochrim [that died of starvation veda"l] umesaymim betoiv, at least they're not proud of it (veha raya they deny it...). "Der Oibershter vet zicher helfun".....

Yom Tov Sheini

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Get off your Bere Gourary wagon he wasnt capable of learning in a Yeshiva period

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Dont you have Koidenever blood in your veins?

schneur said...

Anonymous.
The answer is NO. I had cousins who were Koidenover, but none of my ancestors were such.
Derech agav one of the leading Chabad chassidim in Kurenitz after the First World War Reb Chaim Hurevitz (shub) was a Koidenover who became a Lubavither Chasid. Koidenov like Lubavitch was very Litvish.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
How can you explan that Koidenv in the last years were very positive vs. Chabad(as you see in the Mishmeres Sholom) eventough they are the real Mamshichim of Kalisk?
On the other hand Slonim same Geza kept the anti chabad philosophy going on till today Reb Sholom Noach would never quote the AR in his seforim even tough many ideas in there are not realy slonim issues as for instance the Tamlichini Aliechem of Rosh Hashane?

kalmy said...

Lubavitcher have red herrings in their artillary arsenal in case of being held to the fire to defend indefensible theologies.
One of the herrings is "what happened in Shanghai"
As far as I know, Lubavitch had a small group of bochrim that numbered about 26, there were two Chanowitz brothers amongst them.Unfortunately one of them was niftar in Shanghai.This is the "source" of all the rumours that Lubavitchers were starved to death.The reality was that Shanghai was packed with refugees and there were many diseases going around with very poor health care.Chanowitz, was a sickly young man before he came to Shanghai and succumbed to disease.
Now the reality check:A couple of boys from the Mir also died in Shanghai, as mentioned in a book about the neis hatzolo that came out a few years ago.
Interestingly enough, I had in my hands a sefer from a bochur from the Mir who died in Shanghai.His name was Arbuz.I don't know anything about him, maybe someone here does.
Btw, the Rov of Shanghai was R'Meir Ashkenazy, who has a son R'Moshe, rov of chabad in Tel Aviv and his grandson is Rav Ashkenazy rov of Kfar Chabad.To say that he allowed the Chabad boys to starve is more than ludicrous.In fact there were about 25 000 Jewish refugees in Shanghai, almost all who survived.
There is a story with the efforts to save the Jews stuck in Europe and the fundraising and who was not exactly involved, but let us not open up pandora boxes.

The other red herring is "cholov akum" something that many rabbonim were matir .Actually, even the Chazon Ish, if the goverment does not allow anything besides cows milk to be added.The basis of the argument is what was the gezeira of Cholov Akum:Was it "ossur" despite the reason not being applicable, i.e a dovor shebeminyon, or was it only prohibited BECAUSE of the specific reason and if that is no longer applicable it is muttar.The Pri Chodosh ruled that it was ONLY ossur if there are non kosher animals that are milked in that area, others disagreed.Btw, uncovered liquids are ossur to drink says the gemoro since we suspect that a snake may have poisoned it.However the shulchan oruch rules that today it's muttar because we no longer have snakes running aroung our houses.


The only thing that remains to be seen is if this post gets through

Anonymous said...

schneur
You probably know that in the times Of Tzeman Tzedek, Chabad had a strong presence in Romania as Yas

Anonymous said...

Kalmy
the Chasam Sofer writes that Cholov Akum is Nessar bebeis din and we have no beis din beminyan ubechochome that can absolve it thats why its ossur today not because chasash Trifoetc.. it is a issur betzem
Reb moshe is not obligated to pasken as the CS but the argument is a strong argument even without the Chasam Sofers powerfull name behind it

Anonymous said...

Kalmy
are you sure that the CI was matir Cholov Akum Or Gevinas akum?
Did the Gemora say that today there is no problem today with overnight open fluids? or some achronim ? because I vaguely remember some gemara in Nida 17

kalmy said...

Anonymous 3:56,
I mentioned earlier that it's a machloikes rishoinim and achroinim.
Btw, the Chasam Sofer in Shulchan Oruch is "melamed zechus" on people who eat food that is baked with cholov akum, something akin to what is used today in production in the food industry.

All I was trying to say is that it's a machloikes and since it's an issur derabonon, there would be more room to be meikel.

Btw, I saw something, from a Lubavitcher rabbi about cholov akum which amazed me.He claims that an issur derabonnon since it's an issur gavrah, is actually worse than an issur deoraysah, that is an issur cheftza, because it means that the person himself becomes a "merkovo" lidvar issur.Look, I don't know Chabsker Toirehs all that well, but this sounds very off.According to this a sofek derabonon is worse than a deoraysah??

kalmy said...

The gemora says giluy is ossur, in Shulchan oruch the psak is that it's muttar bezman hazeh.
The Chazon Ish argued with The Har Tzvi's distinction between milk and powdered milk.R'Hirsh Pesach was mattir powdered milk,HOWEVER,The Chazon Ish was mattir (I don't know if only lehalocho and not lemayseh)Cholv Akum where there are goverment regulations.
I saw once a mayseh that R'Moshe Soloveichik from Zurich asked the Chazon Ish about his heter for cholov akum and the Chazon Ish answered "soon they''ll say I was matir eishes ish"
I cannot verify the mayseh, but I believe the Chazon Ish's heter is printed in his sefer

kalmy said...

Btw
Today there is a very serious problem with milk.The problem is that since cows are fed corn and other feed that their digestive system is not built for, a percentage develop gas in their intestines that is dangerous for them.A procedure where a vet pierces their abdomen to allow the gas to escape is done that renders them 'lichoira" treifa.Cholov of treifo is ossur mideoyrasa.This involves cholov yisroel and off course cholv akum.I think that New Square claim to screen their milk from such cows.Unfortunately with cholv akum it's is probably impossible to do this.
The question apparently is what is the percentage of the cows that have this procedure, to see if the halochos of bittul apply.
Maybe there are other heteirim, maybe if the piercing renders them treifa.
There have been discussions in halachik periodicals about this

gevezener ponovizher said...

kalmy - yu have ignored nahares post about reb moshe telling a yeshivenot to gve cholov stam and that one shoulld ne machmir. as well as nahares other points. so please be quiet

kalmy said...

Gevezener
What are you talking about?

lar said...

ולהתפלל בבית הכנסת של החסידים אין שום חשש בזה, וגזירת רבינו הגר"א ז"ל לא הי' אלא בזמנו שהקילו אז בכבוד תלמידי חכמים לומדי תורה, ולא כן בימינו שהחסידים חולקים כבוד לכל לומדי תורה והם יראי ה' ושומרים תורה ומצוה. אך על דבר שינוי נוסחת התפלה, אסור לשנות בפרהסיא ממנהגיהם ומנוסחאותיהם ובנוסח הקדושה יאמר קדושת כתר בשביל שנאמרת בקול רם ויש בזה איסור לא תתגודדו, וגם שלא לעורר מחלוקת ח"ו, אבל בתפלה בלחש לא ישנה כבודו ממנהג אבותיו וממנהגו מעולם, ויתפלל שמונה עשרה בלחש כנוסח אשכנז.


An interesting teshuva from R'Chaim Berlin, son of the Netziv of Volozhin

Arthur said...

"Interestingly enough, I had in my hands a sefer from a bochur from the Mir who died in Shanghai.His name was Arbuz.I don't know Btw, "the Rov of Shanghai was R'Meir Ashkenazy, who has a son R'Moshe, rov of chabad in Tel Aviv and his grandson is Rav Ashkenazy rov of Kfar Chabad.To say that he allowed the Chabad boys to starve is more than ludicrous.In fact there were about 25 000 Jewish refugees in Shanghai, almost all who survived."
I don't want to stoke the fires of an old machlokes but for the sake of truthfulness I will address some of the points brought up in the above post.
A autobiography was written by an elterer Lubavitcher Chosid R'Shimon Goldman zol zein gezunt, a ish neemon and a man of the highest moral character who was one of the Lubavitcher Shanghier talmidem relates part of the "Shangchai incident" in his book. It seems that all moneys sent to the Shanghayer bochurum from the USA from a organization whose name we will not mention here and was headed by a certain individual whose name we will not mention here (for purposes of "sholom bayis") were funneled through the Shangcaiyer Rov,Rav Ashkenzi.He was told by this individual that none of the money should be given to the Lubavitcher Bochurim.R'Ashkinazi who was a Lubavitcher Chosid himself ,had no choice but to follow the instructions given him.This according to R'Goldman caused R'Askenazi great anguish.In his book R'Goldman writes that he and and all the other Lubavitcher Bochurim were don lekav zechus as to why this seemingly unbelievable incident occurred.For more information as to what transpired please refer to the book whose name escapes me at the moment.Enough said.

Anonymous said...

These are the words of Rabbi Feinstein, the rest is everybodys commentary.ובדבר החלב במדינתנו אשר יש פקוח הממשלה ואם יערבו חלב בהמה טמאה יענשו וגם יסגירו את העסק שלהם, שלכן ודאי פוחדים לערב יש טעם גדול להתיר… יש להתיר גם כשישראל יודעין ידיעה ברורה שהיא כראיה. וזה שאם יערבו יענשו ויצטרכו לסגור העסק שלהם שהוא הרוחה של כמה אלפים והממשלה משגחת אליהם … ולכן הרוצה לסמוך ולהקל יש לו טעם גדול ורשאי וכמו שמקילין בזה הרוב בנ"א שומרי תורה וגם הרבה רבנים … אבל לבעלי נפש מן הראוי להחמיר… וכך אני נוהג להחמיר לעצמי, אבל מי שרוצה להקל הוא עושה כדינא ואין להחשיבו כמזלזל באיסורין.
The other teshuva is where R'Feinsteins was asked by a yeshiva, he tells them that there is an inyan to show kids that mesiras nefesh is needed for yiddishkait.

Anonymous said...

>>A autobiography was written by an elterer Lubavitcher Chosid R'Shimon Goldman zol zein gezunt, a ish neemon and a man of the highest moral character who was one of the Lubavitcher Shanghier talmidem relates part of the "Shangchai incident" in his book. It seems that all moneys sent to the Shanghayer bochurum from the USA from a organization whose name we will not mention here and was headed by a certain individual whose name we will not mention here (for purposes of "sholom bayis") were funneled through the Shangcaiyer Rov,Rav Ashkenzi.He was told by this individual that none of the money should be given to the Lubavitcher Bochurim.R'Ashkinazi who was a Lubavitcher Chosid himself ,had no choice but to follow the instructions given him.This according to R'Goldman caused R'Askenazi great anguish.In his book R'Goldman writes that he and and all the other Lubavitcher Bochurim were don lekav zechus as to why this seemingly unbelievable incident occurred.For more information as to what transpired please refer to the book whose name escapes me at the moment.Enough said.

I heard from R' Chaim Wisoker an ish neeman, tzadik, and gaon beyond description who was in Shanghai that this story is a bubba maiseh. Engouh said.

Anonymous said...

Kalmy
In the Ravs shulchan Oruch Hilchos Shemiras Nefesh he is machmir on Gilu, Are you sure the beis yosef is makil?

The Bray of Fundie said...

anonymous 1:07

I'll bl"n check it out. I distinctly remember him citing a Kedushas Levi.

Anonymous said...

Kalmy
the concept of Chamirim Divrie Sofrim is not only a chabad concept,
Btw, since when is a derabanon chopped liver, especially when the shoresh hoissur is a deorisa, But his biur is not worse then any brisker lomdus

Arthur said...

"I heard from R' Chaim Wisoker an ish neeman, tzadik, and gaon beyond description who was in Shanghai that this story is a bubba maiseh. Engouh said."
Well then the right thing to do is call up R'Shimon Goldman at 718-774-3415 and tell him that he wrote "a "buba maise" and that you know this from " R' Chaim Wisoker an ish neeman, tzadik, and gaon beyond description(I really don't understand how being a Tzadik and Gaon proves that he was or was not aware of this) who was in Shanghai that this story is a bubba maiseh."If the man exists then I'm sure R' Goldman would know him.
Or better yet go down to 603 Empire Blvd. between kingston and Albany in CH and tell him in person.If your afraid to come to CH because me vet farchapen dain neshoma, ,he has a butcher store on Coney Island Ave. in Flatbush and while your there you can go and purchase his book at Eichlers.Last but not least learn how to spell.

gevezener ponovizher said...

kalmy - whats not to understand. nahare wrote a post in response to you ( in last post ) and you havent responded.
anonymous - you yourself quoted r moshe that a bal nefesh should be machmir and that he himself is machmir - so whats the complaint from kalmy vesiyatei that lubavich encourage cholov yisroel

Anonymous said...

I think the butcher shop is long gone.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I think Reb Shimon retired from chopping meat, but he's still with us, b"h.

Anonymous said...

Several points:
#1. RAK did not give for the Amshinover Rebbe (Reb Shimmele) as well as the lubab bochurim. R' Chaim showed my father A"H the letter he received from America and told him that he can help them but they have to sign up as mirrer bochurim. This was a way to circumvent RAK's rules. He told them they can stay in their building, learn chassidus, etc. but on paper they should be listed as mirrer bochurim and then he could give them food and money. The bochurim had a meeting and decided to pass on the offer.
Chanowitz needed medicine and due to RAK's denial to the bochurim, he passed away from illness.
For all you barry gurary fans, I saw some letters the Rashag wrote at the end of the war about this and they are point some nasty fingers at RAK (mir) and RAK (lakewood).

Anonymous said...

>>Well then the right thing to do is call up R'Shimon Goldman at 718-774-3415 and tell him that he wrote "a "buba maise" and that you know this from "

I don't want to embaress him. If you give me your real name, I will do it, though.

>> R' Chaim Wisoker an ish neeman, tzadik, and gaon beyond description(I really don't understand how being a Tzadik and Gaon proves that he was or was not aware of this)

He was in Shanghai, as well. And he is not some obscure man no one outside of Chabad heard about, either.

>>who was in Shanghai that this story is a bubba maiseh."If the man exists then I'm sure R' Goldman would know him.

Wow, you don't know who R' Chaim was? That's pretty ignorant. Look, I will try to make sure I don't write one typo in the future like I did in my earlier post. But you have much information to feed you empty, worthless soul.

Anonymous said...

>>I'll bl"n check it out. I distinctly remember him citing a Kedushas Levi.

I don't believe you are correct.

Arthur said...

"Wow, you don't know who R' Chaim was? That's pretty ignorant. Look, I will try to make sure I don't write one typo in the future like I did in my earlier post. But you have much information to feed you empty, worthless soul."I am sure that there are a lot of chosheve Yidden in the Chassideshe world who you are unaware of.Does that make YOU ignorant?
I may be ignorant but if this Reb Chaim is the Tzaddik you claim he is,then perhaps he was unaware of the hanky panky going on around him.Why is your calling Reb Shimon Goldman contingent upon revealing who I am?What's with the personal attack on me of being an"empty worthless soul"?Do you think personal insult adds to the validity of your claim?Wow, you're such an eidele nesohoma that you "don't want to embarrass him"?That's strange considering the insults you throw around so liberally. Are you so afraid of coming in contact with someone who is a member of the,to paraphrase , "Lubavitcher entity"?Why don't YOU reveal your identity?
You know what? I think your entire post is a crock of pure BS.

Anonymous said...

Arthur,

I threw an insult back because that is how you treated me and treat everyone else. If you don;t like be treated like a degenerate, dont act like one.

I have no problem calling or meeting this obscure man who no one ever heard of, whose tales have been denied by extraordinary Torah giants, but I will not call him without out saying who suggested I call him. Your name and some context would make the whole thing a lot easier. . .unless you have something to hide about your tale.

Hirshel Tzig said...

I have no problem calling or meeting this obscure man who no one ever heard of,

He had a butcher shop on Coney Isl Ave for many years, I'm sure lots of people who actually count for something actually shopped there, probably even former Mirrers themselves. So please let's not try and discredit him just yet.

Anonymous said...

So you are sure that former Mirrers went there, knowing that he said motzi shem rah about them? I am just trying to understand what you mean . . .

Hirshel Tzig said...

I said probably even, that means I'm not sure (where I come from...)

Anonymous said...

Why would you even think so?

Hirshel Tzig said...

1) it was In Flatbush

2) there weren't many others

schneur said...

Ich ken gornisht vegn Slonim oder Koidenov. Men darf fregen bay di kenner.
But what happened is what happened to the machlokes sof Zanz Sadigura , today chasdim of both are meshadech like the Sadigerer being meshadech with the Sharf family... Quarels are allowed to rest.
Jassy as aChabad center I think that was in the time of the Alter Rebbe but by the 20th century there were few native Chabad people in Moldavia. All that was left were a few shuls called Chabad and people named after the Alter rebbe like Dr. Solomon Schechter of JTS who hailed from that region. There were transplants like Rav JL Zirelson and rav Abraham Schneersohn in Kishinev both from Russia.

schneur said...

Barry Gourary not being able to learn in a yeshiva. Well that says a lot about his ancestors does it not?
Fortunetely its not true he studied in TOre VeDaas and got Smicha there for Rav Kushelevitz and others. I have a copy of his Tore Vedaas academic record. Frankly anyone who was capable of doctoral level physics work at Clumbia and Johns Hopkins can learn a blatt gemora and understand chassidius. Punkt farkert how many of the great Talmide chachaomim and musmachim of CH even know what physics is, but are quick to point out that the rebbe had 100 doctorates and his brother was a scientist. By the way can anyone in Ohele Tore tell me what a scientist does ?

Arthur said...

"I have no problem calling or meeting this obscure man who no one ever heard of, whose tales have been denied by extraordinary Torah giants, but I will not call him without out saying who suggested I call him. Your name and some context would make the whole thing a lot easier. . .unless you have something to hide about your tale."
We're not talking about a blatt Gemorah or shverer Ktsos here.Whether the man is "obscure" or not has absolutely no bearing as to the veracity of what he writes.He was there just as your R' Chaim was.I also heard the same from other Shangchaer such as R'Chaim Meir Bukiet Z"L who was my Rosh Yeshiva many years ago,Rav Garlitzky of Montreal,R'Pinya Blatt of NY,R'Nochum Preger Z"L who who davened in the same shul as I did for many years,R'Shea Bronshtein,R'Katz Z"L who was gabai in 770,Rabbi Kotlarsky Z"L who was a choshever yid and father of the Rabbi Kotlarsky who is head of the Shluchem office, amongst many others.The reason that I mentioned R'Shimon Goldman is because he put it in writing.Again the book is readily available .Why are you afraid to read it?
The problem with you guys is that if a fact does not meet your perception of reality you negate it.It's not true,it never happened,you don't know what your talking about etc. etc. this phenomenon is commonly known as "history revisionism".
We see this very often in Art Scroll publications.For example the time they published a book about the Netziv which mentioned that he was a,gasp,Zionist "loi oleinu".The outcry from the Litveshe velt was so loud that they had to call back the first printing and in all the following printings this true fact was omitted and this is only one of many instances of history revisionism which we find even in Chassideshe kriezen.So get your head out of the sand and face reality.Insulting me does not change the veracity of these facts no matter how many "tzadikim" you bring rayis from.This has nothing to do with tzidkus and Lomdus.
Are you aware of Reb Shmuel Munkes,R'Hillel Paritcher,Reb Peretz Chein to name but a few ,all chassdic luminaries and "Torah giants"? I'm sure not, but does that make you a finster am hooretz?

Anonymous said...

>>this phenomenon is commonly known as "history revisionism".

So, for example, placing a yarlmuka on the rebbe uncovered head . . . is that historical revisionism? I am just asking, as I never heard of this phenomenon before.

The balance of your comment is quite telling. "So get your head out of the sand and face reality.Insulting me does not change the veracity of these facts no matter how many "tzadikim" you bring rayis from."

So when you started by insulting me, and acting as a degenerate in other posts--that was to evade reality? I am just asking to make sure. I have never heard of a single "luminary" you mentioned. And its not like I am ignorant about these matters. I would suggest you do a little more research about who I am quoting as opposed to the possible made up characters you are describing.

Finally, I have heard enough of the ridiculous rumors the Chabad rags have made about several kedoshim. The reality is that I have seen it the other way. In fact, I pasted it on this thread. Tzig did not let it in.

Now that is fear.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Fear?

ha.

Hirshel Tzig said...

Your comments were totally off the mark, they mentioned nothing about Shanghai, only some silly comment about Messiah. They were typical of you running out of what to say on this topic so you deviated like the deviant you are.

That warrants a deletion in my book.

Arthur said...

"So when you started by insulting me, and acting as a degenerate in other posts--that was to evade reality? I am just asking to make sure. I have never heard of a single "luminary" you mentioned. And its not like I am ignorant about these matters. I would suggest you do a little more research about who I am quoting as opposed to the possible made up characters you are describing."
The fact that you never heard about the luminaries I mentioned shows your lack of knowledge in Chasidic history.The luminaries you make so lite of were talmedim and chassidim of the Bal Hatanya and the Rebbe Rasha"b.In the same manner I am not familiar with and am "ignorant" of Mirrer yeshiva bochurim who became became "tzadikim" and for which you chose to berate me.
As for creating fictitious individuals who were Lubavitcher Shangchayer bochurem, give me a break and stop making a fool of yourself.Do you actually think I made this all up?It's a matter of public record so go back to the fantasy world that you live in.For a while I thought I was dealing with someone who has some semblance of intelligence.I now see I'm dealing with some sort of moron so there's nothing more to discuss.

Anonymous said...

>>They were typical of you running out of what to say on this topic so you deviated like the deviant you are.

Idiot, read more carefully you fool.

>>It's a matter of public record so go back to the fantasy world that you live in.For a while I thought I was dealing with someone who has some semblance of intelligence.I now see I'm dealing with some sort of moron so there's nothing more to discuss.

Given your incredibly uncouth nature, I have no reason to believe you. These so called tzadikim never existed and, even if they did, could not be tzadikim if they lied about what happened in Shanghai.

Anonymous said...

>>Your comments were totally off the mark, they mentioned nothing about Shanghai, only some silly comment about Messiah. They were typical of you running out of what to say on this topic so you deviated like the deviant you are.

Tzig,

Your dear of the truth being exposed is palpable. Its a shame you are unable to be honest. May the Rebbe help you.

vardi said...

the reason why RAK sent the money specifically for the Mirrers etc and not Lubavitch was because he had asked the Frierdike Rebbe to join in fundraising with Vaad Hatzoloh , but the FR decided to go it alone

Arthur said...

When you haters will do teshuvah for what you say against the Rebbe in writing, I will consider doing teshuvah for what I said against Rav Shach.Otherwise kent ir alle soinei Yisroel klappen kop in vant and post your shmutz and dishonesty with Shmarya.

Anonymous said...

This is quite funny.

Arthur committed aveiros I have never even dreamed of; composed the most vicious, hateful and damning posts one Jew can write about a human being, and yet, he has the nerve to call me a hater!

What on Earth did I write about the Rebbe that can render me a hate? Nothing! You are in such a different world than me, so deeply mired in filth, hubris and dishonesty, that you are completely incapably of looking at yourself and recognizing yourself for what you are. Like the poster who dealt with you so incredibly patiently and kindly when you committed this most eggregious aveirah, I wish that you are capable of doing the right thing and take back the evil you committed. I never said anything bad about the Rebbe. I certainly do not hate him. And I have never written anything about him that can possibly be construed as hatefu;. You have written disgusting things, you just refuse to take it back. And all you are doing is playing the childish game of calling others names which aptly describe your appalling, unjewish behavior.

In the end, you are the real soneh yisoel. Your comments are completely disgusting and unforgivable. The only thing on this thread which remotely comports with "hate" is the belief that the rebbe was not, in fact, Moshiach or the greatest man of his century and many centuries preceding him. Again, if that is hate, what can you--you degenerate--who wrote the things you wrote about Rav Shach possibly have to say for yourself?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

MAYBE HE MEANS the other anonymous?

Anonymous said...

No one else can be accused of hate. Hate can only be defined in terms of what Arthur wrote. No one else came even close.

Anonymous said...

>>the reason why RAK sent the money specifically for the Mirrers etc and not Lubavitch was because he had asked the Frierdike Rebbe to join in fundraising with Vaad Hatzoloh , but the FR decided to go it alone

And yet the Chabad smear machine turns a bling eye to this uncontested fact so that they can stick with their ridiculous, fantastic accusation against an ish elokim, kipshutay. What can you do?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ISH ELOKIM??

SINCE when does a Litvak talk like that?

That's Chabadsker talk, no?

Anonymous said...

>>ISH ELOKIM??

>>SINCE when does a Litvak talk like that?

>>That's Chabadsker talk, no?

Not at all.

Arthur said...

">the reason why RAK sent the money specifically for the Mirrers etc and not Lubavitch was because he had asked the Frierdike Rebbe to join in fundraising with Vaad Hatzoloh , but the FR decided to go it alone"
The question here what came first,the chicken or the egg? Some say the opposite.That RAK sent the money specifically for the Mirrers and therefore the Frierdike Rebbe set up his own tzedokah fund for the Lubavitcher bochurim.As to which version is true is clouded by the mist of history.One thing is sure that which ever way it happened was the root cause of the friction between Lubavitch and Lakewood.

Anonymous said...

>>The question here what came first,the chicken or the egg? Some say the opposite.That RAK sent the money specifically for the Mirrers and therefore the Frierdike Rebbe set up his own tzedokah fund for the Lubavitcher bochurim.As to which version is true is clouded by the mist of history.One thing is sure that which ever way it happened was the root cause of the friction between Lubavitch and Lakewood.

Then you are saying that it happened your way, you dishonst twit.

The reality is the F. Rebbe wanted it his way. However, the Chabad hate machine attempted to spin this their way so as to promote hatred and spread motzi shem rah about the greatest gaon and Jewish leader of his time. Think about it this way, if the history is unclear as to what happened, why is it that you insisted the other way around when it implies such evil? Do you even realize who it is you are besmirching and what you are claiming about him? That aside, its simply untrue. But for some people, like you--specifically--integrity is not a goal to be achieved.

Arthur said...

Arthur said
".As to which version is true is clouded by the mist of history.One thing is sure that which ever way it happened was the root cause of the friction between Lubavitch and Lakewood."
anonymous said
"Then you are saying that it happened your way, you dishonst twit blah blah blah blah."
Tzig
This anonymous which seems to be the same nut case who keeps on posting his sheker vecozov under the anonymity of "anonymous" can't read or chooses not to read what I wrote.I say clearly in my post "As to which version is true is clouded by the mist of history." To which he reply's, in his all encompassing wisdom and "absolute truth" "Then you are saying that it happened your way, you dishonst twit blah blah blah blah." So much for fairness and honesty on his part.I really don't know why you keep on posting this guys blabbering.I have no intention of replying to his ranting any more.He has become a complete bore .Gey taineh zech ois mit ah raineh tzudreita meshugene.

Anonymous said...

>>This anonymous which seems to be the same nut case who keeps on posting his sheker vecozov under the anonymity of "anonymous" can't read or chooses not to read what I wrote.I say clearly in my post "As to which version is true is clouded by the mist of history." To which he reply's, in his all encompassing wisdom and "absolute truth" "Then you are saying that it happened your way, you dishonst twit blah blah blah blah." So much for fairness and honesty on his part.I really don't know why you keep on posting this guys blabbering.I have no intention of replying to his ranting any more.He has become a complete bore .Gey taineh zech ois mit ah raineh tzudreita meshugene.

Arthur, in his typical ignorance and appaling stupidity thinks he can continue to lie. If Lubavitch maintains a certain position which invariably paints an ish elokim as a murderer, despite what he looks at as ambiguous facts (the facts are not ambiguous, it is clear that he is lying) than my questions are very legitamite. Unfortunately, all this piece of illeterate and ignorant piece of garbage can do is write out posts to you complaining about the fact hat his boorishness was exposed. While he is at it, he would go so far as to pretend he did not write that the certain individual did actually do the things that he admits to unsubstantiated by history on this very thread.

His only response, "so much for fairness." Your repeated obscenities and dishonesty render you completely untrustworthy. I marvel at your gall to pretend you are victim here.

Arthur said...

"Arthur, in his typical ignorance and appaling stupidity thinks he can continue to lie. If Lubavitch maintains a certain position which invariably paints an ish elokim as a murderer"
Oh I see ,but you can come, and change the reality of the order of events as they occurred and to paraphrase "maintain a certain position which invariably paints a certain true Ish Elokim The Rebbe RAYAT"Z of purposely doing something that endangered and perhaps killed a number of Lubavitcher bochurim"
Now I understand.
I really had no intention of replying to your lengthy and wordy rants any more but when you attack someone who I consider to have been The Godol Hador and an "Ish Elokim" you left me no choice.
I see that you're still having trouble with your spelling.Learn how to use spell check you filthy ignoramus.

Anonymous said...

>>Now I understand.

I don't think you do. You brought up an issue which was not the subject of this thread. You suggested, categorically, that something happened. Then you acknowledged that you have no support for it. In the process, you--you pruste beheima whose name shall be blotted out forever--more than tacitly suggested that the gadol hador and an ish elokim did something which you know you cannot show he did.

All I did is catch you on this vicious lie.

Your response, with the same dishonest ranting, amounted to: what can I do? I think my Rebbe was blah blah blah so wah wah wah.

You basically suggested that my pointing out that you have said something which you knew not to be true was an attack and someone who you feel was important. Ok. But that does not change the fact that you actually did attack someone.

I don't care about your continued use of evasive techniques. I could care less about the fact that I type very quickly and occassionally misspell. But you are the one who sold his sould--you are the one without integrity.