Thursday, March 26, 2009

Filly's Finest


Rav Elya Svei, z"l

Some idiot sent me a nasty message informing me of the sad news of Reb Elya's death, and suggested that me and others in my community would make seudos and drink mashkeh to "celebrate" the passing of the Rosh Yeshivah. All I can say is: אשרי מי שחושדין אותו ואין בו. Never have I spoken disrespectfully of Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva here. So please keep your distorted feelings to yourself, without passing them on to me. We all know that Reb Elya was no lover of Chassidim, I guess he yarshened that from his Rebbe, RAK. Maybe it's me, but that doesn't mean that he had anything but Shem Shomayim in mind. I know of many chassidim who were his talmidim, including Lubavitcher chassidim, and none of them have anything but very fond memories and the greatest respect for him. We can respectfully disagree with him, but nothing further. The American Yeshiva world lost a fearless leader, one who didn't toe the line and made his feelings very clear to all, even when very unpopular even amongst his peers. He will be sorely missed, and has been since he fell ill years ago.

Zol er hobben a lichtigen Gan Eyden.

117 comments:

AK said...

Hirschel - Wow, I'm impressed. As a proud Philly talmid, and regular reader of your blog, Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post.

Anonymous said...

http://www.vosizneias.com/29467/2009/03/26/brooklyn-ny-solar-power-a-mitzvah/

The Bray of Fundie said...

Bravo to Tzig.

Zkhuso yogen oleynu. Zuhl ehr zayn a gutteh baiter

fakewood inc. said...

you aren't allowed to make hespeidim in nissan.

Anonymous said...

And you forgot about rosh chodesh mr. fakewood.

You also forgot that for a talmid chochom you are allowed too.

shmuel grainom said...

RAK was a misnaged of what you call the "real" chasidus, but was very close with the kopitchnitzer rebbe ztl and others... and was respectful of them as well.
RES followed in RAK ways...

Mottel said...

Nice to see you taking the highroad . . . Keep it up!

fakewood inc. said...

anon

you leave yourself open for so much abuse but in honor of the rabbi i will let it go.

Friendly Anonymous said...

An orderly transition was arranged during his life, with great people in key positions, which has enabled the Yeshiva to continue to grow.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig, I predicted the clean shaven photo, but not your comments.

In Philly, there was k'maat no chasidim there. I don't know about JFK.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you predicted nothing. I googled it and that came up first, that's all there is to it.

What JFK?

I know plenty of Chassidim that learned there.

the Dinover Rebbe's son
the current Stutchiner Rebbe
the list goes on.

I could say more but then I'd divulge details about myself....

Maybe A Litvak said...

I predicted a demeaning photo. No, I don't think you keep such photos in your talis bag.

JFK is the levaya at the airport

I just posted the "Maybe" post

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

oh! you're talking about the levaya! I did not get that. Maybe to the levaya they didn't go, I was talking about bachurim in the Yeshivah.

Maybe A Litvak said...

'tow'. Is that Yekish for 'toe'?

Anonymous said...

CANT COME UP WITH A NICER PICTURE

I HAVE NOT STOPPED CRYING OVER THE LOSS OF A GADOL HADOR IN EVERY WAY

THE LITVISHE WORLD USED TO HAVE LEADERS NOW WE HAVE NO ONE

Isser Zalman said...

The First person on the second row is my father z"l, R' Yankle Weisberg. My father was a close chaver of Reb Elya and they were chavrusas for many years in Torah Vodaas and in the early days of Lakewood. At my my father' levaya 5 years ago Reb Elya was already not well and many were afraid to let him speak, but he insisted. I was deeply impressed by the humility he displayed in that hesped. He said he owed his life to my father because without him he would never had ended up in Lakewood. For someone of his stature to publicly credit his life's accomplishments to a chevar takes a lot of courage and humility.
Yehei Zichro Boruch.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Isser Zalma

Is that the same Weissberg, from the Rav's remarks to Maran 'zug Veisberg az ehr gait mir nisht zugin ver vet zeiin der nexter americaner godel'?

Anonymous said...

In Los Angeles either in 1995 or 1996 he came to participate in a convention and spoke out about the reason that yidden still suffer from the eigel hazohov is because no one spoke out against it. So he said that he must speak out against (i want to be careful here since I heard it from someone who was there not me)Lubavitch or some followers of Lubavitch etc.

Anonymous said...

The world is so much smaller now. The loss is staggering. I doubt America will ever recover.

Maharam Schick said...

"I predicted the clean shaven photo"

"I predicted a demeaning photo"

Memah Naf'Shoch..if it's ok, it's not demeaning,

on the other hand...

n said...

TZIG, you evolved (positively)!

The Bray of Fundie said...

Anony 11:58

We have NO one? Are HoRabbonim Ploni and Almoni chopped liver?

I would name the names but that would no doubt start a מתוך שבחן אתה בא לידי גנותן loshon hora fest so I will desist.

besides לשיטתך ממה נפשך we haven't "had anyone" for at least since he got sick... 5+ years IIRC. So why the wailing and gnashing of teeth about this now?

Simcha said...

"I doubt America will ever recover"
Every generation since Moishe R' has thought that the world ended with the petira of the manhig ha'dor. Yet here we are - Hashem sends us chachomim, tzadikim, manhigim for each doir - one fit and proper for his doir. We feel orphaned because we see new rebbes and rabonim who don't match up to those of the preceeding doir - yet again, each generation has felt that way. I don't worry - today there is a yingel learning in cheder who one day will be the manhig ha'doir for my grandchildren.

AK said...

Hirchel - Regarding the title, I hope that your spelling the yeshiva as "Filly" was not intentional. (You seem to be taking the high road here, and a filly is a young horse.)

I actually think that the title of the prior post is appropriate here: "Daas Teyreh dies a painful death.... "

Anonymous said...

the current Stutchiner Rebbe
Loi Rebbe Veloi Chosid

Anonymous said...

Tzvi
After all your Hispailous, have you ever seen some gevaldiger Shiur of the great Rosh Yeshiva, After all he was a ROSH, not a Chernobler Einikel

Anonymous said...

I am a former Talmud of Rav Elya zt"l and had discussed Chassidim and Chasidus with him many times (I come from a Chasidishe background. Anyone who says he was a misnagid simply never knew him. He always spoke about the Satmar Rav with the greatest reverence and would quote Chasidishe Rebbeim and Seforim many times in his shmusin.

That said, he had real issues and strong disagreements with Chabad and the entire Chabad mihalech. But that does not make him into a misnagid and more than it would have made the Satmar Rav into a misnagid (he also disagreed with the Chabad derech.

Godolim can disagree without being labeled a "misnagid" or any other title.

He was of the Litvishe derech, sure. But a misnagid? No way!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

please don't use the Satmar Rov or the Kopycznitzer as proof that somebody liked chassidim. Anybody with a wee bit of knowledge about either one of them would tell you it means nothing. They might also tell you that they liked the Satmar Rov BECAUSE he disliked what he conisdered chasidishe narishkeiten and beliefs.

Anonymous said...

Hershel:

I was not using the Satmar Rav as proof.

He was not a misnagid because....... well he just wasn't!

As I said, he was a Litvishe for sure and not a Chosid. But he also wasn't a Sefardi or a Yekke (and he did have Sefardim and Yekkes in the Yeshiva - all loyal and beloved Talmidim). No one would ever say that he was against Sefardim or against Yekkes.

He recognized that there were derochim in Yiddishkeit different than his own and respected the. His one real criteria was Limud Hatorah, Miseras Nefesh for Torah and Mitzvos, and Ahavas HaTorah. Virtually every Shmues touched upon one of those topics.

His disagreements with Chabad were not Chasidus disagreements but "Shita" disagreements pertaining to the Rebbe and the Freidika Rebbe only.

He also violently disagreed with R' JB Solovechik. Does that make him anti Brisk or antio Litvish???

Maybe A Litvak said...

Sakmar Rav, btw, had a good relationship with Brisk.

Isser Zalman said...

To Maybe A Litvak:
Yes it is. How did you hear that story?

Anonymous said...

svie talmud

Did he ever really quote Chasidisher seforim in his shmussen?
was it Reb Tzodak? or other ones too?

Anonymous said...

Why shouldn"t a misnaged love Satmar rov, he was into disparaging Rebbes big time, 75% of his ideology is based on anti Rebbes hate? as if Ben Gurion was a chasidishe Rebbe?
Think about it, he said the derech Habaal Shem is gone but not Derech Hgra the Zionist Rabonim were using as much Gra quote for the pro zionist propoganda as chasidic quotes.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

responses to earlier comments:

I have never heard a shiur from RES. Are there any available online?

Why the disparaging remark against the Stutchiner Rebbe here?!

I used the "Filly" spelling only because to write Philly and then "Phinest" would be very strange. Not to compare him to a female horse or anything like that.

I was told in private that he probably had more adversaries amongst the Litvisher than he had in Chabad. People like Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg and others...

Maybe A Litvak said...

Isser Zalman: I can't devulge my identity.

If you don't mind me asking, how did the Rov figure out it was your father, z'l? Process of elimination?

Maybe A Litvak said...

"I was told in private that he probably had more adversaries amongst the Litvisher than he had in Chabad. People like Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg and others..."

No private info needed it. A lot of it was public.

Re R' Weinber, in Baltimore, his son, made reference to it at the levayah re being thrown off the moetzes (moetzes is code word for R' Elya). I think R' Shmuel wanted the Fhilly guys to leave in middle of the levayah, right after those comments.

BTW, R' Elya was big into Mashiach comming soon. Right after he started losing it, he mentioned Mashiach a lot and said it is comming in 2009

Anonymous said...

A little off topic but the stutchiner rebbe althouge not a rebbe in the classical mode ie 6 gabboim and a total disconnect from the poshuter yid is one of the biggest tzadikim of our times devoting 24 7 mamesh to help out yiddishe neshomos of all stripes and affiliations.Ask around there is NO bigger hartz then the rebbe in klal yisroel 2day. hes constantly flying around the world 2 help out fellow yidden

shimon s said...

Tzig,

the old chabadsker (lita) understood what his name (Svei) ment. Would you give it a hungarian try?

yeruchem said...

WHAT'S THE STORY THAT SOMEBODY HERE MENTIONED RE: WEISSBERG NOT TELLING MARAN WHAT TO DO?

please fill in those of us not in the know.

Thank You.

Maybe A Litvak said...

yeruchem

The Rov made that comment re something Wessberg wanted. He said it to Maran. It is a long story and it actually portrays everyone, even Weissman, in a positive light.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

MAL

by Rov you mean the Brisker Rov?

Weissberg was making Gedolim already back then?

Please explain!

anon3 said...

Rav Svei Z"L was related to the Lubavitcher Shvei Brothers even though they spelled their name differently.One of which is on the CH beis din.

Maybe A Litvak said...

I will let Weissberg say the story. Again, everybody is portrayed in a positive light. No need to get excited

Anyways,
'the Rov' is a reference to the Brisker Rov in yeshivisha lingo.

Anonymous said...

I spoke with someone who met the Stutchiner Rebbe at (I think) Kaufman's jewelry in bp and was buying loads of jewelry for(this is what he said)a total of 30k. He then went around to poor families, kallahs, and almonos, to give them some. This was on erev Peasch. I know him somewhat, and thsi story is highly probable to be true, based on my knowledge of him. Can anybody match it?

oldtimer said...

Halevai we would have more like the stutchiner a down to earth no airs about him gem of a man.

Isser Zalman said...

To: Maybe A Litvak.
Not sure how the Rov knew. He was very sharp. My father z"l was a frequnt visitor to the Rov, the Chazon Ish and of course a ben bayis by Rav Isser Zalman.
Rav Elya wanted very much to learn by the Rov. But when the Rov found out he went to collage he adamantly refused. My father asked Rav Shach if he can plead for Rav Elya and tell the Rov "az mir zokt in America az Rav Elya vet zein fun di nexta gedolim in America." To which the Rov responded as you quoted. Rav Ahron also did not want to take Rav Elya for the same reason. My father told him "you took me, I also went to collage". "But I didn't know that. Had I known I would not have taken you either". Do you have charata?". "No". "I promise you you wont have charota for taking Rav Elya". The rest is history.

Anonymous said...

I remember seeing R' Elya Svei in 1984 in front of 770 for the chupah of the Shemtov-Chitrik wedding.(I think RES came at the invitation of R' Avreml Shemtov, father of the choson, R' Eliezer Shemtov, currently shliach of Uruguay).

R' Svei stood on the side, near the door in the doorway that the Rebbe was to use in the later years.

It was obvious that he was trying to be as inconspicuous as possible, lest he be noticed. After all, he was on "enemy" territory.

I cannot recall if RES received any kibudim then. Does anyone remember?

-- Z.I.Y.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Isser Zalman
thanx

I heard that:

what about?

a) Rav Shach's tnay from no explnations, just the plain answer
and
b) the mechilah (numerous times)

Are those also true?

Anonymous said...

Anon:
You missed the point. Philly has bochurim of Sephardi and German extraction but not Hirchian Yekkes. Sons of R Mordechai Eliyahu's talmidim kept their mouth shut about it, and R Ovadiah wasn't looked upon on kindly post 1989. Philly was a place were there was only one acceptable Derech in Avodas Hashem, the Yekkes didn't go to college, the Sephadi Gedolim that didn't fall in favor at any particular time with R Shach were looked down upon, there were many gartelach and bekeshes but I never saw anyone learn Chasidus there.
Only a feste Philly guy can think that R Elya believed that there are different accaptalbe derachim in Avodas Hashem.

AK said...

Anon 7:45 - Regarding Bochurim in Philly learning chasidus, you should know that Reb Shmuel Shlit'a would regularly learn Tanya (yes Hirschel, Tanya) with one of the chasideshe bochurim.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

We're talking about Reb Elya, let's not get off topic here.

Anonymous said...

Anon:

Yes. I am a "festa Philly guy", but I am talking from knowledge, not assumptions. I had many conversations with R' Elya about Chassidim and Chasidus and he was certainly not a Misnagid (At least not the way I understand Misnagid. ie. He would never say that the Derech Habesht is not a true derech in Avodas Hashem even though the Gra did not agree with it. In fact, he held that the Gra was misled about Chasidus.). I I wrote previously, he would often quote Sefrei Chasidus (Sefas Emes, etc.) in his Shmusin and would tell over things from R' Levi Yitzchok MiBarditchev and others.

Disagreement with Chabad (or with Satmar or with Gur) on matters does not make one a misnagid.

Anonymous said...

AK = The only Derech in עבודת ה besides R. Aaron's that was acceptable in Philly was one that was more Kanoish. R Yoshe Ber was called JB, and the attacks against Chabad were personal attacks on the Rebbe that I would rather not repeat.
If Reb Shmuel learned Tanya with one chasidish bochur that still had no discernable affect on the single-mindedness of Philly.
Philly is a Yeshiva with much התמדה, and a מקום תורה with many מעלות. But a place where there are real different acceptable דרכים in Avoda Hashem, it זיכער is not.

Anonymous said...

Hershel:

In my time there was also a son (or Grandson) of Rav Twersky from Milwakee who was a Chasid. He also had two or three other brothers that were Talmidim in hilly and also cousins. All Chasidish with velvet hats and bekashes.

Anonymous said...

Anon= Philly had Litvish Hungarians, Litvish Sephardim, Livish Yekkes, each one keeping there own customs while internalizing the fact that Daas Torah is the be all and end all and is in held only by Litvish Chareidi Roshei Yeshiva.

Anonymous said...

Anon:

Yes of course. The derech that was acceptable (and practiced) in Philly was the derech of Rav Aaron. AQnd the derech that's acceptable in Lubavich is the derech of Chabad. And the derech that's acceptable in Gur is the derech of the Chedushi HoRim and the Sefas emes. And the derech that's acceptable in Skvira is the derech of Chernobel.

So What. None of the above makes anyone a misnagid.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 1101
Some Chassidim are aware of the fact that their Rebbe is their authority while there are other Rebbe and Rebbestaves. In the Litvish world lines like "R Chaim Ozer is Klal Yisrael" have been around for a while now. R Elya cried for an hour on Rosh Hashanah during the pulmus regarding R Steinslaz יבל"ח about how shocking it is that anyone can question R Shach, (when it was clear Ger was backing him). The Litvish world doesn't believe that the Litvish Derech is for Livacks, it believes its for everyone, unless
1. You come from a Chassidish family and have a Rebbe on the Litvish approved list
2. You are more Kannoish than it (although even there it may not be legit, as per the nifter Zt"l machlokes with R Avraham Yehoshua YBD"L

I don't know waht a post 18th century Misnaged is, some I can't say whether R Elya was one. But there were no multiple דרכים in עבודת ה' in his eyes.

Anonymous said...

>>when it was clear Ger was backing him

Most frum groups did not back Steinzaltz. With the singular excpetion of modern orthodox groups who, forgive me for saying this, have little sense of mesorah to begin with, frum jews throughout the world were equivocal in their stance against Rabbi Steinzaltz. Even the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Moshe were against him.

>>Philly is a Yeshiva with much התמדה, and a מקום תורה with many מעלות. But a place where there are real different acceptable דרכים in Avoda Hashem, it זיכער is not.

The same can be said of Chabad. And, the personal insults made by the Rebbe against the Chazon Ish and Rav Shach, well, I would not want go get into that, either.

Anonymous said...

Anon1:50 = Don't know about the Tzitz Eiezer, but R Moshe did (yes I know you could say this doesn't prove anything) gave his works a haskama, and the machlokes about him didn't break out until after he had passed on. Indeed there were a few Steinsalzes in Philly before Elul 5749, and when PBS had a documetary about R Steinsalz, no thought it strange that they came to film Philly to show what learnihg is, (it came out a year later when the matzav was quite different) Ger supported R Steinsalz though.
Regarding the Rebbe, I've heard references to coments regarding the Chazon Ish and Rav Shach, but I'm not sure regrding the details.
I don't think anyone would say that Chabad recognizes different Drachim in Avodas Hashem, though.
But we were discussing Philly.

Anonymous said...

>>Anon1:50 = Don't know about the Tzitz Eiezer, but R Moshe did (yes I know you could say this doesn't prove anything) gave his works a haskama, and the machlokes about him didn't break out until after he had passed on.

Both Rav Moshe and the TE banned Rabbi Steinzaltzes books.

PBS made a documentary on the Rabbi. Time hailed him as the greatest scholar since Rashi (that's a quote). What do they know about scholarship. The vast amount of gedolei yisroel were concerned about his whole sale abdication of the mesorah. It could be he does not know about the mesorah because he is a bt, or he, in his scholarly assessment, thinks it hogwash. The gedolim assered him. And the rest is history. He can continue as the head of the Sandhedrin shel shivim v'echad if he wants (did you know that he started it?), but he is irrelevant to us.

AK said...

Anon 3:31 - I had forgotten about that PBS documentary that came to Yeshiva. We were all amused by it!

However, to set the record straight, no one was aware at that point that it was related to Steinzaltz. The hanhalla was only told that it was about the Talmud.

If I remember correctly, no one found out that it had to do with Steinsaltz until it aired.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:15
Where is Reb Moshe's ban? Never heard of it, and the Jewish Observer conceded that he supported his project early on.
I didn't say that R Steinsalz is the Godol Hador because Time or PBS liked him. I only used the movie as a way of showing how he wasn't considered to be controversial till summer 1989.
The Lubavicher and Gerrer Rabbes didn't asser him neither did Reb Shlomo Zalman, so please don't use the words "the Gedolim".
I'm sure BTW if one were to hold others to the same standards that R Steinsalz were held to, the same people would ban them as well. Particularly R Shimon Shwab for his comments regarding the missing years, and R Shlomo Fisher YBD"l for a plethora of things.
Moreover R Shach was opposed to Artscroll Shas but the Americain Roshei Yeshiva (primarily R Gifter)
told him they wouldn't back his ban
I'm just wondering whether R Steinsalz was judged by a different standard due to his Chabad affiliation.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:32
The raid the day they came to film was that they were making a film about R Steinsalz.
Don't know what the hanhala were told, but the oilam knew.

Anonymous said...

>>Where is Reb Moshe's ban? Never heard of it, and the Jewish Observer conceded that he supported his project early on.

The JO mentioned it in the edition on the Bluzhever Rebbe.

>>I didn't say that R Steinsalz is the Godol Hador because Time or PBS liked him.

He isn't, either way.

>>The Lubavicher and Gerrer Rabbes didn't asser him neither did Reb Shlomo Zalman, so please don't use the words "the Gedolim".

I am sorry, I was referring to the Gedolim of the olam hayehivos who looked at Rabbi Steinzaltz uniformly. I am not so sure about RSZ, but I am surprised about the Gerrer Rebbe. One cannot blame the L Rebbe for being enamored by rabbi steinzaltz, who held the rebbe to be moshiach.

Anonymous said...

Eve the Eida Hachariedis refrained from getting pulled in to the Shach hate band wagon.
I believe that the old Kamenetzky views are more heretical then stiensaltz, to write that 1st 4 perokim in Rambam is foreign goyish is much worse, Nadel from Benai berak's viw are more problematic then stiensalts
As Pres. Johnson said he is a ... but my ...

An Ailemesher said...

R Elya Svei and R. Shmuel Kaminetzky are different in temperment and shittos. How did they get along in Philly?

Anonymous said...

This is a bit old, uber mit a kesher fun shtot:
HaRav Shmuel Kamenetzky shlit"a of Philly, with -ybcl"c- HaChossid R' Yisroel Jacobson z"l, writing a kesuba for a talmid of R"S Berenbaum z"l (both had a kesher with the [unnamed] talmid).

http://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?artID=35534

Interestingly, one of the comments above [in link], claims that yesh omrim, R"S shlit"a was born from the Frierdiker Rebbe's brocha, when the latter visited Philadelphia in 1930.

ANY LEADS oN THIS?

{of course, the pic with R"A Shemtov with -ybcl"c- R' Mendel Futerfas and R' Yaakov Kamenetzky should be mentioned here as well:

http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=259

Check the comments there as well, for the family relation. Agav, some say it was taken by his house in Monsey.}

Maybe A Litvak said...

Ailemesher

It was a Litvishe Moyfes

Anonymous said...

"R"S shlit"a was born from the Frierdiker Rebbe's brocha, when the latter visited Philadelphia in 1930." What does this possibly mean? What were the Kamenetzkys doing in Philadelphia in 1930? (they weren't). Also Rav Shmuel was born in 1925 according to Wikipedia.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Reb Shmuel was born in Lita.

the above comment about him being born in Philly from a Brocho of the FR is silly and untrue.

Yeruchim said...

Isser Zalmen, welcome to the "Tzig", its an honor to have you here.

Maybe A Litvak said...

R' Shmuel, I think is not the oldest son. If the FR gave a brochuh to have a child then it was mikuyim in Nate. What a twist of fate

Tzig

in the new book from Artscoll about Yankel Bender and his parents, there is a photo of R' Shmuel's chasunah with him and R' Eyla. (They were surounding the Goan Hador). You can see the razor burns on their cheeks.

AK said...

Maybe A Litvak - First of all the oldest is R' Binyomin.

Regarding the "razor burn" comment, I am not sure when Reb Elya Zt"l grew his beard, but Reb Shmuel Shlit"a was clean shaven even as Rosh Yeshiva.

Don't forget that Reb Leib Mallin was also clean shaven.

It was a different time back then.

Anonymous said...

To Litvak, Why do you have to talk with these euphemisms that others may disagree with or just don't know who you are talking about - "maran" "gaon hador"? Why can't you just be a normal person and say who you mean. I assume you mean RAK. I learnt in BMG but I would never refer to him as "gaon hador" on this particular blog or to Rav Schach z"l as maran. What is with you exactly?

Maybe A Litvak said...

Misnagdim

Reality is a matter of perception, objective discernment, cautious reasoning, tempered by an effable erudition on assesment predicated on an awareness of context and location

Anonymous said...

"assesment predicated on an awareness of context and location" Exactly correct. This is why I object to you referring to Rav Shach as "maran" on this particular blog. It would be fine on yeshivaworld.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Anon

Are you a chabad sympathier who is trying to demonstrate that Litvaks have no sechel?

You did not learn in Brisk

Anonymous said...

I did learn in Brisk (at least by R' Dovid) and I am not a chabad sympathizer just someone who does have enough sechel and derech eretz to realize that some on this particular forum would object to calling Rav Shach "maran" and RAK as "gaon hador" and just common sense to realize that not everyone would know who you are referring to. It's just shtick on your part so cut it out.

Maybe A Litvak said...

I figured that.

Anonymous said...

"H His one real criteria was Limud Hatorah, Miseras Nefesh for Torah and Mitzvos, and Ahavas HaTorah. Virtually every Shmues touched upon one of those topics."
If this really was the case so why did he hate chabad if all it was only a dif in shittas.
Think before you write!

Anonymous said...

the wienberg fight with rav elya zatal was about this

this is a quote from the awarenescenter website on a diffrent story from years ago!!!

"But Blau of YU said there are more witnesses who are not speaking publicly about what happened at Kerem.

Also in question is how the original allegations were handled. Blau said that there is a letter signed by Weinberg and Rabbi Elya Svei, a leading rabbinic figure from Philadelphia, stating that Weinberg would not be involved in education.

"That is absolutely categorically insane," Weinberg said. "I would love for somebody to produce this document

anyways it seems rabbi svei did care to protect students from molesters

rav wienberg did not belive the alagations about mattis rav svei thought otherwise and it got very persnall

rav svei was just protecting the young students from abuse

Anonymous said...

I tought Svie was against Weinbergs derech in kruv?

Knowingly Cantonized said...

"I tought Svie was against Weinbergs derech in kruv?"

You are confusing the Weinberg brothers. When you are responsible for as many shlichusin as he was, then, and only then, you can describe him in casual tone, till then it is Rabbi, or Rav, and then you can end up in the derech mimutzah

Svie, aka, R'Elya, sometimes known as the Rashkbihag's shliach in America was opposed to the kiruv for two reasons (sheh heym achas)
Mainly, Litvaks don't care about anyone else. He didn't want to mitigate the Rashgibihag's shlichus to alianate as many Jews as possible.
Secondly, the kiruv was patterned after Chabad and it raised halackik issues regarding Darkey Emorey and Chukos Haakom.

AK said...

Knowingly Cantonized - Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about. To insinuate that Reb Elya ZT"L was against kiruv, is ridiculous. Reb Elya founded Sinai Academy and what very involved in kiruv for Russian Jewry.

He was against Aish HaTorah's philosophical approach to kiruv, as opposed to Ohr Somayach's approach to kiruv. He held that Kiruv is best accomplished by showing the beauty of Torah.

Anonymous said...

>>Mainly, Litvaks don't care about anyone else. He didn't want to mitigate the Rashgibihag's shlichus to alianate as many Jews as possible.

This is disgusting. The most unlettered litvak has more love in his small finger for the most distant Jew than the rebbe allegedly had for the Chazon Ish with his whole body.

>>Secondly, the kiruv was patterned after Chabad and it raised halackik issues regarding Darkey Emorey and Chukos Haakom.

Also incorrect. The kiruv movement corrected many of the Rebbes mistakes in this regard.

Kowingly Cantonized said...

"The most unlettered litvak has more love in his small finger for the most distant Jew"

That's because the most distant Jew is not a threat to his shteler

"Also incorrect. The kiruv movement corrected many of the Rebbes mistakes in this regard."

The kiruv movement failed to create a system where the BT's can succesfully integrate with the FFB's. The Rebbe created an atmosphere where they not only coexist, but they intermingle and are somewhat one large group. It was a mofes that the tzugekumehners didn't have an adverse affect on the gibohreners. Another feather in the Rebbes hat. (The real reason behind the shreimal abolishment)

Anonymous said...

Tzig,

I responded to the drivel above. It should be posted.

Anonymous said...

>>That's because the most distant Jew is not a threat to his shteler

Continuing my statement, are you acknowleding that the reason why Chabad has nothing to do with Bnei Torah is because they are threatened?

The kiruv movement failed to create a system where the BT's can succesfully integrate with the FFB's. The Rebbe created an atmosphere where they not only coexist, but they intermingle and are somewhat one large group.

This is untrue. The BTs from Chabad have no shaychus whatsoever to learning. They know a few stories, are deranged with hate against misnagdim, and cannot read. THe BTS from Ohr Someyach and Sho'r Yashuv are very successful.

EDITED FOR STUPIDITY

Anonymous said...

>>EDITED FOR STUPIDITY

then edit the statement that someone whose bed is not yet cold did not care for any Jews.

"Mainly, Litvaks don't care about anyone else. He didn't want to mitigate the Rashgibihag's shlichus to alianate as many Jews as possible."

This is flat out disgusting and shows what a souless, political hack you have become.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what can I say? some comments here bother me more than others.

Plenty of Lubavitchers send me e-mails that how dare I allow comments knocking to get through!

Anonymous said...

Tzig,

Uou have the wrong priorities. You really should edit out that comment. Its vile and beneath contempt.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

"Continuing my statement, are you acknowleding that the reason why Chabad has nothing to do with Bnei Torah is because they are threatened?"

You misunderstood me. You said that Lirwaks are caring for a distant yid. I said that is only because that distant yid is not a threat to his shteler. The shteler supercedes everything

"This is untrue. The BTs from Chabad have no shaychus whatsoever to learning. They know a few stories, are deranged with hate against misnagdim, and cannot read. THe BTS from Ohr Someyach and Sho'r Yashuv are very successful."

Put Sho'r Yashuv on the side. That is a seperate discussion. We are talking about a BT that was trained by one of the programs. In Chabad, true Ahavey Yisroel, the BT's are more accepted, feal more confortable, etc. The gap is not as large.

Anonymous said...

>>You misunderstood me. You said that Lirwaks are caring for a distant yid.

I wrote more than that.

>>I said that is only because that distant yid is not a threat to his shteler. The shteler supercedes everything

And that is an incredibly dumb, assinine thing to write. Because its untrue. Reorting to steretypes preferred by the reverse misnagdim of Chabad does not show you as an intelligent, thinking person.

>>We are talking about a BT that was trained by one of the programs.

Not sure 3what you mean by this.

>>In Chabad, true Ahavey Yisroel, the BT's are more accepted, feal more confortable, etc.

This is not true. First, Chabad only loves those Jews who are in Chabad in one way or another. They hate frim Jews of every other stripe, much like a southern goy hates Jews.

The gap is not as large? I doubt this. But if that were true its because the laity in chabad is helplessly ignorant, so NOT into learning, and only with shallow versions of "deep" chassidus that it takes a beard and a few english books to catch up. This is not the case by everyone else.

Not even close.

Most of the so called maalos you describe do not exist. The remainder are chisranos. Second, the chisranos about Litvaks (and writing in a trashy way about a gadol who just passed on is particularly low--even for a Lubavitcher) are completely untrue. This hate is so removed from reality, that you would laugh if you were educated better.

I would be more than glad to introduce you to other Jews. It would be refreshing from narrow, limited version you have been accustomed to.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

"Reb Elya founded Sinai Academy and what very involved in kiruv for Russian Jewry."

Oh, when he created a seperate but equal institution. Keep them at a distance. What percentage of Sinai's graduates became bney teyrah and integrated into Litwakian society. How many Russians learnt in the 'Philadlephia Yeshiva'?

"I said that is only because that distant yid is not a threat to his shteler. The shteler supercedes everything"

'And that is an incredibly dumb, assinine thing to write. Because its untrue. Reorting to steretypes preferred by the reverse misnagdim of Chabad does not show you as an intelligent, thinking person.'

Thank you for the thoughtfull, articulate and substanstive response. It sheds new light on the discussion at hand and is extremely informative.

Litwak can be soyvel a 'BT' up until one point. Until the 'BT' shteigt ehm ibbur. Then all of the tolerance and varhmkeit dissapears; demonstrating its lack of sincerity. The 'BT' must constantly remember to sit on the proverbial back of the bus. They will smile at him and even socialize with him from their position on the front of the but. But, he never shall come to the front

"The gap is not as large? I doubt this. But if that were true its because the laity in chabad is helplessly ignorant, so NOT into learning, and only with shallow versions of "deep" chassidus that it takes a beard and a few english books to catch up. This is not the case by everyone else."

The Litwak can't respond.

He maintains: 'you are lying about Chabad'
backed up with
"Even if its true, it is only because of some chisoren in Chabad'

He doesn't entertain the possibility, that it is true, because of a mayleh. In middle of the taynes, he says something about sterotypes and prejudices. One wonders if the same paragraph was written by two seperate people

"(and writing in a trashy way about a gadol who just passed on is particularly low--even for a Lubavitcher)"

How do you know that I am a Lubavitcher? Maybe I am a Wolfsen or a Fishman. V'dal

Anonymous said...

>>Thank you for the thoughtfull, articulate and substanstive response. It sheds new light on the discussion at hand and is extremely informative.

All you could come up with was a ridiculously pejorative steretoype. You ought to be informed of the fact that the world is different from the hate filled dogma you were taught.

>>Litwak can be soyvel a 'BT' up until one point. Until the 'BT' shteigt ehm ibbur. Then all of the tolerance and varhmkeit dissapears; demonstrating its lack of sincerity. The 'BT' must constantly remember to sit on the proverbial back of the bus. They will smile at him and even socialize with him from their position on the front of the but. But, he never shall come to the front

Where do you get this from? This is completely untrue.

>>He maintains: 'you are lying about Chabad'
backed up with
"Even if its true, it is only because of some chisoren in Chabad'

>>He doesn't entertain the possibility, that it is true, because of a mayleh. In middle of the taynes, he says something about sterotypes and prejudices. One wonders if the same paragraph was written by two seperate people

One wonders if this paragreaph was written by two seperate people. You raise issues that don't exists without any proof, and then demand proof from me to point out the incorrect assumption you are making. You demonstrate the chisaron I am writing about!


>>How do you know that I am a Lubavitcher? Maybe I am a Wolfsen
or a Fishman. V'dal

I know its ridiculous to ask of a dishonesst person with little intellectual curiosity to talk straight, but please.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

"Where do you get this from? This is completely untrue."

How many people in your circles would take a BT for an eydem?

'One wonders if this paragreaph was written by two seperate people. You raise issues that don't exists without any proof, and then demand proof from me to point out the incorrect assumption you are making. You demonstrate the chisaron I am writing about!'

I see that you struggle with reading comprehension and have difficulty following relatively simple logical deductions.
Go back to your 'dih dih dih geyrushin tutz ich up doorch vus ich git ehr a get'. You probably understand that better.
I had enough of you

Anonymous said...

>>How many people in your circles would take a BT for an eydem?

>>You probably understand that better. I had enough of you

Chabad prides itself on its "love" but fights only with hatred and malice.

The day Lubavitchers love frum Jews as much as it loves wayward Jews will be the day that I will find Lubavitchers demonstrating ahavas yisroel. Until then, they don't love klal yisroel, only potential recruits.

These are metzios, not heart on the sleeve, knee jerk hate-filled statements like yours.

The fact that you may not get the difference would only suggest your lack of intelligence to debate.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Ki loi yonuach horesha al goyrol hatzadikim

Anonymous said...

>>Ki loi yonuach horesha al goyrol hatzadikim

I am sure one day--maybe when you get a lot older--you will appreciate the irony of that statement.

Anonymous said...

Philly took Russian Bochurim after the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

"The fact that you may not get the difference would only suggest your lack of intelligence to debate."

I just hope your 'havunah' is better than your 'hasburah', but as R'Chaim Brisker used to say....

The chisoren daas is not only a chisoren in the mentch, iz felt in der gantze chaloys shem chetzah d'gavrah. It is not a person without sechel, uhber a gantza ahnderah sohd mentch and mer ken klern if it also has a shem netch or it is aneyeh din.

Anonymous said...

>>The chisoren daas is not only a chisoren in the mentch, iz felt in der gantze chaloys shem chetzah d'gavrah. It is not a person without sechel, uhber a gantza ahnderah sohd mentch and mer ken klern if it also has a shem netch or it is aneyeh din.

R' Chaim never said that. You are demonstrating a profound lack of havanah in what he actually mean to say. But what do you know? You are so full of hate, you cannot think.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

'R' Chaim never said that. You are demonstrating a profound lack of havanah in what he actually mean to say. But what do you know? You are so full of hate, you cannot think.'

I know, the mayseh is mechayev daas and therefore a koton's mayseh is not a mayseh
or
The chaloys needs daas and even if it is a good mayse, his daas that shafs the chaloys is lacking
N'M
If it is shayech to make a tnay

But Before you make a tnay, you have to know what you are doing.

A chisron in binah- lihavchin duvur mey duvar- is alos a chisoren daas. After all, im eyn daas, havdaluh minayin? V'Dal

Anonymous said...

Your lack of a formal yeshiva education is glaring.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

I know that s'iz shver tzu fargihnen. Especially if you were mechunech in the antithesesis of that under the facade of kinas soyfrim

Anonymous said...

>>I know that s'iz shver tzu fargihnen. Especially if you were mechunech in the antithesesis of that under the facade of kinas soyfrim

Nebach, this katan cannot even write proper English.

I am starting to see why your sympathy for ballei teshuva outweighs your integrity: you never went to yeshiva.

Knowingly Cantonized said...

"I am starting to see why your sympathy for ballei teshuva outweighs your integrity: you never went to yeshiva."

'sympathy fo ballei teshuva'. What a respectful description and illuminates my earlier point of the gap in your culture between the BT's and the FFB's.
Your comments belie your ideological notions that 'sympathizing', to use your term if I may, is indicatvie of a chisaron in the 'shem toyahr; of yeshivaman.
Nothing surprises me; this is ole reyd
Anyways, there was no evidence from anything you posted that you 'kehn eppes lehren'.
I doubt that you are a 'vort guy'; maybe you are more comfortable cheshbining out the sugya, but you get stuck on the more intiricate details. V'dal

one more thing: your sechel is below par and that krichs areyn in deyn lehren. V'dal

Maybe A Litvak said...

I was closely watching the exchange between KC and Anon. The discussion plumetted from an intellectual debate to a diatribe with odious ad hominems being bown around like an Aruva in the wind.
It is well known amongst of us oysek in pniymyus that an esrog, which the gemara describes as dwelling in the tree the whole year, througout all seasons. Unlike other fruits that are not compatible with all the seasons/elements, the esrog is not only exists harmoniously in all seasons, but actually nurishes and grows.
The explanation is that esrog has more bittul and therefore it can coexist with different fractions. those with less bittul, more zich, are inevtiably going to be at odds with other that are different.
Meyb tayereh breider, please stop the bickering. We just celebrated the birthday of one of the greatest Tzadikim of our time.
Please learn some mentchlichkeit and learn mussor bihispayles: the same mamor chazal again and again untill it gets in your kishkish. In Slobadko, there was a shmuez during Sholesh Seudos and afterwords they used to go into the dark Beis Midrash and repeat to themselves the maymer chazal that was the topic of the shmueze. It started off in a whisper and it gradually reached a crecendo. The mayriv afterwords was like Yom Kippur. Yes, we must ask muhsay..avos, but we can start with the amiledika yidden.
Please, I beseach you

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Am I missing something here?

are there 2 "Maybe a Litvaks?"

Maybe A Litvak said...

Nope. Only one Maybe; maybe a dual personality, but same guf

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so after weeks of bashing, NOW you're calling for peace and harmony???

Maybe A Litvak said...

Like they say, 'ich redt nit tzu aych, ich redt tzu zich, uhn ich muhn ayn fuhn zich'.

Seriously, I don't want to be toyheh ahl harishonis of the leytzenusah d'avoydah zorah

Anonymous said...

'>>sympathy fo ballei teshuva'. What a respectful description and illuminates my earlier point of the gap in your culture between the BT's and the FFB's.

It does not illuminate anything. You started with an unsupportable proposition. And you still cannot back it up. Your hatred toward all frum Jews outside Lubavitch is all that you have to sustain the gaps in your untenable arguments.


>>Your comments belie your ideological notions that 'sympathizing', to use your term if I may, is indicatvie of a chisaron in the 'shem toyahr; of yeshivaman.


You sympathize with no one. YOu just hate. Look up the word sympathetic, familiarize yourself with the English language, try to think, if you can. Maybe you will see why you come across as such an intellectual midget.

>>Nothing surprises me; this is ole reyd

You don't even know yiddish.

>>Anyways, there was no evidence from anything you posted that you 'kehn eppes lehren'.

I never tried.

>>I doubt that you are a 'vort guy'; maybe you are more comfortable cheshbining out the sugya, but you get stuck on the more intiricate details. V'dal

Again. Unsupported propsitions. Who cares about your doubts or theories. You're an idiot.

>>one more thing: your sechel is below par and that krichs areyn in deyn lehren. V'dal

I never wrote anything in learning. You are the one who made poor arguments, cannot write in English, attempted to pretend you can talk in learning, botched up the yiddish languaged, misquoted Reb Chaim, and now you, the intellectual pigmy, are attempting to use personal insults in the desparate hope that no one here on this thread would notice the paucity of your intelligence and integrity.

You also have a hookup with learning. Perhaps, again, this is because you are a bt from chabad who never went to yeshiva, never will learn in one--and all you have accomplished is the irrational hatred of the real victims--the "misnagdim" or "litvaks" you have been indoctrinated to hate.

Anonymous said...

>The discussion plumetted from an intellectual debate to a diatribe with odious ad hominems being bown around like an Aruva in the wind.

Intellectual? Knowingly started with ridiculous steretypes, and maliciously slandered someone who just died. You call that intellectual? He resorted to vicious ad hominum attacks--motzi shem rah, actually--on a mes. He could not answer any charges against him. THen he resorted to additional cheap ad hominum attacks.

Anonymous said...

Tzig,

IS there a justification for not putting up my responses? Or are you such a partisan, political hack that you just don't care.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Anon
You are a sucker; I fooled you withe my knowingly cantonized alter ego. No Lubab would take that name; maybe you will find success in Chasidus

Anonymous said...

>>You are a sucker; I fooled you withe my knowingly cantonized alter ego. No Lubab would take that name; maybe you will find success in Chasidus

No one can find success in chassidus. Especially Chabad.