Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Shanghai Shocker!


Shturem

Read it and weep. We'll discuss it more later.

We always knew it happened, but we never had written proof from that time. Here's a little something that includes shocking accusations regarding RCS, RAKa and the treatment that the Amshinover Rebbe was subjected to in Shanghai.

166 comments:

Minkatcher Aynikle said...

Scary incriminating stuff.

Anonymous said...

maybe translate?

Anonymous said...

My father, z"l, was a Gerrer Chasid who spent the war in Shanghai. There he forged both a lifelong attachment to the Alter Amshinover Rebbe and many strong friendships with Mirrer bochurim.
This is so shocking and disturbing that I must ask where/how/from whom you obtained this and can someone vouch for its authenticity.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

check the "shturem" link above. see what they say there.

Anonymous said...

Ah! Finally the smoking gun! Rabbi Raichik a"h used a choice term when he described "Kalmenovitch" (as I believe I once wrote here...)

Y"T Sheini

Mottel said...

Of note, I've spent a good deal of time around the Talmidim of Shanghai or there (grand)children, and none of them seemed to want to discuss the subject.
A ma'aseh I heard from one of the sons of Rabbi Raichik z"l:

R' Chaim Shmuelevitz tried to find a loophole in the restrictions - if the Talmidei Lubavitch would learn in the Mirer Zal, even if they kept their own rubric of learning, he would list them as students of the Mir and give them money.

The older bochurim, those who had learned in Otwock, got together to discuss their options. They concluded that while they would not be nispoel from the elter Mirrer bochurim [Agav: R' Meir Shapiro once remarked that the talmidim in Mir were Gresser fun im . . . in age]. When it came, however to the younger bochurim - those that had learned in the mesivtos of Lodz or Vilna, and who had not been zoche to spend time with the Frierdike Rebbe, could be lured away from the derech of Chabad. It was better to risk starvation . . .
Hiskashrus ad mesiras nefesh mamash!

anon3 said...

Well well.So what is that shvantz "anomymous" going to tell us now about all the "gedaylem" and other obscure individuals including what was his name, who Arthur supposedly defamed in his so called accusations.Or what will Almost A Litvak in his profound wisdom come up with now.I think that Reb Shimon Goldman and all the Lubavitcher Shanghier deserve an apology from these revisionist "historians".
Those who were involved, including the "gedaylim" ,(and we all know who they were)in this despicable and shameful incident, one that is a disgusting blot on the yeshiveshe historical account, and are not with us now have met their maker and and received their proper "schar".

Anonymous said...

Please Transulate for us "Am Huratzim"

Moshe said...

Hirshel,

Where from this letter do you see RAK having a hand in the situation, he seems to be a mere bystander to the Matzav, I’m not arguing the fact, I really want to get the clear picture. Thanks

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

משה

RAK in this case is RAKa, R Avrohom Kalamanovich. Which is why I added the small a.

Anonymous said...

So Rav Kotler had nothing to do with this because AK was really Kalmanovitz? So says a comment on Shturem.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אוודאי he had to do. the question is just how much.

Anonymous said...

what i find interesting here is that the temimim don't seem to mind the "levad michabad" clause, theyre just arguing that the rest of the money which was intended for all bnei torah should be distributed to them as well.

schneur said...

As I wrote several years ago please take a look in the biogrpahy of the Burshtener rebbe edited by his son in BP. We have an incident where rabbi AY Heschel of Kopishnitz and R. Eichenstein of Burstein went to the HQ of the VH with a lsit of Chassidic refugees in Asiatic Russia. The mazkir of the VH asked them with a smirk in which yeshivas hakedoshos they studied, the Kopishnitzer took R. Eichenstein by the arm and said Lomir geyn(Gayen) these people will not assist us.
By the way this did not start in war time.After WW1 a vaad hayeshivoth was created in Vilna as a fund raising arm for all yeshivas in the Kressy region of Poland (areas that really were Lithuania and Russia (Vohlin) but politically poland.
Reb Chaim Ozer sat at its head . It was run by rabbis Shub , Mishikovski and a vaad horabbonim.
In many of the towns there were serious disputes as to the allocation of funds to Tomche Tmimmim(Achei Tmimmim) in Vilna - one of 2 yeshivas in Vilna. The Chabad comunity in places like Vilna, Kurenitz, Gluboka, Dokshitz and others claimed they were being discriminated aginst and thta not enough money was going to Lubavitch. The Vaad said that in proportion the bachurm represented only a small portion of the bachurim in yeshivas which included large networks like Navarhadok and giant yeshivas like Da Mir.But on the other side many of the contributors were Chabad people who wanted to support Lubavitch.

Friendly Anonymous said...

The argument about the best allocation of limited communal resources goes on today.
e.g. should the priority for Tzedoko funds be Shluchim, Kolelim, Schools, etc.

Re: Shanghai, isn’t it true that the money raised by the Va’ad hatzolo was relatively insignificant as compared to the money given by the Joint, and that their main contribution was in raising awareness of the plight of these b’nai torah, their special constituency?

Also, if the participants themselves have avoided public debate of this issue (and a private letter to the Rasha”g hardly qualifies as such), isn’t it possible that they have valid reasons for this? Do we have enough information to determine that their avoidance of public debate was wrong?

Anonymous said...

This is worse than the maaseh of pilegesh begiva brought down in the sefer navi SHOFTIM .There probably is another side to this issue of why the " ANTI CHABAD" sentiment.Every issue has two sides.

Anonymous said...

>>Well well.So what is that shvantz "anomymous" going to tell us now about all the "gedaylem" and other obscure individuals including what was his name, who Arthur supposedly defamed in his so called accusations

Do you mean the quotation marks by anonomous in the same way you intended it by gedaylim? Is it something you would use in connection with the "rebbe"?

And who is this obscure guy, Goldman?

I cannot access the link to "Shturem." I look forward to reading the "shocking" information fabricated by "Chabad" to create even greater rifts with klal yisroel.

The notion of chabad being "moser nefesh" not to learn in the Mir so that their younger boys will not be "nispoel" by the greater talmidei chachomim there is so ridiculous and childish. They were "moser nefesh", so they alone are responsible for what happened--not RCS and not RAKa.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig: Rav Kalminovitz had many policy disagreements with the Gaon Hador on many issues. You can't infer that the latter was involved in anything the former did; don't be fooled by the harmonious Artscroll/Kranzler depiction of events.
Rav Kalmanovitz knew that the Syrians he brought in would never be Chasidic, are else he wouldn't have exerted himself to save them.
anon the Third
I never claimed that I heard anything from R'Chaim Visoker; it was the anynamous guy. I merely said that he is more reliable than the person you were quoting from.

I need more information
Who is Rabbi Epstein from Chicago?
Why did it have to say 'not for chabad' if the term 'Bney Teyreh' would exclude even the Amshinover?
(Didn't R'Chaim recieve the money on a tnaay?)
If the money excluded all non Litvaks than that meant that Rav Kalmonavitz preferred the Mir yeshiva (and others) over the chasidic groups.It begs the question why?

Two prong question that is intertwined

1) The halachik question of overall preferences in such a situation
a) do you have an initial responsiblity to those who you are responsible for?
b) The Gemara end of Horeyos considers two things regarding prefernce re 'lehachyoysoy' in pidyum shvuyim cases: 1) Inherent chahsivus of the person 2) Importance to the klall

2) If,(assuming Rabbi Epstein wanted everyone to recieve)the funds were intended for everyone, does a gabay tzdakah have the right to be 'mishane' to those who have kidemah in the initial question?

Why didn't the FR send money to his chevrah? If he did, did he have to right 'not for the Litvaks' or was it self understood?

Who else did the Chabad receive funds from? Shumahtiy that they had an exclusive seperate supplier; don't know

Maybe A Litvak said...

'When it came, however to the younger bochurim - those that had learned in the mesivtos of Lodz or Vilna, and who had not been zoche to spend time with the Frierdike Rebbe, could be lured away from the derech of Chabad.'

Why would they be lured away? They could've compared the older bachorim to the Mirrer's and would have confidently remained Chabad. The interactions with the Mirrer bachorim would have only enforced the notion that their Chaisus is better for their Avodas Hashem.

The Mirrer's presumably held that even the older bachorim would be influenced, therefore the caveat and invatation to join was extended to all; they would have been quasi-Mirrers.

Anonymous said...

In Igros of the Rayatz volume 3 there is a sharp condemnation to the Vaad Hatzala from the Rebbe who writes he will not be mochel -- not in this world and not in the next (look it up)!! S. Goldman, in his English biography "From Shedlitz to Safety" writes about these incidents clearly. Some talmidim starved to death due to this.

Maybe A Litvak said...

I am waiting for the post extolling the tremendous hasmadah of the Mirrer yeshivah's bachurim in the times of great duress.

I won't hold my breath

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

MAL

don't. It was mentioned here a long time ago.

Look it up.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig,
Know where it is?

Mottel said...

-Anon 2:45: Goldman is Lubavitcher of Polish origins. His book, from Shedlitz to Safety was discussed previously on this blog. A misnagid like will never understand az m'tar nit upzogen fun Rebbe'n - afilu a kleine vielle.
-Maybe a Litvak: The FR did have a separate organization - but one that gave funds for a different purpose . . . If I recall correctly he gave money to Vaad hatzalah with the intent it would reach the Lubavitcher bochurim. What is more appalling , I believe one of the contacts in Switzerland through which the money was transfered, and the Rav of the Shanghai most definitely, was Lubavitcher.

Let us recall that the term Elter Mirer was used for a reason - a handful of teenage Lubavitcher bochurim could easily be overwhelmed by the entirely intact Mirrer Yeshivah . . . one that had bochurim well into their thirties.

anon3 said...

"Do you mean the quotation marks by anonomous in the same way you intended it by gedaylim? Is it something you would use in connection with the "rebbe"?

And who is this obscure guy, Goldman?"
The quotation marks I used by "anonymous" simply meant a specific "anonymous" (from amongst the many who use this as their pseudonym) who made a fool out of himself with his idiotic posts on this subject.No I would not use quotation marks by the Rebbe.As to who Goldman is,he and his book were discussed a number of times on this blog site.
"I look forward to reading the "shocking" information fabricated by "Chabad" to create even greater rifts with klal yisroel."
Oh come of it already.Stop regurgitating the same tipshis all over again.Nobody fabricated this so atop living in your fantasy world and face reality for a change.

anon3 said...

The Shanghier Rov was a Lubavitcher, Rav Ashkinazi ZT"L,the grandfather of Rav Ashkinazi the present Rov of Kfar Chabad.It was his sorry task to distribute the Vad Hatzolah moneys as per their instructions.

Anonymous said...

The correct location of the above-mentioned impassioned letter of the Rayatz is in volume 6 of Igros [not vol. 3] pp. 196-197. In the letter, the Rayatz points out that he alone supported all the yeshivos in Russia without exception, and now when he is in need -- this is his reward! The letter is a must-read.

shmuel grainom said...

you have to look at the full icture.
what year did the rayatz come to the usa? when did he start interfering with VH activities choosing instead to focus on starting a new tomchei tmimim and starting the l'alter l'tshuva l'alter l'geula campaign?

if he took achrayis for sending money to his own people when he started fundraising for them, why should the vh have given them?

look at the dates very carefully...

sad sad

Dovid said...

Pretty sad stuff. I always thought Rav Aharon Kotler was the one that wrote the telegram chutz mechabad, here in the letter it says Rabbi Kalmanovitz.
Who is R Chaim that is referenced in the letter? Shmulevitz?

Anonymous said...

what's the deal with the amshinovers abuse? anyone have more info?

Anonymous said...

an above poster claims the frierdiker rebbe had his own fundraising org.... where can I read more about it?

Maybe A Litvak said...

Prediction for Next Post:

The money funding the Mir came from people who got rich from Brachos from Friday, or maybe even from Shabbos. The Koyach of the brachos don't work for Shangchay, since they lived in a district that was populated by degenerates and criminals.

Asufey with a Birth Certificate said...

FR agreed with RMBW that Shanghay was not top priority.
Money should be sent primarlity to save the Yidden in Europe
RAK disagreed about the imp of the Mir yeshiva, either because he fealt that RMBW's plans were a shot in the dark (some of them) or he fealt that the Mir Yeshiva was imperative for the future of Teyreh in America. (He probably was right about that)or that it was the best yeshiva in the world/elite of the yeshivaleit in Europe, etc.
Anyways, FR agreed with RMBW so RAK said, then lishetuschah, the money shouldn't go to your bachorim over there. Roughly, something like that

Maybe A Litvak said...

Hearsay: Amshinover considered taking R' Leib Bakst for an eydem.

Tzig, are you aware of the latter's out of body experience and his conversation with the Bes Din She Maylah that took place while he was, rather his guf was, in Shangchay?
He used to repeat it publically

Anonymous said...

This is so clearly a Chabad fabrication and forgery.

Anonymous said...

First off, what was RCS to do halachically once the condition was set forth? Also, how come the Amshinover was so close to the Yeshiva then?

Intentionaly Canonized said...

Did they set a pick-up time with the Amshinover to get his allocation?

Ben Nidah said...

The letter is obviously omitting the information that was crossed out. Maybe the forger thought that it looked more authentic. Maybe it is representative of a sichah, with the missing peaces?

anon3 said...

"This is so clearly a Chabad fabrication and forgery."
What kind of garbage do the haters ram down the throats of idiots like you? The peleh is you actually believe it, like the holocaust deniers.

Anonymous said...

Surely the bored souls as Kehos are able to create a letter like this as a routine chol hamoed activity. Not so impressive.

anon3 said...

"Surely the bored souls as Kehos are able to create a letter like this as a routine chol hamoed activity. Not so impressive."
The place to go for history revisionism about various "gedaylim" is Art Scroll.I understand that they have a full time writer whose specialty is fabrications.Not very impressive either.

Anonymous said...

My uncle was a Tomim in shanghai who has the greatest ahava for all the mirrers.I was with him numerous times when he met a alte mirrer and the hugging was a a sight to behold.tzvei ehrliche yidden mit anderer derochim uber ahvas yisroel is the
ikkar

yankee raichik said...

This letter is tipah min hayam. I heard from my father A"H on the few occasions that he talked about this much more than this, and he said without hesistation that kalmanovitz was responsible for one bochur dying in shanghai (anon Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:34:00 PM said Some talmidim starved to death due to this, it was one bochur).

About RAK, he had a hand in it and my father cringed when people mentioned his name. But it wasn't the same as RAKa. BTW, in Shanghai my father had a very close friendship with R' Chaim Shmulevitz ZT"L and 25 yrs later my father was sent by the Rebbe on a shlichus to EY. He visited the home of Reb Chaim and when his rebbitzen saw him, she recognized him immediately and send a bochur to call Reb Chaim in middle of a shiur to meet my father. He spoke glowingly of him and his efforts to help the tmimim, but his hands were tied by the guys in the US.

After the war, they wanted to write a book similiar to min hamaitzar with all the documents and evidence, but they understood that the FR did not want it. He was more interested in working with whomever he can to stem the assimilation tide that was sweeping america. He did write them a private letter (never printed in igros) that says (regarding the vaad hatzoloh) "yodaiti meihanasse lochem al yidei havaad l'hotzalas soinai chassidim".

In closing, this was a shameful episode but the lubab bochurim took the high road afterwards and let it be. The first to write about it was R' Shimon Goldman and I heard someone is working on a book that has a couple of chapters about this. My father rarely discussed it, and when he did it was only with great reluctance and pain.

Anonymous said...

אין כל חדש תחת השמש - ידוע מאז ומעולם שגם ר' אהרן קוטלר וגם ר' אברהם קלמנוביץ עמדו בראש וועד ההצלה. דעת לנבון נקל שר' קלמנוביץ היה אחראי על הענינים המעשיים וכו', אך ר' קוטלר הלא היה ראש המדברים שלהם בככל מקום, והוא היה זה שניהל מלחמה עזה נגד חב"ד בארה"ב בשנות ה-ת"ש (בענין מאמר מסוים ב'הקריאה והקדושה' כידוע, ועוד).

Anonymous said...

I KNOW MIKE TRESS WHO WAS VERY INVOLVED IN THE VAAD WENT OFTEN TO THE FREIDIKE REBBE.THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY

Maybe A Litvak said...

How did they know where those specific funds came from specifically? Maybe it was from someone whose heart broke when they saw R' Kalmanovitz's chalashing. 'Breng gelt, brehng nisht kein vasser' and 'hub ich gut gichaleshed'?
In a twist of fate, his son davens all day. (And in a bechinah of the chasidim harishonim, he is a greyseh lamdam and ehr ken asach.)

Maybe A Litvak said...

"My uncle was a Tomim in shanghai who has the greatest ahava for all the mirrers.I was with him numerous times when he met a alte mirrer and the hugging was a a sight to behold.tzvei ehrliche yidden mit anderer derochim uber ahvas yisroel is the
ikkar"

This brought tears to my eyes

Safek Mamzer uhber a Vaday Ben Nidah said...

"The correct location of the above-mentioned impassioned letter of the Rayatz is in volume 6 of Igros [not vol. 3] pp. 196-197."

Shucks. That is the one cheleck I don't have

Hyman said...

Hershel, if the $ was earmarked for the Bnei Torah than the $ should go only to the Bnei Torah. Giving it to anyone else is what judaism calles "Gezeila".

Even an honest Lubavitcher knows that Lubavitchers are not what the velt calles 'Bnei Torah".
So whats all the fuss about.

BTW Did the "Tmimim" wear mashiach yarlmulkas back then also? Oh, and did the Lubavitcher meidelach dress like the notorious Lubavitcher 'nashim tzidkanios' of today?

Aay...25 years later the velt is starting to see vus hut Rav Schach gmeint. Yisomin huyinu v'ein Av!

Joe in Australia said...

Even an honest Lubavitcher knows that Lubavitchers are not what the velt calles 'Bnei Torah".So whats all the fuss about.
[...]

That's an outrageous statement, especially in this context.

Yisomin huyinu v'ein Av!I'm quite willing to believe that you don't have one ... and never did.

Anon3 said...

"Even an honest Lubavitcher knows that Lubavitchers are not what the velt calles 'Bnei Torah".So whats all the fuss about etc etc".
Well this prooves there are still real morons out there and this guy is a prime example.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Hyman
Disclaimor: I am not a 'Bab sympathizer

You never read the letter. It said that they showed a list to Rabbi Epstein of all the yeshivos over there.
You are right that the term ben Teyreh is not COLLOQUIALLY describing Chabad.
Don't be poyches in their Kovod, just because a chushivah chasidus took a turn for the worse years later. (Then got a boost when Tzig converted)
I wonder how many of their kids and grandkids are meshichist or meshichists sympathizers.

anon the Third
BTW, My mishpachah also shtams from Lodz

Anonymous said...

Anybody check the typewriter font for loshon hakodesh.It could be an after the war model.From which model loshon hakodesh typewriter was the letter typed?

Anonymous said...

if the amshinvoer rebbe didn't quaalify as a "ben torah" r"l why the shock that lubabs didnt?!

hey raichik! give us some more info

anon3 said...

"Anybody check the typewriter font for loshon hakodesh.It could be an after the war model.From which model loshon hakodesh typewriter was the letter typed?"
Nu,maybe we ought to pass around the hat for funds to hire CSI NY to look into the matter.Vus noch?

Maybe A Litvak said...

"Nu,maybe we ought to pass around the hat for funds to hire CSI NY to look into the matter.Vus noch?"

Only if that is a Litvisheh moysed.

You are being mechaseh something. You obviously are emotionally invested in this. Why? It didn't happen merely by reading the book. Don't you shtam from Poylesher?

Anon3 said...

"anon the Third
BTW, My mishpachah also shtams from Lodz"
Both my paternal grandparents died in the Lodzer getto of typhus R"L.

Maybe A Litvak said...

anon the third
We don't know what happended to my mishpachah. We have no details. K'mat no one made it out.
Which ghetto was it that the head of the judenrat asked the mamaas to give up the kinder, was it Lodge? They had a documentary showing in BP years ago
It hurts to talk about this

Anonymous said...

The letter looks like it was pasted together.This means that it was not one piece of paper. The middle paragraph is on a slant. The posting of the letter may have had parts in it not posted. On a computer screen there may be grounds for thinking so. As the moderator you know the source of the letter and can tell if it was one continuous sheet.

anon3 said...

"You are being mechaseh something. You obviously are emotionally invested in this"
No. I actually have no emotional involvement in this inyan at all.I am just a seeker after truth and justice and can't stand what passes for accurate historical content in the frum Jewish world today.

Maybe A Litvak said...

Der dtiteh anon
Who do you think was the most unrecgnized Adom Godel?

Kalman said...

"what year did the rayatz come to the usa? when did he start interfering with VH activities choosing instead to focus on starting a new tomchei tmimim"

More jibberish...a generation brouhght up on artscroll! Gevald!

But this is difficult to falsify because eyewitnesses are STILL HERE and they cannot be refuted. And they tell a different story.

The FR, upon arriving in 1940 approached the powers that be to work together in a unified group. After getting poked in both eyes and not only stymied in his efforts but ridiculed (someone who never opened a sefer of Chassidus jests that Der Zelber Shor Du, iz Dort, can only bespeak an extremely unrefined charachter...) he rightly concluded 'siz nisht du mit veimen tzu geinn 'tzum tish and went it alone.

Can't figure out why the FR was treated so "royally", I would think he would have earned his stripes having been Moiser Nefesh Kipshuto, being under Mishpat Mofes for helping Jews while others were zitzin oif kest in Poiland.

As far as R' Michoel Ber, what he felt for both RAKs is also common knowledge. DER BLUTTEKE SHAS!!!

Arur Haman said...

Hyman said...
Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:47:00 AM

Look what an ignorant moron you are! You can't even spell your name right (very important, as a name indicates that person's soul and character): it is HAMAN not Hyman!

LkwdGuy said...

To many, the publication of this letter will have the opposite effect than what you are seeking. Rav Ahron's status as the Gadol Hador and as the Avi Avos of all bnei torah in America is not now, nor will it ever be under consideration. That Rav Ahron's daas was absolute daas torah will also not be under consideration. This will leave many with only a limited number of options. Either the story is a complete or partial fabrication, or (and this is where we get to the opposite of your intended effect) Chabad was treif even 60 years ago and even more treif than what most of the haintige yeshivaleit would imagine.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

twisted logic if I ever saw any.

Amir said...

Lkwdguy,

You really make me laugh...you've made intelligent, cogent comments in the past, how can you write something so unintelligable.

Your saying that he is the this or the that is immaterial, because I say so and so is the Manhig and Joe down the street says his guy is the Nosei and so on and so on.

I mean, what do you call upon to substantiate your claim, general acclamation at the Aguda Convention? Why should your feelings in anyway effect judgement of someone's actions.

Your last sentence left out one more choice....that HE MADE A MISTAKE. That is possible, isn't it? I mean, you don't believe him to be infallible or...divinely omnipotent, do you??

Maybe A Litvak said...

Kalman=anon3
For the last time: R' Michel Ber's issue was not related to the Mir yeshiva, but to Shangchay in general.

Lkwd Guy
I didn't know that people who think that why actually know how to type; unless you are a Lkwd Gal.

Anonymous said...

>>Oh come of it already.Stop regurgitating the same tipshis all over again.Nobody fabricated this so atop living in your fantasy world and face reality for a change.

You are a real hater. This is clearly a forgery. There are books documenting the opposite. Tzig is too scared to let me paste it here--he is too frightened of the truth.

>>Your last sentence left out one more choice....that HE MADE A MISTAKE.

The "rebbe" made mistakes. Would you admit that? or is he divine?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

me, afraid?
don't kid yourself, pal.

Anonymous said...

So why did you refuse to post it, PAL? Because you know the truth, and all the spin manufactured by Chabad cannot change the facts.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

refuse to post what?

I post all your garbage here.

PAL

Anonymous said...

No you didn't. I posted a passage from a book a month ago. You did not let it in.

So even though you write all your hateful garbage and allow even worse, you never allow any facts on the post which demonstrates that your garbage is untrue.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you're talking about Rigg's book?

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig. you confuse me. I put in pro Chabad stuff and you deleted it?!

Anon3 said...

"You are a real hater. This is clearly a forgery. There are books documenting the opposite. Tzig is too scared to let me paste it here--he is too frightened of the truth."
This is "clearly a forgery".Who says so,you?
"There are books documenting the opposite."
Please name them on this blog site.Name chapter and verse or are we going to get the same run around as usual ,that "it's well known" or perhaps "it's around on the blogs","Google it" "you can get these books from Biegeleisen or maybe even Eichlers carry' s them" "their floating around in cyber space" or some other sorry excuse for intelligence.
MAL
I am not Kalman and I don't know what you'r referring to in your last post.
As to who is the greatest unrecognized godol,your guess is as good as mine.In any case what relevancy does this have to this discussion?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

is that "pro" in your universe?

Maybe A Litvak said...

lol

Did you get the carpenter reference?

LkwdGuy said...

Amir:

You really make me laugh...you've made intelligent, cogent comments in the past, how can you write something so unintelligable.Thank you for your kind words regarding my past comments.

I mean, what do you call upon to substantiate your claim, general acclamation at the Aguda Convention? Why should your feelings in anyway effect judgement of someone's actions.I was making no claim, only pointing out that the net effect of disseminating this story might be very different than what those that are promulgating it might expect.

Your last sentence left out one more choice....that HE MADE A MISTAKE. That is possible, isn't it? I mean, you don't believe him to be infallible or...divinely omnipotent, do you??I have no doubt, nor to I believe anyone doubts, that Rav Ahron like all human beings, was capable and did make mistakes. That said, I am still of the opinion that many people will draw the conclusion that I stated at the end of my first comment.

L F said...

Chevra ,lets go easy on these guys. It must be tough,after years of being brought up on the Artscroll /sanitized version of these "GEDAYLIM" to read this stuff. I mean ,how would we feel if we found out ,say,that Reb Hillil Paritcher,or Itcha the Masmid,were secretly doing one of the Big 3. It would be tough. Its quite pathetic. There best arguments are : "Its forged" , "The bored souls at Kehos made it up". Cmon,you snags can do better then that. Besides its their cranky time of the year. Those sefira beards are starting to get itchy (unless they have a "Heter ",since there going on a Shidduch Date).

Maybe A Litvak said...

Lkwd guy is a lawyer. Interesting

LkwdGuy said...

Lkwd Guy
I didn't know that people who think that why actually know how to type; unless you are a Lkwd Gal.
MAL,

Before posting wisecracks about who you think can or cannot type, I would strongly advise reading and rereading your comment.

To your point, did you ever consider that perhaps there is lots that you didn't know about people who think that way. Agav, although there is no way I can prove it to you, I am a guy.

yankee raichik said...

Anonymous said...

hey raichik! give us some more info

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:03:00 AM

We have files of letters & telegrams that discuss this issue. Tzig found one and look how much AY came from it. The tmimim made a decision not to print a book and we stand by it.

I do have one question for MIL & other RAK defenders. Why was almost the entire mir yeshiva saved and not kaminetz, ponovitch, baranovich, slabodka, etc? In the summer of 1940, all these yeshivas were living somewhere around vilna and kovno, yet only mir and the lubabs took the sugihara visas and fled thru russia to kobe and later shanghai. Where were the rest of them? I heard from my father A"H the true story (not the artscroll doctored version). When the word got out about the visas, the RY's had a meeting. They decided peh echod not to take them for fear that the russians will grab the bochurim and send them to siberia or draft them. The lubabs asked the FR and he said take them. The mirers were already at that time somewhat older bochurim, so they ignored the RY's, got visas, stole R' Chaim's passport and got him a visa, and then told him you're coming with us. My father met with sugihara for the lubabs, so he knew what others were doing.

Again this is tipah min hayam, but this story I heard several times from my father.

Maybe A Litvak said...

'Agav, although there is no way I can prove it to you, I am a guy.'

You proved it already. There are no Lkwd Gal lawyers

'To your point, did you ever consider that perhaps there is lots that you didn't know about people who think that way'

Nope. I have initimate knowledge about 'people who think that way'. I might even be one of those people, Maybe.

You are impressionable and exposure to countervailing notions has the intended affect of proximately causing you to question and doubt your core principals. Consequently, you assume and offensive posture that is revealing and satisfies the highest teir test of transparency. V'dal

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

MAL

I speak English, yet have NO idea what you just wrote...

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig
It was snag code

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I speak snag code.

LkwdGuy said...

It was snag codePlease rewrite it bearing in mind that I wear a gartel.

Maybe said...

Raichik

We all know that. There is no one who ever stepped foot in Bensonherst that is unaware of that

Yaakov Yosef said...

>>Please name them on this blog site.Name chapter and verse or are we going to get the same run around as usual ,that "it's well known" or perhaps "it's around on the blogs","Google it" "you can get these books from Biegeleisen or maybe even Eichlers carry' s them" "their floating around in cyber space" or some other sorry excuse for intelligence.

Feel free to read "Rescued from the Reich," by Bryan Mark Rigg, Cambridge University Press, 2005 wherein it describes how the response of the sixth Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn to the Holocaust was condemned from a number of quarters. Bryan Mark Rigg wrote his PhD thesis on the subject an Cambridge University. He quotes Rabbi Alex Weisfogel, secretary of Rabbi Avraham Kalmanowitz of the Vaad Hatzalah as saying that Kalmanowitz and Aaron Kotler were appalled at Schneersohn's focus on "bringing the messiah" while the war continued.

As I wrote: It goes both ways. But your hatred will remain one-sided.

>>Chevra ,lets go easy on these guys. It must be tough,after years of being brought up on the Artscroll /sanitized version of these "GEDAYLIM" to read this stuff. I mean ,how would we feel if we found out ,say,that Reb Hillil Paritcher,or Itcha the Masmid,were secretly doing one of the Big 3. It would be tough. Its quite pathetic. There best arguments are : "Its forged" , "The bored souls at Kehos made it up". Cmon,you snags can do better then that. Besides its their cranky time of the year. Those sefira beards are starting to get itchy (unless they have a "Heter ",since there going on a Shidduch Date).

Naar vus du bist: Remember the Chabad reaction to Larger than Life? There the book presented historical truth. Here, Tzig is presenting one-sided "evidence" while ignoring, completely, the equally valid possibility suggested by documents and data which suggest the exact opposite. That is because Chabad invented Hero worship to a degree of absurdity. Making fun of gedaylim only demonstrates the sad problem Chabad faces when it comes to thinking straight and honestly about themselves.

Mottel said...

-Maybe a Litvak: Lodze indeed was the ghetto where the head of the Judenraat ran a particularly tight ship . . . it was also the last ghetto to be liquidated.

L F said...

I read Larger the Life cover to cover. I also spent quite a bit of time discussing it with the mechaber. Even if every word is true it didnt cause in me any lack in Hiskashrus. BTW ,talk about one sided : Where did the Lioshne Rebbe get his inside information ?

yankee raichik said...

Maybe said...
Raichik

We all know that. There is no one who ever stepped foot in Bensonherst that is unaware of that

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:47:00 PM

Sure, everyone who stepped into bais hatalmud probably heard this story. Most people haven't made it there. BTW, when R' Yisroel Pykovski A"H would come around LA to raise money, he would make a point of meeting my father to rehash old times in shanghai.

Asufey mit ah Birth Certificate said...

"BTW, when R' Yisroel Pykovski A"H would come around LA to raise money, he would make a point of meeting my father to rehash old times in shanghai."

Doesn't surprise me. Must be Beis Hatalmud disdains Chabad because they were influenced by R' Yankef and R' Ruderman. V'dal

Amir said...

"Rav Ahron like all human beings, was capable and did make mistakes. That said, I am still of the opinion that many people will draw the conclusion that I stated at the end of my first comment."

That said, your ironclad conclusion of two possibilities has now a third...that he was wrong in denying the money to the Lubavitchers.

You can't have it both ways...if he can make a mistake, then the letter could be real and Lubavitch Kosher.

Anonymous said...

Like at a court trial,one of your bloggers mentioned Larger Than Life which had two volumes published. There was mention made in one of the volumes that a particular subject will be discussed in future Volume No.5.To the best of my knowledge ,no volumes after No.2 ever appeared? . What happened to the publication of the other volumes? I am not commenting on the veracity of any of the items discussed in Larger Than Life,Volumes 1 and 2

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Please note that the Talmidim still called Reb Yudel Eber, their Rosh Yeshiva, "shlita." They thought he was still alive...

Benny said...

Yankee Raichik,
I have not yet read the whole thread, but can confirm that the story you write about a decision by Roshe Yeshiva NOT to take the Japanese visas was told to me by a Kletzker Talmid, who was urged to get a visa by a landsman of his from Brisk.He told that the bochurim in The Mir some of whom were in their .30's at the time decided that they would take the visas.He met R'Ahron Kotler on the train going to get the visa but did not want to tell him why he was on the train(because it had been decided not to take the visas).Afterwards, when he was saved and got to Japan R'Ahron was overjoyed and got him a visa into America (or Canada, don't recall)in about '41.

BUT,
I don't know what you are trying to say?Obviously the decision not to take the visas was what they believed was right at the time.It's no big chochma to have perfect hindsight.Many Rebbes and rabbonim ,actually almost all,includind the R'Yosef Yitzcok of Lubavitch, had no idea of what would befall the yidden stuck in Europe, till it was way to late.

LkwdGuy said...

Amir,

He could have made a mistake, the letter could be real and Lubavitch could be bais yosef glatt and I am still of the opinion that many people will draw the conclusion that I stated at the end of my first comment.

All I am trying (apparently not very successfully) to point out is that the story can potentially backfire on those who are trying to use it to besmirch Rav Ahron's legacy.

Anonymous said...

Chabad does not care about that.

ein, tsvei, drei said...

Lakewood guy!
You appear to be right about this (anonymous?)letter backfiring.Let me explain:Chabad inc. has always promoted a story about Lubavitcher boys starving chas vesholom to death in Shanchai because of the "cruel" misnagdishe rabbonim not giving them any money .This letter appears to "omit" this "important" point (also "omits" the Lubavitcher blood used in Snag machnine matzos)The reason the point was omitted from the letter was because it is totally untrue and the writer of the letter knew better than write it.
Actually, in all lies there are kernels of truth, the truth here is there was unfortunately a Lubavitcher boy who died, not out of starvation of course.His name was Chanowitz he has a brother in Crown Heights.He was a sickly bochur back in Europe and succumbed to disease in Shanghai, where disease was rampant and a number of the Mirrer were also niftar.

As I see it Rabbi Kalmanovitz felt that Lubavitch in America was not doing it's fair share in raising money and in generally in Hatzolo, this opinion is apparently seconded by Bryan Rigg in his book.I was not there and don't know who was right.As in many cases maybe everybody had a tayna.I also don't understand what would be so terrible if Chabad had decided to join the Mir till after the war.Would it be terrible to be under R'Chatzkel Levinshteyn or R'Chaim Shmulevitz?.
Also no mention of Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin, which had a similar amount of boys to the Lubavitcher, about 26.
As someone who tries to respect all, with a touch of cyniscm,I''ll be able to sleep tonight.I can tell you though, that when I read the story about a certain Library, in the early stages of the Warsaw bombing, that a certain group in America put in unbelievable amounts of political will and money to save, while Jews burned in Warsaw....well, it was just a very uncomfortable feeling.Now, maybe it's not true, though I've seen documentation by Rachel Altein in her book, Out Of The Inferno The Efforts that Led to the Rescue of Rabbi Yosef Y. Schneersohn .

Anonymous said...

It is really unbeliavable. The group that hails itself as the hallmark of ahavat yisrael spreading suchh hate and divisivenes that is beyond beleif. And he chose this on "holocaust day"! And it has become a trasure for all lubavitch bloggers (COl, Shturem and this) to spread hate with this article and their comments.

It is not worthwhile to enter in a discussion with such people who after 65 years still want to perpetuate old discussions, things that may have lots of shades of grey.

Just a few questions and remarks:

a) Why is the letter not signed?
b) Why is there is no letter during the hardship eriods itself (43-45-)?
c) Why do some lubavitchers (before the onset of these hateful blogs) have empathy towards R' Chayim S and this letter donveys the opposite?
d) Why is there is total silence from the Previous Rebbe after around 42-43 and moreover he writes that they should not talk about it!
e) If it was so bad at ALL times (from43- throughout 46) why haven't the Lubavitcher leaders at Brooklyn sent them the minumum of funds to help them?
f) If there was a DIN Torah over the matter, it is logical to think that there were two sides to this issue. Even if Lubavitchers came out victorious in this Din Torah, there was a Din Torah where the other made some claims. Why does it occur to all Lubavitcher Blogs (COL, Shturem and this one) that the "llevad mechabad" is NOT because Chabad are not Bney Torah, but maybe they claimed (perhaps and probably wrongly) that Chabad HAD ANOTHER FUND for the boys?

Why do you all conclude that "levad mechabad" is for the old hatred of chabad? Why can't there be a bit of lekaf zchuss that you are so wont to demand by anyone who dares criticize you? Because you are imbedded with hate from your mothers milk at those jews who feel that they have hteir own derech that does not entail singing your praises to high heavens.

Why do you think that in practice in the yeshivos at shanchay there was so much coexistence between the boys of chabad and the mirrer boys, that deseves their warm sholom alechem when they meet today, if they were inimical to each other at that time as you portray? Isn't it because in fact their rosh yeshivot instilled in their pupils to get along and be warm towards chabad? So how can you turn around and spew so much hatred?

As I began, there is no room to cinvince the haters; but the people in the middle of the road just take a look at what is happening. When Rubashkin is/was introuble, no one other than Lipshuts at the Yated involved himself to defend him? Maybe it is time that you all reflect and act in kind so that maybe it will bring more zechussim for the Rubashkkin family and they will be realsed from their troubles!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

a) why should it be signed? it's stamped in the name of the Talmidim.

b) who said there's no letter? a researcher found this from the end of '45, maybe there are more!

c) They knew Reb Chaim and respected him, because he deserved that respect. Anybody that knew him can vouch for that. They also know that he had no great love for Kalmanovich either!!!

d) I don't claim to know why the Rebbe does or doesn't say something

e) Obviously they did send them funds. Look at the pictures, they look decent, no?

f) The letter says that Reb Chaim said that they're not included in the category of Bnei Torah!

It's NOT old hatred for Chabad, it's NEW hatred!!!! That's my point!!! Old hatred was long, long gone by then.

I don't spew hatred, I'm educating and clarifying.

.....למען ידעו

yankee raichik said...

Benny said...
Yankee Raichik,
I have not yet read the whole thread, but can confirm that the story you write....BUT,
I don't know what you are trying to say?Obviously the decision not to take the visas was what they believed was right at the time

Thanks, that's is the point. This issue should be left buried where it was. The lubabs wanted to go to a din torah after the war and were told not to by the FR's people. The problem is the artscroll books that write total B. about what happened before, during and after the war and today they are accepted as Torah m'Sinai. Just look at the kneejerk comments flying on this blog. Don't we see how the bochurim took the high road after the war? I just hope no one releases anymore of these documents because you ain't seen nothing yet.

BTW, I wrote my name knowing I'm going to get flack from every side. If someone has something to say about this, let's have an open discussion without anonymity.

Ovadia said...

Tzig

They didn't respect R' Kalmanovitz way before the war. He became R'Y because he was a good fundraiser, everyone knows that. The pruhber was on a money mission, not a shiur.Anyways, R'Ahron disagreed with him on a lot of things

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

MAL

you have a very vile mouth.

Tsk, Tsk.

Ovadia said...

It was an understatement. Ahzus is the least of your problems, even though it is a siman, like they say, of where they well send you after der greyseh din v'cheshbon. Teshuvas Hamishkal
Build bridges or what ever the gemara says
but tshuva is what you have to do. I still hope you have bechirah on that; gevureners have difficulty undergoing great changes at later stages. Mir Darf mispallel zayn

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

Who had a Hebrew typewriter in Shanghai’s? And it obviously WASN’T a life threatening event, or they would have joined the Mir. And didn’t Mark Riggs have something about the Freidiker Rebbe running around USA denouncing Va’ad of Hatzolah?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Twisty

They could print שב שמעתתא'ס but they didn't have a typewriter?!

So, a man with a debilitating illness, confined to a wheelchair RAN AROUND THE USA condemning the Vaad?!

yankee raichik said...

Tzig,
Plz remove this entire discussion about shanghai from this blog. It is bringing out the worst in everyone, and the Rebbe always looked for the good in klal yisroel. Enough of this, we're all beginning to sound like the reform and conservative who every year at this season write about how the frummies didn't leave, rabbonim saved themselves, VH cared only for yeshiva guys, RMBW sabotaged kastner ym"sh, etc.

Enough is enough. This sounds like a fellow LA boy, but "can't we all just get along?" (OK I'm quoting a drugged up bum rodney king, but he was right).

I'll end with a positive story. At one meeting of the AARTS program, the discussion went to the issue of how to deal with goverment requirements for limmudei chol, college credits, etc. The Rashag stated his opinion. RAK asked him is this your opinion or your BIL's. The Rashag started mekking and bekking and avoided answering. RAK pressed him again and again. Finally he said the shvogger halt azoi. RAK said if so I agree. When it came to chinuch and college, they were on the same page.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Remove a thread with 109 plus comments? surely you jest, Yankee!

But that's a nice story.

Of course the snags here will deny it.

Mottel said...

Yankee unfortunately these things stay around forever . . . both for the good and the bad.

Barry said...

"They could print שב שמעתתא'ס but they didn't have a typewriter?!"

Der Teyreh iz given der uhtemen bay zey. There still was a dearth of ketzosim and there were time allotments who gets to used the Kitzos.

yankee raichik said...

Mottel said...
Yankee unfortunately these things stay around forever . . . both for the good and the bad.

And today on the day the Rebbe said 18 yrs ago "Tut altz vos ir ken tzu arop breingin moshiach bepoel mamosh" it definitely won't help the cause of bringing moshiach.

Hirshel, don't be so cynical. You never know. Most of them claim the hate starts with us. Let's see

daloy idiots said...

Am I the only one who refuses to tie myself up in knots over an anonymous letter almost 65 years old?
Are we going to rehash wars from 200 hundred years ago,also?
Does anyone here know the details to decide which side was right and which was not?

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"Twisty

They could print שב שמעתתא'ס but they didn't have a typewriter?!

So, a man with a debilitating illness, confined to a wheelchair RAN AROUND THE USA condemning the Vaad?!"

I just spoke to a printer, who confirmed that in the old days of typsetting, it was relativly easy for a printer to manufacture new fonts. And if it was an offset reproduction, all you need is one copy. But who shleped a hebrew typewritter to Sangchai? They didn't exactly come with tons of stuff.

'Running around' was figurative. According to Frank Riggs, the FR was openedly anti the vaad Hatzolah.

And why did you cut off this part of my post "? BTW, I am friendly with Chanowitz’s family. He is certainly not an ‘Anti Snag’ etc because of this. He is also friendly with the Kotler family. Hm…."

Maybe A Litvak said...

OK. I give up. My Russian analogies and Napolean stories are not getting in.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Twisty

it's Bryan Mark Rigg, not Frank Riggs

MAL

I'd love to but they poshut have mamesh no shaychus to the inyan that we're tooing adurch here....

But please, don't give up!!!

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig

I might give up. I am no Russian

ANON 1 said...

Yanky Raichik is right. WADR, Tzig, your argument is the same as that character Eilich (or whatever his name is) when he published the notorious "Hagaon" (which the Tzanser Rebbe had publicly burned with bi'ur chomets, and all the other condemnations etc.).

The Lubavitch Rebbe zy"a strongly opposed and objected to the rehashing of old machlokes (as in days of Besht and Maggid), saying - especially as it involves people who are already in olam ho'emes where they know the truth - and this only causes pain etc. to their neshomos!

Thus in effect you are violating the Rebbe's clear instructions!

As for Rigg's book: his negative comments about the Reyatz are all taken from, and based on, interviews with partisan opponents of Chabad (the archivist of Agudah, followers of RAK and his Vaad Hatzoloh etc.). I had a long discussion with Riggs in which i pointed out to him blatant errors and false accusations, and showing that the info he got was taken from partisan sources. He understood even agreed to my evidence, but said it was too late to change anything and he wished he had spoken to me much earlier (this was right before publication when he had sent me a pre-publ. copy asking for a blurb, and I explained why I couldn't give it to him).

Let's get back to YR's comment and just request and act upon it!

MAL said...

anon Hashleyeshey
Why did Riggs show you the book?

Anon3 said...

"MAL said...
anon Hashleyeshey
Why did Riggs show you the book?"
You really must have a boich veitig.Either you can't read or whatever.I am not anon1 nor any of the others you seem to think I am and Riggs never showed me his book.I read it on my own.
One question off topic.Vi kumpt iss that a individual that comes from Lodzher stock can be such a kalt bluteker misnagid?

yankee raichik said...

Thanks anon1,
About 20 yrs ago, shimmy deitsch got hold of some of these papers. He wrote an article to print in Kfar Chabad magazine. He got an answer from the Rebbe as follows:
"Inyonoi shel Chabad hu l'hoisif b'ahavas yisroel v'loi hefuchoi".

Hirshel, u should never have printed the first letter (and it is authentic, my father had a copy) and please don't print any more that u come across. It will accomplish nothing.

Anonymous said...

בס"ד
שכולם יתברכו ממקור הברכות.
יש לנו רעה חולה כמעט בכל העיתונות החרדית -המשתייכת לחוגים ספציפיים. להביא מעשים וסיפורים על החוג האחר או על אנשים מסוימים מהחוג או העדה האחרת ללא בקשת תגובה וללא כל נתינת יכולת לאדם האחר לומר מה קרה בדיוק-לדעתו.
ואולי בדבר זה יש לנו ללמוד מאנשים היותר רחוקים שלכה"פ נותנים זכות תגובה.
אם זה לא לשון הרע מהו בדיוק לשון הרע? הרי מי שמכה רעהו בסתר איננו ברוך מפי הגבורה ר"ל ודרשו חז"ל שזהו על מספרי לשון הרע.
ואם מדובר על אדם חי שעוד יכול לומר את דברו במקום אחר, מה נאמר על אדם שאיננו חי ?
נכון , מדאורייתא אין איסור לה"ר על המתים זהו חרם הקדמונים (שגם זה חמור דיו) אבל על תלמידי חכמים לכו"ע יש גם על מי שלא חי .
וכאן אני שואל שאלה נוראה, האם אי פעם נתנו לגדול ראשי הישיבות בתקופה ההיא זכות תגובה? האם שאלוהו או את מי שהיה בעניין מה בדיוק קרה שם?
הרי הטענה היא באמת נוראה ואיומה שבחורים צעירים פליטי חרב עשקו את האוכל מפיהם, ואם היו שואלים את ה"נאשם" וייתכן שבפיו היו הסברים נכונים או הכחשה -אפילו חלקית- שאז כל התמונה הייתה משתנית הרי אין הוצאת שם רע גדול מזה על תלמיד חכם.
לכן עם כל הכבוד לכותבים ולמגיבים ולכל בעלי ההלם זכרו שדנים אתם את אותם אנשים שלא בפניהם ולא בפני הדיין אלא על פי התובע בלבד.
..ונזכה לראות מעלת חברינו ולא את חסרונו. חלילה...

עושה מעשה זמרי ומבקש שכר כפנחס said...

Mayn libeh Tzig,

I liked the above quote from you!
Let me explain, please,k?
Nobody posting here knows the truth.We have an allegation ,anonymous actually, and we cannot ask the tsad shekeneged what their reasons were, if the allegations are true. THE ONE thing I do know is that you are not WEEPING!You are jumping for joy!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Somebody here tried to shlog op the AARTS story Reitchik told by saying that it was started in 1971, after RAK's passing. I would assume he meant Reb Schneur, so the story still stands.

Friendly anonymous said...

This is only a "kabolas eidus sheloy bifnei ba'al din", not the din torah itself.

Maybe A Litvak said...

anon 3
I apalogize for the confusion of identities

The truth is that the (ger & sokolov) Chasidic mehalecch left a whole dohr off the derech, rachmunleh litzlan, and a certain Litvak was mikarev, meaning hut gihalten zeyer nuhnt with my father and the rest is history.
When it came to shiduccim, my father had difficulty based on the fact that Chasidism didn't keep his parents in the fold. His Rebbe used to tell the shadcahnim, ehr iz meyn zuhn uhn ich bin zeyn yichos.

Agav, that Rosh Yeshiva was a Dayin in Vilna when he was in his low twenties. The way it worked that R; Chaim Oyzer trained in the new dayanim by giving them hard shaylas that afterwords he would put a shtemple on their teshuva. He got a hard shayla from the Gerrer Rebbe, worked on it for a day or two and sent it out (with R' Chayim Oyzer's Shtemple).
Mext time the Imrey Emes had a shaya, he sent it strait to R' Yisroel Zev. He wrote all types of accolades, including YUHSHISH. R' Yisroel Zev showed it R 'Chaim Ozer and said vayst ich oys ahz der Gerreer Rebbe hut niz keinf Ruch Hakodesh. (he thought he was an old man) To wthich he replied, nu, Yisroel Zev, vus hus du gehalten far dem....
I am sure you know that Ruch Hakaydesh of R' Chaim Ozer with the plants and the cave, where in middle of a walk in the forest a couple of years before the war, he spontaneously showed Rav Gusman certain trees and said this you could eat from, this one is poisonous. Also, he pointed to a cave and said that is a good hiding place. Rav Gusman didn't understand what he wanted, but during the war he escaped in that forest and ate those plants and hid in that cave. AH, deh Ruch Hakoeydesh of R' Chaim Oyzer

Anonymous said...

I am the one who shlugged up the Aarts story with the 1971 Cheshbon. No it doesnt still stand, if the story happened with R' Shneur as opposed to R' Ahron it is night and day (vamavin yavin. ask any old time lakewooder what i mean. unlike you, i am not going to besmirch anyone who is not on this olam to defend himself.)

Ovadia said...

Someone please enlighten the enlightened but uninformed. who is the Rashag?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

RaSHaG is Reb Shmaryahu Gurary, son in law of the Rebbe Rayatz N"E, and head of the Lubavitcher Yeshivos.

Anonymous said...

Who is this chanowitz

Anonymous said...

Efraim Zuroff's latest attack on the Charedim and the Holocaust

Moshe said...

Yankee Raichik,
Sir, can you explain how on the one side you quote your dad blaming R'Kalmanovitz for the death of Chanowitz (who, just to set the record straight, was a sickly bochur back in Vilna and succumbed to disease just like a few Mirrer boys and quite a number of other refugees did)and on the other side "don't want to cause היפך אהבת ישראל". Here you are a terrible rumor monger libeling a yid with mesiras nefesh and than you put on your זיידענע זופיצע and bawl about how we can't all get along?
If I was a member of the K family I'd sue you

Ovadia said...

The Kalmanovitzhes just filed a libel suit against Raichik and Tzig, since the defamatory slander was publicised on this blog. I hope you guys have insurance

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Tzig's lawyer just filed a wrongful death suit on behalf on the Chanowitz's....

I know the K family has plenty of cash.

anon3 said...

"I know the K family has plenty of cash."
How do you know?

Ovadia said...

Tzig
you can't file a wrongful death suit on behalf of someone else and not on a dead person either. Besides, there lacks proximate cause

sammy d said...

if the fr would have allowed the tmimim from japan to file a din torah against vaad hatzola he would not have come out smelling like a rose...
besides, a beis din that they all would have agreed to go to never existed

deebjo said...

Yankel Rosenbaums family just sued the estate of a prominent rabbi.His entourage caused an accident that caused a riot ....
About the same logic Yankee Raichik is espousing.
*think before you post*

anon3 said...

"anon3 said...
"I know the K family has plenty of cash."
How do you know?"
Should I feel honored that someone is posting in my name?It's not me.

Anonymous said...

The chanowitz family has the greatest respect for the mirers.IHave seen rav chanowitz shlita who learned in shanghai. Meeting some of the mirer rosh yeshivas in america and the simcha was like the reunion of two lost brothers such moredike ahava.

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Please reveal the Kapishnitzer/ Burshtiner document Who is the source its an amazing piece of history.

Anonymous said...

I heard a rumor that on Chanovitz tomb is engraved Hashem Yinokem Domi...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

"The chanowitz family has the greatest respect for the mirers.I Have seen rav chanowitz shlita who learned in shanghai. Meeting some of the mirer rosh yeshivas in america and the simcha was like the reunion of two lost brothers such moredike ahava."

He was also close to the Kotler family, Richelle especially!!!

Maybe A Litvak said...

Twistelton-Twistelton said...
"The chanowitz family has the greatest respect for the mirers.I Have seen rav chanowitz shlita who learned in shanghai. Meeting some of the mirer rosh yeshivas in america and the simcha was like the reunion of two lost brothers such moredike ahava."

'He was also close to the Kotler family, Richelle especially!!!'

Tzig and his 'Bob cohorts want to besmirch der Gaon Hador becasue they can't fargin that the Gaon Hador was a Litwak. Implicating R' Kalmanovitz is worthe very little, unless they can tenuosly link it to the Gaon Hador. Therefore, despite the lack of evidence, they continually associate the Gaon Hador with this.
Interesting that it came shortly after two consecutvie nisht-farginin posts. V'Dal

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I am the one who shlugged up the Aarts story with the 1971 Cheshbon. No it doesnt still stand, if the story happened with R' Shneur as opposed to R' Ahron it is night and day (vamavin yavin. ask any old time lakewooder what i mean. unlike you, i am not going to besmirch anyone who is not on this olam to defend himself.)

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:05:00 PM

Raichik got the right story with the wrong issue. Sometime after the war (probably in the 50's), the germans were offering "gut machen" money for the european yeshivas that suffered and got uprooted during the war. This was a complicated and lenghly process and the yeshivas worked together for this. Reb Aharon Kotler, Reb Shmaryahu Gurary and other Rosh Yeshivas used to meet quietly to present a united system for this. This idea of taking money from Germany was very controversial, and the Lakewood RY was aware that Gurary was consulting with his BIL, the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Therefore, at these meetings, he would press Gurary for the LR's opinion and pushed the other RY's to agree with the LR. I heard this story from a person who was there and he said that it was amazing the respect Reb Aharon Kotler gave to the LR publicly in front of other RY's.

yankee raichik said...

Moshe @ 2:04:00 PM
has some valid complaints. When I first posted, I was unaware of what the Rebbe wrote to SD about AY, see my post Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:42:00 PM

If I had known, I would never have written it, and I deeply regret it since it goes against a clearly stated opinion of the Rebbe. As such, this is my last post about this issue and let's find something better to argue about, like is it right for people to come around collecting money to buy apartments for their kids getting married in EY and asking from people who are renting themselves (happens to me every day in shul)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Now, THAT'S a shocker!

Can we get the rebuttals now from all the haters saying how it's a Lubavitcher fabrication?

One at a time, please.

Ovadia said...

'Bob hypocrits. If he defamed The Rebbey, he is no good. If he gave him respect (which he didn't) he is also no good

Anonymous said...

Hershel dont get yourself involved.The fact of the matter is that the rayatz when he came to america didnt focus on hatzoloh but on rebuilding chabad.This is documented in any reveiw of hatzla related documents.In the 40s they had no clue who was left in europe till hakados r michoel ber got out the information.The fact is the vaad hatzolos chiyuv was to take care of their talmidim the same way that tomcei temim took care of there mosdos.The chavershaft and love felt between the mirrer r yakkov busel a litvak married to sorotzKins father a alte mirrer married r askenazi a lubavitcher is just another proof of the freindship the alte lubavitch community with the mirrers

Maybe A Litvak said...

The truth probably was that the Gaon Hador was aware that the efficacy of the proposed plan was contingent on unanimous consent and lack of public disclosure due to the sensitive nature of the subject matter. If a certain powerfull and influential person would have objected to the proposal, there would have been disasterous effects; the plan would be dismantled and there would be a lot of bad publicity that would hinder future fundraising efforts of the nacent community that had a small base of donors, many of them not overly enthusiastic and any slight pretext would cause a diversion of resources to other places.
Hence, it was imperative that the Rebbe of Chabad, trully consented to the proposition and the Gaon Hador wanted to ensure the acquiesence of the Rebbe.
Due to the nature of the involved parties - different personalities, cultures, worldviews and possibly past negative interactions- the Gaon Hador understood that it was imperative that the Chabad aproval be explicit, clear and unequivical. This would abdicate any future rescindmint on the part of Chabad

To quote the late Paul Harvey: 'And Now you know, the rest of the story'
BTW, of course, the Gaon Hador was thinking in learning throughout the proceedings, as he was kol kuloy shakuah bahteyreh. It was not uncommon for people who escorted him from a meeting, to hear him say to himself, 'yetz R' Akiva Eiger's kashya iz miyushiv'.

twistelton-twistelton said...

“Actually, in all lies there are kernels of truth, the truth here is there was unfortunately a Lubavitcher boy who died, not out of starvation of course.His name was Chanowitz he has a brother in Crown Heights.He was a sickly bochur back in Europe and succumbed to disease in Shanghai, where disease was rampant and a number of the Mirrer were also niftar.”

Agav, Chanowitz mover to Boro Park around ten years ago, (when the crazies in CH got to him). I only mention this to show that I DO KNOW his family, and know of what I am talking when I say he is good with the Kotlers

Anonymous said...

Anon
The Rayatz all his life worked on every front possible chabad and non chabad,he worked for the hatzala of the Belzer Rov did he plan to make him a Tomim, you are a idiot

Maybe A Litvak said...

Tzig

what happened to my geaynes? How come it wasn't preserved for prosperity? Did you imagine snagism between the lines; none was intended.

MAL said...

Tzig, your midos are living testimonial about the kashrus of the mikvas in Chabad

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

You forget my parents aren't Chabad....

So let me guess: You're up late shteiging away and took a little break to check the blog?

Maybe A Litvak said...

ich bet mechilah fuhn eych. Du zuhl lang laben ahl piy derech Hateyeh uhn due zul zayche zayn tzu veren a baal teshuva, kimloh mivon dimila

The Bashefer should remove that seygim and let the kedusha lying inside you to be yotzeh maychoach el hapoel and always remeber that yidiyas hachete is the first step. Don't answer me, but on the small percentage that you are oyver rechilur or Loshan Harah lishituschuh, do you think it will be worth it l'acher meah v'esrem? Is is the gamble worth it?

Maybe a Litvak said...

Actually, I have a deadline and I was also wondering why you were up so late.
edited

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Deadline for what?
I took a 4 hour nap and woke up with heartburn from all your comments...

MAK said...

Take Tums
You guys get to reyzichup after the fifteenth. Not everyone is that lucky

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I wasn't aware that "reyzichup" was one word these days. Good thing I'm a linguist and can figure out what you're saying in Lakewoodese....

Anonymous said...

MAL
I saw lately in Reb Moshe Blau's kesovim that a lot of mikvahs in the Holy Lita were neglected and not Kosher. I hope your folks used the 10% kosher ones.
FYI Blau was a litvak of yerusaliem

Maybe A Litvak said...

MAL
I saw lately in Reb Moshe Blau's kesovim that a lot of mikvahs in the Holy Lita were neglected and not Kosher. I hope your folks used the 10% kosher ones.
FYI Blau was a litvak of yerusaliem

He was referring to the mens' mikves

Kindly state your name.
Anyways, I have no Litvishe blood in me, nice try.

anon18 said...

Blau was of Hungarian origins.Please don't spread baseless lies about mikvo'os, 'Bobs were all up in arms when some people said something about their mikvo'os.Do unto thers as you want done to yourself

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon18

the source that Mikvaos were no good was not Lubavitch, so please.

Anonymous said...

Tzig, can you maybe make a rating system for the comments - It's such a pain to sift through so many dumb comments till you get to someone saying something worth reading.
And Yankee Raichik is a great Jew.