Tuesday, April 28, 2009

Runaway Titles....

Seems like "Maybe a Litvak" was on to something here. What we see on our screens is a copy of the famous - or infamous - שב שמעתתא printed by the VH in Munich in 1947. You might ask, "why infamous?" I guess because it was printed with VH funds that could have gone towards other things, like resettling Jews. Ok, strike that last sentence from the record. I'm not sure how many people were learning ShShm in Munich 1947, but I digress. Anyway, whether or not they were learning it in the DP camps pales in comparison to the dedication on the inside. Not only do they dub the Kletzker Rosh Yeshivah just as the author of the Sh Shm was called, i.e. "גאון הגאונים," But they also go as far as anointing him as the the נשיא ישראל and Captain of the Jewish nation way back in 1947! Very telling words, indeed, especially since we still had the CI, the BR and many, many others at that time, despite the passing of RCE, RBB, RSS and REW. To go out on a limb and name him like they do is very telling indeed, despite the bias of the VH, publishers of the sefer.

Truth be told Chabad also printed seforim for the pleytim in Germany after WW2, so attacking the VH may be unfair. After all, people that are there for several years need seforim and other Tashmishei Kedusha. But we CAN discuss the Hakdosheh, right? Do we think that the opinions expressed therein represent those of the majority of Jews at that time? After all, if he's to be called by that name then wouldn't he need to be the accepted leader of at least all frum Jews? That's the kind of complaint we often hear from Chabad's adversaries when Lubavitch dares to refer to the Rebbe as Nesi Doreinu or such. We can agree on RAK's genius, and we can even agree that he was a genius amongst geniuses, but isn't the title here a little bit of a stretch in 1947? Can we agree then that others are just as guilty of such "offenses," but since they're at the helm that they get away with it? This looks to me sort of like a KeHoT sefer writing that on the Rebbe, wouldn't you say?


zalman said...

ich farshtei nisht.

lubavitsh olso printed there books of chasidus?

schneur said...

Its lashon melizah.
Among the books Lubavitch published was an edition of Pokaech Ivrim by the Mitteler rebbe in Shanghai after the War, an interesting choice ..

Maybe A Litvak said...

Regarding the other Gadeylim: in many respects, the Gaon Hador was much more of a leader and much more active, or proactive, than they were; hatzuluh, hakumus yeshiva/kollelim, etc (He did a lot of travelling, ran a yeshiva, spoke publically- unlike the others mentioned)

He obviously completely transformed American Jewry and introduced many 'oldworld' concpets that were hitherto unkown on these soils. The ripple affects were enrmous and the effects even reached Eretz Yisroel; to what degree is debatable.

yoshe kalb said...

I happen to have quite a lot of seforim in my posession that were printed by and for the she'eris hapleitoh in Germany ( mostly in Munich and Foehrenwald )right after the churban. Kehos printed there Tanya, Likkute Torah, Torah Or, Ateres Rosh and the AR's Shulchan Aruch. There was indeed a relatively big contingent of "Litvakes" ( not Litvishe! )that hailed mainly from Vilna, Kovno and Riga. As one of the first children born after the churban I remember at least two of my early melamdim as being Litvakes,so the ShShm may have been studied by a number of lomdim.
The Chabad seforim were probably, but not exclusevely, meant for the Lubavitchers that arrived right after the war and were concentrated mainly in Pocking.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


were you born in a DP camp?

schneur said...

Yoshe kalb . What is the distinction between Litvishe and Litvakes, I am curious whta you are attempting to imply/

Maybe A Litvak said...

Obviously, as a collective group, those that needed Shmaytzeh for their survival, considered the Gaon Hador to be their leader.

Counter: same people reading the Lubavitch seforim. They considered their leader to be the...

When an objective observer looks at the aggregate and the totality of the circumstances, the distinction between the two is obvious. The other accolades shed light on the intentions of the previous ones. 'mayseh achas megaleh ahl chavertuh'. v'dal

Maybe A Litvak said...

The great R' Chaim Shtutziner, on the boat ride to (or from) Shangchay, famously utilized the time for learning shmaytza. Someone asked him 'vuh halt min' referring to their location at sea, to which he replied 'shmaytza daled..'

Maybe A Litvak said...

to help the downtrodden
whom many have forgotten

azah shayneh mayseh
procurment of a shmyaytza
kindle the rischa dorasya

vehn a yid sitz uhn learnt
uhn zayz hartz vert farbrent

uhn ehr bartracht in dem
in der Dvar Hashem

mir darft nisht gleiben
az ehr iz geven der gieyn hageynem

der vus hut zoch geven
tzu zhen der gantza bren

vee ehr hut gezugt Teyre mit a teeferh havunuh
bechinah fuhn aish shecaeyreh al gaby livunuh

a member of the Bund
didn't know a kutzo shel yud

saw a 'mareh' that was awseome
a shiur that was thundersom'

was brought to tears
over all those lost years

a shud af dey tzeyt
and with all of his might
learnt through the night

when the night was gone
his neshamah moved on
and he was gone

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


great yet atrocious at the same tme

You need to have me look at it and correct the awful spelling

MAL said...

it's too late to fix it?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it's never too late, my friend

Anonymous said...

Once a sickening Lubo, always a sickening Lubo. The way you write about Rav Aharon is sick! All you guys know is how to get drunk! Get a life and get sober for once.

Anonymous said...

rav aaron was given the floor to adress knessiah gedolas before the war, he was in the front row of leadership amongst gedolim twice and more his age...

anon3 said...

"Once a sickening Lubo, always a sickening Lubo. The way you write about Rav Aharon is sick! All you guys know is how to get drunk! Get a life and get sober for once."
Well since we're"always drunk" we certainly can't be held responsible for what we say.On the other hand what haters like you say about the Rebbe nichtereheit (sober) raises the question, whats your excuse?

yoshe kalb said...

no, I was not born in a DP camp. I have to correct myself. I meant to say that I belong to that group of children who were the first generation to be born after the churban. The last DP camp to be disbanded was Foehrenwald in 1956 or 57. I was born sometimes later. My closer surroundings, nevertheless, consisted of almost 100% DPs.
IMHO there exists a difference between Litvakes as an ethnic subgroup and Litvishe as an ideology, similiar to the difference between "Oylamshe" and "Misnagdim" .
The Litvakes of my childhood and early youth were very hartzige people, many of them well educated former students of the "Yavneh" or "Tachkemoini" school network or the famous local yeshivos and many of them with razorblade sharp minds,but not necessarily very strict in their observance.They also spoke their distinct Yiddish ( no Shin, but Sin )and retained their culinary peculiarities ( no serious threat to any self respecting Hungarian ).

UmMegalch said...

yoshe kalb

By any chance, do you know of the name of the city and hopital, near Munich, which had a maternity ward for many yidishe mamas?

Anonymous said...

אז מען רעדט פון דער גאון הגאונים הגאון הרב אהרן קאלער זצ"ל וויל איך אין דער עפעטליכקייט פרעגן איין קשיא, ווי קומט דאס אז די ליטאים האבן צוגעלאזט אז דער גאון הגאונים זאל ביז זיין לעצטן טאג וואוינען אין א פארכמארעטע איינפאכע אפארטמענט בילדונג אין בארא פארק אויף דער דרוטע שאטק, צווישן גויים מיטן הינט. ווי איז דער "כבוד התורה"? פארוואס זאל מען ביי די ליטוישע נישט צושטעלן אביסל עולם הזה פאר די גדולים אזוי ווי ביי די חסידים?

Maybe A Litvak said...


Your questions belies of a great culturul and idelogical divide.

The Gaon Hador insisted on only taking a minimal salary and was mikayem soyneh matonos yichyeh and histapkus b'muhit.

Obviously, his personal needs in this world were minimal. Hi Rebetzin, A'H, would occasionally place some maychel in his frock before he left the house in the
morning. Her rational was that uhlay uhlay he will notice that it was there and then u'u he will check it out and u'u he will eat it.
There are mayses that when he spoke in learning while he was eating and after the meal he was unaware that he ate. That was a shulchun that was doymeh to the mizbayach and on such people you can be have a bechinah of hakruvas bikurim when you give them a matunuh.
What were the eating habits of the Rebbes that you try to emulate?

Anonymous said...

דו דערמאנסט מיר פון דעם ליטוואק וואס האט אוועקגעלייגט א אביון אויף פורים...

schneur said...

As a Litvishe Yid myself (both parents) we rarely used the term Litvak , that seens to be a term used by other Jews not by ourselves.
But I hear what you are saying. I prefer to use Litvishe to describe the genetic Lithuanian(White Russian Jew) and yeshivishe to describe todays political party who mostly stem from parts west of lita like Germany Hungary and the land of baale teshuva.

יהודי said...

What do you mean by the land of baalei tshuva? My family shtams from baalei tshuva on both sides yet we consider ourselves litvish (white Russian) after where our last frum ancestors came from

Maybe A Litvak said...

anon: Litvaks say that joke regarding Briskers
(evyon is much more destitute than an uhny)

yoshe kalb said...

UmMegalch, maybe St. Ottilien ? It was a Jewish hospital from April 1945 untol 1948.

Anonymous said...

I heard from someone that after the war Rabbi Michoel Ber Weissmandel (who with gisi fleischman a major zionist figure helped rescue jews) wanted to go to lakewood to confront reb aaron kotler and to physically hurt him. He was persuaded not to go.

His contention was that reb aaron opted to print a new shas for the refugees in shangahi rather then saving jews from the death machine in europe.

Rabbi Weissmandel called it the "Blood Shas" and because of this despised reb aaron kotler for the rest of his life.

Would anyone know anything more about this ?

Mamzer Talmid Chochom said...

Providing gemaras for the Mirrer yeshiva, on its own, is analagous to collecting funds for yeshivas in America.
If those funds came from VH, the question of propriety with regards to funds intended elsewher, would be raised. Relevant to the discussion

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...


please don't waste your time writing. Your comments won't get in unless you start writing like a normal person.

dovy said...

To Anon 2:43
I heard from Malkiel that R' Michoel Ber came after the war to confront Rav Aharon and brought a baseball bat(!) with him to physically attack Rav Aharon. When R' MB arrived, Rav Aharon was begining a shiur klali (possibly on Chardal, but I'm not sure if my memory serves me correct on that). After hearing the shiur RMB declared that he could not attack someone who was such an ohev Torah (you could see the exertion and love of TorAH OF rAV aHARON'S FROM WATCHING HIM GIVE SHIUR) and who was capable of giving a shiur like that.
Sorry but this one was so long, boring and rambling that I was unable to read it, but judging from your recent shift to overt anti-Litvakism, I can guess what you probably wrote.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what was so rambling? it was only 2 paragraphs!!

Anonymous said...

Meeday chafzi:

There must be a cheelook made between what was printed during the war after. 2) Lub. and misnagdim did both.

Y"T Sheini

schneur said...

The Satmarer paper reported that when Reb Michoel Ber asked for a shaas during a shiur after World war 2 ,a bachur handed him that shaas , he reportedly threw it away saying that dos is a blutige shaas.

Twistelton-Twistelton said...

אז מען רעדט פון דער גאון הגאונים הגאון הרב אהרן קאלער זצ"ל וויל איך אין דער עפעטליכקייט פרעגן איין קשיא, ווי קומט דאס אז די ליטאים האבן צוגעלאזט אז דער גאון הגאונים זאל ביז זיין לעצטן טאג וואוינען אין א פארכמארעטע איינפאכע אפארטמענט בילדונג אין בארא פארק אויף דער דרוטע שאטק, צווישן גויים מיטן הינט. ווי איז דער "כבוד התורה"? פארוואס זאל מען ביי די ליטוישע נישט צושטעלן אביסל עולם הזה פאר די גדולים אזוי ווי ביי די חסידים?
Reminds me of a question a Chasidesher Rosh Hakohol asked me (tong in check). Why is that the Rebbes who of course don’t want any luxuries are forced into it by the Chassidim, and the Rosh Yeshiva’s who don’t want any luxuries aren’t forced into it?