Sunday, April 12, 2009

Is this what Torah wants?

Yuntev has its advantages. Yes, there's the vicious cycle of eating, drinking and sleeping, and maybe some learning and davening thrown in for good measure, but it's a strain. Yet, you get to meet family and friends. that you may not have seen since last Yuntev. Many of those friends are readers of the blog and have lots to say about it and how its being conducted. They especially want the comments section to be cleaned up. "No more pointless comments that just repeat you hate, Rebbe hates, you goy, etc." You may spend hours catching up with those friends, and you may get to hear about meeting they've had with old schoolmates and friends. How despite all those years the friends have just grown to be so much more full of themselves. Yes, we're biased, but so would you once you hear the contrast in two situations. You can also help me decide whether the whole "Torah-learning" Keveyochol is worth a hill of beans.

Friend from out of town meets me and tells me his story. Picture this: He meets an old schoolmate on the 2nd day Yontev. After Mincha they stand outside shul and catch up on years of missed contact. Old schoolmate tells him how he's continued a life of complete devotion to Torah even after close to a decade of marriage and several kids. Old Schoolmate tells FFOOT that just like he was from the very best in Yeshivah, as OSM surely remembers, so too now. Now he lives - where else? - in Lakewood and has a modest brand new 5 bedroom house adorned by two cars for him and the missus. After all, getting to and from BMG every day can be cumbersome, and a late model Japanese import is needed for that daunting task. Being that the missus b"h need not work there's no need for a live in cleaning lady, only a 6 day a week four hour a day variety.... You get the picture: rich kid marries rich girl, gets everything he needs, PLUS gets to think that he's a Ben Torah, since he goes to BMG every morning... But, wait! there's more. FFOOT tells OSM that he won't settle for anything but the best when it comes to schools for his little ones. Only the absolute best. And he uses every contact and connection he has to basically take the place of some kid from a good family who doesn't have those connections.

Now, contrast that with OSM's relation who has the following situation: He has a sick oldest child, r"l. They had to leave Eretz Yisroel, where the husband was Hurreving in Torah, so that the child could get proper care here in the States. Not to be outdone, he continues to sit and learn here mitoch dachkus, living in a two bedroom Apartment with six kids. To say that they have ample food on the table is an overstatement. They get hand-me-downs from other hand-me-downs, third hand in other words. Cars are man dichar shmey, as are cleaning help and other amenities some of us are used to. So we have two families here, both supposedly "sitting and learning," and both supposedly "Kolel families." Bnei Torah, if you will. But we really don't. Living on someone else's dime, better than most people who work and try to be Kovea Itim, is no life of Torah. Especially if you sit there and patch zich in beichel. The clown is apparently "worried" that he may have to go work some time soon, for whatever reason, but he's not worried. He says he'll just go to law school and will find suitable employment soon after graduation. I guess in zechus of his "mesiras nefesh for Torah," right?


Friendly Anonymous said...

Jealosy is one of the aseres hadibroys. If my shver was rich, and my wife didn't mind a lazy husband, and I could live such a lifestyle without having a low self-image, you can be darn tootin' sure that I wouldn't be working all day.

As far as your question about the tzadik vetov lo and tzadik vera lo, chazal have spoken about this already.

Avi said...

My dear sir, I fail to see your point here. Avreich # 1 isn't doing anything he shouldn't be, on the contrary, he seems to be one with many options and could've gone to law school ten years ago, and chose to spend a couple of years hitting the books, "Ashrei Chelkoy" he isn't taking anything from me or you, and nor from "Avreich # 2 for that matter. Regarding Avreich # 2, poor man is down on his luck, and if you post his childs name I would be more than happy to say a kapital or two of Tehillim for him, however, I see no kesher whatsoever with the other guy's situation, please clarify what your point is, perhaps its my lack of inteligence, but I don't chap what ur problem is.

Anonymous said...

Hey Tzig, just a quick question, why pray tell does that second fellow have "six" kids and sitting and learning, if he's having a hard time, let him buy a darn T.V. and get a job. What he's doing isn't called "Mesiras Nefesh" its downright wrong, who and what gives him the right to put his wife and kids thru this misreble life for the sake of "his" Torah! Shame on him and his selfishness.

shimon s said...

"FFOOT tells OSM that he won't settle for anything but the best when it comes to schools for his little ones."

Should't it be "OSM tells FFOOT"?

Anonymous said...

aza nisht farginer

moshe ber said...

ממילא when u write "chol hameyed" I understand that u do it כדי to feel more "lubavitch" (as if ur 1 of the real russians .....) and to stamp out ur hungarian origins !!
but why the speeling mistake of "yontif" ?!

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

In my opinion sitting and learning on someone else's dime but your parents before marriage is wrong bichlal. And not just my opinion. יש לי על מי לסמוך

In my yeshiva days there were several sets of chavrusos who were married men older than most kollel guys dream of being while in kollel and they sat and learned (and still do) with hasmoda greater than any other pair in the beis medrash. Their secrets? They were retired businessmen and doctors.


ששת ימים תעבוד is nothing by you?! since when did it become aza seder to "sit and learn" just because your parents support you?

This guy is an obvious AmOretz who's Torah will have no kiyum. It's Bittul Torah for him to SIT AND LEARN!!!

yechiel said...

What is the point of this post?
Sorry,I just did not get it.
Also, if you want to be negative, please don't post third party stories, that you have "git baffered" with your own commentary.Also try not to use strange acronyms.

Anonymous said...

how stupid; dont you think there are poor people in lakewood learning mitoch dchak and rich kids in lubavitch? this is totally asinine and bitter.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Anon 9:23: He was talking about this particular story that he heard on yuntiff.

Alte mirrer: gut gezugt. The only heter I know of is kibud av if your father tells you to stay in beis medrash, though after marriage it could very well be he's telling you to be oiver issur.

Anonymous said...

נו נו, the בתי מדרשים are open for תלמידים that are not תוכו כברו. Maybe it's a מעלה maybe it's a חסרון, but it help you tzig, so why are you kvechting?

Maybe A Litvak said...

Don't be fooled by the appearances. A lot of people, possibly even him, feel stupid living off yenem.

I don't know his hasmada level, but zitzin uhn lehrnen iz mesiras nefesh. Reminds me of the old story with R' Yitzchok Elchonon (could have been anyone, for that matter)the baleh batim chepered him for sitting and learning and not working. He said, fine, let's switch places for a day. They couldn't handle it.
Farshteyzhuch ahleyn, for R' Yitzchok Elchonen, he had ahshrechuh bih oylem hazeh.
Criticize such a person only if you are holding by upheeten dey sidrey yeshiva. If you are not, then it smacks from Soney Hashem, chalila.
Toyrah lernen neccesitates an 'unstrengen zich.. dey gantza shisah uhn ramah' that should all be utilized for 'dveykes baTeyreh'. I don't know if the yungerman in question is near that level, I doubt it, but if he learns bihasmadah rabbah he will have an ohel in the next world that The Rebbe of Chabad will enviously gaze into and 'mir luzt ehm nisht arayn'.
(Obviously,only if he spends more time in learning then your Rebbe did)

Anonymous said...

c'mon, the rebbe was once apon a time a big masmid, unless of course you don't consider learning chasidus learning taireh.

Anonymous said...

There is such a thing as torah and gedulah bemokom echad so what is the problem. I have a feeling though he has more gedulah than torah. I used to look up to someone like the poor fellow, but my perspective has changed over the years. I think he should find a parnassah to support his family in his situation. Where did you get this picture of Rav Shmuel Miller shlita? This doesn't seem to be part of your circles.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

This here has no shaychus to neither Torah nor Gedulah.

As far as the pic: I googled something or other, I don't remember what now, and this is what I found. I can't be too choosy these days.

dovy said...

Tzig, this piece does not pas for you. you come off sounding whiny, bitter and spiteful.

A Messichist Apahluhjist said...

Just hope your boss doesn't read this post and think you are referring to someone he supports

BTW, it is Gedulah in the literal sense

LkwdGuy said...

Not sure I understand the point of this post. I left the Lakewood beis medrash after a few years when it became necessary for financial reasons. I have friends who still have not left after a decade in kollel, not because the are any shtarker then those that left but because the financial obligations never hit them yet for one reason or another. I fargin them their nice houses and shiny cars, the torah tells me to. I fargin them the menuchas hanefesh of sitting and learning without worrying about the next mortgage payment, the torah tells me to. Agav, for me, I find the couple of hours that I am able to put into learning now after a full days work has more of an effect on my life then the full days that I was spending in the bais medrash a few years ago. But I don't see how either mehalich is right or wrong. Is it his problem that someone is willing to pay his way? Kol hakovod as long as the goal is being marbeh kvod shomayim.

Gerald said...

Why are you so worried about a fellow who is lucky enough to have few financial worries?
Why are you NOT worried about the craziness going on in some quarters of Chabad?
I guess your "answer" is to find fault in others to deflect the ongoing madness taking place in Lubab.
Now to my question,if I may:Why is it that few people seem to be perturbed by the massive birthday parties made by a well known Jewish organization for a deceased person? It could be that the mainstream has simply written Lubavitch off when it comes to terms to being "normal".Basically viewing them as being schizoid, appreciating the good work they do, while realizing that the movement also incorporates a lot of madness.

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Gerald, this is the R' Meir vs. Rishbi thread not the Rav Schneersohn vs. Rav Shach. Wait for the next post.

gerald said...

Why has making birthday parties on a massive scale for a deceased individual got anything to do with Rabbi Schneerson vs Rabbi Schach?
Crazy is crazy.

Maybe A Litvak said...

I pick my brain
and play this game
attempt at a fame
might be lame

The censor is there
doesn't play fair
is he all there?
he does have fear

The truth stays out
so the 'Bobs can pout
and we can shout
till his throughts gets gout

The goat
stays afloat
by rote

Editing My comments

ChaimBerlinerAlumnus said...

'Basically viewing them as being schizoid, appreciating the good work they do, while realizing that the movement also incorporates a lot of madness.'

They are not two distinct issues; but two parts of the same topic (noysey). The good, by many of them, is also an expression of their insanity. V'dal

Zev Wolfson said...

He would do a lot more for the Klall if he would invest his enegeries in a proactive Kiruv environment where he can spread the light of Torah to the masses.

paid for by Zev Wolfson

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Gerald: I meant that the current topic of discussion is "kollel both in Lubavitch and elsewhere." As a pleasant and all too rare change the topic is not "various practices of Chabad Chassidim: open debate." If you hang around until tzig's next post you will have ample time to talk about brithday parties. Come to thing of it Hershel, why didn't you post anything for 11 Nissan?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

dunno why. maybe I was too busy...

Maybe A Litvak said...

'Come to thing of it Hershel, why didn't you post anything for 11 Nissan?'

They are carefull to have the pattey parade within a week of The Rebbeis birthday. Celeberation = dancing in the streets with banners, flags and booze

Maybe A Litvak said...

Never Working
Always Lurking

in the coffee rooms'
chapping a shmueze

Living the good life
on the money of his wife's

father he does live
But does he give?

of himself to the Klal
or act for his General

run to 4 kanfos ha'aretz
spread Torah via an ahm haaretz

or does he sit and eat
and twittle his feet

in his seat
what a feat!

He should be Mosyer Nefes
instead of learning Gefes

Give up one seder
an end up being greater

if he learns Chasidus
instead of Sfirey Minus


yoshe kalb said...

Is this what the Rebbe wants?
I spent Pessach in North Tel Aviv. This is an affluent neighborhood with approximately between 100.000 to 150.000 Yidden, mostly secular, if not outright anti-religious. The area is served by three shluchim. None of them was in attendance on Pessach, nor was there any replacement,which means NO distribution of Hand-Matzos, NO public ( Chabad )Sedorim and NO Seudas Moshiach. Is this what the Rebbe wants?

SatmarTC said...

The hardest thing to do is : sit and learn
I am jealous from the guy who does it, not b/c the,
2nd guy is selfish, he got signs that he has to go to work, unless his family is very happy

Modeh B'Miktsas said...

Tzig: fair nough
Satmar TC: make up your mind and stop contradicting yourself.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Reb Tzig,

This goes straight to the heart of the question of whether it is possible to be "vihiyisem kedoshim" without the prior "vehiskadishtem".