Monday, November 1, 2010

Learning or Working. What Some Rabbis say (Part I)

We've been discussing the matzav in the olam haYeshivos lately, and naturally that has led to some heated discussions here. Some of you have proposed going back to the old system, where only those who were suitable continued in Yeshivos after their Bar Mitzvah. Others decried the selective way that yeshivos accept or reject bochurim. And naturally the kolel way of life gets thrown in as well. The fact that the first letter comes from Reb Osher Stoliner (the first) is especially interesting, since most of Stolin today is kolel yungeleit - or stam Orimeleit who don't work for whatever reason. And I'm talking about American Stolin, not in Eretz Yisroel. That may have something to do with the fact that most of American Stolin is ex-Litvishe who learned in Stoliner Cheder as children and stayed there, becoming Stolin in America. I guess the only way to keep them in Stolin was to tell them that they could continue their Litvishe way of life, complete with Kolel 4ever. Everything else was a bonus - the geshmake davenen, etc. It was a win-win situation. back then there was no Tiferes Elimelech or "The Cheder;" if you wanted a frum cheder - but not Chassidish - Stolin may have been your only choice, which is a big reason for the growth of Stolin in America. The Yodei Dovor say that the חסר at the end of the letter is not really so, that the letter was too "sharf" to be printed, presumably because he knocks the lomdim who don't work. They also say that the חסר is "out there," and that I should to get my hands on it.

Click on the images to enlarge








108 comments:

Anonymous said...

couple of posts back someone commented that there is a article from Abish Schur in Kovetz Beis Aharon on this topic.

This letter seems to good to be true.

WanderingJew said...

Tzig!
The letter speaks for itself. There was no need to bring the modern day Stolin Inc. into Question.

Now you have opened a Pandora box where Lubavitch Inc will be compared to all the Letters the Alter Rebbe writes about Davening BeArichus, Tziyonus, Eating before Davening and all other earth revolving issues.

And of course the true important issue of ... Working for a living...
will be ignored.

Its LikeWhatever

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but you forget that I moderate here, not them. I get to choose which comments appear....


hahahahahahahahahah

The Bray of Fundie said...

Most amazing passage IMHuO is where he implies that pure limud is, so to speak, sterile and brings no peiros.

What does ומהודענא mean?

WanderingJew said...

TBOF
What does ומהודענא mean?



"And as to his notifying me ...about"

For the yechidim Bnei Aliya the peiros seem to be the 'Yechudim'. Its for the regular guys that he is focusing on.

Anonymous said...

Did Reb Usher Stoliner have at least Chasidim Gevirim?

Anonymous said...

Wandering Jew,
In Lubavich it is the Rebbe that wanted certain changes, that he emphasized some aspect based of the philosophy of Dira Batactonim. Obviously if someone violates the Shulchan Oruch, then he is on his own. Because the Rebbe was a ish halacha. The online readers would appreciate if some Karliner would do some explaining on behalf of the Karliner Rebbe Zol derleben Moshiach.

Anonymous said...

It seems that the whole concept of Limud hatorah every second vs. limud hatorah thru Krias Shema only is Discussed by the Rishonim as the Ran in Nedorim that holds to his belief that every 2nd has to be spent on torah, Vs. The Radbaz that thinks different.
What I am not getting from Reb Usherel, that he does not discuss the Bitochan part. Can the talmid chochem have bitochen that hashem will provide him money for learning and give tzedaka and Hachnosas Orchim?

Pinchas said...

Seems that Lubavitch contains a very strong element that hates lomdei Torah?
Why?Jealousy?Are they the ones not fooled by the very active Lubavitch p.r department?


I "liked" the swipe, in true "pot calling frying pan black" that Hirshel took at Stoloner gevoreners!
You see after all Hirshel is not a "gevorener" and without gevoreners Lubavitch would be a lot "bigger".Interesting

Anonymous said...

Pinchas,
why the attack on Lubavich now? if a blogger is asking a innocent question why induct Lubavich in every Post, if you can not answer like a mensch, just bug off.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it seems like Pinchas sufferes from A.D.D. and can't focus on the topic at hand

It seems like Stoliners were fooled once already....

Shimshon said...

Somebody has to help with this.
Quoting a possuk "yegia kapecha ki toichal" and Aggadata of godol hanehna meyegia kapov yoser miyerei shomayim", something that needs to be understood, without quoting the Ramba"m,who actually appears to concur,HOWEVER, the nosei keilim who usually defend the Rambam, actually disagree quite vehemently, which is very unusual.

There is so much more to this than a few cherry picked quotations.
On this blog there was a whole discussion where someone (maybe R'Yoel K)attacked the whole Satmar shitabecause it's based on Agaddedatahs.Well what is this??

Anonymous said...

Reb Usher talks about his BIL (Gisi) who was he?

WanderingJew said...

Tzig. " I get to choose which comments appear...."

Pls practice ur delete power.

Do not allow this post to become a Lubavitch Vs Stolin bashing ground.

Angel said...

Wandering
Why not open ur own blog?
C'mon, you stated ur opinion and the guy who runs it apparently want to run it his way.Just like Sinatra in his "My Way"

Pinchas said...

"Pinchas,
why the attack on Lubavich now? if a blogger is asking a innocent question why induct Lubavich in every Post, if you can not answer like a mensch, just bug off."


Did you actually READ the blog??
Read it thru, than get back to me.K?

Yechiel said...

Interesting world we"d have if only yechidei segulah learned and everyone else worked.
Sounds like we"d have a boon of Amei Ha"aratzos.

Asher said...

Part of this discussion has to include what happened during the Holocaust, when Jews and Torah were decimated.
It may well be that this letter is totally not applicable to a generation were most Jews are secular

WanderingJew said...

Yechial.
Ummm. i might of missed something. Where exactly are the great Talmidei Chachamim today?

Oh. You probably meant in der heim. So how many Yidden learnt full time them? How many were Talmidei Chachamim?

WanderingJew said...

Asher. according to Reb Avigdor Miller only a Million of the 6 Million were shomrei TUM Pre War.

i never saw any official reliable stats but the numbers usually quoted are that in Poland. Lita, Russia, Galicia approx %80 were not religious. germany was much worse with Hungary being the best.Is that much different then the #'s today?


However you might be correct that in the period this letter was written most jews were still frum, although most were probably pheasants and farmers.

Tzig help us out with the historical timeline pls.

LikeWhatever

Shmerl said...

there is a article from Abish Schur in Kovetz Beis Aharon on this topic.

Do you know what issue? Lot's of them are available on-line.

Friendly Anonymous said...

At what age is it a chiyuv for a father to teach his son a profession? this has surely changed since the early 20th century. Shouldn't we push this off till high school?

Yechiel said...

Wandering
There are a great number of real talmidei chachomim in almost all kreizen.
With one caveat, one group that does not believe in long term study.There there is a real dearth of talmidei chachomim, real-non-internet or Enclpedia Talmudis talmidei chachomim.
You can guess where.
Lately they needed to import a young rov all the way from horei hachoshech

Shmerl said...

There are a great number of real talmidei chachomim in almost all kreizen.

For some reason it doesn't look like it's the case. There are a lot of pepole in koylelim, but very few high level quality poyskim come out. Why is it? Is the study standard degraded in itself, or there are other reasons?

Yechiel said...

Shmerl,
Go to a well stocked beis hamedrash and see seforim written in our generation and you will be astounded.
Loh almon Yisroel.
See seforim by R'Usher Weiss someonewho is literally boki bkol hatorah, just one example

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

here's a thought!

Maybe Reb Osher was happy with Jews that served G-d mit an emes and were very simple, rather than having so-called "Talmidei Chachomim," as Yechiel likes to put it, who really have no shaychus to Torah or to the Noyseyn haTorah!

Yechiel said...

As I said there is one group very busy, but not really associated with intensive learning.There you"ll have a problem finding people who have learned thru Sha"s (especially in light of the fact that they have something against Daf Hayomy)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

right.
45 minutes on a blatt in Bava Basra is REALLY intensive....

WanderingJew said...

The point is that the masses learning are not creating masses of True Talmidei Chachamim. There might be more 'yodea sefer's', more kovtzim, but no more 'Echad Yotzes"

Yechial you are correct that Lo Alman Yisrael. There was, is, and always will be, YECHIDIM who are Beki'im in Kol Hatorah. And in the YECHIDIM line Lubavitch has their fair share of Talmidei Chachamim.

Yechiel said...

R'Hirshel,
Those Jews who serve Hashem with an emmes are in direct contradiction to ein am ho'oretz chosid.A mishna in Perek.
I"m not being mezalzel, but a simple yid has no idea about "Nosein Hatorah"

Yechiel said...

Where did I say "45 minutes on a blatt in Bava Basra is REALLY intensive...."??

Anonymous said...

Shimshon
"without quoting the Ramba"m,who actually appears to concur,HOWEVER, the nosei keilim who usually defend the Rambam, actually disagree quite vehemently, which is very unusual."

their is no clear cut psak in Shulchan Orech that would guide you on this issue,But the Rambam was definitly on the side of the Stoliner by his pesak that even Rabonim and Roshie Yeshivahs can not take payroll, so even the holy Rebbe Reb Usherel would have to go work.

Yechiel said...

"And in the YECHIDIM line Lubavitch has their fair share of Talmidei Chachamim."

They do??
Oh, you mean people who learned elsewhere and may have joined?
Even those people must be real "nistorim"
I"m sure Hirshel will like you attempt at "buttering him up" aka "chanufa"

WanderingJew said...

TZIG. This is becoming again a defend Lubab post!

YECHIAL hust eppes tzi zuggin vegen gein arbeiten?

Like how to help struggling Yingerleit escape kollel?

LikeWhatever

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yechiel

stop showing us all how little you know about Lubavitch

a 5-year old can repeat the same gibberish you do that you heard from your 10th grade maggid shiur

ובזה נסיים

Anonymous said...

Yechiel,
"Go to a well stocked beis hamedrash and see seforim written in our generation and you will be astounded"
unfortunately all the seforim of our generation give us a different picture, their is no Godal that was born after the war that is a boki beshas, did you ever look in Chebiner Rov seforim? his father teshuvhas? Marsham? Reb Yosef Engel? or hear Reb Pinchos Hirschprung? this gedolim knew Kol Hatorah Kulo, you asked them a question in Hilchos Shabbos they would find a biur according to a Rashi in Eirechen or a Tosfos Yeshonim, all and I am saying all, seforim today are debating from morning to night the biur in the Biur Halacha and what Reb Chaim Kanievsky or Reb Pinchas Shienberg said. It is sheer amaratzus hovering in this world. all millions of dollars were wasted.

WanderingJew said...

TZIG TZIG.

Men meig eich gebben Mussar?

Yechial posted some decent ideas and some nasty remazim. at best just censor out the attacts. But instead of just doing tzi der zach... you attacked him back. Ma Chazis ...

Oy vi shver s'iz shmeesen mit heimishe Yiddelach.

Its LikeWhatever

Anonymous said...

Yechiel,
"See seforim by R'Usher Weiss someonewho is literally boki bkol hatorah, just one example"
Rabbi Usher Wiess is the symptom of our generation, he knows very well how to take 3 lines of Bekius in Pardas Yosef (pachanovsky)and blow it up in a 6 page shmuess, it is torah lite, for balie batim.
How little do you know what original Torah greatness is,

Yechiel said...

"YECHIAL hust eppes tzi zuggin vegen gein arbeiten?

Like how to help struggling Yingerleit escape kollel?"

I certainly do!!
Kolel is the best place for the first few years after marriage.
Nobody in America needs my help to
"escape kolel" (btw, that's a very horrible way to talk about lomdei torah).
The fact of the matter is that Lakewood, current Ihr Hatorah in America, has a majority of it's yidden not in kollel currently.Most of these people are now working.As someone who is well travelled I can tell you that in my humble opinion,Lakewood is one of the best places for a heimishe yid to live in.
The people who have taynes against yungehleit are usually people who hate.Hate Torah or people who disagree with them.

You can go out and ask around and find out that Lakewood is one of the most popular areas for meshulchim from Eretz Yisroel.It's inhabitants are seen as being very charitable and Lakewood has a nice share of gevirim.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

hate, hate, hate

and they say that I'm paranoid, yechiel

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

who are these Meshulochim getting money from, the people earning 400 bucks a month with 8 kids??

Ohhh. it's the people that the Kolel people don't like, because they fargrebt the city and made BMG irrelevant.

Oh, those terrible people give Tzedokoh?

psshhhh

But again. We're going off topic.

Yechiel said...

"Rabbi Usher Wiess is the symptom of our generation, he knows very well how to take 3 lines of Bekius in Pardas Yosef (pachanovsky)and blow it up in a 6 page shmuess, it is torah lite, for balie batim.
How little do you know what original Torah greatness is,"

Do me a favour and get a name so I know not to take any notice of your nonsense.
R'Usher Weiss is a boki bekol hatoroh kuloi mamesh, rosh yeshiva of a couple of yeshivos, rosh kolel lehor"oh,Poisek and a daily magid shiur of both Daf hayomi in Bavly and Yerushalmy!

You real are an ignoramus

Yechiel said...

"who are these Meshulochim getting money from, the people earning 400 bucks a month with 8 kids??"

Herr zech aiyn, my friend.
My whole point was that most people in Lakewood are actually working!
And yes, yungelait are very generous.True.

But I really don't get your arguing over this when you yourself admitted that you have never been in BMG, WHICH HAS ABOUT 5000 Talmidim and I"m not evensure you've ever been to Lakewood itself.

It's not really of topic because if you compare the levels of poverty between Crown Heights and Lakewood you"ll see that poverty APPEARS (NOT BEING A NOVI i CAN'T SAY i KNOW THIS FOR A FACT)to be greater in Crown Heights, despite only one kolel.
So, learning does not seem so bad, after all

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"Oh, you mean people who learned elsewhere and may have joined?"
have you heard of the 2 Kalmansons brothers? have you ever see the works of rav of Kfar Chabad? Did you listen to the shiurim of Goldberg of Migdal Hoemek? Reb Libel Shapira of Miami? all born and bred in lubavich.
Did you read the seforim and articles of Rav Gerlitzky, it has much nicer bekius then your hero Godal wannabe Reb Usher Wiess, just without the pomp the Belitas in chabad lingo.

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
he can have titles as long as Kapital Kuf Yid Tes, but it will not change the fact of Rav Usher Wiess, he is no Godal and definitely no Goan. In all his seforim he never brought an original Sevura or Marie Mokam, Niese Sefer Venechzeh.

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"Do me a favour and get a name so I know not to take any notice of your nonsense."
I am petrified to .... by publicizing my name even a pen name. you will embarrass me forever, since you are "So Sharf" and I a simple ignoramuss not reliazing the Goan of our genaration Reb Usher Wiess.
BTW, did you do the tour of Auschwitz with the Goan Hador Reb Usher Wiess? What u think it was really "emotional" Wow

Yechiel said...

Fellas
Since I do have a job b'h (but b"h no boss...)
we will have to continue this discussion later.
I can tell you that I miss my days in kolel.

Anonymous4:30
You obviously don't know R'Usher at all.It's totally useless arguing.

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"APPEARS"
I think your "Appears" is like a fact, so go on and spew hate.

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
",Poisek "
for whom exactly? I never heard a psak of his quoted anywhere? Worm in fish? Triefa hot cups?

Fremd said...

who are these Meshulochim getting money from, the people earning 400 bucks a month with 8 kids??

Ohhh. it's the people that the Kolel people don't like, because they fargrebt the city and made BMG irrelevant.

Oh, those terrible people give Tzedokoh?
--------------------------------
Tzigalah, come down. The shalmiyim knock on the doors of yungeleit with no saving acounts. They give.


I happened to never have heard about Litvishe being dragged in by Stolin. From what I hear from the inside, Stolin ain't that Litvishe, at least from a Litvishe perspective. They will value more an ehrinsteh yungerman who has limited intelectual capacities vis-a-vis a mitzuyin who is just a regular guy [Different than Litivisheh]. Also, in Stolin, ti might be possible, for yungerman who doesn't understand lomdus to smugly say "duz iz nisht unzereh mehalach" and go to sleap soundly, instead of having to exhert himself to achieve his full potential like it is in the yeshivos were they expect something from you.

Anonymous said...

"Yechiel
"Oh, you mean people who learned elsewhere and may have joined?"
have you heard of the 2 Kalmansons brothers? have you ever see the works of rav of Kfar Chabad? Did you listen to the shiurim of Goldberg of Migdal Hoemek? Reb Libel Shapira of Miami? all born and bred in lubavich.
Did you read the seforim and articles of Rav Gerlitzky, it has much nicer bekius then your hero Godal wannabe Reb Usher Wiess, just without the pomp the Belitas in chabad lingo."

Hey there, don't knock R. Weiss - not nice. I don't get you, why does the existence of a couple of Chabad lomdim, even if they are trully big, get you excited? What does that do for you?

FYI said...

Mir dach zach, this was in Mishpuchah mag a year or two ago

Cecil said...

Lubavitchers mussar us that they know we are not lishmoh in our criticisms of them because they can “see hate dripping from our words”. Why are Lubavitchers always so quick to notice and accuse others of lashon hora and sinas chinom? Can’t they see that it’s actually their own community that is suffering from too much of these traits? They’ve let a petty neighborhood rivalry with another chasidic group pump hate and anger into their communities. It would appear that when Lubavitchers accuse others of petty jealousy, territorialism, and sinas chinam they are merely projecting their own middoh ro’oh. The craziest, most ironic part is that they’re the ones doing the things they blame us for causing Moshiach not to come.

Anonymous said...

I have no idea why Hirshel has this Crazy Cecil on. A issue was brought up with no chabad relation and this eas released from the asylum to rehash his vomit. I beg you a crazy like this, with no chidush, not even a chidush in the Sugya of Sinas Lubavich, should be cut off.

WanderingJew said...

Here is the link to Abish Schur article on this letter.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/13543

its on page 138 (of the pdf) and further.

seen it all said...

Yechiel, let's get real. RUW is a hollywood actor with a good flair for PR. Er ken lernen, and speaks gr8. But to consider him one of the 'gedolim' of our generation is laughable if it wasn't so sad.

I'm a gabbai tzedaka, and see people every day with their litany of tzoros. 90% of the people collecting is to buy their engaged kids apts in EY. Isn't this crazy? A yungerman in his early 40's is trudging around the USA, literally shnorring in shuls every morning so his kid can sit in a kollel for 10 yrs on whose cheshbon? I've dealt with 3RD GENERATION shnorrers from Y'layim. We've set ourselves up for this disaster. It is totally nuts. Let the fathers come with a bechina grade from the RY to prove his chosson halt beim lernen and then we'll support him. Instead it's every one belongs in kollel, Chabad doesn't care for learning, you're jealous blah blah blah. This is sickening and getting sicker. And BTW more and more baalei baatim are catching on to this and the collectors are working harder and leaving with less.

One last note to my fellow lubab brothers: Meshullachim open up to me and tell me everything. And they all say that lakewood is one of the best places to collect, people open their doors and give b'simcha. They may not give much, but they at least open their doors. BP & flatbush are tough, williamsburg is pretty good, and CH is so-so. So don't knock lakewood so quick.

WanderingJew said...

Schur claims that the letter was written to his BIL who was weak and it would be damaging to his health to learn.

However from the toichen of the letter, the concepts Reb Asher Karliner is espousing would seem to trancend one mans illness.

As if it makes any difference... All the oilim is busy with is who's Co. Inc. is better then the others.

Its LikeWhatever

WanderingJew said...

Hey Tzig. did u see. SEEN IT ALL, actually gave a balanced view.
To sum it up.
Kollel system is setting us up for disaster, Blaming Chabad for being jealous is not tackling the issue at hand. And the Lakewood oilam gives the lots of Tzedaka Besimcha.

Now that was a breath of fresh air. finally someone seing slightly past his isle.

Lern dich up Tzig. Its LikeWhatever

מענדל said...

הירשעלע
איך וואלט מציע געווען פאר די וואס זוכן לומדות אין ליובאוויטש צו זיך ארום קוקן אביסל אויף די הערות וביאורים, און דערנאך אויב זיי האבן עפעס תוכן'דיג קענען זיי ריידן.
לתועלת די וואס זיינן גרייט א קוק צו טאן www.haoros.com
מענדל

Anonymous said...

Wandering Jew,
It seems from Shurs article that chasidim recieved loads of heat for this letter from the Misnagdim, and he wrote a 2nd apolegetic letter, which I would like to see too. Maybe the current Stoliner Rebbe bases his hanhoge on the 2nd letter.The most controversial part of reb Usher letter is that Massa Umatan his on a higher level then Torah, which the Tanya definitly differs with him.

Anonymous said...

Wandering Jew
The last Radziminer rebbe before the war wrote a big sefer adressing 3 issues Chinuch,Marrying off kids early,Parnossa. It is based alot on Kabala and chassidus of the chabad school (I thing he was manytimes by the Kapuster or Liadi)his views are not on the same page with Reb Usher, check it out, it is not a easy study, but it is worthed.

Eli said...

I find this blog disingenuous.
Is this supposed to be an open discussion??
The blog is run a Lubavitcher.In Lubavitch the concept of learning in kolel is almost non existent at least in the USA.Sure, some young men as a rite of passage spend a year in kolel in preparation for shlichus.But even that is not very similar to the kolel study found in other communities.In Lubavitch its as a preparation for shlichus so relevant such issues are studied there.
So Lubavitchers have already voted kolel as "out" or "Snaggish" so what exactly is the pretext to actually "discuss" this issue with the blog owner.
Does he hold of "kolel"?Absoloutely not!
Does it have anything to do with this letter from R'Usher of Karlin? Again,absoloutely not!
So all the letter and blogging is to "prove" the Lubavitch point.
Some "discussion" we are getting here!!
Btw, the letter really raises eyebrows.This is surely not what ANY community has been brought up on.Yes, including Lubavitch (of old, at least..)Anybody who has seen hilchos talmud torah in Shulchan Oruch Horav, knows that this letter is a million miles away from what this letter portrays.In fact according to the Baal Hatanya limud hatorah includes a chiyuv to learn kol hatorah kulo.How can that be done only as a "kovea itim"?And further more this mitzva applies to all Jews, not only "yechidei zsegulah"

Anonymous said...

Eli,
a Lubavicher is possul to talk about anything that his community has a different view. Did you ever discuss bill gates? are you in his league of fonance? or in his business creativity? in matter of fact by chasidim there is a strong held view, that even the Have Amina of the gemorah is also torah, that means every view in Jewry especially of a Tzadik as reb Usherel

WanderingJew said...

Eli. Actually the discussion began with Bocherim going to work and somehow travelled into Kollelim.

The need to have a system of Bocherim working is pretty universal, and dates back in time accross all party lines.

It is a recent day phenomena to have a mandated 'everyone must
learn' system. All the commenters who have jumped on the opertunity to bash the Lubobs are avoiding the real issue at hand.

azoi vi der velt zugt, 'Ignorance is Bliss'. Chevreh, Keep on attacking Lubavitch, keep on proving who has Bigger and Better Talmidei Chachamim, and when u meet some kids on Ocean Parkway smoking on Shabbos blame that on Lubavith too. Give them a Bracha they should Shteig Away and be zoicheh to tru Kisron Shel Torah KeDaas HaRambam shelo ye"evaad echad Mileilosav.

Its LikeWhatever

WanderingJew said...

"escape kolel" (btw, that's a very horrible way to talk about lomdei torah)"
That was from Reb Yechiel.

All attacks on anyone disagreeing with Kollel System is branded as a Sonei Lomdei Torah.

Sorry we actually LOVE the Torah and thats why we disagree to MANDATED Kollem. Socialist Kollelim have destroyed the Ahavas hatorah of thousands of jews! It has decimated Parnassas, destroyed Shalom Bayis, eradicated the Self Esteem of 1000's of once Ehrliche Yungerleit who were not cut out to learn all day. Instead of encouraging them to be Kovea Ittim and make an honest living LIKE ALL OUR GRANDFATHERS DID. They must live with an inferiority complex of being 'Daas Baalei Battim hepech daas torah'.

For the sake of Ahavas Hatorah and Limud hatorah (and KIYUM HATORAH) Stop mandated Kollelim now!

Its LikeWhatever

The Bray of Fundie said...

To anonymous of 12:29 AM:

the last Radziminer rebbe before the war wrote a big sefer adressing 3 issues Chinuch,Marrying off kids early,Parnossa.

What is the name of the sefer and it's mekhaber and is it available on HebrewBooks.org ?

Yechiel said...

Wandering,
You sound intelligent enough to know that your claims about mandated kollelim are heated rhetoric and not true.
To state my position clearly:Learning in kolel for a year or two after marriage is recommended for almost everybody.It is great for a foundation in life and for learning Torah with a more mature understanding.It is also one of the best things for sholom bayis.Yes! At this stage of a new marriage it is a real building block for a successful Toradiggeh marriage minus some of the stresses encountered in the rough and tumble of the world, together with other nisyonos encountered in the working world, that a young choson and his rebbitzen are without.
5 years is a good water mark for a yingerman to have decided where he will go in the future,working or a kli kodesh.
This is more or less what is happening out in Lakewood.
Blaming all the tzoros of the world on people studying Torah is the exact opposite of all that Torah yiddishkait stands for

Yechiel said...

Btw,
If you are already talking about "mandates",Lubavitch is also go thru it's crisis with a bochur who is not cut out for shlichus seen as a second class shiduch.

The Bray of Fundie said...

or in חפץ חיים not being "branch ready"

Shea said...

Lulei demistapinah,
I would say that this letter was written by the same guy who wrote the Chersoner ones

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

shea

good thing's it's not "mistapinah," eh?

what else is on your list of forgeries?

tell us, please.

Shea said...

I don't know "if" the letter was written by the Chersoner guy, but I"m sure he could have

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so let's start the rumor here, OK, Shea?

"rumor has it that the letters IN בית אהרן are forgeries and were written by the same forger of the Chersoner Genizeh."

RUN WITH IT!

Shea said...

I think it would look a lot better "if" the letter was a forgery.
Or the letter had gotten lost

berl, crown heights said...

Eli said: "Anybody who has seen hilchos talmud torah in Shulchan Oruch Horav, knows that this letter is a million miles away from what this letter portrays. In fact according to the Baal Hatanya limud hatorah includes a chiyuv to learn kol hatorah kulo. How can that be done only as a "kovea itim"?And further more this mitzva applies to all Jews, not only "yechidei zsegulah"

I had similar thoughts when I read the letter (I did enjoy it though). However, what Eli missed in his reference to hilcheis talmud teiroh is that the Baal Hatanya doesn't say there that every Jew must COMPLETE learning kol hatorah kulloh, but that every Jew must spend all his time STRIVING toward this goal until it's reached. As for parnosoh – he may work only as much as necessary to earn for only the most basic sustenance... That is a radical position, to be sure, and it is indeed hard to imagine how this can possibly translate into today's world realities... But, one thing is clear: the Baal HaTanya's ideal is a Jew who lives poorly from the toil of his hands and devotes all his time to limmud hateiroh, not some pudgy-faced pasty-white-handed tzatzkele who is supported by others to learn full time!!!!

WanderingJew said...

"You sound intelligent enough to know that your claims about mandated kollelim are heated rhetoric and not true"
Reb Yechiel.

Well, i certainly enjoy compliments, and im sure you do to, but before we use heave words like 'Rhetoric and not true', lets analyize ur presumption.

"5 years is a good water mark for a yingerman to have decided where he will go in the future,working or a kli kodesh"

take into consideration the following:

Kollel IS mandated! If u dont sell urself as a full time learner ur shidduchim choices are severely comprimised!Telling a yungerman to 'decide' if Kollel is for him is making him go against the very theology which with all of our bocherim were taught, plus his being seen as a social misfit by his peers and wife

In these 5 'mandated' years many ehrliche
yungerleit will feel imprisoned.

assuming a Yungerman is 22 when he marries and leaves Kollel at the minimum 5 year watermark our feller is now 27. He has zero skills to succeed outside of an extremely narrow box. There are very few 'Shtellers' available and there is a crushing mob out there to get one.

Its a nice oft repeated theory that first years in Kollel is good for Shalom Bayis. It CAN be true, considering that the couple knows where in life they are heading...

Yechiel. Ask the Lakewood askanim...

Wandering Jew has wandered thru Lakewood as well...

Anonymous said...

"But, one thing is clear: the Baal HaTanya's ideal is a Jew who lives poorly from the toil of his hands and devotes all his time to limmud hateiroh, not some pudgy-faced pasty-white-handed tzatzkele who is supported by others to learn full time!!!!"

you are a mamzer, ben nidah and a chabatzker. you are incapable of learning full time - not even for a day, because it's too darn harnd. It is much easier for you to work for money and to blog.

fech

Yechiel said...

Wandering
Let's try and talk numbers,k?

I speak of at least three family members I know.
Mr A)Got married a bit late late 20's,20+ years ago.As an older bochur developed a business.Sat in kolel for a while, with growth of family expanded business,left kolel and today is an ehrliche baalabus.
Mr B)Was a serious bochur and yingerman,in fact brother was one of the best guys in BMG.After about ten years left kolel to make parnoso.
Mr C)Serious yingerman, after about 8 years of marriage, left kolel and established business.

I don't want to bore you with long babbeh mayses.The point is that most people don't continue in kolel forever.Sholom bayis problems exist everywhere, but probably a lot less amongst bnai torah

Yechiel said...

"Kollel IS mandated! If u dont sell urself as a full time learner ur shidduchim choices are severely comprimised"

Btoich ami ani yoishev.
True that many frum Bais Yaakov are looking for a "learning" boy.This does not mean the boy is expected to learn full time for more than a few years.
Families know quite well what kind of bochur they are looking for.I really don't see this as a real impediment to shidduchim.

It would be so easy to blame everything on "kolel", but there are soooo many other issues.Understand that a persons complexities start from the day they are born and it's a war from that day, till a hunderd in tzvantzig.
It would be wonderful if we had the "easy" answers.

Anonymous said...

Berl Crown Hieghts,
The Alter rebbe is probably the biggest machmir in hilchos talmid torah,In his chasidus tanya and likutie torah he sees the highest Dvikes Bashem will come only thru limud hatorah, In Likutie torah it seems that Nigleh is even more the Penimus haTorah. So get out and run to the next shul you found open

berl, crown heights said...

anon 5:20,
you are right, but you clearly didn't (more likely were unable to) read what I wrote.

Anonymous said...

Reb Berel
I read exactly what you said, and you are wrong, according to the Alter Rebbes criteria you have to go to work, if you are not capable of becoming a rov, then go to work and be a machzik torah, but in the first 5 years before you conclude the above you can have other people supporting you. The rambam is exclusive with the strong view that no rov or melamud should take any handsout from the community , but the Alte Rebbe definitely does not hold that view.

berl, crown heights said...

anon, citation please

berl, crown heights said...

(besides, who in the world was talking about any pay for a 'rov' or a 'melamed' here?)

berl, crown heights said...

actually, reb anon, I will make your job more precise:

please quote exactly what I said (in my words) and then point out the source proving that statement to be inaccurate

Yossi said...

Can we stop splitting hairs?
The issue was a letter that seems to claim that doing mitvos is on a higher level than learning and EVEN working is on a higher level than learning Torah, except by a chosen few tzadikim.

I don't think this is generally seen as mainstream, besides seeming to contradict many teachings in the Talmud.
Seems that this letter was written in a special case addressed to one individual, not a mainstream ruling

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yossi

so they've been printing this letter for 150 years when it was meant for one individual???

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
Abish Shur of Karlin tries to translate it the same way that it was family member etc... I feel it is a apologetic from todays Karlin.

Anonymous said...

Berel CH
Hilchos talmud torah Perek Gimel Halacha 4

berl, crown heights said...

ok anon, I read it – now pretty please do trouble yourself to point out a specific statement of mine that was inaccurate

WanderingJew said...

Can some learned Chabad master please explain to me the seemingly contradiction between:

1) The Alter Rebbe view in Hilchos Talmid Torah (which is paskaning kedaas the Rishonim [Ran] who are machmir). Plus in Tanya he writes VeTalmid Torah Keneged kulam every time he mentions Torah...
2)The many Mamaarim in Likutei Torah Torah Ohr where the Maaleh of the Baal Esek is in certain areas beyond the Talmid Chacham. The last one i saw was in parshas Noach in the Maamar Mayim Rabim, Also there is mentioned in torah Ohr the Morei De'avdin Tavin who only have to learn Perek Echad Shachris and are more involved in asiyos hamitzvos...
3)The practical fact that Chabad rebeim had tremendous respect for the simple folk (who werent exactly following the Alter Rebbes psak in Talmid Torah)plus historically it doesnt seem to have been enforced very much (like while Reb Shmuel Munkis was hanging out the window way down to Rav Groinem Farbrenging.

check out the Igros of all the Rebeim... you get a different picture.

WanderingJew said...

INMHO

It might be al derech the shaar hakolel inyan from Reb Hillel Paritcher regarding how in the Siddur the Alter Rebbe paskens ledaas HaMekubalim, when he writes clear that when there is a machlokas Nigles Vs Nistar, Nigleh overrides...

VeDaaL, VeDuk, Ve"aKMaL

Anon3 said...

"you are a mamzer, ben nidah and a chabatzker. you are incapable of learning full time - not even for a day, because it's too darn harnd. It is much easier for you to work for money and to blog.

fech"
Hirshel
How did this garbage make it through the strainer? Did you allow it because of it's shock value? Does this kind of blathering have anything of redeeming value? I was under the impression that you had agreed not to post such nivel peh and insanity?

friendly Anonymous said...

Wandering,

The alter rebbe explains the maylo of baalei esek al derech "bemokom sheba'alei teshuva omdim", etc, "zedonos na'asu kezochiyos", etc.

As the alter rebbe says: Shema starts with the tzivui "ve'ohavto es hashem elokecho". And how can one achieve this, davka through "vehoyu hadvorim ho'eyle...al levovecho veshinantom, etc"

friendly Anonymous said...

Wandering,

The alter rebbe explains the maylo of baalei esek al derech "bemokom sheba'alei teshuva omdim", etc, "zedonos na'asu kezochiyos", etc.

As the alter rebbe says: Shema starts with the tzivui "ve'ohavto es hashem elokecho". And how can one achieve this, davka through "vehoyu hadvorim ho'eyle...al levovecho veshinantom, etc"

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon3
I laughed so hard when I saw that comment that I almost fell off my chair.
After that I HAD to let it go through!

Anonymous said...

Wandering Jew,
I have no time now for the long discussion, but from perek 3 halacha 4 it seems he does not pasken fully as the Ran, please look in reb Mottel Ashkenazi biurim on that halacha only, its gevaldig.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
why is a Mamzer ben Nidah worse then Mamzar ben Mamzar, a ben nidah only has a din possul, but is allowed to marry in Klal Yisroel. looks like that idiot needed another piece of Nivel Peh

Anonymous said...

Wandering Jew,
I am far from being the authoritative expert on Chabad, but to understand the seemingly inconsistency between torah vs. mitzvahs, has to explained that their is the (Inyan) ideal concept vs, the timeframe. Torah is the highest clinging (dviekus)beChochmosoi Yisborech, but Lehokim Sukas Duvid Hanoifolas, (as the Alte Rebbe quotes the Arizal regarding that our era is the time for Avodas haTfila)Mitzvas and Birurie Nitzotzas is needed, Vehim Shogisi Hashem Yechaper

WanderingJew said...

Friendly,
I like the pshat. Its nice equation Baal Teshuva and Baal Eisek. That would bring the Baal Eisik to a whole new level.

Is there any link To Rav Ashkenazi's Biurim on Hilchos Talmid Torah?

WanderingJew said...

The bottom line is that according to the Alter Rebbe (in HTT) if you are sitting on kest on someone elses pocket u better be learning EVERY SPARE MINUTE!
No battling!

Hey Reb yechial, btw way if someone takeh serious learner u can do a 9 to 5 job and do some poilisher shteeble learning from 5:30 am (Dus iz shoin Shpeit)with couple hours at night and beat ur 6.5 hour masmidim slowly inching their way to the coveted 5 yr benchmark parole day.

Its not fair to be lazy, pampered, elite and holy all at once. monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs), tetracyclic antidepressants (TeCAs), selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), and serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs)
are very popular these days...

makir es mekomo said...

שוע"ה הל' ת"ת סעיף א' בקו"א.
וז"ל: "אבל בעה"ב דלאו בר הכי הוא לזכות בכתר תורה לעולם, אין עליו שום עונש הם לא ינהוג במדת חסידות זו, ואדרבה 'ירבה בסחורה' (ההדגשה שלי מ.א.מ.) להחזיק תלמידי חכמים. ... וכדאיתא בהדיא בתנחומא פרשת ויקהל זה רץ לזיתו כו', דהיינו 'להרוחה ביין ושמן', (ההדגשה שלי, מ.א.מ.) בבעה"ב דלאו בר הכי הוא ואין בזו מידת חסידות. עכ"ל ועיי"ש כל האריכות.

ברם להלן בסעיף ד' משמע שיש בזה מידת חסידות, ומצוה לתרץ.

מה שברור מדבריו הק' שלימוד תורה כל היום הוא ליחידי סגולה, ובסעיף ד' משמע שזה שייך למעוטי דמעוטי.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Wandering

במחילת כבודכם, to make such distinctions you need to be Reb Hillel P.

Anonymous said...

Wandering
Rav Ashkenazis 5 volumes on hilchas Talmud Torah are available on Hebrew Books.org

Anonymous said...

ben nidah = azus. mamzer, don't remember the gemarah, but I know one when I see one. ditto to chabatzker.

It beets the beerebbe out of me that the baal hablog attracts people who are obsessed with hating the lomdim. I don't understand why that is the case

Bsoch Ami....

Anonymous said...

Anon
their are not too many venues where the view of normal achienu Bnie Yisroel can be aired. My friend you lost touched with reality, this is the mainstream view.

Anonymous said...

איך זעה יעצט די ערשטע מאל דאס, האסט עס גענומען פון בעל בית?

http://www.balboos.com/content/2010/11/%D7%90%D7%99%D7%96-%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99%D7%99%D7%98%D7%9F-%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%A2%D7%9F-%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A0%D7%A1%D7%94-%D7%90-%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%94/

איינער ברענגט דארט אין די קאמענטס דעם שטיקל

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ער ברענגט עס 2 טעג שפעטער, איז ווער נעמט פון וועמען?