Wednesday, November 17, 2010

עלילת דם כפשוטו ממש



On The Main Line is Spreading Lies, Lies and More Lies!!! They have to be lies, otherwise how could they go after Steinsaltz like that?! אלא מאי מוז מען זאגען that it's all a big lie, concocted by Lilienthal to make the Rabbis of the day look like they were in agreement with him. Building his legacy, you might say. Or maybe he was just telling him that so that he would report back to the Government and leave them alone. After all, we all know that Volozhin closed down ONLY because they would be forced to incorporate Limudei Chol into the curriculum. And if they learned Dessauer's biur then why not learn secular subjects?! אלא מאי מוז מען זאגען that the whole thing is a figment of Lilienthal's wild and biased imagination. What's that you say? You believe these same historians when it comes to Chabad? Why of course! With Chabad it's all true, after all, it HAS to be true. But with the Olam haYeshivos it can't be true, because otherise it would be true and that just CANNOT be.

For additional facts about Dessauer and Bnei Lita see the post below, דף ו and on.

106 comments:

David said...

Where is Schneour we we need him?
The "Beiur" was a very popular sefer used by many rabbonim and only one the chamisho chumshai torah was written by Mendelson himself, btw.
Mendelson was no slouch, he was a talmid korov with the Korban Ho'aydo and followed him to Berlin when he accepted the post of chief rabbi.
Needless to say that there is no apikorsus in the biur.

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

I found your heading offensive: On the Mainline is Spreading Lies.

I understand your argument that Lilenthal's report may have been inaccurate, perhaps because he was fed lies and perhaps because he himself distorted what he heard. However, the evidence is clear that many rabbonim provided haskamos to various volumes of the biur. Moreover, many rabbonim quoted various volumes of Mendelsohn's biur.

So there is also a plausible argument that Lilenthal was telling the truth. On the Main Line has many posts providing clear documentary proof of the many frum approved rabbonim who in turn accepted the biur. If you wish to engage OnTheMainline about this issue, then go to his site, look over his material and come out with a counter argument.

Tzig, it is not becoming for you to just call him a liar. Please consider looking at his material, and perhaps apologizing .

yehupitz said...

I understood that tzig was being sarcastic about onthemainline's "lies". He is condemning the yeshivish world for its acceptance of "dirt" on Lubavitch and simultaneous (assumed) rejection of any dirt on the Litvaks. I didn't think he was attacking "S."

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then you've got to be careful Tzig. SDNWOTN.

Anonymous said...

Yerachmiel, your inability to sense Tzig's biting comical irony paast faar a trukener ekhter Chazon Ishnike, not you.... Perhaps pursuing your noble cause of exposing molesters is more your forte....

--ZIY

Fed up in Peoria said...

Lopin, it's called tongue in cheek.

Anonymous said...

I thought we were taking a break from attacking other Jewish groups.
Silly me.
The Tzig is allowed to attack and obsess non stop about the "enemy".
When he gets called on it, he throws a "hissy fit".

yehupitz said...

anon, get a life.

It's not an attack. It's some sarcastic jabbing. I think every reader of this blog, except maybe for... can tell the difference.

Anonymous said...

Tzig, the Tiferes Yisroel on Mishnayos quotes the biur. I don't remember exactly where, it is in Oholes tractate, I have seen it. As others have already pointed out, you are so wrong here. I assume you are an Ungarisher fin derheim, or an Oberlander. How come you are such a farbrenter Lubawitche?

Anonymous said...

on second thought, maybe Yerachmiel himself is being sarcastic...

--ZIY

S. said...

For what it's worth, there were essentially two attitudes toward Mendelssohn and the Biur in non-Chassidic Lita depending on which part of the 19th century we're talking about. This is Volozhin in the first half. Not that this changes the substance of the post, which is the uncritical acceptance of sources and assertions which we like and the rejection (sometimes properly so and sometimes not) of those we don't like.

Yerachmiel, thanks for coming to my defense, but it's alright.

Anonymous said...

Berdichever Roov fasted 40 days after touching MM book, and almost all(5 out of 6) MM kids were meshumodim. Chasam Soifer said that MM is a gilgul of Yoshke . ARE ALL OF YOU OK HERE?

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

This time I noticed the comment instruction "think before you write." Yes I missed the sarcasm. Alas the sarcasm was overdone and the corrective was well concealed. I will admit that my sensitivity about stupid historical revisionism led me off track.

By the same token, Tzig, there is a little too much bleating on your part about attacks on Chabad. Chabad is a looming presence, a major player. As such it will get a mixture of praise and criticism. Truth be told, like all major players with messianic zeal they will overplay their card at times. Also, truth be told, any group's history will be a mixed bag once it is held up to historical evaluation instead of relying on hagiography.

I suppose I jumped because I value OnTheMainline's regular output of genuine, and sometime counterintuitive historical posts. The frum world needs more real history instead of propaganda. And yes, this applies to all its factions.

Tzig, keep your facts coming. complain less. W H Auden once said that he did not waste his time writing negative reviews. He depended on people figuring out what was junk on his own and preferred helping readers spot new work of quality.

Anonymous said...

Yehupitz said:

"It's not an attack. It's some sarcastic jabbing."

Man, you are tone deaf!
What ever you call this post,Tzig was complaining bitterly about nasty comments and attacks against Lubavitch.
Why would he now want to inflame his blog with his "innocent jabbing"?

Anonymous said...

All Mendelsons descendants eventually hobben zech geshmad.
Read up about it.
Still the biur was an excellent work, used by many.
It can still be purchased today.
I believe that Mendelson did the translation, but only commentary on one sefer

S. said...

>Berdichever Roov fasted 40 days after touching MM book, and almost all(5 out of 6) MM kids were meshumodim. Chasam Soifer said that MM is a gilgul of Yoshke . ARE ALL OF YOU OK HERE?

4 out of 6 - and that just shows the weakness of the argument. Normally people aren't attacked for what their children did. Rabbenu Gershom's son was a meshumad. Chacham Isaac Bernays, rebbe of R. SR Hirsch and one of the defenders of the breech in Germany, had two sons. One was a convert, the other a professor at Frankel's seminary. And a granddaughter married Sigmund Freud. Rabbi Akiva Eger had great-grandchildren who were goyim. In short, this is a weak argument.

And it wasn't the Chasam Sofer who said Mendelssohn was a gilgul of Jesus, it was - allegedly - the Divrei Chaim.

Anonymous said...

The only time I recall seeing a Chabad Rebbe refer to a yid with "yemach shemoy" is in a ma'amar of the Rashab ("Lehovin hakushiya hayodu'a" 19 Kislev 5663, Sefer haMa'amorim 5663 vol. 1, 3rd edition [5763], hosafos, p. 143 ) where he refers to "M"D [Moshe Desner] v'talmidov YM"Sh" -- ayin shom.

Also, according to the Rayatz in the reshime, it was only Mendelsohn & Shlomo Dubno who worked on the bi'ur. However, apparently there were several others who also contributed, namely Naftoli Hertz Viezel, & also Aharon Friedenthal & Hertz Hamburg.

There was someone I knew in academia who was researching what parts of the biur were from Mendelsohn/Dubno & what parts were from Veizel et al.

-- ZIY

Anonymous said...

The only time I recall seeing a Chabad Rebbe refer to a yid with "yemach shemoy" is in a ma'amar of the Rashab ("Lehovin hakushiya hayodu'a" 19 Kislev 5663, Sefer haMa'amorim 5663 vol. 1, 3rd edition [5763], hosafos, p. 143 ) where he refers to "M"D [Moshe Desner] v'talmidov YM"Sh" -- ayin shom.

Also, according to the Rayatz in the reshime, it was only Mendelsohn & Shlomo Dubno who worked on the bi'ur. However, apparently there were several others who also contributed, namely Naftoli Hertz Viezel, & also Aharon Friedenthal & Hertz Hamburg.

There was someone I knew in academia who was researching what parts of the biur were from Mendelsohn/Dubno & what parts were from Veizel et al.

-- ZIY

George said...

I love OnThemainline.It's a fascinating read
I wish we could see some focus on Lubavitch and its revisionism on his blog

Anonymous said...

"Also, according to the Rayatz in the reshime, it was only Mendelsohn & Shlomo Dubno who worked on the bi'ur"

He did not know, if that is what he claimed.Lots of his historical stuff is not accurate.I don't think he claimed to be an historian.He was a rebbe and repeated what he had heard.In those days it was difficult to get an honest picture due to the limitations of the time

Anonymous said...

The Tiferes Yisroel quotes the מ"ע
oopps the מאור עינים a banned sefer.

the problem is compounded that in the ויואל משה the Satmar Rebbe brings down the Tiferes Yisroel and מ"ע
Did the SR know who that was?
Yosef 718

Anonymous said...

Anon Ziy
the Rayatz starts out the Reshima, with Viezels name

Simon Dubnow said...

Meir Hildesheimer - Moses Mendelssohn in 19th century Rabbinical Literarture

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3622678

footnote 11
"An interesting view with regard to Hassidism and Haskalah was expressed in the closing decades of the previous century. The Jewish people, it holds had two saviors the ba'al Shem Tov and his "second" Mendelssohn. Both strove to improve the status of the nation, each in his own way and in accordance with the time and place in which he lived. Both, however, failed. The followers of the Ba'al Shem Tov were left devoid of Torah and wisdom, while Mendelssohn's disciples sloughed off the law and the commandments."

page 97
in 1831-33, M'Kor Hayyim Pentateuch contained the Bi'ur la-Talmid... The book of Exodus contained the haskamah of Rabbi Akiba Eger - expressed his hope that the work would be completed and noted that he subscribed to purchase it.

page 106
the Song of Songs, translated by M
Mendelssohn was published in Pressburg,1848
Among the rabbis who subsribed, Ktan Sofer and members of his bet din, MaHaRaHam Schik

page 110
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch expressed his esteem for Mendelssohn in his book Iggrot Zafon.

page 111
article by Isaac hirsch son of RSRH. Mendelssohn is termed "one of the noblest sons of Israel" who had taken his place among the most righteous and honest men in heaven.

page 114
Rabbi Meir Lehman, rabbi of Mainz and editor of Israelit, noted that that as an observant Jew, Mendelssohn united science and Judaism.

page 127-128
the Ba'al Shem of Michelstadt , consistently referred to Mendelssohn as "our rabbi and mentor Rabbi Moses of Dessau"

russian chusid said...

The only yid who was called IMACH SHMO by the Heiliger Rizhiner was MM also...

Anonymous said...

I think Prof. Israel Bartal of Hebrew University made the claim that theRayatz culled a lot of his historical material from wissenschaft historians such as Yass, e.g. a lot of the material used in "Admur HaTzemach Tzedek v'Tnu'as haHaskoloh" is taken from an article by Saul Ginsburg. (See: Israel Bartel in his essay "True Knowledge and Wisdom: On Orthodox Historiography"
p. 184.)

V'al do ksiv: "mey'oyvay tichakmeyni."

-- ZIY

Anonymous said...

Yerachmiel,
"perhaps because he was fed lies"
by whom? was not he their personaly and listened to the Shiurim? The question is why did not the Biur quotes go in to his Heamek Dover ? did he censor himself? In the Yeshiveshe World their is a story circulating that the Chofetz Chaim put the Netziv's Chumash in Geniza for some ideas that he did not like.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718
the Satmar Rov quotes the Meor Einem? maybe Chernobel? not the Adumim? he didn't know of the Maharals war against him?

Anonymous said...

I think Prof. Israel Bartal of Hebrew University made the claim that theRayatz culled a lot of his historical material from wissenschaft historians such as Yass, e.g. a lot of the material used in "Admur HaTzemach Tzedek v'Tnu'as haHaskoloh" is taken from an article by Saul Ginsburg. (See: Israel Bartel in his essay "True Knowledge and Wisdom: On Orthodox Historiography"
p. 184.)

V'al do ksiv: "mey'oyvay tichakmeyni."

-- ZIY

Anonymous said...

Anon Ziy,
Bartal, David Assaf,Halbetal.. and their ilk are on a full fledge war on orthodoxy, that a frum jew is not to be believed even he was their, since he cannot be objective, But the Maskil that despises chasidim with a passion is 100% objective. I guess hate is less powerful then love,

S. said...

>The question is why did not the Biur quotes go in to his Heamek Dover ?

Because the quote is from Reb Itzele Volozhiner, not the Netziv.

S. said...

>the Satmar Rov quotes the Meor Einem? maybe Chernobel? not the Adumim? he didn't know of the Maharals war against him?

Tiferes Yisroel was obviously not quoting the Chernobyler, so if the Satmar Rov quoted the Tiferes Yisroel quoting the Meor Enayim then he was quoting de Rossi.

It defies all plausibility that the Satmar Rov was unaware of the controversy around the Meor Enayim, although it is theoretically possible that he thought it was another Meor Enayim.

Anonymous said...

Yes, mentions Veizel, but not as an author of the Bi'ur.

-- ZIY

S. said...

>Berdichever Roov fasted 40 days after touching MM book, and almost all(5 out of 6) MM kids were meshumodim. Chasam Soifer said that MM is a gilgul of Yoshke . ARE ALL OF YOU OK HERE?

Four of six - but isn't that just illustrative of what a weak argument it is? You have to attack what happened to his kids? Why? Is that really as strong as it gets? Rabbenu Gershom's son was a meshumad. No one holds it against him. Chacham Isaac Bernays of Hamburg - one of the pioneers of German Orthodoxy - had two sons. One was a meshumad and the other was a professor at Frankel's seminary, and his grand-daughter married Sigmund Freud. Rabbi Akiva Eger had great-grandchildren who were goyim.

As for the MM as gilgul of Jesus comment, the Chasam Sofer didn't say it. The Divrei Chaim - allegedly - did. Either way, you know, that wasn't the Dessauer's fault. He didn't pick his neshomo.

Anonymous said...

TY in Mesechet Puruh second perek re: "yavelet"

Moshe S.

Anonymous said...

The Maram Schik writes( I think in Lev Hoivri their is the story too) about the incident he had with his Rebbe the Chasam Sofer, regarding the Biur Chumash, when he was the Rov in Yergen a small country side town, where his Rebbe the CS used to go for the summer weeks. On Shabbos the Rebbe asked him for a Chumash and he gave him the chumash with a biur, his Rebbe was shocked that he owns a chumash like that,it is a long story.
but what we learn from the story is, that the Hamon Am was using the Biur, they were not as allergic as our day and age.

Anonymous said...

Yosef 718
does Gelbman have a excuse for the Michshal of the Moshian Shel Yisroel? maybe his mother came in to his dreams that he should please quote her son, to get him out of the Gienom?

S. said...

>but what we learn from the story is, that the Hamon Am was using the Biur, they were not as allergic as our day and age.

Not just the hamon, the Maharam Schick!

This is well known. Chumash with Beur was the Stone Chumash of its day. It was ubiquitous. Presumably this played some role in the over-the-top trashing of Mendelssohn. Imagine if everywhere you turned was, ich veis, Legends of the Jews and this was the Midrash Says of the masses in America. Presumably Louis Ginzberg attacks would go up.

Anonymous said...

S
"Chacham Isaac Bernays of Hamburg "
sorry for my ignorance, was he the Rebbe of Reb Shamshon Refoel Hirsch?

Anonymous said...

S

Was Shmad common then in that time and geographic location, particularly 4 out of six?
The children is just a supporting argument. It is obvious how translation of the Bible could lead to the spread and strenghtening of Haskalah - indeed many people held such.

You are just playing games with these arguments, because in reality, you don't give a d___ that haskalah spread. [Like the avaryanim who ridicule the issur of yichud]. You think that it was a good thing - in many ways. I can't make a shvuah that you are a shomer shabbos. You are a thrwoback. An old time maskil that is living testimony that acharei ivavchem temptation still burns strong.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

S,
Though not all of Mendelsons kid hobben zech geshmad, I believe that eventually all his descendants,grandkids etc went to shmad.
I"m no fanatic at all, in fact I "d love to see the Bei'ur especially if it has an English translation.Still the fact that he managed that ALL his descendants left Yiddishkait,would point to the fact that something about his pride in Yiddishkait was lacking to say the least..

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

Anon 1:24.
Shame on you!
Why the personal insults against OntheMainline.Yuck!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Maamar haMusgar

I like how "Mottel, non BT non Lubob" is more understanding and accepting of Mendelsohn than of Lubavitch...

VeDal.

{Now back to your regularly scheduled programming}

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yerachmiel Lopin

I'm glad the readers here cleared that up for you :-)

And I accept your advice regarding opinions etc.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

"SDNWOTN."

I give up, Yehupitz

what's it stand for?

S. said...

>sorry for my ignorance, was he the Rebbe of Reb Shamshon Refoel Hirsch?

Yes, although not as extensively as some people might think. He regularly attended his derashos on the advice of the Aruch La-ner, with whom Rav Hirsch really learned Torah. In other words, I'm not sure if R Hirsch had a greater personal relationship than hearing him preach.

>Was Shmad common then in that time and geographic location, particularly 4 out of six?

Sadly, shamd was common in the late 18th and 19th centuries, the reason being that casting off observance may have gotten you out of shabbos, but it didn't get you out of the severe discriminations and civil disabilities against Jews. I don't think a clear stastistic is known, but 100,000s of Jews converted in the 19th century. I don't know if 4 of 6 was common, but surely there is no reason why this could not have happened to a yarei shomayim, and in fact, all but one of those children were very young when their father died.

>The children is just a supporting argument.

Well I've got news for you: it doesn't support it, it weakens it. It makes it look like that's all you've got, and of course it means nothing.

> It is obvious how translation of the Bible could lead to the spread and strenghtening of Haskalah - indeed many people held such.

Fine, so make the argument.

>You are just playing games with these arguments, because in reality, you don't give a d___ that haskalah spread. [Like the avaryanim who ridicule the issur of yichud]. You think that it was a good thing - in many ways. I can't make a shvuah that you are a shomer shabbos. You are a thrwoback. An old time maskil that is living testimony that acharei ivavchem temptation still burns strong.

I agree that I think it was a good thing in many ways. I also think opposition to it was a good thing in many ways. I think both sides could have done better had they done some things differently.

I don't need you to make a shavuah, so it's okay.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

"I like how "Mottel, non BT non Lubob" is more understanding and accepting of Mendelsohn than of Lubavitch..."

I can explain WHY if you want...

Knowing you, you'd rather stick your head deep in the kool-aid like the bas ya'ano.You only want to hear opinions and hagiography that agree with your chevereh.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

Hirshel, you can do a search for a pic of Mendelsons matzeivo.
One of the Seven Cow chevreh once posted a pic he took iirc while in Germany.
The matzeivo is a simple looking traditional one

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

there you go again, Mottel, non BT, non-Lubob

(non what else?

here's the matzeivah

traditional for a gentile, maybe

S. said...

>Though not all of Mendelsons kid hobben zech geshmad, I believe that eventually all his descendants,grandkids etc went to shmad.

That might be true (although I've never seen proof of this) but again, so what? Do you think he was the only one? You think every sheyne yid in the 18th century has Jewish descendants? Now that evidently most Jews see no problem with marrying non-Jews nowadays, you think there aren't loads of ehrliche yidden from the late 19th-early 20th century who have no Jewish descendents today?

>I"m no fanatic at all, in fact I "d love to see the Bei'ur especially if it has an English translation.Still the fact that he managed that ALL his descendants left Yiddishkait,would point to the fact that something about his pride in Yiddishkait was lacking to say the least.

The Beur is online in several places, such as here:

http://aleph500.huji.ac.il/nnl/dig/books/bk001838482.html

The translation is just a boring German translation. The real action is the Beur itself, which is in fairly comprehensible Hebrew. I think most people would read it and not really get what is so terrible about it.

His pride in Yiddishkeit was just fine. He very publicly and proudly identified as a Jew, and not only a Jew, an observant Jew. He never hid it. He endured insults, and did not back down. He wrote books for gentiles justifying Judaism and observance, and articles defending Chazal and contemporary lomdim.

True, you can make the case that he was too assimilated, or more accurately, that even though he could do it "many tried and failed" - and this is the real shoresh of the opposition. But it is simply a canard that his pride was lacking.

Tzig, turn that stone over:

http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2007/07/simple-stone.html

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

You are fast!
Iirc there was only Loshon kodesh.
I guess that was the other side of the monument.
Off course I could be wrong

Mottel said...

Had Mendelson been alive today - with his then shitos - he would have been a Torah u'mada YU'nik - well within the normative Orthodox spectrum.

His issue was the inside looking out haskafa and the bridge it served to the outside world.

Mottel said...

-Mottel mottel, non bt,non lubob: What gives with the name?

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

S,
Your point of shmad affecting even the greatest Jews (including,well on this blog I can't say,but his father wrote one of the important chasidic works)is true.THAT'S why I pointed out that every single one of Mendelsons descendants eventually converted out.
That's pretty tough to beat,don't you think???

Anonymous said...

I think the Hebrew name for the Biur, is "Nesivas Sholem"

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

Btw,
I see that my memory served me correctly with Mendelsons monument.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

-Mottel mottel, non bt,non lubob: What gives with the name?


I don't want to be mistaken for what I"m not

Anonymous said...

it is interesting that his monument is so simple,in these modern cemeteries it was usually big and bulky.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

S,
Btw, I love your blog!
Really superb!
Fascinating!

Mottel said...

So why not write Non-Gentile as well.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

Mottel,
When I find a gentile with my name I may do that.
In the meantime....

Anonymous said...

Around 8 years ago I was invited to a private event in the lavish home of a famous Israeli-New York artist in downtown Manhattan. This was such a choshuveh gathering that the Spanish filmmaker Pedro Almadovar was there, with the actor Javiar Camara (who just acted in his latest film).

While walking through his museum-like abode with security guards & cameras all over, I noticed a large canvas that looked like a silk print hanging high on the wall. It was a recent work, yet In the center was the unmistakable portrait of Moshe Mendelsohn.

Just then, the ba'al habayis himself walked into the room, so I asked him pointedly why does he have a portrait of MM in his house? What is the connection to him?

To which he answered that MM is his great-great-great-grandfather! & that he made this piece of art to be connected to his illustrious ancestor!

So, perhaps all of MM's descendants are no longer frum, but at least one of them still identifies himself as a Jew & an Israeli, albeit a secular one.

-- ZIY

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Mottel

you should've known that cutesy response was coming...

Anonymous said...

Simon Dubnow
"footnote 11
"An interesting view with regard to Hassidism and Haskalah was expressed in the closing decades of the previous century. The Jewish people, it holds had two saviors the ba'al Shem Tov and his "second" Mendelssohn. Both strove to improve the status of the nation, each in his own way and in accordance with the time and place in which he lived. Both, however, failed. The followers of the Ba'al Shem Tov were left devoid of Torah and wisdom, while Mendelssohn's disciples sloughed off the law and the commandments."
whoms quote is this? Mier Hildeshiemers? what do I care what this shote Roshe vegas ruach has to asay? his life agenda is to be Methaar es Hasherestz, he has a infamous article that tries to refute the words of the Chasam Sofers words in the will that "Besifrie Remad al Tishlech Yad"
that it was written Chemed, meaning the novels of his daughter in law the Kesav Sofer, he is twisting the manyscript to such a strech, he is laughed off by any serious observer. His analogy of Chasidim with the biggest Shmad factory on earth, shows you his colors.If a Yid is a shomer shabos umitzvas with Emuna Peshuta, is the same as a Apikoras is the same in his eyes.

S. said...

>Your point of shmad affecting even the greatest Jews (including,well on this blog I can't say,but his father wrote one of the important chasidic works)is true.THAT'S why I pointed out that every single one of Mendelsons descendants eventually converted out.

I don't know if that's true. It's possible that some through the two who didn't convert didn't have children or surviving children. I am unaware of anyone who has proven one way or the other.

>That's pretty tough to beat,don't you think???

How do you know that, ich veis, Reish Lakish has Jewish descendants? You don't, you just assume it. Needless to say, Mendlessohn is not a unique individual in this regard. He may be the only famous one symbolically associated with assimilation, which is why it is pointed out as a proof that he was tainted. But unless somehow we now judge people for the sins of their descendants, it doesn't mean anything. Why was Rabbi Akiva Eger zoche to have goyish descendents? Right, ch"v"sh to even ask. This is the churban of the 19th century and good families were affected.

Mottel, thank you.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

ZIY &S
From Wiki
"Mendelssohn had six children, of whom only his second-oldest daughter, Recha, and his eldest son, Joseph, retained the Jewish faith. His sons were: Joseph (founder of the Mendelssohn banking house, and a friend and benefactor of Alexander von Humboldt), Abraham (who married Lea Salomon and was the father of Fanny and Felix Mendelssohn); and Nathan (a mechanical engineer of considerable repute). His daughters were Dorothea, the mother of Philipp Veit (and subsequently the consort, and then wife, of Friedrich von Schlegel), Recha and Henriette, all gifted women. Recha's only grandson (son of Heinrich Beer, brother of the composer Giacomo Meyerbeer), was born and educated as a Jew, but died very young, together with his parents, apparently from an epidemic. Joseph Mendelssohn's son Alexander (d. 1871) was the last male descendant of Moses Mendelssohn to practice Judaism."

True it says MALE descendants.So maybe some of the female descendants did not convert.
Still this unsavory record is tough to beat!

anon4 said...

Mottel 6

Fed up in Peoria said...

Maybe Mendelsson's grand children were meshumadim because they weren't accepted into any yeshiva.

Dessau, 4,515 miles from Peoria

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

S,
Since I really respect your you and you blog I don't want to belabor the point.
However, as my handle hopefully shows, I"m not a kool-aid drinker, either.
So the bottom line is that if all or almost all an individuals descendants convert to Christianityit does say something about them.Sorry.
Btw, The Chasam Sofer has a huge line that descend from him and I believe largely frum and I do thinks it says a lot about him.
R'Akiva Eiger, who had many kids, is largely represented in the Orthodox world by his son-in-law The Chasam Sofer and his grandchild who became a chosid anda rebbe.

S. said...

>Since I really respect your you and you blog I don't want to belabor the point.
However, as my handle hopefully shows, I"m not a kool-aid drinker, either.
So the bottom line is that if all or almost all an individuals descendants convert to Christianityit does say something about them.Sorry.

I never said you're a kool aid drinker.

Are you so confident that no one of stature will ever be discovered where this turned out to be the case?

>Btw, The Chasam Sofer has a huge line that descend from him and I believe largely frum and I do thinks it says a lot about him.

It does. But if the opposite were the case, would we really use it to prove that he was krum? Don't mistake symbolism for substance.

S. said...

PS I"m fine agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

mottel, non bt,non lubob said...

S
Ok, we"ll agree to disagree.
Lol

bpunbound said...

Hirshel,

Well done....although I hardly thought the result would be 60+ comments on the red-herring topic of the Jewishness or lack thereof of Mendelsohn's progeny.

What a waste of time!

Mendel said...

"What a waste of time!"

Big tsulayeger!
Nobody told you to visit or comment.
Go fly kites!!

Soon to be Jobless said...

Stupid blog, can't get any !@#$%^& work done.

bpunbound said...

"Big tsulayeger!
Nobody told you to visit or comment.
Go fly kites!!"


Congratulations Hirshel....I see you're cultivating a much higher class of visitors as of late.



Oh well, whatever brings home the bacon.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no, no, no
I figured allowing a comment like that to pass would actually get you to come back more often than your current once in six months...

Kaplooee!!!

Anonymous said...

Mottel
you forget about Reb Akiva Eiger, the famous Ben Acher Ben, Eiger family of the Lubliner Rebbe of Benai berak with his son in law the Amshinover Rebbe.

Mr B said...

"Kaplooee!!!"

What is this? A secret Lubavitcher gevorener code??

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no, just onomatopoeia

leo said...

Anon ZIY, the 5663 article is not by Rashab. It most likely has nothing to do with him, and was not written by him in any case. Probably some Hassid wrote it.

Anonymous said...

A good few years ago in the pages of Jewish observer, it was hotly debated the sins of Mendelsohn. The Novominsker Rebbe and his colleagues had a big dilemma , that in a long biographical article by Shafran in the Jewish Observer that supposed to be be Shomer Hachomos of our generation,Mendelsohn came across as a good Jew Shomer Torah, with some problems in Emuna Chachomim profile. From Shafran you did not see the Masis Umediach of most of European Jewry. The Novominsker wrote some weak rebuttal on Shafran,and the case was closed. I was amazed that Shafran was still writing periodic for them, then he was Oila Legdula to be the Aguda mouthpiece. It is interesting that the Jewish observer that considers itself so pure, and couldn't give a decent eulogy for Rav Soloviechig, a Goan a Yerai Shomaim Bnon Shel gedolai Hador,with a family of good kids. I am no MO guy but it shows a certain lack of Manhigas in this Aguda office. that Asher Tiharti Timasi ....

Chernigover Rav said...

There were 2 Moses Mendelsohns the historic figure who was an observant yehudi and was called by Herman schwab as the father of German neo - orthodoxy.
But there was Mendelssohn the mythical figure who to us Yidden in East Europe portrayed all that was wrong with most of German Jewry and that was - shmad, ameratzus, assimilation and hatred for us Ost-Juden. Thus we are obliged to be careful if we speak of the historical Moses of Dessau or der heyker from Berlin. Both are real.

Anonymous said...

To anon who claims that the Vyoel Moshe quotes from the Tiferes Yisroel who in turn quotes form the Rossi. I searched the Vyoel Moshe glossary (mafteach) and didn't find it. Could you please give us the exact place where in Vyoel Moshe it is.

evanstonjew said...

S…we’ve been over this more than once and I always lose the debate. If you remember I tried with R. Wolf Eybeschutz... So of course I’ll try again. Lol. Dorothea Mendelssohn left her husband and children, took off her sheitel and ran off with Schlegel. In her old age having turned from Protestant to Catholic, she devoted her time and energy to turning her remaining Jewish nephews and nieces. This is pathological. She was not a child when her father died.
I find your examples unconvincing. Rabbeinu Gershom’s son must have lived around the First Crusade in some Rhineland town. No one converted voluntarily. Not so Berlin in the 1790s where all the conversions were more than voluntary. The rich Jewish women who ran the salons were swooning over Schliermacher, the famous Lutheran theologian. You can’t compare great- grandchildren to children, so R. Akiva Eger is irrelevant. This leaves Chacham Bernays. As you know there is this book "Der Bibelsche Orient", which he denied writing. In PAAJR, probably early ‘90s, this question is taken up again and the researcher concludes he did write the book in conjunction with some minister. The book is problematic from an Orthodox perspective. (My memory is iffy, so this requires double checking.) His son Jacob Bernays was one of the great philologists of Greek, but assimilated, (see the essay on him by Momigliano,) leaving the apostate Michael and an Orthodox son Berman.
Berman had 7 children, 5 died while young, leaving our Martha and her sister Minna. First Minna. The Berman family moved from Hamburg to Vienna after Berman finished serving a four-year jail sentence for bankruptcy fraud. When Berman died, Minna was brought up by her mother and the Orthodox Sigmund Pappenheim, the father of Bertha Pappenheim. (This is really astounding, geknipt und gebindin as we say. Bertha was the woman made world famous by Freud as the case of Anna O, a woman who became very ill after she nursed her dying father . Bertha Pappenheim in later life became the great Frankfort Orthodox feminist.) Minna after her fiancé died lived with her sister, and was traditional/Orthodox and very close to Freud, many scholars say too close.I could say more but this is a family blog. Now Martha. I would think Berman and his rebettzin could have broken the shiduch between Martha and Sigmund; the engagement lasted four years, and Sigmund with all his faults was not one to make believe he was Orthodox. The parents gave their agreement. Martha was a little traditional but certainly not Orthodox. Net- net, Bernays is close enough to Mendelssohn not to be a proof text, but another instance of the problem. Why wouldn’t you hold the Chacham a causal influence on his kids?
From the perspective of how biographies are done today, the parents of X and his/her childhood are relevant to X’s development. Nuture is not just the neighborhood, it includes the family, with Oedipal issues and all.

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

Part I of II parts

I am amazed at all this back and forth about who converted or went OTD. It really comes back to the ultra-orthodox insistence that we are better because we retain our own wheras the other approaches are doomed to assimilation. Mendelsohn is used as the archetype example, perhaps because no one disputes his lomdus or even his observance so this proto-maskil becomes the perfect example of the hazards of haskalah (without making fine distinctions between different versions of haskallah.

But the real truth is that there have been many periods and places with a lot of assimilation or even conversion. Certainly there were 100s of thousands of conversions of Jews in Spain the 200 years before the expulsion and in many cases it wasnt coercion. (see Jose Faur on that). I believe there were periods in Italy where there was a large phenomenon. If Shabtai Tzvi hadn't been foolish enough to march into Istanbul he might easily have snared many more, perhaps the majority of world jewry and consolidated his position. We do not have a clear picture of what proportion of Jews were Hellenized to the point of no longer being observant in the Greco-Roman period. Even the Karaaite pheonomenon took large proportions of the many Jewish communities for quite a while.

There were other periods where defection was rare because the outside world provided no options and internal control was high.

Yerachmiel Lopin, frumfollies blogger said...

Part II of II parts

Right now it is not so clear that we will not witness another large wave of defections from the ultra orthodox world. There are widespread problems of the quality of leadership. There is a growing subterranean resentment. Children at risk is discussed so much because there is so much of it. We have many in secret rebellion whose work can be seen on the internet. As I am sure you know Tzig, chabad is not immune and this issues are playing out with some of the children of shluchim. I found it pretty easy to read between the lines when listening to the after dinner speech at the recent kinas for shluchim. It is equally clear that this is affecting the grandchildren of some of the most prominent chareidi leaders across the spectrum.

I think ultra orthodoxy would do well to skip the triumphalism and stick to the business of doing things right. But alas, instead, you get ridiculous claims of 100% retention. I have not read a single hesped of a distinguished person in Yeshiva world or Matzav which did not conclude with the statement that all the descendents are shomrei torah. With older niftarim with hundreds of adult grandchildren that is not likely. It is impossible that this is true for all of the niftarim. I know for a fact it iss not true in some of the hespedim. In some of the cases the facts are widely know. But instead of reality we get lies and desperate cover ups of all sorts.

Please let's stop arguing about whose children did what. The point of departure of the post has been lost in this discussion.

yehupitz said...

I figured allowing a comment like that to pass would actually get you to come back more often

Tzig, that's not how it works. Toxic commenting does not encourage the good guys to refute. It keeps the good guys away. That may not be true of the ursa-toxic blog, but it is true of this one.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Yerachmiel,

To support your point, now that we are getting closer to Chanuka, we would do well to reflect on what happened to the eyniklach of those great fighters of Hellenism, the Makabees.

TKD said...

Just to be mezakeh the rabim, people should know that William Bendix ("The Life of Reilly", "The Babe Ruth Story") was a direct descendant of Moses Mendelssohn.

Chovevei Zion said...

The Netziv is the spiritual forefather of MO rather than the Hareidim. He can't be vinkelized like YY Reines, Shmuel Mohliver and others because you can't make the Rosh Yeshiva of the mother of all yeshivas disappear. The fiction surrounding the details of the closing of the yeshiva has repercussions that effects us continuously.

klainer said...

Chovevei: Please elaborate on what is fiction and truth.Why did the Yeshiveh close? Thanks.

yehupitz said...

CZ: I think that the Netziv, had his brand been successful, would have been the father of an Orthodoxy that is more tolerant of Zionism and Limudei Chol than 21st century Chareididom has ended up, but it would not have been anything like the MO of the 20th or 21st century. It would have been an alternate reality (what-if) version of Yeshivadom. And MO would still have existed in something close to its current form, still in conflict (though lesser than today's pirud.)

bpunbound said...

Why Hirshel, you missed me! Very sweet.

I'll try to get my act together and show up more often. I'm sure my boss won't mind.

Chovevei Zion said...

klainer:

The Netziv was not against secular studies per se. He felt it had no place in his yeshiva. the yeshiva was a place to create talmidei chachomim. It was ok to have learned secular before you came to yeshiva or after. He provided his son Meir with a tutor and the Netziv lamented the fact that he did not understand the Russian language.
The yeshiva tried to provide basic courses in math, Russian etc just to be able to satisfy the Russian government and keep the yeshiva open.
The talmidim weren't interested, The teacher was sitting in an empty classroom.The Neziv went into the beis hamedrash and begged the talmidim to go to the courses for the sake of the yeshiva's future.
Then, the government came out with requirements that made the situation untenable. The Roshei would have to take certain exams, the yeshiveleit would have to learn math and Russian, the hours alloted for learning would be limited. The yeshiva would cease to be a yeshiva. They made no effort to meet these requirements. One morning, the government inspectors came with the police and a mob of russians. One of them read a declaration that all students should leave the building, get their passports from the yeshiva office and get out of town within 3 days. Then the yeshiva was padlocked.
Today, many yeshiva high schools do not have secular studies based on the Volozhin story. Volozhin was for an elite of 400/500. It was for older bochurim and marrieds.

Anonymous said...

Yerachmiel
as alarming as the situation is with OTD kids, we are not up to the situation in Poland and for sure not pre war Germany. Eventough we willnot find any Kefira in the Biur,there is no doubt that Mendelsohn created a environment for mass heresy, that ended with conversion since that was the only way to get accepted to the higher echelons of higher society in Western Europe.

Chovevei Zion said...

yehupitz,
I agree that the Netziv's brand would be different. Just that am calling the Netziv the spiritual forefather of MO. Hareidim have co-opted him as one of their own. If they would really know him, they would have to vinkelize him. Just that they can't.
Volohzhin had two Roshei Yeshiva. At the closing the two were the Neziv and Reb Chaim Brisker. The yeshiva world are spiritual descendants of Reb Chaim. Even though, Reb Chaim would not recognize the yeshiva world of today has having much in common with his world.

Simon Dubnow said...

The ghetto walls were coming down in Germany. Which one created the heresy, the Biur or the walls coming down?

Chaim said...

On the topic of the various "brands" of Orthodoxy.
How has Lubavitch changed?
(Or is that a taboo discussion on this blog?)
There seems to be quite a change in the brand from The Tzemach Zedek and on.
I feel that Kopust and later Bobroisk, as the brand the Z.Z would have favoured.
I"m not sure he'd recognize todays version

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you feel?
you're not sure?
and you are?

would the Tzemach Tzedek have rather had nobody to carry on he name? Face it Kopust was no more after 1923. If not for the Rebbe Rashab it would be in the history books only, as hard as that is for you to swallow, them's the facts.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Mottel said...

-Chaim: Honestly, what do you know about Kapust and Babroisk to comment?

Which sefer from Kapust convinced you of this? Was it the Magen Avos?

And if you want to claim that the Tzemach Tzedek would have preferred the derech of the others over Lubavitch . . . Why would Kapust via Babroisk be preferred over Retzitza? What about Liadi or Nezhyn?

Do me a favor and don't waste our time with your drivel.

Chaim said...

Wow.
Nice folks we have here.
Mottel, on Bens blog you come across as decent an open minded.Here you come across.....Angry and arrogant.
Maybe amongst friends on a Lubavitcher blog you let your hair down?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Chaim

why do you find it necessary to steer the conversation onto a more "explosive" topic?

is it because you're so nice?

why do you expect more of others?

Mottel said...

-Ben: I am "decent an open minded" which was arrogant and incendiary statements like yours - said only to distract from the conversation - need to be done in with as quickly as possible.

Chaim said...

Hirshel,
Blog discussions meander, go from topic to topic.Previously the discussion where the Netziv who have belonged today,MO or Black Hat did not raise your ire.
Suddenly an innocent question puts you and your side kick on the "defensive"
Ask yourself why

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

no, Chaim'l. It wasn't "innocent" and it sure wasn't a question. Unless you call rhetorical ones "questions"

ask yourself why.

Anonymous said...

S/Yerachmiel/Evanston
I saw over shabos in the sefer hazichronois of Reb Tzodak Ois alef Ois 12(har berocha print)that he sar a letter in manuscript from their head that started this Tzoraas in the German countries in a earlier genaration,he was a cause of pride for the poeople that cling to him,he writes in that letter to one of his friends in Poland, that he should write a
Sefer on the name of the Ramban al Hatorah, and he should insert his views according to his wishes.Thru that he will get a grip on the Masses towards his views.Reb Tzodak finishes it off, by adding that it did not work out and he converted to Christianity.
Did u people ever heard about the letter? who was his buddy in Poland?

S. said...

Sounds like it's talking about R. Yisrael Samoscz, but I have to see the letter.