Friday, February 18, 2011

די "גרויסע" חתונה that wasn't



A clipping from last week's "Der Blatt" newspaper, published by the "Aron" faction of Satmar, where they bring a picture and ask you to solve the puzzle. I think I know who the current picture is from as well, but let's focus on the picture at the bottom of the page, the one that they describe here, very nicely, if I may say so myself. We brought that picture a while ago and discussed the wedding a bit then as well.


146 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oi Vey
he has no Rezhvolka, the Gehinom is not big enough for this mega sin

Anonymous said...

Hershel can please you explain the Gra comment of אולי כרמב"ן

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what about his father's sin of no peltz?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

RC"V said it about his Rebbe, the גר"א

vidal said...

Who said he has no "peltz".Peltz is worn on a coat.The brother is wearing a coat.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

THE BROTHER, NOT HIM

vidal said...

"THE BROTHER, NOT HIM"
Therefore?
My point was that maybe the Rachmastrivker, Israel, did wear peltz and that Peltz is worn on a coat AND as you can see in the pic he is not wearing a coat,but his brother is.
Sheesh!

52 street said...

This Twersky screwed himself over nicely.
Had he remained in Rachmastrivk he would be current rebbe,instead he has a kindergarten style job in the silly,Meshichist "Oholei Tayreh".
With his "Peylishe" garb he sticks out like a sore thumb in the Lubovitch world of wild beards,brown shoes, jeans and no peyos(chas vesholom).
Had the Lubavitcher more seychel they would have told him to remain an inside Lubovitcher agent in Rachmastrivk,eventually delivering the wholechasidehs to the clutches of Lubavitch

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

52nd

he's the younger brother....

52 street said...

Hirshel,
Are you sure?
I thought he was supposed to take over from his dad
If you are right it may explain this strange move

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

yes, I'm sure.

maybe he just wasn't interested in that world? ever think of that?

it's not all that it seems...

52 street said...

"maybe he just wasn't interested in that world? ever think of that?"

I can't understand anyone with a trop seichel becoming Lubavitch.Really.Of course maybe I"m missing something as I"m not Lubavitch but I"m very familiar with Lubavitch, their toireh,their history etc.
I felt this way years back, before the Rebbe passed away.Unfortunately this has been validated since the passing with so many strange and crazy things happening.
The various guys in yeshivas that I knew that became Lubavitch were all with problems, social,familial and unfortunately mental, besides for a number of boys from Lubavitch backrounds that were still going to regular yeshivas.This was before the real friction with Chabd started
.One fellow,from Australia, who had gone to the Yeshiva College of Lubavitch was undecided whether to go to 770 or Lakewood until his brother prevailed on the 770 side (the last point was to show that when we were in yeshiva it was actually shayach that a boy with Lubavitch backround would have a sufek between Lakewood and 770)

arthur said...

52 i wonder how normal you are

Anon3 said...

" arthur said...
52 i wonder how normal you are"
Well said but someone is trying to cash in my "fame".

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
"what about his father's sin of no peltz?"
Rachmistrivke in Yerushaliem was not in to Skverer mode of nepotism Mubarak style regime, that the whole Bais Horav is royal, the BP Rachmistrivker was still in Skvere at the time of this chasuna,Thats why he wore he wore that fur coat. Most of Reb Mottel brothers were not Rebish at all, one of them was a electrician. Even Reb Mottel wasn't geared for the Rebisteve stuff, He wore on weekdays a short raincoat,after the Tisch he was learning with his chavrussa deutsch Z"L (Reb chaim shulems brother) in Spinker Beis Hamedrash, as if no tish happened before, this people cant get it.
The world will never see this kind of people again, even the Chasidic Mashpiem that are not from Rebishe stem, also need some shtick to stand out.
Chaval al Deovdin...

Anonymous said...

52nd Street
"Had he remained in Rachmastrivk he would be current rebbe,instead he has a kindergarten style job in the silly,Meshichist "Oholei Tayreh"."
I guess that Reb Nachman Yossef is much above and beyond then you small egoistical mind, He does believe that his soul was not send down to build himself a fiefdom,A magid shiur is just fine with him, he learns Toras Hashem with yisidhe kinder. You are too fargrebt to understand such Musugim.

Anonymous said...

52nd
"I knew that became Lubavitch were all with problems, social,familial and unfortunately mental,"
you are so correct, Chasidus was not made for the upstuck, perfect,nice,choshev,
in the early days of chasidus a kid from a nice home was made in to "Blotte" till he was accepted in the circle. Reb Elimelech had to rebuke and scold the Ropshitzer that was from a family of 10 generations Rabonim, He was crying his heart out till his acceptance. The Alte Rebbe, said I will have to knock out the Epstein(prestigious Russian Jewish family) from Reb Eizel, you are not getting the Alef Bies from the zach, so bug off.

52 street said...

Anon
Thanks for bringing up history from 200 years ago.
What has it got to do with today??
Typical troll

Anonymous said...

52 street
whatever is not in that category that I wrote is just comunity building with rebbes in colorfull female clothing making friday night gathering and posing for Kol Heolam Kolio, Shuki Lerer. then you are 100% correct Lubavich is not classy.And yiden like reb Nachman Yossef do not want to belong to that classy crowd, he wants to belong to the Nemuchie Ruach and the Shevorie Lev.

Anonymous said...

tres interessant, merci

russian chusid said...

52 nd
I am not a big fan of Lubavitch the way it is now either, but a person has to do whats he considers the best for his Avoidas Hashem. If Twersky thought that Lubavitch is it, then it does not matter which shteller he has.

wondering said...

did not one or maybe even two of ny's kids revert back, and marry into, the rebbish fold?

52 street said...

"I am not a big fan of Lubavitch the way it is now either, but a person has to do whats he considers the best for his Avoidas Hashem. If Twersky thought that Lubavitch is it, then it does not matter which shteller he has."

I agree,but.....
Lubavitch is out there with a big p.r machine trying to chap people by selling them a bridge.....
Older more mature people saw then what we see now,how low Lubavitch has fallen.
Same thingwas the issue with Mendel Vechter,he went after young boys,against the parents wishes and sold them the new Lubavitch line.How many of these boys would Vechter chap,if they were more mature a bit more knowledgeable??
This undergroung Lubavitch movement is a big reason Lubavitch has had big problems with other communities

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

52nd

misht nisht arayn Vechter aher

NYT was not gechapped

52 street said...

Hirshel,
Stop trying to bully me to keep quiet about the Vechter saga.

I don't know the details of how Twersky became "enamored" with Lubavitch, but if it it followed the classic patern he had someone do major "mindwork" on him.What makes him leave "artso,moledetecho imbeis uvicho" to leave Yerusholayim for a ghetto?
Btw,I also tasted the famous Lubavith mind games when I was "convinced " to see Segal,from Tzemach Tzedek, when I was a bocher in EY

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

don't call me a bully

you don't know the details, but you SURE are assuming a lot here....

52 street said...

"you don't know the details, but you SURE are assuming a lot here...."

The scenario of a young bocher being worked on is the classic Lubavitch scenario.
Same thing happened in many Yeshivos.Lubavitch had and still has a network of underground Tanya shiurim
Many of the current Lubavitchers were chapped by mashpiim, so it's not assuming very much.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

but you're assuming that this is what happened here.

do you know NY's history? where he learned? what age he was? who "worked" on him?

52 street said...

I know for a fact, based on yeshivos I personally attended and based on what I heard from people of underground Tanya shiurim,against the very clear wishes of the hanholas hayeshiva.Satmar,Gateshead,Slabodka bnei brak,Kol Torah of R'Shlomo Zalman Auerbach,Lakewood.

Stop being dishonest

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

we're talking about a specific case here, not run-of-the-mill kids from those Yeshivos. Right? they're just a bunch of nebs anyway (the ones that they "chap," anybody with half a brain sees right through it, right?)

You can't have it both or all three ways. Either only the nebs buy into Lubavitch, or they're extremely deceptive and liars.

52 street said...

"but you're assuming that this is what happened here."
Yes,I"m assuming.
I don't know where he learned, though I"ll assume he learned in Rachmastrivk Yerushlayim by his father, rosh hayeshiva (i believe)and he did this while still a chasidishe bochur, so he must've been young.His father was not very happy to say the least.

If you want to tell us your version go right ahead...

52 street said...

"You can't have it both or all three ways. Either only the nebs buy into Lubavitch, or they're extremely deceptive and liars."

My experience has been that naive and/or problematic boys have been the ones Lubavitch have succesfully convinced to join their ranks.

I off course do not know everybody.

But, with your permission, how do you explain a significant percentage of Lubavitch being Meshichisten and saying Yechi??
Naive and/or problematic,right??
It's no surprise,at least for me, that many of the Meshichist leaders became Lubavitchers as opposed to growing up in Lubavitch.
So this way I see the scenario :
Naive boy is brainwashed to leave family,friends to Lubavitch (yes!many families were torn apart by this)the same naive boy is sold a bill of goods to become a Meshichist.
Pretty simple

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

1st it was Lubavitch, now it's Meshichism...

tell me: they allow all these naive and simple-minded boys into these great Yeshivos??

52 street said...

"1st it was Lubavitch, now it's Meshichism..."

Hirshel,
You know that my point was that the Meshichist theology that you oppose is quiet crazy.Being that their numbers in Lubavitch are very significant,I "assumed" that you explained it away by saying they are merely "naive".If so it explains why somany of the mekurovim became "Meshichist"

Now I know that "assuming" you oppose the Meshichisten is a bit of an assumption on my part, since it is quite clear that many of the Anti Meshichist oppose them based on strategic not theological grounds being bad for fundraiding, bad p.r and the like.
I mean R'Yoel Kahn, one of the most reviled figures by the Meshichists because of his anti Meshichist stance, has written articles in Kfar Chabad Magazine still claiming that every chosid should believe that The Rebbe is indeed Moshiach

52 street said...

"tell me: they allow all these naive and simple-minded boys into these great Yeshivos??"

Naive does not automatically mean low intelligence.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

52nd

it's hard enough to follow you on one subject, you expect me to follow all your tangents on three subjects?!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so is it safe to assume - now that we're assuming lots of other things - that many of the naive ones are today's Roshei Yeshivah and Rabbonim? or do they all go to Lubavitch?

52 street said...

Hirshel,
It's not hard to follow.Unless you have difficulty with simple English.Do you?.

You are just pulling a cop-out.

Why not tell us how Twersky discovered the radical truth that made him leave Yerusholayim ihr hakoidesh and his father and grandfather the Rachmastrivker Rebbe to live in Detroit (?) and than a ghetto?
Must've been very compelling!

52 street said...

If not that take a stab at explaining why so many Lubavitchers are Meshichisten??

Or maybe there is nothing to explain, because you agree with this ??


If you don't address these issues I"ll have to "assume" (again!)that you are not so comfortable and that your cyniscm/claims of going-off-on tangents are just attempts at blowing this off?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why not start a bit earlier, OK?

what prompted tens of Chernobler kinder and eyniklach to leave their holy fathers and zeides and become writers and doctors and lawyers?

דאס פארשטייסטו יא??

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I never said I knew his history as far as Lubavitch is concerned, but his zeide's hoyf was not bleachers with 1000s of chassidim, like you seem to imagine.

Maybe it was borrrring.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

why Lubavitchers are Meshichisten? very simple

They like their Rebbe - and their Rebbe only, and they have a more simple idea of what Moshiach is, thanks in great part to the 7th Rebbe of Chabad

1+1=2

52 street said...

Actually about Rachmastrivk:
I attended the tisch there years ago by his grandfather.It was beautiful,especially when they sang the Karliner "Koh echsif noyem shabbes" .It was well attended, especially in light of Rachmastrivk having their own yeshiva.So though there were no thousands of chasidim,Rachmastrivk had nothing to be ashamed of. Btw, leaving as chassidus because it's "borring"??What is that?I assure you that Geula on shabbos and during the week is much more exciting than the ghetto he lives in now.I loved Geula!

52 street said...

"why Lubavitchers are Meshichisten? very simple

They like their Rebbe - and their Rebbe only, and they have a more simple idea of what Moshiach is, thanks in great part to the 7th Rebbe of Chabad

1+1=2"

I assume you are joking.Actually, hopefully you are just kidding.
If not, you have unwittingly proven my point of why certain people join Chabad

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I assume the Maspiyim gave up on you very quickly when they say the sharfe boocher'l they were dealing with, ah?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

maybe what was exciting for you - an American boy - was not exciting for him...

52 street said...

Was that a put-down?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't know, what do you think?

why is it OK to put down everybody else but not you?

52 street said...

"maybe what was exciting for you - an American boy - was not exciting for him..."

Could be.

But let me ask you something.According to your theory that he found Rachmatrivk "borrring" this has nothing to do with,Tanya,Rebbe, Chasides.Just a young kid becoming restless?
Ok.
May explain why some" normal" guys may have become became Chabad."It's exciting"!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

maybe it was the fact that a Chabad house was the only place he was accepted? Maybe it was the shliach that emptied out his fridge for him whenever he so pleased?

Just think of it this way?

Does the fact that many of those who become frum (not Lubavitch, just frum) are a bit "barirt" make you wonder about your Yiddishkeit? after all, which normal guy would choose this lifestyle over being a normal goy or frei Yid???

52 street said...

"why is it OK to put down everybody else but not you?"

Ok
But when you don't address the issues and instead try a one liner it just "appears" that you don't have a good answer.
I mean your answer as to why Lubavitchers are Meshichisten appears to prove that

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

my answer about Meshichisten is because it's been part of Lubavitch for a while now, which means lots of people don't just "drop it" just like they don't drop the rest of Yidishkeit/Chasidishe Minhogim

52 street said...

"Does the fact that many of those who become frum (not Lubavitch, just frum) are a bit "barirt" make you wonder about your Yiddishkeit? after all, which normal guy would choose this lifestyle over being a normal goy or frei Yid???"

Good question.
To be honest certain elements do make me feel uncomfortable.Baaley Teshuva who show signs of mental issues for sure.Certain elements in Breslov .Right wing fanatics who want to "hargeh all the arabber".
Yes,I do soul searching about this.Generally the way I see Yiddishkait would not attract these elements at all.My Yiddishkait is a warm,loving but rational and intellectual Yiddishkait, which does not need to resort to hero worship, or hold onto to deceased leaders

Saul said...

The whole chasidic movemebt is bankrupt not only Chabad.Look at all the succession fights in too many places to mention.Nepotism and $$ are not a good mix.
Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach was the last remaining Chasidic leader with the real chasidic flavor.Accepting everyone,seeing the light in every person and a master of Jewish soul music.How I miss him!

JJJ said...

"Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach was the last remaining Chasidic leader with the real chasidic flavor"

No wonder the whole chasidic movement is bankrupt

Anonymous said...

http://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=22184

Rebbe with the Pnei Menachem

Anon3 said...

"Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach was the last remaining Chasidic leader with the real chasidic flavor.Accepting everyone,seeing the light in every person and a master of Jewish soul music.How I miss him"
I don't like to dance on the graves of the departed BUT .Yes shlomo Was in a sense the Bob Dylan of the Jewish world.He was a spin Meister of "Chassidic" song and tale but a "Chassidic leader"????My eye!!!His "Chassidic" escapades were rife during his lifetime and are to lurid (to put it mildly) to be written about on this blog site or any other family blog for that matter.Yes he was anointed with "sainthood" after his death but as usual we tend to overlook ones human frailty's upon his/her demise.For the seekers of truth it's all out there with all the "gory"details.For more specifics they were written up in Lilith magazine. In which issue I fail to remember.You can google it.
And this from someone who was/is very close to the Carlebach family.Enough said.(Maybe to much).

russian chusid said...

52ND

He became a Lubavitcher learning in Rizhiner Yeshiva together with another 2 bochurim. All 3 meant it serious, even though the scenario was the same you had explained.

Anonymous said...

what do u mean, jj?

chanoch said...

Why this whole discussion about this Twrsky? Is he running for president?
Does anyone really care if he chose Chabad or any other religion?
Genneg geveyzen

Anon3 said...

Hirshel
I didn't realize that you you are a Carlebacher Chusid.Is this a new feather in your cap?
Is that why you blocked my comment about Reb Shlomo but allow all the shmutz against the Rebbe and Lubavitch?For shame.

Anonymous said...

52nd
The Bies Yisroel was famous for chaping bucherim, from all kind of yeshivahs. did he ever get a 40 year old to change to GER? it is no secret that a bocher is the right person to change to a different chassidus, Not too many Yungeliet are Mavakshim, anymore they have the Rechaim al Tzavoriem,
what is all you ranting over here, there is no question that excitement helps for a bocher, if not, then the Old Faltichaner and the old Skolier would have the 1000,s of chasidim and not the tzadik hador of Bobov and not even reb Yoelish of Satmar.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
"You know that my point was that the Meshichist theology that you oppose is quiet crazy"
why is it more crazy then all other Emunois Tefielois, it has more sources then Chaping Sheriem..... I don't care that it was done for years, but a Meshugaz is still a Meshugaz.I saw lately that the Satmar Ruv (the famous sipurim denier)said that the Yismach Moshe came home after his Histalkus for Kidush every friday night.You can say that the Yismach Moshe is different he was the REAL TZADIK, and the Lubavicher believes that his Rebbe will be the Moshiach.

Anonymous said...

52nd
I am not Reb Nachmen Yossef spokesman, but I will tell you 1 simple reason why he went to Chabad, He knew he is a einikel of the Meor Einiem and he is the Rebbe of the family,
One night he started to learn the sefer, and had some questions,so he asked his father, his father said I don't know, he went to Ziede he didn't know either, he went to Reb Chaim Hersh Eizenbach, he didn't know either,he asked his brother (today the tzadik Hador), he didn't know either,and the Avtohom Slonim .... As he was walking on the street he heard chasidim farbrenging, and he walked in to a semi lit Bies Hamedrash,and he saw Reb Shloma Chaim, between the songs and the talking he approached reb Shloma Chaim and asked him the biur in the Meor Einiem, his mind lit up on the beautiful biur, and screamed now I know what chasidus of the Ziede is all about, but I will have to go Chabad. The well from where this people are drinking, obviously he did not care he will see their Zalman the Shikur and Charlie with the overalls.

Anonymous said...

52nd
"Same thingwas the issue with Mendel Vechter,he went after young boys,against the parents wishes"
was Mendel Vechter also a bocher whe he came to lubavich? or he was married with a family of kids, his father a Ruv and FIL from the biggest chashuvim by the Ball Veyoel Moshe? with the finest yeshiva in Willi?
no Nebach in your culture,

berl, crown heights said...

I don't understand what this whole commotion is about – what's the problem with this recruitment effort by Chabad? Is this a violation of some halachah to invite a bochur (especially a post bar mitzvah bachur) to learn in another yeshivah? This decision al pi din doesn't belong to his father – it is up to the bochur to decide what is the מקום שליבו חופץ!

Also, with this attitude, NONE of the Rebbes would have chasidim AT ALL – they all at some point went 'recruiting' young souls from other places.

Last but not least, who is stopping anyone from doing the same in Chabad Yeshiveis? I know and you all know the answer to this question – no one! The problem is – you have nothing 'to sell'. Un do ligt ger hunt bagroben...

Anon3 said...

"Is that why you blocked my comment about Reb Shlomo but allow all the shmutz against the Rebbe and Lubavitch?For shame"
I apologize for my above gaff.Apparently I failed to notice that you had posted my comment.Zatz moichel.

yechiel said...

"Last but not least, who is stopping anyone from doing the same in Chabad Yeshiveis? I know and you all know the answer to this question – no one! The problem is – you have nothing 'to sell'. Un do ligt ger hunt bagroben..."

So, you"d allow one of the popular new non Lubavitcher mashpiim to start a shiur in Sefas Emes and schlep boys to Ger?
Would you allow R'Shalom Harush to schlep boys to Breslov?
Would you allow Talmidei Rav Kuk to schlepp boys to Mercaz Harav??


Don't think soo.

Anonymous said...

yechiel
You are so ignorant,
did you ever read Arush?
did you ever learn a piece of Tanya, or Derch Mitzvosechoi,
Arush is nice Babe yachne sefer, very good for women, does not have no relationship with some of reb nachmans torah.
It is like the touchy feely books that you see in the book store by artscroll, it is very good and important,
Your question should be the other way. How about someone will walk in to Ponevizh(in its hey days) and start a Shiur Tehilim with Metzudas, instad of the Shiurim and the Ried, what will Povarsky do?

tzibaleh said...

yechiel, i have news for you.
I know of at least 2 groups of gerrer mvakshim who are learning chassidus chabad. 1 here & 1 in eretz hakodesh. i wonder why they're not satisfied with sfas emes. i wonder.

bpunbound said...

yes, yes, by all means, let's get a likutei maran shiur going in 770.... i believe charlie buttons will attend...IF dinner is served

Anonymous said...

In Uman on Rosh Hasahana its full of Chabadskers with a fully fledged Beis Chabad In Mezbiz on Shavouth its full of them as well including Nachman yosef Twerski. Anyway I dont think in good old 80's there whould have been any remote Chabadzkere looking for some spirituallty outside 770.

yechiel said...

Tzibaleh
Strange comment from you.
I don't doubt that Gerer mevakshim study Tanya but your comment about being "satisfied" by Sefas Emes is shocking in it's shallowness.If someone learned one Masichta, Brochos for example, should they be "satisfied" or continue studying?
Sefas Emes and Tanya are different facets of "mem tess poinim latorah".
Do you think there is no Torah besides CHABAD?
I guess you do.

yechiel said...

BPunbound,
Your comment about Likutei Mohoran shows a lot about Chabad and their lack of intellectual curiosity

Anonymous said...

Anon 12.35
you invented the sputnik, chabad without a rebbe is not the same as with a rebbe, amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

if i may speak for Tzibaleh;

I think what he means is that the way that SA is taught in Ger is similar to how tanya is taught in other Kreizen, which, sorry to say, is quite shallow, focusing on the easier parts and avoiding the more difficult ones. That leads them to ask questions - questions that often get answered only in Chabad

He wasn't Chas Vesholem trying to put down the Sfas Emes

Anonymous said...

Tzibaleh
"yechiel, i have news for you.
I know of at least 2 groups of gerrer mvakshim who are learning chassidus chabad. 1 here & 1 in eretz hakodesh."
its is much more then 2, it is big crowds, and the Gerrer Rebbe has noting against it.

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"Your comment about Likutei Mohoran shows a lot about Chabad and their lack of intellectual curiosity"
I don't think that if someone in Brisk, is not interested in a Ungarischer/Galitzaner pilpul, is lack of curiosity,
could be Reb Nachmen is deep, but nobody in Breslov can decipher it, no Kramer no Cheshin no Kenig etc... maybe they are getting it thru the higher spheres , but they can not deliver it for the masses.If you are brought up in a environment that chassidus has to be understood, and it his a limud as Nigleh, then you have to explain it.

Anonymous said...

Hirshel
"I think what he means is that the way that SA is taught in Ger is similar to how tanya is taught in other Kreizen, which, sorry to say, is quite shallow"
I heard reb Gudels CDS on Sefas Emes, it is geschmak, he has gut vertlech, but no Havona of the Text. In a nigleh shiur he reminds me of Reb Moshe Zobermans Shiurim on Daf Hayomi, it is everything but the Daf.

yechiel said...

Tzig,
I did not understand Tzibaleh as putting down Sefas Emes.
I think he did not mean.what you are try to put into his words,which,btw, are themselves stunning in their hubris.Are you trying to say that Gerer do not understand Sefas Emes and they NEED Lubavitcher to explain it to them???
Yeah, I know, that's the party line in Lubavitch....

What Tzibbaleh really meant is that IF someone would be very partisan as they generally are in Lubavitch they ought to feel satisfied learning ONLY their rebbies teachings.That is what Lubavitch believe.Quite an anti intellectual stance, to say the least.The newsflash for Lubavitchers is that people who want to know kol hatoireh kilo, as the chiyuv is expounded on in Shulchan Oruch Harav, know that they need to learn everything,besides the "mekol melamdai hiskalti".

yechiel said...

Anonymous 1:05,same anonymous
all the time,
You live in a strange world, where only you and you fellow Lubavitchers "understand" and everyone else needs to come to you for explanations.
You are quite wacky, but entertaining at the same time.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what's with the "hubris?" is that some sort of new word you use when knocking Lubavitch?!

It's very simple;

if you don't learn you don't know

how much time does the average Gerrer spend on Sfas Emes? Reb Yoel Kahan sayd that without learning Likkutei Torah iz ummeglich tzu kennen Sfas Emes

that's not a putdown, just the facts, ma'am

yechiel said...

"how much time does the average Gerrer spend on Sfas Emes?"


Don't know.
Mevakshim are not the average "anything"



" Reb Yoel Kahan sayd that without learning Likkutei Torah iz ummeglich tzu kennen Sfas Emes"


And what would you expect from a Lubavitcher to say???

The same fellow has gone back and forth about whether the Rebbe is or is not.
One can surely get a basic understanding without Lekutei Torah,but why would one not learn Lekutei Torah?Do you think that in other Kreizen Lekutei Torah is not learned??

When a community starts sitting on their laurels without cross-pollination the decay starts building up.Nepotism and theological Nepotism breads mediocrity and worse.Seeing a young fellow under 40 just being elected in CH as rabbi for life shows that mediocrity is king in Lubavitch.

yechiel said...

"It's very simple;

if you don't learn you don't know"

Just curious how you expect in serious scholarship in Chabad if post marriage study in kolel is almost non existent, besides for a cursory year or two for rabbis????

yechiel said...

"just the facts, ma'am"

The facts, ma'am, are that the average shliach has problems reading Hebrew.Are these paradigms of knowledge to be expected to know in depth Chassiduth?
Nice joke

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

every yungerman learns in kolel for a year or two, check your facts, please.

tell me, how do you expect serious scholarship in Satmar, Vizhnitz, Skver if they get married at 18? They become Talmidiei Chachomim AFTER marriage??

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the average shliach is not the one who teaches the sfas emes to Gerrer Mevakshim, but you knew that, Mr. Hubris

but it was nice of you to try that...

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"You live in a strange world, where only you and you fellow Lubavitchers "understand" and everyone else needs to come to you for explanations."
by saying lubavich is strange, wacky, you will get very far,you will curse and curse till your book will run ot of curses, as the posters on this site know, but if you want to present me a sefer that explains sefas emes good or a good shiur, I am ready to go there or but that sefer.Stop with name calling,

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

COL takes from circus Tent and gives no credit

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"What Tzibbaleh really meant is that IF someone would be very partisan as they generally are in Lubavitch"
before we go further, is Lubavich more partisan then Belz,Skver,Bobov Reb Ovadia,Yeted Nemaan,Eida Hacharidith, silbermanim etc....

yechiel said...

" Reb Yoel Kahan sayd that without learning Likkutei Torah iz ummeglich tzu kennen Sfas Emes"

R'Tzig,
Help me understand your logic,k?
Why did you bring a proof from R'Yoel Kahn to strengthen your point .Obviously, his opinion does not carry the weight it carries by you.How did you think you"d convince me by saying "oh,r'yoel kahan said so".Obviously, for you as a non meshichist lubavitcher r'yoels opinion is a mike tyson KO,but not for others,ya know??

Don't they teach basic reasoning in Lubavitch?? (maybe the non lubavitch yeshivos you attended are actually to blame??)
Let me help you out a bit here:If you want to debate intelligentally, not just to come back to your local Lubav shtiebel(sorry,Chabad House) and say "i aced a snag today", you should use a term called "uleshitoscho".Try and bring proof from someone that I would maybe agree is unbiased .For example had you said "R'Pinchas Menachem said you cannot understand Sefas Emmes without attending you local shaliachs lekutei torah shiur" you may have actually proven your point.
Think about this it may come handy in life

Anonymous said...

Yechiel,
".The newsflash for Lubavitchers is that people who want to know kol hatoireh kilo, as the chiyuv is expounded on in Shulchan Oruch Harav,"
that why the Lubavicher established the program of Limud haRambam, if you hold the Alter Rebbes pesak as dear as you say, then you have 2 options , Learn Kol haTorah Kilo Kipshetoi as the Ragachover or the Gra, or learn Rambam

yechiel said...

Anonmous 2:07
Absoloutely yes!!
I mean you guys cannot accept anyone besides your rebbe as moshiach, even after gimmel tammuz!

yechiel said...

"tell me, how do you expect serious scholarship in Satmar, Vizhnitz, Skver if they get married at 18? They become Talmidiei Chachomim AFTER marriage??"

Uhuh
How did you guess???

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"Seeing a young fellow under 40 just being elected in CH as rabbi for life shows that mediocrity is king in Lubavitch."
how old was schneur kotler when he was plucked of artzieni hakedosha, How old was the Belzer, ot the Skvere,
is that nepotisim? or what?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I see, yechiel

so I guess you have the message to all those who told me over the years what this Gadol and that Gadol said about Lubavitch, right? and what the Satmar Rov said about Tziyonus, right? all that should be erased from my memory, huh?

I think Reb Yoel is a good enough example.

לשיטתך or not

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
your whole Derasha makes no sense, here,

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

* you have the same message

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"The facts, ma'am, are that the average shliach has problems reading Hebrew."
how does he read the sichos?

yechiel said...

"so I guess you have the message to all those who told me over the years what this Gadol and that Gadol said about Lubavitch, right? and what the Satmar Rov said about Tziyonus, right? all that should be erased from my memory, huh?"

R'Tzig leyben,
Uhuh,
What those choshuve rabbonim said carries weight only by people who respect what they said.Therefore is a Satmarchusid used R'Yoel to butress his point with a Lubav he is wasting his breath.What he needs to do is show him letters from Rashab,kapish??

For example, when Lubavitch wanted their man to be ruv in Bnei Brak, the claimed "yerisheh!!!" if one would argue with them for example why they needed their man in Tzfas to be rabbi against a "yoiresh" you would just need to use their own words "yerisheh, hayituchen???"

yechiel said...

"how does he read the sichos?"

Heard of "Sichos in English"??

Anyway, if he is a Meshichist he just needs to know "bais rabeini sheh bebovel"

yechiel said...

What did you mean by this line

"די "גרויסע" חתונה that wasn't"

What was not???

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The Rashab's letters only go so far. The main thrust is the holy, irrefutable VeYoel Moshe. kapish?

Only a Satmarer, who has no knowledge of the person behind the letters, and ignores everything else he said, would use the Rashab in 1902 to argue a 2011 fact. Every other Gadol realized that the facts on the ground changed, and sticking your head in the sand chokes you to death eventually.

yechiel said...

Lately I've seen a whole new crop of Lubavitcher Baaley teshiva themselves becoming shluchim.They can relate much better to other freih yidden, the only problem is that this new crop is so much more ignorant than the old crop, that they set a new low for "rabbi"
I don't know, maybe the positive overrides the negative here.The problem with Chabad is that "choishech and ohr" are mixed up

yechiel said...

"Every other Gadol realized that the facts on the ground changed, and sticking your head in the sand chokes you to death eventually"

"Uleshitoscho"
How come 17 years after you still have a "Nosi Hador"??

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

what was not?!

the hundreds of Rebbes, the hundreds of Chassidim of two Rebbes, that would've happened had he stayed.

You know.

yechiel said...

Oh, ok i get it

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

16.5, not 17

yechiel said...

"16.5, not 17"

Chof zoyin will be 19

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

WADR

even you should not count from 27 Adar

do we count the Lev Simcha from 5745?

or the SR from 1969?

yechiel said...

Nosi Hador is quite different

yechiel said...

Anyway,
Why not explain how you still have a Nosi Hador after gimmel Tammuz??

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch is going through at the moment a tough identity crisis. After gimel Tammuz, instead of some responsible leadership to come out publicly and tell the masses: OK we really thought that the rebbe is Moshicah but sorry folks we screwed up and the joke is over. No, they all made cartwheels why he is/could/would Moshiach so now you walk in 770 you feel as if you have walked in a Mental institution with yechi banners all over the place. Where are all the ovedim of Lubavivtch? Its one big mess at the moment.

yechiel said...

R'Tzig
I see no attempt at explaining this unheard of phenomemno of a deceased Nosi Hador.
All the big "denkers&kenners" in Lubavitch seem to use this term.Gopin,Tuvya, etc etc,
Maybe it's my chisaron of not learning enough from Lubavitchers of course, Lekutei Toireh, or the Yerushalmy about Shimshon.
One small thing though:Being a Yid, do I also get a say in who the Nosi Hador is (or if such a musag EVEN exists).

Thank you and have a nice day.
Got to work a bit to

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

different than tzaddik hador or Gadol hador or Manhig Hador?

gotta work a bit too

tzibaleh said...

sorry was out all day.
Thanks Hirshel for watching my back:)

I ch"v did not mean to dis the haylige Sfas emes.
all i meant to say is that without chassidus chabad it's quite difficult to understand SE.
I have gerrer family & i know i can ask them pshat in a SE & for the life of them they will not be able to explain it.
As one who learned some likutei torah, i can see in many a sfas emes, inyunim that are discussed at length in LT.
& R' Yoel's comment is 100% valid as far as a grube ying like myself is concerned. but You yechiel tayere, i'm sure you can learn the most difficult SE and know it all at a glance.

Anonymous said...

Tzig,

This is not the first time that COL or Shturem took from you without conveying d'vorim b'shem omrom...

It seems like, despite all your defending Chabad, they still are embarrassed of you. Wonder why.

As for Rachmistrivke, though they are a fine eydeler lot, it is well known that the Rachmistrivker in BP is not a well person & on heavy antidepressants, & kam has a minyen in his shtibl.... Not that there's anything wrong with that (Belzer Rebbe yochiach...), but it still shows that hereditary rabisteve has its problem (not to mention the nepotism involved...)

& heilike Reb Yochanon of Israel is takeh a gevald.....

Sho'oh Toyvoh (or was it Mishpochah?) had an article a year or 2 ago (in their "brothers" issue) about the beautiful dynamic of the Rachmistrivke brothers, which continues now with Reb Yochanon & his uncle.

I think Lelov of Beit Shemesh & his 2 brothers is a bit on this brotherly track too. (The mashpiah Reb Meilech & his older brother of BP seem to have this going too.)

As for so-called Chagas Rebishe eyniklach defecting to Chabad -- this is not new. There are the Halbershtam brothers (Chaim Boruch & Chese"d), who are Tzanzer eyniklach. There is also Reb Yisroel Friedman, R"Y of Oholei Torah & his brother in Kfar Chabad (Meir), who I think are Rizhiner eyniklach. There are the Gurarys, who are Kapitchnizer eyniklach (which makes them Apter eyniklach too), though that is more a matter of a "mixed marriage."

As for Reb Nachmen Twerski himself, well there has been several articles in Kfar Chabad &/or Beis Moshiach about how he came to Lubav. There are also stories of inyonim/answers that the Lubavitcher Rebbe told him even as a bochur. One, I think, has to do with going to sleep listening to tapes of farbrengens, or falling asleep reading Likutei Torah... 1 of the answers was sharp (something like "Vos shlepstu mir untern koldre.")

Hanal is from spotty memory, so bli achrayos klal uklal...

One more thing, in defense of these Rebisher defectors to Chabad: they will tell you that better a zonov l'aroyos than a rosh l'shu'olim, vd"l.

-- ZIY

Anonymous said...

Lubavitch always throws around the intellectual honesty as the reason so many bochrim turn to Chabad.

Did the Rebbe ever tell anyone unsatisfied with chassidus chabad to go elsewhere like the Toldos Ahron Rebbe told Rav Y. Farkash?

No, because it was always about an image that like communist Russia, to brainwash that if you leave Chabad , the only way is down.

90% of shluchim can read a Tanya no better than a Gerrer yeshivah ketana bachur reads a Sfas Emes, because he also lacks the yediyes behind it.

Did you ever think that Chbad offers unconditional love, until you are hooked in.

I can give the names of over 20 Baalei Teshuva who told me how they were told about this torah's chabad, the love for every yid and how much attention they got and were told how wonderful they were, until they had cut themselves off from their previous life (family, friends etc...) only to find it was a different story once you are on the inside.

The only reason no Lubavitchers learn sfas emes properly is the same reason they dont learn Tanya properly....too hard....

The only reason Gerrers don't have Tanya shiurim in Crown Heights is that people raised in Chabad will never be able to conduct their lives live the Gerrer takanos because once raised in Chabad where Men and Women mix, talk and socialise without a problem....they will never be able to reach the Gerrer standard....

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

if anybody's embarrassed it's me of COL/Live, not them of me.... It's stam geneyvah, gornisht with embarrassment ------

Gurary is a simple example. And the Friedmans are eyniklach generations before, not recent.

Anonymous said...

Tzig,

I may have confused Rachmistrivke of BP with Amshinover of BP. If I am wrong, please delete that part re anti-depressant. Do'nt want to be motzi shem ra on a good Jew.

Unless you know that I am correct.

Sorry.

--ZIY

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"Lately I've seen a whole new crop of Lubavitcher Baaley teshiva themselves becoming shluchim"
are you paid by the shluchim office to report for them?
also why should chabad have a chasidic yungerman become shvach in Yiddishkiet, as you like to say, let the Baal teshuva do the dirty work
Kapish genius

Anonymous said...

yechiel
" mean you guys cannot accept anyone besides your rebbe as moshiach, even after gimmel tammuz!"



almost like Satmar, Chazon Ishniks and Briskers,

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"Why not explain how you still have a Nosi Hador after gimmel Tammuz??"

because the Zohar said and the Alter Rebbe and the Miteler rebbe emphasized alot on that zohar,that the Tzadik Ishtakech Behie Almo Yatir Mibachayoi, for translation look for some shaliach that only read Sichoth in English
Kaprendo?
"

Anonymous said...

Yechiel
"The problem with Chabad is that "choishech and ohr" are mixed up"
you are throwing statements,
what does that mean?
Shabos is not kept in Lubavich anymore? or people started eating Burger King? explain...

Anonymous said...

Tzibaleh
"but You yechiel tayere, i'm sure you can learn the most difficult SE and know it all at a glance."
if this idiot would be capable, he would be the most popular person in Ger,
the biggest mashpia, obviously 1 little promise, no place in his heart for Reb shaul.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
"it is well known that the Rachmistrivker in BP is not a well person & on heavy antidepressants"
what are you talking about ?

Anonymous said...

ZIY

is confusing his Peylishe Rebbes

typical Lubab

he meant the Amshinover of BP

Anonymous said...

Anon,

Duh, I just mentioned that.

-- ZIY

Anonymous said...

SEE THE FRIDIKER REBBES LETTER ABOUT HOW THE SFAS EMES TOLD HIM THAT YEDER VORT FUN LEKUTEI TORAH BLITZT UN SHEINT IT IN HIS IGRES

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Did the Rebbe ever tell anyone unsatisfied with chassidus chabad to go elsewhere like the Toldos Ahron Rebbe told Rav Y. Farkash?"
the Rebbe and all the Rebiem believed that Chabad has a belief system that every Jew has to believe in, and until then he is not the full Mamin, The Rebbe does not say that you are apikoras, since he is against the Brisker theory of Nebach apikores... it is not the discussion of today.
Officaly the alter Rebbe did not want to answer on Gashmius (or being your shrink)So now explain me, if a Yid comes to the Rebbe and said to him Chabad is not for me, what does that mean, that the Emuna in achdus hashem is not for me. What do you think is the responsibility of the Chabad Rebbe?
I will give you a simple example, Reb Yoelish was hung over his belief, that his 3 oaths are the principles in the Jewish faith, A yid would come over to him that he needs for his yiddishkiet and for his feelings, to become a Sereter Chosid, He will learn in Chinuch Atzmai, send his daughter to beis yakov that learns chumash and talk Hebrew, vote in the national elections, have a feeling for the creation of Israel.
I guarantee you that he will kick the hell out of him.

Anonymous said...

This just out:

New telegram of Rayyatz, urging Rabbi Jacobson to try to obtain visa to save the Imrei Emes from Warsaw at the beginning of WWII. See last page of kuntres. (I know it's form Shturem, but still...)

http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=48271

-- ZIY

Babad said...

מ'האט דא פארדרייט די יוצרות

ZIY,
I"m surprised at you because you seemed to be a knowledgeable fellow.
Anyway,the Rachmatrivkeh rebbe in BP has a new three four year old bes medresh on 45 st between 12 and New Utrecht a block down from the old one and it's big.He has a very nice following, close to a thousand people davening th
ere on Rosh Hashuna
He is a wonderful person,easy going and approachable .

It's unfortunate that ZIY,a guy who knows his stuff still suffers from the Lubav bug that cannot tell the difference between what they call "peylishe" (which are not peylishe usually).The reason is generally because Lubavs are not machshiv anyone besides "bais harav to givea rats mechila about the details

Anonymous said...

Babad,
after reading the Penai Menachems journals, the world saw how Ger looks on the outside world. I am imagining if we would find a diary from the Belzer Gabai Shulem Fogel,how little respect they had for any Rebbe. Stop bashing Chabad on that, The Lubavicher Rebbe had alot of respect for other Chasidim and the outmost respect for their Minhogim. The Reshab and generally Chasidie Chabad from the old school, had no respect for anything but Chabad, but the Rebbe was outstanding in that field.

Anonymous said...

You don't judge on respect of others by what is said between four walls and no one knows the context and/or the meaning of a glaychvertel; you judge that by *actions*! the fact is that the PM and many others participated with chabad in many of it's activities and functions; and in many cases out of respect of the Rebbe.

klainer said...

Anshei Chabad are well versed in throwing around terminology of Kabbalas Haari as found ,among other places ,in the writings of the Alter Rebbe.Does anyone know what Kabbalah is ? Even the "biggest" people? Maybe the Baal Hasulam and several yechidei segulah.Otherwise it's just repeating a formula.After a while it gets to be ridiculous.

klainer said...

Does anyone have any knowledge of R. Shneur Zalman Zalmanov, of the Lubavitcher Zalmanov family, who was crowned Oposholer [sic]-Vorker Rebbe by the Jerusalem Amshinover Rebbe? He may be an example of a Lubavitcher who "left" to become a Peilisher gutter yid.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

קליינער

דער הייליגער צמח צדק האט געהאט א זון - אדמו"ר ר' יוסף יצחק, דער רבי רש"ב'ס שווער - וועלכע האט אפגעלאזט זיין טאטען און דרך חב"ד און איז איז געווארן א רבי בדרך פולין

Zalmanov was raised by a non-Lubavitch stepfather, or something like that, IIRC, after his parents divorced, not that I'm excusing, nor does he need to be excused. Just saying.

Anonymous said...

"Anshei Chabad are well versed in throwing around terminology of Kabbalas Haari as found ,among other places ,in the writings of the Alter Rebbe....."
what are you talking about exactly.
Punkt Farkert, Anshei Chabad like to say that Chassidus is not Kabala, just listen once to Reb Yoells shiurim when he gets to Kabala piece,
so what are talking about.

52 street said...

Zalmanov is a bright boy who has been in Amshinov for many years.I don't think he ever went to Chabad and even if he did it was as child.
I think he may have been a yosom.

klainer said...

Yet this thing called Chasidus is filled with the terminology of the kabolas Haari. I've heard Reb Yoel say that he doesn't know Kabbalah. You know what- his statement makes no sense because all the maamarim are based on kabolas Haari.Can anyone deny it? What was the point of Toras Hahasidus if not to bring pnimiyus hatorah out in the open admittedly within the confines of "hassidus." Still,it's Kabbalah within a certain rational internal framework.

Anonymous said...

These comments are full of generalizations. "Shluchim can't read Hebrew!" "Chabad can't handle the intelligent!" etc.

How about you bring some real proof instead of just yelling? And if you bring some real proof, then you won't have to base yourself on silly generalizations. And if you can't bring real proofs, we'll see that you have just been lying and spreading sinah, motzi shem ra, vechu'.

Anonymous said...

its callad "oppola"
and the sforim he has put out are beautiful

Anonymous said...

52nd
how did you judge his brightnees?

Anonymous said...

Klainer
by sitting and pontificating on your laptop, you will never know the difference, but it will make you fell better, since you will never know how little you know.

klainer said...

Anon. What is it exactly that you do in fact know? Just curious.

voholiner chusid said...

The rabbe from NY got it from his shver after the WOOLEN COAT from his wedding got worn out.