Wednesday, February 2, 2011

ויקנאו בו אחיו, פולין, תרצ"ד



The one one the left is not the point of the picture... Remember that the Rebbe was all of 54 years old here. Yiddishe Tzores do that to the Nossi HaDor. I remember seeing Chaim Lieberman's picture in the Pashkevill they published in 1989, 55 years later (!) He didn't change a bit. Hardly aged. If not for the white hair you'd think he was still that young. It must be alot easier staying a bochur...

Oh, did any of you see the Tolner Wikileaks?

You wanna discuss it?

Shall I upload it here?

87 comments:

Anonymous said...

Please do as most of us have no Idea what your talking about?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

so I'm asking those that do, since some of you may call me a N-zi after you read it...


The Belzer Rov shlit"a really gets it there...

grainom said...

absolutly upload it here, oib nisht, tzu vos taigs du?
nit gidavent nit gelerent, nor geblogged, un dem vuzhe taigstdu aif der velt....?

who takke is on the left next to rayatz?
rashag?

Anonymous said...

nor tziyonim kenmen riffen nazis

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Grainom

you disappoint me

RaSHaG?

are you kidding me?


nehhhh

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it's רח"ל

grainom said...

zait maichel and fill me in, once i open my mouth you realize i know less thren i gave the impression of knowing, in certain inyonim anyways...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

see above

Anonymous said...

chaim leib. who?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

very funny, anon 8:02

Anonymous said...

rayatz had no brothers, so whats your point?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אחיו are his brothers in Poland, the Jews of Poland

tumeler rebbee said...

No one in Poland was jealous of him , he was the laughing stock of all The rebbes in Poland the tamula he made for an of himself was uncomprehending for those times and still questionable toady

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

אז מ'איז מקנא לאכט מען

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

pray tell, what did they laugh about?

Anonymous said...

so this is the fifth style of head wear that i see him wear the week days ,
vuss tit men nisht far tuzres yisroel

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I guess that's what they laughed at, the Polaken, eh?

is that it? maybe at his coat and kapote too?

Anonymous said...

sight seeing with the maskil chaim leiberman

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

MASKIL?

I thought he was a Tzaddik? I thought you Lubavitch haters loved him?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Oh, btw!

we're waiting for Yehupitz, Lex Luther, Klainer et al, together with the rest of the Belzer defensive line, to stand up and condemn the comments here.

[ fingers drumming, fist on cheek...]

pitputim said...

Do you really think that Ger or Alexander or Amshinov were jealous of the Rayatz?

Isaac Balbin

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

did I say it was those three?

boris said...

chaim leiberman from jts was ONLY considered not trief in lubavitch...
probably because of this picture.

Anonymous said...

who else lived in poilan?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Boris

stop embarrassing yourself and showing your עמארצות

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

there were 3 Million Jews in Poland, my friend. Ger was big, but not that big.

peter said...

in chabad rcl was the librarian, a staunch chosid of the rebbe rayats and not of shlita

Anonymous said...

a million ger
a million alexander
half a million amshinov
half a million radomsk

Anonymous said...

nu put up the wikileaks

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

wow!
and I thought there were 2 Million Bundisten!

my bad.

Anonymous said...

nit kayn stira (r"l)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

oh, ok
if so then you're right

but what about the Vorker and The Bobover and the Modzitzer and the Belzer, and on and on and on; do they not count?

and how many of the million Gerrer were Bundisten, and how many were "Oopgehiten?"

yehupitz said...

What's there to condemn? Nobody has said anything. It's just the usual one-line pusteh "snag" drivel.

Totally andersh from the lengthy intellectual-sounding hit-jobs you allowed into your home.

And yet not a word about your experience of Yud Shvat at the Ohel...

Anonymous said...

the rebbe only appointed his shver nossi hador after yud shvat, until then that position hadnt been formed yet.

Anonymous said...

belz and bobov aint poilen, dont confuse poilin with galitzia! c"v

ask a romanian if he is from hungary
or a russian if he is from the ukrain
...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I know Belz and Bobov are Galicia, but the 3 Million number included them too

Anonymous said...

lets see the tolna stuff.
is this the same heroic tolna that you were praising for his performance in or elchananan?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the same Heroic Tolner...

it's close to 500 pages, I need to see how to do it quickly, without slowing down the whole site

Anonymous said...

whats a upgehitine bundist?

Anonymous said...

post a scribid

Anonymous said...

let the tolner files out!!!

grainom said...

let it slow it down, im sure it will be worth the read.

whats the bounty on the tolners head?
same as machnovka, do as you please to him just dont cut his beard?

yisroel said...

In Poland they had hardly heard of Lubavitch.Warsaw the capital had a handful of Lubavitchers.Once the Rayatz came Chabad made some inroads, specially because they had a good yeshiva and a rosh yeshiva like R'Yehuda eBBER, in the Litvishe shnit, with shiurim, room and board.Poland till then had almost only learning in the local shtibel or Chachmei Lublin which was almost impossible to get into unless you were an iluy or very smart+$$$(Zlotys)the regular smart bochur looking for a place was what Chabad latched on to

Yerucham said...

R'Chaim LIeberman:
His two volume Ohel Rachel is a classic in Jewish bibliography and Yiddish linguistics,was the Rayatzs' right hand man.Was one of the very few together with Rayatz,son-in-law,wife,grandchild to be saved by a half Jewish German Officer, through Berlin, in the early stages of the War.
Quoted as saying he knows who forged the Chersoner Genizah, the story that cost Lubavitch a lot of credence because of their insistence that this clear forgery is actually true.
Reb Chaim never married.A tragic life, never married, a scholar and gentleman

Yossel Gutnick said...

The Tolna wikileaks as they pertain to Belz is only a very small part of the file. Just post that part.

Anonymous said...

If I'm not mistaken, there's a whole mayse/shtikel? with "v'yikanu bo echav", maybe a line our Rebbe used once..

Can't recall it now, fill us in.

Anonymous said...

Are you implying jealousy that cl stayed a bochur and u nebach have a rachayim al tzavaro?

Anonymous said...

At leats post a link so we can download the tolner stuff

Anonymous said...

Tumeler Rebbe
"No one in Poland was jealous of him , he was the laughing stock of all The rebbes in Poland"
To get to Poland from Russia, on new grounds, and creating Yeshivahs that had talmidim over 2000 bucherim, is no ground for laugter, in my small minded brain. Most of the talmidim were Benai Aliya you can see it on the few that survived. Outside of Ger nobody laughed, they could not take a outsider coming to Poland their claimed territory for close to a century,with no bitul what so ever of the Gerer Machine, He wrote his letters against Aguda with no fear, they were not used to that Chutzpa.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8;17
"so this is the fifth style of head wear that i see him wear the week days "
obviously he believed we did not get the Besht and Achiye Hashiloni, to create a wardrobe and special garb for every fiefdom with 20 Chasidim,

AH said...

WHOA!!

That was a challenge! But I did succeed in downloading it.

No idea why you restricted download & Print.

Thanks a lot

Arthur said...

It's interesting to note that at the Rebbe's chasuna in Poland almost every Rebbe of note was there in addition to other luminaries such as Reb Menachem Ziemba HY"D.I know so not through the highly prejudicial nefarious Lubavitch propaganda machine but heard it from my father A"H who was there at the time as well as my paternal grandparents HY"D.So much for the RAYAT"Z being a non entity in Poilen.

Mottel said...

ויקנאו בו אחיו was indeed used by the Rebbe to describe the tekufa in Poland. The FR originally moved to Warsaw, but due to ailing health and redifus from certain kanoim in (iirc) Ger (Reportedly caused the closeness between R' Menachem Zemba and the FR ), he moved to Otwock.

amshinov BP said...

Arthur,

I do not know who was there, but I do know that R Yosel Amshinover and his kids ran out of the hall when they saw white gloves...I heard it from the Amshinover Rebbe BP Zal.

Anonymous said...

Artur

Its a bit of a Freudian slip that you mention the Rebbes wedding in Warsaw, in the same post that is debating to download Tolner Wikileakes.

I have downloaded it Very intense stuff It reflects the humane side of Rebbes daily routine. There the Pnei Menechem ztl is being quoted that Reb Menchaem Zemba Hyd ran out of the hall when the couple arrived. So Tvig you better know what you are posting!!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

nor RMZ, the Radziner Rebbe, and that's not true, since we all know that the RR read the kesubah at the Chasunah

Besides, because of white gloves you run away from a chasunah??? I could understand if it was mixed, but gloves??? are you kidding me? they never went to a modern chasunah by one of their chassidishe gevirim, or were never mesader kidushin by a modern couple?

Please.

פיילישע פאנטאזיעס

Mottel said...

Who was it, the Amshonover or Reb Menachem Zembe? Considering the fact that the Pnei Menachem was born in 1926, I doubt he had any first hand memories of the chasuna.

amshinover bp said...

Hershel,

Talking about fantasias... Rayatz's zichroines are not fantasias???

Read "Yemos Oilem" from Amshinov- ou will understand why they ran away.
ANY modernkeit they had a problem with- even carpets :)

Besides the fact Amshinover was there himself.

Each to his own and harbe druchim l'mukoim. You are forgetting this a lot, Hershel.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

my friend

we all know what Poland was like in those days. They may have been anti-carpet, but you don't "run away" from a chosson with a beard wearing a modern suit. I guarantee you lots of mekurovim to the Amshinover looked like that and worse. Just like the Radomsker had the Bessers and Koshickis.

Did they "run away" from all their Chassidim's wives too?


הרבה דרכים, yes, but not this one

Anonymous said...

Amshinov BP
"but I do know that R Yosel Amshinover and his kids ran out of the hall when they saw white gloves."
was Reb Shimele Amshinover also at that wedding? since he was a great yedid for the Bies Horav.

Anonymous said...

Mottel
" Considering the fact that the Pnei Menachem was born in 1926, I doubt he had any first hand memories of the chasuna.'
You are 100% correct, even he was the Rebbes son, his info on that event was fed by Rechiles that circled in Ger

yanky said...

"Just like the Radomsker had the Bessers and Koshickis."

Afaik R'Chatkel Besser dressed chasidic asa bochur

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't recall about Reb Chatzkel

I'm speaking about his father, Reb Naftoli

Anonymous said...

"the Radziner Rebbe"
all the peilishe daily yiddish newspaper of that era wrote that the Radziner was kesuba Lienen,

shimon said...

Interesting that in the minds of all Lunbavitchers everyone is a "yedid".Off course besides everyone who was not.
Lubavitch has proven to be many of the things serious rabbunim were afraid of

Anonymous said...

Yeruchem
"Quoted as saying he knows who forged the Chersoner Genizah, the story that cost Lubavitch a lot of credence because of their insistence that this clear forgery is actually true."
I know that the Chabad enemies are wearing this statement on their lapels, but it is still very hard to believe, it was discussed on this site many times so I will will not chew it again. But a point or two,why on earth did the Guraries invest money on manuscript of a famous forger? Were all their investments so bad?Why did Bigeleisen (grandfather of moshe and shlome)a Seforim Maven print many letters from a famous forger? why did reb Sruel Chortkover give a haskoma for manuscript of a famous forger? If you read the letters of the Maryatz, you will reliaze that before every purchase in Lubavich,he was his maven on all libraries and manuscripts, how come he did not take the obvious advice? It smells from a lie it walks like a lie, I know that the Publisher and writers of Yeshurun Anti Chabad Rag (sorry for name calling a prestigous periodical but from the last few Gilyonois, it comes across that all the torah is just like the Newspaper wrapping around a shtikel farshtinkener fish)invested alot of borscht on this story, but I still choose not to believe them.

Anonymous said...

Shimon
I tought that everybodies life goes like that, that you are my Yedid, unless you proven otherwise.

Anonymous said...

According to the Tolner Wikeleakes, The Radziner ran out, because the couple arrived together on a Buggy.

Yerucham said...

",why on earth did the Guraries invest money on manuscript of a famous forger"

MUCH bigger chachumim fell by Madoff!
Next?

Anon2:31
It's better nisht ibberkayen this mayseh again but nobody with any serious mevines took this seriously after checking it out.
Try not to bring silly raayes from people who fell.Ever heard of the fake Yerushalmy, with chusheveh haskumos?
Lehavdil,ever heard of Hitlers diaries???

And anyway, the tayna is not on making the mistake, the tayneh is ayn akshening once they were shown it...

Yerucham said...

Anonyous 2:31
Btw, you cracked me up when you, an anonymous poster, who probably is a oholei torah yingel with an iphone, accusing Yeshurun of being a "rag".
Lol

Anonymous said...

Yeruchem
"",why on earth did the Guraries invest money on manuscript of a famous forger"

MUCH bigger chachumim fell by Madoff!
Next?"
what a great answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Anon2:31
"It's better nisht ibberkayen this mayseh again but nobody with any serious mevines took this seriously after checking it out.
Try not to bring silly raayes from people who fell.Ever heard of the fake Yerushalmy, with chusheveh haskumos?"
the Marashams did not have a gabai that knew for sure that it is forged and it was not public knowledge yet , the people that visited Chaim Lieberman claim that the seller was a famous forger.

Anonymous said...

Yeruchem
"who probably is a oholei torah yingel with an iphone"
Not exactly, please don't give for a Oholie Torah kid so much credit, that he should know about the Gaas Ruach Gottesmans shenanigans.
But you can still laugh,

Greek said...

ויקנאו בו אחיו was indeed used by the Rebbe to describe the tekufa in Poland.
-----
So the jealousy drivel wasn't invented by Hirshel Tzig, but was the CR's own perspective? Ok then, it must be a divine view. Why didn't anyone tell us about this all along?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ווי א יון אין סוכה

Greek said...

Do the Lubavitchers who read this blog see the author say "nusey hador" and think 'he is one of us'
or do they chap that you are just trying to push buttons?

UD said...

Nu, where are the Wikileaks ?
Speaking of Amschinow, why would you be surprised with any behaviour, especially an excercise and a statement in kitzoniyus, from an offshoot and a noisei keileihem of Kock/Wurke ? (although it probably would be the very last thing expected from R"Y Wurker zy"a, that was limited to himself and just as very personal and unpredictable)

klainer said...

hirshel,
Belzer defensive line is ready and able for the big game on sunday. can you tell me where the tolner-belzer play-book is among the 500 pages of poilishe play action and russishe red dogging ? Lex and Yehupitz are getting impatient...

Anonymous said...

this is not in Poland - it is in the USA,
The Frierdiker Rebbe arrived in the USA Adar 9 5700.

jnet user said...

can you please upload it so jnet users can also have access

love Lubavtich... but said...

I guess all the Kinah qualifies one as Nosi HaDor.

pitputim said...

Amshinover BP:
I gave my copy of Yemos Oilem to Rabbi Groner z"l after it came out. Do you know where I can get a copy now? I'm also interested in other Seforim if they exist!
Isaac Balbin

Anonymous said...

Klainer

Look at page 407. There is plenty more, but this shuld be enough to get the dice rolling.

Well, Looks like the Pnei Menachem Ztl did not fargin the Belzer. After all Ger has only 400 chasidiem and Belz has 100000...

klainer said...

anony 5:56pm
Thank you for the page reference.If you find other references please let us know.

klainer said...

Re:Wikileaks p.407
Guess who was the sandek at the bris of R.A.M. of Belz?
hint:his name is Reb Yisroel, his last name is Alter and he's known as the Beis Yisroel of Ger.It would appear that perhaps he had an opinion differing from that of his brother.Otherwise, he would have declined the kibud.

Anonymous said...

Klainer
the beis yisroel was sandek for alot of Kanape Tzadikim

Anonymous said...

The rayatz caused a problem for Poland and its rebbes and Chasidim here was a rebbe who fought communism in its home base with a mesiras nefesh bepoyel mamash in Russia set up yeshivos and chadorim in Russia the base of communism and succeeded a person himself without changing any thing that he was mekabel from his father

In Poland to fight the budisten the Zionism the communist mizrochi the polisher rebbes had to have the help of the german yekes and set up a library a girl schools a mesivtah with limudei chol all is the german way to fight reform how did reb pinchus cohen maspid leo deutchlander the founder of beis yakov brother leo you have brought the light from the west to the dark masses of the east

But the ryatz to fight communism in Russia did not have to use the ways of the west

Anonymous said...

Annon
where is this hesped printed?
but you have to agree that the Gerrer rebbe was succesfull in stopping the bleeding