Wednesday, February 23, 2011

"עטרת ישראל ותפארתו"


It's busy season at the moment, so you'll need to excuse my slow pace of writing these last few days and weeks. For now, take this. It's interesting to note that RYBS would write these words in a letter to RaSHaG, not the Rebbe... Which makes doubters like his son Hayyim and others look silly when they say there was no connection and that Lubavitch propagandists were the ones to "create" it based on circumstancial evidence. It would seem that RaSHaG probably wrote about the Rebbe in his letter to RYBS, but I could be wrong.

50 comments:

Anonymous said...

Why the heck would you assume that the Rashag wrote about the Rebbe? Also, since when is RYBM so תופס מקום by you that you take pride in his title throwing?

Anonymous said...

Sorry. RYBS

Anonymous said...

Schneur will go to his Rebbe Reb BG ohel, and ask him on his fathers letter. Untill then we are in the blind and we have to take this letter at face value.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Also, since when is RYBM so תופס מקום"
you are very holy and you learn torah bikedusha uvetahara, but me and my friends are big fans of RYBS torah, with the belief that he was the real brisk in lomdus, and I am in awe of this letter.

Anonymous said...

how can you copyright a item that belongs to Chabad library?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

copyright is a שם המושאל here

.....מ'רעדט דאך

Anonymous said...

i thought r beryl always signed his name "ben rashkebihag the rov zatzal"...?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

anon 5:00pm

דו מאכסט זיך צי דו ביסט
???

Anonymous said...

Why don't you put a watermark like COLLIVE does instead of these ungainly stamps.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

well, I created the watermark, but I can't figure out how to stamp the picture

I have basic photo editors only

Anonymous said...

There is a letter from RJBS regarding Chabad, in which he writes that he has "romantic" memories of the Lubavitcher melamed of his youth (despite the chepperring of the young lad).

This letter, I would guess, is in HT's basement. Go check

Anonymous said...

Anon #4:

I was asking since when he is תופס מקום by HT. I have no personal grievances against RYBS.

pitputim said...

I am not sure why so much is being made of this letter. In context, one can imagine that the Rashag asked for a bracha or at least mentioned the Rebbe's state of health and the Rav answered in a respectable and respectful manner. I'm not sure how this letter changes much of what we know. Exactly how does it contradict what R Haym Soloveitchik or others wrote or said? Exactly which quote from R' Haym or others are you referring to?

Isaac Balbin

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

it's not about תפיסת מקום

it's about what's been happening these last few years, where people like his son Hayyim say that he never heard his father mention the Rebbe, implying that there was no relationship, that the Rebbe and RYBS never knew each other in Berlin, and that the darn Lubavitchers made that up TOO.

FWIW.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"i thought r beryl always signed his name "ben rashkebihag the rov zatzal"...?"
I guess it was a day whe he faced reality and he realized that his father wasn't Rabon shel Kol....

Anonymous said...

Chaim animosity toward charidiem, gets him into a bipolar stage.

Anonymous said...

Firstly, it seems that the guf hamichtov was written by someone else. Only the chasimah is the Rav's, who was, already then, beginning to show very early signs of illness.

See Kfar Chabad mag of 10 Shvat hashato, article by former secretary of Agudas hoRabonim, R' Avraham Sh. Levin, of what he wrote down from the mouth of R' Sholom Ber Kubalkin (Kubalsky?) of the Rav's relationship with the LR. They would meet regularly at the house of R' Chaim Heller & got to know each other well there. Also, by chance, the Rav discovered that the Rebbe would go every day to the mikvah AFTER he attended classes at university, & that he would regularly fast BH"B.

Why would RYB discuss such thinks with Dr. Chaim anyways? Did Chaim even ask his father about their relationship?

Agav, in the picture of RYB at the Tomchei Temimim dinner with the Rayatz at the head table, the Rav is sitting next to the Rashag, NOT the Ramash.

-- ZIY

pitputim said...

R Haym Soloveitchik was undoubtedly telling the truth. I don't see why letters such as this contradict that in any way.

Anonymous: It was R' Sholem Ber Kowalski

Isaac Balbin

Anonymous said...

Issac
Id you follow Dr Chaim you will see that a nice part oh his philosophy runs on a anti charadezation of our society. He has long articles on that subject.He despises Reb Hirshel Shachter for putting on his father a charadie facade.
I heard from Rav Cimemt the early Chabad Shaliach of Boston, alot about his relationship with the Reb Yoshe Ber, he always held the Rebbe in a very high esteem, much more then you see in this letter.Rav Ciment is a very straight shooter he does not add no flair to his stories.
I remember seeing a interview of the Reb Yoshe Ber for the newspaper Maariv, he spoke about the mitzva tanks, he said it is very important to have today the "in the face yiddishkiet", you need Chutzpa today, the other ways don't work. Eventough I will deny that he could have from time to time 2nd toughts, as his intelectual mind was constantly on the go, and 1 day say a opposite sevara. As you see in Holtzer book, that he was not steadfast on his ideas, and constantly debating himself.He could have some days semi Anti Israeli views, and in public say the the famous "5 Derosfas". Thats why MO yidishkiet is not matzliach. The masses need strong leadership, they don't like every 2nd week to rethink their stance.

The Bray of Fundie said...

Forgive the uninitiated but I seem to be missing something very basic here.

Is this a letter to the Rebbe or to his BIL? And if (as it seems to me to be) to his BIL WTH does he mean by כל הנלוים אליו? Who was "nilveh" to the loser of the war of ascension to the Rabbistevoh as late as 1978?

Anonymous said...

To add to ZIY's remarks -
R. Genack from OU and other talmidim of RYBS are interviewed on JEM's Early Years re Berlin, going to mikvah daily etc..

Here's where Prof. Hayyim smacks of Rabbi Dr. Tendler, claiming they're the only ones to (re)write their father's/shver's history and halacha.. (=That RMF let RMT trim the former's beard slightly; that he fed him chalav akum).

For some homework, see here

http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/1128452/jewish/Rabbi-Soloveitchik-Cries-during-Prayers.htm

And here (including the links on bottom of page)

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/529444/jewish/The-Rebbe-and-the-Rav.htm

Anonymous said...

Another link re RYBS -

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3221/jewish/Do-You-Have-a-Father.htm

The Bray of Fundie said...

I know that I'm dense and out-of-the-loop but someone please enlighten me and answer my questions.

grainom said...

do you offer a discount promo code to your readers if you do their taxes for them?

Anonymous said...

this letter is as good as the smicha

The Bray of Fundie said...

rachmunis

Anonymous said...

Bray
Rybs, knew exactly that he is not the Rebbe,
it means his wife, son, co worker, this is a very traditional word to use.

Joey said...

"I heard from Rav Cimemt the early Chabad Shaliach of Boston, alot about his relationship with the Reb Yoshe Ber, he always held the Rebbe in a very high esteem, much more then you see in this letter.Rav Ciment is a very straight shooter he does not add no flair to his stories."

Anon,
You are the same anon Lubavitcher poster.Now, you can believe whatever YOU want, but don't turn everyone into a koolaider.Ciment as a Lubavitcher would obviously say that R'YB held greatly of the Rebbe and you as a Lubavitcher would obviously say Ciment is a straight shooter.
What R'YB really held of Lubavitch seems to be mixed as seen in Holtzers book.Additionally his son, even if he is not entirely right would have a better idea than most about how close the LR and R'YB were.
Btw, since when is Lubavitch "Chareidi" that Haym Soloveichik should want to fight them?The LR himself attended college something Haym S would be very positive about

Anonymous said...

To add to Anon 9:27 -
I believe in the links posted above, R Chaim Ciment is interviewed as well.

Interestingly, about R Ciment - as I heard from his grandson - the Rebbe told him to learn Smicha with all Pri megadim's..

The Bray of Fundie said...

Anony 11:34

really? wouldn't bnei beiso be the proper term for a non-Rebbe?

Do YOU get Rosh Hashannah vintschin like this?

(I'm assuming that you aren't a Rebbe yourself but with todays cyber-anonymity who knows?!?)

Anonymous said...

It's ridiculous to think that this letter somehow contradicts Dr Haym's contention that the Rav didn't care much or mention Lubavitch, I don't see why these are a contradiction. And btw, in response to anonymous, Dr. Haym very much values and respects R Schachter and his seforim on the Rav. It's Kaplan who attacked Rav Schachter for charediizing the Rav, never Dr. Haym.

volvy said...

The facts are that R'JB Soloveichik came to one farbrengen and made a shiva visit when the Rebbes mothers passed away.I think that'sthe sum total of their meetings in 50 years.
Btw, the talmid that drove RJB to the farbrengen was not the better known R'Hershel Schechter, the talmid muvhok, but a different rabbi with the same name.
The general idea was that R'JB was not a great fan of Lubavitch.To better understand the issue you have to understand that what the Rebbe and R'JB had in common was that both were considerd not part of the Chareidi consensus and both craved the Frim "shtempel".
Since than Chabad has grown enough,especially financially to tell the Chareidi world...where they can go as fat as Chabad is concerned,but that took many years

koppel said...

Tax season already??

Anonymous said...

CS claimed (according the Holy Rebbe of Liozna) that his father was insulted by the Rebbe (due to being rebuffed by the Rebbe when asking for a audience) and therefore since then kept a cold distance and knows of no connection that his father had with the Rebbe since 1952 (aprox, I don't have the Holy LR book in front of me).

So, using the scientific method so beloved by CS, I will say that this letter surly contradicts him! Since it betrays a warmth toward the Rebbe, after the above date

Besides that, CS "knowledge" is also refuted by other empirical facts (which can't be attributed to cool aid). CS claims there was no correspondence between them since that year, CS and also the great historian the LR Shlita, ignored corrspondance from the Year 1966 after RYBS came for a shiva visit and a a written Torah discussion. ensued. the letter is published. (That CS doesn't know about it, he can be forgiven (although it doesn't give him any license to speak categorical about his fathers views and relationship, if he doesn't have all the facts) but that the LR Shlita writing a book and being Lubavitch, doesnt about that letter, you can already understand the shoddiness of his work).

Besides, Rabbi Ciment who is indeed a straight shooter as an arrow, I also heard from many witness who are Bostonian s, who told me about his effusive and and high esteem he showed always toward the Rebbe (The Rebbe used to send him every volume of Ohr Hatorah of the Zemach Zedek)

But in this forum you can expect that the posters here don't get confused by the FACTS

Anonymous said...

Chabad doesn't crave the Sthempel of the Chreidish world, if they would crave they would, obviously follow every fad of the Chreidish world. Mainly in the department of becoming excluding and insulated. Its that easy. Also Solo, didn't crave the shtemple, he was quite oblivious to the Chreisdish world. Only in the current world where imitation is the highest form of Idishkeit is the Shtemple of the Chreisdish world an advantage.

Es shteit nit in Torah az tzu zein an emese oived hashem men darf hobin them Shtemple

yoske said...

oh no. am i too late to see the full gerrer and brisker wikileaks?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

look at the archives on the side and look in February 2011, Yoske

yoske said...

i did. it's not there

Old said...

yoske, I posted it on בחדרי חרדים in JPG form. Hirshel, I was temped to put the copyrighted by OldBrisker stamp on it.

Old said...

yoske, I posted it in בחדרי חרדים in jpg form.
I was tempted to put my copyright stamp on it.

Old said...

JB couldn't sign בן רשכבה"ג, as he was the RASHKABAHAG himself.

klainer said...

1. The real hiskashrus of the Rav was to The Maharyatz. His relationshiop to the Rebbe was one of two colleagues who were acquaintences in the Berlin years.
2. There was a relationship with the Rashag since it is known Leyodei Chein that Reb Bere Gurarye was being considered as an eidem in the Beis HaRav.
3.The Rav was also close to the Rashag because the Rashag was close to the Kramer family who in turn helped the Rav become Rosh Yeshiveh at RIETS after his father's passing.

Anonymous said...

Volvy
Shtusim Theories Shtusim Theories....

Anonymous said...

Anon
"Chabad doesn't crave the Sthempel of the Chreidish world, if they would crave they would,"
Gut Gezoogt,,
the Rebbe would have to ponder for instance, did Rav Wosner realy mean it that the giur is no good when he signed the Kol Korah, or he realy meant it whe he told Reb Ovadia, that everything is great an the giurum are OK. And would have to listen to the whimsical Ravad Rav Sternbuch, he is on the verge of unstable.

Anonymous said...

Klainer
give me a break he was not mekushar to no one,

pitputim said...

Anonymous: I do not know what you are talking about. The Rav's stance on Israel is consistent all along. Rabbi Holzer's book doesn't change anything!

I don't see what Dr Haym Soloveitchik's philosophy, which is beautifully expressed in his classic Tradition article has anything to do with this topic whatsoever. Above all he is an academic. He is not in the business of making things up. Those who think that the Rav's life revolved around the Rebbe in any major way are really dreaming. It matters not whether you are Rav Shachter or Professor Kaplan or Dr Haym.

Isaac Balbin

ari kahn said...

I was in the Rov's shiur for 3 years, on one occasion he did mention that RMM"S ZT'L was in class with him in Berlin, and he said "He sat in the back of the room with a mishnayos open - and always did well". He then spoke of the rift between Chabad and Lita and added that he thought the Gr"a was mistaken to avoid meeting the Baal Hatanya and he said "Chabad do many positive things...but I do not say to join them" and then he chuckled.

Anonymous said...

Issac
"Those who think that the Rav's life revolved around the Rebbe in any major way are really dreaming"
so far nobody claimed that, but he was yedid.

Anonymous said...

Issac
"Rabbi Holzer's book doesn't change anything! "
what does that mean?
he could claim in a derosha, that modern Israel is a semi atchalta, but in his private talks he said different.

Anonymous said...

"Firstly, it seems that the guf hamichtov was written by someone else. Only the chasimah is the Rav's, who was, already then, beginning to show very early signs of illness."

Very observant. I am 99% sure that this is the handwriting of Moreinu Harav Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Har Etzion (Gush) and son-in-law of the Rav.