Tuesday, December 21, 2010

Jury still out on Yoeli Roth



I very much relate to the very encouraging yet simple message: Lo LeHisya'esh, despite the fact that slogans like that are not mamesh in the Chabad spirit, or so I'm told - but that's beside the point. It seems like he's having an effect on them; I doubt these would be singing "Ich vil zahn an erlicher Yid" out loud was it not for Yoeli. אודה ולא אבוש, I stick to the general consensus when it comes to Shick of Breslov, and the fact that Yoeli's message is so closely tied into Shick is troubling to me. (As a matter of fact, it seems like all Shick has here in NY - other than the 2 guys who distribute his kuntreysim on the streets of Brooklyn - is Yoeli's bachurim!) Well, maybe not troubling, but makes me doubtful as to whether what he's doing is the right thing. Then there's the שמועות that kids he had in his Yeshivah are frei'ing out and that he's having the opposite effect of what he should be having on them. I take that accusation in stride, not knowing the cases and where those kids were up to when he took them in. He seems like a very angry young man at times, and the curled nose you see in the shmuessen videos is proof positive. So if his goal is to be mekarev these bochurim why is getting them to go to Shick so important to him? We wanna know, and until then we will not reach a verdict. There are lots of videos out there, we humbly suggest that you look for them and decide for yourself.

On another note: The guitar. what's with the guitar?! why is that the instrument of choice for all the Kumzitzers and at-risk kids doers?! Every singer worth his salt has decided that he needs to play the guitar, and without it he's incomplete. The Stutchiner Rebbe (Yudkowski) can be seen on the web playing a guitar and singing Carlebach to kids at risk. Is that the only way to reach these kids - or anybody, for that matter? And where is the outrage concerning Shlomo that was around not so long ago? My, how times have changed. Why, only 28 years ago Reb Mendel Wechter was beaten inches from death for learning Chassidus with bochurim. Today Roth is telling them to say mishnayos and become kabtzonim and he very defiantly puts his speeches on the internet for all to see... Have we lost the war aginst those that prey on young, innocent children who know not better than to be taken for a ride by cult leaders who use these people like Kleenex, and throw them in the trashbin once done with them?! O' how we miss the days of old.

It's seems like it's catching on, even among those already out of Yeshivah and not necessarily YR's talmidim...

130 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is Shick that bad? lately I saw that parts of mainstream Breslov recognize his existence.
His Kuntreisim are not bad it is just repetitious to death

Anonymous said...

Isn"t the Fiddle a necessity in the Nadvorner rebbisteve? is the Guitar by chasidim a Hemshech from Krechnif?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

do you mean he was "recognized" by Kenig from Safed?

Anonymous said...

Yes
I saw a picture of them Shmoozing as old pals

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Kenig seemed more interested in the many buildings going up there in the City of Brelov, Yavniel. The visit was seemingly only cordial
He's not recognized by Breslov at all

Anonymous said...

In the world of Breslov its philosophy, Shick has a problem by acting as a Admor, Reb Nachman in his sichas despised the "Mefursomim" meaning the Ukrainian Rebbes, here comes a guy claiming to be a Admur, of the Breslover school,but I dont think it was the main pillar of reb Nachmans thinking.

Anonymous said...

So he came to ask some construction advice?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

איך זאג גארנישט

I'm just telling you what it seems like to me

Anonymous said...

I heard that the town of Willi made peace with Yoeli Roth as a person and his yeshiva, Lev Yodai that there is a need for that outlet, but the Viener guys are still out for his blood,
Maybe I heard wrong

Anonymous said...

wechter was beaten because he had betrayed a trust that these parents had given him, once he was exposed no one gave him their son to.... even today in kfar malachi

Der Ruv said...

I'm very surprised...

Just because Shlomo Carlebach (who engaged in some questionable behaviors) used a guitar does not mean there is anything wrong with it.

A guitar is a musical instrument, no better or worse than the cherished violin. It is very portable, and (relatively) easy to play, making it a choice instrument.

What would you suggest, that they schlep around a piano?

Dovid Hamelech composed many songs on a "10 string harp," that chances are were more similar to the guitar than today's harps.

Der Ruv said...

"Reb Mendel Wechter was beaten inches from death for learning Chassidus with bochurim."

A more honest statement would be: "Reb Mendel Wechter was beaten inches from death for learning Lubavitcher Chassidus with bochurim who's parents, Rabbonim, and derech in yiddishkeit were staunchly opposed to the derech he was teaching them."

Anonymous said...

דער רב: אהא, און פארדעם איז ער חייב מיתה

Anonymous said...

Is the guy in the black sweater the one who acted in the movie about the bochrim who frei out?

Der Ruv said...

"Anonymous said...
דער רב: אהא, און פארדעם איז ער חייב מיתה

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:56:00 PM"

איינער וואס שרייט "ניגער" אין הארלעם איז אויכט נישט מחויב מיתה. אבער ווען ער ווערט געהארגעט, זאג נישט אז איינער האט עם געהארגעט ווייל ער האט גענומען א שפאציער. זיי מזביר אז ער האט געטאהן א סכנה'דיגע זאך.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

נו, נו
אבי דער רב איז זיך מודה אז אנשי הארלעם האבען עס געטוהן
....

Anonymous said...

Der Ruv
the laws of Willi are like the laws of the Harlem jungle, Hu Asher Dibarni,

Anonymous said...

Der Ruv
if someone would influence my son to go the Veyoel Moshe Shiur in the Mir, do I have the rights to "almost" kill him?

Anonymous said...

was chana Gurari beaten in Harlem?
wechter wasn't even hospitalized , chana G was inches from death, if you and under stand that some people are cheiyev misa so did wechter deserve a good beating

Isaac Asimov said...

Hershel

Sometimes I don't understand you.

Shtetal life is over!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Isaac

please explain. what do you mean?

Der Ruv said...

"Anonymous said...
Der Ruv
if someone would influence my son to go the Veyoel Moshe Shiur in the Mir, do I have the rights to "almost" kill him?

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 7:00:00 PM"

I take it you did not see my comment in Yiddish.

I did not justify anything. I just said that the sentence, as written, left out a key part of the story.

Anonymous said...

"wechter wasn't even hospitalized"
how old are you?

Anonymous said...

Der Ruv

I understand boruch hashem yiddish, but you answer was a niggerisher entfer, vest mir mochel zien,
you have to answer as the Chachimoe Deyedoa( a word yoy people like to throw around )Sender deutsch used to answer that all this hooligans habve no relationship to Satmar and end of story.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"was chana Gurari beaten in Harlem?"
you can ask a blogger by the name Schneur, for decades he was the family spokesman on this site and many other sites, he definitely has her hospital records.

Der Ruv said...

Seriously, does anyone honestly believe that, aside from the mental case who beat Rebbitzen Gurary, anyone else in Lubavitch was happy about it?

Just from a public relations standpoint it would clearly be a disaster. People would, of course, side with the elderly woman who was severely beaten, and it would be to the detriment of the case, as well.

And to those who keep claiming that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was pleased -- the Lubavitcher Rebbe's wife was close with Rebbitzen Gurary, her only remaining sibling; do you really think the Rebbe would be happy with something that would severely upset his wife, and could have killed her sister?

Anyone intelligent and honest would clearly understand that it was the work of one crazy lunatic and nothing more.

Anonymous said...

I beg you to post this without sensoring it....

I know you probably won't post this R' Hershel but I would love to hear an honest respnse .....it may be one sided but it puts a different light on the 'They killed him because he was saving bochrim from Gehenom....'

The problem with R' Mendel's story is twofold

1) He knew he was doing something wrong, otherwise why hide it.

It wasn't R Yoel Kahn, they used a 'local boy' that everyone respected , who everyone thought was a true and proven Satmarer.

The problem was he was being instructed by the Rebbe personally who knowingly made him a human korban knowing what Williamsburgers were capable of after the many incidents with Mitzvah Tanks etc....

He was taking impressionable bochrim who did not come to him to seek the chassidus he was selling....they came to learn in a good yeshivahm, not because they were unhappy with the haskafa in Satmar, Shopron, Tzeilem, Pupa or elsewhere

Had he told the bochrim (even if not the parents) I am going to prove to you why Satmar is wrong and Chabad is right from the begining he would not have had one bochur with him...

Everything was done on the Rebbe's instruction, knowing the danger he was putting Reb Mendel in, knowing Reb Mendel would do whatever he asked.

2) Reb Mendel himself did not understand that he was being used as a tool of revenge against the Satmarers for refusing to let Chabad get a foothold in Williamsburg. He was a pawn in the game of politics rather than a chassishe revolutionary saving neshomes...

When in Australia he said openly he never intended on becomeing a Lubavitcher, just to learn the chassidus, but after what he did no one else would let him in...

The bottom line is that Williamsburg did not want their kids to turn into the type of people who most commonly live in Chabad communities including Crown Heights today.....

Good chabad yungerleit don't stay on the path unless on Shliches, whoch like Kiruv is not for everyone....

Anonymous said...

I think the Rebbe was happy that she was taught a lesson' but not with the extent....

If the Rebbe believed in playing fair, he would have cordial relations with most Chagas Rebbes today outside the "satmar / Hungarian" extremists that most other Rebbes fear (politically) but don't hold of hashkafically.

Der Ruv said...

You do realize that "Chagas" is a fictional term used only by Lubavitchers, right?

Which shows you to be a disgruntled Lubavitcher, because no one outside of Lubavitch uses that term.

Anonymous said...

Anon,
Its a nice long derasha, the fact is simple, Reb Mendel Vechter was and is a Yeria Shomaim Merabim, he felt it is the Derech Hashem that has to be taught to his talmidim, according to toras hashem a rebbe owns the talmidim not the parents,(this is the halacha love it or leave it)Koved has to be given to the Rebbe before parents, his lost items are before the parents, (just take a Yoreh Deah in your hands)Torah is not democratic. So he did the right thing in any shape or form. As a satmarer chosid you have the right or obligation to go a bies din and declare his philosophy Heresy and he gets a din Masit Umaideach, But I believe you need a Sanhedrin for that,But the holy Reb Mendel did the right thing that A Yerie Shomaim was supposed to do

Anonymous said...

Der Ruv
I think that it is kabala term,

Anonymous said...

Anon,
let me ask you a question.
would the Satmar Rov Reb Yoel, stop a Rebbe that has influence in a Mossad that is frum but Zionistic bend,that can tilt the kids to the Satmar view of life, would he stop him.

sources please said...

sources please ,
according to toras hashem a rebbe owns the talmidim, sources please
not the parents,sources please ,(this is the halacha
sources please
love it or leave it
sources please
Koved has to be given to the Rebbe before parents, sources please
his lost items are before the parents,
so according to you a goinev nefesh umochro Leraboi is not chayev misa ?? what a stretch

Der Ruv said...

" Anonymous said...
Der Ruv
I think that it is kabala term,

Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:48:00 PM"

Of course, but no one uses it to refer to a derech in Chassidus other than Lubavitchers; many of whom actually believe that just as they think of their derech as Chabad, the other Chassidim think of their derachim as Chagas.

Included in this, is their mistaken idea that the philosophies of all non-Lubavitch Chassidim (excluding Breslov) are essentially identical.

And mashpiim and other "farbrengeners" (for lack of a better term) expound on these concepts to gullible young Lubavitchers who know nothing about the outside world other than what they are told.

This is, when they aren't busy making fun of the long gone "Kapusters" and how they "walk their dogs.

About the dogs, I kid you not. Reb Berel Lipsker likes to talk about that at farbrengens.

Anonymous said...

Mister sources
Hilchas talmud torah, hilchos kibud av ...

Dov said...

"I very much relate to the very encouraging yet simple message: Lo LeHisya'esh, despite the fact that slogans like that are not mamesh in the Chabad spirit, or so I'm told"

Why does everything you do have to be "in the Chabad spirit"?
Do you have no individuality?
Are you some kind of clone?
Do you think that all the readers of your blog come here for "Chabad spirit"?
My guess is that most people don't give a hoot about "Chabad spirit".
Please don't warn us if something is not in the Chabad spirit

Sruly said...

Mendel Vechter knew he was playing with fire.It was not a sudden thing that he was taken to task.It took a lot of time, till some tzehitzteh people lost patience.
Of course he was not beaten to within a inch of his life, that's just political grandstanding.
Mendel was warned may times to stop or leave.
Nobody would have a problem if he officially joined Lubavitch and opened an official Lubavitch/Chasidishe yeshivah.
Had an underground Breslover penetrated Chabad and brainwahed young kids he would get much worse treatment.The violence between the variousLubavitch denominations puts Satmar to shame, they are just better at p.r

klainer said...

Why was there never one word of apology,regret, or condemnation of the attack on the daughter of the Rayatz Z"L by a Lubavitcher bocher in the confines of 770? Does Lubavitch know what the word "I'm sorry" means? I think it's a Kabbalistic term like Chagas and Kopust. Shlochim are briefed on its use so they'll sound like regular people when they start fundraising.

that guy said...

Really Tzig? A guitar is so difficult to understand?
Allow me to explain…
Large instruments (i.e. piano, drums, etc…) are not kumzits material since they cannot be schlepped around. A guitar on the other hand is easy to shlep.
Playing a brass/wind instrument (clarinet, flute, etc…) would mean playing the lead, and people would notice the second you messed up.
Basic acoustic guitar, on the other hand, is very easy to learn. Anybody who is not tone deaf can figure it out rather quickly and in just a few short weeks they can lead a kumzits. Some of the greatest entertainers who were known for -amongst other things- playing guitar, were actually not all too well versed in playing guitar (i.e. Carlbach, Elvis, etc…) and did not know more than seven or eight basic cords. Additionally, since basic kumzitz guitar entails only playing the cords/harmonies and not the lead, it is ok to mess up here and there since nobody will really catch it as long as you keep strumming away.

Now that I answered your question, please answer mine.
Do you really fail to see the difference between Roth and Vechter? Do you not understand the difference between taking young impressionable children and secretly teaching them things their parents object to (Vechter) and openly making a yeshiva for boys who need chizuk which their parents agree that they attend(Roth)???

Anonymous said...

I can't quote chapter and verse, iber gedeink ich, that right after the Gurary incident, the Rebbe strongly condemned any negative involvement/interaction with the parties involved.

Basically, it seems that the Rebbe didn't imagine he'd have to bavorrehn it beforehand, d'lo b'shuftani askinan.

(Agav, m'zogt that besides the fact az "der bochur" iz a bissel m'shuga heint - he was then too as well. I wasn't in 770 then, but perhaps someone can attest to it here).

Anonymous said...

Sruly
"Of course he was not beaten to within a inch of his life, that's just political grandstanding"
Is it your assumption? or your wishful thinking? have you ever fallen out of a traveling van after been beaten up? I heard all the details from Wiess 1 of the goons that was in the van that morning.

Anonymous said...

Sruly
"Mendel was warned may times to stop or leave."
did the office in 82 Lee Avenue warn him? did yakov shimon fogel/cohen speak in their name?
also who is the guy that owns Willi,that can warn any Dick and Harry, Have your son leave and thats it,

Anonymous said...

this post is about roth, you mention vechter, and the comments are 95% vechter. can you please open a vechter post and let them comment away.

what about roth? what about mohorosh?

for some (unbeknownst) reason mohorosh is persona non grata in almost all kreizen.

i have a close relative (a married guy) who got arein geshleppt there. i can't put my finger on it, but "something" doesn't smell right. he lost a good job as a result, and all he talks is about being freilach. his family is deprived, abi men iz freilach. everybody is freilach all around. yes parnossa, no parnossa, men iz freilach.

my question is, freilach with what?

this mohorosh seems like a cool harmless guy. i even attended one of his leil shishi shmuessen. seemed like normal stuff.

my question is, vi liggt der hint bagrobben?

Anonymous said...

the way way shmira and shomrim fight in crown heights today about how Boifen Hamiskabel the mushiach campaign should advance , i think the job on wechter was more successful

Anonymous said...

Sruly
"The violence between the variousLubavitch denominations puts Satmar to shame"

I like your fact throwing, when is the last time that in CH happened a Scene as Achron Shel Pesach on the willi street ? or the mayhem in the Ross st Belz or Simchas Torah in Rodney?
I am a Willi boy,Al charbecho tichya by the Ursheve Krulle guys (noting to do with the anti Zionistic stance in the last few decades ) is a badge of honor. Every chasidus Belz with the Bilgrayer etc..,Lubavich with its intrafights ,etc.. pales in that issue vs. this crowd.

Anonymous said...

That guy
"which their parents agree that they attend(Roth)???"
I saw few booklets written against him that he took away good kids from Viener parents? is it a fabrication made up by anti breslevers as skver and rachmistrivker The story is to fresh to start the revisionism , give it 10 years for some diaper babies to grow up, and sell them the lies.

Anonymous said...

I like your fact throwing, when is the last time that in CH happened a Scene as Achron Shel Pesach on the willi street ?
after the kinus hasluchim when the non meshichitim wanted to farbreng in 770 and the year after
you are so chuts lemacna yisrooel that people don't care when you fight among yourselves abi nisht tzvishen yiden

Martin Luther Queen said...

Anonymous.
Perhaps in fact you should quote chapter and verse. And you need to take some ginko for your memory
The Lubavitcher Rebbe never publically condemmed the attack on his sister in law Rebbetzin Channa Gourary in 770 on Shabbes Kodesh while he was speaking.'
On the contrary members of his mazkirus enabled the culprit to escape to Israel right after shabbes.
Until your comments no Lubavitcher anywhere ever claimed he did.
How about continuing the re write of history .

Anonymous said...

Anon
to compare some orange peel throwing with a full scale street by street war, both is ludicrous,
you can feel good that u answered but the facts were different

Anonymous said...

ou are so chuts lemacna yisrooel that people don't care when you fight among yourselves abi nisht tzvishen yiden

Apparently it still concerns you somehow! Do you also read about Christian infighting?

(P.s. Decide your accent, or Chiiits lamahchna Yisroool. or Chutz lemachna yisruel)

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the amount of lies being perpetuated here, one after another, is hard to keep up with, which is why the liars and haters think they can get away with it.

If they don't know the facts in a current case, ala Yoeli Roth, how can we believe them when it comes to stories that happened in the early 80's???

Anonymous said...

but you know what happened the early eighties because you decided what and whom to believe

Anonymous said...

On a more freylecher note can the Ruv tell us the story of Kapust and the " dogs "? Perhaps things can be lightened up a litle.It already was said publicly ,so whats the harm?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

That guy

stick to guitars, please.

or go and do your homework on Roth and Vechter.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"ou are so chuts lemacna yisrooel that people don't care when you fight among yourselves abi nisht tzvishen yiden"
Satmar people are very fond of this kind of talk, where exactly is that machne? Lee cor Rodney? 13 Hooper? Lietners Bies Hamedrash?
Charadeiem in KJ?
the joke abi nisht is used everyday on both sites of the aroni and zali, plz keep that juvenile talk in your machne,

Anonymous said...

Reb Martin
"On the contrary members of his mazkirus enabled the culprit to escape to Israel right after shabbes"
where you at the airport that moitzie shabos and you saw chadakov? Groner? Krinsky? Klien?
Did you see the transaction of the funds for the ticket, say on the Chabadsker Rebbe whatever you want, but he did not know Interlander schtik,He was definitely Mechitz Lemachne on that one.

Anon3 said...

To set the record straight.The individual who set upon the Rebbitzin Chana definitely had a screw loose.I personally had some interaction with him when he was the learning rebbi in the bungalow colony where my family was at one particular summer and taught my son.
The blood libel that the Rebbe was in some way "overjoyed" about this incident is the figment of some sick individuals imagination.

klainer said...

Nobody ever said that anyone was overjoyed.
At the same time there is no record in a siche or letter of a condemnation of this act.
Rebbetzin Guraryeh remained permanently blinded in one eye for the rest of her life as a result of this attack in 770.
Isn't this just a little troubling?
Even if you are from the shtarkste mekusharim, can't you still feel some compassion for what happened here? Like I said "I'm sorry" was very much in order.

Didon Nutzach Who?? said...

The fact that the rebbe instigated the beating of his sister law so she shouldn't be able to testify in court that her son was entitled to her inheritance, cost the rebbe dearly he had to settle a law suit that Barry threatened to sue him on instigating a murder for personal gain , the settlement money was 10 times more that Barry could have earned from the books , Didon Nutzach Who??

Anonymous said...

Didon Nutzach Who?? said...

The fact that the rebbe instigated the beating of his sister law so she shouldn't be able to testify in court that her son was entitled to her inheritance, cost the rebbe dearly he had to settle a law suit that Barry threatened to sue him on instigating a murder for personal gain , the settlement money was 10 times more that Barry could have earned from the books , Didon Nutzach Who??

could u stop this garbage? Goebbels ym"sh was right. A lie repeated enough times becomes the accepted truth. Perhaps to avoid a k'peida, take a minyan with u and go to the ohel to ask the Rebbe mechilah for your disgusting words. We can argue over anything, but accusing the Rebbe of instigating violence is beyond the pale, and m'tzad ahavas yisroel I'm advising u to take a minyan and ask mechila.

Anon3 said...

"Even if you are from the shtarkste mekusharim, can't you still feel some compassion for what happened here? Like I said "I'm sorry" was very much in order."
"The fact that the rebbe instigated the beating of his sister law so she shouldn't be able to testify in court that her son was entitled to her inheritance, cost the rebbe dearly he had to settle a law suit that Barry threatened to sue him on instigating a murder for personal gain , the settlement money was 10 times more that Barry could have earned from the books , Didon Nutzach Who??"
"Mekusher" to who?Let me tell you,who ever you are,that I was mekusher to the Rebbitzin Chana as well as the Rashag ,the Rebbitzin Musiah and the Ramash,as the Rebbe was then called. During my early childhood days when I and one other, who shall remain anonymous because it really is no ones darn business,would go up to her apartment for milk and cake every Shabbos during krias Hataireh.When I had my tonsels out at the tender age of 4,Rebbitzins Chana and Mussiah personally paid me a visit to bring me a gift on that "auspicious" occasion,which again is really nobody's business.I am only mentioning these two incidents to show that I have no axe to grind against her and remained close to her ad sof yomehoh.
My question is who should apologize for the actions of one deranged individual? Should a letter of apology have been written and signed by all of Lubavitch for something that no one except for one nutcase was responsible for?Should the Rebbe have given credence to this individuals action by coming out with with some official letter of apology? I can affirm without the slightest doubt that to say the Rebbe was extremely upset would be an understatement.
As to the the allegation that the Rebbe "instigated" this whole sorry affair is, as I mentioned, the product of some ones fevered imagination and to use a cliche ridden term does not deserve to be dignified by any sort of response.
Enough said.

Anonymous said...

Didon Nutzech
I like yout blood libel webs, what was the end ? she testified?

Anonymous said...

Klainer
Why did the rebbe owe a apology? was it done in front of him?

Anonymous said...

"The fact that the rebbe instigated the beating of his sister law"
by fighting for your rights in a monetary dispute, you become a instigator? why? because you chabad haters are nibbling on that little bone of rechilas for the last 20 years.?

klainer said...

Anony.1:08 and 1:12:
I see that getting an "I'm sorry" is going to be difficult.How about sending a "get well" card to the hospital? How about a couple of official nshei chabad going to the hospital to be mevaker choleh her? After all,it was "just a monetary dispute." After all she was only blinded in one eye-the other was still good. Who's got time for this -the billionaires are here for lunch.

Anon3 said...

I will not dignify and lend credence by replying to the obviously very disturbed and hallucinatory sicko who accuses the Rebbe of having instigated the attack on the Rebbitzin Chana.
To the other individual who claims that The Rebbe and all of Lubavitch should have officially apologized or show remorse for the sorry episode with the RC I have a question.Did the Gerrer Rebbe or collective Ger apologise for the actions of one perverted individual who performed unspeakable and perverted acts against hundreds of Yiddeshe kinderlach?
Did YTT apologise for the actions of one of it's rabbeim for similar acts against his talmidim? Did Satmer or for that matter any Rebbistve or rosh hayishive or yeshive ever apologize for the acts of wayward individuals against their fellow Yidden?Are you saynig that entire communities should bear the onus of the crimes committed by one of their constituency?What "remorse" must they officially show for the actions of of one or more avles performed by them?

Didon Nutzach Who?? said...

Anon asked..what was the end ? she testified?
She only met with with the rebbes lawyers and handed them a the tape were the rebbe stormed away that the missing seforim are live bombs, with written summery from professional experts that such words coming out from such a powerful leader is code language to incite to kill, in her lawyer briefings she also wrote what she would testify when her lawsuit will come to trial,that her sister agreed that her son could benefit from their inheritance only after the attempt to murder her that resulted in separating them, her sister was intimidated to testify differently what they agreed upon,
They quickly convinced the rebbe to settle out of court the sum was undisclosed but enormous

Anonymous said...

""because you chabad haters are nibbling on that little bone of rechilas for the last 20 years.?""
No because you chabad lovers are nibbling away about a minor family dispute that has no relevance to anyone

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anon3 said...
""To the other individual who claims that The Rebbe and all of Lubavitch should have officially apologized or show remorse for the sorry episode with the RC""
You are right its only a complain against the rebbe who non stop demanded that satmer should condemn the wechter episode that happened in boro park and not in beis chayanu

Anonymous said...

don Nutzach Who?? said...

Anon asked..what was the end ? she testified?
She only met with with the rebbes lawyers ...

bubbe maises. after losing the case and the appeal, barry decided to sue the Rebbe for instigation. He was broke, the Rashag rewrote his will and left his estate to the Rebbe (about 1 mil). The Rebbe did not want to go to court so they settled that he can have his father's estate. In reality, it didn't cost the Rebbe anything.

In the seforim trial, she gave a deposition claiming her sister said about barry getting some seforim, and the instigation claim was already in the court papers 2 yrs earlier. Her sister separated from her a while after she was attacked, so your history is totally mixed up.

klainer said...

The minor family dispute was turned into a referendum on the entire nesius.This decision was made by lubavitch not by Bere Guraryeh.Those who were around remember that emotions were in a state of extreme agitation.The media was covering this closely and everyone was on edge. That's the context in which the attack on Rebbetzin Guraryeh happened.If you don't believe me ask someone else who was there.In my opinion the powerful lubavitch public relations machine was orchestrating this emotional frenzy. That's why lubavitch needed to apologize.

Anonymous said...

I, amongst many, have heard the same as Anon 11:02 writes.

Good Shabbos to all,

Our Didon Nutzach said...

So what I read here is Kol maa SheIera Lehamiteler Reben Iera Lehrebbe , so i don't understand why dhis Hie Teives is not called and celebrated as a personal Yoim Hatzala for the Rebbe , the Rebbe could have spent Gimmel Tamuz in Otttisvile

Anon3 said...

"You are right its only a complain against the rebbe who non stop demanded that satmer should condemn the wechter episode that happened in boro park and not in beis chayanu"
The attack on Mendel Wechter was not performed by one misgided idiot but was an attack enmasse performed by many, with the explicit encouragement of the Satmar leadership.The only one to apologize was the Tzeilemer Rov ZT"L at that time.

Feldman said...

"The attack on Mendel Wechter was not performed by one misgided idiot but was an attack enmasse performed by many, with the explicit encouragement of the Satmar leadership.The only one to apologize was the Tzeilemer Rov ZT"L at that time."

Hey there, Arthur,Anon3!
How do you know that the attack was "encouraged"??
In my book that's a blood libel, nobody "encouraged" and it was not "ennmasse" (SIC)it was done by three or four individuals.
You obviously believe that you can accuse everyone else of" kol maaseh sheloi yeoseh" Satmar, Snags, Bere, anyone....but when the same is thrown back against you you become "oof geblozen oon baleydikt".
Don't do unto others what you don't want done to yourself

Mayer said...

The reason the oylem is not so carried away against Roth is because Breslovers are still very much part of the Frimmeh velt.Especially the non Baaley Teshiveh.Some very chosheveh people are part of the normal Breslov.
Unfortunately that can't be said about people becoming Lubavitch.Generally one of the first things they do is cut off their peyos, grow a big chupp and take off the alt modische chasidishe levish.
Once a family member becomes Lubavitch s'iz an anderehvelt.
One guy I knew Z.L. M, who taday is a big mechanech in Lubavitch, could not take off his peyos and levish, but made sure that his kids made modern shidichem

klainer said...

Anon3: You seem to be well connected to Bais Chayenu. To set the record straight could you tell us how the Rebbe's reaction to the "event" was expressed in private.I think alot of people have been confused by the lack of some form of public expression of regret over the incident. As I have already said nothing in this world happens outside of a context-and that is certainly true here as well.

Anon3 said...

"You obviously believe that you can accuse everyone else of" kol maaseh sheloi yeoseh" Satmar, Snags, Bere, anyone....but when the same is thrown back against you you become "oof geblozen oon baleydikt".
Don't do unto others what you don't want done to yourself"
Me,oifgebluzen?Never
Where did you come up with the numbers "three or four"? Were you there? Do you have some "inside" information that we are not privy to?Please do enlighten us ignorant peons. In any case "three or four" or maybe a little more, certainly outweighs one.Isn't it "common knowledge" that the Satmar leadership was involved in the Vechter story, or at least as much as the Rebbe was allegedly "involved" in the attack on Chana?
Feldman????Are you the son of the Feldman A"H that was Bere's buddy that davvened in the Friediker Rebbe's study on RH and YK back in the day?If I'm not mistaken his son davvened there as a youngster to as did I.If yes iz mir alz farenfered.

Anonymous said...

Didan
"They quickly convinced the rebbe to settle out of court the sum was undisclosed but enormous
If i undersstand you correctly, the Rebbe paid a large sum of money for chana, for his incitement, thats a new one for me.
The Rebetzin testified against the Rebbe, thats a new one too

Anonymous said...

Mayer
"Some very chosheveh people are part of the normal Breslov"
who decided they are normal? you? who decided they are choshev? you?
the bad crazy breslovers are not breslov, but the bad crazy lubavichers are part of lubavich, I love your way of thinking,
Imagine it will happen to a Lubavich Mashpia what is happening the last 2 months with Berland..

Anon3 said...

"To set the record straight could you tell us how the Rebbe's reaction to the "event" was expressed in private."
To say that the Rebbe was livid about the "event" is an understatement but to be honest, I don't know why he didn't comment on it publicly.

Anonymous said...

Mayer
"Generally one of the first things they do is cut off their peyos"
if Lubavich has a shita to do that custom because of the Arizal, they shouldnt have done it because a idiot like you does consider it modern, Like telling the Alter Rebbe not to cut out Borech Hashem Leoilem,Veshomri since it is making davening shorter. Lubavich has no galicianer /poilisher mesorah about levush for men,I am not ready to argue about that tonite,but the fact is they dont have that mesorah, period

klainer said...

Anon3 12:27 I greatly appreciate your honesty and sincerity.I believe it does lend a somewhat positive dimension to this terrible event even if the response remained confined to the private realm.In the zechus of being close to beis chayeinu you should have much brochoh and hatzlochoh.

Anon3 said...

Feldman ben Itzik Hakoihain
You said
"You obviously believe that you can accuse everyone else of" kol maaseh sheloi yeoseh" Satmar, Snags, Bere, anyone.."
Did I "accuse" any of the above of any wrong doing on this string of posts?Please check again under calmer circumstances and let me know where. Maybe some allusion to possible wrong doing by Satmar,but Snags,Bere? Wishful thinking.
The truth of the matter is I got along with your father famously.In fact your parents staid over at my house one year or was two when Mendel couldn't put them up.A nice man he was except for his over the top "dislike of the Rebbe.

Grainom said...

if the rebbe was as bothered by the beating of chana gourarie, he could have responded the same way the holy bobover ruv did when his son r bention got divorced, "anyone who feels that they have to fight another yid on my behalf, should please find themselves another rebbe" emshnelsten... vda"l

Anon3 said...

Shtika kehodoah dami
Well it seems that this Feldman fellow who attacks me about my alleged hatred of Satmar,snags and above all Bera (Berka)has an axe to grind and is the son of Itzik Feldman A"H who was about the only friend of Bera in Lubavitch.He was a virulent hater of the Rebbe because of this and other issues.Apparently his son has imbibed that hatred into his psyche.Chaval.

Anonymous said...

Grainom
please don"t sell the old Bobovers Ahavas Yisroel, he was a big facade.I heard too much from Goldfinger OBM that brought for Bobov millions of dollars,and then thrown to the dogs by the holy Reb Shlomele himself. After he realized that alot of money goes missing by the Rebetzin and her holy Ben Yochid. The guy brought them Katz that was then the only guy that give big chunks of money. He was thrown out of Boobov they ruined his life till he died.
The Lubavicher Rebbe had no intentions to talk about a incident of a lunatic, he did not see a trend of beatings that has to be stopped.You all Chabad bashers can harp till tomorrow on that incident, but these are the facts I was a lot in 770 those days and these are the facts.

Anonymous said...

This guy looks like the new Carlabach
on the block.

Anonymous said...

Carlbach made only after his death, I hope Roth will make it in his youth,

Feldman said...

Wrong Feldman

Anon3 said...

"Wrong Feldman"
Could be could be not but you still haven't answered my question
"You obviously believe that you can accuse everyone else of" kol maaseh sheloi yeoseh" Satmar, Snags, Bere, anyone.."
Did I "accuse" any of the above of any wrong doing on this string of posts?Please check again under calmer circumstances and let me know where. Maybe some allusion to possible wrong doing by Satmar,but Snags,Bere? Wishful thinking.

Anonymous said...

Not only the Chanah Gurary beating. The Lubavitcher Rebbe did not apologize or discuss publicly the Gavin Cato death that lead to the CH riots either, because that would be akin to admission of guilt on some part. In a way, the Rebbe was more directly associated with this incident than the Chana Gurary incident, since it was a car from his own entourage that accidentally killed Cato. Though Lubavitch did send a few askonim & Rabbis (including Rabbi Groner who lives down the block from where the death took place), there was no official public apology. Not one word at any fargbrengen, not even a word of chizuk to his own community for all the chaos & physical harm that they were facing... PERHAPS this was related to the legal awareness they received from the Seforim case.

IIRC, the case against the Rebbe was for "inflammatory rhetoric" at farbrengens. The "lebedike bombes" sichos were used to scare people who bought seforim from Barry to return them. (Recordings of these sichos were played to buyers in London & Israel. For the most part it worked. See Bogomilsky's book on "Didan Notzach.")

Right at the beginning of the revelation about the seforim, there were bochurim who went to Montclair to "rattle" Barry, until they received a hora'ah from 770 to stop.

As for Vechter, well whoever remembers those days remembers the pictures of Vechter in the hospital, his legs in casts suspended over his bed. He also had broken ribs. He was thrown out of a speeding van. Yes, this was no minor incident. Fogel-Cohn was all over the place, instigating. He was behind the Piniye Korf beating too. He also would come to Yoel Kahn's Tanya shiur in BP to scare & intimidate those who were going there.

& we can go on & on...

As for this Yoeli Roth guy, well he shmeks of being on an ego trip. Even the camera angle and how he plays for it seems that way. Just my gut feeling....

PS: Where is there video of Rav Yudkovsky of Stetchin with guitar?

-- ZIY

Anonymous said...

Klainer
"How about a couple of official nshei chabad going to the hospital to be mevaker choleh her?"
she would never let them in to her room she was farbissen to her death,(If she was right leave it for a other day) After the Rebbe heard from A Shaliach of the Munkacher Rebbe that she wants to be buried there,the Rebbe tried to change her mind thru many channels that she should come back and get her plot near her parents. She was stuborn not to talk to them even,
So please get your self a other subject, since you dont get tis people anyway.

BTW, she was not blinded at all.

Anonymous said...

Anon
"The Lubavitcher Rebbe did not apologize or discuss publicly the Gavin Cato death that lead to the CH riots either,"
Is your last name Sharpton?
it is worse then that, he did not apologize for the global warming that his old Cadillac and the entourage has caused,He not only incited the global warming he actualy was in that big fat Car with big muffler..

Pukendorf said...

Many of the people on this blog should follow the elad of the Rashab and seek medical guidance for their problems. Nothing to be ashamed about. Enough of the ceaseless talk about Chana not being beaten etc etc.
I bet we would all feel better after such treatments.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Puke on you:

watch your tongue, you Porek Ol, you.

klainer said...

Anony:6:42
When all else fails-blame the victim. She was farbissen, she wasn't blinded,she wouldn't have talked to a delegation,she didn't respond to channels etc. blah,blah blah.
What you're really saying is that she's not worth having any guilt feelings about-after all she was farbissen,etc
From here it's only a short step to saying that she deserved it. R"L.

Grainom said...

i personally think the rebbe was never informed of the riots.

instant messageing said...

Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:30:00 PM
Blogger Grainom said...

"I personally think the rebbe was never informed of the riots."

So what, His Schver the Nusie for sure told him on his next visit, that his daughter was beaten in the vicinity of the Gan Edin hatachten

Anonymous said...

Ach, zuch ah gud pust nided a hundreth komint

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

95 of which were off topic...

Anonymous said...

Klainer
As your style of concoting facts, so areyour weaving facts into my words, I never tought that beating up anybody is a way of life, eventough it is the unfotunately Derech Hamekubel of charaidim to settle scores with their enemies, but obviously you hold Chabad to a lower standard, so they will be banged for this incident till eternity.If you knew the Rebbe and you knew the insides what happened those years in 770 you would not write all your hate mongering, I dont see a reason to influence a person that the Rebbe is Guilty just for his exsitence.

Anonymous said...

what does guilty mean?

Anonymous said...

Webster dictionary xplains it

klainer said...

"the rebbe is guilty just for his exsitence"-Huh?Anony.10:32
The popularity of the subject shows that 25 years after the fact people are still pained by the event.
Unlike others I never concocted facts.
Gotta go-the Blatt just arrived in the mail.

Anonymous said...

you finished hearing Kol Mevasser?

Anonymous said...

the siyum on yurshalmi is certainly worthy of its own post, im sure the goat wont let us jusy eat grass

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

The goat is too mesmerized by Heshy Friedman to speak...

Mario said...

Its interesting that no Lubavitcher comments on this thread expressed even a shred of remorse about the events concerning Chana Gourary. The cold- ness of the comments says it all.I too need to rush got to buy the New York Post

klainer said...

Kol Mevaser? I'm listening to Kol Satmer. The Rebbe's pilpulim are pilei ploiyim.

avrumy said...

Lubavitch managed to come out of the Vechter incident as "victims", though they were the instigators.
Got to hand it to Lubavitch, they are numero uno in the p.r spin business! (and nobody beats Mottel with his ability to tweet and tech know how)

Didon RUtzach said...

To Avrumy !!!Lubavitch wanted to come out from the vechter incident as victims it didn't stick the P R spin didn't work.
The whole chag hasforim today is also to cover up on the attempted murder on the Bas hurav

Anonymous said...

Avrumy/Rytzach
You all haters can bark, people and all chassidic Gedolie Mashpiem, As Moregenstern,Kluger,Erlanger,Makever rov, Rav Wolfson, Reb Chaim Lieb Katz. etc.... are flocking to chabad in the masses, hate does not nourish a soul that is thirsty for the dvar hashem. It is amazing how at the end this powerful hate machine was not capable to diminish the Dvar Hashem of Chabad. Your hate will not take you far.

Anonymous said...

". are flocking to chabad in the masses,"

In your dreams.
Lubavitch, the group, has never been less relevant.
Chabad Torahs?
Tanya was always learned by intellectual chasidim.Today, you have people being paid cash abi mekimt in Tanya shiur.
Bottom line is that Lubavitcher chasidim have never been so mechutz lemachaneh

Anonymous said...

"mechutz lemachaneh"
Which Machne?
people in Kfar chabad feel very good in their Machne,
Did Reb Yoel Kahan go to Israel with fesser gold as Reb Yoelish used to go? or as the Tietelbaum brothers go? if no money nobody would look at their faces.Just imagine Heshey and Riezy from Montreal arrive to Israel with no Mullah. But thousand upon thousands came to hear the Choizer of Rebieni Hakodesh Vehather Zechosu Yugen Olieni,bringing the dvar hashem,and he had 2 meetings with all chasidic mashpiem how to teach chassidus and what to teach Chasidus. Maybe he gave everyone money to buy Apartments in Biet Shemesh? Just for the photoup?Why did you not tell me? I could use the funds. You can stay in your Machneh and watch not to be influenced by non of the Mashpiem, because your Machneh walls are coming down.

are flocking to chabad in the masses, said...

When you say that people are flocking to chabad in the masses,i and othe people came for the nice concert and songs, they didn't understand one word when reb Yoil spoke neither did they care what he said they waited for the next upbeat nigun,

Blattman said...

RYT and RAT and RZT brought and bring money because their people do not take money from the medineh.The last word is not in as to who is right.The last I heard the Chabadniks were completely Israelized, prattling along in their street culture Ivrit while the old yishev people were still connected to the alte heim in language,levush ,and minhagim.I sort of remember some talk about" koech hapoel benifal." There may be some truth to it.

Anonymous said...

Blattman
"while the old yishev people were still connected to the alte heim in language,levush ,and minhagim."
while the officaly have no affiliation with the evil medinas hakofrim but taking checks from the evil medinas hakofrim for 7 Teudat Zehuts

Anonymous said...

Blattman
"do not take money from the medineh"
but RAT and RZT fight in their courts of the evil medinas hakofrim for some apartments in benai berak, and RYT for the Peloncher Rovs apartment in Zefat.

Anonymous said...

Bllattman
"prattling along in their street culture"
what does that mean, they eat falafel,

Anonymous said...

are flocking to chabad in the masses, said...
dont talk in the name for the whole city of Jerusalem we are not all as low

Blattman said...

Despite your brilliant insights many old yishev people do not take money from the medineh and are supported by the mishphachas haTemorim and other kind hearted individuals.Many live in dachkes and continue in the ways of old Yerushalayim.They are the last direct line to the way millions of Jews lived just several generations ago.
I have no knowledge of the court cases mentioned.
By prattling I mean the very coarse and street-wise culture that is part of everyday life
in Israel.It does not include a sense of self -reflection and holiness that would be appropriate for Chasidei HaBaD and other erliche Yidn.
It's not so much the falafel and humus as it is
the certain "arum" that informs the environment in the streets.Ivrit,too, is spoken in a very "proste" fashion.It does not sound like "leshon Hakodesh."
I haven't signed on to the Edah but there are things of great spiritual beauty there.

Anonymous said...

Blattman
"are supported by the mishphachas haTemorim"
would you say that the 2 toldosim brothers are supported by the Temorim?
why are they going to 5 towns and teaneck to find sources?
The Temorim are busy building their own fiefdoms.
Disclaimer, in my Torah it is a mitzva to take money from the Medina, as was the view of all the Gedolie Yisroel asher Koree leBaal haTzioni.I realy would love to be in the same Gehinom as the Chebiner Rov then with Nussen Yosef Miezels.

Anonymous said...

Blattman
"By prattling I mean the very coarse and street-wise culture that is part of everyday life..."
I was in Eretz Hakodesh and I saw too many kids OTD from the finest insular Yerushalmi houses, so lets not compete on that

Anonymous said...

Blattman
"I haven't signed on to the Edah but there are things of great spiritual beauty there."
I haven't sign on to the Mizrachi but I saw a lot of spiritual beauty in Mercaz Horav

Anonymous said...

Blattman
"Ivrit,too, is spoken in a very "proste" fashion"
is it proster then the Yiddish that is being used in the Yid, Blatt, Yidisher Gedank or Kol Heolam Kulo.?
the last time I checked the Kfar Chabad or Sichas Hashevoa it did not have more ivrit then the Hachoma or Hoadeh with no prustkiet what so ever.

Blattman said...

The Merkaz HaRav people are very eidelle yidn and they are the exception to the general idea I am discussing. And yes, I've thought about signing on there as well.I'm not interested in ideaology but rather in a lifestyle that reflects a certain quietness and tzniusdike way of encountering the outside world.The edah has many"difficult " people on its rolls but there are also many old yerushalmis with a certain derekh hachayim that doesn't exist in the Israeli street. It's not just Habad, but I include the Yeshive world and other Hasidim as well.The Israeli "street" is very aggressive and impatient and Haredim of all stripes are becoming more and morea part of this culture.

Anonymous said...

Blattman
Lets not turn this discussion in a Kitrug Fest on the Am Hayoshev Betzion, Eretz Yisroel has tens of thousands yiden that live a very high spiritual life, the we fargrebte Americans can"t relate to.People that are in the know of Jewish History claim that Klal yisroel never had such a big crowd of Benai Aliya, (I am not getting in to the Yeridas Hadoiris belief)that live a holy life like the Shevet Levi of the rambam, I am not in the mood now to argue that it all is because and despite the Memsheles Hakofrim. All the negative stuff you see in the media is a natural phenomenon from such a big crowd, but don't be naive the Parnosie Hakehila of Poland,Russia,Hungary... were more corrupted financially and as bad as Moshe Katzav and no way to get rid of them, or punish them for their sins

Blattman said...

This is not a kitrug c'v; I'm just pained by an Israeli culture that is rather embarassing in its crudeness and hard-edgedness. There may be a great number of learners but bnei aliyah? America is certainly no better.There is also a bit of a chillul hashem when decent goyim remark on the lack of civility in Israeli society.With certain exceptions the haredim are also part of the culture. A gutn Shabbes.

Anonymous said...

Blattman,
What is your category for Benai Aliyah?
You thing a normal Goy thinks that a country with close to 7 people will not have crime, rape and theft. I was their in the summer and I was shocked to see how nice they treat you at the airport,Checkpoints and El Al, the Israelis are famous for the Dugri in the face Style, I saw them extremely hospitable. The minute you get to NYC you felt the rough handling of every schnook with a Kezais badge on his breast is out to harass you and maybe arrest you for 27 years.Their is not much reason to be here in the USA, it is turning slowly in to a Chavez style 3rd world country.