There are 9 more pages of this...
If you're nice to me I'll post them all.
Thanks to an anonymous benefactor for sending me this. They say that this might be the work of one of the Schlesinger Bros. from London, reknowned 'Kanoyim'. I bring you this page now to show you that despite it all there was still the same old misnagdishe approach to Chassidim and their Rebbes. Not the Rebbes of today, but even the Alter Rebbe, Reb Nachman and the Sfas Emes. The fact that he says that Chassidim removed shtiklach from Tanya because of what Reb Chaim Volozhiner wrote later on to counter that shows us that -------- whatever.
60 comments:
I if it is indeed from The London Shlezngers, I whould strongly advice you to take it with a pinch of salt.
BTW The Brisker Rov Ztl did not have a problem with Chabad. It was the Chazon Ish and R A Kotler Ztl which had an issue with the Rayyatz Ztl.
so I should take the word of an anonymous commentator over HaRav Schlesinger?!
Hirshel
I am not the same anon, but it is definitely Shlezinger from England, since he talks about Saba of Rozenhiem. He is a Muchzak Shakren in the Brisker family.Also he is embarrassing the Brisker Rov with the anti chabad words, it makes him look like a Ignoramus
Re: עח it is incorrect,the first print of Tanye is available online http://hebrewbooks.org/24555 and you can see what it says there, there where no changes from the first print to the current (besides printing errors)
Why is it a chiddesh?
Everyone was against Lubavitch.Nobody held of them, though R'Yosef Yitzchok was seenas a yid with mesiras nefesh, though misguided.
Ultimately we see what happenned with Lubavitch today.When it comes to actual shmiras hamitvos they are very similar to the old style Mizrachi.When it comes to "deos" they are over on avizarayu deavodo zora in the best case (if not A'Z itself r"l)when it comes to the Rebbe.What other group claims their rebbe to be kol yochol, or that he "runs the world" or ch'v says "boreinu" .So boreinu is a small group, it just shows that the larger group is not very far away.Meshichist ideology is a generation away from 'boreinu" r"l.
Zev
let me guess; you have the attention span of a squirrel, right? did you read what he says there? did you read what I wrote? or you just saw the Lubavitch and began to scratch away at the keyboard?
Actually I have a decent attention span,Hirshel leiben, what did I miss??
And if you mean the detail about Tanya changing because of Nefesh Hachaim? Lema'leh, if he said that the writing is so "great" az "ess kleybtzech ein vort tzimanderen vi arbes tzim vant", that you can actually think that parts were taken out, it's no big compliment on Tanya.
You are better off saying parts were taken out.
we've reached a new low here, people
little creatures who never learned in their lives are now "mevinim" oyf Tanya
אוי לעינים שכך רואות
We reached a new low when a yold like you decided to "defend" Lubavitch.
Even people who loath current Lubavitch and all it stands for would give it more credit than having it stoop to you as it's "defender".
no, ,it's not a new low. People in a group defend it all the time.
But to have you decide that you know better than 214 years of learners, which included Gedolei Olam across 7-10 generations, of all kreizen, is just plain sad. Where do you have the gall to say that, you oysvorf?!
What I said was that if a sefer could read as if parts had been taken out, even if they were not is not a compliment
Wow the indignant outrage????
Listen, you "big" talmid chochom.There were many generations of gedolei torah who wrote seforim.It's only in the Lubavitch psyche that Tanya is THE decisive "Torah she'belapeh" of ALL chasidim.
The honest truth is that the Baal Hatanyas true greatness is brought out in is Hilchos Talmud Torah for example.Tanya was not widely learned outside of Chabad till the "huge" campaign, radio broadcasts etc with people not even understanding a word, just parroting like Sruly, your ten year old cousin
ok, Zev whatever you say.
they're referring to the second half of perek 7 of shaar ha'yichud v'ha'emuna which directly attacks the gra (והנה מכאן יש להבין שגגת מקצת חכמים בעיניהם ה' יכפר בעדם ששגו וטעו בעיונם בכתבי האריז"ל...). it was omitted in certain editions (v'dal), but definitely doesn't make much of a difference to the tanya's overall point. the description here of the 'chabad shita' is a testament to the author's vast ignorance (of history too).
"214 years of learners"
(nice little "prav" showing you wearing the "historians" hat now.Multi faceted guy we have here.Journalist,historian,truth seeker, chosid,teachers pet.Vunderbar)
It's a shame that Zev considers himself an "expert" on Tanya, despite never having opened it.
He knows nothing of the mesorah and the history, but that doesn't keep him from shooting his mouth off. Which is typical of people from that school of "thought," if we can call it thought.
hirshel you wrote"Not the Rebbes of today, but even the Alter Rebbe, Reb Nachman and the Sfas Emes ". reading the page you put up all there is is glowing praise of the sfas emes. what did you see?
"prav?" is that like 10th grade "reid?"
מחכים בכליון עניים לשאר...
ר' הערשל!
בבקשה אל תהי' ממונעי בר.
praise of his sefer al HaShas only...
until the radio campaigns everyone outside lubavitch learned nefesh hachaim, you tell them zev!
Zev
"Ultimately we see what happenned with Lubavitch today."
If you are going that direction maybe we should discuss all the brisker einiklech of Boston Veavizriee.That took the Brisker methods to build a MO Judaism and matir roiv Issurin Shebatorah,Can we say look what happened to reb chaim seiniklech?
Zev
"When it comes to actual shmiras hamitvos they are very similar to the old style Mizrachi."
are they putting on tefilin? are they wearing Yarmulkes? are they Wearing Tzitzes? are they keeping shabos? are they eating Kosher? are they using Mikvehs (bor al gabo bor)?
what shmiras hamitzvois problem did you see?
anon
Zev went back to Year II math class in Mesivta. He won't be able to respond.
Zev
".So boreinu is a small group, it just shows that the larger group is not very far away.Meshichist ideology is a generation away from 'boreinu" r"l."
if Rav Unterman and rav Amiel the biggest Talmidim of reb shimon Shkop were Zionist, or Reb Mier Bar Ilan was a Zionist then the whole yeshivah world are Zionists?
Zev
"it's only in the Lubavitch psyche that Tanya is THE decisive "Torah she'belapeh" of ALL chasidim."
Tanya is the torah shebal peh, meaning that no Chasidim differ with the Alter Rebbe shita in achdus Hashem, this is where the Brisker Ruv Kevayochel talks nonsense,(unless that idiot shlesinger is putting words in his mouth)The Sfas Emes, Kotzker,Chidushi horim etc... are all on the same page on the shita in achdus hashem, the difference was only (not in Ger), by some Russian Rebbes, is that it is to tough for the masses to get in to these delicate subject, But nobody differed on the shita.
Just 1 question for the Brisker Ruv? if Chabad of the Alter Rebbe has a problem with Emuna Vedies, then how come his great father Reb Chaim befriended the Rebbe Reshab, he was the ultimate chabadnik, he wrote 1000's of pages to explain the Alter Rebbe? it was no secret in Vaiss Rusland that he build a yeshiva and his works are the basic curriculum of that yeshiva.Would Reb Chaim Brisker work with Rav Rieness on saving Yidishkiet? according to the Brisker Nebech Apikoras theology, the Rebbe Reshab emuna is much worse off then Rieness.
Muz Men Zhogen, that it was a Shvacher Minut by Maran Hagriz M'brisk or Schlesinger is a liar, or he did not understand even the Sichas Chulin of the Brisker ruv,
tzig, zurg zich nisht, your eyes have seen much worse, more so, you've experienced it too.
what do you mean? what have I experienced?
טיטשערס פעט
I guess you don't like being called this.Must've hit a raw nerve
are you a jealous ex-classmate, Zev?
is that what it is?
which teacher's pet was I??
You would not post it earlier.
You like when the melamed did
פוטשיניו
and knipt your bekkaleh.....
טיטשערס פעט
כא כא!!
ok, whatever
now you sound like a creep
go away
Not an ex classmate
Not from any cheider with you
And would never ever be jealous of a טיטשערס פעט
I could never stand them
"now you sound like a creep"
Creep is a low blow, don't you think??
no, not a low blow
just telling you what you sound like
try not to sound like it next time
Stop being so touchy
I don't know or never knew you
And if you were offended I"m sorry.
Zai gezunt
I learned a number of years under Rav Avrhom Yhusha in Brisk. All the Brisker story's have a unique chein and wit, and usually the vertlech on Chasiddiem are spot on. Reb Avrom Yeshua is extremly well rehearsed in the history of Chasiddus, and overall they have a great respect for previous Rebbes (not for the clowns from today).
BTW Tzig, did you see the story in the Tolner Wiki Page 170? That the Rebbe was having a walk with his fiancee at the time that the Rayatz Ztl was arrested. Can you corroborate or refute this weird, and may I say, shocking, revelation?
1st of all, why are you shocked?
Se past nisht for Nesi Doreni to be walking in the streets with his fiencee. Chazal say that a Talmid Chochem should not walk with his wife, never mind a fiencee.
But again, who am I to judge.
I guess he didn't consider himself a TC
besides, he wasn't married yet...
tzig,
I will preface my comment by saying I only perused this very quickly so I may be wrong. But my quick glance it seems that as usual you do a disservice to yourself and your readers when you talk about matters or people with whom you are not familiar. I (in my quick reading) didn't say anything negative about the SE. The only thing i saw which you mentioned in a comment above, which was from R' Chaim btw was the comment about only his Priush on Shas. If you reread it you will see he says he doenst know abotu the pirush on chumash. if you know anything about a Brisker is that the just means literally what he said, he doesnt know. Perhaps he never had a copy or more likely was Miayin in the SE Al Hatorah. therefore he said only the Shas (am I familiar with and I am full of praise for) VDOK.
what nonsense!!
"זיי האבען נישט געוואוסט אז ער קען לערנען"
who is the "zei"?
The Gerer Chassidim didn't know that the SE ken lernen? is he kidding???
Komandant,
don't take it so serious, it is a simple Farbisener Litvisher Joke. That whole Kotzk/Ger school were geonim betorah, the SE grand father the Chidushie Horim was the Goan Hador of Warsaw, and he was one of the biggest Rebbes in Poland, so this whole theory holds no water.
Anon 3:44:
The biggest talmid of Reb Shimon Shkop IS Rav Koppelman. And he's anti-zionist.
So there.
you mean smallest.
literally.
VeDal.
bad joke, I know.
Anon
"Chazal say that a Talmid Chochem should not walk with his wife, never mind a fiencee."
chazal say in Berochas 24 that when there is "Aimose Deschhina" all these things dont matter, Look in devash Lefi, Benai Yisoscher Kislev that by Kedoishei Elyon there is a different set of rules.
Fredrick
you are embarrassing reb shimon shkop if he was the biggest talmud, please..
This is all part of the age old tradition of everyone hateing everyone else. Without this hatred we couldn't feel good about ourselves-that's how emotionally immature most frum yidn are-and as proof of my point I'll bet you most readers don't even know what I'm talking about.The average somewhat educated goy has developed certain elements of courtesy,empathy, and some emotional self-knowledge. I'm not talking about the geruim shebeumos. The frum yid ,however, feels good by looking down on everyone else who is different than him. That's why alot of frume defendants recently have gotten whopping jail sentences. The average goy sees them as self-righteous,condescending, and completely unrepentant. After all ,why should we worry about knowledge of oneself and self-honesty when we can enjoy a 30 second outburst against Mizrachi?In Israel the answer is to draft all the phonies twirling their peyos while they daydream away the day in their kollel.Several years in Tzahal and they'll grow up. They'll find something better to do than measuring women's hem lines.Don't worry we'll feed them some of that much talked about Edah food that was never even slaughtered by the Edah.This way they'll have reine hashkofes when they return.OK, let's return to today's special: kineh,sineh, and a double portion of nit farginung.
Talmidei R Shimon Shkop:R Lazer Yudel,R Elchonon,R Shmuel Rozovsky,R Leib Malin, Rav Gustman.Ok thats enough for now .I guess I rest my case!
so at least we see from hear that the brisker rov held that the only chassidus is chabad and breslov!
"Yodea Davar said...
they're referring to the second half of perek 7 of shaar ha'yichud v'ha'emuna which directly attacks the gra (והנה מכאן יש להבין שגגת מקצת חכמים בעיניהם ה' יכפר בעדם ששגו וטעו בעיונם בכתבי האריז"ל...). it was omitted in certain editions (v'dal), but definitely doesn't make much of a difference to the tanya's overall point. the description here of the 'chabad shita' is a testament to the author's vast ignorance (of history too).
Monday, February 07, 2011 3:29:00 PM"
To clarify: The 2nd half of perek 7 was actually NOT in the 1st print of Tanya 5557 (or in all the reprints for over 100 years), & it was added only later (by the Rashab in his Vilna Ram print of 5660). The Nefesh haChaim was first printed AFTER the 1st few editions of Tanya. So this is in fact the very OPPOSITE of what this reshimeh brings in the name of R' Velvel Brisker. (See Mondshine's "Toras Chabad" p. 15; in footnote #48 there he adds that although this section was copied in many manuscripts throughout the years, it still was not printed until the Rashab's times in order not to offend the GRA's talmidim. IIRC, the Tanya Mahadura Kama [Brooklyn, 1981], which is an extensive comparison all the important Tanya manuscripts, DOES have this keta.)
Also to note, that the Rebbe ZY"A explained more than once that the deyeh of the "miktzas chachomim b'eyneyhem" in perek 7 is an eydeler k'fireh than the koyfrim mentioned in perek 2 who are called openly "minim." There's a whole arichus in this. I'm sure that whoever wants can find it in places like Chitrik's "Tanya b'tziruf Mareh Memoymoys," Korf's Likutim, etc.
Point being that efsher zaynen zey nisht mamesh koyfrim, ober "shogegu" zicher zaynen zey...
--ZIY
Ziy
Since we discuss censure and omitting of the early chasidic development era, we should mention that in the first print of Nefesh Hachaim was missing all the chasidim related paragraphs, and till today there are pieces that were not printed, and it his circulating between the inner circle only
anon --
nu...maybe join the vikileaks bandwagon & share these hashmotos...?
--ZIY
I am scared I will get arrested as Assange
You mean the eyrev rav of bnei brak will come after you? Ponovitzh doesn't have an extradition treaty with the ambassadors of the internet, because whatever happens on the internet is not chal on the real world. It's a matter of trey dinin, 2 separate gdorim, vd"l.
It would be good to have some juicy chasidim-bashing material to counter the Rashab's misnagdim-bashing in the hashmotos os "Toras Sholom" (the GRA was yonek from the S"M, etc. etc.).
-- ZIY
ZIY
Love you!
I"m a true Snag, but I respect as all true Litvack Snags do, a person who knows what they are talking about.
Where have you been posting lately since the untimely demise of 7fat?
Would love to see your opinion on certain subjects in Lubavitch history unearthed (or just pure conjecture)lately,but know that the blogmeister would not be happy to discuss.
Steven --
Thanks. Come to Chulent tonight & we'll talk... (the "7 fat cows" have become lean, so to speak, on the internet & have reverted back to old-fashion ponim-el-ponim rapport.)
If this is not possible, you can contact me via email. Perhaps, if Tzig is up to it, he can pass on to you my email address.
What specifically do you have in mind?
-- ZIY
wich print has a hashmata in shar hayichud
the other 9?
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