It's been a while since we discussed Munkacs. We had been talking about Reb Burechel's abdication of the throne and got sidetracked by more important issues, like the size of O Deutschs' peyos. Let's skip ahead and see what happens once Munkacser talmidim realize that RBYYR will no longer lead them, and they wouldn't want him even if he DID want! By now the older son was married to the daughter of Reb Ahron Bernshtein of Chayei Olam Yeshiva in J'lem and was ready to lead on his own. Although educated in Ohio's finest Torah institution, Reb Moshe Leib Rabinovich was a chassidisher yungerman, well-versed in the ways of his grandfather, despite never having seen him. In 5722/1962 the Munkacser Beis Medrash was founded in Boro Park and RMLR was invited to lead the congregants. [I'm told now that the poster is not from 1962, but rather from 1969, and that the Yeshivah was functioning for quite some time by then. It's just that the shul in BP was started then. Until then it was in W'burg, with Reb Moshe Leib serving as Rebbe there. ויש לעיין בזה.]I would imagine that the Talmud Torah was founded only later on, probably late 60s to early 70s. What's ironic is that at that time the Rebbe was considered tier two or three, but the cheder was a serious place, where many local kids went, despite not being affiliated with Munkacs. Today the opposite is true; the institutions have collapsed and basically died, yet the Munkacser Rebbe has "made it" after all those years.
No, my friends, I'm not poking fun at the Munkacser, I'm telling how people saw it, not Lubavitcher people, locals, people of Hungarian and Galician extraction, that is. Maybe the opinion was juvenile and unfounded, but that's the way the Oylem Goylem saw it. They saw him as the man with the biggest Menorah, the one who made as if he was a 90-year old tzaddik living in Poland. איי, why do we care what the Oylem Goylem thinks if we admit that it's "Goylem"? It's simple. Very often these are the opinions that accompany people for the rest of their lives. Ask people today what they think of the Munkacser and they may refer to the late minyanim available at his shul or to the tall menorah, but they may have very little to say about his Torah knowledge or his askanus tziburis. Why? because as children a Rebbe's level of learning was never important, it was all about the "Parenches" (bleachers) and the color of the Bekishe and the sons who are vying for control. And if that's the way he sees it as a child he often retains those opinions, no matter if he learned in Brisk on Rechov Peres, or by Reb Chaim Feinstein, or in Satmar Bayswater or in Lubavitch in Qiryat Gat.
The fact that by that time most of his zeide's surviving chassidim had defected to Satmar is another whole story...
67 comments:
It's not Rechov Peres, its Prounounced "Press"
Spinka was just sentenced to 24 months apparently.
What's your opinion??
"By now the older son was married to the daughter of Reb Ahron Bernshtein of Chayei Olam Yeshiva in J'lem and was ready to lead on his own. "
Older? Older than who. Of the five children of Rav Boruchel, only one was younger, the Dinover (I think). There was an older brother in Veinna.
it's P E R E S . look it up
my opinion? like, am I happy or sad?
Why are arguing about something you don't know?
It's Rechov Press.
"The Bais Din Tzedek of Agudath Israel, Moetzes HaKashrus, 2 Press Street," copied from Google
a) it's common knowledge.Just like Houston street in Manhattan prounounced "how sten" as opposed to the city Houston that is pronounced "hyoo sten" This is picked up when you live in a city
"my opinion? like, am I happy or sad?"
I"m not choished that you are happy (though if he was a snag or a sakmor....)
So, in general what is your opinion about this sad turn of events.
Unless you meant happy because it sounds like a relatively short sentence.Is that what you meant?
From google
"Oct 22, 2009 ... The following collection of pictures is from the chavrusah tumult held this week at Yeshivas Brisk on Rechov Press in Yerushalayim, ..."
google quoting matzav and YWN
mamesh a shtarke rayah....
Hirshel,
Please.Ask anybody who ever learned in Brisk or stayed in Malon Hamercaz or whatever.
The only reason I corrected you is cuz you would sound silly if you said the name of a well known street in Geulah, wrongly, while claiming mevinus.
Twisty
I said older, not oldest
veDaL...
Twisty,
R'Boruchel had some more kids from a second marriage after his wife passed away.The Oldest son, who the Minkatcher used to call "my Hirshaleh" passed away a few years ago.During the War as a child he suffered terrible trauma that he never recovered from.
One sister lives in the Five Towns, with her husband
what I think about the Spinka verdict?
I'm hurt, upset, disappointed. I heard that it was a done deal, that he'd get three years, and that he signed off on it already. I had heard that it was only a matter of formality that there would be a sentencing, but no surprises. So I guess in that sense you might say I'm happy that he go only 2 years...
"I'm hurt, upset, disappointed."
In the court system or in the leadership of the rebbe?
I'm no "Mah Yofis'nik."
obviously in the sentence.
Oh.Ok.
I"m not sure why you are hurt and disappointed though.To me it sounds that he got a very light sentence.
I think he is a good man that made a mistake, but to think that the Gitteh Feter would let him get away scot free is to live in oilem hadimyon.It also shows that bowing your head, accepting blame and showing remorse is the way to go with the Feter,this is the Minkatcher connection.He is one of the big mevinim,REAL,mevinim in the legal system of the Feter.This is what he would have told the Spinker (i'm pretty sure the spinker asked for his advice on this)
Unfortunately the Minkatcher flew down to Iowa and got a deal for Rubashkin that was not taken (cuz Lubavitch have their "mevinim" who are silly.They think that one should always show "umordechai loh yichrah" even when they are clearly wrong
An update from Bechadrei Chareidim, claims that the chasidim are in shock and the Rebbe terribly depressed.
I say this is pure nonsense, unless we are dealing with people who have read to many fantasy books.
Two years is looong and horrible,BUT,I'm sure he"ll get to be in a white collar prison, maybe Otisville, where there are quite a number of inzereh (one of the few places that Sakmoiem,Lubob and others get along well).Maybe a lawyer on the site will be able to advise if he gets a third off for good behavior.Could be that he"ll be in a halfway house a year after he starts the sentence.
Terrible, but he could have gotten a REALLY nasty sentence
You can compare the spinka crime to the rubashkin crime by looking at the criminals and how they acted after they were caught. The spinke rebbe showed remorse and apologize. He didn't fight and allege anti semitism. He will do his time respectfully and the chillul hashem will end. And in fact has taken steps to try to repent for his actions and chillul hashem. Rubashkin on the other hand has gone down fighting. Even his battle of fighting by accusing more anti semitism has caused more chillul hashem. One cannot stand by and not notice.
One cannot stand by and not notice.
one cannot help but realize that people have no sense of reality anymore. How everything is the same tothem. How black is white and how apples are oranges.
I think the poster made a good point which I agree with.
It's the unfortunate truth.
Have to be clear that I am a shliach and have learned that many times es geyt nit mit keyach.
Can't out myself.South Florida shliach.
Reb Shliach
do us a favor and stick to Menorah lightings and Friendship Circles. VeDal.
- New York shliach
Did not mean to step on anybody but believe that we made a mistake in Iowa.Could have been taken care of many times before the Gov got involved and could have even made a deal with the prosecution.S.Fl shliach.
שליח יקר
how do you know what they could've done? were you on SMR's legal team?
First of all the "MUNKATCHER" (as it is spelled today) rebbi no longer uses the large menorah since he aquired the menorah of the bnei yisoscher a few years ago and it is actually pretty small secondly munkatcher derech has never been to grow and expand their influance we beleve that whoever feels that their "shorash neshomah is in munkatch will with a little tfillah find his way to us even the chasidim between themselves would rather it remain small in order to be able to have a more personal relationship with this great man. I urge everyone to go in for a kvittel once and speak with him in any subject whether niglah, nistar l'havdil worldly things medicine, technolgy finance or world news and you will be amazed by his strong grasp and vast expertise in almost every subject.
Hirshel,
You realize surprise me sometimes.Like in this case with Rubashkin where you are always defending the way the case was handling and sometimes going as far as mocking people who think a grave mistake was made in the way it was handled.
Let us check the results,k?
He was found guilty on almost all counts!Doesn't that tell you that the case was mishandled??The Goverment got much more than they even dreamed of! In fact they gave up the second immigration case because it's already a waste of time in their eyes, they have "peyled ays" what they wanted.
Is there anybody with half a brain that does not realize this?That if "worse case scenario" happened, than we did something wrong with how we handled the case!
What is your misguided attempt to defend this kind of stuff? Kovod Lubavitch??
If it pains you so much to discuss this case either a)Shut up b)talk tzum zach.
my dear Avi
I never defended how anything was done. All I'm saying is that comparing a Rebbe's sentencing to SMR, and saying that the end results show one was mishandled and the other was done brilliantly, is ludicrous.
Is that "tzum zach" or do I shut up?
Hirshel,
Comparing the Rebbes case to R. is not ludicrous at all.Fact is the Spinka case was basically cut and dried breaking of the law, the only question was how long a sentence.Rubashkin they had to go through a lengthy court case to prove, so a deal would have been easier to cut.
I'm referring to the way you addressed the case when it broke, before it even went anywhere.Before anybody even had a "hava aminia" that Rubashkin would be bankrupted and SMR would, nebach be in tzores.
You just mirrored the kind of tipshes talk in the local mikva
oh well, I guess I'm not as smart as you and your Ivy League law school education...
If the advice you give your clients with their dealings with the .I.R.S is anything similar to the Rubashkin advice , you are correct.
I never advised Rubashkin, we're talking after the fact here.
sheesh.
Hirshel,
Check your blog.You were getting into fights long ago, when PETA started snooping around,then slowly Rubashkin at the "advice" of a bunch of Gechozys advanced slowly down a dark pit, before the raid, after the raid before the Gov was taunted into proving they had a case.Even by not trying to get that meshugener Shmarya Rosenberg, to get off their case.
Many mistakes.Probably one of the dumbest was claiming it's Anti-Semitism.
Maybe they get someone on the appeal who has some seichel?
ok Avi
since you're soooo smart, and have it all down pat, why not you volunteer and do some pro bono work for the Rubashkins?
Lets talk about Tropper!
Munkatcher
"aquired the menorah of the bnei yisoscher "
I think its the Darkei Teshuva menorah
Munkatcher
"econdly munkatcher derech has never been to grow and expand "
I tought the Title on the Minchas Eliozer was "RASHKEBEG " in all of his seforim?
your reason is the last resort excuse for a failure, for a chassidus that had 100's of survivors after the war and they are gone..from these survivors he should off have at least 2000 families, and he is down to 40 families, please don't try to portray Munkatch as some Kotzk
avi,
Whats all this nonsense with the comparison? The US is a huge country and every day there are decisions in Federal crimes, why is Rubashkin slaughterhouse case compared to Spinker Rebbes Kolel,Yeshiva, because they both have black yarmulkes.
here we go
Reb Baruchel had 5 kids with the first wife, 2 with the second
1) hershele o.b.m
2) chaim eluser presently residing in Jerusalem
3) Munkacser Rebbe
4) Diniver Rebbe
5) a daughter married to Willamovsky residing in lawrence
1) a son Yair
2) a daugter o.b.m
the Rebbe lights in a couple menorah's
1) his own, the large one
2) the darkei teshovah, a very smll one
3) a regular size, that his father got from Reb Yankele komarner when he was engaged
aaaah munkatch
Now you got your groove back
Back on topic, after the SR was niftar (5739) everyone thought it was the munkatchers turn. He had the infrastructure, the name and $$$$ from his father's shearis hapleitah (teichman, estreicher, etc.) To put it bluntly, he blew it. His 11:30 AM davening, crying during toirahs didn't fly with the 2nd generation americans and his yeshiva dwindled to not much and his cheder was overrun by other chasidishe schools that offered standard chareidi chassidishe fare without the shtick.
As munkatcher correctly pointed out, he is the go-to guy for legal issues, financial questions, even some medical stuff. He's helped numerous people (including some relatives of mine) with free advice that top dollar lawyers couldn't come up with. Unfortunately it doesn't translate into a "hoif" and he's been relegated to a has-been. It's a loss since he has alot to offer. His kids are already fighting over the yerusha of what's left, so we'll see how this plays out.
Anonymous: "I thought the minchas eluzer was raskbhag" The minchas eluzer WAS raskb"hag but not because he asked to be but rather he was seen as the raskb"hag. he did not sign his name as raskbhag bur rather as avda"k minkatch v'haglilos the minvhas eluzer himself writes in his sefer chaim v'sholom (i think parshes v'ychi) that the way a person finds a rebbe is where he feels his shoresh is and as for the munkatchers that survived the war the reason most of them didny end up in munkatch is because #1 there wasent any munkatcher rebbi after the war untill the present rebbi took over about 15 years later #2 they felt it was pogeah in r' boruch'ls kovod but the true munkatcher chassidim like r' chaim ber the gabbi of both the darkei tshuvah and the minchas eluzer came back to munkatch as soon as there was a rebbi
who are the current munkatcher rebbes children?
"I urge everyone to go in for a kvittel once and speak with him in any subject whether niglah, nistar"
by whom did he learn nistar? surely he didn't learn it in telz.
Tzig, did you not notice my name? I rarely comment, but when I do- please take it seriously. We already established in previous posts that it is PRESS, not PERES, so why do you have to make a fool of yourself and involve others as well.
Your silence on the EJF affair (p i) is deafening.
what do you mean (p i)?
we established no such thing. the street signs say PERES, all you have for proof is ------- nothing.
Where did u see the sign saying PERES and not PRESS??
eVERYONE IN yERUSHALAYIM CALLS IT rechov press.Is that good enough?
Avremel
what deal did the Munkatcher Rov shlitah do with rubashkin what was not taken
Auf simchaes
Anonymous said...
Munkatcher
"secondly munkatcher derech has never been to grow and expand "
I tought the Title on the Minchas Eliozer was "RASHKEBEG " in all of his seforim?
your reason is the last resort excuse for a failure, for a chassidus that had 100's of survivors after the war and they are gone..from these survivors he should off have at least 2000 families, and he is down to 40 families, please don't try to portray Munkatch as some Kotzk
In response to your comment: You are obviously an outsider looking in. Now take it from an insider looking out. Munkatch’s derech has never been one of organization and expansion. Munkatch Pre WW2 was never an organized “army” of chasidim. In all of Europe there was not one Munkatcher shtibel or kloiz outside of Munkatch itself, eventhough the Minchas Eluzar certainly had chasidim or yidden that “held” of him. There never was a set levush for munkatchers – take a look at the pictures from Europe and today in America, they come in all shapes and sizes. Anyone who knows anything knows that the ME opposed any type of “organization” including his own chassidus. Famous Munkatcher chasidim who lived in Minkatch proper are known to have never ever attended a tish of the ME. Most didn’t daven in his small Beis Medrash in the hoif but rather in other shtiblach and shuls that maybe finnished earlier etc. That was Minkatch and that continues to be Minkatch. The rebbe shlit”a may have a relatively small crowd of “regulars”, but has admirers and “unhenger” in the thousands who rely on his brachos and advice.
Now to the question why Minkatch didn’t flourish after WW2. There are numerous reasons. Firstly, Reb Burechl’s abdication at a time when yidden needed Rebbes the most (post war) to comfort them and help them rebuild their shattered lives, was the biggest “broch” for Munkatch. Most of the survivors got comfortable in Satmar (the next best thing to Minkatch) and sent their children to the satmar yeshivos. As the saying goes, “tzurik geit a kozze”. Also, the fact that the current Rebbe follows his grandfathers teaching from sefer Chaim V’Sholom on how to be a Rebbe added to this factor. The ME writes in CV parshas vayakhel: how shall a leader in klal yisroel conduct himself? There are tnoim: #1 do not try to collect people who will hear your words, #2 not to make propaganda thru your people and shluchim, #3 hate the rabbonus. (for the original text: http://munkatcherseforim.org/pdf/mincheaelazer/chaim%20veshalom.pdf
Check it out, its amazing!)
The fact is that the Rebbe shlit”a is occupied full time with helping yidden, not just Munkatcher yidden, but Satmar, Lubavitch, Litvish, Sfardish etc. even Belzer. He helps people who have in the past spat in his face. A Rebbe in todays day and age, who wants to “succeed”, must be fully occupied with building his chassidus, “pravening” etc. People who are helped by the rebbe are never “followed up” on by the gaboim, nevere are solicited for money or support, are never asked to join a tish etc. It’s kulo Lshem Shomayim.
The reason there are all the stupid comments are either because people are jealous or because they simply can not understand. The fact that the Munkatcher rebbe takes a front row seat in the ranks of our Gedolim and Rebbes is a testament to the fact of his personal greatness and not because of his “numbers” or “ratings” by the “oilem goilem” as Tzig put it.
off topic (sorry):
גוט יום טוב!
דידן נצח!
I have to say that my appreciation of this day and its significance grew exponentially over the last few years as I got to read on various blogs what the supporters of the other side have to say on this subject.
Munkatcher chosid
The heilger rov did not need a army he had soldiers who were prepared to fight for him and his causes in fire and wasser with a mesiras nefesh
I know of a town in pre war Hungary where the moro dasra was not to the likeing of the heiliger rov a few munkatcher Chasidim made sure that the moro dasra left very quickly the town (the stropkover rov was so upset about this story that he was gozer tanis)
A munkatcher chosid was a fighter for yidishkeit where ever he was I know in pre war kashau a few munkatcher Chassidim caused quite a bit of trouble for the local balei batim
Even today some of the biggest trouble makers in the satmar fight aron and zalman leib are munkatcher
the munkatcher rebbe shlita is regarded in the kanoish world as the rebbe who has not changed, he hs the same derech as someone said munkatch is KANOES with a smile
Munkatcher
"but rather he was seen as the raskb"hag."
He was not seen as a Raskibihag by no one, chassidim he had very little, Visnits Spinka and Belz had in the town of Munkatch Kehilois as big as his whole Rebisteve, But he made a lot of noise, went till Ger to fix Poland when he had a lot of work in his backyard,
Munkatcher,
"r' chaim ber the gabbi of both the darkei tshuvah and the minchas eluzer"
did the Shoproner, Reb dovid Klien, Reb Itche Sternhall etc.. come too?
Munkatcher,
"over about 15 years later"
look what happened to Rachmistrivke in the USA and in Eretz hakodesh, it had a comeback 100 years later..
Munkatcher,
"over about 15 years later"
look what happened to Rachmistrivke in the USA and in Eretz hakodesh, it had a comeback 100 years later..
munkatcher chosid
"ME opposed any type of “organization”
he opposed the Machzikei Hadas of Reb Shimon Sofer and Reb Yeshua of Belz ?
did he oppose the Hungarian Kantzelei ?
Anonymous: "Chasidim he had very little" you sure dont know your history not when belz spinka or ger Made chasunah did the the goverment open the border even without passports because the sheer amount of people that came estimated at 10,000
Anonymous: keep em' comin'... Keep taking my words out of context
Gut yom tov,gut yom tov
Didon notzach!!!
Lubavitch won a war against its own existence.Had we lost Lubavitch may have ceased to exist.
Why not blog about this?
Didon notzach vegam rotzach.feh
Munkatcher Chosid,
Do you know that that power in the Kehilah were not his chassidim,
please don't milk the Chasuna for more then it was, he gave meals for a full week,do you know how poor people were in that region? every Orche Porche from Unterland was there. I love the holy Munkatcher, his Torah and his style, but lets not confuse the facts of him and his grandson,
please do not confuse the comments of ''munkatcher'' and ''munkatcher chosid''. they are two different people
Minkatch's power thru the ages from the Bnei Yissoschor thru Rabeinu Shlit''a has never been the numbers, but the qualities of the Admorim. The Rebbe shlita is a power-house. Krachtz Avek!!!!
One thing is for sure that the heilger rov some sixty years later seem to upset SOME People
The ME was never a pleaser or an appeaser. He did what was right and looked only at the emes.
Anon,
"The(Krechnifer RebbeZiedel) Rebbe shlita is a power-house. Krachtz Avek!!!!
Munkatcher Chosid
"looked only at the emes"
was crowning Reb Borechel in his will for Rebbe, the only emes ? or half a Emes? he had talmidim as Reb Nute Shloma etc.. that were geonim vetzadikim, but he chose the "Emes"
Reb Nute Shloime was a ibergegebene chusid of Reb Burechel.....
>>He was not seen as a Raskibihag by no one, chassidim he had very little, Visnits Spinka and Belz had in the town of Munkatch Kehilois as big as his whole Rebisteve, But he made a lot of noise, went till Ger to fix Poland
Please explain the numerous quotations of ME in all contemporary Shu"t seforim - Yabia Omer, Minchas Yitzchok, Tzitz Eliezer, etc. (even Avnei Nezer – quotes ME Chelek 1) and the comparable lack of any mention of his contemporaries of Visnitz, Blez, Spinka and Ger combined....
כידוע פאר יודעי דבר האט דער הייליגער רב ז"ל געהאט גאר אסאך חסידים, נאר אזוי ווי דער דרך אין מונקאטש וואס האט זיך קיינמאל נישט געטוישט זענען זיי געוועהן גאר באקוועמע מענטשן אין פלעגן נישט אלץ קומען נישט צו די טישן און נישט צום דאווענען.
דער הייליגער רב זצ"ל האט נישט ליב געהאט ווען עס זענען געקומען צופיל מענטשן, און ער פלעגט אלץ זאגן פאר ר' חיים בער פארוואס זענעןגעקומען אזוי פיל מענטשן דארט, מען שטערט מיר, און אזוי אויך רבינו שליט"א איז ממשיך אויף דעם דרך ער האט נישט ליב ווען עס קומען צופיל מענטשן, ער טוט נישט גארנישט וואס זאל מאכן אז זיינע מענטשן זאלן קומען צו די תפילות און טישן אזוי ווי אנדערע אדמורי"ם טוען, ער העלפט ארויס אידן וואס האבן איהם געשפיגן אין פנים פארדעם, און שפייען אים אין פנים ווייטער נאכדעם, ווייל ער טוט וואס ער האלט איז ריכטיג
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