Tuesday, December 29, 2009

They're killing us!



It seems like the chassidim were to blame for all the death that was happening in 1771 in Vohlin, Valachia and Podolia. Which is why - according to a new study - the che"s on the Chassidim was issued soon after, in 1772. At least that's what the bosses in Vilna told the masses there. The author of the article linked above uses lots of (admittedly, circumstancial) evidence, like the fact that the four main kehillos in Lita: Grodno, Brisk, Slutsk and Pinsk did not heed the call of the Parnossim of Vilna to excommunicate the Kat, to prove that they used it as a pretext in an internal Vilna dispute about the appointment of a new Rov there. They TOLD the people that the che"s was gonna save them from G-d's wrath. This was also the reason why the Gaon of Vilna would not see Reb Mendele Horodoker (Vitebsker) and the Alter Rebbe when they came knocking on his door. the fact that the huddled masses were davening late using a new nusach, and not respecting the Talmidei Chachomim? Really, they could care less about that. If you remember, back in '92 Yehoshua Mondshein was called an Apikores by the powers that be in Bene Beraq for saying that the Gr"o could have been manipulated by the fatcats in Vilna.

Listen to RYBS of Boston as he discusses 19 Kislev, The Gaon and Chabad.

Bekitser, it's all politics, always has been....

73 comments:

snag said...

Vos 'new study', ven 'new study'? Why don't you elaborate - like what is the name of it, who wrote it, where can it be found, is it online....

Anyway, not every 'new study' from some student or professor is 'Teyras Mayshe' you know....But I guess if it fits in with your agenda of snag bashing, it gets an enthusiastic reception at Tzig HQ and in 'kan tzivoh' and its diaspora.

I don't understand what you are saying anyway. Maybe the gedeilim felt that the transgressions you cite ('davening late using a new nusach, and not respecting the Talmidei Chachomim') made Klal Yisroel vulnerable physically then (Rachmono litzlon).

Instead of snag bashing, maybe you should post about New Square. Is the place falling apart? Mass demonstrations two nights in a row, poultry plant shut down in wake of troubling allegations.

Another idea for a post - R. Yisroel Friedman who was niftar last week and R. Sholom Ber Gurary. Comparisons and contrasts. Both Rebbishe kinder/einiklach who went in different ways. I nominate Schneur to write that one.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

maybe study isn't the correct term, but the article was written by Aryeh Morgenstern, who studied the Meshichist phenomenon with Talmidei HaGro and the Keytz of 5600.

I hear your ideas and thank you for them. I may even take you up on them!

they were right said...

"maybe study isn't the correct term, but the article was written by Aryeh Morgenstern"

Do "we" know who Aryeh Morgenstern is???
Learn how to right a cogent thought.

"Moondshine was called an apikores"?

When, why by whom?
"by the powers that be".Do they have a name?
If anything Moondshine was called a kool-aider

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I'm not sure how to "right" a cogent thought. can you help me, Mr. Professor?

thrywereright said...

Again I don't understand how a dirty piece of dung like yourself sees themselves as a defender of The Chasidic group.Don't you realize that if they need a neanderthal like you to defend them its quite terrible??

theywereright said...

Right an historical wrong you can?
Keep on bringing up ancient history and we"ll keep checking up on your yiches

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

right "they were right" and you not responding to the topic here, and calling me here very "grown up" names, that shows how confident YOU are with the position of the people you supposedly respect, right???

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

my yiches, eh? oh kayyy.

theywereright said...

Listen,I"m confident that had some of the followers of the chasidic movement, people like R'Schneour Zalman of Liady seen what Lubavitch would turn into, a messianic meshigeneh cult, they would never have promoted this nonsense.
So, yeah.

Ma rabbi said...

Hirshel,
Why bring up controversial topics that are going to cause fights?

Chaim said...

All these "historians" have an agenda.Whichever side you are on

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Ma Rabbi
so you would have me discuss healthcare and the Obama administration instead?

Ma rabbi said...

Hirshel
You get all sensitive when you get attacked but don't realize that if you bring up a controversial subject you"ll get attacked.Besides you"ve beaten this subject to bits for years and it's boring already.
I wish this blog could be be more lively with real issues.I live in 2010 in a day or two and these past issues are truthfully not relevant, even as a Lubavitcher.

Anonymous said...

It seems to me that there are more dissimilarities between R' Yisroel Friedman and Barry Gourary than similarities. R' Yisroel always stayed very connected with the Boyaners, while R' Sholom Dov Ber obviously did not with the Lubavitchers. R' Yisroel was never one to be controversial, where as Barry knew he was stirring it up with the library conflict. R' Yisroel was certainly an observant Jew throughout his life, but I really am not sure about Barry.
I would really be interested in hearing comments regarding a personality about whom I would like to learn more - Rabbi Shmaryahu Gourary, zt"l. Has he been forgotten by the modern day Lubavitch, or is he held in high esteem or not. I know he was loyal to the 7th Rebbe throughout, even though he was in the running to be the 7th Rebbe. Does he have a legacy? Are there any in the current leadership that were close to him? I fear that he has been largely forgotten. itchiemayer

Yitzchok said...

May I as a Lubavitcher shed some light for people from other circles?
Lubavitch=Rebbe and Rebbe=Lubavitch!
We don't sit down and analyze people even people who had the merit to marry the Frierdiger Rebbes' daughter!
Yes, the Rasha"g was a choshuveh respected person, but no, he was not the Rebbe.
End of story.
Next.

shimon said...

Tzig,

maybe write a post about the Alter Rebbe and how was he uninformed and manipulated to write his letters about the Tolker chassidim and how it was all cheap politics...

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

well, hotshot, you provide the letters and documents and I'll write the post. deal?

ירמי said...

מספרים ששלוטונות בריה"מ לשעבר היו שולחים תמיכה כספית קבועה למוסודות ליובאוויטש וסקווירא על היותם שגרירים נאמנים לקומוניזם בארה"ב.

אוי א בראך! קאמיניסעם גייט אונטער מיט געפערליכע גערודער!

Anonymous said...

"well, hotshot, you provide the letters and documents and I'll write the post. deal?"

Sorry, did not see you post any letters or documents to prove your case here.Am I mistaken??
Oh, how about the story with R'Burechl fin Mezhibuz ?What was that, politics or money?

Anonymous said...

Tzig,
While you are posting stories about ancient politics etc do you mind posting the details about the Wienstock Estate?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

you guys are just too funny.

It's not like I was going around, digging up old stories. This is current, at least as fat as the revelations go!

yehupitz said...

Money is always related and power/politics is always related. But that's no reason to be cynical. All it means is that the underlying philosophical debate would not be able to last in Olam Hazeh if it wasn't connect to a dovor gashmi.

Meaning, the disputes over the highest abstractions only have real-time consequences when the lowest of the low have a stake in it as well. I don't think that negates the value of the etzem machlokes in hashkafa.

Anonymous said...

Stop trying to cover up on a crummy ,stupid post.
You have nothing but machloikes to write about.You are a nifrod

shimon said...

I refuse to believe that you don't have Mordechai Wilenskys sourcebook.

Also look at the letters of Reb Mendel Vitebsker.

Also see Rayatz's Avos Hachassidus.

a yid from BS said...

In all doros the misnagdim were moiche on anything higher than them - people with madreiges they couldn't even imagine. The chasidim were the ones coming out to make peace.
When will they finally learn their rightful place in judaism [talmudic colleges around the world], and leave yiddishkeit for the chasidim to take care of.
Let's come out with a brief biography of "mi neged mi" [excluding the gra of course - see toldos hakedushas levi bshem the minchas eluzer], and not be confused with the identities of the 2 sides.

Anonymous said...

Theywereright
would you put the blame of the talmidie talmidie hagra(2nd generation only) that converted to chritianity in Eretz Yisroel(according to Morgenstern there were many)at the foot of the Gra???

Anonymous said...

Anon 4;28
Is rabbi Gurary more fascinating then the older Brothers of reb Yehusoa of Belz? or the older brother of Reb Yisoscher Dov of Belz? or the older brother of Reb Chaim Mier of Visnitz?he was less an interesting figure thent all the above,did you study their history already?

Anonymous said...

Morgenstern is a very qualified historian, he is not liked by the academia in Israel since he stepped on the toes of many Holy cows in the old school

snag said...

The fact is that you Hirshel are distorting what the article says (I note that you changed your earlier headline for this post to the more sensationalistic one you have now, by the way. Maybe you can get a job writing headlines for the NY Post or Daily News or even the esteemed National Enquirer). The article does not say, as you conclude, "Bekitser, it's all politics, always has been....", nor does it support such a conclusion.

Morgenstern (derech agav, I bet that he is descended from Hassidim, that is a Paylisher name, was the last name of the Kotzker Rebbe, etc., and those who read his work should keep that in mind) admits that there was/is a machlokes lishem shomayim. He just questions certain aspects of it, claims it was affected by a different machlokes, etc. But to say that it was ALL politics? No, he doesn't say that.

The fact is that it is obvious that it's not 'all politics' as you would like to say, or all due to a mageifoh of long ago. The fact is that other kehillos did join Vilna in it later (maybe at first they didn't realize the extent of the danger). The fact is that hisnagdus continued and continues long after the other machlokes was forgotten. Kol machlokes shehi lisheim shomayim seyfah lishiskayeim, azei vi es shteit in Pirkei Avos......

The GR"A, as was recently mentioned by another commenter, was a kluger Yid, and he didn't want to get used by Lubavitch, as, lihavdil, R. Steinman and R. Berel Povarsky were recently, when they were publicized meeting with R. Yoel Kahn, as tools of Lubavitch Inc. trying to break into segments of the frummeh velt where it has been kept away previously. So he refused to meet with the Chassidim, knowing that the Chassidim could claim that such a meeting meant that he was okay with them (R. Dov Eliach shlit"a says the same in sefer HaGaon).

So anyway, I know that you would like the machlokes to go away in gantzen, and pull the rug out from under the snags, so then you could get everyone to be mikabeil malchus of the Rebbe, but hey, you can't just make it disappear with the article you cite here, it doesn't fit. Maybe if you get some big magician, some big illusionist, he could make the snags disappear, but sorry, you ain't accomplished that feat yet.

Sholom said...

were can i hear the rest of RYBS's speech?

no one said...

The Gra did not sign the Cherm because of politics. Though I believe that the Besht and many of his talmidim were zadikim I still realize the Gra was quite aware of the panethism of chasidim and felt that it was not kosher.
Also there are enough connections between chassidut and the shatz to raise some major questions. in particular the main doctrine of chasidut of needing a zadik to get to hashem is direct from the shatz

Friendly Anonymous said...

The Chassidic movement has itself become that which it was formed in reaction to.

schneur said...

As a pseudo-academic myself , its important to know what the academic enterprise is all about.Its goal is to examine historical events using critical tools like primary sources of all sorts. If Chochmas Israel were to accept history at face value lots of scholars would be out of work. So in this case Morgenstern examines the conflict based on sociology and other external forces in the Vilna kehillo. I did not see , read or know anything about the article.
But lets face it according to the Frum way of thinking there are Machlokesen leshem shomayim with no negioth, but if you admit that humans are not divine , then all events center about human issues desires, ego , power , money etc. But if you accept that then other famous machlokesen fall into the same category as well, Belz- Munkatz, Sanz-Sadigur, Ger-Aleksander, Spoler Zaida, Savraner etc vs. Rav Nachman and so on , including many fights within Chabad over the centuries, its a slippery slope, if you get my drift.
Next Mondshine wrote his materials as a response to others who wrote against chassidim, fine scholar that he is , I showed his materials to a few Roshe yeshiva from Lita and they said a kehillo the way Mondshine describes greater Vilna could not have produced or spiritually maintained a heiliger Yid like the GRA. Thats an answer that should please the charedi world who do not accept the critical study of Jewish history.
To move on, Barry Gourary NEVER challenged the leadership of the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe. He just wanted a part of his grandfathers inheritance. Naniach even if you claim the rebbe was correct , the issue was muddled and not clear cut and Barry decided to take his share, perhaps a stupid move , but not exactly like opening a Beth Medrash in Monsey and proclaiming himself the Lubavitcher-Machnovker rebbe or the Chabad-Tchernobler-Rachmistrivker rebbe . Reasonable people will see my point.
of course for the leadersip of Chabad (Anshe Aguch) blurring the real issues was crucial.
Barry Gourary was as frum as Israel Friedman. Lets leave it at that. His - Gourary's - son in law Dr. Samuel Friedman MD (a cousin of the Late kashoier rav) is a right wing MO in Reaneck who just published a sefer in English with Divre Torah for baalabatim.Barry wore a tallis katan ate kosher was shomer shabbath etc.
I hear what some wrote here that the Rashag was as important as the brothers of some other rebbes. VEry good !That is a good point, but in contemporary Lubavitch , another brother of a rabbe who was not a son of a rebbe and was clearly non religious and perhaps negative towards yahadus is given a tremendous amount of recognition,(people name their keds after him !) so why not the Rashag who piloted ULY for 50 years and was in the bechina of Yehoshua Bin Nun in regards his shver. There is much more to say here, but lets leave it at that.

Anonymous said...

R' Schneur - Thank you so much for some enlightenment regarding R' Sholom Dov Ber "Barry" Gourary. I am very pleased that he remained observant, and that it has been perpetuated to the next generation. Also, you seemingly have confirmed my fears, that R' Shmaryahu Gourary, ZT"L has not been given the proper kavod.
This Jew in the midwest is not a Lubavitcher, but somehow I have forged a connection with R' Shmaryahu, probably having something to do with me being for the "underdog". I think it would be a tremendous zechus for R' Shmaryahu to have children be named for him within the Lubavitch world, a great kavod from the group to which he was loyal and devoted his entire life.

schneur said...

Anonymous.
i doubt the Rashag will ever receive the recognition he deserves, for obvious reasons.
Lehavdil Obama won the election not McCain and McCain will never make the presidential history works.
Frankly for many many years even a Chabad history buff like me did not know there was a 3rd son in law Reb Mendel Horenstein, and it was only when Deutsch published his books that official Lubavitch recognized him (prior to that I posit the only time he was ever mentioned in official Chabad publications in in Toldos Maharash) In general since 1994 there has been a significant relaxation in what is discussed in Lubavitch forums.

Anonymous said...

R' Schneur - I am a bit uncomfortable with the McCain comparison, because he and Obama are political adversaries. Didn't R' Shmaryahu prove his loyalty to his BIL, the Rebbe? In other words, once the successorship was decided, R' Shmaryahu didn't waiver in his support of R' Menachem Mendel, right?
I believe I read somewhere that Rabbi Deutsch attended R' Sholom Dov Ber's (Barry's) funeral, and remarked how sad it was that there was such a sparse gathering, and noone from Lubavitch attended.
Speaking of Rabbi Deutsch, does anyone know of a way that I can access his books without paying the going rate of $250 per volume?
I realize Rabbi Deutsch might be despised by many Lubavitchers, but that doesn't mean what he wrote is not correct. itchiemayer

joseph said...

In The Tents Of Chabad: B'oholei Chabad Vol. 1 (Hebrew)
by Shaul Shimon Deutsch
Mendelsohn Press 1995

73 copies left
http://www.jewishusedbooks.com/prodview.asp?idProduct=15674

russian chusid said...

R' Yisroel was never one to be controversial,... R' Yisroel was certainly an observant Jew throughout his life

OR YE?????NOT BEING MARRIED UNTIL 50 (He was not a shmitsyan, however, unlike some other rebbeshe kinder mit shvrtse zoken und lange peyos) AND READING KFIRA BOOKS und ligen in dem???? THAT'S A NORMAL THING by an observant person???

He was a quiet guy who did a lot of good things, that's true and he was b'etsem a voile, BUT NOT CONTROVERSIAL????

I gues you know nothing about Boyaner history.

schneur said...

The tents of Chabad was "authored" by Deutsch but in fact it is a English translation of a Yiddish book Di Gezeltin fun Chabad by a man of Geza Anash in Chicago whom the Rayaatz trusted . It was published in Chicago, it was a book very much loved by my late father . Rabbi Deutsch added very little new material .
Who would expect any Chabad people to attend Barry's funeral ? C"mon after the book trial he was forever banned and banished. When the Rashag died only afew Chabad people came to be menachem avel in NJ.
Rashag certainly paid lip service to his brother in law"s regime since I can recall which is the late 1950's , but I am unsure that this "loyalty" existed in the early 1950's and how much" tochen "this loyalty had.
the Rashag was a chasid of Lubavitch and its clear from his behavior in the Nesius fight, the book trial that he was always loyal to the Movement no matter who the rebbe was. If the rebbe were R. Shmuel Levitin he would be there too.Its this lack of ego that was a factor in him not becoming rebbe in 1950, as he did not have the requisite leadership skills and desire.
The Kramer family wanted to put the Rashag in his own chatzer after the events of 1950-51 but the Rashag was not a man of ego or derious of power rather a loyalist to chabad so he stayed as he did in the book trial, but do not read anything more into these actions.
A picture is worth a thousand words - take a look at the farbrengun pictures of any era and look at the Rashag and you will see what I mean.
Certainly in the last years he developed a certain deepr feeling for his brother in law.

vunder said...

"Frankly for many many years even a Chabad history buff like me did not know there was a 3rd son in law Reb Mendel Horenstein"

I am very surprised, R'Schneour.How did you find out about him?

Did you know about the rebbes brothers?

Anonymous said...

R' Schneur - I don't have pictures of the Rashag at Farbreingens. I have one picture with a man sitting to the right of the Rebbe (several feet away at the table, but noone between them), and I have thought that might be the Rashag. Maybe? He appears to be a distinguished looking man with a beard longer than the Rebbe's.
I would say you have confirmed my hunch that the Rashag was a great man.
To the Russian Chosid - I was not aware of controversy within Boyan...really? Sadly, I don't know Yiddish, so some of your post was lost on me, save for the fact that it didn't sound totally complimentary. itchiemayer

Anonymous said...

Shneur
I see that your apetite of discussing your rebbe Horah Hatzadik Reb Berry, couldn get you to commit to your last weeks resolution not to write on that subject anymore .I believe if you ever write a Magnum opus it will be on the subject of Dyslexic Rebishe Einikel Barry vs Doir Hasvhi.It will be a interesting book, Its my assumption that the publishing house that printed Horav Hagoan Reb Dovid Berger drekk will print your drekk too

"Barry Gourary was as frum as Israel Friedman. Lets leave it at that"
I have no idea how frum Mr Friedman was, but thats for sure that Barry was not a full fledge Shomer shabos, in the deposition by the library case it was proven that he visited gyms on shabos with his car, the Algaemiener had a copy of a phone he made on Shabos to Sechaik the driver of Rav Shach when it was still Shabos in the states, it looks you starting to forget the details of the case.

Anonymous said...

"Barry Gourary NEVER challenged the leadership of the 7th Lubavitcher rebbe."
I understand that Barry didnt challenge the Rebbes nesius by not learning his mamorim since he didnt lerarn the Ziedens neither , since he couldn't read it for his life,and it didnt interst him
but saying that he didn't oppose the nesius is a outright lie,and wouldn't expect Shneur to whitewash history, just 1 fact, was the Rebbe by his wedding? why not? but Reb Yisroel Friedman was working tirelessly for his nephew admorois by moral support and fund raising with Mesiras Nefesh.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
"history buff like me did not know there was a 3rd son in law Reb Mendel Horenstein"
When the Rebbe printed Sefer Hamamorims he put in a full page of Hazkorah for the Horenstien Bil, it seems that you are a boki only in the Maseh Bichlech and never by accident took a bichel chassidus in your hands.

Anonymous said...

"it seems that you are a boki only in the Maseh Bichlech and never by accident took a bichel chassidus in your hands."


Mayseh bichlach and chasides bichlach are the same

Anonymous said...

Shneur
".Its this lack of ego that was a factor in him not becoming rebbe in 1950 "
Did he fight for the Rebisteve for the first few years and months? yes or no? obviously after he lost,the majority of chassidishe yiden didn't go for him and stupid he wasn"t, he didn't want to have a shul in Monsey and asking people for Minyan, maybe the Malochim of Willi would take him, he picked up the white flag,but why are whitewashing it with your psychoanalysis portrayal of him as some quaker passive guy.

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
what exactly brought you to the conclusion that the Rashag was not a Mekusher in the Rebbe? do you have some insider info that we dont know? can you please share it?

Anonymous said...

Snag,
"knowing that the Chassidim could claim that such a meeting meant that he was okay with them"
if he would still make the Cherem after the meeting, you really think that Chassidim would spin it as a positive pegisha? and if he wouldn sto short of making a Cherem then the chasidim would be correct that he was influenced, I believe you give some credit for Reb Shneur Zalmen that he was capable to build his case well. even for the greatest of the great the Gro, I hope your snag logic would grant him some credits.

snag said...

I just listened to R. Yoshe Ber's talk via the linked site.

I find it humorous that you are promoting the talk as Teyras Mayshe, when we can see from the talk that RYBS didn't not have the full story about everything, case in point that he talks about the appearance of the baal hatanya, big forehead, etc., as if it is a real painting from his lifetime, when it has been shown that it wasn't so,was made later based on visage of a later,different Schneersohn, etc.

So if he was way off on that,he can be way off on other things too.

Anonymous said...

Shneur,
"another brother of a rabbe who was not a son of a rebbe and was clearly non religious and perhaps negative towards yahadus is given a tremendous amount of recognition"
Since the Rebbe became the Rebbe of Chabad then all his chasidim that were mekusher were out to give him a nachas ruach with what ever makes the Rebbe happy, may it be a name after his brother, You were never a chosid in real life you are just a outsider observer. Their is the famous sharfe vort of the FR(your Rebbes Ziede)about ahavas chasidim leraboim... its beyond beyond, you are like a Ger on that matter,also they probably wanted to give a aliya for his neshoma by naming yiddishe erliche kinder after him,maybe they got some sources that the neshoma will get a aliya from that. What kind of relation does a chosid have with dem Rebbens a shevoger? may he be the officer of Tomchei Temimim, get off that stupid bandwagon.The Belzer Rov gave less koved for the Bilgrayer Vedal..
-

Anonymous said...

Snag
he probably made a mistake since he was ostracized from the Daas Torah brigade that are infallible

russian chusid said...

To Anonymous:

To the Russian Chosid - I was not aware of controversy within Boyan...really?

there was never a controversy about a rabisteve- he never thought of becoming a Rebbe (that's for sure one of his malos).

His yidishkeit was a bit controversial, so was his marriage- lets leave it at that.

schneur said...

There is so much to say about Barry Gourary, Rashag, the rebbe etc but a blog is not the correct or appropriate place for this material. Also I am not interested in going therough the dirt.
Let me just note , I find it interesting that a chassidus that will be melanmed zechus on intermarried Jews (they are only over 1 aveirah) will not cut Barry slack that he was Shomer Shabbes hey as Chazal say maybe he did teshuva ?
The Rashag looking for a minyon , lets not kid ourselves many "gor chashuve Anash" supported him in 1950-51, and those of us of a certain age know their names.Who knows maybe 770 would have a hard time getting a minyon of Anash over 22 years.
I neither study Chassidus nor do I spend time reading memorial ads in such book certainly not Chabad books. There are better ways of using your time.
I still have to hear a reasonable reply why a Communist brother of a rebbe gets kavod melochim in contemporary Chabad but the Chadban of the Nasi hador he was CHASNA DEBEI NESIAH is completely ignored. Maybe I should not write this but you who claim to be a chasid call him a officer of the yeshiva ? Did you see the letter the Rayatz wrote about him ro Anash in Israel when the Rashag visited there i the late 1930's ? An officer of the yeshiva and then what exactly was the Rebbe before 1950 ? Now this is a real attempt to re write history like saying that who was Hillel paritcher a stikel meshulach Right ? At the very least honor both of them ?
My resolve was not to write about the machlokes of the seforim and rehash the stuff, but thats not a green light to atatck the man !

Anonymous said...

Schneur,
If you don't read memorials so I hope you also stopped reading Der Yid...
Try Daf Hayomi...

Anonymous said...

schneur,
u touche so many bases in one short post and I don't have time to cleanse you of your myths. The one thread thru it all is that you weren't/aren't around contemporary Chabad and obviously did not interact with the Rashag in a personal way. I did and your portrayal of him is way off.

#1 he wanted the Rabistava in 1950. Maybe his MIL and wife were pushing him but he definitely tried to make a play for it. It took 2-3 yrs for him to accept the reality and then he became the biggest chossid of his BIL. The Amshinover (R' Shimmele ZT"L) played a part in making sholom v'ein kan m'koimoi.

#2 Read the Rebbe's sichos of 13 Iyar (his brother's yartzeit). Most of them dwell on kabbalistic interpretations of his name and I have yet to find where the Rebbe talked openly about him. Nobody made him into some tzaddik and it was well known about his frumkeit etc. Since he was a brother, people named children for him, but kovod melochim is your fantasy.

#3 The Rashag was always respected for his work in the yeshiva. Some detroiters said nasty things abt him, and 95% of chassidim think they're nuts. Especially today when the whole thing is teetering on financial ruin, they are ersht talking about him in a new light how he kept the yeshiva solvent.

There's alot more to say and now is not the time.

oldtimer said...

"Nobody made him into some tzaddik and it was well known about his frumkeit etc. Since he was a brother, people named children for him, but kovod melochim is your fantasy."

You are making up stuff or are truly ignorant.As a Lubavitcher I don't want to get into this in public, but remember that Lubavitch is about truth to! I will not talk about this here,I will not criticize anything about Lubavitch in public, but also will not allow lies, even "good" lies about Lubavitch.
Since many people from non Lubavitch backrounds have become chasidim and mekushorim, which in itself is wonderful, but also truth and hagiographies are becoming rampant.Schneour is a guy who knows his stuff and anybody that kriegs with most of what he says is from the newer chasidim

Menashe said...

Why does R' YYB say that the Berditchiver rather than the Horodoker accompanied the AR to the Gaon?

Anonymous said...

Oldtimer
Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:06:00 PM
I'm anon 3:22:00 PM and with all my false humility my lubab yichus probably puts you and him together to shame. I'm born and bred, every one of my siblings is a geshvorine chossid of the Rebbe, and our family went thru major mesiras nefesh for hafotzas hamayanos.

Since we're spilling it all out, let's lay it down. When EZ printed the book about YAL, many people laughed at it. He took minor snippets of things he heard and built a house of cards. Vert doch di shailoh, how did kehos print it and the Rebbe gave it out too!!

Simple answer. The Rebbe said more than once that he takes no responsobility for what kehos prints and he doesn't have time to be magi'ah everything. Most of the kuntres is sichos the Rebbe said on 13 Iyar. The biography pages are NOT mugah and mostly it's EZ's chaloimois. BTW, the Rebbe said this even about likkutei sichos. Someone who worked on the sichos told me that you can be medayek in the toichon, maarei m'koimos, he'oros, shakla v'tarya of the sichos, but most of the diyukim people make on particular words are very lav davka.

oldtimer said...

Anon
I"m not mechulek with you.The amcho chosid, newish, bal teshuva or from other kreizen has been led to believe some stuff that is simply not true,even some children from the gezh have been swept up in this.When fremdeh challenge them they start been defensive and nasty.
We may share a similar backround but I think the difference between us is that I am not an apologist,I will not help people with an anti agenda out, but will tell the truth to mevakshei emes or at least be quiet.I"m not scared of what you call "snags", you have made everybody who disagrees into a "snag".Vloi hu, many have respect but just differ with us.Sometimes these so called "menagdim" step up to the plate when ana"sh are frozen in place, not knowing what to do, especially since we lost The Urim Vetumim,the Rebbe.Lifshitz from Monsey is an example of someone who disagrees, but is there "bimkoim she'eyn Ana"sh".
My father had very good friends from the Russian/Litvishe side, we had more in common with them than the American and Hungarian Jews

Anonymous said...

Oldtimer
the gemora says that Duvid Hameleh brought yp ythe neshoma of his son Avsholem from the 7 levels of hell,
since you and me are not Rebbes and Schneur neither,maybre the Rebbe had some rebbishe meisois to give a aliyas neshoma, Schneur is not forced to believe what by average Chosid it is no question that a rebbe has powers of tikun Neshoma,
RE Shneurs tirades,
He claims that he never read Memorial pages, but the Yemie Melech he definitely read, ( since he is obsessed with the Rebbes biography or hagiography which ever way he wants to phrase it)in the 3 volumes Horenstien is mentioned many times,

Anonymous said...

Oldtimer,
Stop with this nonsense, Chabad has a more open biography then any Chasidic/Misnagdic kehila, I would say they should of choke alot of info that they are Mefarsem.for instance all the letters of the Reshags fight for the Nesius is available, etc..Obviously there are fantasies too, Kach Hi Darkoi Shel Chasidim..

Anonymous said...

Schneur
Since you are the spokesman of the Beis Horav in exile, did you hear from your Rebbe (Barry) that the Rebbe stretched out a hand for peace after the case was closed?

Anonymous said...

Schneur
"Also I am not interested in going therough the dirt"
stop saying that, you are the person bringing the Reshag/Barry episode on a monthly basis

Anonymous said...

Scneur
" I find it interesting that a chassidus that will be melanmed zechus on intermarried Jews (they are only over 1 aveirah) will not cut Barry slack that he was Shomer Shabbes"
let me ask your rational side a few questions,
Whay was the Alte Rebbe Merachek Reb Aron Strasheler the last few years, After he wrote perek 32 in Tanya on the Chomer Hoinyan to love every Jew in any Matzav, Was Reb aron (probably his biggest talmud) worse then all these Jews?

Talmidie Habesht and the Bardichever Rov included, invented (or renergized) the concept of Ahavas Yisroel, so how come they were about to make a cherem against Misnagdim Gedolie yisroel? just because they were fighting them? are the less then the Posheter Yid?
The Belzer Rov in Yerushaliem was famous for his ahavas yisroel for every Jew Chiloni or C haradie, then how come he was mad at the Satmar Rov when he gave the infamous derosha against him in Yeroshaliem on Aron and the Egel ? he said whoever was there needs his forgiveness on a personal level and people came in the masses. So again was Satmar Rov less the all the Chilonom Mechalelie shabosim?
there are a lot of answers but if you don't know the simple answer then you are a simple idiot

Anonymous said...

Oldtimer,
This is anon 3:22 again. It seems u and I are on the same page, refusing to buy into the latest myths floating around. Sometimes when my kids repeat what they heard in school on various yuma d'pagras my hair stands up. My favorite is 22 shvat when my daughter came home with lipstick to color with bec of a halberstam story how the rebbitzen gave some lipstick to a visiting kid so he can color. Or how halberstam's kids said the mah nishtana at the seder. And the Rebbe told yisroel duchman a"h to davven simchas torah at the amud. And i can go on and on. Unfortunately that's the way it goes. B"H the internet can be used to dispell myths but then again u get sites like col, chinfo, to perpetuate them.

snag said...

"Anonymous said...
Snag,
"knowing that the Chassidim could claim that such a meeting meant that he was okay with them"
if he would still make the Cherem after the meeting, you really think that Chassidim would spin it as a positive pegisha?"

The Chassidim could then claim he really wasn't so against them, ha rayo he met them, ay cherem? 'politics'.

A bit more re R. Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik -

It is well known that he was corrupted in his youth by a Lubavitcher melamed, who, against the will and orders of his father R. Mayseh, who employed him, indoctrinated him with Lubavitch teachings.

For him to say a thing like claiming that the Gaon was afraid of the baal hatanya shows that he became shvach in his misnagdishe faith. Just to set the record straight.

Keveiydey bimkeimey munach, but he was a good darshan, with a very fertile imagination, and he departed from the misnagdishe consensus in this and other matters, so he should not be considered a misnagdishe spokesman.

Anonymous said...

Snag,
So the criteria of a Misnagdishe Spokesman is
a ignorant rigid ferd, never heard of a other viewpoint in his lifetime?

snag said...

"Snag,
So the criteria of a Misnagdishe Spokesman is
a ignorant rigid ferd, never heard of a other viewpoint in his lifetime?"

No, it is someone who keeps his misnagdishe head on, recognizes Lubavitch/Hassidic propaganda when he sees it, and treats it with the contempt it deserves.

Anonymous said...

Snag
" recognizes(potential) Lubavitch(Liadi)/Hassidic (truth)propaganda when he sees it"

Anonymous said...

Does chabad officially recognise that the Rebbe's brother was a mechalel shabbos befarhesia ?

Reb Yisrael Friedman like many Rebbishe kinder did not want to become Rebbe because many of the children of Rebbes immeadiately post war did not believe in chassidus any more. He was emotionally supportive of Boyan because of his emotional guilt and did not want the 'chain' to end with him, but on a persoanal level it did not stop him from living his life as he wanted.

Anonymous said...

Snag
It seems that reb Chaim Valoizhiner did
buy the Chassidic logic, wasn't as sophisticated as you, to see beyond the facade.
מולוזין כששאלו אותו למה איננו מצטרף למחלקת נגד החסידים ואיננו הולך
בדרכי רבו הגדול הגאון מוילנא זצוק״ל. רבנו חיים זצ״ל הביא ראיה מן המקרא
להחלטתו. בעקידת יצחק מספרת לנו התורה שבא הקב״ה בכבודו ובעצמו וצוד.
לאברהם אבינו שיקריב את יצחק בנו. אולם כשרצה הקב״ה להציל את יצחק, לא
בא בעצמו אלא שלח מלאך ה׳, ללמדנו שאסור לשחוט ישראל אפילו על פי צווי
מלאך ה׳ צבאות, רק עפ״י הקב״ה בעצמו, לא ע״י מלאך ולא על ידי שרף ו אבל
להציל נפש אחת מישראל, אפילו שהקב״ה בכבות ובעצמו צוה לשחטה, מותר
לשמע בקול מלאך. והמשיך הגאון רבנו חיים ז״ל: ״רבנו הגדול היה כמלאך ה׳
צבאות ממש, אבל זה לא די במחלקת כזו; בענין כזה נצרכים אנחנו להקב״ה
בכבודו ובעצמו״. [ב״בית רבי״ הובא דבר זה בשם הגאון ר׳ רפאל הכהן
מהמבורג, בעל תורת יקותיאל. אבל אבי הגאון הצדיק סיפר לי זה מרבנו חיים
מולוזין, ואבי היה תמיד מעורר אותי על חשיבת אהבת ישראל העומדת ברומו
של עולם היהדות.]

Anonymous said...

Anon
after Yechi they also say 3 times a day
"Arye Lieb mechalel shabbos befarhesia"
now you feel better?

snag said...

In response to comment above of Monday, January 04, 2010 8:38:00 PM -

I am aware of that story, but cute as it is, I don't buy it.

1) Putting in cheirem is not the same as a tzivui to shecht/make an akeidah.


2) If you go by that logic, then take out the halochos of putting in cheirem and change it to 'must be commanded straight from the Ribbono shel olam'. I don't think Lubavitchers have altered the shulchan oruch in that way.

3) I notice in the latest post, talking about the asoro biteves eaters in Australia, that no Lubavitchers are protesting the strong action against them using this logic. So obviously when it comes to snags, convenient for Lubavitchers, they come up with such stories, but when they want to, they do it anyway.

P.S. Rav Dov Eliach shlit"a in sefer haGaon has a different explanation for why R. Chaim Volozhin wasn't signed on it. R. Chaim was not in Vilna, where the cheirem was issued, he was elsewhere, and in a very small town to boot. They didn't go around to every shtetl collecting signatures. There were no cars, telephones, fax machines, e-mail, etc., in those days if you recall, by the way.