Monday, August 13, 2012
The "Rosh" speaks
HaRav Ezra Binyomin Shochet is the Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivas Or Elchonon Chabad in Los Angeles, Ca. He is an alumnus of Ner Yisroel, Lakewood's BMG and Yeshivas Brisk in Yerushalayim. Here he is seen speaking this past Motzoei Shabbos at the annual Yarchei Kallah at Camp Gan Yisroel in Parksville, NY.
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135 comments:
Hirshel
thanks, he is Geshmak...
What's the name of the man sitting on his left side (right side of screen) ?
I miss him...
Sorryy Tzig, but ולא הקפדן מלמד is also Torah.
He should be writing Seforim, not in a Yeshiva with students.
When the whole scandal in the MO world Re. Rabbi Binah was taking place, it reminded me of a R"Y in OEC who from what I was always told by guys who have learnt there, would be מלבין פניהם ברבים as often as he would go out for a cigarette.
Ge'onus shme'onus are gurnisht vert oyb s'felt....
See Hayom Yom of 8 Menachem Av.
Let's not forget the ethics of Pirkei Avos, also a chelek of mishnayos.
He is an alumnus of Ner Yisroel, Lakewood's BMG and Yeshivas Brisk in Yerushalayim.
..שוין אלעס פארענטפערט
Rabbi Wilschanky. RY of Morristown NJ.
Mendel, what did he do now?! Did he name anybody???
seems like "Mendel" was once told off by a farbrengen by the Rosh...
Tzig, now that I say the following, you'll attack me from the other way.
I in fact never man the man before, it's all only from what I've been told by multitudes of his students. And I gotta tell ya, must (stress on most, not all) of them actually don't dislike him. But you know what? That was the same story with this Rav Binah fellow (if you don't know, read up, The Jewish Week did extensive coverage).
This is the antithesis of the style of the Rebbe, eidelkeit/mentchlechkeit/middos are number one and come before all the ge'oynus business.
This is all superfluous, do I have to teach you? Go back to zichronos, to the sichos of the Rebbe Rayyatz etc..
http://dusiznies.blogspot.com/2012/08/dov-berish-englander-dies-while.html
Is the moral of the story to stick to Chladudno? R' Berish Englander from Stamford Hill drowned last week off the coast of Aberystwyth, Wales. A little earlier, R' AJ Soloveitchik's shvogger Rav Breisch drowned off the coast of Kent, England. BDE.
A Lubavitcher Brisker is about as rare as a Long Beach Brisker. Did R' Ezra learn by R' Berel or R' Dovid?
He did not learn in Ner Yisroel Baltimore by the way. He learned in Ner Yisroel Toronto after it separated from Baltimore in 1970. It was a branch of Lakewood from 1971 through 1988 although it had a stronger kesher to Breuer's than anything else. In 1989 the yeshiva became an unofficial branch of Telz before moving back to the Lakewood sphere about 10 years later under the current rosh yeshiva who is a talmid of R' Berel.
מלבין פניהם ברבים
Tzig, don't be so quick to dismiss Mendel. There is a sizable minority of rebbeyim whose middos are severely lacking and should not be in chinuch. They belittle and make feel like dirt any bochur with a good sevoroh. They are just nasty am hoaratzim.
Not nogeih here, but lets hear the raid on the new members of the moetzes.
Why did RSA not attend? Whats the raid on Rav Karelenstein and Rav Piltz? (Though mishpacha this morning mentioned that RAP was indeed added, no one else mentions that)
"They belittle and make feel like dirt any bochur with a good sevoroh. They are just nasty am hoaratzim"
I had a rebbe when I was 14 years old who was very grouchy & cruel, screamed at me on every svorah that I'm a gornisht vos redt garbage. Every single svorah I checked out after with real talmidei chochomim who told me every single time I was mechaven to some Rishon or Acharon. When the new rosh yeshiva came he kicked out this rebbe. He couldn't find another job in chinuch.
The menahel that year hated our shiur for some reason. He told everyone we are the worst shiur that ever entered the yeshiva in it's history going back decades. When the new rosh yeshiva came he kicked out the menahel too. And we proved the menahel terribly wrong. As the "worst" shiur in the yeshiva's history we ended up the highest percentage in the yeshiva's history to go to Brisk & Lakewood. From many other shiurim I doubt that many of them even opened a sefer after a year or two of bais medrash before going to university or work.
1) Reb Ezra is not a 6th grade "Rebbi"
2) I don't think these critics here are being fair
R ezra is most famous for ripping untucked shirts to shreds. The only chabad yeshiva were looking like your homeless isn't the dresscode.
R' Ezra learned in Ner Yisroel Toronto whose alter Yekke rosh yeshiva at the time was very much like that. He chewed you out if you just got up from a nap & came to Shabbos mincha without a tie. There were serious financial knossos there for not making your bed, leaving anything unkept, being late for anything.
What's takka the pshat with all the Lubav shirts hanging out?
Someone who knew him many years ago told me RES held it was cheating to look in R' Elchonon's Kovetz Shiurim because it is easy enough you should be able to figure it out yourself. Hilarious that he ended up heading the yeshiva named for R' Elchonon.
he seems very tame here.
Of course he is also influenced by Telshe who are among the more rigid yeshivos. The oylam in the yeshivishe velt bichlal was always tummeling about the rigid takkonos & mindset in Vickliffe & Talmidei Telshe in Westwood / Riverdale.
Me ken shoin mainen what the effect is from a hybrid hashpoah of Brisk, Telz & "koful shmoina" Yekkishe. The only thing that could be worse is if Long Beach / Philly was also thrown into the mix. I think Ezra's brother learned in Philly come to think of it.
9:31am Been there said:
"I had a rebbe when I was 14 years old who was very grouchy & cruel, screamed at me on every svorah that I'm a gornisht vos redt garbage."
!איי וואר ער א מבין
What does "mayvin" know about that once 14 year old bochur to attack him?
disgusting said: "What does "mayvin" know about that once 14 year old bochur to attack him?"
Sorry it was 'your rebbe' the mayvin! who attacked you at 14!
במעלליו יתנכר נער אם זך ואם ישר פעלו - משלי כ
Did anyone else from Lubavitch ever learn in Brisk?
I guess there is no ליקוטי שיחות כרך ש"ו in brisk yeshiva so the answer most be No!
R'Yosef Heller is a Brisker, who became lubavitch
Rabbi Shmuel Braun learnede in Brisk.
"Rabbi Shmuel Braun "
Who is this? and which brisk?
btw, many lubavitchers don't know that Brisk, stam is r'berel and his som r'avrohom yeshoshu
All that is gold, does not glitter.
A Lubavitcher Brisker is about as rare as a Long Beach Brisker. Did R' Ezra learn by R' Berel or R' Dovid?
he learned by dovid actually
He did not learn in Ner Yisroel Baltimore by the way.
oh yes he did. he himself told people anecdotes from when he was there
He learned in Ner Yisroel Toronto after it separated from Baltimore in 1970.
he is not that young my freind, sorry, nice try.
R' Ezra must have learned in Ner Yisroel Toronto after the 1970 split at one point because the lomdishe NYT crowd from the early 70s all talk about him and quote him. It's possible that he was there both before and after the split. Are you sure when he talks about "Baltimore" it's not that he was in Toronto under R' Yaakov Weinberg & the rest of the Baltimore crew before they ran back to Baltimore to get away from the big Toronto machlokes? (What a story that was!)
Different dor but besides a Lubavitcher there was also a Toronto Breslover who learned in Brisk. Not sure what is more eclectic.
http://www.torahcafe.com/scholar/rabbi-shmuel-braun_0000000242.html
As someone who spent many, many year in YOEC and was extremely close with the Rosh, I can tell you:
1) To be honest, The way he treated students, especially his anger issues, was not acceptable and definitely not befitting a Talmid Chochom of his stature. Although methinks it may have been more of an act intended to intimidate...
2) That said, I have never met anyone with close to his intelleact and b'kiyos both in niglah and nistar. The man truly stands alone and if he were not Chabad would be acknowldged as one of the true Gedolei Hador.
3) He definately mellowed out as time passed and the Yeshiva was put in the hands of younger people.
4) I think that many of his 'personal issues' alluded to in #1 had to do with the fact that he was a world class TC stuck in a Yeshivah created specifically for west coast kids who werent neccessarily interested in being there. Can you imagine anything harder for someone of his stature? Having to deal with kids for doing all sorts of crazy things that would never occur in OT or even the Mir?
5) Most importantly, I truly felt that he cared deeply for every student and beneath the gruff and off putting exterior was a warm man with an enormous heart who only wanted the best for his Yeshivah and students.
Its my great regret that I didnt come close to benefiting from one of the last great Roshei Yeshivos in the world. Perhaps its time for a trip back to Waring Ave.
- A sentimental Talmid
1. He learned in Baltimore. R' Dovid Kronglass wanted him kicked out, but R' Ruderman would not allow it. Some bochurim once shaved off half his beard. He would not shave the other half off. R' Ruderman told my brother one of those bochurim died young, and he attributed it to this ma'aseh.
2. He learned by Reb Dovid, not Reb Berel. Reb Berel wanted him tossed out because he blamed another bochur's conversion to Chabad on him, but Reb Dovid would not hear of it.
3. Were Reb Ezra to have stayed in the "mainstream" he would be one of the greatest Gedolim of our day. He cannot be expected to be a mechanech or mashpi'a as us vmere mortals are. He is an illui and a ga'on - and a Litvak through and through. To expect him to be a classic mechanech would be like expecting the same of the Rogatchover or Reb Meir Simcha.
וואס האקט מען א טשייניק?
Of course he's known as a מחנך. His unique farbrengens with the younger bochurim are legendary, & he's known to roam the dorm rooms making sure that אלץ איז כשר וישר...
BTW his brothers are also big בריסקער למדנים. It is also known the back-&-forth between the Rebbe & his father about his older brother, R' Dovid Schochat, joining תו’’ת. This has been already written about somewhere else.
For some of his חידושים that he wrote, see the early קובצי פלפולים of ישיבת אור אלחנן חב''ד (late 1970s-early 1980s). In one of them he has a whole long discussion about changing נוסח from ספרד & אשכנז to נוסח ארי, based on the bavuster vort of the Magid of י''ג שערים/שבטים.
--ZIY
Zayer interresant that R' Ezra's alter Telzer father would send him to Ner Yisroel Baltimore. I guess fort Rav Ruderman was the Dvar Avrohom's a talmid & hot er gelernt in Slabodka with all the other gedolim.
One of the rebbayim that was in Ner Yisroel Toronto, despite being a Washington Heights Yekka who learned in Lakewood, switched to Nusach HaAri and justified it to everyone that it is the "most hayliga nusach". It did look out of place that on one shtender on mizrach vant that there was a Lubavitcher siddur. Was he mushpa from R' Ezra?
He's lucky he came to Lakewood before BMG blacklisted Ner Yisroel applicants in the early 1990s.
Also, it happens to be a bit strange to see the Rosh go off in his Amerikaner Eynglish while Reb Yoel & Rabbis Eizenbach, Farkash, A.D. Halperin, Dimochovsky et al. don't even know the language! & even those who do, like R' Vilshansky (Morristown), Kalmenson (New Haven), et al., it is certainly not their first language & are way more comfortable tzu redn in lernen in Yiddish.
In fact, the Rebbe once made a whole trask (in the late '80s) that there are those who layder speak in learning in loshoyn hamedineh (though IIRC the Rebbe mentioned specifically about being mefalpel in chasidus in English). There seems to be a reason why the Rebbe said this then, ואכ''מ.
--ZIY
Ner Yisroelers can still get into Lakewood if they are the very odd yochid of once in ten years who learns all day instead of going to Johns Hopkins. This is not even altz the machlokes R' Yaakov Weinberg & the Steipler, but because stam Lakewood is irked by an interest in chochmos chitziyonos. They also stopped taking at that time from yeshivos like "Ner Moe" because bichlal the modern-leaning shnit brings veiber to shtot that al pi rov do not dress tznius enough.
As far as the Gan Yisroel video, it's also not in the style of Lakewood to darshan in English, and certainly not that of Brisk.
It's not the end of the world to skip the Yiddish unless you are die hard purists like the Soloveitchiks. They say that an Israeli once caught R' Dovid off guard in a very heated debate mitten shiur. The Israeli kept raising his voice in Ivrit with R' Dovid shouting back in Yiddish. R' Dovid was not impressed with the bochur's tzu gein and lashed out at one point "az ma yesh?". It was a major gaffe and everyone was waiting for R' Dovid to cup his hand over his mouth in embarrassment.
What is really silly sometimes though is when wannabe yeshivos insist on everything Yiddish even though they don't have the clientele for it. R' Shmuel Miller's yeshiva comes to mind.
Ezra's father lived in walking distance of the alter Galitzianer R' Moishe Burak, a very early talmid of Rav Ruderman who would be about 92 if he was still alive today. He mastered not just the classics but knew the contents of the majority of zeitiga seforim that ever met a printing press. He was the shver of the Ozherover Rebbe and lived his last years in an apartment over the Ozherover yeshiva in Bnei Brak. Rav Landau was maspid him by the levaya in the yeshiva.
The rosh is the bomb he's the only ry that actuely cares
Toronto 4:36, "R' Ezra must have learned in Ner Yisroel Toronto after the 1970 split at one point because the lomdishe NYT crowd from the early 70s all talk about him and quote him."
"lomdishe NYT crowd" ?
זלשה"ק בדברי חיים אבהע"ז: אם יסכימו לומדי אמת לא 'גדולים' המכונים, אז גם אנכי עמהם ,ע"כ
Schochat was talking to the yeshiva boys there, not the mizrach wall.They don't know very much yiddish and are surely not comfortable in the language.Additionally, Shochat himself is much more comfortable in English.
Considering his recognized attainments, it smacks of disrespect for commenters to call him "Shochat" or "Ezra." Would you call the Rebbe "Schneerson" or "Mendel?"
no speaka da english - You have no idea what your talking about. R' Dovid talks to the Israeli bochurim in Hebrew all the time.
It was during shiur a long time ago. I don't know about now but it was all Yiddish back then.
no speaka is confusing Rav Dovid with Rav Yitzchok and the story was with an American bochur speaking english.
Tzvay dinim
R' Yitzchok probably had a maysah like that with the Bais Hatalmud bochur Braun about 25 years ago. And who cares anyway as R' Yitzchok is American.
R' Dovid did reportedly have this incident with an Israeli that goes back even further in time. I heard it being told over in Lakewood.
Rav Burack from toronto the shver of the Ozorover Rebbe Shlita, passed away several years ago, ZT"L.
The ezem zach that Shochat became Lubavitch "oimer darsheini" (yeah,i know his father was a partial "convert" to....if you are mature you don't need to do al vus tatten hot getin")
And it was quite funny when he mentions the derushes of "geonim" at this kinnus.Kimat the only lubabs who know how to learn on the Kalmanson brothers, vekoyodua, they learned in france by Goldberg, a fartzaytishe lubob.
Kimat no serious talmidei chachumim ever came out of the yeshive hamercozis "toimchei temimim" .decrown heights, the few and far between lubobs that can read a word of ivreh, are the ones that leaned outside of lubab.Shochat,Forkash etc.
even our esteemed bloggers ivreh and yiddish writing abilities don't come from the "kashe" of "teimche temimim"
the etzem zach that Shea is allowed to comment here says דרשוני
Shea, you made me laugh over that shprach fartzaytishe Lubob but what do you mean that the tattn was only a partial convert? He was in gantzen and so all the sons are steeped in Chabad
Shochat senior was a shvugger with Chodakov, a gevorener himself,kind of,as u know, Lubavitch knew how to turn on the charm and give attention,
So ,Shochat senior became farkoyfed, slowly, till ultimately, changing to nusach ari later.not all the kids went with the ride,
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer, an eynikel, can tell you more, if you ask nicely.
I would not call R'Dovid Shochat "steeped" in latter day Chabad.Neither is Immanuel, lirefua shleima.But, when you are part of a group, it's not easy to get up, but they have protested, the excesses of the newby lubobs for sure.
One of the tragedies of the Schochet family is that no biography of my grandfather zt"l has been written. I have volunteered, but there is no interest among the siblings. The reasons for the lack of interest are asserted to be complex (Schochets - myself included - have this complex that propels them to view themselves as complex). But they can be summarized in a daherr I heard in the name of Rav Hutner as to why the clock is always in the highest tower in the village. People think that it is so as to make the clock visible at a distance, but they are wrong. It is to make the clock as inaccessible as possible, for the moment anyone could access the clock he would change its time to synchronize with his own pocket watch...
Shea, you mean you hold R' Dovid Shochet is not really Lubavitch becuase he is old style Lubavitch? He is the head of Lubavitch for the whole Toronto & maybe even more. And all of Rabbi J. Immanuel's kids are Lubavitch as far as I know (even the one they are not proud of)
How did Rav Dovid Shoichet come to get so heavily involved in the hatzolas Rubashkin PR campaign?
There is a Shochet who took over the pulpit in Rabbi Burack's shul. He should have been brought in a long time ago before that ignorant modern fool took over who destroyed the shul. He was even putting his Conservative rabbi father in Rabbi Burack's seat on mizrach.
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-know-and-to-care-1/14.htm
I thought they became Lubavitch altz the Rebbe and the little daughter being sick in the hospital. The story is more than halfway down this page. One Schochet brother that I know always talks about the Rebbe as if he's the biggest baal mofess.
http://www.yoec.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Questionnaire.pdf
Wow, the most comprehensive yeshiva questionnaire I've ever seen.
I think we have the scenario here.
Classic lubavitch move.
R'Schochat senior a respected person,
moving to a different country, language.Floundering a bit.Toronto at the time not a very large really frum community, like Boro Park,Williamsburg,Crown Heights in the 50's.Kids with potential.Time for Lubavitch to make their move.Give attention ,give respect, you've added another family to Ana"sh.
Repeated so many times.Classic move
Several quick points:
I can't speak concerning my uncle in Miami, but all the other brothers regard themselves as transcending the boundaries that normally separate Chabad from the rest of the Orthodox intellectual world - each in their own way. Most of their children do not regard themselves the same way.
One interesting exception (sort of) is Reb Dovid's son in law, Mani Diena, who is part of the Ner Yisroel and Lakewood Kollel worlds of Toronto.
The "mofeis" with my aunt was only one step in an ongoing process. Nowhere near enough attention has been paid to the learning of Tanya in Telz and the similarities beteen Telz and Chabad, the influence of Rabbi Chodakov (touched on here), the prior influence of R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan (which even the kids themselves are not aware of - I learned about it from my great aunt in Yerushalayim), the rupture with Telz-Cleveland and more. Shea makes some good points, but they are not adequate to explain how the top surviving Telzer talmid outside of the family, who had been enamored of TIDE (again, something the kids don't know enough about, kana"l), became mekushar to Chabad.
Reb YGB
Help me please. Was there a relation between R' Schochet a gaon from holland, and your family that you are writing about?
The Gaon from holland if I recall was related to Rav Bengis, and also R Shneur Kotlers Wife. How is that?
Manny Diena is "part" of the Ner Yisroel world on account of coming for many years to the shiur for baal habatim. This was a pretty lomdishe bunch. The daf yomi includes Tosafos. The old Frankfurter Yid who was rosh yeshiva, Rav Friedler, was the only non-Chabad figure of his stature I can think of that would quote from Tanya, even if it was seldom. I was present when he was met by dropped jaws & someone mustered the courage to ask mai hai. He answered along the lines that he may not see eye to eye with the current Chabad hashkafa but that it is worthwhile to learn the Tanya at least once.
The "Rosh's" father, my grandfather, R' Dov Yehuda Schochet zt"l is the "gaon" from Holland to which you refer. His aunt Roiza (my great-great aunt) was Rav Bengis' second wife. I met her on my first trip to EY in 1969 (from the perspective of a seven year old from West Hempstead, it was a frightening experience).
I can't myself reconstruct the connection to Rebbitzen Kotler. It was explained to me once many years ago by my great aunt a"h, but I forgot it, and my mother she'tichye doesn't know how it goes, just that it exists.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer,
As usual you are very candid.Refreshing on this type of blog.
If I may:I think, that you may underestimate the power of unappreciation and loneliness.This is something that Lubavitch (and others veda"l)understand.Your grandfather must have felt very unappreciated in this new and foreign world.
Although I did not know about a rupture between Telz ,I surmised that something must have gone on there.
Regarding the learning of Tanya in Telz:I believe, and correct me if I"m wrong, that Tanya was not part of the curriculum in Telz, rather taught in a vaad to a small group of talmidim by the rosh yeshiva.Maybe it showed that Telz was a more open place than others.They did believe in teaching women, setting up institutions for that, in Hebrew, if I"m not mistaken, but the reality is that Telz, was very,very far from Chasides, both geographically and in theology.Slabodka had boys from chasidic backrounds, but Telz was very far from it(i think).
Additionally, i see very little connection between learning Tanya and latter day Lubavitch.You learn chasides frequently, do you feel close to todays version of Chabad?I mean Chabad has become an icon of anti-intellect, besides descending into stam bizarre things, like meshichisten and attracting so many lost and "mental" people.I"m being very honest here and the blogmeister may not like this assesment.Maybe I"m wrong and you actually do feel close...
You mentioned , R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan:I know that he is an influence in your life and you have written about him.He was a fascinating person who died so young.Can you tell me what his shaychus to Chabad, if at all, or how your grandfather would have been influenced by him? (i know he was from Slabodka, so that would be very interesting).
Who is your great aunt
And how was your grandfather saved?
I know he was a rov in Holland and then in Switzerland, but how did this come about?
Looking forward to your answer and a yasher koiach fin forois!
Toronto,
Manny Dienna, may be part of Ner, because of the shiur but he was never part of Chabad.
Another son in law, at least, and I forget his name was also not a Lubavitcher.Maybe today he moved in that direction
WOW! Thank you RYG. Its the same one! They became Chabad Chassidim in North America? Facinating. Rabbi Gutnick was also a telzer- Chabadnik. Were there others?
shea has a very hard believing that people see things differently in this world. So there must be a catch, like they were "lonely in the new world," or some other nonsense.
Hirshel,
Chabad is very,very different.So yes, there usually is a "catch".
" Rabbi Gutnick was also a telzer- Chabadnik. Were there others?"
R'Shmuel Levitins, well-known mashpia, known as Shmuel Rakishker, .. sons learned in Telz, he was rov of the nearby town
Rokishok(maybe he wasen't rov but he was from there)
Hirshel, it necessarily doesn't mean it was a decisive dynamic in the case of R' Dov Schochet but there is such a dynamic in the world that you can influence a lonely person by showering him with attention.
Vaiss ich nit about the Chabad of yore, but the Chabad of today tries to pull everyone in with an attitude that no one else gets Yiddishkeit right even among haymishe, so let's save these poor souls. I don't know if it is official Chabad doctrine even, just that a lot of rank & file Chabadniks have this unfortunate & unproductive attitude.
What does Manny have to do with the kollel? Because he gives them a few rubles & because Reb Shlomo sided with him in the Lakewood pharmacy dispute?
When TOMASHOV the lubob tipish comes into a moronic litvak gilgul, he comes back as SHEA. These two really raise the level of discourse.. NOT. Who said any particular chug has a copyright on stupidity. Evidently the angels spread it around nicely...
Toronto -
I believe Mani learned in Ner Yisroel. [On the subject of Mani, Rav Gifter zt"l once told him that his shverr's father was a ga'on of a caliber no longer seen, and that he was not a real Lubavitcher. When Mani told his father in law the story, my uncle was gohr tzufrieden, as he took both parts of the comment as signs of true praise.]
Hirshel -
Shea is not completely off the mark here.
Shea -
Un-appreciation and loneliness were definitely a part of the mix. Only after reading some of his profound and heartfelt pre-war correspondence with his soon-to-slaughtered chavreim could I have appreciated the depth of that loneliness.
So this is a part - but only a part - of a much larger picture.
The rupture with Telshe was so painful on many accounts, including the sealing of the sense of isolation. It was not by coincidence, evidently, that immediately after giving the keynote address at the yeshiva dinner in Cleveland that he got directly on the train for his first visit to Crown Heights.
To be fair, the rupture was painful on both sides. Rebbitzen Ausband, shetichye, told me that as her uncle Reb Eliyahu Meir Bloch lay dying he felt compelled to call the family together to explain how it could be that Rabbi Schochet could have gone over to Chabad. So you see what was bothering REMB as he was between worlds.
While Tanya in Telshe was indeed learned in a small va'ad with the Maharil, I indeed meant it more as a representation than as a thing in and of itself. There was an openness in Telshe. There were not too many other Litvishe Roshei Yeshiva who were close to the Leshem...
I also see very little connection between learning Tanya and latter day Lubavitch. My grandfather so Lubavitch of the 40's and early 50's. Being out of town, that is also what remained with him. We need not dwell on the differences. All my uncles had to go through some period of internal reconciliation and justification - and the emotional results are not always subtle. My grandfather did not have to go through that stage.
BTW, having met our Blogmeister in the flesh, I don't think he is so far from you in your regard of the situation as it exists today. It seems to me that he too has undergone the wrenching internal process of reconciliation and justification...
R' Avrohom Elya Kaplan was the reason my grandfather left Telshe in the '20's to go to college, IIRC correctly in Leipzig. There is a famous story of the Maharil recalling my grandfather to Telshe shortly before he completed his degree, and why. RAEK lived in Telshe, and was stuck there during the war years ('14-'18). Again, the hashpa'a was more to Harchovas Ha'Da'as. [BTW, RAEK's younger half-brother, R' Yitzchok Isaac Rabinowitz Hy"d was one of my gradnfather's closest friends.]
My great aunt, my grandfather's sister, Mrs. Leah Holzberg a"h, was the source of much of my family and general Telsher and Litvishe knowledge. Her husband, a true talmid chacham and tzaddik, Reb Yosef Dov Halevi Holzberg zt"l, was son of R' Yitzchok Rapahel Holzberg (Etzion), the dean of the Yavne school system. I was a ben bayis in their simple yet emes'er Yerushalmi abode for many years, as was the "Rosh" and many of my uncles, aunts and cousins.
My newlywed grandfather came to Basel, first as a melamed and then as the rav of the Austrittsgemeinde, in 1930. My mother (the oldest child, shetichye) and most of her siblings were born in Basel. Only the youngest were born in Holland, where they moved in '46, where he was the rav in the Hague, and Rosh Yeshiva in Leiden, very much involved in PAI.
R'Yosef Gavriel,
Thx for taking the time out.i've got to run now, but as usual a very interesting post.
Sol,
look up moronic in the dictionary.
If R' Bechhofer or R' Hirshel has a chance, could you please explain the Chabad haskafah regarding Secular Studies? Is it true that it changed after WWII [to being forbidden in Chabad Yeshivas]? If so, what was/is the reason?
speeking about shochots becoming lubavitch the rosh is the most mekusher one on platform and his brother elisha spent 13 years in ch kolel getting paid 200 a month just to be by the rebbe
Shea needs to explain how the LONELY Man of Faith RJBS did not get sucked in by the vampiric kindness of the Rebbes Rayatz & MMS.
Hahaha
From la -
13 years in Kolel in CH? More like 6 or maybe 7 (not to minimize, just your numbers are off), which included some part time jobs.
CGS (a member of the clan...)
Shea, I looked it up in the dictionary.
1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.
Yes it all applys to you indeed!
Although Reb YGB says you are not completly off the mark, so is a broken clock...You are indeed a tipesh!!
I heard Horav Yoel Kahan Shlita once mentioned the difference between himself and Rav Schochet Zatsal. (The gist is right even if I changed details) (It was following a shiur he gave on a brilliant talk of the Lubavitcher Rebbe that was said in honor of R DY Schochet in connection to the marriage of one of his boys. Its in Lekutei Sichos)
Rav Schochet told him "whats the difference between me and you?" "You are a chabad chossid. Because the rebbe is now the rebbe of chabad, your HIS chossid)I on the other hand are a chossid of the Rebbe. Because he is the Chabad Rebbe, thus Im a Chossid.
(there is something here about he is a chossid of gadlus . He knew giants in europe- the Rabbanim Blochs and was mekushar to them and now Because the rebbe is the gadol hes mekushar to him)
Rabbi Bechofer, what do you say about this vort? Does it put things into perspective.
R'Yosef Gavriel,
I now had more time to see your post that is chock full of fascinating facts.
Some notes:
* "having met our Blogmeister in the flesh, I don't think he is so far from you in your regard of the situation as it exists today. It seems to me that he too has undergone the wrenching internal process of reconciliation and justification..."
I realize that he is struggling.It's very difficult to reconcile Toras Chabad with the current sad state of affairs in Lubavitch.That does not mean that certain facets of Lubavitch are not doing well.The Shlichus movement is doing good work for the most part, mostly out of town in smaller Jewish communities.Unfortunately internally it does not look very good.Crown Heights which is so central to the new Chabad is full of problems.Since the best and brightest are sent on shlichus the community is left lacking leadership and role models AND of course there is the Meshichist movement, which is a constant source of strife and shame for the sane Lubavitcher.How does one reconcile the Rebbe, so revered by a chosid with this crazy Meshichist movement ? AND here the excuse that it's "only a small minority" doesn't work, because a Lubavitcher who is part of the community knows that the Meshichists are a significant part of Lubavitch.
Bichlal,how does one reconcile "hiskashres" with the Rebbe after gimmel tammuz?For a thinking person it's not easy...
You mention an Uncle, Reb Yosef Dov Halevi Holzberg Etzion,I recall that Gush Ezion was named after a Holtzberg is this from the same family?i realize that Etzion is a kind of Hebrew version of the name Holtzberg, so they don't need to be family,.....
Thx again.
I wish we could get a guest post about your zeideh?Maybe instead of a writing a whole biography of your Zaide, you would right an essay about him?
In 1972 as a young בחור i landed in בני ברק by חשגחה פרטת... And became a בן בית by r ezra... He lived ממש next to y ponovich and there was always bahurim by im.
2) he went with כבדות
3( he was a ציוני... He made mistakes in the rebbis שיחות which i showed him
And he acknowledged
4) he told his children i was an uncle
5). He said deep understandable torah on the table
6) chabad in BB accepted him as a manhig e en though he was quite young...
YTC,
Tell us more.
He learned in a non Chabad kolel, right?
I am happy to see that one of my favorite cousins is pursuing this conversation. A bit over forty years ago Reb CGS and I were with our grandparents in Toronto for Pesach (this was the last time I saw my grandfather, as my branch moved to EY that September). IIRC we both asked for and received the same afikoman present, a set of Mishna Berura. This in and of itself is a siman of something, as gifts from my uncles have always been Sifrei Chabad...
Chabad Question:
The official policy of Chabad towards Chochmos Chitzoniyos is more or less the same as that of other Chasiddic groups. Like those groups, the more powerful they became the more they curtailed the Limudei Chol.
"Like those groups, the more powerful they became the more they curtailed the Limudei Chol."
Does that mean that Chabad has become more powerful in recent years?
When was R' Dov niftar?
YGB: Why do you have to answer a question about Chabad's attitude towards Limudei Chol? You are not Chabad. You have Chabad relatives, but you are not Chabad so you don't really know. Why do you feel that you are so qualified to tell people what Chabad really thinks (or even what your uncles really think)?
Cheski: Do you disagree with R' Bechhofer's answer?
" Why do you have to answer a question about Chabad's attitude towards Limudei Chol? You are not Chabad"
Do you have to be only Chabad to answer?
He knows a lot about Chabad.If you think his answer is lacking, why don't you say something?
This is open country (hopefully...)
EU - I like the chilluk.
Question -
1975.
true story that i heard from the roshes mouth the rebbe told him to open ata''h of bnai brak and he lived right down a hill from ponovitz (this is right after he got married)so every Thursday night he would bring around 10 bochurim from kfar chabad and make afarbrengen and the guys from ponivetz would slip in slowly so that at the end of the night he had around 70 guys there! this went on untill the whole yeshiva serounded his house screaming that he should get out of bnaibrak like loet in sedom!
sorry for the typos
YGB -
Correct. I still use that set. I think it was 1973.
OOOPS, I wanted to add -
Though I don't think it is a "siman" of anything, as that is that we asked for. If we would have asked for a LS, he would have gotten us that LOL... (and yes, it was a present for returning the afikomen - he never gave up that minhog, or at least never took that minhog away from us grandchildren).
RCGS:
You're right, of course, '73. As to a siman, I have a tendency to be over medayeik, but let me pose a hypothetical: Say ba'zman ha'zeh an eynikel [BTW, a term foreign to our grandparents, who clearly detested Yiddish names and Yiddishisms. This is probably our Savta's influence, who was educated at the Vilna Gymnasium - she also made our Sabba change his name from Berel (some certificates say Aryeh) Leib to Do Yehuda.] asked his mainline Chabad zayde for a Mishnah Berurah as a Chanukah present. What is more likely? That the present would be given, no comments made, or that the zayde would at the very least clarify that we don't pasken like the MB, and maybe he'd prefer s SAhR instead?
RCGS:
You're right, of course, '73. As to a siman, I have a tendency to be over medayeik, but let me pose a hypothetical: Say ba'zman ha'zeh an eynikel [BTW, a term foreign to our grandparents, who clearly detested Yiddish names and Yiddishisms. This is probably our Savta's influence, who was educated at the Vilna Gymnasium - she also made our Sabba change his name from Berel (some certificates say Aryeh) Leib to Do Yehuda.] asked his mainline Chabad zayde for a Mishnah Berurah as a Chanukah present. What is more likely? That the present would be given, no comments made, or that the zayde would at the very least clarify that we don't pasken like the MB, and maybe he'd prefer s SAhR instead?
RCGS:
Once we're on the subject, I think it is high time by the fortieth yohrzeit three years from now that there be a bio in print. Please contact me off-blog to see how it might be divided up among the grandchildren.
Hirshel your blog is invaded by MO blabel types like proffesor Bechhofer or stam bimbo types.. אני לא רוצה להזכיר שמות all the mesorah frum yiden left you, or never where here, so go with the flow.. dont pretend your'e the blog for !חסידים ואנשי מעשה your commenteers are rather the type
האומר לאביו ולאמו לא ראיתיו ואת
אחיו לא הכיר ואת בניו לא ידע
Berliner
you're the invader here.
Sorry pall, but this picture of Prof. Bechhofer dont look to me like one of the חסידים ואנשי מעשה type you claim to cater to! How dear you insulting Me! Ich bin ein Berliner !
Rabbi Bechhofer might teach in modern places but that does not make him modern orthodox.
Berliner
there's no need to insult people here. RYGB is MO like you're a Berliner.
Hirshel Tzig "there's no need to insult people here. RYGB is MO like you're a Berliner."
Sorry to insult anyone i was stating the cbvious i judged him by his 'picture' + his 1000 words
!ע"פ שניים עדים יקום דבר
הירשל ציג said... to: Berliner
you're the invader here.
When i was a kid these lubab men used to invade my shul on שמיני עצרת they seemed sincere to the just arrived green hungarians so they did a gemilas chesed and let them preach from the pulpit, How about pay back time can't you show some humility and let 'others' vent to! hey what goes around comes around no?
I let you vent, just don't come here and tell me to throw out other people...
Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...
I let you vent, just don't come here and tell me to throw out other people...
Of course not, but atleast let him show some courtesy he could of post a picture of (himself) with
בארד אין פיאות, בלי בלוריות! ושניפסל
"Of course not, but atleast let him show some courtesy he could of post a picture of (himself) with
בארד אין פיאות, בלי בלוריות! ושניפסל
"
he should get dressed up in a phony costume?
Suvalker said...
Rabbi Bechhofer might teach in modern places but that does not make him modern orthodox.
Rabbi? is he ordained? does he have semicha? is he a true rabbi or a Dr. profesor type rabbi? it doesn't matter just to set the record straight! so i can apoligize if called for!
Tzig: "he should get dressed up in a phony costume?"
Are all those rabbi's in the yerchi kala video with the wide brimmed hats and long wild beards in contrast speaking goyish!!! considered phony ?!
RYGB
A short bio of sorts was printed last year in the דבר יהודה. I doubt we will see anything much better - בדרך הטבע.
As to your other comment: I don't know what his yachas was to the MB, so I cannot comment on that. Especially as one of the people involved (you!) - probably would follow the MB. Also, don't forget, we were not even 12 years old at the time (I also think his illness was in the beginning stages at the time).
KT
RCGS:
I have not seen the "Dvar Yehuda." If it is anything more than an accumulation of what was put out over the years in the kovetz Migdal Ohr, I should like to see it.
But, depending on who put it out, assuming it was one of the uncles, they were megaleh tefach u'mechaseh elef tefachim - which would be a different elef tefachim depending on who did the writing.
A certain distance is necessary for the bio to be meaningful and indiscriminate. Grandchildren might be able to do it. Children not.
I know it will have to be shelo k'derech ha'teva. Been there and done that with Sabba's hiskasvus before. That's how I have Sabba's HS diploma from Telshe on the wall opposite me. :-)
Me zolt vissen that Rabbi Bechhoffer is not a "Dokter Rabbiner" shnit in the style of YU. He is an echte Yekke who has a recht to follow the shita of Rav SR Hirsch. You might try to tzaychen Tzu R' Boruch Ber in maseches Kesuvos that shitas Rav SR Hirsch was only hoyroas shaah for that dor, but it is not so poshut.
ר' שמשון רפאל הירש ז"ל הי' מתנגד לציונת לא כמו ההילדינסהיימער רבו של הרמ"מ, האם ר' בעכהאפער דידן גם בזה הוא אוחזת בשיטת ר' שר"ה
הרשר"ה נפטר בתרמ"א, כו"כ שנים לפני התנועה הציונית
הירשל ציג : הרשר"ה נפטר בתרמ"א, כו"כ שנים לפני התנועה הציונית
ר' שר"ה הי' מתנגד להתנועה של החובבי ציון שנתארגן בימיו
הרב ברייער החדש שליט"א
שיטתי על הציונות היא היא שיטת ממשיכי דרך הרשר"ה זצ"ל, האחים הדגולים הר' יצחק והר' יוסף ברייער זצ"ל.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer said...
הרב ברייער החדש שליט"א
שיטתי על הציונות היא היא שיטת ממשיכי דרך הרשר"ה זצ"ל, האחים הדגולים הר' יצחק והר' יוסף ברייער זצ"ל.
!נחמתני, כמוך ירבו בישראל
talking about the German Jewry ( orthodox and non ortodox) love for their Mutterland is noting what to be proud off... Rabbi Becherhoffer, chk out the original protocols of the Reform movement founders in Germany .. you will be shocked that they quote the 3 oats as the Satmar Ruv....
Eventually the Muterland brought the biggest churban in our history...A open minded person like you should say that RSR made a mistake....
YGB
"asked his mainline Chabad zayde for a Mishnah Berurah as a Chanukah present. What is more likely? That the present would be given, no comments made, "
a real chosid of the Rebbe can not say a negative vort on the Mishneh Berura.. I remember the Rebbe saying by a shabos farbrengen in the 80's that Piskie Mishneh Berura are Niskabel as a zechus for his hafotzaz mitzvas Ahavas Yisroel... obviously a litvak ( of today) will not like this vort..Since Ahavas yisroel is a lefty mitzva.
RYGB bo le'la'mayd ve'nim'tzoh lomud.
He came to teach us some worthy historical insights, but he learned that by use of ad hominem , ad naseum, ad Hay'khan HaDvorim Ma'giyim, the Narish'e oilem is only concerned with their Niderige Narishkeiten.
why cant the chabad Rabbonim dress nicely groomed and follow basic hygenics many have dirty sloppy clothing with dandruff and wild dirty beards and bad breath odor
I am surprised no one here has touched on the lack of analysis of the phenomena of my grandfather's brothers in law: The staunch adherent of TIDE and loyal Agudist idealist? The Yekke who became a Mirrer and became a world's authority on Torah of the Rishonim?
R' Yaakov Kaminetzky poskened it is a chilul Hashem even for a bochur to not look presentable and said if they are too lazy to brush their hats from dust, they are mechuyev to wear a gray hat.
See this quote from Rebbe sicha regarding Mishna Berura
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15970&st=&pgnum=168&hilite=
מבואר באחרונים, אפילו לא לבש שום מלבוש של אשה אבל יפה עצמו באופן שרק נשים עושות כן ואנשים כשרים אין דרכם ליפות עצמם באופן כזה, הרי קעבר על לאו דלא ילבש. וכמבואר בשבת צד: והוא איסור דאורייתא ממש. והגם שכמובן ניכר בו לגמרי שהוא איש מ״מ במה שיפה עצמו יותר מדאי ודרך אנשים שיש להם מחשבות של זימה לעשות כן הרי זה בכלל איםורא דלא תלבש. וע"פ האר"י הקדוש שיותר טוב להשאיר את צלם האלוקים ולא לנגוע בזקנו דיוקנא קדישא כלל
ומה שנוגע לנקיות הגוף, בוודאי חסידים ואנשי מעשה ששוהים שעה אחת לפני התפילה ומנקים א"ע והולכים למקוה, זה הנקיות האמיתי
Switching allegiances does not always have good results. Of the two haymishe co-conspirators with Bernie Madoff, the Gabriel Capital ponzi scheme was a Yekke vos shtamt fun Litvaks and the one in Oesterreich has a Hungarian name.
Derech Eretz kadma l'Tayreh: "if they are too lazy to brush their hats from dust, they are mechuyev to wear a gray hat."
The livishe kilas/torah lite era, with their odd pesukam is over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5gpcJMGyHA
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