Sunday, August 19, 2012

דער מאמר האט ער אויך געהערט?


















 UPDATE: We've been getting reports saying that it was NOT that wedding. Please stand by for possible changes.

The Satmar Rov at a Lubavitcher Chasuna - well, half Lubavitch, anyway - in 1954 - כמדומני. The Chosson was HaTomim Reb Meir Zajac, ZG"Z, a son of Reb Simcha Zajac from Brazil, who was sent there by the Frierdige Rebbe before WW2. Meir and his brothers all came to New York to learn in Lubavitch. The Kallah was the daughter of a very staunch Satmarer Chossid, Reb Shloime Braver, ע"ה. Seated in the foreground are l-r: Reb Hirsh Kotlarsky, Reb Mordche Avrohom Yeshaya Groner and Reb Shmuel Levitin, as far as I can tell. Behind the Rov stands the chosson's brother Reb Leibel Zajac, and seated in the background, second from left is the Rosh Yeshiva, Reb Mordche Mentlik, ע"ה. We also recognize Reb Yossel Ashkenazi before he switched to the more "Chassidishe beaver hat." To Reb Yossel's left, with the gray suit and tie and black homburg is the mechutan Reb Shlomo Braver. Behind him, with the flat beaver hat, is a young Payer Ruv. Second from right, standing with the light suit, is Reb Chaim Alter Roth ע"ה, of Boro Park-נתניה, and standing on the extreme left is Reb Binyomin Williger שליט"א of Boro Park. The Chosson usually חזר'ט א מאמר חסידות at the קבלת פנים, which is why I asked what I did, whether or not the Rov was present at that time. I dare say that the מצב looks a bit uncomfortable there.... This is by no means a "new" picture - it's been out there for a very long time. I just don't think anybody ever noticed the Lubavitcher element to the picture.

כ'בעט ביי ידידנו חסידי ותלמידי סאטמאר ארויס צו העלפן און מודיע זיין אין די קאמענטען ווער נאך זיי דערקענען אין דעם בילד - און דאס זעלביגע פון אנ"ש חסידי ליובאוויטש, סיי די מענטשען אינעם בילד און סיי אנדערע פרטים איבער די חתונה, ווי למשל וואו עס איז פארגעקומען און ווער עס האט מסדר קדושין געווען

55 comments:

tibi lotzi said...

Braver did not wear a shtrimel?
Who was mesader kidushin?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I did not check מקדש ישראל to see if the Rebbe attended and was מסד"ק. It doesn't look like the Rebbe was.

tibi lotzi said...

Hirshel
The wedding was in Willi? CH?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

IN THE PROCESS OF FINDING OUT.

sorry about the CAPS

Tartikover said...

I always thought that Satmar were stam a bunch of Kuzarim. I recently learned that the Teitelbaums at least are very meyuchos. Teitelbaum is a variant of Dattelboim (date tree as always shown in the Satmar symbol). Before the Yismach Moishe their name was Schiff. And before that they are a bunch of Briskers!!!! The Yismach Moishe is ben achar ben from the Rebbe R' Heschel whom he and his zaydas were the rabbonim & roshei yeshiva of Brisk for a few doros. That means that their name was Babad before they changed it to Schiff after the Rebbe R' Heschel.

The Rebbe R' Heschel is ben achar ben from the Mahari Bruna, talmid of the Terumas Hadeshen.

Letzonus said...

After 9/11 when the Governor called down Upstate troopers to help patrol NYC, there was a Satmarer mit a groisa bard sitting parked in his minivan on Heyvard St. The trooper tapped on the fenster & hot er gefregt, "Taliban"? Hot em ge'entfert, "nein, Teitelbom"

L said...

the most unusual chassuna i have ever seen was the son of a breslover dayan who married a lubavitcher girl. besides all the pandemonium, some drunken some not, there was some lubavitcher dude there with buttons pinned all over his clothes. i heard he shows up at every lubavitcher simcha

Brisker said...

I'm sure AJ knows about the Satmar-Brisk connection but didn't take from Satmar's Keren Hatzolah af al pi kain, lol

tzuzik said...


This serene photo looks like the calm before the storm!

Anonymous said...

yankel said
i once heard that their was an issue with reading the letter from therebbe att the chupo and the satmar rov said that HE would read it vekach hava

tomoshaver said...

yankel
are u sure they read the letter of the Rebbe that early?

satmavich said...

I think that the yungerman in front of the Payer (if that's him) is R' Leibel Friedman, a son-in-law of R' Shloime Braver. The nice looking fella at the far left - standing with the hamburg- looks like R' Binyomin Willinger, (Munkatch/klausenburger)
R' Shloime Braver was married to a daughter of R' Yisroel Mayer Grunwald a son of the Arigas Habosem. I don't see the Tzelemer Ruv a uncle, or the Pupa and Chister Rabbonim, cousins.
Well all you need is to ask the Zajans mishpocho for answers. They're all over... From CH to Monsey and Lkwd.

first hand said...

כ'האב אליין געהערט פון ר'מאיר די פאלגענדע פרטים בנוגע זיין שידוך

בשעתו האט מען גערעדט וועגן אסך שידוכים פאר עם, אויף זיי אלע האט דער רבי ניט מסכים געווען. זיין טאטע האט אים געשריבן אז ס'רעדט זיך שידוך פאר אים אין ארץ ישראל, האט ער אנגעפאנגן צו טאן אין קריגן די פאסינדיקע פאפירן כדי צופארן אין א"י, אין יענע צייטן איז עס געווען שווער קריגן די וויזעס וכו' לפועל ווען ער האט שוין געקראגן די וויזא איז ער אריין צום רבי'ן אויף יחידות צו דערציילן דעם רבי'ן אז זיין טאטע וויל אז ער זאל פארן אין א"י און ער האלט בא פארן, האט דער רבי עם געזאגט "וועגן א שידוך זאלסטו ניט פארן קיין א"י, זאלסט זוכן א שידוך צווישן די אונגארישע". דאס איז געווען איוף זונטיק איוף דינסטאג האט מען שוין גערעדט די שידוך מיט וועמען ער האט חתונה גאמאכט.

פארדעם וואס ער איז געפארן אין וויליאמסבורג אויף דעם ווארט (דער ווארט איז פארגעקומען אין דער צימער פון דער סאטמער רב) איז ער אריין צום רבי'ן איוף יחידות מיט זיין טאטע'ן, ארויסגייענדיק האט דער רבי עם געזאגט, "אז בא זיי (ד.ה. בא די סאטמערער) פירט זיך א מנהג אז מען איז ניט מקפיד אז ס'זאל זיין א מנין בא דער ווארט [די קנין], דער צמח צדק האט געפסק'נט אז ס'דארף זיין א מנין, און מיר פירן אזוי, זאלסט זעהן אז ס'זאל זיין א מנין בא דער ווארט.

אז מען איז אנגעקומען קיין וויליאמסבורג האט ר' מאירס טאטע זיך געשמועסט מיטן סאטמער רב אין לערנען א משך זמן, נאך א וויילע האט דער סאטמער רב אויסגערופן "נו! לאמיר שוין מאכן דעם ווארט [הרב] יוס'ל [אשכנזי] בריינג כיבוד", האט דער חתן געווענדעט צום סאטמער רב זאגענדיק "איך קום יעצט פון מיין רבי'ן, (גלייך פארדעם וואס איך בין אהער געקומען) און דער רבי האט מיר געהייסן מקפיד זיין אז ס'זאל זיין א מנין הגם אז בא אייך פירט מען ניט אזוי. פלוצינג זעט ער ווי דער סאטמער רב כאפט אן אין דער האנט פון זיין שווער און רופט אויס יוס'ל ס'איז דא א מנין? און ס'איז געווארן א מנין.

נאכדעם וואס זיי זענען ארויס האט דער שווער א זאג געטאן צו זיין צוקונפט'דיקע איידעם "מאיר האסטו געהאט מזל, אז דער רבי וואלט ניט אנגעכאפט די האנט איז אויס שידוך!

פון די אויבנדערמאנטע מעשה קען מען גוט פארשטיין די מצב וואס איז געווען בא יענער שידוך און מסתמא אויכעט בא די חתונה.

[די חתונה איז איז געווען אין וויליאמסבורג, און מיר דוכט זיך אז דער סאטמער רב איז געווען מסדר קידושין אבער איך קעו ניט זאגן א הונדערט פראצענט.]

להעיר אז אין יענעם יאר איז דער סאטמערער רב'ס טאכטער אוועק און דער רבי איז געקומען מנחם אבל זיין כמפורסם

Bostoner said...

The Atzei Chayim passed away in R Chaim Cements fathers house. They had asked the Atze Chaim a shaalh and he forgot a maain Aavraham, He strted pacing back and forth and the aggravation of forgetting it caused him to pass away. R Chaim Cement was named after him. R Chaim Cemet went to be mikabel the Satmer Rav when he came to America at the port. There were only a few people there He went with his father.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

the Zajac mishpoochehe informs me that it's NOT Reb Meir Zajac, so the mystery is still unsolved. I'm asking around, but so far no answers.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I did learn the name of one more pictured: standing 2nd from right, with the grey suit is a young Chaim Alter Roth o"h, who was a Klausenberger Chossid. Also Reb Binyomin Williger is seen standing left with Homburg and dark beard.

Tsibeleh said...

Hirshel, we have here in bp (bm) ah tsigekimeneh einikil to reb binyumin. Why don't you ask him to ask his zaideh?

Tsibeleh said...

ich bin amul gefurin ah nesieh mit reb binyumin in der car, he seems to have an amazing memory.

Anonymous said...

The Choson looks like R Avraham Barber

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

this Avrohom Barber married Franczoz? did the Satmar Rov attend his wedding?

Anonymous said...

Another interesting anecdote in a smilar vein:


When R' Avraham Tzvi Landa shlit"a (who was a tomim in shanghai etc, of BP and presently in CH) was a chosson in 5709, his wife's side was Satmar (i can't remmeber their name, heard from an einikel of his) - and there was a strong svoro that the SR should be mesader kiddushin (chasuna was in willi IIRC). The chosson wanted the Lubavitcher Rebbe to come as well, and as the Rayatz wouldn't have been able, chassidim would ask the Ramash and he indeed did several.

He asked the Ramash, who said (along the lines of), if the SR will be there he should be mesader kiddushin. period. SO the chosson got the Ramash to at least farbreng by his ufruf-kidush (in 770). Unfortunately, the chosson didn't remember much from the ramash's divrei torah then (as he had said some lchaim, and thus it isn't included in the various likutim containing the rebbe's sichos before his nesius), beisdes for the fact that the rebbe would "darshan" on the chosson's name, and said about tzvi, has maylas "tzvi sheb'eder"..

Anonymous said...

I am the Anon from the Landa comment above:

Just to add, one of the famous photos of SR as mesader kiddushin - is taken from Landa's chupa..

moshe moshel said...

who cares?

shmilu said...

This pic is one of the reasons I come to the blog
Honestly, I can't stand most of Lubavitch with all it's meshugassen, cultish deification vechulu, especially when a gevorener, trying to prove "hiskashres" (a musag I detest )
BUT,
The pics and some of the history issues are great!
So is Bechhoffer when he visits , pity he doesn't post more often

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

happy to please you, Shmilu.

Mekusher. Hiskashrus. LOL.

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Bostoner

but it's not Rabbi Ciment's wedding

Unknown said...

besides those already named not sure who the choson is but i will tell you other people and rabonim who will give you a hint. the person who is speaking to who looks like r' mentlik is the amshinover rebbe from boro park r' yitzchok kalish, directly across from him is sitting his cousin the amshinover rebbe later from israel r' mayer'l (whose father r' shimon was still living). right next to yossel ashkenazy is r' shia bronstein. those three have shanchai in common

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

I don't think it's Reb Meir'l of Amshinov. The face looks all wrong, even if it is from the side. But Thanks for naming us some people! Then again, I may be WRONG!

Mentlik said...

Was Rav Mentlik originally a Poilishe? I know of a large Poilishe mishpocho with that name.

Mentlik said...

Can't find anything on his background besides this:

... heard from Rabbi Menachem
Mendel Tenenbaum that the rosh
yeshiva and Chassid, Rabbi
Mordechai Mentlik left the vale of
death in 1940 for London. There
he was supposed to sail to
America with many refugees. The
ship left early, on Shabbos, and he
did not want to board the ship for
the Rebbe Rayatz had told him to
review Chassidus on Shabbos in
the shul in London. If so, he had
to remain in London that
Shabbos.

They tried to dissuade him and
explained that the Rebbe meant
only if he was in London
according to plan, but since the
ship was sailing and this was a
matter of life and death, he should
go, but he didn’t listen.
The end of the story was that
the ship sank and all passengers
drowned.

Mentlik said...

http://www.shturem.org/index.php?section=news&id=48209

Rav Mentlik's sheva brochos in 1938. Would this be in Warsaw because Lubavitch had a presence there?

Unknown said...

1000% sure its r' meir'l of amshinov. i have other pictures of him at the same time

Mentlik said...

Since R' Chatche Feigin & R' Yuda Eber are pictured at the Mentlik sheva brochos, does that mean it was in Cholma where the two of them were roshei yeshiva together?

הצגים לעמו said...


!התמונה הוא רבה ונורא עם כל סביביו

Mentlik said...

A website about the Charlop mishpocho says that Cholma was in the Peskov district. It sounds more like Red Russia than White Russia but I can't find either place on a map.

There was a Cholm, which was a village on the outskirts of Kalinin, now known as Tver. Tver is north of Moscow, near Dubno.

R' Getzel Rubashkin apparently left Nevel to go learn in Cholma.

Not clear if Rav Mentlik was a Poilishe that he would end up in a yeshiva deep in Red Russia, or would that not be so unusual?

Anonymous said...

Mentlik,

Yes, he was Polish. If you search Chabad historical material you will find a lot on Rabbi Mentlik. Start with "Toldos Chabad b'Polin v'Latvia" & the Igros. These seforim have name indexes.

He & R' M.P. Katz were brother-in-laws, marrying 2 American sisters within months, right before the war. The 7 brachos (or vort) was in Poland because that is where the Rebbe & the yeshivah was (Warsaw-Otvotzk). He left right afterwards.

R' Mentlik was a big talmid chochom. His sefer is "Imrei Mordechai." He could spend a whole night shiur from the bimah just on the Rebbe's footnotes to the Yom-Tov letters. He was honored to make the siyum (or hascholoh) of the Yerushalmi at the 1st Siyum HaShas Yerushalmi (Ger) in Boro Park.

His accent was distinctively Polish.

He was the one who refilled the wine of the Rebbe's kidush cup during kos-shel-brochoh.

He was well beloved by both the older & younger bochurim. Nothing gave him more geshmak than bochurim who were into learning. He even went out of his way & traveled to give us young bochurim a special monthly shiur in Bovo Kamo - even though we weren't in 770 yet - because when he came to farher us he was duly impressed & wanted to continue learning with us.

He was very attached to his wife, Rebetsin "Gee," who was a real tsedeikes & never missed a chupah of a tomim at 770. They never had children.

--ZIY

Mentlik said...

Just curious if it was considered unusual for a Poilishe to become Lubavitch or at least to go learn in a Chabad yeshiva deep inside Red Russia, similar to a Yekke or Irishman going to learn in Mir.

Bobov Chusid said...

...and of the holy rebbi of bobov who lived in CH, had more with satmer then with chabad. the satmer rebbi kew his greatness in torah & avodah.

belz of today is fishy with lubavitch.

Mentlik said...

HebrewBooks.org has scans of Toldos Chabad for Israel, America & Soviet Russia. Poilin veLatvia is not available then I guess or would it be on another website?

Snopes said...

There is one of these converts to Bobov from another chassidus. (You know the shnit, he feels he has to prove he is the biggest Bobover chossid of them all). He has been going around saying on R' Naftulchik's father that the Satmar Rov told people he is a bigger boki in Nister than me. I mean, I have a lot of admiration for the Bobover and he was a big tzaddik and everything, but come on.

Tomashover said...

Mentlik
"Just curious if it was considered unusual for a Poilishe to become Lubavitch or at least to go learn in a Chabad yeshiva deep inside Red Russia, similar to a Yekke or Irishman going to learn in Mir."
Rav Mentlik never went to Russia, he learned in Chabad yeshivas in Poland. Tomchie Temimim in Poland in its short life had a alumni of 2000 talmidim its all documented in Rav Levins new sefer on that era..

moshe moshel said...

Unknown, can you please email me at moshemoshel72@gmail.com, I would love to see some old pictures of R Meir'l Amshinover Zt"l.
Thank you!

Bobov Chusid said...

snopes

you have zero idea who the bobov rebbi was, when satmer rebbi was in boro park he asked the bobov rebbi his questions, after all he was 'rav' of bobov 10 years before the war.

while living in crown hights the bobov rebbi did not turn to the luvbavitch rebbi to speak on gemarah. this is a known fact.

look what the belz rebbi of today spoke with the lubavitch rebbi. he wore his winter coat, even though it was hot inside.

Anonymous said...

Mentlik,

"Toldos Chabad b'Polin v'Latvia" just came out a year or 2 ago so it is not available (yet) as a scan. It is available by Kehos:

http://store.kehotonline.com/index.php?stocknumber=HH-TOLDC.S&deptid=3277&parentid=86&page=8&itemsperpage=10


--ZIY

Snopes said...

This guy is a Bobover claiming R' Shloyma was the ruv in the alter heim far tzen yor? R' Shloyma only took over from R' Bentzion hyd after the Nazis murdered him on 4th of Av, 1941. I didn't know that WWII ended in late summer of 1951.

Mentlik said...

Before anyone invests $100, what is the format of the Toldos Poilin? Do they only speak about the person alein vos hot gelernt in Tomchei T or also about his ancestors?

And how does it make sense to pay Kehos $91 for the set of 4 including the other medinos when they sell them separately for $20 each which comes out to about $80 for the set?

I wonder why Kehos says it is 606 pages yet Amazon says it is 516 pages.

I don't like to patronize Amazon al kol ponim because they just donated millions of dollars to fight for toyava "marriage" and because they have a master plan to put all other retailers out of business. They are building warehouses in every city to provide delivery within 2 to 3 hours. After all other retailers go bankrupt they will of course charge very high prices.

Mentlik said...

http://shturem.org/index.php?section=news&id=51344

And Shturem says it's only 370 pages

Is this Toldos series from Rav Levin the Lubavitch sefer yuchasin that the proud "geza"-niks always refer to? Or is that a guarded sefer at 770?

Anonymous said...

שמעתי מנכד הרב אברהן לנדא שתמונה זו אכן חתונתו

והאדמו"ר ר' יואל ישב בשעת חזרת המאמר דא"ח

Anonymous said...

The Stamerer Yingerman on the right with the plotcike biber hit is the later Pye Rav Z"l Reb Moshe Dov Weinberger

..שמאלו תחת said...

shmilu 12:07 said... "So is Bechhoffer when he visits , pity he doesn't post more often"

?מצא מין את מינו וניעור

Anonymous said...

It is well known that Rav BenTzion hyd left Bobov for a while (he went into golus) and Reb Shloime took over so the 10 years makes perfect sense - they called Bobover Ruv because he was called that in Europe.

BOBOW said...

It is well known that Rav BenTzion hyd left Bobov for a while (he went into golus) and Reb Shloime took over so the 10 years makes perfect sense - they called Bobover Ruv because he was called that in Europe.

צוציג'ל said...


דער ר' שלמה בראווער ע"ה איז גיווען פין די 'לייבוועכטער' פונם סאטמארער רב זצ"ל נאכ'ן קריג, ער איז גיווען דער בריח התיכון וואס האט באיינפלוסט דעם רבין צו קומען פאר א וויילע קיין אמעריקע! א גיוואלדיגער איש המעש!, חאטש ער איז דעמאלט גיווען א מלמד אין די צעלימער חדר! אסאך איז דא צירעדן פון איהם, איך פערזענדליך כ'בין גיווען 18 יאהר אלט נאן מיין חתונה כ'האב גיוואלט מאכ'ן א גישעפט אין די עיר הבירה מאנהעט'ן כ'בין ציגיגאנג'ן צי איהם בין מנחה למעריב אין פארגילייגט מיין עסק! תומ"י אנ שהות ער ער מיר גיגעבן א 'גרויסע' הלואה, דאס גישעפט שטייט נאך היינט - אנ מיר! - נ"ב יורשים כ'האב איהם באצאלט עד פ"א

Anonymous said...

דער בילד איז גגנבט פון בלאט די וואך פרשת תצא

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

איך האב עס געגנב'ט א וואך פריער???