Sunday, August 12, 2012

Rav Elyashiv's father was a "רב מטעם?" It seems not.





















Source


































In Russian Yiddish they called it a Kaziyaner Rov. It's funny that the blogger there was not dealing with that issue at all - maybe he overlooked it; He was dealing with the question of whether or not the Elyashivs changed their name only when they went up to Eretz Yisroel, and at the behest of the Chofetz Chaim. He brings this blurb in the Maskilic "המליץ" to prove that he had already taken his shver the בעל הלשם's name beforehand. (speaking "שפת קדשנו" in 1889 is pretty "advanced" if you ask me.) But no, our source tells us that it was another man with the same name, that it was a different Reb Avrohom Elyashiv. A cousin or uncle, perhaps. That the Reb Avrohom who is pictured here was born in 1880 and could be only 9 years at the time of this article. But was Rav Elyashiv's father also a רב מטעם? Even if he wasn't the one mentioned in the המליץ from תרמ"ט? Is it a coincidence that he was Rov in the same town as his relative? We need to get to the bottom of this. Another proof is a מזל טוב wish, also in המליץ, in תרנ"ט on the occasion of his marriage to Chaya Musha, daughter of Rav Shlomo Elyashiv (בעל הלשם).

  Wiki definition of רב מטעם

"רב מטעם" או "רב מטעם הממשלה" הוא כינוי שניתן לפקיד שמונה על ידי השלטונות ברוסיה הצארית החל משנות ה-40 של המאה ה-19 ועד ראשית המאה ה-20. תפקידו היה לשמש כרב רשמי של הקהילה היהודית וכנציגם מול הממשלה. עיקר אחריותו הייתה ניהול מרשם האוכלוסין של הקהילה (לידות, פטירות, נישואין וכו'). בדרך כלל נדרש "הרב מטעם" להיות בקי בשפת המדינה ובעל השכלה כללית. ידיעותיהם בענייני יהדות של המתמנים לתפקיד זה היו לעתים חסרות ובמקרים רבים כיהנו רבנים אחרים במקביל לרבנים הרשמיים מטעם הממשלה. בקהילות עניות שימש הרב לעתים גם כרופא וזאת על מנת לחסוך בהוצאות הקהילה.

18 comments:

moshe moshel said...

Now, THIS is a scoop! Shkoyach.

ACK said...

Hirshel - With all due respect, the source you linked to seems to prove that this wasn't Rav Elyashiv's father, rather a different Rav Avrohom Elyashiv.

Trying to stir up trouble?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

ומודה ועוזב ירוחם

Know it all said...

Hirshel
Was Elyshevs father rav in Homel at all? sorry that I dont know well the history of Maran Hashkdan,,but was he born in palestine or still in the Lita?

pitputim said...

Surely, the time they changed their name would have coincided with (at most as far back as) the time they discussed going to Israel with the Chafetz Chaim. Why would they seriously consider doing so before that? Furthermore, if they did do it before that, why would someone need to invent a story that they changed their name on the advice of the Chafetz Chaim? Accounts suggest that the Chafetz Chaim advised him of this in 1922 and that he immigrated in 1924.

RYSE was, of course, born in Lita, and came to Israel as a lad. The original name was Erener, but I've also seen Levinson?

Emm said...

RYSE was born in Lita, moved to Palestine when he was 12.

Agav, R' Shmuel Kaminetzky was born in Lita, had his bar mitzva on the boat to America

klainer said...

The real "message" of the picture is that Litvishe and white Russian Klei keidesh had peyos harosh.The curly peyeh is from the head not the beard.It's time for all litvakes esp. chasidei chabad to return to darchei aveiseinu.This must have changed in lubavitch somewhere around WW1. No need to feel inadequate anymore when the Teitelbaums and Hagers come over for afternoon tea.

Litvak said...

BielaRussiya is the same thing as Lita

revel said...

Klainer, u aint no anash! Since the Rashabs times, who had visible payos?

klainer said...

Yakov Maskalik,Elchonon Morozov,Leizer Nones,Horav Dovid Hirsh Chein ,all hassidim of the highest order, clearly had peyos harosh.Just look at their pictures.It is my point that over the years peyes almost disappeared in Lubavitch.I don't know why but the weekday kapote also disappeared by non rabbonishe Lubavitzer chassidim..By the way,the Freierdiker Rebbe himself writes that his father had a very thin peye coming down,so clearly he held of "peyos harosh."

layman said...

Klainer
"chasidei chabad to return to darchei aveiseinu.This must have changed in lubavitch somewhere around WW1."
I think that al pi kabola u dont mix the beard and peyoth....
Who said its a inyan to have darcie avisanie?????? is that chasidic thing??

Grosser Chochem said...

Klainer
until 770 there was no uniform minhag chabad....it was the Alter Rebbe's sidur and thats it....so when the minhag was established it was done they right way....

Grosser Chochem said...

Klainer
"By the way,the Freierdiker Rebbe himself writes that his father had a very thin peye coming down,so clearly he held of "peyos harosh."
do you really thing the Rebbe went aganst his FIL on this one....

Grosser Chochem said...

Klainer
Do you know that the Rebbe Maharash stopped the Bigdie Levinim on shabos and stopped wearing the shtrimel out of town.....The Rebbe Reshab sttopped the Gartels by Bucherim...
Darkie avosinie is not a ikkar in chabad.... In Galicia they believed that it was the barrier to the outside haskola influences...which obviously did not help since the majority in poland and galicia went secular before the WAR...

klainer said...

You're comparing gartlech and bigdei lovon to peyos harosh?-something that all talmidei ha Besht without exception follow with mesires nefesh from Skver to Satmer,from Ashlag to Amshinov.The answer is that Communism and modernity made it hard to openly have peyos in Moscow and Leningrad.The times have changed in America. No?Even the Rav Kook chevreh have peyos because they know its the right thing to do even if many of their gedolim in previous generations didn't do so.

rebel said...

Rayatz nor Ramash had visible peyos, any hesber ever given? Especially in light of what's claimed above in the name of rayatz, about the Rashab having real peyos..

Grosser Chochem said...

Klainer
"You're comparing gartlech and bigdei lovon to peyos harosh?-something that all talmidei ha Besht without exception follow with mesires nefesh from Skver to Satmer,from Ashlag to Amshinov"
is someones has Peyos its mesiras nefesh...to have long Peyoth is a minhag like all minhagim..

lamdan said...

1] im surprised no one knows that there were frum and even chasidishe rabonim mitaam in russia and he could have very well been one of those.
2] in igros kodesh of the rebbe chelek 20 in a letter to rabbi yolles he writes the reasons why in chabad we dont wear long peyos and not even behind the ears (quoting the munkatcher!). ayen shom.