R'Itche probably became Lubavitch. Interesting to note that besides for never "hearing" that having discernible peyos is a big non-no in Lubavitch, he never "heard" about the "famous" hakpodo of not sleeping in the sukka, cholileh
Excuse me Reb Yosef G. IN Sefer Hazezoim almost every Schneersohn pictured including desc of R. Baruch Shalom have peyoth. Its hard to tell if the Bobroisker had peyoth. His son Reb Mendel Hayad did not (lechuore). Rav David Zvi Chen did not have peytoh ? I believe most Lubavitcher had peyoth before WW1 but it changed then perhaps under the influence of modernity and the difficulty of wearing Jewish levush under Communism. Some Lubavitchers did not even have beards under Communsim. A surdut was man dekare shmeih for most Anash in Stalin's gan eden.Therefore I must presume peytoh went out the window too.Or maybe in TTL there was an hakpoda against peyoth as well ? Now the Beth HOrav is a different story the few pictures of the Raza, Ramam of Corsica, Ramal Ginzburg Ramam Horenstein show no peyoth Its hard to tell about Reb Levik. Great picture as the Stropkover Rebbe remarked when he was photographed - zollen di zukumftike deyreszayn vi a farzaytike Yid zeyt ois- So let the Lubavitch youth of today see what a chasid par excellance looked like !
It's been debated for yrs if the FR had long paiyos. Some claim they saw paiyos by the tahara. The Rebbe lost most of his hair at 10 yo when he contacted typhus and was very ill, so peiyos (imho) wouldn't have grown either way.
The Kapuster had peyos as mentioned in the רשימות הרב"ש, that the Rasha"b said he remembered the Kapuster as being tall with long peyos, which incidently implies that it was unusual and the Rashab himself didn't have peyos. It's pretty clear from the pictures of the Rayatz that he did not have peyos. I also heard many years ago from someone that remembered the Rasha"b that he didn't have peyos. I think that it was forbidden by one of the Czarist decrees, which is why litvishe don't have peyos.
Hirshel, Are you sure R'Itche was born into a Lubavitch family? From what I recall he was not.. His fathers name was shlomo menachem mendel, so maybe there was a Chabad connection?
It's quite clear that the Rayatz indeed DID have peyos, under the yarmulke as the Gerrers. Nissan Gordon (=N. Ben Yochanan) writes in one of the Yiddishe Heim issues, that R"H 5703(?) he was davening as a youngster with the FR, and couldn't hold himslef from laughing, when one of the FR's peiyos fell out from under his yarmulke (m'rov dveikus?).. It was only one that fell out not two, and thus amused the lad..
RE The Rebbe --
As is evident from photos and those who were there - the Rebbe did have peyos either resting over his ears, or at times behind, but undiscernable thin ones.
The Rayaatz wore a very small kappel and its clear he had no peyoth tied up under the kapple as it would have been seenin the many pictures wher ehe is not wearing his rabbonische kappelush.. By the way Iasked BG several times and he answered that grandfatehr did not have long peyoth RabbI Sholom Ber Schneersohn of Flatbush claims in writing that the Rayaatz did indeed have long peyoth.. I can not explain Reb Nissan Gordon's comments zarich Iyyun !
Why would Nissan Gordon find that funny? If anything, it's "funny" how his kids halten zich the clean shaven noisei degel for Chabad in the dumb 5 Towns newspaper rag that is full of krumma hashkofos and advertisers with dubious kashrus standards.
i was at a chassuna once & saw a guy who was obviously a baal teshuva. he was immaculately groomed with a very expensive heimishe type suit, spotless cholent top & looked like he had paid a visit to a very expensive salon. not one hair was out of place. his beard was at the same time formidable but elegantly trimmed & his payos hanging out were not gekreizilter but nicely sculptured big payos. he sort of looked like a younger version of avrohom fruchthandler
whoever was standing around platzed when someone cracked a joke that if there was such a thing as ingrisher chassidishe in chaim berlin, this guy is it
Rabbis Bentche Shemtov (this is why perhaps some of his sons also have so), Z Havlin (Toras Emes), Yuzevitsh, M Weber, YD Zislin(?), Yudasin(?). Estulin too, but he did not learn in Lubavitch.
the Piekarskis I mentioned here are Russian, not the Rosh Yeshiva's kids. They have no real shaychus to other kreizen, unless their mother is Polish or Hungarian.
Some even claimed that the last Rebbe also had tiny thin farkatcheter peyes at the very top of the מקום הפיאה like his shver. IIRC, R' YD Groner also said that the Rayatz had such peyes.
If the reason why Chabad does not had full peyes that is יורד על מידותיו is לחומרא & עפ"י האריז"ל, so that the נובלות חכמה of the hair גם not overlap with the י"ג ,תיקוני דיקנא & where the peyes ends is where the beard begins - it would make sense why the Rebbeyim who did have it (a personal chumreh of בית הרב?) it would be on the very top & so small & bahalten - in order that it remain separate, while at the same time the lower part of the peyes did end where the beard began.
Other prominent Chabadniks with Peyes:
Many of those in Eretz Hakoydesh, such as the Slonims from Chevron (the famous picture of the 5 Slonim generations), & even later Chabadniks, esp. the Yerushalmis, like the RY of Toras Emes R' MYL Shapiro, R' ShILA Eliazrov, R' M Groner (perhaps smaller), & others (mishpochis Eizenbach, Erentray, Roth, Blau, Kohens, Deitshes, Farkash, etc, etc,). (Today, R' Yeruslavski & R' Ashkenazi & R' Hertzel & R' Drukman too goes around with some peyes.)
Mashpiah of Lud, R' CH. SH. Bruk had peyes, as did I think the Rov of Kfar Chabad R' Garelik. R' Dovid Chanzin also had peyes. Rav Landau, both father & son, also. The Babroiskers like R' Zevin & R' Telushkin may also have had, albeit smaller.
Even some of the Russians, like the Neveler Getzel Rubashkin, had some peyes. IIRC R' Avrohom Mayorer (Drizin) had some peyes, as did Berke Chein. Radatz Chein also had I think.
Believe it or not, IIRC some real דור השביעיניקס like Berl Shemtov & Meir Harlig also have peyes.
& of course others had it from their pre-Chabad days, including R' Chadakov, R' Greenglass, R' Hertz, the Zirkinds, R' Heller, Friedman (father of Manis a Avrohom Fried), many of the Poilisher, the Vechteristin & many others...
To note, that the whole inyen of shorter peyes is only once the beard begins growing. But before, as a child or teenager, the Lubavitcher should have peyes at least as long until at least the bottom of the ear (this is how many kids in Oholei Torah go). Anything shorter (such as until the earlobe) is considered a kule. Once the beard grows in, the peyes get shorter lichumreh.
In the yeshivos I never got it klor what the Mishna Brura means "ad shehalechi misparek". Does it mean the bottom tip of the earlobe or the top of the earlobe, or even higher?
I think I am safe to assume that it does not mean even lower than the bottom tip of the earlobe, although that did not stop plenty of yeshivishe chevra from going around like Elvis Presley lookalikes with super long & wide sideburns. They were bederech klal far'chenyokter.
I marvel at how people can fool themselves in believing what they want to believe. The last Lubavitcher rebbe did not have peyos as was obvious to everyone who saw him.
until the rebbe lubavitch never touched there peyos i hears clearly from yisroel gorden that on the first night rh 5704 the fr left peah fell out from under his yarmuka and went down till his shoulders but the rebbe did trim his peyos like his father mitaami kabbalah
25 comments:
ר' איטשע דער מתמיד, האט א חסידישע צורה פון א פוילישער אפשטאם! מה לילוד אישה בינינו? -ליבאוויטש
Peyos too!
moshe moshel said...
Peyos too!
דער -אפגעפארענער- טאטע האט נאך פיאות, זיינע ליבאב ב"ת קינדער מסתמא שוין נישט
His son, Tzemach (shver of Leibel Groner), did not have peyes:
http://www.geni.com/people/Tzemach-Gurevitch/6000000002911323705
Bichlal, Reb Itche was known for his extra chumres & hidurim - & therefore he had certain hanhogos that to the Russians seemed "Poylish."
-ZiY
R'Itche probably became Lubavitch.
Interesting to note that besides for never "hearing" that having discernible peyos is a big non-no in Lubavitch, he never "heard" about the "famous" hakpodo of not sleeping in the sukka, cholileh
R' Itche came from Lubavitcher Chassidim. He was born in a Lubavitcher kolonie.
Excuse me Reb Yosef G. IN Sefer Hazezoim almost every Schneersohn pictured including desc of R. Baruch Shalom have peyoth. Its hard to tell if the Bobroisker had peyoth. His son Reb Mendel Hayad did not (lechuore). Rav David Zvi Chen did not have peytoh ? I believe most Lubavitcher had peyoth before WW1 but it changed then perhaps under the influence of modernity and the difficulty of wearing Jewish levush under Communism. Some Lubavitchers did not even have beards under Communsim. A surdut was man dekare shmeih for most Anash in Stalin's gan eden.Therefore I must presume peytoh went out the window too.Or maybe in TTL there was an hakpoda against peyoth as well ?
Now the Beth HOrav is a different story the few pictures of the Raza, Ramam of Corsica, Ramal Ginzburg Ramam Horenstein show no peyoth Its hard to tell about Reb Levik.
Great picture as the Stropkover Rebbe remarked when he was photographed - zollen di zukumftike deyreszayn vi a farzaytike Yid zeyt ois- So let the Lubavitch youth of today see what a chasid par excellance looked like !
"discernible peyos is a big non-no in Lubavitch"
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSxoNGgJ94OuzgSrs2rpnBNhOQcbs8Nt3NEiDVj5_d_-oZT1NbNvQ&t=1
That makes it official that R' Avrom Fruchthandler can't be a Lubavitcher
It's been debated for yrs if the FR had long paiyos. Some claim they saw paiyos by the tahara.
The Rebbe lost most of his hair at 10 yo when he contacted typhus and was very ill, so peiyos (imho) wouldn't have grown either way.
The Kapuster had peyos as mentioned in the רשימות הרב"ש, that the Rasha"b said he remembered the Kapuster as being tall with long peyos, which incidently implies that it was unusual and the Rashab himself didn't have peyos. It's pretty clear from the pictures of the Rayatz that he did not have peyos. I also heard many years ago from someone that remembered the Rasha"b that he didn't have peyos. I think that it was forbidden by one of the Czarist decrees, which is why litvishe don't have peyos.
Hirshel,
Are you sure R'Itche was born into a Lubavitch family?
From what I recall he was not..
His fathers name was shlomo menachem mendel, so maybe there was a Chabad connection?
@An Ailmesher --
It's quite clear that the Rayatz indeed DID have peyos, under the yarmulke as the Gerrers. Nissan Gordon (=N. Ben Yochanan) writes in one of the Yiddishe Heim issues, that R"H 5703(?) he was davening as a youngster with the FR, and couldn't hold himslef from laughing, when one of the FR's peiyos fell out from under his yarmulke (m'rov dveikus?).. It was only one that fell out not two, and thus amused the lad..
RE The Rebbe --
As is evident from photos and those who were there - the Rebbe did have peyos either resting over his ears, or at times behind, but undiscernable thin ones.
Of course the Litvisher had prominent payos in many cases. There is just no hechrach
The Rayaatz wore a very small kappel and its clear he had no peyoth tied up under the kapple as it would have been seenin the many pictures wher ehe is not wearing his rabbonische kappelush.. By the way Iasked BG several times and he answered that grandfatehr did not have long peyoth
RabbI Sholom Ber Schneersohn of Flatbush claims in writing that the Rayaatz did indeed have long peyoth..
I can not explain Reb Nissan Gordon's comments zarich Iyyun !
Why would Nissan Gordon find that funny? If anything, it's "funny" how his kids halten zich the clean shaven noisei degel for Chabad in the dumb 5 Towns newspaper rag that is full of krumma hashkofos and advertisers with dubious kashrus standards.
i was at a chassuna once & saw a guy who was obviously a baal teshuva. he was immaculately groomed with a very expensive heimishe type suit, spotless cholent top & looked like he had paid a visit to a very expensive salon. not one hair was out of place. his beard was at the same time formidable but elegantly trimmed & his payos hanging out were not gekreizilter but nicely sculptured big payos. he sort of looked like a younger version of avrohom fruchthandler
whoever was standing around platzed when someone cracked a joke that if there was such a thing as ingrisher chassidishe in chaim berlin, this guy is it
Some more peyes:
Rabbis Bentche Shemtov (this is why perhaps some of his sons also have so), Z Havlin (Toras Emes), Yuzevitsh, M Weber, YD Zislin(?), Yudasin(?). Estulin too, but he did not learn in Lubavitch.
-- ZiY
Hirshel Tzig
Efraim Piekarski
Binyomin Klein
Rabbi CMA Hodakov
Berke Chein
Zisel Piekarski
The Piekarskis have enough shaychus to non-Chabad kreizen that it's not a raaya from them. The same thing goes for Hungarian gevoreners.
Alter
the Piekarskis I mentioned here are Russian, not the Rosh Yeshiva's kids. They have no real shaychus to other kreizen, unless their mother is Polish or Hungarian.
Some even claimed that the last Rebbe also had tiny thin farkatcheter peyes at the very top of the מקום הפיאה like his shver. IIRC, R' YD Groner also said that the Rayatz had such peyes.
If the reason why Chabad does not had full peyes that is יורד על מידותיו is לחומרא & עפ"י האריז"ל, so that the נובלות חכמה of the hair גם not overlap with the י"ג ,תיקוני דיקנא & where the peyes ends is where the beard begins - it would make sense why the Rebbeyim who did have it (a personal chumreh of בית הרב?) it would be on the very top & so small & bahalten - in order that it remain separate, while at the same time the lower part of the peyes did end where the beard began.
Other prominent Chabadniks with Peyes:
Many of those in Eretz Hakoydesh, such as the Slonims from Chevron (the famous picture of the 5 Slonim generations), & even later Chabadniks, esp. the Yerushalmis, like the RY of Toras Emes R' MYL Shapiro, R' ShILA Eliazrov, R' M Groner (perhaps smaller), & others (mishpochis Eizenbach, Erentray, Roth, Blau, Kohens, Deitshes, Farkash, etc, etc,). (Today, R' Yeruslavski & R' Ashkenazi & R' Hertzel & R' Drukman too goes around with some peyes.)
Mashpiah of Lud, R' CH. SH. Bruk had peyes, as did I think the Rov of Kfar Chabad R' Garelik. R' Dovid Chanzin also had peyes. Rav Landau, both father & son, also. The Babroiskers like R' Zevin & R' Telushkin may also have had, albeit smaller.
Even some of the Russians, like the Neveler Getzel Rubashkin, had some peyes. IIRC R' Avrohom Mayorer (Drizin) had some peyes, as did Berke Chein. Radatz Chein also had I think.
Believe it or not, IIRC some real דור השביעיניקס like Berl Shemtov & Meir Harlig also have peyes.
& of course others had it from their pre-Chabad days, including R' Chadakov, R' Greenglass, R' Hertz, the Zirkinds, R' Heller, Friedman (father of Manis a Avrohom Fried), many of the Poilisher, the Vechteristin & many others...
To note, that the whole inyen of shorter peyes is only once the beard begins growing. But before, as a child or teenager, the Lubavitcher should have peyes at least as long until at least the bottom of the ear (this is how many kids in Oholei Torah go). Anything shorter (such as until the earlobe) is considered a kule. Once the beard grows in, the peyes get shorter lichumreh.
--ZiY
In the yeshivos I never got it klor what the Mishna Brura means "ad shehalechi misparek". Does it mean the bottom tip of the earlobe or the top of the earlobe, or even higher?
I think I am safe to assume that it does not mean even lower than the bottom tip of the earlobe, although that did not stop plenty of yeshivishe chevra from going around like Elvis Presley lookalikes with super long & wide sideburns. They were bederech klal far'chenyokter.
the piekarskis mother zol lang leben is from klimovitch
I marvel at how people can fool themselves in believing what they want to believe. The last Lubavitcher rebbe did not have peyos as was obvious to everyone who saw him.
until the rebbe lubavitch never touched there peyos i hears clearly from yisroel gorden that on the first night rh 5704 the fr left peah fell out from under his yarmuka and went down till his shoulders but the rebbe did trim his peyos like his father mitaami kabbalah
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