Thursday, December 10, 2009

?איי איי איי! ר' בערל אויכעט



R-L: Reb Berel Povarski, Reb Yoel Kahan, Reb Chaim Peretz Berman (SIL of RBP and Eynikel of the Steipler. His father Reb Shlomo Berman was a chavrusah of Reb Yoel for years in Lubavitcher Yeshivah in Tel Aviv)

Read the whole article in this week's "שעה טובה"

We knew this to be the case, despite the facade they put up all these years. In Di Lita there was no such thing as "Daas Teyreh," you did as you understood because you believed in yourself just as much as you did in the Rov and Rosh Yeshivah. You didn't believe that the Rov or Rosh Yeshivah fliht in di himmlen, so there was nothing he "saw" that you didn't see yourself. Obviously I'm speaking about Jews who knew how to learn, not simpletons. {You may even say that the fact Reb Elchonon HY"D went against the consensus when it came to debate Zionism and the creation of the State of Israel also follows that logic. He didn't subject himself to the views of then Gedolei Hador.} So the fact that there was this one big wall of Litvishkeit/Bnei Torah seemed a little bit of a stretch, at least for some of us. We always knew better and could not prove it, and we figured that they were afraid to speak up about this new movement that cut large swaths of Jews from the fabric of Orthodox Jewry. The last few weeks we've been witness to cracks in that black wall, and we cannot be more excited. Not because of any imagined "victory," G-d forbid, but rather because we're happy the sons of Israel get along as they should.

Watch Video, if you so please - or download it here

More GREAT pictures here



After Reb Yoel visited Reb Aron Leib Shteynman last week, the attacks came soon after. The hierarchy wasn't happy that the #2 Gadol (or # 3 depending on whom you ask) was meeting with the enemy with no conditions for reconciliation met beforehand. The Israeli Yated attacked Chabad with a vengeance, and basically took a swipe at Reb Aron Leib for not remembering Maran and his righteous battles a few short years ago. I'm sure guys like R Shmuel Deutsch, the ultimate Hungarian-Litvak of our times, were out to excommunicate RAL. This bodes well for all of us. It seems like Schneur is right; the only ones that have issues are those who never saw Di Lita or Reysen in theirs or their parents' lives, and to them Chabad is evil. Reb Yoel had a successful few days after that meeting. Large crowds came to see and hear him in Binyanei HaUmah. He met many other Chassidishe Rebbes and sons of Rebbes. There was a meeting with Rav YT Weisz, GaAV"D of the Edah Hacharedis which is also bg news, considering that he's become a big Kano'i since assuming the leadership of that community. But there was bigger news.



When you watched the meeting with Reb Aron Leib, despite the smiles and the handshakes, there was no warmth there, no chemistry, if you will. RAL never heard of Reb Yoel, or so it seemed, and you maybe thought to yourself "MAYBE they're taking advantage of an older man." RAL is still from the pre-War generation, meaning he was an older bachur when the war came around and basked in the glow of the pre-War greats. Reb Yoel left the Soviet Union at the age of 5 in 1935 and grew up in Tel Aviv, where he had RBD's father Reb Dovid Povarski as Rosh Yeshiva in Yeshivas Achei Tmimim in Tel Aviv. RAL was never part of the great "teilung" in 1989, at least that's what I'd like to believe. That's "crack 1." Now when it came to Reb Berel Povarski it was totally different. These pictures don't lie; they tell a story of how layers and layers of hate and divisiveness come crashing down in one just a few short minutes. You might say that they're having a grand old time! All that was missing was a glezeleh mashkeh and it would be picture-perfect. You realize how all this could have been avoided if only.... No, I won't point fingers here, not at my group nor at any other, I'm just thinking out loud. And I'm not claiming any idiotic "Didan Notzachs" either. I'm just very, very happy to see it. One thing's for sure now, I know which side I'm on when it comes to the Ponovezher internal conflict!



Here too the naysayers will say that this is nothing but sweet revenge for Reb Berel, since his father was treated so terribly at the hands of Maran's people years ago. The irony in this is that when Lubavitchers point to Maran's dislike of Lubavitch and point to a certain snub that may or may not have happened as the reason for the dislike they're laughed out of the room. How dare they accuse him of having human emotions and feelings and acting on them, they say! I understand that RBP is not on Maran's level yet, but he is part of the general daas torah consensus, and if we accuse him where will it end? I call this visit to RBP "crack # 2" in the walls that divide us. There's still much to do, on either side, but the fact that Reb Yoel was the one that shlepped around to see all these Rabbonim shows us that he's interested in thawing the ice, despite the fact the wasn't the one that built those walls. Now the onus is on other Rabbonim in the Litvishe/Yeshivishe camp to reciprocate and try and bridge the great divide that splits families, friends and classmates for no apparent reason. May Der Ayberhster give them all lange, gezunte yohren.

57 comments:

Anonymous said...

כידוע, הסיבה לסירוב העיקש של ´הגאון´ להפגש עם בעל התניא, היה בשל חששו מאותם חסידים, שלאחר המפגש יוכלו לומר לכל העולם שהם צודקים, והראיה שאפילו הגר"א קיבל אותם...
מי שיודע את צורת הפגישה בין ר´ אהרון לייב שטיינמן לחויזר, ואת אי התיאום טרם הפגישה, (פשוט שערוריה ליודעים), מבין, עד כמה צדק הגר"א!
הנה, דפק שמשו של החויזר בביתו של הרב שטיינמן, כשפתח המשב"ק של הרב שטיינמן את הדלת ראה לפניו יהודי מבוגר שכלל לא זיהה(!), לשאלתו אודות הענין, נאמר לו שהוא מעונין להפגש עם הרב לצורך ענין מסוים שלא פירט...
שמשו של הרב שטיינמן הכניסו פנימה מפאת כבודו של יהודי מבוגר!
זה שהרב שטיינמן יהודי יר"ש ולא זרק אותו מכל המדרגות, גרם לכך שכל החבדניקים יכולים לראות בעצם הפגישה כסוג של פיוס...
לא מיניה ולא מקצתיה!
אוי כמה צדק הגר"א! הוא הכיר את נפש החסידים...

Anonymous said...

It's good to have a reminder every 15 years of how sly Chabad is, I'm sure they learned their lesson. We'll see you again in 15 years when they do this shtick again, and the next choizer meets the next moran.

Yossle said...

ayn vort klopt nisht mit di anderah.

One of Tzig's big campaigns is that the Bney Torah always hated Chabad and never showed appreciation for the infinite good Chabad did for. They always used Chabad when it suited them and was convenient, but reciprocated with hatred - they
let them starve to death in Japan. (Like Reb Yoilesh said when someone was mad at him, 'let me see what favor I must have done for that person that makes him hate me'.)

This is part of Tzig's maruchuch that Rav Shach was just rehashing old fights (which was RMMS's talking point), the old hatred.

That being said, the beginning of the post regarding Reb Elchonen is irrelevant to the point about evryone hating Chabad - which was universal and has no shaychus to the point of the post. (Unless the author is desperate at taking cheap shots and then takes the moral high ground when the oylam starts getting nasty about Chabad)

Agav, RZ's and Mizrachi party have no shaychus to the Dvar Avrum and Reb Issur Zalman. They didn't take Kook's view about the religious significance of the state and they weren't, c"v, kals like many of the later day Mizrahis who got the well-paying (in kovod hamedumah and gelt) gov't jobs.

Kurtz uhn sharph: you think the bney Teyreh in the Lita would be pro Steinsaltz, pro religious Zionism (whose daugthers go to Sheirut Leumi) pro Goren's perversions of psakim (you can predict which way he will paskin on each issue), pro Chabad?

And BTW, RBP is not from Maran's mentchin.

Agav: Reb Elchonon was being mivatel zich to Reb Yisroel Meir.

Agav, how far has the glory of the Chabad group have fallen. Remember the late eighties and early nineties when Lubavitchers walked around with pride and self-confidence, when they were convinced that the Rebbe would, any second now, reveal himself, and then 770 will be implanted in its totality in Jerusalem and the world will be full of knowledge of the Rebbe's sichas. They were proud then, like the brown shirts in the 30's, dreaming for Chabad Uber Alles. Then, the Rebbe didn't have to go anywhere - they all went to him to pay their respects; on his turf.

How low has Chabad sunk! Now, their biggest gun has to drag his beard to enemy territory and Lubavitchers are drooling over themselves with glee! mey-igrah rumuh libirah amiktah!

Moshiach darf shoyn kumen

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Yossle

tu zich arayn in di sugyah and you'll see it's not that difficult to understand

the CC was no longer bein hachaim when the vote happened...

Yossle said...

"tu zich arayn in di sugyah and you'll see it's not that difficult to understand"

You must be living in the post-Daas Teyreh era. I should take your word for it?

BTW, Reb Yisroel Meir was alive when Reb Elchonon wrote those letters to Reb Avrom Yeshaya about tziyonims (the Chazon Ish was more meykel) and the additional letters that were sent to Kook when he decided to speak at the Chanukat Habayit of Hebrew U which was created in order to be mizaleph kol davar shebekdushah. That was right after the histalkus of Reb Yisroel Meir.

Bored said...

To Anon 5:49:
With so many years already in the forecast, where does Moshiach fit into your picture?

Yossle said...

HT,

Bat tzushtel. Chabad thinks that the whole campaign of Reb Lazer was a response to previous 'snubs' (?). They looked at him like less than a regular person. The regular person wouldn't react so strongly to that. A large chunk of the oylam hayeshivas wouldn't think Rebbe would spend so much koyches for long-term revenge.

N said...

Wow. It's incredible how much enmity there can be as a result of a post about peace. Looking at you Yossle.

Anonymous said...

Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:42:00 PM

he came, we are just waiting for hisgalus, nobody can predict hisgalus, even the rebbe couldn't.

avremel said...

Well,
Hirshel,I've got to say you are trying not to say things which will get you into trouble, trying to be less provocative and more accepting.Even, acknowledging(!!)apparently, that things could have been handled differently on the Lubavitch side too! If my understanding of this quote is correct "No, I won't point fingers here, not at my group nor at any other, I'm just thinking out loud. And I'm not claiming any idiotic "Didan Notzachs" either. "Are you actually conceding that there is "blame" on both sides???
(so as not to inflame the blog again this is in brackets for those that can't stand any critical analysis.Skip these brackets! I seems that you realize how the "first" Didon notzach against the eynikel turned any thinking persons stomach and you are not repeating it here.The reason was a lack of yiddishe sensibility:You win a yid,especially the FR only eynikel in a goyishe court,take the win quietly without this terrible gloating)

I think that your analysis of the meeting with R'Berel as being a "massive" crack in the Snag armour is incorrect.R'Berel is bichlal not an ideologue and was never looked up to as a godol.He is a wonderful maggid shiur and abog lamdan,not an ideologue.He has nothing against Lubavitch probably besides for what the olom hayeshivos generally did not see the genius of the Sichos .It does not talk to them it's a different type of learning.You''ll notice how R'Berel relates that the rebbe told him that a goy has no bechira, but when R'Berel said that in Ramba'm it says everyone has bechira, the rebbe told him that that was "far maten toireh"R'Berel sees this pshetel as "modeneh,nein?".Also, he says that he wanted to speak in learning and he repeats "az ehr (the rebbe)hot gevolt redden zyneh inyonim" again, seemingly seeing this a "different".So,actually, Rav Shteinman accepting and talking to R'Yoel is the bigger crack, but both are not "earth shattering"

avremel said...

Btw,
I don't know if anyone realized that shturem.net messed up the story about the "gutteh yid" R'yoel told over.The story was that the Lubavitcher menahel r'chaim brook was AGAINST going to the levaya and r'dovid was the one who said that if a yeshiva bisheinus does not go it would be a chilul hashem.Also COL claims that r'bEREL AND r'yOEL knew each other well back in the day.Well,R'Yoel in the beginning of the talk says "ich gedenk aych nisht" The question R'Berel was asked by r'yoel was apparently if he learned in the yeshiva to which r'berel said no, but he knew all the talmidim

Ben Teyreh said...

Question here: Does Chabad do ANYTHING anymore that's not controlled by the PR machine?

Even R' Yeyil who's managed till now more or less to stay out of the spotlight has become victim to the beast!

I have no issue with him meeting the litvishe R"Y but when you have a camera crew documenting every move it's hard to take this seriously.

It looks more like Chabad is preparing a documentary for their PR pump, along with the Holtzberg levaya r"l (what a bizoyon!!!) and upsherin etc. etc.

I guess the theory is as long as your name is in the papers you're not dead. (And you make a few bucks too)

Anonymous said...

The Benai Berak spin doctors are working on full gear, but how come the reporters of the Yated didn"t chap the spin what our first Anon blogger is spinining, it looks like the new talking points that the BB hate brigades, are distributing to the herd.
Sorry for bursting the baloon, but if Rav Stienman believes that Chabad is the Kat as the posek hador bEmuna veDies baal Avi Ezri screamed by the infamous Yad Eliyu gathering,then Reb Yoel is the Nossen Hazosi of the Kat, so who with a little Yiras Shmaim would accept Nossen Hoazosi at his door,and shmooz some nice small talk and take his missionary books with reverance, even the Lubavicher Rebbe (in the popular video) threw on the floor a missionary book,Plus he had the opputunity to be Mochiach him to mend his ways,So I think we can conclude that he believes that the Avi Ezri statements were sheer hyperventilation, that gets cured when the water waves get calm.

Anonymous said...

Yosele

"Remember the late eighties and early nineties when Lubavitchers walked around with pride and self-confidence"
the chabad confidence of the redemption of the geula by the Rebbe or anyone else is part of the 13 principle, and if you dont adhere to it, you are a nebech apikores according to your Reb elchonon in the of Reb chaim

voiceoftruth said...

"Now the onus is on other Rabbonim in the Litvishe/Yeshivishe camp to reciprocate and try and bridge the great divide that splits families, friends and classmates for no apparent reason."

No apparent reason? No Apparent Reason? Are you totally missing what people have been writing here for years? Are you living in a cave in Russia with an endless supply of Stoli? Let me spell it out: the great divide is caused by the alternate religion that chabad seems to have set up for itself. The great divide is caused by the impression that is gotten from chabad that nothing else has any value. The great divide is caused (dare I write this? will it get me banned from this squeaky clean and friendly site?) by very vocal and in-your-face chabad talking to, kissing, praying to a dead person. The great divide is caused by many of the same vocal factions claiming that said dead person as the savior.
The great divide is NOT caused by the lack of the white beards on either end drinking glasses of tea with each other. Nor will that bridge the great divide.

fakewood inc. said...

im surprised i havent heard anyone talk about this in lakewood.

Anonymous said...

BenTerye
Do you apply this facts and logic by learning too? I pity the Shver that married his daugter to a krumme kup and spending his hard earned graitzer on a an horetz.
FYI
In the 770 basement there was a meeting between Krinsky,Shemtov, Kotlarsky, Aranov, Cunin, on the Masa Hamalchus of Reb Yoel which Bekiche he should wear Tuesday and what silver cane he should carry on Wendesday, and then where he should sit by Toldos Aron Rebbe and where he should sit at the Pinsker Rebbe, we hope that the freedom of information act will force the chabad kremlin to publicize the ptotocols of the basement meetings, and we will realize that our BenTerye saw with toradiger Eigelech, what we the laymen couldnt visualize

Anonymous said...

Voice for???
Is that all you can come up with ?
death and mashkeh? you belong to some skull and bone asylum that they are worshiping the satan? from your long verbal monuloges it seems that your medication works one way only

Anonymous said...

Crack #3 is coming, my family is going to join our lubi cousins chanuka party this year.

(did I forget to mention we join every year?)

Anonymous said...

tzig you are lost in the litvishe world. reb berel amd reb lazer never got along. reb berel always held that reb lazer outshined his father reb dovid so i am really not sure what the surprise is in these photos?

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

Anon
9:26

I think I made it quite clear that R Berel was not on good terms with R Lazer. What I was trying to say and forgot to stress the point was that I thinl most people in the world see the Litvishe world. They don't realize that the Greinemans don't like these ones and that the briskers hate everybody and that R Dovid Povarski was on the outs with RLS, etc. So the fact that these two met and greeted R Yoel shows the world -at least in some peoples' minds- that things have changed in the Yeshivishe world. כנלע"ד

yehupitz said...

To summarize:

1) This means nothing because the Litvak in the Story was tricked into meeting RYK.

2) This means nothing because the Litvak in the Story is not a True Daas Torah Litvak (TM).

3) This means nothing because the Litvak did not fathom the true corrupt agenda and consequence of the meeting.

Am I leaving anything out?

Anonymous said...

as far as lakewood goes, nobody cares a "ki who ze" about chabad, except during chol hamoed trips, in order to find a minyan or a succah in a chabad house....,
but you guys don't just understand litvaks or lubavitchers....
a litvak can smile at you, drink tea with you, "red in lernen" with you, come yo your simchas, borrow money from you and even pay it back, but at the end when they give you that big hug and "kush" the knife in the back will be there........
Why do litvaks hate Lubavitch ? becasue Lubavitchers are litvaks !!!
ve'hamayvin yovin

Ben Teyreh said...

Anon 9:45

You hit the nail on the head!!!

Friendly Anonymous said...

It's a clear statement in Pirkei Ovos: first you need "Ohev es habriyos" (as shown in the video) and ersht then can there be the second part "umekarvon latorah"

yehupitz said...

FA just reminded me of a story:

I once gave a talk in which I pointed out that Kiruv, or the mitzvah of Tochacha is a function of Ahavas Yisroel. I.e. I stated that V'Ahavta L'reyacha Kamocha is a necessary pre-condition to engaging in Kiruv. An Aish Rabbi from the region was present and got very upset that I was undermining his Aish message. (He had spoken before me.) I told him that I didn't think I had done that.

He argued that people would conclude from my message that if they are not into Ahavas Yisroel they would justify not getting involved in Kiruv.

I'm not backhandedly criticizing. Just sharing the experience.

Anonymous said...

rbp never got along w remms

Reality Check said...

The very first comment above is by one who not only hasn't got the guts to put his name to a pashkvil- but is a thief as well by plagiarizing by means of cut-and-paste a comment made on Bechadrei Chareidim. He can't even think for himself, and that shows just once more why strict moderation is required.

Isaac Balbin said...

Yossle wrote ... "Kook"

You've automatically disqualified yourself. Suggest you go to his Kever and ask Mechila. I can guarantee you that Maran would not be happy with a) that you were pogeia the kavod of Maran's mesader kiddushin, and b) ignored Maran's recent pashkevil about such websites.

יוסף דוב said...

עס האט מיך געווונדערט מקדמת דנא - ווי קאן עס זיין אז געוויסע פארשוינען קאנען מיינען אז מ'וועט זיי באלוינען פאר דברי מחלוקת און שנאה. ווען יעדער נארמאלער מענטש פרייט זיך זיינדיק ווי די אמתע אוהבי ישראל די גאונים הרב אהרן ליב און ר' בערל שליט"א צעשטערן און פארניכטן די אלטע מחלוקתן, צום גרויסן באדויערן ס'פאראן נאך מאנכע וואס מיינען אז מיט פארשפרייטן שנאה אויפן אינטערנעץ דאס יידישע פאלק וועט געהאלפן ווערן.כאפט זיך אויף!

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...

!ר' יוסף דוב

אזא פארגעניגן אייך צו זעהן נאך אזא לאנגע צייט
א דאנק פאר די ווארעמע ווערטער

יוסף דוב said...

א שיינעם דאנק פארן ווארעמען "ברוך הבא". איך ווינטש אונדז ביידן אז מיר זאלן באגריסן איינער דעם צווייטן ביי בעסערע אומשטענדן. זאל דאס ליכט פון חנוכה אונדז באלייכטן און באגייסטערן מיט דעם ליכט פון אהבת ישראל און אחדות ישראל אן קיין שום אויסנאם!

Ralph said...

Yehupitz,
To many "I" in your,kind of pointless story.Quoting yourself is also a no-no,if you want people to take you seriously.

Chaim Harvarder said...

Isaac balbin, having noticed from your postings all over it seems that you are one of the relics - 'chassidim' of R Kook.

Sorry old chap but you are fighting a losing battle. The fact that most of the gedolim of the previous generations were vehemently against him (really strong "Yemach-shmoy language) obviously meant and means a lot. And today - the talmidim and children of those greats who did accept/admire him - are also on the anti-Kook side. All his books - not only hashkafa (which even the Chazon Ish banned) are belo yeroeh velo yimotzeh in homes and yeshivos of ALL charedi Jews.

And seeing the results and what has become from most of his talmidim and followers - just shows that the anti-Kook gedolim were SO right..

An Ailemesher said...

Just remember that R. Yoel was the main cause of the moshichist movement and a source of the problems that Lubavitch has with other Hareidim. All these meetings can not erase that.

snag said...

Hirshel, why are you and other Lubavitchers so eager to get acceptance from the snags anyway???

Having viewed and listened to the recordings with the chayzer and RALS and RBDP, 1) the quality of them leaves much to be desired, 2)the evidence doesn't support what you are promoting, the notion that there suddenly been a sea-change in attitude of the Litvishe velt to Lubavitch. The meeting with RBDP was just a reunion of old Yeshiva chaveirim, old classmates basically. As was stated previously, RALS didn't even know who he was presented with. Nothing much happened there. 3) Both events show the beautiful ahavas Yisroel and varemkeit of the snag leaders. Greater ahavas Yisroel than one sees by certain others. Those gedaylim were used, but still they were polite toward those who used them.

Bottom line - your whole pshetl here is a pilpul shel hevel, wishful thinking, you wish there was such a change, but it hasn't happened. Isolated incidents under special circumstances, do not a seas change make.

Friendly Anonymous said...

Ailem,

something happened in the interim that changed his mind.

snag said...

Hirshel, I just heard once again, on the Dov Hikind show, R. Anchelle Perl of Lubavitch in Mineola, Long Island, is promoting his telethon, and as part of it, a latke eating contest.

What a chillul Hashem.

Promoting a contest that golorifies fresserai and bizoyon ochlin, and which is not healthy for people to stuff themselves with food rapidly. Is this Chassidus??? What would the Rebbe have said??

An Ailemesher said...

Yes something happened that every one else knew would happen, except for R. Yoel and all other ziknei chabad. He and they acted irresponsibly and should be held accountable for the tragic results. As Rav Shach appropriately called them, "people without achrayus".

avremel said...

What happened in Chabad in the last generation is an unbelievable and fascinating story:On the one hand an amazing rebirth of a chassidus, which, though coming from a glorious past was on the ropes.Many followers had been lost to all the social upheavals,assimilation,Communist regimes .Additionally many with a Lubavitch past had become religous Zionists or sent their children to regular yeshivas.770 hardly had a minyan in the early '40's.Lubavitch, especially under the charismatic leadership of the late Rebbe managed to make a come back,attract wayward Lubavitchers from other yeshivos back to Chabad,turn Hungarians into Lubavitchers and bring in many others thru outreach.Numerous shluchim were sent out worldwide.
This is the pretty side.
The other side was the increasingly growing cult of personality aroung the Rebbe culminating with the Rebbe being announced as Moshiach while alive, and now with the Meshichist movement very loud and in your face about the Rebbe being alive and preaching a second coming.

anon3 said...

"Hirshel, I just heard once again, on the Dov Hikind show, R. Anchelle Perl of Lubavitch in Mineola, Long Island, is promoting his telethon, and as part of it, a latke eating contest.

What a chillul Hashem."

Of course the recent Agudah fress fest in the presence and participation of the Moetzes and other "gedailim" is a kiddush Hashem.

anon3 said...

Amongst the many "vile and pernicious" crimes that Lubavitch is accused of by it's detractors is it's lack of shaychus to the so called "Torah world".Now somebody comes along and tries to bridge that gap iz oichet nisht gut.It's some sort of evil conspiracy hatched by the "elders of Chabad" in the basement of that "den of iniquity", 770.

Isaac Balbin said...

Chaim Harvarder:

you are one of the relics - 'chassidim' of R Kook

I wish!

PS. I'd rather go with Rav Shlomo Zalman's views on such matters than the warped revisionists who don't come to his ankles in tzidkus and yiras shomayim and dare drop his title. אוי להם

An Ailemesher said...

Rav Kook Zt"l was one of the greatest gedolim in his generation. Esteemed by the Gerrer Rebbe, R. Issur Zalman and many other gedolim. Was even respected by such kanoim as the Rayat"z of Lubavitch, who visited him in 1929, and the Brisker Rov, who wrote respectful letters to him. One of the biggest poskim in the world, great mekubal, boki in chassidus, mussar, and chakira. Esteemed in this generation by R. Shloma Zalman Aurbach and Rav Elyashiv. Even the Chazon Ish was OK with his non-hashkafa writings. The kanoim like the Minchas Elazar and the Satmerer Rov were in the minority.

How the kanoim, like R. Amram Blau and others like, who had non of the qualities mentioned above, managed to hijack world opinion and make him persona non grata in the Torah world is one of the great mysteries of history. (I am not including the gedolim like the Satmerer Rov, etc.). It's time to rectify this injustice, and put the am ho'oratzim in their place.

schneur said...

In pre War Lita there were no Marans who were infalliable.
Indeed there were 2 great Tora sages above all (Reb Chaim Eyzer, Chofetz Chaim ) but they led not dictated. Gedolim like the Marcheses and Rav Leib Poupko( many more also belonged to the mizrachi). Reb Leib aws president of the mizrachi in Poland ? Did he lack daas Tore too ? They also led with love not with hate, gaave and disdain. Both Reb Chaim Eyzer and the Chofetz Chaim cooperated with the Rayaatz and they both saw the important role Chabad people and bachurim played in the Kressy (that part of Lithuanian which became Poland after the First World war) I am sure there were rabbonim who still disliked Chabad and I am not bothered by that as long as the hatred did not become public policy. There were many Chabad people who disliked the Misnagdim too.The vaad hayeshivas had issues too as many Chabad people thought they discriminated against Tomche Tmimmim.But there was no public policy against Chabad.
Today its become public policy to hate Chabad in the israeli yeshivas. Instead of cooperating with chabad the yeshiva world have become toadies of Satmar with the roshim showing up at 21 Kislev celebrations, and their students in Israel saying the VaaYalle Moshe was correct. Tell me was this the psoition of any of the litvishe roshim before or after the war ? Did Rav Moshe attend the 21 Kislev parties ?For the alst 4 weeks DER YID has continued blasting Chabad and the Rebbe. Is that acceptable ?

Truth be told in my opinion Chabad shares in this blame , but why should we be angry at the meeting of Reb Yale and the roshe yeshivas its a fine moment.
Just imagine if the Rebbe came to israel in 1990 do you doubt that most so called Lithuanian roshe yeshiva except for the Degel leader would want to talk to the Rebbe in lernen and in sichos chulin ?
Its time to think peace and forget the nonsense of the 1980's with the Aguda, Degel Chabad wars.
Finally I repeat my mantra and i know it sounds dumb, its time for Chabad to provide itself with serious official spiritual leadership. Let the chassidus be led by people everyone can respect like the current crop of leaders in Breslev.
Lets face it the shluchim and their understudies need spiritual leadership, they need chizzuk , they also need halachic guidance and guidance on a whole range of issues Many are young and have little experience and less Tore knowledge. Chabad needs to place a giant(s) at their helm..CH needs leadership and its time for Chabad to free itself from the hold of askanim and other machers.They have their place obviously but Chabad needs spiritual leadershp.

shelo asani charedi said...

Only by the hats does a picture of two old men drinking tea and talking Torah turn into a sectarian brawl. Even Moslems need a better excuse than that.

Hirshel, when will you learn that peace is a no-no in pre-Moshiach Judaism. No matter how many posts about reconciliation you write, all the various splinter sects have to treat each other like amalek and have milchemes Hashem midor dor.

Anonymous said...

Schneour,
I see you are an incurable optimist!
There will never ever be a new Rebbe in Chabad Lubavitch.
I've been around the block many times and was one of the few youngsters to roam 770 in the early fourties so I know the cast.Hey, I knew Barry back than quite well, though he was older than me.Whatever the case Lubavitch will never have a new rebbe.

Anonymous said...

So Chozer doesn't mean that he was chozer b'teshuvah by visiting Ponevezh?

Anonymous said...

Shneur
"For the alst 4 weeks DER YID has continued blasting Chabad and the Rebbe?
that rag is so irrelevant these days, its only purpose today is the bury the other Titelbaum brother. the chabad bashing is just Minhag a Avoisinu Beyidani

Anonymous said...

Shneur
if you talking Breslov they have no giants, who? kramer? Koeneg? Shick?

Anonymous said...

First Anon
"כידוע, הסיבה לסירוב העיקש של ´הגאון´ להפגש עם בעל התניא"
you write Keydoa.
where exactly is that theory famous?

Anonymous said...

if someone has time they can write a transcript of the story of how the AR almost met the VG as told to R Leibl Shaprio, by R YB Soleveichik.... was on living torah some time ago

mercaz@mercaz.org said...

kol haposel bmumo posel
YOSSELE, everyone is marar R, except for "kook"
who are you, are you even worthy of having a daeh on daas torah.
your lack of derech eret, not mentioning kovod hatorah, makes everything you represent
muktza machmas miuss.
do tshuva

Anonymous said...

a general comment about this blog re some of the taynes mentioned above:

it is true that hirsh tzig started this blog, kilshoynoy: "to provide a counter opinion to the Chabad bashing that is so prevalent in blogosphere." here tzig was referring primarily to the now-extinct blog by "tzemach atlas" called "mentalbog." (in fact, this blog used to be called "anti-tzemach.")

in a way, tzig can shray "didan notzach," for "tzemach" (aka "ben") did pack up his site & went on to other, "more evolved" endeavors (see: benaltas.com) [i don't think failedmessiah.com fits this description, since it attacks all chareidim, chasidim & misnagdim alike.]

but, as we know bisheym reb yoilish (v'yoel moishe): "a moised farmacht men nisht." (this is also why NATO still continues after the fall of the USSR.) so even though the prime siboh of this blog was botel, the march still goes on to (1) defend chabad from all hisnagdus, & (2) to be mefarsem the ma'ylos & shtoltzkayt of lubavitch.

perhaps it is high time for the lakewooders to create their own "counter opinion" blog to repond to those who defame RAK, moron, ukadoyme.

BTW, in the AR's letter about his near-visit to the VG he write that "v'dofaknu al daloysoy PA'AMAYIM" -- hence RYKs visiting the litvishe PA'AMAYIM.

also, why is there no footage of RYKs visits to the chasidim (reb yisroelzke of viznitz et al.)?

-- ZoroIslamoYid

hahaha said...

davka in chabad where they stress watching what we eat and what enters our body the latke fresseray is sickening. perhaps if there was a rebbe around as schneur always wishes the shluchim would not make such parties. halevai.

a pushiter yid from BS said...

I am not a lubavicher but I just can't believe there are still lakewooders out there who don't realize the big shtink RLS did to all of them.
the only reason most gedolim didn't come out against him was because they were afraid that he would do to them what he did to R' Michel, R' Greineman, R' dovid povarski, R' shimshon pinkus, etc.
besides a few hot heads in olam hatora, you don't see anyone identifying with maran's shita.
so why not accept happily what these RY are trying to do, and 'vish dich up' from the blota of the last 21 years.

Anonymous said...

a pushiter yid:

you are FULL of bs.