There are times when politics or other reasons create strange bedfellows. Nothing has proven that point more than the case of PETA and all that's evil in this world VS. the Rubashkin family, a symbol of good. We've spoken here often about how Pinchus Lipschutz of the Yated has been at the forefront - quite literally - of the effort to save SMRubashkin from years in a federal penitentiary. You might even say that he's been more vocal, helpful and supportive than many of his co-Chassidim members, if you know what I mean. Besser's approach seems to be to interview Sholom Mordechai and show him as a family man, a chassidisher yid and a true Ba'al Chesed. Not some ruthless robber baron who also happens to throw some money around just to have his name on buildings, and Rebbes visiting his home and partaking of some of that delicious fruit heaped in huge silver bowls. I don't think Besser is a lawyer, but an approach like that using character witnesses and such, should help in the upcoming trial, and is no different than what the Tzad HaSheni is doing, namely generalizing, using stereotypes and other such means of winning a conviction in the court of public opinion.
You might say Postville will be Judenrein - as far as institutions and families go - once the Friedman regime takes over. That's sad. I'm sure some of the locals would like that, despite the knock on their economy. Gone is the noble cause, and say hello to business as usual. Shochtim flying back and forth, away from their families all week. In Mifflintown the trip is done by car, and the terrible storms in the NorthEast are few and far between. So the shochtim to Empire - and now Scranton - are pretty much guaranteed to be back on the job. But what happens when they get those nasty storms in the Midwest and the Shochtim are stuck in Chicago or in Minneapolis waiting two days for the runways to be operational again? This does not bode well for the Kosher meat and poultry consumer. Was that part of the buying decisions for the Friedmans? Then again, he's made money - and still is - hand over fist, while I worry about the grocery bill come Thursday... So I guess he MUST know what he's doing. Also, the zechus of having his name of BME here in Monsey, and the zechus of having his name on the Oz VeHodor Gemoros, will SURELY stand at his side and help him in any future ventures, no?
But one thing's for sure: Gone is the ideal of getting kosher meat and poultry to the consumer at a very reasonable price. It's all business from hereon in. Oz VeHodor isn't cheap and neither will this. It's a challenge, a game, something you do on a whim because life is boring just counting money, and the nursing homes, plastic and real estate businesses are tough on a man. You need new and exciting things. So you decide it would be fun to get your hands dirty and get into the chicken business. The fact that he never held an uncooked piece of chicken in his manicured hand makes no difference. He's got the Midas touch, he's a Magyar ember, he knows how to make Kesh-Gelt (Peynz) like in di alte heim. So why not makes some serious cash on the backs of the masses? We've talked about this before. Prices are through the roof. The other companies will be only too happy to keep them that way now that Rubashkin is out of the picture. And the fools will think that they're getting better and more kosher meat, so they'll pay the crazy prices. Hahahaha. Bekitzer, we're all in for it.
Did I go too far in projecting all kinds of terrible things for the future of Kosher meat? maybe. After all, I don't know the Friedmans, I don't REALLY know what the Rubashkins did or didn't do, and I have no idea what anybody's plans are for Postville and its Jews. But I have feelings too. Just like every other 2-bit mayvin out there, and I have just as much right to my opinions and projections as they do. This being Chodesh Elul even in the Chabad calendar, I do ask mechillah if I offended anybody or was Motzi Shem Ra on any particular family, but from the interviews that HF gave to the Haredi press after his purchase of Agri it seemed liked he'll do everything he can to uproot any remnant of Rubashkin or what he built with his sweat and tears. Not that it should come as a surprise; he doesn't see things any different than any other shlacht-hoyz, they don't build shtetlach, neither does he. But here there was one, why the need to change things?
In the meantime, please daven for Sholom Mordechai HaLevi ben Rivke....
64 comments:
the world has changed you don't buy a cow when you need a glass of milk, and you don't build a shtetel to slaughter a cow,
chesed is in essence unpractical but a business where the consumer foots the bill you have to be practical
fair enough
but here, I would say, the consumer gets savings, since Shochtim live there and can produce more, since they're traveling 2 days a week, etc.
Your irrational hatred towards anything ungarische is quite puzzling. perhaps a psychoanalysis would conclude your decision to turn your back on your own kind and join chabad could only be described as self loathing. The mere fact you became a chbadsker, in and of itself is not the problem, however when coupled with the rest of your criticisms and attacks against anything smacking of your peeps is the clincher. Truly sad.
{married to a minkatcher}
you're wrong, my friend. I bear no hatred to the Ungarische. Maybe to these types, but not to the Ungarische as a whole. I love them, as a matter of fact. I'm very proud of my heritage. The Friedmans - not them in particular, just that type - are just not my type of Hungarians. Maybe it's because my ancestors were sincere G-d fearing folk...
Most Hungarians would agree with me, by the way.
and I'm not just MARRIED to a Marmureser...
I lived and breathed the culture my whole life...
Wow. I rate a double response. Must have touched on something there. Anyhoo, I am moideh that many Hungarians share a dislike for what is occuring these days amongst their kind (as my in laws ad nausem remind me about theiving rabunim, whilst asking me yet again to hide my peyes and trim my burd), but it just seems to me you take it a step beyond. I could be wrong, but that is how it feels.
PS minkatch, khist, irshave and ungvar et al are not marmuresh, but rather are considered Karpatten...
{married to a minkatcher}
I apologize about the Marmures/Sub Carpathia mixup.
Great post, twas a great article indeed. Just showed the human side to the name. Moved me and my family to tears.
The chesed thing depends on how kusher the money was in the first place.
Its easy to give money away if you stole it....
It can be said that if PETA is after you...you should watch every step and double check all paperwork is in order....
Secondly, if several of their breaches were a result of follow the rav hamachshir, why not just present the correspondence from the rav hamachshir ?
We must hate our rabbanim so much, because they are the skapegoat for all our problems.
If only he had looked up the Igres earlier and found the solution as do so many other followers of Yechi Hamelech......Vhu Yigoleinu would have saved him....
You must have missed the beautiful Mishpacha spread on Friedman a month or so ago, where, IIRC, he says that he is doing this for the most ultruistic of purposes, not unlike Rubashkin.
Legufoi shel inyon, I can feel Rubashkin's pain. I was once ticketed for speading when all the cars around me were also going over the speed limit. Anti-semitism, perhaps.
One of the reasons the KJ (oifes) shlachthoze was started was to avoid the wear and tear these shochtim endure when traveling. It harms their family life and has got to have an effect on the Shchita quality.
I read in the state of the union address at the Yortzeit Seedah that Reb Aharon is starting Gassos.
"Most Hungarians would agree with me, by the way."
Hischel - As someone proud of my Hungarian heritage (and someone how knows the Friedman family), I agree with you 100%.
BTW, Munkatsch, Chust, etc. were considered Maramoresh by everyone (except themselves). To avoid the Marmoresh "stigma" to referred to themselves at "Karpatten".
You were right all along.
The Friedman article was nice, but nothing like this one IMHO. If after reading this, you dont have a hartz for Sholom and family, there is something wrong with you.
The article doesnt say that he was right for standing up to PETA/unions, just that he did it. He clearly still thikns he's in Siberia.
Is Friedman the brother of Liebel Friedman of BP? Vedal
Whoms hasgocha is friedman planing ?
If he will not be cheaper, then who needs him? there is enough high cost chicken in the market?
All the gedolim will be on his side, as we all remember the big chanufa event for oiz vehodar in Tel aviv a year or so again,it made no sense that all gedolim, were gathered for a simple event of a shas printing. Berman Wagschal kaftor etc.. are reprinting shas for years and its a non event, just because it had the friedman name every godul schlepped to the event on 4 legs. it was a event of Bizoan Hatorah
What is the root of all of this Karpatten hatred toward Marmoresh?
My co-worker from Munkatch tells me that they used to say: "Poland should go up in flames and Marmaresh should choke on the smoke".
Ak
is Karpatten a lesser insult then Marmoreash
Taking about bizoyon hatorah, what do you think of the Dirshu fellow lecturing in public to the gedolim on the proper derech halimud etc?. Very sad in my eyes.
Karpaten people where considered ignorant , Marmuroshe, "Grub".
grub and learned, or grub and ignorant too?
and why the difference if they were so close to each other in some cases?
All a bunch of onion farmers!
who farmed onions, the Karpatter or Marmuresher?
From Wikipedia:
Maramureş (in Romanian; Hungarian: Máramaros; Latin: Marmatia; Ukrainian: Мармарощина / Marmaroshchyna, Мараморщина / Maramorshchyna, Марамуреш / Maramuresh; Yiddish: מאַראַמאָראָש (maramurush)) is a geographical, historical and ethno-cultural region in northern Transylvania, along the upper Tisza River consisting in the Maramureş Depression and surrounding mountains, part of the north-eastern Carpathians.
The territory in its southern section is now part of Maramureş County in northern Romania; its northern section is part of Zakarpattia Oblast of western Ukraine.
The Zakarpattia Oblast (there are names in other languages) is an administrative oblast (province) located in southwestern Ukraine. Its administrative center is the city of Uzhhorod. Other major cities within the oblast include Mukachevo, Khust, Berehove and Chop which is home to railroad transport infrastructure.
I think that the difference in usage between Maramuresh and "Karpetten" is Post WWI, depending on which side of the Romania / Czechoslovakia border you were. But pre-WWI, it was definitely all Maramuresh.
Proudly from Zibenbergen - AK
Upon further Wikipedia research, it appears that married to minkatcher may be partly right. It seems taht only the Eastern part of Zakarpattia Oblast was part of historic Maramoresh. Munkatch and Ungvar might have dodged this bullet. Chust is definitely part of Maramoresh.
But in Zibenbergen (to the south), it was all considered Maramoresh.
BTW, there is the famous story of the father in Maramoresh who took his son to a Ruv to farher on hilchos brachos. The Ruv asked the boy what Brocho you make on Bread.
The boy answered excitedly "Shehakol"! (they ate corn bread excpt on Shabbos).
no, he answered
ס'ווענט זיך ווען, שבת יו"ט צו אין דער וואכן
.......
Hirschel - I stand corrected. I assume I saw the story in the same place you did. So you have a better memory than I do.
Your version is better anyways!
if you've gotta mess with the hungarians at least do it for laughs and dont mock real peoople just do it the way your old friend Shygetz does.
his stuff is way out of line but he gets the message across with his mishegoss
Shygets is back in Russia
Why is it that the Hungarian gene is more dominant than others, and is still strong even after three generations?
Why is it that the female gene is more dominant that if you have a Hungarian woman marry a regular fellow, the kids come out Hungarian?
How come all the good, gentel, congeneal, decent, non-onstantatious Hunks are embaressed of their heritage?
Why do the non-Hungarian Hungarians always insist that they are the true Hungarians?
Fech?
the shygetz is back in russia for two or three years i think but he still writes his creedmoor blog from there. hes israeli or european originally i think and his hungarian shtick is fake.
shygetsfan,
The Shaigetz is an American BT who started out becoming frum outside Lubavitch and then became Lubavitch then went to other frum groups then came cack to Lubavitch.
Needless to say the whole shtick is an attempt at humour.
He actually signs his names to comments like he used to do here sometimes but I won't out him ,though I don't think he minds.
Maybe he''ll post here?
Munkatch and Ungvar were never part of Maramuresh.
Chust is in Maramuresh but at the edge. So when the Munkatcher Ruv claimed 'eser glilos' as part of his Rebbe Meir Baal Haness empire (or emirate) it included nearby Chust.
Yes and Freidman I don't know him but his public persona makes him "un" Hugarian I agree with Tzig.
The reason why real Hungarian culture and feel is fast becoming a distant memory, is only because the extreme humility of the remnant Oberlandishe heimishe pashtus yidden survivors of WW2.
Who let themselves to be taken over from one side by the Satmars and their other chasidic co-horts. And from the other side by Yeshivish Litvish types who became for the Oberlanders an alternative to the chasidishe.
Now they are left with no one to pass on the old austere dignity of of humble but fierce ashkenazic yiddishkeit.
חבל
Yosef 718
תלמיד לשעבר ישיבת נייטרא
back when some bochorim were not ashamed to shave and daven with talisim. while speaking a heimisher yiddish.
just wrote to him. he told me everything. shygetz was actually frie for many years because of what the kinds of people he makes fun of did to him and those people were chabad he never went to any groups between leaveing and coming back. my friend was sure he was eurpean because shygetz writes perfect french to him but i guess hes wrong. i asked him and ur right he is american. he doesnt mind people knowing who he is but he has serious online stuff in his real name (i. s.) and he doesnt want the search engines to index his creedmore mishegoss on his name thats all.
If der shygatz doesnt want search engines to to index on his name, why are you revealing his initials? besides, anyone who views the jewish blogosphere enough can see his posts under his true name...
Truth is that although there are exceptions:
Hungarians - cannot take criticism and all the present day Hungarian rabbanim are TL and apologists for their fat balabatish balabatim. They are horse thieves who give tzedaka and do chesed to overcome their guilt for being unerlech and money hungary.....why are there such big chandeliers in Williamsburg ? because they are too heavy to wear as earings....its all about showing off for yenem....Other than Satmar (such as Biker Choilim) they are like the Chaside (Stalk) all their chesed is for their friends, like a mutual help club...
Polisher - are cold and harsh...they criticize each other and themselves to the extent they are truthful but farbisn. Look at polisher chassidus and the ganavim among them are Hungarians....
Galizianers - are self critical but varem and hartzig. They do chesed for strangers...
Russians have the harshness of poilishers but their criticism is based on hate...not honesty....they just hate everybody.....
I am surprised nobody caught the mistake that we do not give titles when we daven for someone or give a kvitel so the "halevi" should be removed and should read shalom mordechai be rivke (unless minhag chabad is this way then I stay corrected)
"You might even say that he's been more vocal, helpful and supportive than many of his co-Chassidim members,"
The Tzig on Pinchas Lipshutz.
"You might even say"
Quit being an ingrate.The fact is that Lipshutz has done more for Rubashkin than all of the Lubabs combined.
Sorry i meant this one
צבי28 דו שטעלסט אן דעם פנים פון א תם און שטויסט ווי א מועד.
דער "מענה טיפש" וואס דו רופסט אן "ספר", איז בכלל נישט יעצט "ערשינען", אז דו נויטיגסט זיך פשוט צו וויסן אויב ער איז "גערעכט"..
לאמיר אפען אויסשמועסן, דיין ציל דא איז צו טשעפען די סאטמאר'ער חסידים, אז מען האט אפגעפרעגט דעם ויואל משה. איך גיי מיך נישט יעצט אננעמען פארן ספר ויואל משה, עס נויטיגט זיך נישט אין מיין פארטיידיגונג, און איך פארשטיי דיין ווייטאג צוצוקוקן וויאזוי פאר בלויז עטליכע טעג צוריק האבן טויזנטער טויזנטער אידן איבער די גארער וועלט געטאנצן און געפייערט דעם יום ההצלה אין וועלכן דער סאטמאר'ער רבי בעל דברי יואל זי"ע איז געראטעוועט געווארן.
דער ויואל משה איז בכלל נישט "אפגעפרעגט", דער ויואל משה האט אפגעראטעוועט טויזנטער אידן פון נישט נאכטאנצן דעם עגל הציוני.
זייט די שרעקליכע טראגעדיע אין אינדיע ביזסטו געפערליך ברוגז אויף חסידי סאטמאר, פארוואס זיי האבן נישט אנערקענט אז דער דרך פון ארויסשיקן בחורים, מיידלעך און יונגעלייט אויף נאנטע און ווייטע מדינות, אויסגעמישט צווישן טויזנטער גוים, דאס איז דער דרך אשר ילכון בה.
דעם נאציאנאלן בענעפיט האט כאטש ליובאוויטש געוואלט אפלעקן פון די טראגעדיע אז די וועלט זאל איינזען ווי וויכטיג ס'איז צו האבן שליחים און אינדיע, טשיינע, וויעטנאם וכו'.
איך זאג דיר אפען מיר פארשטייען דאס נישט!!! דער שרייבער פון די שורות האט פארגאסן טרערן צוליב די ביטערע טראגעדיע, אבער עס האט מיר געגריצלט אין די אויערן אז מען פלאנט צו שיקן דעם קליינעם משה'לען ווייטער קיין אינדיע.
דער גאנצער כלל ישראל האט מער באוויינט די טייערע נפשות פון משפחת האלצבערג ווי ליובאוויטש אליין, די גרעסטע דאגה וואס ליובאוויטש האט ארויסגעברענגט איז געווען אז די "פעולות חב"ד", זאלן נישט געשטערט ווערן אין אינדיע, דאס איז נאך א גרעסערער פראבלעם ווי די ביטערע טראגעדיע ווען עס זענען פארשניטן געווארן נפשות יקרות מישראל.
אמת אז מענטשן וואס פארן ארום איבער די וועלט האבן הנאה פון די בתי חב"ד, אבער עס ווערט נאכנישט ריכטיג וועגן דעם, אידן טארן זיך נישט געפונען אין מקומות סכנה, ספעציעל ווען מען ווייסט אז זיי זענען א צילפונקט פאר טעראריסטן!
און עס דעקט אויך נישט אויף די אנדערע התגרות באומות'ער וואס חב"ד פירט אן, סיי אין ארץ ישראל און סיי און חוץ לארץ.
און כדי צו ענדיגן מעין הפתיחה, וויל איך דיר טאקע דערמאנען, טאקע אין גייסט פון כ"א כסלו, אז טראץ דער סאטמאר'ער רב האט נישט געשיקט בחורים מיט מיידלעך טיילן לאטקעס אין טיימס סקווער, האט ער אבער יא אויפגעשטעלט טויזטנער אידן שומרי תורה ומצות מדקדקים בקלה כבחמורה.
דדווח על תוכן פוגעני
Thanks for the information, until now I thought Rubashkin were buisnessmen , now you informed me they are actually askanim who are osek bezorchei zibbur.Their chief goal was providing kosher meat , wow I should have asked for some free cholent meat from them if I only knew their true kavanos. What else would you like me to believe.
About Postville, don't blame Mr, Friedman ,put the blame on the shoulders of the chashuve family who started the yishuv there.
As your Rebbe told Yankev Katz at a seder one year "Its a free country". Shochetim can live wherever they want to, be it Postville, Chicago, (which has a large Charedi community) Twin Cities, or many like to live in Brooklyn or Monsey. Why don't Anash from Ch move out to Postville and give chizzuk to their brothers.
Finally we live in a malchus shel Chesed, but the US has codes and laws if those laws are flagrently violated, those who do so are punished that includes Blacks and Charedi Jews as well.
In Lita we used to saty vi men bett sich oyset , azey shloft men, , how you sleep depends on how you make your bed - That is obviously an adage the Rubashkins never heard in Nevel.
Schneur
it's a shame you never wqlked into Crown Restaurant and "asked" for a meal... Mrs. R would have given you a meal fit for a king at no charge.
Schneur-
If you read the article, they arent saying that they didnt make mistakes or money. They made both. They are saying that these are real people with real families who need real rachamim. You are an arrogant slob.
Anonymous thanks for the "portzia " of Ahavas Israel ,Can someone discuss an issue without name calling ? But since you use the word arrogant , that word is more applicable to the owners of Aaron's Best and their reaction to events leading up to the Federal raid. I am just amazed that with such Ahavas Israel you are not "shturming' for the Madoff family as well - they too are real people with real issues and they do need rachmanus. , I feel sorry for the people in Postville, not for the Rubashkins who obviously made a lot of money in their business. And probably still have a lot of assets,
As far as free food in their restaurant ," lo meduvshokh velo meukzach," don;t give away free food and don't violate the laws of the U.S.
Please answer me clearly -- is a Jew permited to violate US laws ? You write about Postville with such romantic ferver what about the Chabad crime spree years ago.
Why not face it the Postville experiment was a failure and move on.
Rather than collect money for the R family , the distinguished publisher should start a fund to assist the Jews of Postville in relocating.
Rubashkin's illegalities seem to be not unusual accross the meatpacking industry. It is teherfore hard to escape the conclusion that his being singled out for prosecution is due to anti-semitism, union-activism, animal-protectionism, whatever, and to that extent, he has the sympathy of all Jewish union bashing steak lovers.
If Tyson and all other meatpackers only used union members who were U.S. citizens, you would have a point. Fact is, they don't.
Friendly,
What vodka did u drink?
"If Tyson and all other meatpackers only used union members who were U.S. citizens, you would have a point. Fact is, they don't."
"Fact is they don't"
And how do you know this "fact"
Rubashkins brought upon themselves this whole mess much like the big "chacuhmem" from Skver who after involving the whole Orthodox community in their folly, claiming anti-semitism, lost the case, sent people to jail in nuch gegessen farshinkeneh fish by paying everything back, plus a 10 million $ fine!
he knows this fact because those towns in the South where they operate are full of illegals, and for one thing only, to work in those plants!!!
There have been ceremonial raids there too, but you must've been doing something important when that happened, like reading Yeshiva World, or something.
We have guys here who believe in conspiracies.
Wonderful!
Small question:If Rubashkin and co knew how anti-semitic the Goverment is why were they not extra careful to follow the law,eh?
TheFeds are just as "anti-semitic" as the feds in NY prosecuting Skver, almost every one involved in the prosecution was a yid starting from Mary Joe White the HEAD PROSECUTOR/dA.
Nice try, guys
"Rubashkin's illegalities seem to be not unusual accross the meatpacking industry."
This is true universally. Meatpacking has become completely dependent upon cheap, illegal labor to get around the added costs of union wages, workman's comp. insurance, OSHA compliance, etc. Nobody will to pay $10/lb for treif steak and those compliance costs will kill their businesses. If you think Agri. was singularly evil the truth is that they barely held a candle to what goes on at Smithfield, Tyson, Hudson, or other mainstream packers.
"It is teherfore hard to escape the conclusion that his being singled out for prosecution is due to anti-semitism, union-activism, animal-protectionism, whatever, and to that extent, he has the sympathy of all Jewish union bashing steak lovers."
SMR was singled out by the "labor activists" at the Fahrverts who could not give a rats patootie what actually happens to actual workers. He was similarly targeted by the magen tzedek people who used PETA as a foil to force their own version of "kashrut" into the lexicon. Their agendas were successfully fulfilled; consequences to Postville, its workers and institutions and to RSMR in particular be d@mned!
"Small question:If Rubashkin and co knew how anti-semitic the Goverment is why were they not extra careful to follow the law,eh?"
The Government is not anti-semetic. In fact, the Government is pretty blind. They see behavior brought to their attention that does not "shtim" with chapter, verse and letter as written in the CFR and they bring down the force of the bureaucracy. It just so happens that meatpacking is what you might call "target rich" for opportunities for any number of alphabet-soup federal agencies to prove their worth to the taxpayers. Accordingly, the Fahrvertz, PETA and Magen Tzedek people making noise will certainly motivate the relevant bureaucrats into full-on "we've gotta protect our phoney-baloney jobs" mode.
Everyone is being "picked on"!
The schechoirem because they are tinkel
Madoff,vahl er iz a yid
Rubashkin because theY are Lubab
The Tzig cuz he is Hungarian.
Enough with this dreque
Itzik S
cr ,
So now you are the anti-semite, blaming Jews for Rubashniks downfall?
Give it up guys
This type of deluded defense is going to nail rubashkins rear end to the floor in a federal "Hilton"
"So now you are the anti-semite, blaming Jews for Rubashniks downfall?"
Do you deny that all the noise and finger pointing made by the heterodox jewish groups I mention played a role in getting the Feds' attention? Do you really think that the mercurial paper-pushers were going to act on their own accord? Don't be so naive. Things went down exactly as Rabbi Morris Allen and Nathaniel Popper envisioned; the evil "shonda", RSMR, got canned. The unintended side-effects on the Postville community and on the kosher-keeping public at large are just the cost of doing their holy work.
schneur
"I feel sorry for the people in Postville, not for the Rubashkins who obviously made a lot of money in their business
I know for a fact they never made too much money,
and if you don't see a difference between Madoff and Rubashkin you need your head checked.
isn't Bauer of Nitra still shaved and heimish
"I am surprised nobody caught the mistake that we do not give titles when we daven for someone or give a kvitel so the "halevi" should be removed and should read shalom mordechai be rivke (unless minhag chabad is this way then I stay corrected)"
Many years ago when me and my family had a yechidus with the Rebbe ,as was customary,I wrote a kvitel to the Rebbe signing my name ploni ben-ploni and then my family name without writing "Halevi".Reading the kvitel the Rebbe looked up at me smilingly and with a twinkle in his eyes said "Du bist doch ah Levi.Dacht zich as "Halevi" iz mer vichtig vi-----"referring my to family name.
Arthur,
How was the vacation?
How is the hand?
Hirshel
what shocks me from all the commentators the most, is a guy like Shneur who professes to be from the old school chabad, to spew so much animosity on a Chasidisher family as the Rubashkin, whatever chasidus was and will be, Ahavas Chasidim was the essence, especialy in a Eis Tzoro, and this guy Schneur goes on with his cruel comments since day one when he was delighted with the news of Agri. Just follow his comments.
"How was the vacation?
How is the hand?"
Vacation fantastic.Hand not so fantastic.
Hope your hand gets better soon
Arthur
Git Shabes
Wow. I go away, I come back, and it's just as if I never left.
Schneur, you say lo miduvshech velo me'uktzech? Let's see: the duvshech is feeding the hungry, which I'm pretty sure the nevi'im had quite a bit to say about. I believe by you in YU they learn novi, no? But even by us, one needs only to pay attention to the haftoros, especially that of Yom Kippur, to get some idea of what a tzadeikes Mrs Rubashkin is. And what is the uktzeich of which you complain? It's alleged that the Rubashkins knowingly gave jobs to illegal immigrants. They deny it, but suppose it's true; so they broke the laws of Sdom. Sounds like more mitzvos to me. At the very least it's not an aveira. So where is the uketz of which you are so afraid, and to avoid which you'd willingly give up the dvash?
You write: "Please answer me clearly -- is a Jew permited to violate US laws ?" Fine, I will answer you clearly: YES. Of course it depends which laws. A Jew may not break the laws against murder and stealing, just as he may not murder and steal even if it happens not to be against the law. And if the US were to make a law against eating treif, a Jew would not be allowed to break it. But immigration laws? Why on earth should a Jew (or anyone else) not break them? What binding power do they have? Where in Shulchon Oruch is it written that one must not give someone a job, just because he was born on the wrong side of an arbitrary line? That sounds like a law of Sdom to me. America may indeed be a malchus shel chesed; how does that give its laws any more force than those of such non-chessed malchiyos as the USSR or Sdom itself?
The truth is, and this gives "Anonymous" of 6:21:00 PM his answer as well, that Schneur, like so many in that strange cult known as "modern orthodox", serves the avoda zoro of the "law of the land". They have taken a technical rule in dinei momonos, deliberately mistranslated it for the benefit of those who don't know Aramish, and then, pretending it's some sort of moral principle, they've elevated it to be one of the ani maamins, if not the aseres hadibros. Then they have a problem: what do they do with all the Jewish heroes who defied the laws of their lands? So they came up with a new concept, which is unheard of in any Jewish source: malchus shel chesed. Or, America iz andersh. In the USSR or Nazi Germany the laws are not binding, but in America they are, because America is so good to us. It's very nice that America is indeed so good to us, but how does that change the halocho? How does that make what would be muttor in Russia, ossur in America?
You want to really disturb one of these MO dino demalchuso worshipers? Here's a question for you Schneur: Here in your malchus shel chesed there used to be a law called the Fugitive Slave Act. Do you think Orthodox Jews were obligated by the Torah to obey that law? Or did the USA only become a malchus shel chesed in 1865?
For those without the time or gedult to read that whole megilah, here is the tamtzis: I am still waiting for anyone to show me that se'if in Shulchon Oruch that says אסור לעבור על חוקי המלכות, or מצוה לקיים חוקי המלכות. Anything that places either a positive or a negative obligation on a Jew to keep the law. As far as I know, no such se'if exists.
Either this betrays ignorance or willful obtuseness:
"...immigration laws? Why on earth should a Jew (or anyone else) not break them? What binding power do they have? Where in Shulchon Oruch is it written that one must not give someone a job, just because he was born on the wrong side of an arbitrary line? That sounds like a law of Sdom to me."
Well, what purpose do you think is served by Immigration Law? Just to give bureaucrats a job, title and career path? Their purpose is to secure the borders of our nation; to assure that those who come here do so with constructive intent. By circumventing immmigration law you are undermining border security. You are, in effect, making it possible for individuals to enter and live here whose intentions could be harmful. That is, in my estimation, Mirud beMalchus (rebelling against the king)! S'dom or not (and I think that comparison is absurd) that is a befeirushe issur.
"did the USA only become a malchus shel chesed in 1865?"
Try 1965 with the passage of the Civil Rights Act. :-P
Talk about wilful obtuseness. Guarding the border is one thing. Arresting people who are peacefully working at a job in Iowa is quite another. Do you think there is any likelihood at all that a Guatemalan doing manual labor at a meat packer in Iowa, or cleaning floors at Walmart, is really an al Qaeda agent, biding his time till he's called into action? Do you think that was even a minor factor in the decision to stage the ICE raid? Do you think it figured at all in the prosecutors' decision to indict Rubashkin? Don't be silly.
US laws against hiring illegal immigrants have nothing at all to do with security. They are motivated by exactly the same thing that motivated Sdom to pass its laws — protectionism.
"Guarding the border is one thing. Arresting people who are peacefully working at a job in Iowa is quite another."
No, they are part-and-parcel of the same problem. If the incentive for and possibility of hiring illegal aliens is minimized by clamping down on lawbreaking employers the job of the border police is greatly simplified. And diverting resources to fight the millions of job seekers pouring across the border necessarily takes away from efforts to block AQ terrorists and others similar from sneaking across. And isn't it even possible for a few olive-skinned, black-haired Paki terrorists to blend in with a massive group of olive-skinned, black-haired Chicanos headed for a packing plant? Our national security depends on strong border control. Even stopping the relative (but not so insignificant) few who would do harm requires it.
"US laws against hiring illegal immigrants have nothing at all to do with security. They are motivated by exactly the same thing that motivated Sdom to pass its laws — protectionism."
I totally disagree. If you live in another country and want to come here you need to obey my country's laws upon entering; get a passport and H2B work visa and stay within the limitations thereof. Yes, the paperwork is onerous but you won't have ICE breathing down your neck, threatening to break it. Otherwise, stay in whatever cesspit of a country you call home. And if you are already here illegally go back home and enter properly. Period.
Millhouse,
You haven't been seen on Vuziznaeis in a while?
What you say about the laws regarding immigration being "Sedom" is just unbelievable, you are joking,right?
CR, simplifying the border police's job is not my business, or anyone else's. They have a job, let them do it. But remember that that job is to keep out dangerous people, not innocent workers trying to earn a living for their families.
I will concede for the purpose of this argument that anyone crossing the border illegally should be presumed dangerous, and can be shot on sight; but what has that got to do with someone who is peacefully working at a job in Iowa, not making any trouble or giving any indication of being a terrorist? How does the mere fact of his having crossed the border illegally make him more dangerous than someone who came legally (as all the 11-Sep-2001 hijackers did)?
Your second paragraph shows exactly the problem: you have not given any justification for the laws, or distinguished them in any way from those of Sedom. "It's our city, keep out. We don't care how poor you are, stay in your cesspit and starve." If you lived in some village in Guatemala, struggling to feed your wife and children, and had a chance to come to America and earn some real money, what would you do? Do you really think you'd keep out just because it was against American law, or that you should do so?
Rechnitz, I went away for a while and had limited net access, and just haven't got around to looking at VIN since my return. But no, I'm not joking. What difference do you see between America's law and Sedom's? They're both pure protectionism. "You were born on the wrong side of an arbitrary line, so tough luck."
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